Across the US, people are dismantling and destroying Flock surveillance cameras

https://www.bloodinthemachine.com/p/across-the-us-people-are-dismantling

by latexr • 5 months ago

467 253 5 months ago

People always hated the cameras. It's just that now that people feel comfortable that the government won't move heaven and earth to come after them for daring to vandalize it's infrastructure they're finally acting up. But they wanted to all along.

tl2do• 5 months ago

I have similar and deep privacy concerns. But I also know that cameras have helped find criminals and assist crime victims. I don't want to let fugitives go without punishment. In fact, I must admit that cameras are a realistic choice given the current technology.

Flock Safety must be under public evaluation. Tech companies tend to hide technical specs, calling them trade secrets. But most internet security standards are public. What should be private is the encryption key. The measure to protect development effort is patents, which are public in the registry.

lm28469• 5 months ago

The cameras aren't the problem, it's the companies behind them.

Everybody wants murderers and rapists in jail, nobody wants to 24/7 share their location and upload their every thoughts to palantir and other companies operated by degenerates like Thiel

plagiarist• 5 months ago

24/7 share their location and upload their every thoughts to palantir and other companies operated by degenerates like Thiel

It's so funny though that the majority of all people are doing exactly this, 24/7.

loeg2• 5 months ago

A significant number of people do not seem to want copper thieves, porch pirates, and organized retail thieves in jail.

lich_king• 5 months ago

Why are tech specs relevant here? The problem with Flock is that once the data is collected, and once it's made accessible to law enforcement without any legal review, it's going to be used for solving heinous crimes, for keeping tabs on a vocal critic of the police commissioner, and for checking what the officer's ex-wife is up to.

If the cameras were installed and operated by the DHS or by the local PD, would that make you feel better? The data should not exist, or if it must, it shouldn't be accessible without court approval. The model you're proposing doesn't ensure that; in fact, it moves it closer to the parties most likely to misuse it.

fzeroracer• 5 months ago

This has nothing to do with the actual problem, which is Flock itself.

The fact that Flock controls all of the cameras, all of the data and said data is easily accessible means police and the state have access to information that they should only get with a warrant. A business having a camera storing video data that's completely local isn't an issue. A business having a camera which is connected to every other business that has a camera is.

Manuel_D2• 5 months ago

Since when are warrants required for footage of people in public? Does a red light camera need a judge's warrant before it snaps a photos of a car running the light?

tadfisher• 5 months ago

I don't want to let fugitives go without punishment.

There is a famous quote about this that needs to be updated for the modern age.

"I'd rather let ten fugitives go unsurveilled, than to surveil one innocent person."

vorpalhex2• 5 months ago

Follow the money.

There's no money to be made arresting criminals. Sure you get a few police contracts, and you need to show enough results to keep them.. but your moat is mostly how hard it is to even submit bids.

There's a lot more money to be made knowing that Accountant Mary's Lexis is looking kind of banged up and she could be sold on a new one.

mullingitover2• 5 months ago

I'm surprised the flock cameras aren't being disabled in a more subtle fashion.

All it takes is a tiny drone with a stick attached, and at the end of that stick is a tiny sponge soaked with tempera paint. Drone goes 'boop' on the camera lens, and the entire system is disabled until an expensive technician drives out with a ladder and cleans the lens at non-trivial expense.

A handful of enterprising activists could blind all the flock cameras in a region in a day or two, and without destroying them, which makes it less of an overtly criminal act.

Obviously not advocating this, just pointing out that flock is very vulnerable to this very simple attack from activists.

idle_zealot• 5 months ago

The goal here by activists isn't to directly physically disarm every camera. Like with any act of protest, it's at least as much about the optics and influence of public opinion. Visibly destroying the units is more cathartic and spreads the message of displeasure better. Ultimately what needs to change is public perception and policy.

mullingitover2• 5 months ago

Sure, but por que no los dos.

One or two cameras getting bashed is basically a fart in the wind for flock, and I'd argue that it doesn't actually move the needle in any direction as far as public opinion goes. Those who dislike them don't need further convincing, those who support them are not going to have their opinion changed by property destruction (it might make them support surveillance more, in fact).

But hey, it's provocative I guess.

On the other hand flock losing their entire fleet is an existential problem for them, and for all the customers they're charging for the use of that fleet. Their BoD will want answers about why the officers of the company are harming shareholders with the way they're operating the business. Cities that have contracts with them may have grounds to terminate them, etc etc.

andrewflnr• 5 months ago

If it's about sending a message, I think using a drone to defeat mass surveillance is quite evocative.

reactordev• 5 months ago

That poor printer in Office Space…

lazide• 5 months ago

There has been a pattern in the UK of destroying speed cameras for the same reasons - including in some cases throwing an old car tire around the pole and setting it on fire.

Seems to be getting more popular [https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/antiulez-campaigners-v...].

tiagod• 5 months ago

Goring them is about sending a message.

robotnikman• 5 months ago

Somewhat related, I'm pretty sure there was a guy in China who did exactly this as protest against their surveillance. Seems effective.

cheonn638• 5 months ago

All it takes is a tiny drone with a stick attached, and at the end of that stick is a tiny sponge soaked with tempera paint. Drone goes 'boop' on the camera lens, and the entire system is disabled until an expensive technician drives out with a ladder and cleans the lens at non-trivial expense

Americans don’t care enough

Too busy enjoying S&P500 near 7,000 and US$84,000/year median household income

stavros6• 5 months ago

Why would I fly an expensive drone close to a camera, fumble about for a minute trying to get it painted like a renaissance artist, when I can get a paintball gun for much less?

shawn_w• 5 months ago

So you can do it without your image being captured by the camera?

dyauspitr6• 5 months ago

I don’t think they make commercial paintballs with hard to remove enamel or tempura paints.

martin-t2• 5 months ago

Last I heard, putting a glock on a quadcopter was creating an "illegal weapon system" or similar fancy sounding BS but I wonder what the accusation would be for a paintball gun on a drone?

Must less recoil too.

culi5• 5 months ago

Or use a powerful enough laser pointer. Bonus points if you use infrared since other humans can't see the beam and won't know what you're up to.

Though you either need a laser powerful enough to harm human eyes or lots of patience. Hong Kong protesters innovated a lot of these sort of resistance using lasers

Stevvo• 5 months ago

Why get an expensive paintball gun when you can get a mask and a can of paint and a mask for much less?

DonHopkins• 5 months ago

Mitch Altman should make a "Flock-B-Gone".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV-B-Gone

dyauspitr6• 5 months ago

Why wouldn’t you advocate it? A much easier way of doing this is using paintballs with the appropriate paint.

martin-t2• 5 months ago

Why wouldn’t you advocate it?

Because advocating things which are moral/ethical but illegal is often against the TOS :(

We need laws which are explicitly based on moral principles. Barring that, we should at least have laws which treat sufficiently large platforms as utilities and forbid them from performing censorship without due process.

toomuchtodo• 5 months ago

You can put a garbage bag over them if you don’t want to sawzall the pole and dispose of the hardware.

jimnotgym7• 5 months ago

What you want is for this to become a Tiktok craze.

soulofmischief• 5 months ago

A handful of enterprising activists could blind all the flock cameras in a region in a day or two, and without destroying them, which makes it less of an overtly criminal act

No, that would likely end in a RICO or terrorism case if it continued. Just because the cameras aren't destroyed doesn't mean CorpGov won't want to teach a lesson.

vorpalhex2• 5 months ago

You want to fly a multi-hundred dollar device loaded with radios that constantly broadcasts out a unique ID and possibly your FAA ID and use it for crime?

Or even better yet, get arrested halfway to trying to dip your drone into paint on a sidewalk?

Just throw a rock at the stupid thing.

logankeenan• 5 months ago

Do all drones do this now? Is this required by law for manufacturers to implement?

jimnotgym7• 5 months ago

In 1950s UK every country kid had a catapult in their pocket. Maybe that is what we should do. Give the kids catapults and tell them not to use them on Flock cameras. That is usually effective at making kids so stuff

api• 5 months ago

In Minecraft it’s well known that lasers of even moderate power can ruin camera sensors. Only in Minecraft though.

uoaei2• 5 months ago

Reflections are a concern regarding bystanders' eye safety, be safe.

dsl2• 5 months ago

LIDAR has been screwing up traffic cameras.

JumpCrisscross4• 5 months ago

All it takes is a tiny drone with a stick attached, and at the end of that stick is a tiny sponge soaked with tempera paint

I (EDIT: hate) Flock Safety cameras. If someone did this in my town, I’d want them arrested.

They’re muddying the moral clarity of the anti-Flock messaging, the ultimate goal in any protest. And if they’re willing to damage that property, I’m not convinced they understand why they shouldn’t damage other property. (More confidently, I’m not convinced others believe they can tell the difference.)

Flock Safety messages on security. Undermining that pitch is helpful. Underwriting it with random acts of performative chaos plays into their appeal.

flock is very vulnerable to this very simple attack

We live in a free society, i.e. one with significant individual autonomy. We’re all always very vulnerable. That’s the social contract. (The fact that folks actually contemplating violent attacks tend to be idiots helps, too.)

encrypted_bird• 5 months ago

I haste Flock Safety cameras.

Was this a typo? If not, what does "haste" mean in this context? (I'm not messing with you; I'm genuinely wondering.)

malfist• 5 months ago

Oh please. Its tempera paint. It'll probably wash off in the next rain.

jbxntuehineoh• 5 months ago

Oh no! Not property damage! We can't possibly go that far!

SoftTalker• 5 months ago

The point of civil disobedience is to get arrested. That's what calls attention to the injustice of the thing being protested against.

michaelmrose3• 5 months ago

The point of resistance is commonly to harm the counterparty in a fashion that the perpetrator finds morally acceptable such as to disincentivize them not convince them.

Vietnamese vs US Grunts not cute useless protestors holding signs that threaten to hold different signs longer.

uoaei2• 5 months ago

That would be detectable by the FAA and they would send the FBI after you, unless you used a junk toy drone but that would not cover much distance between charges.

petre• 5 months ago

Because destroying them sends a different message. People want them gone, not merely disabled. They're not joking or messing around with drones and tempera about it. Using a firearm to wreck the camera lens before tearing the whole thing down would be nice though.

Rapzid• 5 months ago

The should disable them all in an area and pile them on a platter in a public space. Like a CiCi's takeover.

kybernetyk• 5 months ago

All it takes is a tiny drone with a stick attached, and at the end of that stick is a tiny sponge soaked with tempera paint.

This must be the most hi-tech solution to a low tech problem I've seen this week ;)

mzi• 5 months ago

soaked with tempera paint Or even etching liquid, then you need to replace the lens.

tamimio• 5 months ago

I wouldn’t suggest doing that, it will result in more regulation restricting drones. I joined before few workshops that included the government too, and there were discussions about requiring a whole license every time you modify the drone, not limited to the airframe, but the flight purpose and payload. So you can imagine in the future, modding or repurposing your drone could be a “federal crime” if you don’t go and re-license the drone every time you change the payload.

wolvoleo2• 5 months ago

Shooting them with a paintball gun might be a lot simpler and has the same effect. Just needs paint that's a bit harder to remove

kotaKat3• 5 months ago

Silly string is fast, cheap, easy, and fun when it freezes onto the camera in colder environments.

Maybe some spray foam?

rationalist2• 5 months ago

Seems like it would produce a lot of litter on the ground before covering up the lens adequately.

mock-possum2• 5 months ago

“All it takes is a tiny drone”

Alright you buy one for me and I’ll consider it

diego_moita2• 5 months ago

Meanwhile, in Brazil, a market is growing for stolen surveillance cameras. Just think how lovely: a technology created to restrict crime is actually feeding it.

givemeethekeys2• 5 months ago

Why is the market growing for stolen surveillance cameras in Brazil?

diego_moita2• 5 months ago

Because they're easy to steal.

Lammy• 5 months ago

Ultra-based. Fuck these creepy things and anyone who installs them.

kdogkshd• 5 months ago

If you're in the bay area, on Monday at 6:30 there's a mountain view city council meeting where flock is on the agenda. If this surveillance bothers you, show up!!

TheBicPen• 5 months ago

Do you have a link to the agenda? The only Monday meeting I see on the mountain view site is a Board of Library Trustees meeting

shadowfacts• 5 months ago

It’s listed on the agenda here as “Automated License Plate Reader Contract.” https://mountainview.legistar.com/MeetingDetail.aspx?ID=1352...

tencentshill2• 5 months ago

Always trust anonymous accounts to tell you how to organize!

SilverElfin• 5 months ago

Speed cameras next. Just another privacy violating device that is also a revenue source for irresponsible local leaders.

culi5• 5 months ago

Hmm your comment made me curious so I looked into it. I guess the error rates are so incredibly high it seems likely they aren't "errors" at all.

https://reason.com/2022/02/03/unreliable-speed-cameras-line-...

In Chicago, where speed cameras are abundant, the camera program improperly gave out over $2.4 million in fines from 2013 to 2015. Using a random sample analysis, the Chicago Tribune estimated the number of bad tickets to be somewhere around 110,000. The erroneous fines were issued in areas without proper speed limit signs or during times when the cameras should have been turned off. (Cameras near parks and schools operate within a specific timeframe.) The Chicago Tribune found that over half the cameras in use were giving out faulty speeding tickets.
Unsurprisingly, the misuse of speed cameras has also become a massive source of revenue for local government. In Chicago, 300 of the city's speed cameras would bring in about $15 million each year.
In March, Chicago Mayor Lori Lightfoot lowered the speed limit threshold for speed cameras to trigger a citation. Cameras now trigger when a driver goes over the limit by 6 miles per hour, rather than 10 miles per hour, the previous threshold.

I think we need to make it easier for people to fight back against automatic tickets like this. The onus should be on the state not the individual. And individuals should still be entitled to their data

asadotzler• 5 months ago

Good. Throw a monkey wrench into their gears at every opportunity you're comfortable with. Don't let them get away with tearing down our basic needs for privacy and safety. We don't have to give in to Big Tech and its surveillance for profit goals.

grensley• 5 months ago

Here's a list of Flock's investors:

- Andreessen Horowitz

- Greenoaks Capital

- Bedrock Capital

- Meritech Capital

- Matrix Partners

- Sands Capital

- Founders Fund

- Kleiner Perkins

- Tiger Global

- Y Combinator

maximinus_thrax• 5 months ago

I am absolutely shocked

globalnode• 5 months ago

flock safety were in one of y combinators incubator programs but to be fair, saying you want to make a camera company to improve public safety but then being used in a dystopian way... well it should have been foreseeable shouldn't it? Im conflicted in this, I love camera tech and its probably not going away any time soon, but wonder how it could be used responsibly for public safety only.

Cipater2• 5 months ago

They actively WANT the dystopian surveillance state.

Cipater2• 5 months ago

Y Combinator's CEO promotes and praises them almost every day.

camillomiller2• 5 months ago

Pretty clear already that Ycombinator runs this very site as a community fueled decoy for their actual values (or complete lack thereof).

lionkor• 5 months ago

Id argue they run this site as a forum for tech discussions, because that alone gives them a huge boost to their image and name recognition, without any need for meddling.

Bender3• 5 months ago

More like a crowd-sources think-tank and SEO magnet.

sli• 5 months ago

This will start happening to Ring cameras as well soon if it's not already.

floren• 5 months ago

Hello! You are being recor--hey what are you doing stop that, I'm afraid, Dave, I'm afraid...

phendrenad23• 5 months ago

Yeah right. Destroying cameras owned by a HOA in a wealthy area is one thing, destroying people's private cameras is another. A good way to get in a fight, though, if you're into that.

odie55332• 5 months ago

Flock cameras are assisted suicide for dying neighborhoods. They don't prevent crime, they record crime. Cleaning up vacant lots, planting trees, street lighting, trash removal, and traffic calming like adding planters and crosswalks reduce crime.

monero-xmr2• 5 months ago

The vast majority of crimes are committed by a small percentage of people. The real issue is prosecutors who refuse to incarcerate repeat offenders. But having video evidence is a powerful tool for a motivated prosecutor to actually take criminals off the streets

loeg2• 5 months ago

The real issue is prosecutors who refuse to incarcerate repeat offenders.

Sometimes judges contribute as well.

thrance• 5 months ago

Any evidence of what you're saying about prosecutors and video surveillance?

FpUser3• 5 months ago

"The real issue is prosecutors who refuse to incarcerate repeat offenders"

Sure. US prosecutors are so lenient that the US is the capital of incarceration

odie55332• 5 months ago

We spend $80 billion a year on incarceration in the US, and have the highest incarceration rate in the world. Your plan increases both. Do you honestly think that if we spend $160 billion or $240 billion a year and double or triple our incarcerated population that we'd solve crime?

Look at places and countries with low crime. They don't have the most Flock cameras, the most prisoners, or the most powerful surveillance evidence because while those may solve a crime, they don't solve crime as a whole.

culi5• 5 months ago

It's wild that you think the problem with the US is too low of an incarceration rate. 25% of all prisoners in the world are in the US

dyauspitr6• 5 months ago

I agree. There needs to be a non racist president that just sweeps in and does a El Salvador type cleanup of the streets. I bet the 80%+ of normal black people in crime ridden cities like Baltimore, St. Louis, Memphis, Detroit, New Orleans would be in full support. Let’s be honest, young black gangsters are the main criminal element in these places. Trump can’t do this because he is a piece of shit with no integrity.

tencentshill2• 5 months ago

You can get video evidence without sending it to a massive, opaque national database of non-suspects.

leoh• 5 months ago

What is crime anymore when a felon is the president?

NoMoreNicksLeft5• 5 months ago

What is a felony anymore when the felony is "submitted bad paperwork"?

drumttocs82• 5 months ago

You are hitting on the fundamental difference in political views.

Half of this country believes problems are systemic and can be fixed. The other half believes they are a natural consequence of culture, race, and invisible flying creatures that tempt you to do bad things.

swed420• 5 months ago

Half of this country believes problems are systemic and can be fixed.

So then why don't they vote for the party that offers systemic solutions? Oh, right, because neither corporate party offers such.

We can't elect systemic solutions when the election and education processes are systemically hijacked by capital interests.

landl0rd• 5 months ago

This is cool and all but Ring is the vastly more important target.

I don't think we can pretend the definition of "public" didn't change, now that it means "something is likely recorded for all time and you have no control over where it goes and literally everyone in the world can see it."

burnt-resistor• 5 months ago

False dichotomy. Both are bad.

pmarreck• 5 months ago

Next they can work on the Adhan speakers

throwsame12304• 5 months ago

Wait til they hear about Obvio https://www.obvio.ai/

ifwinterco2• 5 months ago

Is funny reading this from the UK because this ship sailed here years ago, you just have to assume if you drive a car anywhere except small roads in the countryside you are potentially being tracked by ANPR.

Of course, actual serious criminals who are actively committing serious crimes just use fake plates so they aren't affected, it only really helps catch people who commit crimes on the spur of the moment (while also obviously eroding every "normal" person's privacy)

tetris11• 5 months ago

It also encourages councils to regularly change their road signs for side roads, to catch suddenly new trespassers in real time.

jimnotgym7• 5 months ago

except small roads in the countryside you are potentially being tracked by ANPR.

They do put them specifically whereever those roads join major roads though. Meanwhile the crime stats in the UK make chilling reading, as the focus on replacing Police officers with cameras, replacing courts with... nothing has lead to many crimes skyrocketing, especially those that are not associated with driving a car.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeand...

ifwinterco2• 5 months ago

Yep, I mean "proper" countryside - I grew up out in the villages (all little B roads and unclassified roads) and it's still like the Wild West out there really.

A lot of people still habitually drink drive (not getting completely smashed, but a few pints at a country pub then drive home) and realistically as long as you don't crash you could do that for decades and probably get away with it.

There's almost no cameras and also almost no actual police

macki02• 5 months ago

Big difference though is that in the UK these cameras are publically owned, and the data feeds into a publically owned ANPR database. Whereas Flock cameras are owned by flock and all the ANPR records are stored on their own infrastructure

jimnotgym7• 5 months ago

In the UK these cameras are everywhere.

We have (a relatively recent phenomenon) elected Police and Crime Commissioners. They are elected with a tiny turnout. Next election in your area see if a candidate is anti-surveillance and run a campaign to support them. 10,000 extra votes to any of the mainstream candidates will get them elected.

Another addition to this thread of things that will never happen.

hdgvhicv• 5 months ago

PCCs are being scrapped and their role reverted to national government

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c93d4dd3l3lo

Party because people haven’t got a clue what they do, partly as they have very little power, and party as it’s just a popularity vote on the rosette.

Personally I’m more worried about ring door bells, but I’ve spent years being told I’m paranoid.

tonyedgecombe• 5 months ago

In the UK these cameras are everywhere.

We don’t have as many (per capita) as the US.

macki02• 5 months ago

I don’t believe Flock cameras are used anywhere in the UK?

Pretty much all public cctv cameras that are installed on the side of public roads, like Flock are in the US, are publically owned, either by Police forces, Local Councils or National highways.

jimnotgym7• 5 months ago

In US law, if the camera is doing something unconstitutional, is damaging it a crime? Genuine question.

nkrisc3• 5 months ago

Almost certainly. Random people are not the legal arbiters of what’s unconstitutional.

I can’t say I disagree with what they’re doing, but it’s absolutely vigilante justice, not legal.

jimnotgym7• 5 months ago

It seems odd though. Don't you have the right to bear arms, with some idea that it is needed to prevent the government from exercising excessive powers over you, yet actually doing anything with those guns to protect yourself from tyranny is a crime?

I remember hearing once that the constitution, having been written by a bunch of insurrectionists, intended people to have the power to keep the government out of their business. It seems they have lost that?

alansaber2• 5 months ago

Pales in comparison to the disgruntlement around the ultra low emission zone around London https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz7y2xyxg7vo

Towaway69• 5 months ago

The explosion damaged a van opposite and blew out the tyre of a car as well as damaging a wall, front porch, shed and a Wendy house.
Shrapnel also shot through a passing car into a passenger seat, while another piece of metal damaged the window frame of a child's bedroom.

Wtf. That was a “homemade” bomb to bring down one camera.

Across the US, people are dismantling and destroying Flock surveillance cameras

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