We Have Luxurious Jobs but We Are Not Aware of It

http://blog.gedrap.me/blog/2014/02/27/we-have-luxurious-jobs-but-we-are-not-aware-of-it/

by gedrap • 12 years ago

473 299 12 years ago

blog.gedrap.me

jboons• 12 years ago

It's important to be reminded of this every so often. It definitely helps to get through "tougher days" if you're able to have a little perspective on how great things actually are, or how much worse they could be.

odonnellryan2• 12 years ago

I always wonder what people mean by "tough days."

guptaneil• 12 years ago

The days you don't feel like getting out of bed. The days everything in your project goes wrong. The days you think your idea is actually worthless and you're a fraud. The days you dread your investors asking for a status update. The days Murphy's Law is a bitch. The days you have a bug that just makes no sense. The days your client is being an ass and you have no desire to deal with them. The days your boss is in a bad mood. The days that one douchey coworker just keeps getting in your face.

The days that make you wish you were doing something else.

I'm sure you've had "tough days"

dclowd9901• 12 years ago

You're right! We should be paying them to do what we're doing! I've had it all backward!

spindritf• 12 years ago

Yes, working from home is great. It is a luxury. Working at your own pace is also nice.

But working "on the Internet" means you're also comparing yourself to the best, brightest, and driven. Then it seems like you're achieving maybe 10% of what you seemingly could be, because you're setting your own goals based on what you see out there.

It's like getting stuck in traffic. You can point out that I'm sitting in climate-controlled car, listening to a podcast, drinking coffee, having a better time than 99% of humans throughout history. It's true. I know it's true. And I'm still frustrated that I can't go faster, and I rock in my seat every time I move ahead a little as if trying to propel the car forward. It's irrational, that's the point, no amount of explaining will make it go away.

vehementi3• 12 years ago

no amount of explaining will make it go away

Tell that to everyone who comes to terms with it and is at peace or is content and thankful for their situation?

herokusaki• 12 years ago

Honest question: how numerous are such people?

On that note, is being content a skill most can learn with effort or does it have significant biological prerequisites (genetics, prenatal environment, etc)?

I'd appreciate links to studies on the matter.

aasarava• 12 years ago

So what is the hack that keeps us from constantly taking our luxuries for granted? Just as with the traffic situation, how often do we find ourselves complaining about having to do the laundry or the dishes or vacuuming or even heating up something for dinner -- all fairly small and easy tasks thanks to the help of technology, which took much more time and labor in a previous generation?

Yes, it's true that the complaining pushes us to find ways to make our lives even easier. But in the meantime, why are we unable to sustain our enjoyment for what we've got? If we could just change our thinking on this and begin to appreciate the amazing place we've reached on a more regular basis, imagine how much happier we'd all be. But what's the hack to do that?

TallGuyShort• 12 years ago

I was given some brilliant advice by an older gentleman once: he said to find 1 or 2 things that enjoy more than most people, to let yourself really enjoy those things, and be modest in all other things - and then you'll really be happy, but be able to give more to those less fortunate. For instance, he loved music, and he splurged to have a high-quality system in his car. And he focused on really enjoying that, cut back in the rest of his life and gave more to charity, and still felt like he was "living the life".

I've done the same thing. I love watching a good movie at the end of the day, and I love visiting my home town. So I bought myself a nice TV, I take regular trips back home, and I feel like I have it made all the time. I drive a very modest vehicle and live in a very modest place, but I really appreciate how I live now and try to focus the rest of my resources on others.

learc83• 12 years ago

So what is the hack that keeps us from constantly taking our luxuries for granted?

There is no hack. Humans are wired to seek novelty. Novelty by definition wears off. The best thing I've found is to try to seek novelty in creating rather than consuming, but our very nature ensures contentedness is an elusive goal.

Many people attempt to attain contentedness through religion. I'm religious myself, but I think that man was made to create, and to improve the world, so being content with the status quo isn't really something I've tried to work on.

That being said, I think that it is important to attempt to be thankful for what you have while still working towards the future.

RyanZAG• 12 years ago

Going camping with a tent for a fairly extended period generally works well (and serves as great exercise and a holiday, too). Try to do this low tech though, eg. walking a good distance from your car so you can't use the car battery etc. When you spend 2 hours making a fire and getting some hot soup it gives you a chance to think about how easy it usually is.

zaphar• 12 years ago

Complaining is often a result of comparing our situation to the rest of the environment. When you are sitting in your car in traffic you see that other lane moving faster than you and you get frustrated. When you are at that amazing job you see that other guy two job levels above you with even more perks.

If you only surround yourself with an environment where you don't quite measure up then your baseline gets set two high. You need to recalibrate.

I recalibrate by doing Charity work. And I don't mean just writing a check. I roll up my sleeves and actually engage with people in less fortunate circumstances. Work in a soup kitchen or a food pantry. Volunteer to repair or rebuild someones house when they can't afford to or a tragedy has struck.

It exposes you to people who haven't had the breaks that you had and also helps raise the standard of living for someone less fortunate or lucky and that helps keep your baseline from getting to high.

epaladin2• 12 years ago

I think we'll really need to start treating mindfulness as a fundamental life skill. I've realized only recently how essential it will be to develop in order to get much of anything out of life, given my mindset up to this point. Maybe some cultures are better about this; I certainly don't have the information on which to base generalizations. I have seen an increasing number of resources focused on stress reduction via mindfulness (also see Google Trends), but the potential benefits go beyond just stress.

Awareness, without making comparisons. That should be the key. I can't validate that myself yet though...

josephjrobison• 12 years ago

Set aside a certain number of days, during which you shall be content with the scantiest and cheapest fare, with coarse and rough dress, saying to yourself the while: “Is this the condition that I feared?” - Seneca

nwienert• 12 years ago

I think this is as good a time as any to share my favorite speech on this topic, This Is Water by David Foster Wallace[1]

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI

gdrulia• 12 years ago

In my opinion this is wrong comparison. Simply because there is no physical obstacles that prevents you from doing what you have to do at your work, while in traffic there is plenty, hence the reason you're in traffic.

Such comparison alone distorts the view and paves the way to start to think that your minds lazy thoughts ("virtual obstacles") is actually something real, something you can't control.

In my personal experience, the moment you stop thinking about how hard it is to concentrate on a task and you start doing it, is the very moment when all those lazy thoughts disappears and you're back on empty "autobahn".

countrybama243• 12 years ago

So what is the hack that keeps us from constantly taking our luxuries for granted?

Meditation, traveling to developing countries, constantly reminding yourself how much you enjoy little things like music, coffee, talking to friends etc. Works for me at least.

Nothing like going without a hot shower or first world plumbing for several weeks can make you appreciate all the little luxuries we enjoy.

dpweb• 12 years ago

Gratitude

thothamon• 12 years ago

It's old-fashioned, but give this a try. The hack is simply to write down (typing is OK) five things you're grateful about.

For example, related to your job, you may work with technology that is fun or hot in the market, or better than what you were doing 5 or 10 years ago. Your co-workers no doubt have at least some positive qualities, so write "I am grateful that my co-workers have a good sense of humor," for example.

You may be fortunate to be making as much money as you are, or working in the conditions you have.

This is especially good for things that are an important part of your life, but which you may feel frustration or anxiety toward, such as your job, your relationships, the initiatives or projects you're working on, etc. But even for things that are a downright negative, such as sickness, you can still be grateful. For example, a sickness might have given you perspective on the important things in life, or helped you behave in a healthier manner.

Try writing down five things to be grateful about every day, and maybe again if you're feeling strong negative emotions about the subject, and see if your overall emotional posture toward the subject improves over a period of two weeks.

dnr• 12 years ago

There's "negative visualization" and "voluntary discomfort", as described here: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/02/what-is-stoicism-a...

(I haven't really tried negative visualization, but I suppose I occasionally do some voluntary discomfort.)

benrhughes• 12 years ago

Study Stoicism or Buddhism (if you don't like the religious aspect, it's easy enough to only focus on the philosophical - that's what I do).

There's a surprising amount of overlap between the two. I always liked Buddhism conceptually, but it never really clicked with me. Stoicism on the other hand feels quite natural. Maybe it's a anglo-centric thing.

At the root of both philosophies is the realization of impermanence of all things. Recognizing (and really feeling) this impermanence goes a long way to helping you to mindfully appreciate what you have.

To give you the flavour of what I mean, some Stoic practices include:

- negative visualisation: imagine what it will be like when thing/person X is no longer in your life (which is inevitable). This, somewhat counter-intuitively, brings you into the present and helps you enjoy what you have.

- periodic self deprivation: go a week without your smartphone, or hot showers. This does two things: it teaches you that you can survive without something you're attached to, and also lets you appreciate it. In some ways the essence of Buddhism and Stoicism is "appreciation without attachment".

Stoicism is very practical - Epictetus, Seneca etc basically set you homework. The foundational principle is that there are 2 classes of things: those completely within your control, and everything else. Happiness, freedom and living a good life come focusing your energy on the first class, and being indifferent to the second. The "homework" is about helping you practically interact with the world from that perspective.

edit: for further reading, I'd recommend Irvine's A Guide To The Good Life. Although I find reading Epictetus and Seneca much more enlightening, Irvine is a nice on-ramp.

danielweber• 12 years ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill

logfromblammo9• 12 years ago

Yesterday, I wrote a sentence that encapsulates very well how we adjust to technological luxuries: "I searched the web for 'singing hemorrhoid' and the first video result is lame."

When I re-read it, I realized that being alive in 2014 is unbelievably awesome.

Then the conversation went straight into "Four Yorkshiremen".

A: In my day, we were grateful for just one singing hemorrhoid video. B: And we had to download it from Usenet binaries. C: In RealMedia format. Me: And part 51 of 117 was missing. A: And we had to use bauds. Me: I had a demibaud modem. C: Luxury! We had to make our own punchcards and send'm through the mail. B: At least you had mail. We stapled our punchcards to passing hobos and hoped they made it somewhere with a router.

markkanof2• 12 years ago

I'd add that not only are we comparing ourselves to actual people that are the "best and brightest", but also to a mental conglomeration of success stories that somehow feel like they are all done by a single super human even though rationally you know you are thinking of the small individual achievements of thousands or millions of other people.

In the face of that kind of comparison, it's hard not to a bit down occasionally, even though you know the reality does not match the perception.

TsomArp• 12 years ago

Exactly what I was thinking the other day. You came to HW, for example, and it seems it is just one very bright person when in fact it is thousands.

mcantelon• 12 years ago

This is called relative deprivation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_deprivation) and Malcolm Gladwell's book "David and Goliath" has some interesting examples of its destructive power, such as when bright students enroll in STEM courses in top-tier schools, but end up dropping out from STEM because the amount of students smarter than them discourages them.

tracker1• 12 years ago

I think it comes down to discovering your role... I'm not the best at any one thing I've ever done. I'm generally very good, and tend to have a greater combination of depth and breadth of knowledge than my peers... but any one thing, not nearly the best.

That's a hard lesson to learn, and accept... I think my goal in life is to accept my circumstance with contentment, whatever that is at any given time.

Shivetya• 12 years ago

but do most people actually do the comparison, even once? Working on the internet also imparts a lot of anonymity. Your just one of thousands of people doing a similar job, maybe clients just assume this is what to expect, or like how many other things in the world are handled, its good enough to not expend further effort in finding better.

Still IT is a breeze, having grown up on a farm I feel lazy even when I do a sixty hour week. Having worked in low end jobs as an adult when times were bad I have great respect for those who do and never really feel at home amongst those who never have.

Still, working at home is awesome, but no matter how many others tell me that my job or similar is challenging all I have to do is look outside see the garbage man, see the lawn people, see people building house, and not think - damn I got it good.

First world problems is a meme on reddit that fits us well

vitd• 12 years ago

But working "on the Internet" means you're also comparing yourself to the best, brightest, and driven.

This reminds me of something that happened to me a few years ago. My spouse and I bought a condo in a very expensive area of a big city. We realized we were very lucky to have stock options that were worth real money to sell and pay for a downpayment on the place. I felt a little like we were "cheaters" or "fakers" because the other people in the building seemed so successful. It felt like we hadn't "earned" the money since it was pretty much luck getting the options at the right time.

The guy above us in his 50s had his own business - some lighting stores or something. The lady next to us was about our age (late 30's at the time) and was an event planner and had done the work for some famous awards show recently. The couple below us were retired, and the husband had been a highly-paid salesman. etc.

A few months in, we learn that the guy above us doesn't actually own his condo. It's owned by a trust set up by his family. The lady next door co-owns it with her father who paid for most it. The couple downstairs actually did own theirs the "normal" way, but they seemed like the only ones in the building. It was really eye-opening. We were no less successful or lucky than the other people in the building. Most of them had "cheated" in some way, too, and comparing ourselves to them in that way was pointless. Did I work any less hard than the lighting guy or the event planner? Hell no! Did they "earn" their condos any more than me? Not at all. They were no more or less successful than us or anyone else in the building, it just looked that way at first.

purplelobster• 12 years ago

I never complain about recruiters. The fact that I'm being contacted spontaneously is completely a positive for me, and it gives me some confidence that if I were to look for a job again, my skills are in demand enough that I will never starve.

waylandsmithers• 12 years ago

I've always found it a little off-putting when people complain about this. I get that it's probably annoying, and good for them for being in demand. But it still comes off as a humblebrag.

oacgnol• 12 years ago

Can't a man walk down the street without being offered a job?

wnevets• 12 years ago

the problem is if you think about it for longer than a minute you realize the recruiters are simply doing keyword searches and blind spamming as many people as possible.

CmonDev• 12 years ago

"We shouldn’t forget that there is life outside our communities." - yes, let's not forget there are lawyers, doctors, actors, pilots, CEOs and other occupations that earn much more without having to re-learn a new API every year... Let's not forget that major companies in e.g. Silicon Valley are known for actively suppressing the salary growth. IMHO we are still underpaid and under-appreciated.

genericuser• 12 years ago

I view the constant learning and changing requirements of careers in software development to be one of its largest advantages and draws over, how I imagine some of those careers you listed are (others like lawyers and doctors I am certain have their own knowledge bases they have to learn constantly). I get to learn a new or modified API, language, or project domain every year if not more frequently, and I love it. You viewing it as 'having to re-learn a new API every year' indicates to me that you view it as a negative.

In regards to the under appreciated part, I also was well aware this wasn't a job like fire fighting or being a doctor where I was going to be appreciated on a daily basis, or even a job like teaching where I would get the occasional student that appreciated me making all the thankless bastards I had to deal with hopefully worth it.

I mean there is no reason you shouldn't try to find a place where you personally don't have to re-learn stuff every year, and are appreciated. But I like learning and being appreciated adds no value to me, I assume at least some others feel the same.

I am always in favor of being paid more, but I would be hard pressed to argue why I should be.

logfromblammo9• 12 years ago

The ability to continue learning new things (and also implementing them) over the course of your entire career may be less common than you think.

Doctors and lawyers have a large body of working knowledge that they must learn, but the portion relevant to their specific practice might not change that much over their entire career. Software writers can get started on a tiny corpus of knowledge, but a huge portion of it has to be updated on a nearly constant basis.

It's like accelerating over the entire length of a foot race, except instead of sprinting the 50m dash, you are running an ultramarathon. By the time you retire, you have already forgotten more things than most people have ever bothered to learn.

I have already written software for doctors and nurses, lawyers and paralegals, rocket scientists, aircraft pilots, and other software writers like me. Every job required learning a significant amount of domain knowledge, even if only on a temporary basis. As a result, that quote by Heinlein from Time Enough for Love--the one about specialization being for insects--definitely applies. I can now convincingly bullshit any non-expert on practically any topic after only about 2 days of Internet research.

That's because I have learned to identify and focus upon the core elements of a problem and discard all irrelevancies. It may be odd to you, since you probably have the same skill now, but the vast majority of humanity is completely incapable of viewing a problem objectively. That is why we are valuable. We are the Professors surrounded by billions of Gilligans. We are the MacGyvers in a world of ticking time bombs. Bunsen and Beeker to a bunch of talking animals. Lisa Simpsons beset by Homers. Farnsworths (and Wernstroms) babysitting Benders and Frys.

That's why we get paid the big bucks.

jp555• 12 years ago

Not your IMHO, you mean due to your out-group homogeneity bias. Pilots are generally NOT paid well, and the idea that lawyers and doctors don't have to constantly be retraining is ludicrous. Even actors and CEOs must constantly learn & adapt to maximize their reputation management. APIs are NOTHING compared to the effort of trying to be and stay popular.

ForHackernews6• 12 years ago

What a weird set of purported counterexamples to the inconvenience of learning new APIs.

Lawyers and doctors certainly have continuing education requirements. There are constant changes to legal codes and precedent, and advances in medical technologies and practices. In the US, if a lawyer wants to practice in a different state, they will typically have to study local laws and re-take the state bar exam.

Actors are mostly unemployed and broke, and even the successful ones are constantly memorizing new roles and auditioning for new parts. Pilots must undergo significant training and certification in order to qualify to fly different types of aircraft. CEOs have to learn about and adapt to changing business circumstances, or else the entire company could go under.

sspiff• 12 years ago

I have the option to work from home, but I dislike doing so, specifically because it makes it easy for me to slack and procrastinate, and because I dislike bringing my work into my home environment.

I can use the prying eyes of my peers to guilt me into getting work done, sometimes. I also much prefer to be able to stand up, walk over to someones desk, and discuss a problem (or some newly discovered exoplanet, or the price of bitcoins, ...). Picking up a phone, sending an instant message or email just isn't the same thing.

However, I'm very much aware about what a luxurious situation I'm in. I live in one of the wealthiest countries in the world, get to do a job I love (most of the time), and get paid plenty. Compared to most places in the world, this place 50 years ago or even to other professions in the same country, I'm a lucky bastard.

Doesn't mean I sometimes have a hard time concentrating, or would like to be doing something other than the work assigned to me though, but I think that's normal and would happen to anyone in any situation. First world problems, eh?

gabriel34• 12 years ago

There is always someone worse off than you, that doesn't mean your complaints are invalid unless you live in a communist utopia.

imjared• 12 years ago

I'm sitting at home with no commute, listening to music out of my computer speakers, in a house that's heated to my liking and I'm wearing sweatpants. For lunch I'll be baking a hot, fresh meal. At some point this afternoon I'll probably take a short nap to refresh myself.

I'm pretty aware of it.

rckclmbr• 12 years ago

I had a bad commute this morning, because I stubbed my toe on the way to the computer room. Also, I'm not wearing any pants.

rjknight5• 12 years ago

No, we do not have luxurious jobs. Other people have really really shitty jobs.

Software developers are just getting the kind of relative pay and conditions improvements that a much larger number of people took for granted in the 60s and 70s. It's everyone else who is fucked.

Touche4• 12 years ago

This.

We enrich "business guys" with connections to billion dollar exits while we ourselves make middle-class or slightly upper-middle class wages. Meanwhile anyone willing to take out the loans to put themselves through Dental school will eventually make more than we do and if they have the motivation to open up their own practice, much more than we do.

throwaway812• 12 years ago

I agree with the sentiment, but I think your facts are a bit off and reflect HN insularity. The median 33% household income ("middle class") in the US is $30,000 to $62,500 (household).

Even if you are the sole earner in your household, it is still unlikely that you make less than $62,500. If you do make less than that, ask for a raise. If you don't make less than that, or your combined household income is more than that, you are a member of the upper class, and you should try and remember your privilege. (Hey, life's not so bad.)

andykmaguire• 12 years ago

Many (or most) of the great technology companies have technical founders that benefit tremendously from a successful exist. Equating "business guys" with "the man" who get all the benefit and engineers as the poor labor is misguided and ignores basic facts.

Every technology startup that blows up have people with engineering backgrounds in positions of senior management. Across levels of seniority, engineers often make as much or more money as their non-technical counterparts. If you want to stay at the individual contributor level as an engineer that is, of course, totally fine, but you should compare yourself to other IC's in the organization without technical skills. I think you will find yourself to be very well positioned financially.

gohrt• 12 years ago

You think dentistry is a luxury? Half the time is chasing down nonpying clients, the other half is doing disgusting physical labor.

cwaniak3• 12 years ago

97% of people want to work. Like to code. That's what they want to do. And they expect the other 3% to organize these jobs for them. Because they don't know/can't/aren't interested in organizing these jobs on their own. It really boils down to: do you want to be a craftsman or wealthy man. Because if you want to be in the 3% organizing jobs for others, you won't have any time to do coding. It's very easy to end up in the mental trap of: "I just want to code" expecting to see the prize for all the hard work. But the prize always goes to the job "organizer" or creator and not to the one doing it. Never forget that.

Tyrannosaurs4• 12 years ago

An experienced software developer earns perhaps double the national average wage in the UK, depending on where they are in the country (it may be considerably more than double, it is never less than comfortably above the average).

Real wages are below their early 70s peak by about 14% right now.

By my calculation that puts an average programmer in a considerably better position than most people would have been seeing even in the early 70s.

We have luxurious jobs.

That's not to say we don't earn it, just that any suggestion that we're not well off both relative to the average and relative to any point in history doesn't stack up.

Nursie2• 12 years ago

Pay in the UK is awful for a lot of middle-earning jobs like ours.

The US and Australia pay far more. I basically had to go contract when I got back here so that I could match the money.

yitchelle• 12 years ago

I am not sure if you are trolling or not. Maybe I have read your comment incorrectly.

There are some people in this world that are working in their job because of circumstances beyond their control. Just look at the folks in North Korea or most parts of Africa.

Those of us who have "luxurious" jobs did have a choice, those other folks don't.

rjknight5• 12 years ago

I'm not trolling.

I'm saying that software developer lifestyles only look good because of the terribly poor conditions many other people work in, both in developed economies and in more obviously poverty-stricken places. We're lucky not to be those people, but to me "luxury" implies either greed or wastefulness - that as software developers we're getting some kind of unreasonably good deal from the world. I don't think we are. I think more people should get the kind of deal that software developers do.

Sure, in relative terms you can say that developers are lucky. But I'm not sure it makes much sense to say "you're lucky that you don't live in poverty", because we should consider modestly affluent lifestyles to be the norm and poverty to be the aberration that needs to be explained.

kohanz• 12 years ago

This is semantics. The point is, relatively speaking, our jobs offer good conditions to the average circumstances.

badman_ting3• 12 years ago

True enough, but I don't think that should be the horizon. It's worth looking at the system in which we exist, and why the other jobs are so shitty. That goes way beyond semantics.

rjknight5• 12 years ago

Yeah, you're right. But "luxurious" has connotations that go beyond "good conditions". It's not a luxury to be treated with dignity and respect, paid decently and allowed to make time for your family. That should be normal, and the real problem is that it isn't normal for enough people.

clusterfoo• 12 years ago

The fact that we have careers decent enough that we are not dehumanized on a daily basis or expected to work in depressing, unhealthy, sometimes dangerous conditions for just enough pay to scrape by should not be seen as luxury; it should be the norm.

And considering the value developers bring to companies, and comparing our salaries to other positions, developers in general are underpaid. It's perfectly reasonable to demand more perks.

But I guess this is why we have a lower class: to keep the worker bees on their toes. "See how good you have it? You could end up like one of them."

FLUX-YOU• 12 years ago

Everyone's underpaid because employers need to make a profit on you. If you bring a million in sales, and turn around and demand a million, then the company hasn't made anything. How much profit a company should be making on its developers is a different story.

And really, not all developers are mentally taxed for 8 hours a day. Some might do routine tasks for 2 or hours and then browse HN for the remaining 6, or just go right home. The labor market for developers is no where near efficient in this regard.

But really, if a high salary and benefits and perks aren't a luxury job, then what is a luxury job exactly?

ryanmarsh3• 12 years ago

Maybe in the industrialized world. Your frame is too small. Zoom out a bit. Put the entire 7B of us in the picture. Now, do you have a luxurious job? The answer is yes.

squigs25• 12 years ago

I agree with this.

Look, if you don't enjoy programming/data/technology then you're probably in the wrong field.

But I think it's ok to have to force yourself to work on the stuff you don't enjoy as much. You just need to have adequate enjoyment from what you do, and the self discipline to do what you enjoy doing. At the end of the day, you're lucky to enjoy what you're doing half of the time, and to be making many times more than the rest of the world's population could make.

eterpstra• 12 years ago

The Oatmeal pretty much summed up 6pm of every weeknight of my life (I'm a stay-at-home developer, my wife is a medical resident) http://theoatmeal.com/comics/making_things

gcp• 12 years ago

1000x thanks for linking this. Hadn't seen it yet.

mantas• 12 years ago

Hooray to good current days!

I wouldn't call that luxurious job though. It's just that good programmers are hard to find, thus salaries go up. It's the same in all jobs that require specific skills that are relatively hard to learn. Doctors, lawyers, even skilled construction workers make a ton if they're good at their craft.

And programming is not that easy when you think about it. I keep learning new stuff every day in addition to paid hours. When I get stuck at smth, I keep working on my head during night or weekend. I feel responsible for my code quality and try to make it as good as possible by going extra mile. My GF (who earns 6x less) comes from work and relaxes till her next shift. When I finish work, that means I don't stare at screen, but I still keep it in my head.

I know bad programmers who make shitty wage for shitty code. I wouldn't call their jobs luxurious in any way. I feel sorry for for people in other fields whose skills are undervalued though.

P.S. Greetings from Vilnius

badman_ting3• 12 years ago

Speaking to my father once, he told me "Man, you got the tiger by the tail." I try not to forget it. I don't always succeed at that.

He was more right than he knew -- maybe a couple years after he told me that, the business whose revenues he tripled decided they didn't like him, fired him, and he has been looking for work and underemployed ever since. He used to have a yacht, now he works at a chain hardware store.

jader2012• 12 years ago

My wife, whose dad is a coal miner and works harder in one day than I've had to my entire career, cannot figure out why I'm able to work from home whenever I want, and why my boss isn't firing me because I often sleep in and don't get online or make it into the office until maybe an hour after my "normal" hours.

Or how I can "just take off" whenever I need to go to the doctor, or for one of my sons' doctor's appointments or events at school.

I've never known what it was like to not have this flexibility. I expect this flexibility, and will not work for an employer that will not give me this flexibility.

And these expectations only increase as I get further into my career or change jobs. I'm even considering taking a contracting position making 80% less and working 80% less, so I can spend 20% doing my own (productive) thing. What other profession allows this?

So yes, I definitely think I personally take this for granted, and feel in a way I'm spoiled, or at the very least desensitized to the fact that a large majority have it way more difficult than I do. I do try to keep this in mind, though, but it is hard in the day-to-day grind.

So thanks for the reality check.

GuiA• 12 years ago

I would also expect those things from an employer, and hope that my kids and grand kids have it even better than me on that front.

Generations before us have fought so that we, as people, wouldn't have to endure the working conditions of coal miners forever.

markkanof2• 12 years ago

Do you mean 80% less or 80% of what you currently make? You make good points either way, just curious.

jader2012• 12 years ago

Oh, sorry, 80% of what I currently make. Big difference. :)

samstave• 12 years ago

No, I am keenly, almost obsessively aware of how lucky I am and how fragile my situation can be.

I have three kids, a stay at home wife, make a considerable salary and have a job I absolutely love and excel at.

But I am still fundamentally subsisting; my living expenses are just covered by what I make and am not able to save a considerable amount. This scares the bejesus out of me because all my kids are young: I have lots of expenses coming up related to providing well for them.

The most important thought I have daily, which was reinforced by the subtext of this article, is that education is the most important thing I can give to my kids.

When there are people who are "struggling to find a minimum wage job for years" to me, that means that they lack the education or skills to have a job that pays more and is in more demand. This is a failing of many parties - but it's the base of the issue.

I want my kids to be able to do whatever it is they want, but to have the skills to actually make that decision for themselves.

So, I am profoundly a aware of my position, am thankful for it and am working to ensure that I provide my children an even better life than my already great one.

redblacktree• 12 years ago

I addressed that fragility in my own life by following most of Dave Ramsey's advice. If you're in debt and you're not budgeting strictly, I humbly suggest that you pick up one of his books and start today.

For a bit of inspiration: I started the process with about $47k in debt. This included student loans, auto loans, and credit cards. After 19 months of working on "baby step #2," I've reduced that debt to $10k, and I expect to have it fully paid by August of this year. I used to feel as you do, about the fragility of my situation, and I now feel much much better, since my monthly expenses have reduced by about $700 (due to no longer needing to service that debt), and soon I'll feel better still, as I accumulate an emergency fund of 6 months' living expenses.

Obviously, I can't know your personal situation or your specific challenges, so take this advice from a stranger on the internet for what it's worth. If you can benefit from it though, you will feel so much better about your situation.

Take care.

biafra2• 12 years ago

Why does your wife not work? Lack of daycare in your area? Lack of work opportunities for her in your area?

gd1• 12 years ago

She does work. She has three children to raise.

aidenn05• 12 years ago

I have three kids as well, and have some small hope to offer (assuming your kids are young): once the kids are at elementary school age, the financial situation gets a bit easier. After school activities typically cost less than preschool, and your wife may be able to get part-time work at that point.

Also note: with 3 kids, there is likely no place in the US where it is cheaper to send your kids to a mediocre private school than to just move to a better school district (unless you live in a rural area where your commute would severely be affected). That's one thing that I would most like to change at a policy level, but it's something that in the short-term will affect decisions you make.

tapostrophemo• 12 years ago

"...cheaper...to just move to a better school district..."

Unless, of course, you're stuck underwater in a house that you'd lose lots of money on if you sold it.

randomdata• 12 years ago

When there are people who are "struggling to find a minimum wage job for years" to me, that means that they lack the education or skills to have a job that pays more and is in more demand.

I'm not sure I agree. There are plenty of "low-skill", reasonably high paying jobs. The problem is that when you're in a cycle of having no money, you spend all your time managing what money you can get ahold of and trying to get quick cash influxes to keep the bills paid. You don't have the resources to sit back and plan a more stable path for yourself.

seunosewa• 12 years ago

After your second kid, it should have been quite clear to you that you would not be able to have a third kid and save as much as you should. Why did you choose to have the 3rd kid?

dabent• 12 years ago

Early on in my career, I put my resume out to look for another job after a layoff. Recruiters nearly called me around the clock. I expressed frustration after the third call in a row in front of my wife. She reminded me what a blessing it was to have so many people trying to get me work and so many opportunities available, most which would give me a raise.

He father struggled after layoffs to find work in his profession, with long gaps between jobs. I realized how blessed I was to be in this line of work and stopped complaining, even about the copy/paste emails.

That said, there are different levels of competency in each profession, and recruiters are just as prone to rookie mistakes and lazy work as coders are. I have the luxury of working only with good recruiters and can filter the rest easily.

I've also lived through relatively scarce times (2002) when it was hard to get a recruiter to return my calls. I can imagine that many recruiters and firms went under and know people involved in software who had to scramble to find work (myself included). That does help me appreciate the 90% of my career that work has been plentiful.

beachstartup4• 12 years ago

technology workers complaining about recruiters is analogous to young, attractive people complaining about people hitting on them constantly. it sets off the same b.s. detectors in my brain.

to me, it's really just a childish and transparent way of bragging. even reasonable people slip into these modes when they are faced with an abundance of opportunity, most of which they don't want or feel are beneath them.

hnal943• 12 years ago

Yeah, but I think the problem with cut-and-paste recruiter spam is that it's not really an opportunity. Most of the "offers" I get don't match my skillset and would not result in a job even if I pursued them. They simply increase the noise in the channel and don't add any value to anyone.

logfromblammo9• 12 years ago

This is further compounded by the likelihood that the jobs advertised may be sham postings that are only being spammed out to you to fulfill legal requirements for restricted visas held by imported workers.

For your own amusement, try responding to one or two, and see what happens.

It isn't quite so posh when you discover that the job opportunities constantly streaming into your inbox don't actually exist.

beachstartup4• 12 years ago

the problem with going to bars is that everyone who hits on me is not really my type. most of the 'offers' i get are from fatties and uglies or losers, and would not result in a relationship even even if i decided to sleep with them. these people simply increase the noise at the bar and don't add value to anyone.

oh my god it's just like, so annoying, you know? faux outrage

seivan• 12 years ago

60 hour work week to meet a marketing deadline. No thanks. If I could get a 1/3 for a job that has no requirement of producing something and fixed hours. That way I can code for myself.

doktrin2• 12 years ago

I consider myself very fortunate, despite having a very strict [e.g. practically nonexistent] work-from-home allowance. It's not something I take lightly, for better and worse.

For instance, at the moment I spend ~40 hrs in the office and ~40hrs in grad school and on side projects. As a result, I have very little time available for leisure or even meaningful relationships. My extra-work effort is driven in part by a fear of skill obsolescence, and competition with my peers - who are among the best in the world at what they do.

At times I wonder if my priorities are a little backwards, but at times I feel so driven I'm not sure I could truly relax even if I wanted to.

sergiotapia2• 12 years ago

Yes we make more money, but we also take our work with us and the stress that comes along with mentally taxing work.

It's 11pm and I might be thinking of a problem at work I've been tangling for for the past 4 days.

A gardner or a construction worker leaves work and _leaves work_, you feel me?

Tyrannosaurs4• 12 years ago

And your'e stacking that up against the stress the gardener or construction worker has of losing their job and not having a million other options, or not being able to support medical insurance for their family because of what they earn?

Even excluding that, having worked in a fairly brain dead job I found the stress of 9 hours a day doing something that dull WAY more stressful than being able to use my mind but being under some pressure to do so.

sergiotapia2• 12 years ago

I'm not saying "we have problems, 'they' don't". I'm illustrating the fact that EVERYBODY has problems. Software development isn't all peachy 100% of the time. [Let's call it 80% of the time ;)]

edabobojr• 12 years ago

As opposed to the nurse who lost a patient, the social worker who has to remove a child from their home, a teacher that gets to see all of problems kids bring from homes, many aspects of being a police officer, etc?

Tyrannosaurs4• 12 years ago

Talking to a one time girlfriend who is an obstetrician while she was at work one day she said "better go, I need to deliver this woman's baby".

"Hope it goes well", I replied.

"It won't" she said, "the baby is already dead".

That put every shitty day I've ever had at work in context.

Not saying we don't have bad days, we do, just there are some things that thankfully we'll never come face to face with.

aestra3• 12 years ago

REALLY!?

Software engineering is one of the lowest stress jobs out there. I've worked some stressful jobs, and software engineering doesn't even compare. For example try getting yelled at and sworn at and personally attacked regularly. You really have it good if you find your job to be so stressful.

Believe it or not a LOT of people take work home with them, and its something you gotta work on not doing. Not job specific.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1000142405274870472310...

http://careers.unc.edu/blogs/career-exploration/top-10-most-...

http://www.businessinsider.com/high-paying-jobs-for-people-w...

grdeken• 12 years ago

It's basic economics. A lot of people can mine coal or cook a burger. Not a lot of people can write or design software. The demand outweighs the supply and hence, leverage exists for those smart enough to take advantage of it.

More importantly, engineers earn a fraction of the value they create for employers.

It's the lawyers we should all be scoffing at...

manuletroll2• 12 years ago

While this might be true for a large portion of HN's audience, there are also developers stuck in shitty positions in countries where making $100K writing software is a pipe dream. I'd be happy if I was paid a third of that.

mcv• 12 years ago

I don't make $100K either. But together with my wife's income, we've still got it pretty comfortable. You don't need $100K to live comfortably.

manuletroll2• 12 years ago

Indeed, and I certainly don't need $100K either. I don't even live in an area where the cost of living is especially high, but I currently make less than what I was earning working on an assembly line in a factory. While I'm not dirt-poor I'm unable to make any savings or plans for the future. As I don't have much aside, I can't really try my luck in a better area as moving is not free. At least I'm only responsible for myself, so there's that.

jeena• 12 years ago

Those other people, the OP is talking about, I know many of them. Many of my friends are unemployed. But even though I tried really hard to convince those of whom I thought had the head to do it, to start a IT education, or at least start learning to code at home while they have no job yet. Still I wasn't able to convince anyone. They all said that it is too hard and not something they are interested in.

That was kind of sad that they would rather sit around waiting for a low payed job instead of investing some efford for a brighter future.

I understand that not everybody is able do learn the stuff we do but many people just don't want to.

raverbashing• 12 years ago

About working from home: I won't do it again, unless needed

I will go somewhere else (rent a room/desk if needed) and I'll work there.

Going from "work mode" to "home mode" is very important

"Living in the bubble of Hacker News does distort the perspective. We tend to ignore how luxurious our jobs are. We shouldn’t forget that there is life outside our communities."

Oh this applies to many more things than jobs.

aestra3• 12 years ago

I will go somewhere else (rent a room/desk if needed) and I'll work there.

It is important when working from home to have a "work area" which is only for work and nothing else. When you work from your bed you get in trouble.

danielsamuels• 12 years ago

If you really don't like recruiters, feel free to send them to http://www.rankarecruiter.co.uk/ - it's a joke side designed to waste their time, just like they waste ours.

seanccox2• 12 years ago

Let's be careful with that term, "luxury". You're a well-paid and comparatively comfortable wage slave, but just because you don't have to labor in a mine or a burger joint doesn't mean you are experiencing luxury.

Luxury is what these people are living: http://www.forbes.com/billionaires/

We would all do well to remember that the first 85 people on that list have as much wealth as the 3.5 billion poorest people in the world: http://www.forbes.com/sites/laurashin/2014/01/23/the-85-rich...

That is luxury – a lifestyle only attainable by an infinitesimally small number of people, and one that they protect with the might of laws they author, politicians they buy, and force they command. It's important to keep sight of where the upper limits of wealth are, lest you get confused about your class or with whom you have the most in common.

nilkn2• 12 years ago

Luxury is relative, is it not? Working in a posh office with a very comfortable salary, very lenient management, and extensive benefits straight out of college is a hell of a lot nicer than laboring in a mine in your 40s, struggling to put food on the table, having no advancement opportunities whatsoever, and rather than getting health care benefits actually suffering health-wise due to the intensity of the labor.

Of course, nobody I know works in a mine. But my job is still generally a bit nicer in most ways than that of all of my friends outside of technology. I realized this when it occurred to me that I worked half as much as my friend who is a physician in residency and yet I actually am paid more. That's kind of ridiculous, isn't it? Of course, he'll get a big pay bump when he finishes residency--but that'll be several years from now, and if things keep going the way they are, my pay will jump up a lot as well.

So let me rephrase that: seasoned developers in Silicon Valley are paid as much or more than licensed family physicians. To find the doctors who beat us squarely in pay, you have to start looking at the radiologists and the surgeons.

A few years ago, I was the math equivalent of the aimless college poet who tugged at his heart for guidance but felt nothing. The poet is now working for nearly minimum wage and I'm now making more than my parents combined. Let's face it: I lucked out. Not as much as Mark Zuckerberg and other billionaires, but relative to most people--definitely.

Vigil• 12 years ago

I don't know if you lucked out. You chose a market-friendly position which you are mentally equipped to do. You might have lucked out in being born in America and being in a stable enough financial position to pursue that career - but after that, it is as much careful planning and work as it is anything else.

Poets choose to be poets knowing that they will most likely never be on stable financial ground. That is not unlucky, it's simply a hardship they've chosen to accept in pursuit of something they'd rather attain than wealth and ease of life.

jaimebuelta2• 12 years ago

It is true that luxury is relative, but, from an external point of view, when I was a kid, I remembered commenting with people how everyone in American movies seemed to be rich, even when depicted as "low middle class" (huge houses, a couple of cars, tons of clothes, toys, etc) We are not talking about having an helicopter, but my family bought our first car when I had 15 years, and live in a relative small flat for 4 people. My father had a well paid job in IT industry and we considered ourselves middle class.

And I am not talking about a really poor country on the third world, but Europe.

As usual, we perceive as rich anyone "an income step above us" that can mean they'll go on holidays to a private island, that they'll go on holidays to Aruba, they'll go on holidays to a rural house, or that they simply go on holidays, period, depending on your income.

I think we focused too much on the "hyper rich" billionaires. A couples of steps down from that is also luxury...

MarkPNeyer• 12 years ago

The point parent is making, i think, is this:

The people running the show can't have everybody thinking 'wow i'm getting fucked' because then the show is over. they need a buffer; people who think they have it really well off because they look at how hard the people below them have it. when the people at the very bottom start to complain about their situation and say they're being screwed by the rich, the people who _think_ they have it well take offense because think they're being blamed. so they fight back.

GregBuchholz2• 12 years ago

We would all do well to remember that the first 85 people on that list have as much wealth as the 3.5 billion poorest people in the world

Does anyone know where to get the raw wealth data for something like this? It might be interesting to know for example, if you have a net worth of $1, that you might have more wealth than the poorest 500 million combined (or whatever).

countrybama243• 12 years ago

http://data.worldbank.org/topic/poverty

rikkus2• 12 years ago

Comparative comfort _is_ luxury, compared to that which most of the people on the planet experience as their daily lives.

wpietri• 12 years ago

One of the interesting things that has happened with the increase in inequality is the ability for more people to say, "No, I'm not rich. that guy is rich." Because as inequality rises, the people you compare yourselves to are much further away than they used to be. That's how people making 10x the median income can, with a straight face, declare themselves to be "middle class". Inequality itself is used to justify other inequality.

Having lived and traveled in developing nations, I am perfectly happy to call what I have "luxury". Which is exactly what most of the world would call it: http://gumption.org/1993/memo/landmarks/global_income.html

logfromblammo9• 12 years ago

When expenses exceed income, misery: when income exceeds expenses, bliss.

ziel• 12 years ago

I agree with you that what we have is luxury compared to much of the world. Like you, I've seen this first-hand.

What I think is often missing from these discussions though, is that working a low paying job in New York City, for example, also affords considerable luxury compared to much of the developing world. That hypothetical person working that low paying job might not feel that s/he is living in luxury -- without some agreement on what constitutes basic comfort, it's quite difficult to define luxury.

The problem, which I think you've identified well, is that even the idea of basic comfort shifts as the economic landscape shifts. When the idea of basic needs shifts, the idea of wealth shifts with it.

In general, I think it's good for those of us living in privileged areas to recognize our blessings. I also think comparisons made to the developing world tend to oversimplify the problems of inequality present here as well.

Also, not to single this comment out on the middle class thing, but I've seen a few comments here which are equating middle class with median income. Middle class is a social construct. It's not well defined.

philwelch• 12 years ago

There's always a bigger fish. But most billionaires seem capable of owning sports teams and single handedly funding large scale philanthropy, so there's some point before then that it stops being just luxury. I don't find this kind of envy you're expressing to be useful, however.

MyNameIsMK• 12 years ago

Dear Recruiter, You are a middleman. Your job is pointless. Your industry will go "kapoom" soon. Enterprising young people are already figuring our ways to automate you out of your job . Take me off your list. I am not a 'lead', or a 'prospective candidate'. Show me the money. That's what she said. Goodbye.

CaptainSwing• 12 years ago

I think that it is important to separate our understanding of relative exploitation/privilege from notions of structural exploitation/privilege.

two points on this.

firstly, luxury is relative. As workers (I know its unpopular in the US, but I, as a developer, would happily call myself, and other developers 'working class' as long as we are handing over the products of our labor for a wage) we are not earning as much money as our bosses expect to make from the product of our labour, therefore however relatively luxurious our work environment and living standards, we must remember that we are still being exploited. The recent revelations about the silicon valley wage cartel (http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2014/01/15/silicon_valle...) show one of the ways in which our wages are kept artificially low.

Secondly, not a critique of your sentiment, but an addendum, there are certain senses that our 'luxurious' jobs are particularly precarious. When labour costs increase the two methods that bosses/capitalists use to maintain a profit are a) employing workers who will accept less and b) automating the work previously don by workers.

More and more we are competing globally for employment, This applies to all industries to some extent (if wages for electronics manufacture get too high in China they will move to Thailand, etc), it is even easier to relocate soft wave developer jobs, as there aren;t the same demands for the movement of physical resources, building new factories, etc.

combine this with the fact that we are constantly creating the 'machines' that will replace us. For example, designing complex web sites is much easier and takes much less work using django, for example, than frm scratch, but that is because django is replacing work that was previously done by workers.

These two methods of keeping labour costs down often combine in the form of deskilling. If we make django do all the tough technical bits we can hire a less experienced worker for less $$.

tl;dr Yes we have 'relatively' luxurious jobs, no that doesn't mean we its not in our interests to get rid of the wage-relation, with all its ridiculous contradictions in an age of plenty as we live in.

mikeash• 12 years ago

Speak for yourself. I sure as hell am aware of it.

If you want to talk about how ridiculously unaware you were about how good you have it, feel free. But please don't imply that I'm somehow equally dumb.

I do my share of complaining, but I understand that when it comes down to it, I am extremely fortunate when it comes to my job.

null_ptr• 12 years ago

So how are we supposed to get to "the future", where people aren't wage slaves any more but instead are free to pursue their real dreams and ambitions, if those of us fortunate enough to make some headway should feel ashamed for having done so? Give me a break.

acuozzo2• 12 years ago

You took the words right out of my mouth. Thanks for posting this.

rikkus2• 12 years ago

Some of us are actually aware of this. It's good to point out what the world is like to people who may not have first hand knowledge, but then they're still not getting any by reading this article. I'd have liked to see the author encourage others to travel, perhaps, whether geographically or economically. It's difficult to have empathy with fellow humans without actual contact.

homakov• 12 years ago

Why compare yourself to unsuccessful people? there are always plenty of them. Almost anyone who can read & do maths can say "i'm smarter than 50% of Earth population" so..

jebus989• 12 years ago

Only 50% of people can say that

epx• 12 years ago

There are hidden sacrifices and costs. 99% of my good friends in this profession took depression medicine at some point of their lives.

ryanmarsh3• 12 years ago

Yes, this. I've had jobs where I worked in the freezing rain, etc. etc. The people cutting your grass are likely better than you. I'll just come out and say it, they are, because their life SUCKS and they get up every day and just do it. They have heart. Many people in our community have a disgusting sense of superiority and entitlement. You just don't understand unless you've been there.

What makes many people in this community vapid isn't that they're uncompassionate towards people who have it harder, it's that they musn't realize how well off they really are. It's not your fault that most of us don't have the perspective that some of us do, but the lack of it is very real.

I've been called an asshole many a time by young privileged employees that complain about the free food, that we have certain core working hours, that yes, you need to be at the team standup on time, and in presentations you should pay attention to the presenter and out of respect put down your device(s). Before someone picks those examples apart, if you are about to, you're missing the point. Relatively speaking chances are you have absolutely nothing to whine about in your work. Nothing.

d23• 12 years ago

Relatively speaking chances are you have absolutely nothing to whine about in your work. Nothing.

The problem with playing this game is that there are always bigger fish, and there are always smaller fish. Do back-breaking work 8 hours a day? At least it's not 10. Do it for 12 hours a day? At least you have a job. Don't have a job? At least you're alive in America. Not from America? Etc.

ryanmarsh3• 12 years ago

It's called gratefulness, and we have none of it.

Tyr42• 12 years ago

Here's the comic for that: http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2314#comic

alecco• 12 years ago

Yeah, I feel luxurious every weekend I spend working on somebody else's code mess.

justinzollars• 12 years ago

Thank you for posting this! I find the Silicon Valley a internally focused place and I think we need more reminders from members of our community that we are the exception and not the rule. Not everyone in the world can be a VC or programmer.

alexeisadeski3• 12 years ago

You significantly understate the luxury which we enjoy, as even the millions of people searching for minimum wage jobs enjoy extreme luxury.

There are hundreds of millions of people living on under $2 per day. And yes, that is adjusted for purchasing power.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Percentage_population_livi...

CodeMage• 12 years ago

It's commendable to want to be grateful for what we have and not take it for granted, but it should never be used as an argument against wanting to improve our lot.

I can understand wanting to share your newly found sense of perspective with everyone else, but I'd like to suggest balancing it a bit with the following excerpt from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:

To Trin Tragula's horror, the shock completely annihilated her brain; but to his satisfaction he realized that he had proved conclusively that if life is going to exist in a Universe of this size, then the one thing it cannot afford to have is a sense of proportion.

moron4hire• 12 years ago

It's this sort of thinking that prevents people from getting help when they let their health slide and get depressed (notice that I didn't say it's this sort of thinking that causes depression. Depression is a disease.)

Yes, "First World Problems", etc. But you have to realize that your problems are actually problems. Just because other people have worse problems doesn't mean you should just suck it up and "take it like a man.

If you're feeling like you just don't want to work today, and that feeling perpetuates for more than a day or two, then you need to do something different than what you're currently doing. We used to call it "in a rut", now we recognize that it's a symptom of depression. And however mild it may be, you wouldn't wait until cancer or a chest cold were really bad until you tried to treat it.

What you need to do differently to treat your mind is going to be unique to you. Maybe it's exercising more, maybe it's sleeping more, maybe it's eating better, maybe it's just getting a hug from someone you love. Just remember, engineer, first fix yourself.

xster• 12 years ago

This is a Facebook post, not an article.

rjurney• 12 years ago

Before I got paid to compute, I drove a forklift and unloaded floor-loaded ocean containers in 150F heat. I'm acutely aware that I'm spoiled to all hell.

Its too bad all students aren't required to perform 'real work' as part of their education.

qwerta2• 12 years ago

Yet another bullshit article.

IT has zero entrance barrier, anyone can pick up tutorial from internet and start software development. Many people give up after they find out that software development is actually very hard.

And work from home is not luxury. Even East Asia textile sweatshops offer work from home. It is just Californian startups who require total control over their minions.

vbuterin• 12 years ago

Even East Asia textile sweatshops offer work from home.

I'd like to learn more about this. Intuitively, it makes sense for something like this to be true; the "workers slaving away at assembly lines in factories 12 hours a day 7 days a week" meme seems a bit too ancient and well-established to be accurate and we definitely don't see that many sources of what the East Asia sweatshop lifestyle is actually like. Any links?

qwerta2• 12 years ago

It is story from asian friend. Every morning her family would collect batch of clothes for sewing and return it finished at evening. Also Japan industry during WW2 worked this way, lot of work was done in family homes, central factories were only used for steel.

balls187• 12 years ago

Logic fail.

"We have it better than people who don't, therefore we shouldn't complain."

shn• 12 years ago

Most of those recruiters do not deserve to be employed in the first place. They lack basic empathy towards job seekers. They talk like they own you. I have not met any of them yet that does not meet this description unfortunately. I think having some power on other people's lives corrupt them.

pmichaud• 12 years ago

There are definitely amazing, luxurious aspects of programming. Something came into view for me recently though, that I never realized before:

When I graduated from high school, I started my own little (tutoring) company, and did software from after that, so I never had the experience of a "normal", hourly job, like retail or coal mining or whatever.

Recently I had an opportunity to do a job like that and the mood struck me to try it out for like a month. I realized something huge about our jobs versus a lot of other jobs:

I make more than $100/hr sitting in my pajamas, and I'm totally blessed. But I work my fucking ass off. My brain is fully engaged, and when I charge you $125 for an hour of my time, you got more than that value, because I was working, firing on all cylinders.

What I realized in this other job was that even though I worked like 10 hours, it felt like I didn't do much because... I didn't. My coworkers and I, we did some stuff, chatted, laughed a bit, did another bit or piece, took lunch, etc. We spent a lot of time just socializing, having down time, not thinking too hard.

I also noticed that there wasn't really room to do "better". The nature of the job sort of set a cap on how productive you could be during a given time period, so the culture just grew around that. Think of a gas station attendant sitting around watching TV most of the day, the night audit at the hotel, or the guy flipping burgers when it's not lunch time.

That's when I really got the distinction between $10-20/hr work and $100+ -- we, collectively do difficult, mentally taxing work that requires long hours of intense focus, and a dedication to craftmanship that most other jobs just don't require. And we do that job under mostly under unreasonably tight deadlines, often for employers that don't understand what we're doing and therefore undermine us in many ways.

Yes, it's luxury in many ways. But it's also a coal mine of its own sort.

zhemao• 12 years ago

What kind of job was it, retail? Even that job is probably a luxury compared to, say, manufacturing. I don't think you'd have that much down time if you were working in a factory. You wouldn't be thinking a lot, since it's repetitive manual labor, but I'm sure you'd be pretty tired at the end of the day (physically, not mentally).

ry0ohki• 12 years ago

That's what I was thinking. Mentally taxing work is usually more rewarding at the end of the day than physically taxing work.

Natsu• 12 years ago

It depends very much on the job. I'm currently working from home and loving it, but I know far too much about jobs that suck. Factory work can look very much like Lucy from I Love Lucy working at the chocolate factory, for example. It may not be very mentally engaging, but 12 hours (or more) of that are enough to wear down anybody, especially when you get busy seasons with no weekends.

mgkimsal4• 12 years ago

"and when I charge you $125 for an hour of my time, you got more than that value, because I was working, firing on all cylinders."

No, I don't. I might. But what you value your time at is different from the value I can derive from using your time.

chc• 12 years ago

Unless pmichaud is contracting for you, you don't seem to fall into the precondition of "when I charge you $125 for an hour of my time."

He presumably sells to people who value his time that highly and doesn't sell do people who think his price is unworkable, so it is almost tautologically true.

acoleman616• 12 years ago

You're right. If he's doing his job right, you should be getting MORE than ($125 * # hrs) in value in return.

seizethecheese2• 12 years ago

Hmm, so you took one job and feel like that is enough of a basis for making conclusions?

- Have you tried being a commercial dishwasher? I have. That's 8 straight hours of monotonous, yet highly demanding work attention-wise. $9/hr.

- Have you been a line cook? I have. That's 8 straight hours of monotonous, physical work plus a pretty painful burn at least once a day. $10/hr.

Okay, fine I take your point that programming requires heavy dedication to skill. Have you ever worked in accounting? My fiancee works as an accountant and is constantly pushed to work over 70 hrs per week and her job is extremely demanding. (She's the only one at her company that can figure out certain processes, hence the long hours and pressure. She currently is doing the work of 4 people.) $20/ hr.

I'm sorry, but calling your $100/hr occupation as a programmer a "coal mine of its own sort" is beyond absurd, and downright foolish.

parennoob3• 12 years ago

He is a programmer at $100/hr who has to tax his brain a lot in near-total isolation. The aspects of how this is bad for you may be different from those of a dishwasher or a line cook. Some therapists charge more than $100/hr for just listening to people's mental problems for an hour and suggesting new ways of thinking about stuff. But we don't see said therapists telling each other, "Oh, our jobs are so cushy and luxurious. Try being a line cook!"

Programming is monotonous, socially isolating, and probably leads to a higher risk of things like heart disease and diabetes from all the time we spend sitting around. These aspects of it shouldn't be neglected because a dishwasher or a line cook makes less money for more immediate physical risk.

"Okay, fine I take your point that programming requires heavy dedication to skill. Have you ever worked in accounting? My fiancee works as an accountant and is constantly pushed to work over 70 hrs per week and her job is extremely demanding. (She's the only one at her company that can figure out certain processes, hence the long hours and pressure. She currently is doing the work of 4 people.) $20/ hr."

This is replying to an anecdote with yet another anecdote, which I don't think is terribly helpful. As a sincere suggestion, has she tried negotiating for a raise? Seems like their reliance on her as a single point of failure should make for a good negotiating position.

prawn2• 12 years ago

I think you're contrasting hourly payments for a freelancer (unless OP is getting $100/hr for 40 hours/week, 48 weeks/year) and the accountant getting paid regardless of workload in a full-time role. And in a very particular environment (overworked, etc).

A freelancer, especially if they're working out of a shared office space, has overheads - rent, utilities, etc. What I bill and what I take home are very different, and even more so for my employee.

A couple of those jobs you listed would have the employees heading home and free to unwind. I run a small business and I am never free of it. The calls and the emails and the pressure and the queue of issues never stops. I envy those that go home and can throw away an evening watching a movie or TV guilt-free.

At one point while travelling, I worked as a barman in the UK earning under $10/hr. I could do one hour of freelance work in the morning and make more then than in the 10-12 hour shift I did that afternoon. But I had never been a barman before, had about 10 minutes of training before I started, and didn't really do anything particularly taxing. It was draining being on your feet all day, but it was very simple work. Almost anyone could do it and thus the wage on offer was low.

keppy• 12 years ago

I worked as a dish washer and then line cook for several years. It is true, that is way 'harder' work than programming. It was actually money (or, lack of money) and a work related injury that made me make myself a hirable coder. It's hard to say if my world view changed or if it's normal for people who do this work to become this way, but that first year was so hard that it fucked with me. Brain is different. I guess the trade off is ok though so it's cool ( not poor, homeless, in prison, or hungry :D ).

Oh and by the way, if you think working 8 hours a day as a cook or dishwasher is a lot LOL don't move anywhere where there is any job competition at all you will be instantly fired.

kamaal• 12 years ago

The concept of 'works X hours on job Y so deserves Z' is totally bogus. You have to reveal how much Y is in demand, what kind of risks are involved and what kind of predictability exists in in the results doing Y.

An accountant working 70 hrs a week at $20/hr will take $1400 a week. A start up guy will take $0 if it things go sour. That is the difference. Do you wish to settle for $1400/week without risks or take a risk and make $100 million working 3-4 years? Note if things go bad for the entrepreneur(and that's the most common case) the accountant is still significantly richer than the start up guy.

If you look at it that, way the accountant is having it way easier than the start up guy. A lot of predictability in results, measurable productivity, guaranteed pay etc.

Apply that definition and you see why programming is actually "coal mine of its own sort".

dylandrop• 12 years ago

Yes, it's luxury in many ways. But it's also a coal mine of its own sort.

Except you won't die from sitting home in your pajamas.

You will, however, be very to die for a multitude of reasons in a coal mine.

I'm a programmer. Yes, my brain is engaged constantly. But that's fun to me. It's not like I rue the day I became a programmer and I had to perform the terrible labor of sitting around with friends/acquaintances, sip free coffee, and make web apps. However, if you're in a sweatshop, forced to work many hours a day and likely suffer a variety injuries, you aren't doing as well.

parennoob3• 12 years ago

Except you won't die from sitting home in your pajamas.

Not sure this is true. Working alone from home in a sedentary job probably raises his risk for diabetes, heart disease, and depression and related diseases; and contributes to an earlier death.

I don't have any data as to whether the average life expectancy of a programmer is less than the average life expectancy of a coal miner. Do you?

lectrick2• 12 years ago

Sedentary jobs have sedentary risks: http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/wellness/even-with-e...

I own a GeekDesk and swear by it. Standing sometimes while coding makes a difference!

meistro• 12 years ago

Many of my friends and family are coal miners. I worked at one for a summer. There are fatalities, but the frequency with which they happen is so small that driving to the mine is more dangerous than the actual job. With heavy machinery doing 95% of work in modern mines, and having worked in one, I can tell you that the constant grind of producing code is much harder than sitting in haul truck or laying explosives. On top of that, most programmers don't stop working when they go home. With the constant flood of new technology and best practices, it takes a lot of effort to even stay relevant. Coal miners don't go home and read about creating cheaper explosives or more efficient haul trucks (ok maybe some do, not many). Mining outside of US, is certainly a different story.

walshemj3• 12 years ago

Actually in the developed world mining deaths are a lot lower than they used to be - fishermen have some of the most dangerous jobs

And at a supervisory/professional level in the UK, coal mining deputy's can earn £80-£100k PA (twice what the average dev in London gets paid)- the going rate for a single 12 hour shift at the weekend is £2k

I was one a course (on TUPE a really acne bit of uk employment law) and 3 of the other attendees where from the mining industry and shared some figures with us.

TrevorJ• 12 years ago

Except you won't die from sitting home in your pajamas.

I won't argue that it's not far safer than a lot of other jobs, but there are definitely health risks to having a sedentary job if you don't work on mitigating them on your off hours. Also, stress.

mgkimsal4• 12 years ago

"hours of intense focus"? really? Most software developers I know - highly paid ones - rarely put in more than 4 hours at stretch ever. The 'pomodoro' technique popular a few years ago focused on getting people to work for 25 minutes at a stretch.

I'm not saying the work is not sometimes mentally taxing - it is. But so are other jobs. CPAs trying to juggle way too much info days before tax day - and tax day doesn't move - you can't push that back - the pressure mounts and there's nothing you can do about it. MANY software projects get pushed back days/weeks just because of any number of factors (some big, some trivial).

And... it's not mentally taxing to some people. There are things I sweat in development that other people do with their eyes closed. And vice versa - I've cleaned up projects in a few days that a small team of people "fired on all cylinders" to get done (and failed).

As I replied elsewhere effort and value are pretty disconnected.

GFK_of_xmaspast• 12 years ago

"But it's also a coal mine of its own sort."

Go work a physically taxing job for a couple weeks then come back and say that.

prawn2• 12 years ago

"...of its own sort."

i.e., not making a direct comparison about the physicality of the work...

I remember reading about a guy who gave up the freelance web game to become a lumberjack and loved it. Physically hard, but easy to switch off and relax at the end of the day. I think it was on HN a few years back when I first joined.

datalus• 12 years ago

Austin used to be such a chill place, now we've got these bros...

Comparing coal mining to working in your pajamas for $125/hr. Jesus.

conanbatt• 12 years ago

Don't confound price with value!

Software programmers and Engineers work an inmense amount to build things that are commercially unsuccessful. In fact, most projects are botched completely, let alone those that run at a loss, before you get the big wins.

There is a definite disproportion of price/value across all professions, and programmers are today in the spectrum where the expectations are rather low. 20 years from now, we could have so many engineers that there wont be much advantage in comparison with accountants, operations managers, sales or retail etc.

It is a priviledged position, albeit not as priviledged as lawyers or bankers (whose salary can vastly outpace their value). Classical service jobs dont have that luxury: you serve x burguers, u sell x products, you build y chairs.

Akujin• 12 years ago

I don't really see us getting many more IT/CS engineers anytime soon. The amount of businesses that actually need a programmer / tech person on staff keeps increasing while the amount of engineers out there stays relatively the same. That's why we can charge so much for our hours. It's a seller's market. Even if the country decided to make programming part of the elementary school curriculum it wouldn't necessarily translate into more engineers because computer science & IT people tend to be nerds/geeks who like to tinker in their free time and as a percentage of the population they stay relatively the same from year to year. If anything the kind of programming curriculum that most programmers dream of might actually create more of a demand for them because finally everyone who's not a programmer will realize the potential value of having a good programmer on staff.

The amount of office drones I see messing around with giant Excel sheets for hours doing the same task day in day out that could easily be automated by a simple application is astounding.

benched2• 12 years ago

Absolutely yes. I always have to be really polite to my friends who don't have technical jobs. Programmers have to offer up complicated things, that have to hold up when tested. A lot of jobs are mostly talking, or moving things around, or just whatever. Look at family physicians. I've seen them just look up stuff on Wikipedia on their netbooks, that everybody sort of knows anyway. Anything more demanding, they write down the name of a specialist. I used to have a customer service job that was like that, but I only made $14 (1998) an hour.

jtoeman3• 12 years ago

FWIW those people "talking" or "whatever" are quite likely creating some of the business opportunities for your code to sit in and make you the money. The number of times when coding=(lots of)money without some of the "whatever" involved is fairly rare.

jtoeman3• 12 years ago

You related to Tom Perkins?

jckt• 12 years ago

Try cheffing. Up to 16 hours a day at a high-end place with only a 5 minute breakfast break, 5 minute supper break. Mind's constantly working. Certainly not solving world hunger, but creativity and concentration are required all the time. Shit job if you don't really care much about food, and even if you do, the job itself is still not that great.

aestra3• 12 years ago

It is interesting that in some places there are mandatory break times, where I grew up you had to have a half hour break per 8 hour shift or something like that, even with these laws, those working conditions still persist. Some employers might not even be aware of them. I worked for one that was super not-breaking-the-law type and one that was who-the-hell-has-time-to-research-that-shit? type. Both in food prep and service.

2arrs2ells• 12 years ago

"Think of a gas station attendant sitting around watching TV most of the day, the night audit at the hotel, or the guy flipping burgers when it's not lunch time."

I've been thinking about this a bit lately... What can we build to help people make the most of these spare cycles? Duolingo is perfect for this. What else could people produce/learn in spare time on their phone?

DanBC• 12 years ago

There are a million things they could do. Gamify things and help science - http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-23635094

Or set up a course and learn math etc.

Sadly, many bosses don't want this. They want a body at work and to look like they're working even if there's nothing to do.

pawn• 12 years ago

My dad likes to remind me of how much better my job is than what I could be doing.

He's done construction work all of his life, and self-employed construction for as long as I've been alive. Growing up, I often worked for him during the summers after school was out. I've done all manner of construction work under him, concrete work, plumbing, roofing, decks, fences, you name it.

He claims now that he had me doing all that so that I'd want to go to college and get a desk job, and maybe he's telling the truth. There have been some things I remember fondly about those days, but overall, there's no comparison. We have it a lot easier.

badman_ting3• 12 years ago

Yeah, that perspective is crucial, I think. When I was a teenager I worked at TJ Maxx for gas money. Retail/customer service type work can be and often is humiliating and somewhat dehumanizing, and of course it pays jack.

I have coworkers who not only didn't do that, they didn't work anywhere else professionally before coming to their jobs at our cushy employer. They're kind of double-screwed: they don't know how sweet this job is vs other jobs doing similar work, and they don't know how much they should be getting paid for it. So they have good jobs, that they bitch about, for which they get paid half or 60% of what they should be getting. (The pay isn't why they bitch, they don't even know they're getting underpaid.)

kayoone• 12 years ago

Might be like that in the US, but in other parts of the world, being a software developer is not that glorious. Average pay, constant high work loads, doing very challenging work but being seen as a coding slave.. doesn't matter much if you work from home or not in that case, most projects aren't really enlightening.

blazespin• 12 years ago

Humble brag.

njharman• 12 years ago

When I'm depressed/sad/whining and people ask "what's wrong" or "how am I doing". They laugh when I reply with variation of "Good, I'm not being genocided". But that is my serious reply. Like this article states, no matter how "crappy" I imagine my (MUC, white, male, american) life to be, If I rationally examine it It is magnitudes better than 90+% of the people on the planet. Thinking about the people struggling to find drinking water or not be killed by their neighbors puts things in perspective.

loceng• 12 years ago

You can be healthy and happy doing any task - so long as you have balance and support and habits to support you.

whitef0x• 12 years ago

I think it is like anything. Every job has its benefits and its tradeoffs. It is just that different jobs have different benefits and tradeoffs for different people. If you enjoy your job as a programmer and you enjoy applying algorithms to real world problem then yes, I agree it is a luxurious job.

However if you hate programming (which means you shouldn't be doing this job) but for some reason (financial, social, etc) you continue to work in this field then the tradeoffs could outweigh the benefits.

gren• 12 years ago

"PS: I am available for hire! Feel free to contact me" at the end of the post was a bit ironic.

Otherwise I quite agree with the post, we tech guys have chance to choose our job.

Suncho• 12 years ago

The biggest problem with this whole situation is that we, as a society, are forcing people to work when our economy doesn't need them to. If we needed people to work, then the jobs would create themselves. There would be no talk of job creation. It would happen on its own.

And people don't need jobs either. They never did. They need food and money. Jobs just used to be an appropriate way to obtain those things.

jebblue• 12 years ago

There was a story on the local news last night that a bus driver in Austin is making $117K. Just throwing it out there, like, what if you really like driving a bus but only get paid $20K. That would suck. But if you like it and can get paid 6 figures then I'd say that would be very cool. I knew a guy in high school who dreamed and talked of nothing but owning and driving his own bug rig. He was a pretty sharp guy, he just wanted his own truck and the open road.

dmamills• 12 years ago

I used to work as a line cook, I made ~$13/hr (Canadian) and I worked from 5pm-3am, about 6 days a week including weekends. It stole my life away from me. The world of kitchens was hot, hostile, fast-paced and overall just terrible. There were no sick days. I did it from age 15-22. It's not to say that I didn't love it because I did, but it was hell.

Now I sit at a desk all day and get paid to type out a fancy language at a leisurely pace for nearly three times as much. It's insane how hard I used to work for so little, compared to how much I now get paid to work so little.

grownseed• 12 years ago

From the sound of it, it's not so much a luxury problem but rather one of integrity... If you feel like the comfort of your home or your lack of motivation somehow make your job "luxurious", I'm sorry to say that the problem is in all likelihood mostly with you and not the profession. I would probably call that apathy and/or privilege.

I worked from home for quite a while, and the simple idea of getting rewarded for not achieving anything made me feel guilty and inadequate. I also happened to work in kitchens from a very young age for a few years, with ridiculous hours and pay as one would imagine, yet I often consider getting back to it. There's a particular sense of satisfaction in cooking that I've never found in programming.

All jobs come with their upsides and downsides, and all professions have people who get paid too much or not enough. I don't think you can lump in personalities and activities together like that.

I realize my tone might come through as a bit harsh, and I'm sorry if it does. I'm just a bit tired of the lazy well-off programmer stereotype, it undermines a lot of us in several ways.

mch0lic• 12 years ago

It's not really a problem in Lithuanian, but rather in the mindset of poorly educated/older generation people there. Being Lithuanian I never received a single word of encouragement from my friends or family, but rather was threatened that starting business will lead me to poverty or I would simply fail. Luckily, I spend quite a lot of time abroad (mostly SE Asia) and seen how random local village person would start his burger stall, if that fails try cooking some fried rice and even if that fails bringing money home try selling noodles or whatever else. I mean those guys would never give up and that's sort of mindset that let's you have a better life.

Personally I try not to spend to much time back home even I'm officially running business there, I much rather stay in Mauritius as I do now, or go back to SE Asia. Being around enthusiastic and happy people makes you one too and once you happy money is no longer an issue, it just finds its way to you..

jokoon• 12 years ago

Maybe.

That doesn't change the fact that I can't find a job in another sector just because I know programming.

That fact is IT actually saves a lot of money to the extent that effect is proportional to the sum of innovation.

It's true that it's an easier life to know programming nowadays, but that doesn't necessarily mean you have a better life if you're a programmer, hired or not.

I think programmers should not complain about anything or their job if they chose to swallow the blue pill and work a programming job they don't like, coding for a project they don't like.

I think you can complain if you got at least ideas for solutions that have not been tried. If you don't, and you work a job you don't like, then don't complain, because you're part of the problem.

Programming is not always about making a project work. Programming is mostly about innovation and making new useful things and improving old things.

I don't understand why most of the IT landscape is still email and http and html, technologies that have been created at the very beginning.

I think most jobs are luxurious jobs, but that's because the government is more effective than in other places. If you do programming but you don't like what you do, maybe it's because the work you're being given is just shitty. Maybe it's better than doing a shit job, but sitting doing something you don't like is as much turning people crazy than anything else.

phryk2• 12 years ago

"Even more people are getting their butts of the beds every morning, going to the job they hate, just to support the basic needs."

And you think that programmers don't? I work as a badly underpaid php developer and have slept on a couch in a ~35m² single-room apartment for the last few years. I handed in my resignation this week, because this job causes depressions that make me borderline suicidal. I'll have to live off of state welfare, if I can get it, if I don't then I'll be homeless, but I just can't take this shit anymore, so I'm taking the plunge and hope for the best.

For every well-paid and -treated programmer there are a whole bunch of underpaid and ill-treated ones. Besides, what's so wrong about not wanting to work? You as someone with a good grip on what technology can do should see that we could've started to automate the production of things needed for basic survival (food, shelter, energy…) decades, if not even longer, ago.

As far as I can tell, programmers have far greater chances to end up with depression or burnout than most other jobs, so please don't act like it's all sunshine and unicorn farts for all of us.

phryk2• 12 years ago

Of course we already have this sort of stuff largely automated; I meant in a way that doesn't just make profit for a small minority of the population.

ithkuil• 12 years ago

Yes I realize some/most of us have a privileged job. However, I believe that it's reasonable that people who are exceptionally talented expect something better.

Sometimes you know you are exceptionally talented, they tell you, you know how to build stuff, how to fix stuff, how to get to the heart of the problem, how to learn new stuff quickly, how to write down code and documentation.

Yet you have move countries (sometimes at the expense of family and quality of life) and/or spend hours every day commuting because your company values physical presence above all that.

I don't think that's an unreasonable thing to complain.

Even if we are lucky, lucky to have talent or just lucky that the talent we have is highly valued (unfortunately not all talented people are so lucky), I still think it's reasonable to complain.

ap22213• 12 years ago

Yes, programming is very luxurious. And, I try to remind myself of that everyday. I earn 2-3 times that of most of my non-programmer friends. And, generally, it's been a luscious existence.

But, I think the mechanisms of my brain that make me good at programming also make me prone to emotional stress, misery, mood cycles, etc. So, yeah, even though I love programming, especially regarding the creative aspects, I also sometimes wish I could have been born with different genes.

lepunk• 12 years ago

I'm fortunate enough to been able to do both manual labor and office work (coding) too, so I think I'm less critical about my job compared to someone who got a decent one straight out from uni.

After high-school I had a bunch of temporary jobs working with builders, carpenters, etc in Hungary for less than £10 / day. I was happy because it paid my day-to-day expenses.

Then I moved to London where I took a minimal wage "biorobot " job in a factory for £5.5 / hour. I sincerely thought I have a great, well paid job. I was happy

Then I applied for a startup as the first coder there, got hired and I'm still with them after 6 years. I don't even know exactly how much I make on a hourly basis, but I don't really care. I'm happy

It is all just perspective. You can be the happiest person on a very low salary, or be depressed and cranky about your job even if you make millions.

I do think programmers deserve high salaries, and luxury like working from home. Why? Because our profession is extremely unique. Every single day we have the potential to solve a problem which never been solved before.

cuillevel3• 12 years ago

I think we idealize our jobs. They're stressful and dangerous. Stress, obesity, back, blood circulation and respiratory problems do kill eventually.

Then there is depression, working alone, never going outside.

But hey, you could always become a consultant: travel much, eat badly, work everywhere, ignore ergonomics...

And one more thing, I wouldn't compare myself to the millions of unemployed, or low-wage workers, but to the upper middle class.

lostcolony• 12 years ago

Even reading some of these comments is a bit nauseating.

If you are a software dev, designer, etc, in almost any part of the world where you can read this, you are massively lucky.

Nevermind the whole "You have internet access and can develop software for a living? Welcome to the top 50% in the world", etc; there are people in your area barely scraping by; if your only metric is others in the same economic bracket, get out more.

One of my hobbies is a martial art. Many of the students there are in much poorer straights than myself. One in particular, a young adult nearly out of high school, and already working, rides 10 miles each way to work and the martial arts school on his bike, because he can't afford public transportation. He lives paycheck to paycheck, and has to work out special payment arrangements with the instructor because of it. I don't really care if his day job is 'easier' than mine (I did it once; it wasn't for me, but whose to say it isn't for him); he has to stress how to cover bills, how to get to work when not feeling great and facing a 10 mile bike ride there and back, etc. I can call in and WFH because I have the sniffles. Or drive, because I have a car, and the funds to keep up insurance, gas, repairs, etc.

If you enjoy coding, and you get paid enough for it to cover your bills and stash some away, you are massively, massively lucky. Is it as good a break as it could, or should (were this a utopia) be? No. But compared to the unfairness many others face, you should be reveling in it, while trying to affect change not just for yourself but those who are in harder circumstances.

nzp• 12 years ago

I absolutely get what you're trying to say, but---so what? How is programmers being aware of their luxurious jobs going to help people with less luxurious jobs? Will the situation for other people improve if people here merely stop complaining about recruiters and procrastination? If they merely do a mental version of catholic style self flagellation? Is this another variant of "eat your dinner, there are children in Africa starving" routine? What good does me eating my dinner do to a starving kid in Africa? Etc.

There's nothing wrong about complaining about relevant problems in one's profession, even if those problems seem nice to have to other people, and not complaining won't magically make other people's lives more comfortable. And having a "luxurious" job that pays well is nothing to be compulsively ashamed of if it's an honest job not involving exploitation of others (which programming in almost all (?) cases is).

solidsnack9000• 12 years ago

Is our work really luxurious or just stable, rewarding and fairly renumerated?

We Have Luxurious Jobs but We Are Not Aware of It

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