Man faces 3 years in prison for tweeting about finance minister in India

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/iac-volunteer-tweets-himself-into-trouble-faces-three-years-in-jail/article4051769.ece

by ashray • 14 years ago

167 81 14 years ago

thehindu.com

peteretep• 14 years ago

As a European, it can sometimes be hard to appreciate America's guarantees of free speech, especially as you only really ever hear about the "negative" aspects of it - Citizens United, for example.

But more and more it seems that countries that have nominally vibrant democracies are making certain types of speech criminal - I wonder if there'll be a groundswell of activism to get free speech retroactively enshrined as a right in countries where such a thing never really seemed needed before.

Nursie• 14 years ago

I don't know if there's a groundswell, but people in the UK are certainly talking about it.

In particular the libel laws here are utterly crazy, frequently you'll see two Americans, or two Russians, suing each other in UK courts over things printed or put up on the internet in their respective countries. Nothing to do with the UK really, but because there is no 1st amendment, and the courts consider it their jurisdiction if the material was ever available over here, they go for it.

And because most countries have agreements on collecting money owed due to lawsuits, a judgement in the UK (where it's easy to get one) can affect the defendant wherever they are. I believe that this sort of things is starting to be recognised and the US (possibly Obama himself) have put an exception on their legal reciprocity - UK libel judgements don't count in the US any more.

mkr-hn• 14 years ago

This recently came up in the world of gaming: http://penny-arcade.com/report/editorial-article/mcvs-lauren...

rayiner6• 14 years ago

Citizens United often gets brought up when people over here talk about limiting political speech, but one thing I like to remind people is that: 1) Citizens United was about a movie criticizing a Presidential candidate--the exact kind of political speech that should be most protected; 2) the Soliciter General put his foot in his mouth in the most terrible way when he basically admitted that the law would allow book banning.

I also like to point out that in the very next term the Supreme Court struck down California's violent video game law, which was widely lauded by liberals even though had Citizens United gone the other way, Rockstar Games would have no free speech rights to raise in that case.

Free speech really is the real deal here, and I find it upsetting how much flak the Supreme Court has gotten for staying true to their line of decisions. This is a Supreme Court that in the midst of Vietnam protected a protestor who said that if the government ever made him carry a rifle (to go to war), the first person in his sights would be President Johnson.

pstuart2• 14 years ago

The movie was paid speech - it was a commercial.

jamesbritt2• 14 years ago

The problem with the Citizens United ruling was that it was broader than necessary, so it became about more than just a movie.

The idea that foreign governments can secretly fund a massive Presidential campaign does not strike me as the intention of the First Amendment.

spindritf• 14 years ago

> As a European, it can sometimes be hard to appreciate America's guarantees of free speech

As a European, it's hard NOT to appreciate America's guarantees of free speech, especially as limits on it only seem to have negative effects like silencing criticism of government and powerful public figures, quelling reports of corruption, and penalising beliefs unpopular among current political elite.

Their guarantees include not just the fifth amendment but also little bits like truth being an absolute defence against libel, and courts unwilling to chase the smallest slip-ups in their race to convict for libel. And as much as American seem to get offended over what other people say, their government is not imprisoning historians telling wacky stories, or chasing memorabilia.

skrebbel• 14 years ago

Strongly agree. The fact that in most European countries, there's some freedom of speech, apparently makes it much easier for legislators to add some things to the taboo list here and there, and for the public to suck it up. In the US, where freedom of speech is a much more absolute right, it is also much easier to defend.

smsm42• 14 years ago

Of course, it's easy to appreciate free speech when it is done by people you sympathize with. It's much harder to do it in case where it's done by people you disagree with. That's why US has First Amendment and that's why, so far, the Supreme Court was very reluctant to allow any restrictions, even in case where political pressure is massive - such as the CU case. Unfortunately, the executive branch is not as adamant in protecting the Constitution as the SCOTUS are - see the recent case of Hillary Clinton promising to arrest and prosecute the maker of the infamous "Innocence of Muslims" flick.

It is by now a demonstrable fact that free speech restrictions are a slippery slope. You start with the laws that prohibit "bad" speech or political speech by "bad" people - and voila, in short time you get bloggers arrested and filmmakers jailed because somebody powerful didn't like what they said. The law is always written against "bad" people, but whoever gets to enforce it may have very different definitions of "bad" than you do.

namank3• 14 years ago

What do you (guys) think of Julian Assange?

nsomaru• 14 years ago

Sad, and typical.

I have lived in India for the last 3 years and at first I was angry, then disgusted, but now it's just sadness.

To see a country with so much potential throw themselves into such a quagmire of ridiculousness stirs my soul to mutiny!

There is a culture of corruption, and this article just highlights one of thousands of daily acts of corruption that happen on macro and micro scales.

India needs a cultural revolution, someone to suck the apathy out of the people and make them demand responsibility from their leaders.

gnufied• 14 years ago

There is something like that underway currently and the guy who was arrested for tweeting was part of it - India Against Corruption(http://www.indiaagainstcorruption.org/). Like every common Indian, they have my support and money and when time comes I am willing to take it to the streets as well.

The litmus test will be, how much interest it can get from people beyond big cities.

kamaal6• 14 years ago

Actually there was a time in the past two years, where a street revolution was inevitable. Especially last year and this year, both during Anna Hazare's fast.

But some how they couldn't hold on and fire died soon. Last year the fever was really high.

dharmach• 14 years ago

When the corrupt politicians take anti-democratic action like this one against the free speech, people en masse should repeat the same act in defiance. At least, all the Indians living outside should do it.

w1ntermute• 14 years ago

> India needs a cultural revolution, someone to suck the apathy out of the people and make them demand responsibility from their leaders.

The problem is that it's difficult to have a good democracy when you have low levels of human development. When 25% of the population is illiterate, a good number more lack a basic education, and half the children are malnourished, it's very difficult to get your average person on the street to care enough to make the right decision when election time rolls around.

amalag• 14 years ago

It's like the difference between a group of college students electing their teacher and a kindergarten electing their teacher.

denzil_correa4• 14 years ago

What an arcane law!

Section 66-A deals with messages sent via computer or communication devices which may be “grossly offensive,” have “menacing character,” or even cause “annoyance or inconvenience.” For offences under the section, a person can be fined and jailed up to three years.

If you cause "annoyance" or "inconvenience" to someone, you can be fined or jailed up to three years!

Edit - He has also clarified that he has just cited media reports and not made any new revelation. He just has 16 followers on Twitter. His arrest has got more to do with his involvement with IAC(India against Corruption) than anything else.

Deestan• 14 years ago

> If you cause "annoyance" or "inconvenience" to someone, you can be fined or jailed up to three years!

Only if you do it via electronic communication. Books, leaflets, etc have no corresponding laws.

sageikosa2• 14 years ago

If that is the extent of the law, then what is lacking is the concept of intent.

kamaal6• 14 years ago

>>If you cause "annoyance" or "inconvenience" to someone, you can be fined or jailed up to three years!

This doesn't even begin to describe ridiculous. Ever heard of IPC 498a?

For those who don't what it is- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowry_law_in_India

The law is such, you might even repent being a born a boy in India.

damncabbage• 14 years ago

  (a) Any willful conduct which is of such a nature as is likely to drive
  the woman to commit suicide or to cause grave injury or danger to life,
  limb or health whether mental or physical) of the woman; or

  (b) Harassment of the woman where such harassment is with a view to coercing
  her or any person related to her to meet any unlawful demand for any
  property or valuable security or is on account of failure by her or any
  person related to her meet such demand.[8]

Could you elaborate on your objections to the above? I am not familiar with its use or misuse.

cafard• 14 years ago

It might also be useful to give some background on how such a law came to be passed.

andyjohnson0• 14 years ago

Section 66-A deals with messages sent via computer or communication devices which may be “grossly offensive,” have “menacing character,” or even cause “annoyance or inconvenience.”

Sounds similar to the laws we have here in the UK. Section 127(2) of the Communications Act 2003 [1] states:

(2)A person is guilty of an offence if, for the purpose of causing annoyance, inconvenience or needless anxiety to another, he— (a)sends by means of a public electronic communications network, a message that he knows to be false, (b)causes such a message to be sent; or (c)persistently makes use of a public electronic communications network.

The act allows for imprisonment for up to six months, or a fine. It was the legal basis for the "Twitter Joke" trial [2]. In my opinion it is worryingly broad in its scope.

[1] http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/21/section/127

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twitter_Joke_Trial

experiment0• 14 years ago

Great speech from Rowan Atkinson about this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=g...

tetomb• 14 years ago

Thanks for posting this. http://reformsection5.org.uk/ Looks interesting.

drucken2• 14 years ago

This case, especially in the context of Rowan Atkinson's very eloquent speech, illustrates clearly why it is the West that has to set the standards for free speech.

By contrast, given what the UK has done in the past around Internet speech, the Indian case does not look unreasonable!

jagira• 14 years ago

Certain sections of Indian laws and its constitution were blindly lifted from UK's laws and its constitution.

aptwebapps• 14 years ago

But not, presumably, those pertaining to electronic communications.

drucken2• 14 years ago

The UK has an unwritten constitution...

fauigerzigerk• 14 years ago

This law may be too broad as well, but it's not nearly as bad as the Indian one. "a message that he knows to be false" is a pretty important limitation of what the law applies to. Mr. Srinivasan would probably not have been charged under the UK version of the law.

ananthrk• 14 years ago

The tweet was not even about the finance minister (Mr. Chidambaram) but about the finance minister's son (Karthi Chidambaram)

ashray• 14 years ago

Yeah I got confused by the article because it mentioned something about the tweets being about P Chidambaram.

Other such tweets reportedly made references to Mr. P. Chidambaram.

The fact that the tweet is about an even more low profile guy (although he IS the son of said finance minister) makes this even worse.

leephillips• 14 years ago

India also has a law against “deliberately hurting religious feelings,” which was exploited recently[1] by the Catholic Church.

[1] http://lee-phillips.org/IndiaNoDemocracy/

solutionyogi• 14 years ago

Sad and proves once again that India has no freedom of speech.

Great article on the topic by Amit Varma.

Don't Insult Pasta: http://indiauncut.com/iublog/article/dont-insult-pasta/

One of the most impressing thing about USA is that they have true freedom of speech and majority of people defend it furiously. I can't help but think but this is one of the major factor America is one of the leading nations in the world.

poundy• 14 years ago

“If you write a book that annoys or inconveniences me, even deliberately, I have no civil or criminal recourse. But if you send an e-mail message, or post a tweet, you could face three years in jail,” says Mr. Prakash. “That’s higher than the two-year imprisonment for causing death by negligence.”

sageikosa2• 14 years ago

That's when you start looking for tweets that promote the book...

denzil_correa4• 14 years ago

This is going to be interesting actually. Article 19 of the Indian constitution grants right to freedom of speech.

    *All citizens shall have the right* —
    to freedom of speech and expression;
    to assemble peaceably and without arms;
    to form associations or unions;
    to move freely throughout the territory of India;
    to reside and settle in any part of the territory of      India; and
    to practise any profession, or to carry on any    occupation, trade or business.

    *These rights are limited so as not to effect*:
    The integrity of India
    The security of the State
    Friendly relations with foreign States
    Public order
    Decency or morality
    Contempt of court
    Defamation or incitement to an offence

http://lawmin.nic.in/legislative/Art1-242%20(1-88).doc

kamaal6• 14 years ago

Their aim is not to send him to prison, but to trouble him and give him so many hassles with police and courts that he finally gives up.

By that way, they get to 'teach him the lesson' and 'make him example' to deter others from doing it.

TopTrix3• 14 years ago

That is exact point, the ruling party trying to do. Because most of the internet is flooding with articles against this govt.

denzil_correa4• 14 years ago

> By that way, they get to 'teach him the lesson' and 'make him example' to deter others from doing it.

I think it's going to back fire as it has done in the recent past.

makomk• 14 years ago

That has enough loopholes to drive a small dictatorship through, though.

TopTrix3• 14 years ago

India is not a country, where constitution works for Common man You have to have money power, muscle power and much more to use the rights give by constitution of India.

Most of the peoples always try to not to go to judiciary in whole life, because it will take your whole life time to get the results and you have to pour all your income, time in visiting dates of trial. No one -common people- believe the law and are realized it and get used to it. There are millions of cased pending in courts which are more than 70 60 yrs old and I feel the British rule was much better than this.

may i get punished to say all this, though this is the case with everyone and anything can happen with anyone.

sergiotapia• 14 years ago

Reminds me heavily of our Vice-President Alvaro Garcia Linera (Bolivia) going on record saying:

"I'm reading every negative post on Facebook that speaks ill of the government and writing down names. Names are being written down."

What horseshit! Scary thought; North Americans seem to take their free-speech for granted, as an inalienable right when in fact many countries in the world don't have such a thing. Enjoy it while you can.

TopTrix3• 14 years ago

Your should be thankful to God that you live in America.

CamperBob24• 14 years ago

God had nothing to do with anything. We only have our First Amendment protections because some Americans believed in them strongly enough to die and/or kill for them.

shrikant• 14 years ago

https://twitter.com/ravi_the_indian

According to the article, he had 16 followers as of Wednesday evening. Now he has 869 and growing.

Great work, Mr. Politico, you would get along fabulously with Barbra Streisand.

suprgeek• 14 years ago

Everybody on this thread is focusing (possibly rightly) on the issue of how badly drafted the law is and how broad it is. What people in the forum might not appreciate is how completely the Police in India is under the thumb of of the politically connected and the Rich. Having stayed in India for the last 5 years, the modern version of the Police force is a very scary to behold.

Imagine that this is the result of an EMAIL from the son of the Union minister. In India even in very serious cases involving common people such as Murder, Arson, Rape etc the police always make a show of waiting for a WRITTEN compliant before they can even start investigation. The politicians cynically abuse the Police force to openly stifle dissent and hassle the common man - India is descending into a Banana republic at an alarming speed - very sad.

namank3• 14 years ago

India is descending into a Banana republic at an alarming speed - very sad.

To be fair, India is rising up from it; used to be a lot worse.

easternmonk2• 14 years ago

India is already a banana republic.

thewisedude• 14 years ago

I for one think that if the law was drafted "properly", there is very little police can do about it even if the ministers (who supposedly use them) are pissed off and want the police to do something about it.

Such cases happen even in USA, where certain people are charged for misdemeanor's which are not uniformly enforced across the population. An example I can think of is the Eliot Spitzer-Call Girl in DC scandal.

namank3• 14 years ago

...if the law was drafted "properly", there is very little police can do about it even if the ministers (who supposedly use them) are pissed off and want the police to do something about it.

That doesn't fit in with the nature of gov't corruption or politics.

These actions usually have hidden agendas that are instigated and planned at the party level. At the risk of oversimplifying, while one member sees the law made, another one acts on it.

yummyfajitas• 14 years ago

Just to clarify, Spitzer escaped prosecution for hiring prostitutes. However, he personally prosecuted many people for prostitution.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/10/nyregion/10cnd-spitzer.htm...

(I read your wording as implying Spitzer was subjected to harsher treatment than normal, so thought the clarification was helpful.)

hashpipe2• 14 years ago

The problem is that out of the 3 main bodies in any country - politicians, bureaucrats, and the armed forces - India has always had a nexus amongst the first two. Although this is much better than politicians+armed forces, it still is a problem. I won't go so far to say that we are descending into a Banana republic as yet; but if the alarming rate at which income inequality is growing right now is not checked, then yes that day wont be far.

easternmonk2• 14 years ago

India's Police system and the laws such as Criminal Procedure Laws were formulated by British. The objective was to keep citizens completely depended on goodwill of police and politicians to be free and safe. The exact same laws have continued.

known4• 14 years ago

"Diverse society is bound to fail" --Robert Putnam. http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/08/05/t...

savrajsingh• 14 years ago

Here's an article in NYT that gives you insight into the Indian Justice System:

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/06/01/world/in-india-the-wheels-...

And here's an example of an organization fighting for justice against state crimes:

http://www.ensaaf.org

known4• 14 years ago

Caste = Corrupt by birth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scandals_in_India

fredBuddemeyer• 14 years ago

does anyone have any ideas on what we could do to help this person?

swamy_g• 14 years ago

Follow him on Twitter, use a hash tag (#SupportRaviSrinivasan or whatever), if you are outside India, tweet to your local/national news papers. Or just bomb @KartiPC with your complaints.

known4• 14 years ago

Campaign Against Arrest of Ravi Srinivasan for a Tweet http://getup4change.org/rti/support-free-speech/

denzil_correa4• 14 years ago

There is now a "Campaign Against Arrest of Ravi Srinivasan for a Tweet" [0]. This issue is getting a lot of attention in the international media too [1].

[0] http://getup4change.org/rti/support-free-speech/ [1] http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2012/10/31...

Man faces 3 years in prison for tweeting about finance minister in India

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