Not So Much ‘New York Poor’ as ‘Pittsburgh Rich’

http://www.psmag.com/navigation/business-economics/talent-migration-work-creative-much-new-york-poor-pittsburgh-rich-82894/

by ForHackernews • 12 years ago

121 201 12 years ago

psmag.com

kcovia2• 12 years ago

The quality of life is really great here in Pittsburgh. I have a huge 1 bedroom, back yard, front porch, in a great safe neighborhood, a block from major bus lines. All for $600/month. It'd run me at least triple that in somewhere like SF or NYC. Sure, you can't get some of the things you'd get in those cities, but quite frankly, you can come close. There are dozens of ethic restaurants a block away, 10+ museums and galleries within 5-10 miles, and best of all, it's cheap enough to actually have time to visit them.

JohnBooty2• 12 years ago

At one point, I looked into living in NYC, and the sheer cost of living in that city was intimidating. Salaries are often higher to match, so it balances out somewhat, but I like my space and I don't think I'd be okay with paying $1,800 for a studio apartment no matter how much somebody was paying me.

For those who do enjoy the biggest cities, I'm not knocking your choices. A lot of people are energized by living in such a hustling and bustling place. I totally get it.

johnward8• 12 years ago

I live close to Pittsburgh but in the middle of nowhere, OH. I Work in Squirrel Hill sometimes but mostly from home. I have a 4bedroom 3bath house with a 2 car garage on 15 acres that costs me ~900 per month. You couldn't rent a small apartment in some cities for that. However, you give up the convenience of being in the city and all the activities if that's the lifestyle you want to live. I personally love my fortress of solitude.

theandrewbailey• 12 years ago

There's also fiber optic internet (verizon FIOS).

JohnBooty2• 12 years ago

I felt a little more sane after reading that article. I understand that a lot of people want to do their art in vibrant cities like NYC, and that makes sense for people pursuing careers like theater that you can't realistically pursue while living alone in a cabin in the woods. (Whether you can even realistically pursue it in NYC is another story, but it's at least theoretically possible)

But a lot of us (though certainly not all of us) writers and programmers and other such types would rather live somewhere cheaper and less claustrophobic. I know it's certainly what I chose. It's not without its downsides but I like the upsides.

weeksie• 12 years ago

I think if I was a bit younger and a bit less thoroughly ruined by living in New York for the past six years (I really couldn't live anywhere else in the US long term)—I'd go to Detroit. It's cheap, a bit dangerous, and drawing a shitload of artists and writers. Not being near the ocean would drive me batty, but it would be an awesome excursion for a few years.

I recently did the classic Manhattan to Brooklyn move and I'm thrilled. Perhaps I have Stockholm Syndrome but I love that it's possible to up and move to a different town and still be in New York City.

But, to each their own. Some writers thrive on isolation and some thrive on socialization.

benburton8• 12 years ago

As a software engineer, and recent Pittsburgh transplant coming from NYC, I think it's ok here. The only part that's hitting me pretty hard is food... it's pretty much incomparable.

I have been trying to find decent Indian food, for example, but have been coming up short. Pittsburgh does have very good modern-American cuisine, but "ethnic" food is a bit lacking.

Going out drinking is insanely cheap by comparison. You can get a good craft beer draft for as low as $2, whereas in NYC the best I'd find would be around $4 (and that would be pretty lucky). There's plenty to do culturally, and the rent/housing prices are very good.

EDIT: Thanks for all the Indian food recommendations. I've got some eating to do!

osterwood• 12 years ago

Good indian? You need to check out Udipi: http://udipicafepittsburgh.com

It's out in Monroeville next to a concrete factory -- but fantastic south indian food. Definitely worth the drive.

benburton8• 12 years ago

Thanks for the recommendation. I'll definitely check it out!

kibwen• 12 years ago

Ah, I'm glad someone beat me to suggesting Udipi! Everything there is lovely, and I've never seen anyone else make puri (the fried balloon bread) as spectacularly large as they do. Probably the best Indian food that I've had in Pittsburgh, though Tamarind (http://www.urbanspoon.com/r/23/271746/restaurant/Oakland/Tam...) in Oakland has an amazingly affordable lunch buffet.

machinshin_• 12 years ago

Udupi's south indian (mainly Tamil) food, it's only one small piece of the gigantic puzzle :)

cfallin• 12 years ago

I have been trying to find decent Indian food, for example

Tamarind on North Craig Street in Oakland?

Oh how I miss Pittsburgh... I was there four years and it took a little while but it really, really grew on me. I hope you find more spots to your liking!

benburton8• 12 years ago

I found Tamarind to be pretty bland, but I'll keep exploring! :)

akilism2• 12 years ago

People's and Taste of India

were my go to spots before I left Pgh for NYC.

kcovia2• 12 years ago

The best Indian food is at the truck on Bigelow in Oakland. Delicious, cheap, and authentic (according to a (north) Indian girl I used to date. )

brational2• 12 years ago

That's kind of the catch though. Indian food is drastically different by region. Many american-indian restaurants will try to offer a full variety of various region dishes and may be great at some but weaker at others. So depending what a certain restaurant is good at and where your indian friend is from... you get different results.

That said, the more options the better in my opinion!

jmgao• 12 years ago

Oh man, that guy was awesome. I went there 2-3 times a week back when I was in Pittsburgh. I still haven't found better Indian food out in the Bay Area.

wil4212• 12 years ago

I think most people make their decisions on where to live based on jobs, schools, and location...not on food.

benburton8• 12 years ago

How foolish of me. I ought not to have even brought it up.

sjs382• 12 years ago

Good Indian food? Inside the Days Inn on Banksville Rd. Seriously, I'm not kidding.

jpadkins2• 12 years ago

If you are downtown, Sree's on 7th/smithfield is nice. She makes a different dish everyday.

I agree on ethnic food. I still can't find a decent burrito place.

dgabriel• 12 years ago

This is totally off-topic, but I've known Wammo for years&years via the music & poetry scene, and it's very strange to see him turn up on Hacker News.

mbillie12• 12 years ago

As a software engineer working remote, I live in Salt Lake City (not a mormon; like to ski/hike/climb), and I would never move back to NYC. For what I paid for a studio apartment in Astoria, I rent a full 3/2 house with a view of 11,000' mountains out here. There's something to be said for relative wealth.

micro_cam4• 12 years ago

I'm doing the same thing for the same reason but in rural Montana near granite big walls and powder covered peaks and I suspect there are many more of us out there. Just bought a large farm house on 3.4 acres with a stream a couple miles from the trailheads and crags for less then a condo in Seattle. I can't imagine moving back to a city for any reason.

This area (the missoula+bitterroot valley area) also has a surprising number of startups, both software and hardware including a utility bike manufacture that is stealing contracts from the Chinese and various biotechs and big data focussed companies.

I think that cheap space and low cost of living are ingredients that are too often overlooked in YC style startups.

I'm primarily a software/machine learning guy but now that I've got a garage i've already got small machine shop set up for various hardware projects and experiments and now that we have guest rooms and space I'll be inviting various collaborators out for coding/hiking/climbing/skiing retreats.

mrfusion• 12 years ago

Sounds amazing. What's the climate like? Are winters unbearable?

mbillie12• 12 years ago

I think that cheap space and low cost of living are ingredients that are too often overlooked in YC style startups.

Absolutely. Having moved here, and being in a position where I work remote and live in a place 100% chosen for my lifestyle, I would never voluntarily switch back. You cannot put a high enough price tag on happiness.

justrudd4• 12 years ago

I'm curious if you (or the grandparent poster) grew up in more outdoorsy areas during your childhood?

I grew up on a farm - 3,000 acres - we had crops (normal crops - peanuts, corn, etc. and not normal - loblolly trees). Camping and hiking were just what we did to get to the backside of the place to check on fire lanes, crops, do some hunting, etc.

Most people I know that had a more urban upbringing love the idea of being "near" nature. But having spent 20 years of my life in it, other than the occasional weekend hike, I don't want to live any where near it :)

gdilla5• 12 years ago

but what about Indian food! j/k. well, not really.

bmj5• 12 years ago

I'm a life-long Pittsburgher, and my wife and I seriously considered relocating to SLC a few years ago (we are climbers) because it seemed to offer the same level of affordability as PGH does.

Tiktaalik• 12 years ago

The author chooses his quote from Florida poorly. Florida is talking about Pittsburgh from when he worked there in the "early 2000s" (and presumably earlier). That's a decade or more ago. Cities can change remarkably in a decade.

Florida doesn't make any statement about what Pittsburgh is like today.

robg• 12 years ago

I did my graduate work in Pittsburgh. $20k a year sustained me quite well. Rent for a large two-bedroom blocks from my office was $680/month. I know people who bought homes and paid a mortgage for less. Food is decent, kind people, public transportation is pretty good.

andrewljohnson• 12 years ago

When I was in college in Pittsburgh (1999-2003), I rented rooms in share houses for $75-150/month, in nice parts of Shadyside and Squirrel Hill (after figuring out the dorms were obscenely expensive). I could have probably gotten by on around $20K/year, feeling very comfortable.

jcdavis• 12 years ago

Its definitely more expensive now, when I rented in 2009-2010 rooms in similar places were more like $300-400/month. Still a pretty affordable place regardless.

nilkn2• 12 years ago

On the topic of less popular cities: My parents live in St. Louis. It's a wonderful place. The city was hit hard by de-industrialization, which is probably the reason why it's so affordable. It has Wash U, which is a really excellent private university. The campus is next to Forest Park and a thriving collegetown-type area. There are some gorgeous historic neighborhoods nearby as well which have been maintained over the decades, like Parkview.

The city is so affordable that it's not terribly uncommon for upper middle class folks like doctors to have vacation homes, usually lakehouses.

And I imagine there's a lot of really awesome office space available for rent in downtown at affordable rates for would-be startups; not to mention there's undoubtedly a lot of fantastic local CS talent coming out of Wash U which is largely untapped by the city.

Missouri is fully seasonal as well. It's sometimes breathtaking to see everything in bloom in the spring and early summer, and there are plenty of opportunities to play in the snow in winter.

The only thing it's lacking, of course, is an abundance of well-paying stable jobs in technology.

brational2• 12 years ago

Showed this to a friend of mine that works for a start up out west: http://downtowntrex.com/officespace/ Office space is jaw-droppingly cheap.

nilkn2• 12 years ago

Sounds like a killer deal for someone working remotely. Live in a great urban neighborhood without the insane cost, rent your own office downtown so you have a physically distinguished working space, and enjoy life.

I'd seriously consider doing it if I were more confident in the stability and longevity of remote work.

akilism2• 12 years ago

Lived in PGH for 10 years and now I'm on year 9 of NYC.

I definitely miss the cost of living but I'm making much more money that I ever did in Pittsburgh. I love it there though I day dream of moving to back and living in a nice big house in the east end.

gw2• 12 years ago

This rings really true, and it's not just for artists or authors. I moved to Pittsburgh so I could take a year off and just work on free software. I had about $10k in savings and it lasted the whole year. You can get even cheaper rent if you're willing to live a bit outside the city.

keehun• 12 years ago

$10k for an entire year sounds really amazing. Did it feel like $10k? Mind sharing a rough expenses/budget? Even with a $100k salary, saving/investing $90k annually would be amazing...

gw2• 12 years ago

Currently I'm living about 20 minutes outside the city on $450/mo rent, utilities included except gas. I eat really cheaply by buying in bulk from Sam's Club, though about once a week I go out drinking/eating. I don't pay any cable bill -- I just tether off of my phone for internet. I also don't have any student loans anymore, so that helps.

NDizzle• 12 years ago

How are the K-12 public schools in Pittsburgh? Everyone seems interested to move somewhere and rent a one bedroom.

fixermark7• 12 years ago

They are decent, but there's some high variance. It's worth doing your homework.

Anecdotally, some of my coworkers moved here expressly to raise their families; they liked the school system options here better than the larger cities they came from. I don't have children of my own, so I haven't done the research.

jimbokun3• 12 years ago

I send my kids to a Catholic school.

That said, I know several people who have gotten their kids into Pittsburgh charter schools and seem to be happy with that.

If we go the public school route for high school, my kids would feed into Allderdice, and I hear their advanced program is outstanding, with many kids going into Ivies from there.

Also, there's the Pittsburgh Promise.

https://pittsburghpromise.org/earn.php

"The Pittsburgh Promise scholarship is a big idea and a real commitment: if you live in the city and attend Pittsburgh Public schools from 9th grade on, up to a $40,000 Promise scholarship will be waiting for you at graduation."

Only applies to PA schools, but still, an impressive program.

bmj5• 12 years ago

Allderdice is one of the consistently better high schools in the city, assuming your kids get into the advanced program. Personally, I'm a product of Central Catholic, but many of my friends (who went on to Ivies) came out of Allderdice.

nameniap• 12 years ago

School districts in the South Hills suburbs are fairly good and rank highly in the state (Mt. Lebanon, Upper St. Clair, Bethel Park, ...). If working in the city, you can take the "T" (light rail) into town from the South Hills.

ChikkaChiChi• 12 years ago

Pittsburgh has always been a great city to be "from" and only recently has become a good city to be "in".

My hometown (grew up in Hazelwood/Greenfield) is still a city very much in transition. If you stay in your designated neighborhoods like Oakland, Shadyside, Squirrel Hill, etc. you'll be blissful in your little bubble of it being a great town on the upswing. Get ten minutes out of town in almost any direction (sans the southern 376 corridor to the airport) and you'll feel like you are on a different planet.

Sometimes even taking the wrong street will have you wind up in areas that are dilapidated, poverty stricken, and villainous. The Consol Energy Center is a stone's throw from one of the historically worst neighborhoods in the country.

Knowing that, Pittsburgh has radically changed in a very short amount of time. Medical was always big there; but the dotcom boom incubated a wonderful technology center that surrounds Carnegie Mellon and the other fine schools in the area.

I wouldn't hesitate for a second moving back to Pittsburgh...just so long as I get to live in a place of my own choosing and not my old neighborhood :)

jimbokun3• 12 years ago

I live in Greenfield now. Able to easily afford a big house for very little money. Easy access to all of the neighborhoods you mention, as well as downtown. I walk to work in Squirrel Hill, for example.

Just to say, some of us actually like your old neighborhood. :)

chiph• 12 years ago

I've been in Austin almost 4-1/2 years, and it's changed significantly in that time. Fewer hippies, more yuppies. It's common now to hear of cash offers on houses that are $10k above the asking price.

jimbokun3• 12 years ago

Pittsburgh is also an outstanding place to raise children.

Our first child was born in Brooklyn, second in New Jersey, but my wife and I are originally from the Pittsburgh area. Returned to Pittsburgh while our kids were still in pre-school.

The Carnegie Library system is outstanding. The Squirrel Hill and Oakland branches (most convenient locations to us) have large, comfortable children's sections. With their loan system, can request pretty much any book you can think of and pick up in a few days in the branch closest to you. My kids understand the system and use it to get books by authors they like.

Children's Museum, Phipp's Conservatory, and Carnegie museum are all great for kids. Generally, if you go more than once a yearly membership pays off, and a lot of these are connected (membership in one gives you admission to others).

A few years older now, we got season passes to Kennywood and Sandcastle. Kennywood has fantastic roller coasters, especially the older ones.

Schenley and Frick parks are immense. With the Pittsburgh topography, you can walk through trails and feel totally removed from the city.

In many neighborhoods, you can own suburb sized homes for cheaper than the suburbs, with access to all the city amenities.

My kids walk 3 blocks to school.

I could go on. Pittsburgh is a great place to raise a family.

benburton8• 12 years ago

This is the main reason my wife and I moved from NYC to Pittsburgh.

The people I know who still live in NYC end up spending much of their salary hiring people to watch their kids, and then there's the competitive nature of getting kids into preschools, kindergarden, etc. and all the costs associated with those.

burnte• 12 years ago

I was born and raised in Pittsburgh, and yes, it's a great place to raise kids. but it's not a great place to be when you're starting out your life. I love Pgh and always will, but they city has a serious problem thinking ahead and finding ways to grow. It tried being a financial city in the 80s, then a tech city in the 90s, all the while it was growing as a medical city. It's still the best place to get sick for nearly anything, the medical facilities are second to none. But aside from education and hospitals, there's no nearly enough industry there, not nearly enough new-world accoutrements. I, and many people like me, moved away after high school and college because the city can feel small, constrained, and too old fashioned. I don't think it doesn't need to lose that to grow, but I don't know what else it does need. I hope it finds it.

fixermark7• 12 years ago

Your perception doesn't match mine. I wasn't here in the '90s, but Apple, Disney, and Google seem to have bet their chips on Pittsburgh being a tech hub... And the bet seems to be paying off.

Maybe the seeds were sown in the '90s and they sprouted in the aughts? I'd have to know what was attempted in the '90s to evaluate the question; looks like I have some research to do. ;)

bmj5• 12 years ago

I am life-long 'burger (aside from 4 years away for university), and this doesn't match my experience (I'm 41, so I've been around the proverbial block here--I lived through the first "renaissance" in East Liberty, and am observing the re-growth of that neighborhood now). I jumped about the tech boom bus in the late 90s, and from what I've seen, the tech boom never ended. And, in my experience, that industry is varied--want to build websites? Build medical devices? Work on speech recognition software? There are jobs here for you.

not nearly enough new-world accoutrements

Can you give examples? As others have pointed out, I think PGH does a great job of bridging the gap between a large, cosmopolitan city and a small town where you don't have to feel lost forever. Of course, as you point out, the flip side to that it is a small town--you have to very careful to avoid burning bridges because it is highly likely you may need to cross that bridge again at some point.

(Edit: fixed formatting)

mtdewcmu• 12 years ago

>It tried being a financial city in the 80s, then a tech city in the 90s, all the while it was growing as a medical city.

You make it sound as if these trends were inauthentic. I think they were, in fact, organic outgrowths of the city's strengths. As long as Carnegie Mellon and the University of Pittsburgh are there, there will always be a strength in tech and medicine. I was a bit too young to be much of an observer of the 80s as they happened, but finance was most likely a strength due to Pittsburgh's prior status as headquarters for a significant number of Fortune 500 companies and banks: PNC, Mellon Bank, Gulf Oil, US Steel, Alcoa, HJ Heinz, Westinghouse... At the tail end of the postwar industrial boom, there must have been a good deal of money in Pittsburgh, ready to create a financial hub.

steveklabnik11• 12 years ago

I never realized how amazing the libraries and natural history museum was until I left the city and went other places. Such a spoiled child!

I just wish Carnegie didn't have to do all that evil stuff to make it happen. :/

ScotterC• 12 years ago

It was mostly Frick

mkr-hn• 12 years ago

The Carnegie Library system is outstanding. The Squirrel Hill and Oakland branches (most convenient locations to us) have large, comfortable children's sections. With their loan system, can request pretty much any book you can think of and pick up in a few days in the branch closest to you. My kids understand the system and use it to get books by authors they like.

This sounds a lot like Georgia's PINES system.

rwhitman• 12 years ago

Folks miss out on why major cultural centers attract people. In history it was because of the opportunities from ports and trade, today its still pretty much the same. Pittsburgh is not currently an airline hub for any airline. Meaning if you want to go anywhere other than Philadelphia you need a connection. Its also not adequately driveable or train distance from any city worth going to - Cleveland is your only neighbor, and getting to Philly from Pittsburgh is considerably more painful than Los Angeles to San Francisco (have done both runs routinely I would take the 5 through the central valley over the turnpike in winter anyday). Its also not a city that anyone passes through on a regular basis without making it the destination.

I can take a meeting with even international clients in NYC without ever leaving. They come here. If you're in art, yes you want to go where you can live cheap, but if you want to make a splash you need to be somewhere where there is sufficient disposable income and a big enough transient population to support viral awareness of your art. Pittsburgh doesn't have enough of those things. I think Pittsburgh is a wonderful city, filled with great parks, cheap beer and good folks. But I haven't visited there in years and there is a reason why

fixermark7• 12 years ago

If you haven't visited in years, you may have missed a lot of the changes. Depends on how many years.

Pittsburgh may not have an airline hub or access to the ocean, but it's been a transit nexus for decades; it's the last major city anything going from the New York / Philadelphia area along I-76 will hit before crossing the Alleghenies. As such, it sees a good assortment of art events and shows as they tour; theater tours (especially with significant technical needs) tend to be convoy-of-trailers affairs. To drill in on the arts specifically: I've seen Wicked, Addams Family, and Mary Poppins without having to plan a weekend for the event. There's also a Tony-award-winner-producing college in the city, which creates some excellent local shows as a side-effect.

You also may be under-estimating the effect of real estate value in a world where people can make a productive input without needing to physically geo-locate with the rest of their company. Pittsburgh is a growing location for software and other engineering. Apple, Disney, and Google all have offices in the city. Ports still matter, but not as much as they did in the days where the only meaningful value was in goods; in a service economy, things are more distributed.

theYipster• 12 years ago

100% agreed.

I'm from New York City but went to college in the 'Burgh, and while I do have an affinity for the place given the four years I spent there, I'd never choose to live there. It's a remarkably isolated city...

The last time Pittsburgh was a real, honest transit nexus was some 60-70 years ago for the Pennsylvania Railroad. While USAir had something of a hub at PIT, it's been tertiary to PHL and CLT since the company was called USAir, and then they pulled out very quickly after they were acquired by America West. For road travel, maybe it's a pass through city if you are starting in Philly and are driving to Cleveland, Detroit, or Chicago, but most of the traffic in the NE Corridor opts for I-80 to the north, which is much more direct and a much easier drive than the Turnpike.

Pittsburgh also doesn't have much of a metropolitan area surrounding it. The drop-off from downtown to rural is rather stark. And while there are indeed some nice neighborhoods (Shadyside and Squirrel Hill within the city... Fox Chapel and Wexford to name a few outside,) most of the inner suburbs have an, IMHO, outer-outer borough NYC feel to them (i.e. Bay Ridge or Bay Side, not Williamsburg or Park Slope.) There is practically no commuter belt, so you either really have to like the urban core, or the surrounding mountain towns.

So yes, it's an isolated city. Even Cleveland and Baltimore have more of a metro-urban feel to them in some respects. It's certainly not an issue for many who choose to live there, but it's always been my reason for staying away after college.

LordKano2• 12 years ago

I agree for the most part but I would like to question your use of rural in this context.

As I see it, there are a couple of rural pockets near the city but they're the exception rather than the rule. There's an approximately 20 mile buffer of suburbs between the city proper and rural areas.

Maybe it's a difference of experience so where do New York eyes see as rural near the city?

olentangy• 12 years ago

The airport isn't what it used to be, but still has some good connections. This spring I took a direct flight to Paris. Not bad...

badman_ting3• 12 years ago

I left Pittsburgh, like all my friends except for one. It's been discussed as an up-and-coming city for years now, but I'm still not sure it's somewhere I would want to live. I remember when people pointed to the Google office that was built there, as an indicator that things were changing. At the time, that office had 25 employees, not sure about now. I guess I'm saying that I'm not sure how much of that narrative is actually happening for people in Pittsburgh.

As far as raising kids, I could definitely see that. Your real-estate dollar goes pretty far. The weather sucks ass, though -- even Paul Graham says so! I really wouldn't want to have to deal with that again.

(Also, the bit about "why should I pay a bunch in rent to live near some nice parks" is such a dumb way of thinking about NYC. But if you really do think that way you definitely should not go to New York.)

quesodd• 12 years ago

Google is doing well. They have 4 floors at BakerySquare and just bought a significant portion of some new construction.

johnward8• 12 years ago

and constantly have positions open

fixermark7• 12 years ago

You aren't wrong about the weather. Which is, ironically, why I live here... I hate sunny weather, I burn easily (even with sunscreen) and it's easier for me to add clothing to guard against the cold than to shed layers to avoid the heat. I'm also allergic to the pollen of a whole host of plants that simply aren't hardy enough to survive the winters here; my childhood summers were a miserable annual struggle through one respiratory infection after another, but nowadays I just pop a Zyrtec a few months out of the year and I'm good to go.

Pittsburgh is a great fit for me climate-wise, but given that I'd move to Alaska for the climate, I'm probably an outlier. ;)

badman_ting3• 12 years ago

Well, in my opinion it's not just the cold, the summers are hot and gross too. Not much "open-window weather", as my mom says. But then, if pollen is a consideration that would make sense for you. I live in the Pacific NW now, which is much milder year-round.

steveklabnik11• 12 years ago

I spent the first 25 years of my life in Pittsburgh, the last two in California (18 months LA, 6 months SF), and _just_ moved to Brooklyn two weeks ago.

Pittsburgh is wonderful. There's a lot wrong with it, but a lot of right too. It is certainly very cheap to live, and there's a lot going on. We even have a Techstars-affiliated incubator, which used to offer a really, really good deal. My first startup, CloudFab, went through it years ago. That said, SF is still the best place in the world to do a startup: every city says "We may not be SF, but we have X!" X is _never_ enough to make up for not being SF. I said it when I lived there too, and now that I've lived in SF, I know that's just deeply, deeply wrong. That doesn't mean you _can't_ do it, but it's a handicap.

However, living in a place is very rarely about 'economic sense.' I have a _need_ to live in NYC. I've gotten more work done in the two weeks I've lived here than I did in the entire six months I lived in SF, and maybe about a third of what I did in LA. The hustle, bustle, and opportunities are endless.

Last night I woke up at ten am, did my laundry, then went to a juice bar, worked for a few hours, walked around, ended up literally coding on a bar while watching the US. vs. Ghana game, then took the train over to Herald Square and coded in the park. It was a beautiful evening. Around midnight, walked up to Times Square to squeak in some power before all the stores closed, then worked in another park until 3am, and took the train home. You can't really do that anywhere else, at least in the states.

Oh, and I'm saving about 25% on my rent by moving to Brooklyn from San Francisco, and I'd be saving 60% if I had still lived in the Mission when I left.

imc• 12 years ago

It's great seeing you happy again, Steve.

steveklabnik11• 12 years ago

xienze3• 12 years ago

Last night I woke up at ten am, did my laundry, then went to a juice bar, worked for a few hours, walked around, ended up literally coding on a bar while watching the US. vs. Ghana game, then took the train over to Herald Square and coded in the park. It was a beautiful evening. Around midnight, walked up to Times Square to squeak in some power before all the stores closed, then worked in another park until 3am, and took the train home. You can't really do that anywhere else, at least in the states.

So your gold standard is "a city where I code in bars and parks until the middle of the night?" Yeah, I think there's more than one place in the US where you can do that.

steveklabnik11• 12 years ago

There are very few cities which have bars that are open past 2am, and there are very few cities in which you can code at a bar and not be weird (which means things like accessible power plugs), and there are very few cities in which there's hustle and bustle, even at 3am.

gdilla5• 12 years ago

you can do that all at home too

forgotAgain3• 12 years ago

My daughter has lived in Brooklyn since she graduated from an Ivy, class of 2011. She has a liberal arts degree. She found a job where she started in the mid 30’s. After two and a half years she’s broken 40 but not by much. She works about 60 hours a week. Her last review made her a manager so she gets no overtime. She works in an industry that caters to luxury so the company is setting income records. The money is all flowing to the top. It’s an employers market and the starting salary the company now offers is lower then it was when she started because there are so many college graduates looking for anything resembling a job.

She lived in Park Slope for the first two years, sharing a two bedroom, fifth floor walkup, attic apartment. The entire apartment was maybe 20 x 20 ft with a good part of it of limited use due to the slant of the roof. Rent was $1,500 a month including utilities. It was a great neighborhood though and she really enjoyed her time there.

The apartment building was sold to a luxury developer and the rent was raised to $2,300 a month. The new owners really just wanted the building empty so they could gut it and change it to luxury apartments. We walked by there this past weekend and the place was boarded up.

Her new apartment is a legitimate two bedroom in a clean but very old building on the edges of Boerum Hill. The neighborhood is okay but you need to be aware that two blocks away it starts get dodgy very quickly. The rent is $2,200 + utilities. Her and her apartment mate looked for two months to find the apartment. It was the only thing they could find that was affordable but wasn’t a filthy dump. The leases on the old and new places overlapped by a month and a half but they had to look early because the inventory is so limited.

Real estate in NYC has gone crazy. Manhattan prices are driven by international buyers looking for a place that’s safe. One bedroom apartments in Manhattan for less than a million are becoming scarce according to the NYT. Brooklyn is priced at what Manhattan was a couple of years ago. The downtown area of Brooklyn has been very popular because of the availability of mass transit to get people into their jobs in Manhattan. As you move out from downtown Brooklyn the commute time increases quickly as subway lines spread out and express trains make less frequent stops. Two to three hours a day on a subway commute becomes old very quickly.

NYC is a great place but unless you have some equity in the place you work you’re very likely not going to be able to afford to have the life you think is waiting for you there.

wil4212• 12 years ago

I am paying about $1400 in rent/utilities a month outside Atlanta for a 3/2 plus 2 living rooms on over a acre of fenced in land with a storage shed. Its right in one of the best school districts and one of the top High Schools in the state.

A friend of mine recently visited from NYC and remarked about how he is paying $3000 for a place in Manhattan with one room. I couldnt imagine living in a building taking an elevator to my place. Cant have pets and he can barely have people over to sit down.

From the stories I hear about SF and NYC, I am probably never going to move to either.

gdilla5• 12 years ago

I don't know. Living in NYC has taught me to make-do with less stuff. Storage space and closets are at a premium here. One thing that is great, I don't buy things to keep in the house, like books, or stuff from Amazon without really thinking hard about it, or if I know I can resell it/give it away later. In California, i would just go to target if i needed something.. there was always somewhere in the apt to keep/store it.

_delirium2• 12 years ago

I couldnt imagine living in a building taking an elevator to my place.

I suppose different people have different preferences. I couldn't imagine stepping out of my door and having literally nothing interesting (not even a grocery store or coffee shop!) in walking distance. Or rather, I can imagine it, because I grew up in suburbia, but I can't imagine wanting to move back. Just feels way too isolated being so far from everything and unable to do even the simplest things without driving.

Of course, I don't personally take the elevator, rather the stairs, because my building has no elevator. :D

gerbal• 12 years ago

She should move almost anywhere else. In one of the most expensive parts of North Carolina, a one bed room appartment rents for ~$600 a month, and $30K isn't a lot, but it's enough to live reasonably comfortably.

grrrando2• 12 years ago

Three hours a day on the subway from almost anywhere in Brooklyn to almost anywhere in Manhattan is a stretch. I commute from Bay Ridge - the far end of the "R" line in Brooklyn, and not express - to Little Italy, daily. Door-to-door, the commute is about 45 minutes. My rent is under $1600 for a large 1BR in an elevator building with laundry.

Coming from Philadelphia, where I lived in a 2BR HOUSE with a yard and all the amenities for $400/mo less, there was some sticker shock. But when you get to it, there's a lot more opportunity, a lot more options, a lot more of...everything. New York is about "a lot". That's what you pay for.

People seem to be unwilling to explore neighborhoods outside of a 20-minute ride to down/midtown hotspots, which reasonably cost considerably more. If you can stomach an extra 10-20m on the subway you can find very livable rents in good neighborhoods.

forgotAgain3• 12 years ago

I use to live in Bay Ridge as well, I was at the end of the R (then RR) line at 95th St. The subway is local from there and it takes a good 45 minutes to reach Wall Street and an hour to reach midtown. On top of that you need to add in the time to and from the station at both ends.

Its been a while since I lived there but living in Bay Ridge is not what people think of when they think of living in NYC. There are no museums or shows, great libraries or parks with concerts. (Although there is Shore Road which is a great place to jog.) Going into Manhattan on weekends is a drag when you ride the subway all week. Honestly, comparing living in Bay Ridge to living in someplace like Pittsburgh, I don't see where it's worth the time that the added expenses costs.

Maven911• 12 years ago

What do you get in NYC that you wouldnt't get elsewhere (or that's hard to get elsewhere) ? Legitimate question here, since I am thinking of moving there but I have feelings the place is just overhyped as a tourist spot.

autokad3• 12 years ago

I visit my friend in bay ridge all the time. I take the N to 59th street from 30th in manhatan, and its at least 45 minutes. The R is considerably longer. closer to an hour when you consider walking to the station and waiting for the N. somehow I always see R when I need an N. This situation would be more typical than yours, requiring at least an hour full commute to your destination.

I lived Philadelphia for 9 years (from outside Pittsburgh), I'm curious to what 'a lot more opportunity, a lot more options' mean? I find almost anything NYC can offer that other cities dont are things that I myself do once in a blue moon.

sure, I can't see a 100$+ broadway play at the cost of 24k$ a year in increased housing, but instead I can take the train out for the 1 time a year I do and spend the rest going to i dono, egypt?

mtalantikite2• 12 years ago

Is that $2200/month per person for the 2 bedroom apartment in Boerum Hill or total? I only ask because $2200/month for any 2 bedroom in Brooklyn these days sounds like a blessing, never mind in Boerum Hill.

My friend left her studio apartment in Clinton Hill and the rent jumped from $1500/month to $2300/month between 2010 and 2012.

Another friend's landlord in Greenpoint has been using 5 units in his building as an AirBnB hotel and is now asking $4500/month for 3 bedroom units in the rest of the building. And those "bedrooms" are really just plywood separators.

Another friend just signed a lease for a $3k/month 1 bedroom with a garden in Bed Stuy.

I love living in Brooklyn but I'm getting pretty tired of seeing the same fancy cocktail places, $16 burger joints, and exorbitant asking prices on apartments deeper and deeper into bk.

diminoten• 12 years ago

$2200/month on a 40k salary is simply un-doable, so I'm guessing it's $2200 for the apartment, which is great.

In DC that'd get you a 1BR/Studio. I'd figuratively murder someone to get a $1500/month studio in DC.

forgotAgain3• 12 years ago

It's $2,200/month total + utilities (internet + electric). They looked a lot before finding it. It's a fourth floor walkup with no laundry in the building.

LordKano2• 12 years ago

I'm a Pittsburgh area native and I still react with shock when I find out what my friends and relatives in other cities pay for housing.

Over $1,000/month for a little apartment and $300/month for a parking space.

You could buy two houses in the Pittsburgh suburbs for that much money. A nice 3 bedroom house in a clean, low crime suburb can be had for under $100k. Smaller houses, fixer-uppers and houses in less than ideal neighborhoods can be purchased for under $50k.

jaegerpicker• 12 years ago

I made a very similar choice as the article highlights. I'm a experienced Software engineer, particularly with the back end of web systems but also iOS and Android apps. I could live in nearly any city in the western Hemisphere and have a large choice of jobs. I found a GREAT place to work in Portland Maine and I couldn't be happier. I'm originally from the Rust belt (2 hours from Pittsburgh and about 1.5 hours from Cleveland) and we thought long and hard about either of those two cities as a good place to move but Portland and the Ocean were just too big of a draw. Portland is much cheaper than other East Coast cities but has an amazing food screen, great outdoor activities on it's doorstep, and a thriving art screen. It's also only 90 minutes from Boston and a day trip drive from NYC. We also considered NYC and SF, to me there was no way to justify the expense vs Portland. It's one reason why I don't think there will be another Silicon Valley, I think the next rise of tech companies are going to be far spread out and in places that it's easy to attract great engineers to.

morgante2• 12 years ago

I think there's a pretty strong argument for moving to a Pittsburgh on sabbatical, but while I'm working I'd definitely stay in NYC/SF.

Salaries here are substantially higher (I doubt devs make $150k+ in Pittsburgh, in NYC that's very achievable), and that makes a huge difference in accumulating savings. Yes, living expenses are proportionally higher here as well so I'm still only left with a small percentage of my paycheck. But that small percentage means a lot more because it can be spent on global goods like travel or savings.

Spending a couple grand on a vacation is basically a rounding error in a NYC budget, but it'd be a decent chunk of a Pittsburgh salary. Similarly, saving just a bit of my income in NYC for a few years makes it easy to build up a large nest egg for a down payment on a beautiful house somewhere like Pittsburgh.

If I'm way off base, someone please let me know. If it's actually possible to make $150k+ in a cheap area, or with remote work, I'd be interested to hear.

badman_ting3• 12 years ago

That has been my way of thinking too. Another consideration is student loans - if you pay $500 a month in loans, that will be a smaller portion of an NYC salary. Same for any purchase or bill which is unrelated to cost of living.

steveklabnik11• 12 years ago

"Pittsburgh" has an "h" at the end, and Pittsburghers will get really annoyed by this. You almost made my eye start twitching. ;)

Sorry, I don't mean to be a jerk. Just wanted to let you know.

benburton8• 12 years ago

Sorry, I don't mean to be a jagoff.

Fixed that for you ;)

morgante2• 12 years ago

Sorry, fixed that and thanks for the heads up. The h is very unusual.

rickdale• 12 years ago

I recently saw a real life crime mystery show where they proved a guy had written an email under someone elses address by noticing "Pittsburgh" was spelled without the 'h' in the email. He had murdered a girl and then sent emails to her family from her account saying she would be in 'Pittsburg'. Being from Pittsburgh the spelling immediately raised red flags for the family.

benburton8• 12 years ago

If it's actually possible to make $150k+ in a cheap area, or with remote work, I'd be interested to hear.

It's possible with remote work (I know at least a few people who do), it's just difficult to find those opportunities.

johnward8• 12 years ago

I know developers in Pittsburgh that were making 120-150k at FedEx Ground HQ. I know plenty that make over 100k. Although I see postings for 45k and wonder if they ever fill them. I'm not a Dev but I make almost 90k. If I moved to California I could probably find something at 120k but I don't know that 30k is enough of a difference. If you are talking about 50k vs 150k then it's a no-brainer to move.

jpadkins2• 12 years ago

NetApp, Google, Apple, PNC, UPMC, and a few others pay experienced devs over $150k. Medical device companies may, I don't have first hand knowledge (they pay UX consultants the same rate as in CA). Dev jobs in IT depts of industrial firms won't pay that much, nor will web startups. But that is the same as the bay area.

My personal experience (10 years in mnt view, 4 years in Pittsburgh): not even close when you compare free cash flow. I have way more now in pittsburgh for savings, vacations, etc. You have to consider total cost of living (taxes, real estate, cost of living, etc). I'd estimate even with 25% more salary in CA, you would have more spending money in PA.

The big thing you give up is diversity of jobs and choice. If you like to hop around a lot, try new things, there are simply not as many good options. I'd still recommend bay area right out of school, but seriously consider Pittsburgh, Seattle, Austin, Raleigh, etc when you are at the stage you want to buy a house.

ry0ohki• 12 years ago

The salaries are not that much lower, and the cost of living is so significantly lower that you'd net more in Pittsburgh. I live in Pittsburgh and have had several jobs that pay over $100k. You can rent an apartment in the nicest hippest area here for $800/month (or less). You can own a home in a reasonable area for under $100k.

I speak from experience as sure my paycheck was larger when I lived in DC, but I could never afford to own a single family home. Now I own what would be the equivalent of a mansion in DC for less then what my suburban Maryland townhouse went for.

phrasemix• 12 years ago

I recently moved back to Durham, North Carolina after 10 years of living in bigger cities (Tokyo, then NYC).

I expected that the rent would be cheaper but that I'd miss out in terms of culture, food, and the quality of people I met.

What I'm finding is 1) The culture that is available here is easier to appreciate and digest because there's less paradox of choice 2) The food is a little more limited but overall better 3) The people that I meet are just as smart and interesting. I often forget that I'm back in the South and not in Brooklyn.

johnward8• 12 years ago

I really liked the RTP area when I was down there. Plus they seem to have a pretty good tech scene. It's kind of like Pittsburgh with decent weather.

_delirium2• 12 years ago

Any tips on cool parts of the RTP area? I was at a conference in downtown Raleigh for a week two years ago, and was kind of surprised that the downtown is super-small. Had two nice coffee shops, but didn't feel like the downtown of a 500,000 person city; almost the kind of 5-block downtown you'd expect for a town 1/10 of that size. I might go again this year, and am hoping to find somewhere to stay where there's more stuff going on, but am not quite sure where that is.

eshvk4• 12 years ago

I know that someday I will be moving to a small city. However, there are huge pros and cons. I have lived for the past few years in San Francisco and New York. Both are massive cities; San Francisco is a huge tech echo-chamber. It can get nauseating at times. New York has people who can be complete assholes to strangers. Just because. Yet, every time, I leave the cities to travel elsewhere, I am reminded of why I pay the expensive amounts to live here.

- Food: Walk out of your house. Go a few blocks. You will find ethnic food of your choice in New York or San Francisco. Hell, I live in the UWS in New York. Even here, in the midst of high residential nirvana, you can find random restaurants open at all hours of the night. Austin was a great city when I lived there. Except that the closest restaurant ( a subway) was 5 miles away. Ever want to do something crazy, like celebrate a birthday of a friend during thanksgiving. Not a chance. Everything is shutdown. This is not just an American phenomenon. I have been in Stockholm for the past few weeks. It is sunday afternoon and you want food? Nope, it is sunny out there so every restaurant owner in a five block radius wants to close his place and go hang out.

- Transport: If you want to live in an American city and not drive a car, I haven't found better cities to live than the two. It is ridiculous how well a city like Austin is designed for the four wheeled population. To the extent that pavements are an afterthought, sandwiched between lawns and tarmac.

- Culture: This is not going to be an issue for most people making the move. However, as a person who is a perpetual immigrant, I prefer cities that are filled with people from varying different backgrounds. New York is the most non American, American city that I have ever lived in. I wish I could say the same for San Francisco, but it really is a city of three major clusters.

potatolicious4• 12 years ago

This reflects my thoughts on NYC perfectly. Even though every time I leave the city I end up complaining about how my apartment is the size of somebody's living room, when push comes to shove I wouldn't dream of trading my Manhattan shoebox for a big house in the suburbs.

The culture part really rings true for me. I was born in Asia, immigrated to Canada at a very young age, and now I'm in the US. I find it difficult and oftentimes annoying to live in places without this sort of diversity. I've been to, for lack of a better term, "whiter" parts of the US and have always been a bit uncomfortable. I've met very few hostile "real" racists, but in these parts of the country I feel like every time I meet someone I have to first break through the stereotypes attached to my skin color.

"Where are you from?" "Canada" (I speak with no trace of an Asian accent) "No, where are you REALLY from?"

In NYC the answer is "Cool, which part of Canada?"

Nevermind the people who just have to sneak in the "good at math" joke somewhere in there. Nobody ever means any harm, but it is profoundly annoying to go through life being the "other". In big cities this is never a problem - when I meet new people I'm treated as an individual first, not the sum perceptions of my race.

a8da6b0c91d5• 12 years ago

I bounced around overseas as a kid due to my father's job. In most of the country there is the automatic assumption that my family is connected to the military. In their heads the only reason people go overseas for work is for the government. It's only in some of the major cities that people have the correct understanding that the vast majority of American expatriates have nothing to do with the military.

It's not an annoying problem or anything like that, it just speaks to a certain mentality in most of the country that's hard to relate to.

scott_s• 12 years ago

You may find this comic familiar: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2003/12/31

eshvk4• 12 years ago

The culture part really rings true for me. I was born in Asia, immigrated to Canada at a very young age, and now I'm in the US. I find it difficult and oftentimes annoying to live in places without this sort of diversity. I've been to, for lack of a better term, "whiter" parts of the US and have always been a bit uncomfortable. I've met very few hostile "real" racists, but in these parts of the country I feel like every time I meet someone I have to first break through the stereotypes attached to my skin color.

Hah. I feel ya. I was born, grew up in Africa. I am of Indian origin. I don't explicit identify as Indian. Hell, being asked if I am from India as the first question from the get go is pretty fucking infuriating for me. It is getting to the point where I occasionally ask if they are European? Not to say this doesn't happen in the big cities like NYC or SF, but it happens way less than it would in Podunk town, USA. But it happens more in SF with its huge Indian tech population than in NYC where tech is just one another industry. This [1] kind of hits too close to home sometimes.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMJI1Dw83Hc

a8da6b0c91d5• 12 years ago

What is it with all the posts mentioning ethnic food? I can't be the only one who finds it crazy. I eat normal grocery store food and barely have use for restaurants at all. Yet there are apparently large numbers of people who decide where to live on the basis of restaurants? It's very strange to me.

exstudent2• 12 years ago

Do you have the skills and access to proper ingredients to cook: Mexican, Indian, Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese, Polish...?

That's a pretty typical (and healthy!) diet in a large city. I myself have recently relocated to a middle US city from NY and definitely miss the cuisine. I find myself feeling much less healthy and craving my old dietary variety.

justrudd4• 12 years ago

For me, I don't like to cook or cleanup. I'd rather pay 10 USD for a salad then to deal with any of the preparation myself. I'd much rather spend my time coding, reading, working out, etc.

So being near a bunch of different types of food is a must for me.

pessimizer• 12 years ago

It's a cultural thing with a certain segment of US middle class under 35s. Don't try to rationalize it. It's why gentrification comes with "pan-asian fusion" and sushi rather than grocery stores, drugstores, community centers, toy stores, or anything that's not foreign food or American comfort prepared by a chef (or a bar.)

My guess is that all of these people actually plan to return to the suburbs eventually, when their kids are old enough for school, and they decide to buy a house (with surprisingly little consideration to nearby Thai food offerings.) My projection of the mindset: you go to the city for exotic experiences, if you wanted to buy stuff for your house, or groceries, or a backpack, why wouldn't you go to the mall?

geebee4• 12 years ago

These stories keep popping up, and they're all very encouraging. There was a post a while back about a startup in St Louis, another about Baltimore. There are a lot of excellent cities out there, and SF really is just too expensive (NY, too, but we're talking about tech).

I'm reminded of a quote by Patty Smyth: "New York has closed itself off to the young and the struggling. But there are other cities. Detroit. Poughkeepsie. New York City has been taken away from you. So my advice is: Find a new city."

http://gothamist.com/2010/05/03/patti_smith_suggests_finding....

I really do think that tech needs to embrace the need to branch out. I understand SF is a great place to fund tech companies, and that VCs (and often CEOs) appear to prefer it.

But it is frustrating to see tech elites (I'm talking about the sort of people who get to pick up the phone and vent a bit to the elected leader of the world's largest military about their company's hiring woes) insist that there is a severe shortage of tech workers when they continue to create 110k a year jobs in a city where the median 3br house costs 1.1mil. I agree that SF should build more, but this isn't going to be the solution.

If you're offering 110K a year for developers in Detroit, Poughkeepsie, Baltimore, St Louis, Minneapolis and you can't find anyone, ok, maybe we can start talking about why and how the government can help. But if you're creating 110K a year jobs in a place where two full time workers are looking at roughly 50k in child care costs and a 1.1 mil bill for the median 3br house, well of course you're having trouble finding workers!

JPKab2• 12 years ago

I wonder how much of SF's growth is forced by VCs, like what happened to my friend who recently got funded. He was DC based, and as a requirement from his VC he had to move to San Fran for a minimum of a year.

His conversations with me have been interesting, with the main point being that he has to pay WAY more for talent, space, everything. His main frustration is he doesn't need the mythical "10X" developers. He just needs people who can deliver, and has to fight for talent with dozens of apps which have premises so silly that he can't believe they are funded.

I got an offer the other day for 120k in SF. I did the math, and said no. I'd be better off taking a job for 85k in Austin.

And regarding Austin getting more expensive: There is a huge differentiator here. Austin has a booming housing market AND a booming development market. There is tons of new housing being built, and a lot of it is very interesting, moderate density in-fill development relatively close to the downtown core. There's one company building neo-traditional development neighborhoods in old strip mall locations where the houses all have solar panels and uber modern designs. They go for 270k for a 3 bedroom. Hardly exorbitant.

dionidium• 12 years ago

"I got an offer the other day for 120k in SF. I did the math, and said no. I'd be better off taking a job for 85k in Austin."

I'm a developer in St. Louis who thinks about this sort of thing all the time. Look, I like San Francisco. I'm there a few times a year and it's great. But is it $60k/year more in cost-of-living better than Kansas City or Austin or Pittsburgh? What if the difference in salary is only half that? I don't know, but I don't think it's obvious.

bsder2• 12 years ago

I got an offer the other day for 120k in SF. I did the math, and said no. I'd be better off taking a job for 85k in Austin.

This is false. Have you checked actual rents and commutes in Austin rather than silly online calculators.

Yes, you get to avoid state tax in Texas. That is the primary advantage.

Rents within short commuting distance of downtown are ridiculous. Both IH35 and Mopac(Loop 1) have ridiculous traffic with no mass transit in sight. IH35 through Austin is actually acknowledged as a traffic nightmare in the same class as 101 and 405 in LA!

And, finally, you get to live outnumbered and surrounded in a state that wishes Austin would simply vaporize because it's full of "daymn libruls".

So, yeah, all that cheap housing is available. It's just a horrible commute from a community that likely hates your guts in a state that doesn't care.

Don't get me wrong. There is a lot to like about Austin. But this isn't 1996 when Austin really was 85% the cost of living of the rest of the country when I would fly in from California, buy a $4.95 submarine sandwhich and get back "3 feet" of food because I forgot where I was.

geebee4• 12 years ago

This seems to happens a lot (the requirement to move to SF). This is a side note, but I think the VC-required move to sf is behind a lot of the "10 things I hate about SF" style blog posts that proliferated for a while there (and still show up every now and then).

A big part of this is that people used to find a way to move to SF because they wanted to live there. In a way, finding a job that allowed you to live in SF was like finding a job that allowed you to be a musician, or pursue an art. SF wasn't a horrible place to pursue a career, but it wasn't the alpha city either. Finance and Law? New York, London, maybe Chicago. Entertainment? LA. Fashion? NY or Paris. Truly career focused people probably went elsewhere. SF wasn't a complete backwater, you could still pursue a career here, but you were in SF because you wanted to live in SF.

High tech was around, but it wasn't nearly as big, or as culturally high profile, and it was heavily centered in the south bay. As a result, you really didn't have people here who didn't want to be here who had to put up with it anyway. And no doubt, there's a lot you have to put up with in SF, even if, on the balance, you really like it.

Sometimes these "SF != cool city" posts unfavorably compare SF to NY (in my opinion, we need a type of godwin's law here - SF should never be compared to NY, and whoever makes this comparison loses the argument immediately). In the past, we'd probably ask "then why are you here instead of NY?", except that we wouldn't get a chance to ask - none of this would have even happened, because he would be living in NY.

But now? He has to live in SF to get funding, and he's not happy about to be in SF, and from the reaction, I'd say nobody is particularly happy about it.

mimighost• 12 years ago

Studying in Pittsburgh for my master's...I like this city in general, but it is just...felt old, stuck in 90s.

dreamweapon• 12 years ago

“Knowing there are people on this planet who think their sandwiches are worth $10 apiece bothers me immensely.”

It's not that the sandwiches are "worth" $10; it's that they're pegged to the square foot rent of the shop which sells them (and of the wages + salaries of the people who make them and provide them for sale; and hence, the rents of the spaces they live in, also).

That's just economics, and the same principles apply in NYC as anywhere else (with different rent figures plugged in).

ruigomes• 12 years ago

Is it realistic for a fresh graduate (with a masters) in Informatics and Computing Engineering from Portugal to go straight to NYC and be able to live alone (as in not sharing rooms) and actually have some money saved by the end of the year?

I would absolutely love to experience NY, since I'm a passionate web developer.. There's so many companies in this field over there that I feel that my career would grow so much faster than if I stay here in Europe (at least in Portugal).

I would personally prefer NY over SF since it's way closer to "home".

Any thoughts on actually being able to financially live in NYC as a fresh grad?

ceras• 12 years ago

By "alone" do you mean not sharing just bedrooms or any rooms? Most new grads share an apartment with roommates but have their own bedroom.

I know many recent grads living in New York (myself included), mostly earning from $60k to $120k, and it's not a problem for any of us. What's tough is settling down with a family. But as a single person - especially with the additional savings you get by not owning a car - it's fine for tech salaries.

To make it more concrete, here's a budget:

$70k starting salary (low for NYC tech)

-$24,500 taxes (overestimated at 35% to be safe)

-$18,000 (1500*12) Manhattan rent + utilities

-$18,000 careless youth living expenses ($1.5k/month subway, eating out, bars, museums, music, traveling, etc)

______

$9,500 left over per year for saving.

So even underestimating salary, overestimating taxes, not choosing a super cheap apartment, and not being frugal in the slightest on monthly living expenses, you still net $9,500 per year.

Mz2• 12 years ago

I am in California. The cost of housing here is galling. But I am here for my health and the cost of housing here is less galling than what my health problems are supposed to cost. Living here helps me stay off medication and out of the ER and out of surgery.

I wish I could go move someplace cheap. Honest, I do. But, for me, staying healthy is the cheap choice.

Those kinds of quality of life issues are sometimes very, very hard to adequately quantify. These articles often do a poor job of addressing that. Price of housing is not the be all and end all of one's life.

qwerta2• 12 years ago

Not sure why you are in California. Health care is bloody expensive there, somewhere else you could afford house AND hospital. And other states offer many outdoor activities as well.

Mz2• 12 years ago

I am here for the climate.

If I don't need medical care because I can breathe without medication, then it matters little what local doctors cost.

qwerta2• 12 years ago

I think best way with startup is to choose cheap base to stay permanently and travel a bit. I just returned from New York, planning trip to Berlin next month and hike in Anatolia after that. In between I will enjoy summer house on Greek beach, I also rent permanent apartment in Athens. My total (including travel) expenses are less than NY rent would be. And did I mention I support wife and kid?

Not So Much ‘New York Poor’ as ‘Pittsburgh Rich’

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