Treasure hunter freed from jail after refusing to turn over shipwreck gold

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cg4g7kn99q3o

by tartoran • 4 months ago

171 242 4 months ago

gnabgib• 4 months ago

Previously (4+6 points) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47329627 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47372912

But also amusingly Deep-sea treasure hunter jailed for 10 years scores legal win but won't be freed (10 points, 1 year ago, 2 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42923251

bfivyvysj• 4 months ago

So just need to wait them out eh.

AreShoesFeet000• 4 months ago

This is interesting. They really can’t keep you locked forever.

Barbing• 4 months ago

released from prison after a decade
Tommy Thompson, 73

No not _forever_ :)

MBCook6• 4 months ago

This link said that his contempt violated a plea agreement and that’s why they were able to hold him longer than the standard limit of 18 months.

https://apnews.com/article/tommy-thompson-gold-coins-shipwre...

bombcar• 4 months ago

Interesting that they stayed in Florida instead of absconding with the coins to where they'd be out of reach.

SilverElfin• 4 months ago

Is there any obligation to turn over treasure you find yourself? And why?

wahern• 4 months ago

There is when you take $12 million from investors:

A total of 161 investors had given Thompson $12.7m (£9.4m) to find the ship on the understanding that they would see returns on their investment.

Both the criminal and civil contempt arose from his refusal to abide court orders from the civil suit.[1]

[1] https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdoh/pr/treasure-hunter-sentenc...

JDDunn9• 4 months ago

If investors gave you $12.7 million to fund your expedition, you have an obligation to split the treasure as you promised.

manarth• 4 months ago

    > "Is there any obligation to turn over treasure you find yourself?"

There is, in some places.

For example, the UK Treasure Act:

    "Under the Act, treasure is owned by the Crown"
    "The act requires finders of treasure—specifically, gold/silver objects >300 years old, coin hoards, or significant metallic items >200 years old—to report them to a local coroner within 14 days"

The UK Merchant Shipping Act (applies to recovery from wrecks):

    "all wreck material recovered in UK territorial waters or brought into the UK must be reported to the Receiver of Wreck within 28 days."

The USA Abandoned Shipwreck Act of 1987, grants states title to wrecks in their waters.

There's also the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) which applies to international waters.

     "All objects of archaeological and historical nature in [international waters] must be preserved or disposed of for the benefit of mankind, with particular regard to the country of origin, cultural origin, or historical/archaeological origin."

ojbyrne• 4 months ago

“Ship of Gold in the Deep Blue Sea” is a book about the treasure hunt, recommended.

rgovostes• 4 months ago

It is a fantastic book. The author was a spectator for much of the treasure hunt. The adulation of Thompson is amusing in light of the fact that, 15 years after publication, he was arrested for defrauding his investors.

Thompson himself published a coffee table book about the find, "America's Lost Treasure."

aed• 4 months ago

I was about to come recommend this book! I picked it up at a book sale without knowing the story. It is fantastic.

jgalt212• 4 months ago

It is a very good book, but the author is enamored with Tommy Thompson. It's a borderline hagiography. And then when you do some independent reading about Tommy, you sort of question the researching skills of the author, Gary Kinder.

Refreeze5224• 4 months ago

The real story here is that civil contempt can net you an indefinite prison sentence without a conviction, and if you're lucky a judge will decide to let you out. Over something you may or may not even know.

Analemma_3• 4 months ago

How else could it possibly work? The justice system depends on judges being able to compel action. Within the guardrails established by the system (e.g. no self-incriminating testimony, if you’re in the US), I don’t have a problem with refusal to e.g. turn over evidence just resulting in detention until you comply. It’s not a prison sentence, since you can get out any time you want.

awesome_dude2• 4 months ago

I don’t have a problem with refusal to e.g. turn over evidence just resulting in detention until you comply. It’s not a prison sentence, since you can get out any time you want.

It is if you don't have the item(s) or knowledge being asked for.

giancarlostoro• 4 months ago

since you can get out any time you want.

If you dont hate whats requested, how do you get out any time you want?

bravoetch• 4 months ago

You ask how else could it possibly work. How about charge him with a crime first, then detain him if he's convicted. The idea that you can imprison someone forever without a charge is insane.

cortesoft• 4 months ago

Doesn't this give the government the unchecked ability to detain whoever they want indefinitely, then?

They could just demand someone turn over evidence that doesn't exist, or that they know the person doesn't know about?

wesammikhail• 4 months ago

The is the most totalitarian bullshit I've ever heard on HN. The fact that you're okay with another human, just because they have a robe, to compel you to do as they ask OR rot away without a conviction is utter madness.

Imagine if this was the 1500s and the man in the robe was a priest. Would you be okay with that? and if your answer is some form of distinction without a difference argument, I'd urge you to not even reply.

FpUser6• 4 months ago

"How else could it possibly work?"

Here is the idea - six month in jail for contempt.

The justice system depends on judges being able to compel action"

It does not. The person gets punished and this should be the end of it. Instead they have Machiavellian twist bypassing all standard checks and bounds.

Daddy they've hurt my ego.

MBCook6• 4 months ago

“Federal law generally limits jail time for contempt of court to 18 months. But a federal appeals court in 2019 rejected Thompson’s argument that that law applies to him, saying his refusal violated conditions of a plea agreement.”

https://apnews.com/article/tommy-thompson-gold-coins-shipwre...

booleandilemma2• 4 months ago

18 months is long enough to bankrupt someone and ruin their life. What a shame. No one should have that kind of power.

tptacek6• 4 months ago

Seems sort of like he was held for as long as he'd have been held if he'd been judged guilty of stealing everything he was accused of stealing, and if he wanted to default himself into prison for that stretch without a trial, the judge was content to oblige him.

AnthonyMouse5• 4 months ago

The problem obviously being that then there is never a trial and no one ever proved beyond a reasonable doubt that he was even capable of disclosing the information.

refurb• 4 months ago

I mean clearly that has to happen otherwise people could just refuse to participate in court hearings and be exempt from laws.

stavros• 4 months ago

Indefinite imprisonment isn't the only way to solve this. Over here we just have trials without the defendant, and they usually don't end up well for them. Better than indefinite imprisonment, though.

consumer4513• 4 months ago

The last time I saw this story, I learned that he was actually jailed for defrauding investors.

Was that not the case? If it is, is the BBC in the unavoidable click-bait game now?

adi_kurian2• 4 months ago

Yes mate insane clickbait.

Look at these passages:

"Investors in Thompson's venture accused him of cheating them out of promised proceeds and after years on the run he was jailed in 2015 on a criminal contempt charge.

But last year, the judge agreed to end Thompson's civil contempt sentence, arguing that he was unlikely to ever offer an answer, according to CBS News."

consumer4513• 4 months ago

Man, this is why people with enough "karma" have flagging abilities on this website. Please use it on this story. Pure garbage.

dwedge4• 4 months ago

It's confusing because it looks like he was convicted of both

U.S. District Judge Algenon Marbley agreed Friday to end Tommy Thompson’s sentence on the civil contempt charge, saying he “no longer is convinced that further incarceration is likely to coerce compliance.” However, he also ordered that the research scientist immediately start serving a two-year sentence he received for a related criminal contempt charge, a term that was delayed when the civil contempt term was imposed.

sooheon• 4 months ago

Wonder why he was only charged with contempt, rather than defrauding investors?

VSerge• 4 months ago

^this. The person described here appears like a crook who pocketed millions and stiffed investors, so why just a contempt charge?

In any case, probably not a romantic explorer figure as the clickbaity title suggests.

danielheath2• 4 months ago

If a judge says you're in contempt, you'll get charged with contempt immediately - all the people required are present.

To charge him with defrauding investors requires a whole different group of people to get involved.

Additionally, those people need enough evidence to have a chance of conviction. "He refused to answer questions about it" is not actually evidence.

dwedge4• 4 months ago

And it carries an indefinite sentence? That's crazy

arjie3• 4 months ago

Jesus, what a tale

Investors in Thompson's venture accused him of cheating them out of promised proceeds and after years on the run he was jailed in 2015 on a criminal contempt charge.
They had been staying in a hotel for two years, paying cash for their room under a false name and using taxis and public transport to avoid detection.

But unless he plans on leaving secret wealth to his children, it scarcely sounds like a win even if he did actually get the $400 million. The investors are likely to watch him closely post-release for any actual accessing of the money. But even otherwise, what a life. Even if you have the $400 m worth of money somewhere, you're still living for years out of a hotel in Boca Raton, FL only going places via taxi and public transport while trying not to leave a paper trail. Then you're in jail for 10 years.

I suppose he can live out his seventies and later, but damn.

bowmessage• 4 months ago

The thing about gold is, it’s probably quite easy to secretly leave to your heirs.

arjie3• 4 months ago

Yes, I think so too. It's the only worthwhile reason to commit this crime, surely. You'd be relying on the claimants abandoning their claim at some point because surely the statute of limitations doesn't just apply because you were particularly good at hiding something. Realistically, they'd have to sell this to a collector many years later for much less than what they're worth (since they can't be sold on with proper provenance tracking).

It doesn't even seem worth it since the original investors wanted a fraction of the proceeds not all of it. Just seems like a strange choice, but I suppose that's why I'm not an intrepid underwater gold adventurer and this guy is.

MBCook6• 4 months ago

I wonder if there is a statute of limitations on suing an estate.

Let’s say he dies in 5 years. 10 years later his children suddenly clearly become rich and can’t explain how. Clearly it looks like he passed the gold to them somehow.

Could the investors then somehow sue his estate then to get the value of the gold back? Or would it be too late?

For all we know he stole money, but not what they thought. Maybe after his time in hiding there’s only a few thousand left and it’s all largely moot anyway.

He’d be more sympathetic if he hadn’t been hiding and suspiciously paying cash for everything for years.

TurdF3rguson2• 4 months ago

Living out of hotels in Boca Raton, FL and going places via taxis is a win for at least 90% of the world's population.

arjie3• 4 months ago

Haha, true! But he could have had millions any way. It's not like he was going to live like a p90 person in the world!

tgtweak2• 4 months ago

The rest of the gold was actually recovered after he was originally sued - the downstream owners of the original insurance company that paid out (they get the rights to the recovery when they settle a loss policy) sued and won rights to the gold - they then hired a larger recovery company that successfully recovered the 95% that was left. Kind of crazy that this guy didn't recover more than 5% and shot himself in the foot by trying to steal $2.5M of coins.

olalonde4• 4 months ago

Spending a decade in jail at age 60+ is a hell of a price to pay for a few millions. I'm tempted to believe he doesn't actually know where the coins are. If that's the case, he just spent 10+ years in a cage because a judge didn't believe him....

lukan2• 4 months ago

At what age do you believe, 10 years in jail are a better price to pay?

olalonde4• 4 months ago

Younger. The opportunity cost of time scales non-linearly with age. If you're old enough, 10 years can be a life sentence.

Dylan168073• 4 months ago

If you ask people that would still have 25+ years of life after they're freed, I bet a lot of them would willingly take that trade.

cbg0• 4 months ago

It depends on what life you've lived so far.

latexr4• 4 months ago

Several people in the comments are focusing too much on the 10 years and on if that’s an acceptable trade-off.

It’s worth pointing out no one knew it would be 10 years, not even the judge. The sentence wasn’t “10 years”, it was “indefinitely until we get an answer”. It just so happens that 10 years is when this judge decided “alright, we’re not going to get an answer, no point in the jail time”.

cultofmetatron• 4 months ago

10 years for refusing to to say where he found gold is wild. people who committed fraud against elderly people and child molesters often get sentenced for less than that.

heavyset_go2• 4 months ago

He defrauded his investors. As much as I find that funny, what he did was a white collar crime that has consequences.

Terr_• 4 months ago

10 years for refusing to to say where he found gold is wild.

No, that's not what happened. I'm guessing you saw this news before under a clickbait title.

It's not about where gold was found, it's about where he stashed it later. These are assets that are (or were) in his hands which partially belong to all the investors he defrauded.

Hendrikto• 4 months ago

In Germany, financial crimes are often punished much harder than capital crimes too. Tells you where the priorities lie.

mcfedr• 4 months ago

they mostly get elected to positions of great power i guess

casey22• 4 months ago

Most don't even get sentenced at all, what's your point?

bredren• 4 months ago

This presumes he knew he would be held that long.

Presuming he holds keys to vast wealth, the calculation would have shifted over time. Especially once he was serving his original sentence again starting a year ago.

Another consideration is that many go to jail longer with no upside once getting released.

jbstack3• 4 months ago

According to the article, the lawsuit said the coins were worth up to $400m. That's more than a "few" millions, it's $40m per year spent in jail. I think the bigger issue for him is that it will be very hard to launder all of that without getting caught.

Fargren2• 4 months ago

At no point in my life would I choose to spend 10 years in jail for $400m. Only if my current living situation was very poor and this was my only way out of it. I can sort of imagine why one would... but it seems like an awful decision to me.

It seems more plausible to me he actually doesn't have the gold.

cucumber3732842• 4 months ago

You're really gonna take what the other party to a lawsuit says at face value? They probably took the most expensive "collector coin" and then assumed all the other coins were worth that rather than melt value.

basilikum• 4 months ago

I would maybe spend one year in prison for 40M$. If I actually had a button in front of me that would — if I pressed it — land me in prison for a year and got me 40M$ when I get out, I still wouldn't do it. But I can see the point there. No way would I spend a second year in prison for another 40M$ after that, not even a year for the remaining 360M$. The subjective value of money does not scale linearly. But then again, people are greedy and like big numbers and other unimportant things and they do give away their valuable time of life for these unimportant things instead of using it for actually valuable things.

lazide5• 4 months ago

Well, if there is anywhere to learn how (and make friends with whom!) he could possibly launder $400m worth of gold coins….

ryandrake4• 4 months ago

Why didn't they just convict him of fraud and fine him the estimated value of the missing coins, rather than trying to convince him to divulge where they were? Now, the guy is out of jail and they still haven't recovered the value of the gold from him. Lose-lose for the plaintiffs and for justice. Why are we so soft on fraud?

pingou• 4 months ago

Seems more like sunk cost fallacy, after 12 months in jail you could be unwilling to give up and tell where the treasure is, because then you would have spent a year in jail for nothing, and then it just gets worse and worse each passing year...

jongjong• 4 months ago

They probably released him because they don't want the secret to die with him and also they probably want to track him via satellite.

gethly• 4 months ago

From what i have read, he is mostly guilty of defrauding his investors.

Razengan• 4 months ago

This is Thorin having to give away the Lonely Mountain treasure after Smaug's death all over again

White_Wolf• 4 months ago

I'd do 10 years even for 20 mil if that is what it takes to make sure my 2 kids and my wife are set. I won't be able to earn that much in a decade anyway.

latexr4• 4 months ago

Maybe ask your wife and kids first. Chances are they would rather not make that trade (and if they did, then you shouldn’t).

jimnotgym2• 4 months ago

How did he get in this mess? I reckon a complete moron could have stolen 10% of the gold without getting caught. Just count and log less than you found. Drop it overboard with a GPS pin on your way back to port. Get it next year.

ahoka• 4 months ago

How do you sell it?

y-curious• 4 months ago

Melt it down and sell at spot price would be my guess

jimnotgym2• 4 months ago

Well you use your real share to generate a complex series of investments to make it very hard to judge your wealth. In it you begin trading gold legitimately, not gold markets but buying and selling real gold. The stuff off the boat gets mixed in over the years. Buy some shipwreck gold! Collect gold coins personally! Buy and sell collectables

Melt some down, have it remade into other things, and it gains a bit of weight here and there.

AngryData• 4 months ago

I mean it is pretty easy to sell gold, especially if you sell it below spot price or melt it. If someone offered me gold at a 10% discount, I would immediately buy it and go sell it at whatever gold dealer for an easy profit. Im sure most gold dealers would do the same thing even if it was obviously stolen spanish gold or something.

If you wanted some sort of legal paper trail to fall back on you can spend a bit of money on a few machines and rights to a gold claim in Alaska, dig some random holes for a few months, then claim you struck it rich.

conductr• 4 months ago

If you’re unsuspecting and the investors get enough return, then it’s really not to hard as no one is going to be watching you or have any reason or ability to audit your finances.

I’d say it’s almost expected that someone in that position would skim off the top in this way. The problem is he stole it all and that’s obviously going to raise questions.

balderdash• 4 months ago

Yeah I had the same thought - I feel like either there was nowhere near as much gold as was touted or he was obnoxiously greedy/stupid.

To your other point it wouldn’t be too hard to sell 10% of the gold to dealers with the proceeds /paperwork unaccounted for / off the books.

JoeAltmaier• 4 months ago

I'm surprised he spent a day in jail. People with big money generally have far less trouble with the law, than that.

tgtweak2• 4 months ago

Interesting that he really only took about $50M on that original haul - I'm still not entirely sure where that $50M would have went honestly since it doesn't look reasonable that he could have accrued $50M of debt/interest in an operation like that. Probably a good chunk of that was siphoned off and sitting in some offshores.

In 2014, a secondary recovery operation was launched by Odyssey Marine Exploration under court supervision to get the rest of the treasure Thompson left behind.

Chief Judge Rebecca Beach Smith issued a ruling in August 2016 awarding the title of the newly recovered items to the salvors (of the original insurance company that paid out for the wreck). Operational reports and inventories were officially filed with the court.

The court inventory for this second trip alone included 15,500 gold and silver coins, 45 gold bars, gold dust, and hundreds of 19th-century artifacts. This included a glass-plate photograph of a woman dubbed the "Mona Lisa of the Deep" and what is believed to be the world's oldest known pair of miner's work jeans.

bojangleslover• 4 months ago

He's an idiot. He pulled off one of the most incredible stunts I've ever seen. Not only does was he able to find and extract the gold over a mile down, which is incredible, he was also able to rally over 100 investors and raise capital. Ironically this is basically how capital markets originated, from shipping ventures not unlike this one.

He should have given the investors their money, taken his performance fee, and not spend up to half of his remaining lifespan (and probably around 3/4 of his remaining health span).

On the other hand, if he has grandkids and he manages to give them say 100mm instead of 20mm, he may feel it was worth it genetically.

throwa356262• 4 months ago

I am surprised he survived jail.

Inmates would start threatening and exporting him as soon as they learned of this and might even continue after he is out.

caminante• 4 months ago

If true, then why couldn't he also buy bodyguards or protection?

GJim• 4 months ago

You're American aren't you.

There is a reason I can tell. (Hint: It might be something to do with the prison system).

nullorempty• 4 months ago

The reason he was released is because they were getting close to never finding out where the gold is. Now, they have a chance of him leading them to it.

Treasure hunter freed from jail after refusing to turn over shipwreck gold

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