Canada's deal with China signals it is serious about shift from US

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cm24k6kk1rko

by breve • 6 months ago

189 229 6 months ago

JKolios• 6 months ago

Casual threats of invasion don't build solid and lasting partnerships? Who knew.

Nearly every day, I wonder what the top Republican leaders honestly think about these foreseeable outcomes. They made a deal with the devil -power at any cost.

It is going to be a rough ride as America re-calibrates to a world which no longer relies on it. We took enormous amounts of benefits for granted.

xracy• 6 months ago

power at any cost.

I mean, but they're not feeding into the US's power. So they're like, buying into a depreciating asset. This actively signals the US is losing power to China given that it's _formerly top ally_ is making trading partnerships with one of it's nominal "enemies". Anyone who can think more than a month out, can see this will result in the US losing power in the long run.

Insanity5• 6 months ago

Thinking more than a week out is already a challenge for the current administration. A month would be a Herculean task.

ehsankia• 6 months ago

So they're like, buying into a depreciating asset

Part of the issue is that the average age of the House is ~55 and for the senate it's above 60. So they have a lot less incentive to care about that, or about climate change.

andrewflnr• 6 months ago

Personal power. Specifically winning elections at any cost, including the cost of more important forms of power.

fakedang6• 6 months ago

Reminds me of Russia post-Soviet collapse when all of the SSRs rushed to form their own blocs or align with the West, while the Russians thought they would continue to align with their former overlords in Moscow.

USA will definitely turn into the new Russia if it continues to go on this path. It has already exhausted most of its cultural and moral capital, and its tech sector is already under threat in its major allies. It will continue to stay relevant for maybe a generation or two but it will turn largely irrelevant by the turn of the century, just like the British Empire or Russia today. Assuming, of course, that it doesn't correct course.

pupppet• 6 months ago

Funny how those throwing fuel on the fire are the same ones building bunkers.

jbm• 6 months ago

My Chinese friends refer to Trump as the "Builder of the Nation" (the nation being China)

I wonder how wide spread drug abuse is among the moneyed elite and how paranoia and other related factors are affecting their decisions

linkage• 6 months ago

I wonder what the top Republican leaders honestly think about these foreseeable outcomes

It doesn't matter what they think. Trump's message resonates with the electorate much more effectively than theirs, partly because of his political brand and partly because he has a network of social media acolytes who broadcast his messaging to each segment and demographic. It's a positive feedback loop wherein anyone who dares to go off-message or criticize his decisions gets instantaneous blowback from the MAGA audience themselves, so they quickly recalibrate. At this point, Trump has built a metaphorical tower of skulls of political foes within the party (e.g. Marjorie Taylor Greene).

sho_hn• 6 months ago

Despite everything that has happened over the past year, the Democrats only have a few percentage points lead over the Republicans in current midterm polling. As an outside observer: Absolutely wild. I know a lot about the reasons, but it still feels completely surreal.

nitwit005• 6 months ago

They don't share Trump's message, or not exactly. They share an edited version of it. That seems to be why Trump has started insisting he's serious repeatedly. The conservative media is ignoring or toning down the least popular ideas.

3eb7988a16633• 6 months ago

It matters to me, because they were not powerless to stop this scenario. The point of a representative democracy.

After January 6th, Mitch McConnell could have whipped up the votes to impeach Trump. Forever banishing him from office. Or over the past four years, when asked, "Did Donald Trump lose the election" instead of equivocating, every Congressperson could have said, "Of course he did. Donald Trump is a loser who lost a fair election, but threw a tantrum when the result did not go his way."

Liz Cheney took a stand, and the party punished her for it. Trump was too popular, Republicans preferred to latch onto that energy, despite the consequences.

No raindrop thinks it is responsible for the flood. These leaders enabled this scenario, because they (correctly!) predicted it could help them hold onto power. Now we watch the results unfold as the world does everything to extricate itself from the USA.

MattDaEskimo• 6 months ago

They'll have cannibalized enough money for themselves to leave and retire

blibble2• 6 months ago

they better not be holding dollars

wrs• 6 months ago

Are there any top Republican leaders left? In what way are they leading?

giarc3• 6 months ago

I wonder how many will simply become "Trump Republicans" and follow some other leader when he's gone? Or will some simply pretend to wake up and have realized they had Trump Derangement Syndrome the whole time and are ready to come back to reality?

tzs3• 6 months ago

No. You can see this on what happened to a recent bill for a drinking water project in Colorado.

It was so uncontroversial that it passed the House by unanimous consent. That doesn't mean 100% were for it, but it means any who were not didn't think it was worth making even a token effort to stop it.

In the Senate they passed it on a voice vote, which is what they use for routine and completely non-controversial bills. They are all asked to say yea or nay, and the presiding officer calls it for whichever they think they heard the most of and if no one objects that they misheard it passes.

Trump vetoed it. The official reason given was some bullshit about costs, but no one believes that. The leading theories are that it is because it is important to Lauren Boebert's district and because Colorado won't release Tina Peters from prison.

Boebert upset Trump by being one of the Republican House votes to force the release of the Epstein files.

Tina Peters was an election official who did various illegal and shady things [1] that Trump approves of.

The House failed to override the veto. They are so afraid of angering Trump that they couldn't get 1/3 of Republican House members to to go against Trump on something that they themselves had just recently found completely uncontroversial.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tina_Peters_(politician)

Animats4• 6 months ago

There was a "Never Trump" movement of Republican leaders. It's dead.[1] By now, most of the Never Trumpers are either out of power or have groveled to Trump. The National Review, a conservative publication, wrote: "At no point did Never Trump possess the basic traits of a political movement: a small number of leaders and large number of followers." It was all leaders, or former leaders, or people who thought they should be leaders. The article says Never Trump was composed of "1) experts in foreign policy, economics, and law ... 2) campaign professionals ... and 3) public intellectuals ..." Not Republican governors and members of Congress. Not big donors. Those people only matter when they're in power. There are small conservative journals in which they still write. Few read them. They're not on Fox News.

It's not at all clear what the GOP looks like after Trump. The most likely Republican successors are said to be Vance, Rubio, and DeSantis. The last two have failed badly at presidential bids before.

[1] https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/the-end-of-never-trump...

deadbabe2• 6 months ago

Don’t know how to tell people this, but the world doesn’t really need America to be the country everyone relies on. We may be better off with diversity. Increase your international exposure.

dig1• 6 months ago

True. But the US want to remain the country everyone relies on if it wants to preserve the dollar as the world's primary trade, reserve and settlement currency.

Dollar dominance gives the US disproportionate leverage over global finance and allows it to shape the rules of the system. Absent this asymmetry, it is difficult to imagine US tariffs or financial pressure (or any kind of pressure) would carry comparable global impact.

mtzaldo• 6 months ago

What are you talking about? The US navy protects the commercial shipment routes around the world.

3eb7988a16633• 6 months ago

Totally - it is the best outcome for the world. As an American, it is sad to see the loss of status, power, everything that is coming our way in the near future.

rediguanayum• 6 months ago

Agreed completely. Part of this deal is that the Canadian auto market is no longer protected against Chinese EVs which substantially undercut the legacies. There is also news that the Europeans are making about to make a similar deal with China. Imagine what the United States economy will be like if Stellantis, Ford, or GM or all of them go bankrupt. 3-4 million in lost jobs alone.

Trump wants to tariff countries that support Denmark and Greenland. That's like all of the other NATO countries. What happens if NATO doesn't exist? No more bases to support Middle East operations and no more intelligence sharing.

It will mean more support from the Canadians and Europeans for moving trade to be denominated by Renminbi.

I don't think the Republican leadership has thought through the implications to the US with their deal with the devil.

trhway• 6 months ago

Imagine what the United States economy will be like if Stellantis, Ford, or GM or all of them go bankrupt. 3-4 million in lost jobs alone.

They wouldn't go bankrupt. They will be saved and protected by government bailouts and tariffs, and the situation will become similar to say Russia car industry. Though, naturally, the situation with Russian cars has become so bad that even they are forced to massively open market to Chinese cars (and even "Russian cars" become more and more just simple rebadge of Chinese cars).

In short - if you don't compete by increasing productivity, efficiency, quality, you will be overtaken by the ones who do. The government actions may prolong your complacency time, yet ultimately such prolongation is just the time you actually lose falling more and more behind.

The whole world by now, 20 years after Tesla roadster, should have been driving American EVs, yet instead we have classic paradigm shift there US is Sun Microsystems and EVs/solar/wind/batteries is Linux/x86.

arjie• 6 months ago

This is a negative-sum choice being made by everyone but China. Chinese cars will decimate the European motor industry. Volvo is already gone. BMW, Porsche, Volkswagen will follow. This will hurt Europe a lot more than it will hurt America.

The pressures of a democratic society will force Western governments to extract money from their productive sectors and redirect them to their comparatively unproductive auto sectors.

Watching an increasingly aging Europe try to sustain its expensive welfare state while losing its biggest industries and facing a war citizens don't have the heart to prosecute is going to be interesting. Already French retirees make more than the average working man there.

They won't fight. They won't work. They won't provide children. To retirees, replacing local industry with Chinese manufacturing is a no-brainer: everything gets cheaper. With the resulting loss of well-paying jobs, healthcare for the elderly and wait staff will get even cheaper. A bonanza for a generation soon to disappear leaving the bits to be picked up by their most ardent fans.

blibble2• 6 months ago

What happens if NATO doesn't exist? No more bases to support Middle East operations and no more intelligence sharing.

if it uses its base in Greenland to annex it, the US military will be promptly evicted from every base in the world

at which point it returns to being a regional power

voidmain0001• 6 months ago

Cheaper foreign vehicles will also hurt the automotive industry in Ontario, Canada. So, this is an interesting move from the Canadian fed govt.

https://www.investontario.ca/automotive

SecretDreams4• 6 months ago

Nearly every day, I wonder what the top Republican leaders honestly think about these foreseeable outcomes.

Do you think anyone in charge has any long term vision capability to be thinking about such foreseeable outcomes?

jszymborski• 6 months ago

"Fuck you, I've got mine" I think is the only thought any US politician with a modicum of power is thinking at this moment.

oaiey8• 6 months ago

I do not believe that. Project 2025 was a documented plan and is executed. Someone is profiting of that. So the outcomes are what was the plan. Question is: will it suck for the general population. Answer is yes

dyauspitr• 6 months ago

They are laser focused on making this a whiter nation with lesser rights for women and no ambiguous LGBTQ. From all the literature it seems like they believe that this demographic reversion will over the long term solve all their problems. They are not looking to optimize for anything else now including the loss of hegemony and influence. This is going to be completely and irreversibly devastating for the United States.

cmxch8• 6 months ago

Maybe next time, don’t make a quota system that generationally and professionally excludes those who don’t fit well in DEI metrics?

Or if you do, at least have the dignity to pay them handsomely for the privilege of enduring demographic exclusion from academia and the workplace?

CodingJeebus5• 6 months ago

Nearly every day, I wonder what the top Republican leaders honestly think about these foreseeable outcomes.

Simple. They see opportunities to blame the opposition for the failure of their economic policy. They've been doing it for decades with great success.

oaiey8• 6 months ago

That will not be that easy this time. Too direct is the elemination of any international collaboration a result of the Trump / Project 2025 leadership.

shahbaby• 6 months ago

Does it impact you that much?

dh20222• 6 months ago

The high prices due to Donnie's policies absolutely impact me. I paid $5 for a piece of plastic that before used to cost $2. I paid $55 / fire alarm - this used to be under $30. I paid $55 for 2 dishes at a "cheap" Chinese take-out. At these prices I balked at buying some Chinese food for myself - I only bought these dishes for my son to eat.

So yeah, it's bad.

bronson• 6 months ago

A few weeks before the tariff idiocy, I paid $320 including shipping for an ebike battery from the EU. When it arrived, it included a bill for an additional $350 from US Customs. That's insane, I refused.

When returning to sender, the package disappeared, presumably into Customs. I'm out $320 and still no battery.

layer82• 6 months ago

The Greenland topic has the potential to disrupt the relations with Europe (and the NATO, by association) even more than the Ukraine/Russia one. Today he announced new 10% tariffs, to be increased to 25% in June if Greenland isn’t sold to the US.

Animats4• 6 months ago

We find out on Tuesday if the Supreme Court will enforce those tariffs.

827a10• 6 months ago

I think the game is a lot bigger than even Trump recognizes, but some individuals in his circle see it. The only other country that matters is China, and the timeline is decades.

foogazi2• 6 months ago

They know they will die rich and soon

pegasus3• 6 months ago

This agreement was reached at almost the same time as Mercosur, the huge EU - South America trade deal. Hopefully the American electorate is paying attention.

usrnm• 6 months ago

Mercosur has been under construction for more than two decades, it has little to do with Trump

hvb23• 6 months ago

It passing does

selectodude• 6 months ago

Mercosur has been on ice for more than two decades because the US wasn’t a huge fan.

Now that we’ve shredded the relationship with both areas, they signed on the dotted line.

mantas8• 6 months ago

Eh. As a citizen of EU member, I’m not happy about Mercosur deal at all. Hopefully fellow euro electorate is paying attention too. But giving how EU bureaucracy is shielded from the feedback loop, I doubt any outcome in national and EP elections could change anything anytime soon.

I feel the same way about some euro leaders pointing to China as possible alternative to US. Fuck no. Sometimes it feels like some people here want to pull off the same shit that is going on in China or US and just wait for a good opportunity. E.g. legendary chat control. But many people pretend it’s all fine and dandy just because.

azan_3• 6 months ago

Why are you not happy about Mercosur? I'm from EU and I think it's a great deal!

petre2• 6 months ago

The US doesn't have Chat Control. They use blanket mandates to ask FAANG for your whereabouts.

SecretDreams4• 6 months ago

Hopefully the American electorate is paying attention.

*Hopefully*

827a10• 6 months ago

Important to remember that the entire Mercosur block has a lower GDP than just California, and around the same GDP as Texas and New York, separately.

_DeadFred_6• 6 months ago

But now it will be much easier for the Mercosur block to finance the infrastructure needed to become agricultural export powerhouses. Death by a thousand cuts for the USA is just as bad a one fatal blow.

_diyar• 6 months ago

Very curious if this will result in US tariffs for car imports from Canada. Also curious how those tariffs would be justified (they‘re always using Terrence Howard math but at least pretending to be analytical). „Canada has to pay because China bad“?

8note• 6 months ago

The US has been signalling an end to free trade in north america, so that would be coming in 2026/2027 regardless.

foogazi2• 6 months ago

Baked in ?

clscott• 6 months ago

Trump could increase the tariffs he already set in April 2025 for new cars manufactured in Canada. Depending on the car model the increases vary between 2500 and 15000 USD.

tzs3• 6 months ago

Trump said, “Well, that's OK, that's what you should be doing. I mean, it's a good thing for him to sign a trade deal. If you can get a deal with China, you should do that, right?”, so he doesn't seem annoyed by it so why would he impose tariffs?

matthewaveryusa• 6 months ago

FAFO* goes both ways. US is in an interesting spot. We have a 1 one-time reset button: Since we’re the reserve currency we can inflate out debt away at the cost of inflation. If and when we do that the world will pivot away, maybe, to another currency. At that point the great American tailwind will be over and we’ll have to be competitive at the global stage — interesting to see what that means, if anything.

As an analogy, imagine you’ve accumulated enough debt and bought yourself a house, a car, and invested in enough productive unseizable assets (very important), like a farm and whatnot, to sustain yourself. what’s the point in servicing your debt? If the only consequence is no one will lend you again, you already have everything so whatever, right?

I can poke a million flaws in this logic, but I _think_ that’s the megasupersmart move the current administration is gunning for. Hell do I know how it will pan out, but I have a hunch. FAFO I guess.

*fuck around, find out (◔_◔)

skybrian2• 6 months ago

Foreigners don't need to own fixed-interest securities. They can also invest in other US assets, such as the stock market. That's quite a good inflation hedge, so long as the US remains a good place to invest.

fakedang6• 6 months ago

Except, apart from tech, there is no good place to invest in the US, especially given the headwinds in the current macro environment. And tech is super overvalued now.

There's a lot of investor capital moving to traditional industries in China, India, Brazil, Korea and Europe, simply because there's better returns to be made with more resilience to American problems.

inciampati• 6 months ago

If you don't service the debt, your assets will be repossessed and sold off.

renewiltord• 6 months ago

To foreign holders of US bonds: Molon Labe.

notahacker• 6 months ago

Any country willing to not be lent to again in future can default on their debts, nothing special there; the actual clever bit is stringing out the ability to accumulate debt at relatively low cost into decades of investment... something they seem to be willing to sacrifice to well and truly own the libs. The sadder reality is that there isn't any megasupersmart strategy, just an ageing buffoon with the foreign policy savvy of a middle schooler who's just heard about the Louisiana purchase and tariffs, and a bunch of grifters hanging on.

The experiment in "is America too big to fail" is probably going to result in a "not quite" answer, but they're really giving it a go.

marcyb5st2• 6 months ago

Yeah.

Spain in the 1500s, the Netherlands in the 1600s and the British empire in the 1800s are good examples of countries considered too big to fail that they eventually crashed and burned and lost their world leader statuses rather fast.

In all three cases over reliance on new debt to fund stuff, disappearance of the middle class, and abusing their dominance (military and/or economic) made them crumble as other countries steered away from dealing with them.

marcyb5st2• 6 months ago

I think the flaw in your thinking is that you assume the US is self-sufficient. If that was the case there would be a very small trade deficit and given the sherade about tariffs early last year, this is not the case (IMHO).

As an external person which is actually benefitting from Trump's shanenigans (I am paid in CHF, which are worth more and more as they are considered probably the safest currency there is) I think the current US Administration wants to thread the needle by devaluating the currency enough that debt becomes manageable and exports benefit from a weak USD while remaining the reserve currency.

However, I also believe that for this plan to work you shouldn't alienate your closest allies as they will go trade elsewhere, impose tariffs on you, or trade in Yuans just to spite you. So you are left with a weak currency that is not as important anymore and basically unchanged exports.

827a10• 6 months ago

There is no secondary reserve currency the world can look to. The world is becoming increasingly hostile and unstable, and no one is in this position, or seems fit to serve this position, in the next twenty years. Its also the case that the US still has a goal of maintaining low inflation, and I think its likely we would pursue austerity on benefits before we would intentionally succumb to higher levels of inflation (as we already have).

Or, you grow the pie. Look to history to learn how empires of the past grew their pies.

Insanity5• 6 months ago

Good. People are sometimes negative or worried about China, with how they spy on people etc. But for most of the western world, the real danger is US and not China. Just think - Canadian, Europeans etc are more likely to go on business travel to the States than China. You can get your phone checked at the border and if you’re not too keen about the US dear leader, that won’t be good for your US admission.

Being negative about Xi might have similar results, but less likely in practice.

NicoJuicy4• 6 months ago

Both are equally bad.

The US is just less trustworthy at this point, at least we know china's goal better.

Note: both under the current administration

SpicyLemonZest• 6 months ago

Do we know China’s goal better? They seemed quite willing to punt on Hong Kong democracy until 2049, as they originally agreed to, until one day they decided that it was time for democracy to be over.

Insanity5• 6 months ago

Both are equally bad in theory. But my point is that (currently) the US would, in practice, negatively impact Canadians and EU more.

lumost3• 6 months ago

The US has had two faces for the last generation. Bush jr. dragged the British into Iraq and generally angered the EU. That the next republican president was overtly hostile to the EU is a continuation of the theme.

It’s hard to build an alliance when one of the partners flips their fundamental goals every 4 years.

oaiey8• 6 months ago

Both are not friend of EU/Canada right now. But China at least never pretended (or we never saw them like that). The US however was a factual savior, then a close ally and a partner for 85 years! That is roughly 60 years longer than China was a relevant factor in the world order. It is the loss of trust / change which tortures the world. Not the amount of current trust.

narrator2• 6 months ago

However, you can't emigrate to China. There are less than 20,000 naturalized citizens in the whole country. You will always be a barbarian, bro.

akmarinov3• 6 months ago

Didn’t they make it so that citizens of 75 countries can’t emigrate to the US just yesterday?

chroma3• 6 months ago

Doesn't that prove too much? For example, North Korea treats their citizens horribly, but since it's not a threat to westerners, would that mean that trade deals with them are acceptable?

It's hard for me to come up with a standard that encourages trade with China but discourages trade with North Korea. I'm not saying that trade with the US is therefore a good idea. There are many reasonable moral standards that would forbid trade with both the US & China.

Insanity5• 6 months ago

NK and China are not at the same level lol - NK is almost an inescapable dictatorship, with routine mistreatment and indoctrination. If that were true, you can claim the current US is 1930s Nazi Germany, with a right wing government using media manipulation and “othering”, in a pseudo dictatorship.

Not to mention the US and China use similar “low level” indoctrination strategies (like swearing allegiance to the flag in schools)

lossolo2• 6 months ago

Around 100 million Chinese people travel abroad every year, and they all return to their country of their own free will. You can't even leave North Korea without special permission, which only certain workers get.

I've been to China, and I'm going again this year, I'm from the EU. The funniest thing is that China's Tier 1 cities are more developed than EU cities and offer a better quality of life.

mitthrowaway22• 6 months ago

Honestly, the reason that North Korea is embargoed probably has less to do with the way they treat their own citizens, and more to do with them constantly threatening to turn South Korea into a "sea of fire" while lobbing ever-longer-range ballistic missiles over Japan.

azan_3• 6 months ago

Being negative about Xi might have similar results, but less likely in practice.

Being negative about Xi has typically much worse in consequence and closer cooperation with China might make it more likely in practice. I'm not saying countries should not cooperate with China, just that your argument is not that great.

Insanity5• 6 months ago

I think you misunderstood my earlier point. I mean for most EU or Canadian citizens, the odds of being negative about Xi having actual impact are near 0 (not many travel to China), whilst many do travel to the US.. and rely on US tech.

827a10• 6 months ago

You're right, but only half-way to the most realistic conclusion. Canada is stuck between a rock and a hard place. The US is increasingly hostile, because the US wants control over the warming arctic naval routes and higher border security. Greenland is just a softer target for now. However, turning away from the US (~85% of Canadian trade) to China (~8%) weakens Canada and gives political cover for the US to take further hostile action.

There's a game being played that, once you see it, it becomes clear that some world leaders are thinking about 2035, and other world leaders are still in 2015. I don't like it, and I genuinely feel for Canadians; they're a small, inconveniently positioned pawn that is getting caught up in something so much bigger than their country and leadership has the resources to deal with.

_DeadFred_6• 6 months ago

I see we've moved from the 'he's just meme'ing, he/we know it's stupid, it's not real' to 'here's why this is 4d chess and actually good'.

Edit: Since I'm throttled... Trump has been talking about Greenland since 2019, before he was surrounded with the current crop. Good try at keeping the 4D chess con going though.

throwaway5757• 6 months ago

Trump is bad, but Xi really is only worse.

martythemaniak• 6 months ago

Mark Carney wrote a buzzwordy, but still informative article on his approach: https://www.economist.com/the-world-ahead/2025/11/12/the-wor...

TLDR: Developed countries will come together to cooperate on matters they agree without the US, or US-dominated forums like the UN. Whether it's a group to support Ukraine, tackle climate change, increase trade etc it'll be faster and looser. We will indeed trade a lot more with China and allow chinese EVs, but there's also lots of pressure to bring down domestic trade barriers, automatically recognize European-approved products etc. Over time this will help us decouple from the US.

I'm looking forward to a less US-reliant Canada. We used to have a more vibrant and distinctive culture in the 80s, 90s so it's nice to see people travel less to the US, consume fewer US products. Like the pandemic, it is a painful external event you have to deal with, but what else are you gonna do other than deal with it head on.

1over1377• 6 months ago

https://archive.ph/Tc0h7

cudgy14• 6 months ago

By angering a super power nation run by a megalomaniac adjacent to your country?

cmxch8• 6 months ago

That’s the quickest route to the 51st state of Alberta, where the rest become protectorates.

maxglute• 6 months ago

Nature is healing (mild /s), not that there isn't high risk of pivot backfiring for CAN. Regardless people forget Canada under the British and post independence was fundamentally an anti-American project until WW1. Before that, it took multiple wars and (failed) US annexation effort before CAN/US realized jawjaw was better than warwar, really when Canada realized you can't be FOB for US adversaries, then British, and even that coexistence was under decadesof mutual suspicion. Of course the chance of PRC/CAN defense cooperation is nil, US will never allow that considering all the NORAD infra, but way things are going, even generic trade with PRC (something US already does - agriculture, energy, technology) is probably going to put another 51st state annexation attempt back on the menu.

Torwald• 6 months ago

So Canada found out it doesn't have any leverage over China in this so-called trade war, that is going on between North America and China?

That is at least the logical conclusion based on the information the linked-to article provides.

What I am asking myself now is, why did Canada join the US in the 2024 tariffs enactment the article is talking about in the first place? What was their motivation?

The US president always said, that he deemed the existing contracts between China and the US as "unfair" for America, hence the tariffs and trade war. That is his official explanation at least. But why would Canada join that? That's what I want to know.

Any takers?

tadfisher• 6 months ago

Their motivation was protectionism, because Canada hosts assembly plants and a broad parts manufacturing base. Same as the US. This regards the targeted EV tariffs from 2024 which is the only such tariff action mentioned in the article.

llm_nerd• 6 months ago

So Canada found out it doesn't have any leverage over China in this so-called trade war

That's an astonishingly weird take-away. FWIW, Canada by almost any analysis "won" this trade negotiation. China was very eager to thaw relations. Every Chinese newspaper ran a front page of Carney visiting China. They all know this is yet another brick in the collapse of the American empire.

Maybe if you just threaten military conquest more you'll reclaim something much better people built decades ago? Now the Joe Rogan generation foolishly eat up the most profoundly stupid nonsense and repeat it like clucking chickens.

why did Canada join the US in the 2024 tariffs enactment the article is talking about in the first place? What was their motivation?

Because we foolishly engaged with a tightly integrated economy with the sort of country that casual floats conquering friendly democracies to loot their resources, and that repeatedly elects vile, unbelievably stupid criminal pedophiles? See, "America's" automakers are actually US/Mexico/Canada automakers, so we worked with the US to defend them. Then Trump decided, in his incredibly, profoundly shortsighted foolishness (being unchecked by anyone) that he would start a trade war with neighbours.

I think the most astonishing part was seeing how willing the incredibly poorly educated American public bought the silly fentanyl lie, all so that clown could claim national security grounds. This cult of personality -- one of the most vile, unbecoming liars in human history, and basically the personification of the deadly sins -- somehow convinces millions of the most outrageously stupid thing. It's astonishing, and historians must study this to prevent it in the future. Idiocracy is not a goal.

wvenable• 6 months ago

The Canada-US Auto Pact of 1965 effectively integrated automobile manufacturing between the two countries. This pact removed the previous tariffs and added certain guarantees. This effectively created one protected automobile market between the countries.

This is, of course, exactly why Canada joined the US in 2024 tariffs against China. We had all one market to protect.

Canada found out it doesn't have any leverage over China in this so-called trade war,

For my perspective, this seems hugely beneficial to Canada in the short-term. It might even be beneficial to Canada in the long-term if the US permanently destroys the ability to build automobiles for the unified North American market in Canada.

1over1377• 6 months ago

...why did Canada join the US in the 2024 tariffs...

In addition to the other good answers: to do a favour for a (previous) friend and ally.

UI_at_80x24• 6 months ago

Canada should re-enact the AutoPact [0] (tldr: I don't see this in the wiki article, but the real benefit was; for every 3 cars sold in Canada, 1 had to be 'made' in Canada). This was ruled as unfair under NAFTA and thus terminated. It also had the effect of incredible auto-industry cutbacks.

BUT, with a new contender (China); we could re-enact it, rebuild our diminished blue-collar manufacturing base; and hasten the rollout of EV vehicles. Which is the real objective here.

IMHO, that would be a solid win for everybody.

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada%E2%80%93United_States_A...

giarc3• 6 months ago

But are Chinese EVs attractive to consumers if they are built in Canada with union wages? At that point people will just keep buying Toyotas/Hondas that are also built in Canada.

oaiey8• 6 months ago

Or you just setup lower price limits for cars like Europe did with China. So that state support is not affecting the market. Because guess what: producing a car in far far away land and then ship it around the world and pay some 10% tariff is also not that cheap.

tzs3• 6 months ago

I'd expect quite a few consumers would still want them. Canada has cheap electricity and expensive gasoline. For those who don't live in some part of Canada so cold that the efficiency of an EV drops massively due to heating an EV can save quite a bit on energy costs.

Around 65-75% of Canadians live in parts of Canada that have winter temperatures similar to those of Norway's major cities and EVs perform fine in Norway so will probably also be fine in Canada.

The US and Japanese and Korean car companies are putting most of their EV effort, at least in the US and Canada, into the more expensive models. They don't have much that is the EV equivalent of a Toyota Corolla or a Honda Civic for non-SUVs, or the equivalent of a RAV4 or CR-V for EVs.

Honda for example only has the Prologue, which is built on top of GM's Equinox EV platform and starts at about $15k more than an Equinox EV.

The Chinese EV companies seem more willing to address that segment. Even if they have to pay union wages to build them there will be demand because it will still be cheaper than the EVs that are aimed at a more upscale market the other companies are mostly making.

waveforms• 6 months ago

The time to negotiate that would have been before this announcement. Carney has doomed Canada's auto industry because he is negotiating with his emotions.

icegreentea2• 6 months ago

The deal allows up to 70,000 cars a year by 2030 to be imported at the reduced tariff. Canadians buy 1.5-2 million cars per year, and roughly a quarter million EVs per year.

If this deal as reported somehow manages to doom the Canadian auto industry, then our auto industry was probably somehow doomed anyways.

yibg• 6 months ago

I don’t see how. Chinese manufacturers aren’t going to setup multi billion dollar plants without some market presence, that comes after.

Letting in some small amount of Chinese EVs for so they can test the waters seems sensible all around. If they are popular then negotiate on local manufacturing to allow a larger market share.

metalman• 6 months ago

the current deal is for 45000 cars, which they think will be all sold in 90 days or less, then there is mention of BYD building a plant in Canada, with whatever balance of imports and domestic production gets agreed on, so there is room and time for something like Autopact with China

Nova Scotia here, off grid, realy want to build a new bigger solar pv set up with sodium batteries, and design for whole house, shop, and car charging. Time for that is looking like now!

daft_pink• 6 months ago

Good luck with that

theptip2• 6 months ago

This is a sound tactical move to provide a hedge against future US economic threats.

Strategically, I do think you want to be coming up with a plan to shield core industries like auto, shipping, energy, and some parts of manufacturing (eg “factories for factories” rather than “factories for consumer goods”) from dumping / state subsidies.

It might be OK to let the PRC subsidize your solar cells, assuming you can build wind instead if they try to squeeze you. It’s probably not wise to depend on PRC for your batteries, drones, and cars, where these are key to strategic autonomy and you don’t have an alternative.

ActionHank• 6 months ago

The world already relies on them for drones and batteries, often cars.

theptip2• 6 months ago

Yes, of course, that is what I’m saying you need to change.

PlanksVariable• 6 months ago

The percentage of Canadians of Asian descent shifted from 1.4% to 23% in the past fifty years. While Trump’s policies are a factor here, there’s a demographic factor as well. Many Canadians, especially younger Canadians, have stronger cultural and familial ties to Asia than America or Europe, and this trend will continue to play out in the years ahead.

mitthrowaway22• 6 months ago

This is true, but many of those Asians moved to Canada specifically to get away from the CCP. Others of course have a more favourable view. There are various diasporas, and they don't all see things the same way.

hxorr• 6 months ago

Yes, and not all Asians are chinese

amunozo• 6 months ago

What is considered Asian in Canada? Are Indians for example also included, or just East Asians?

engineer_22• 6 months ago

Canada total trade with USA in 2024: $917 billion

Canada total trade with China in 2024: $119 billion

baka367• 6 months ago

total trade right now.

This move is obviously an attempt to decouple themselves from the States

throwpoaster• 6 months ago

Canadian reporting in. The expanded police cooperation with the CCP is not playing well here.

Plus, this is a canola-for-cars deal. 90+% of our trade is structurally American, forever.

IMO we did this deal to front run the renegotiation of USMCA this years. However, we are only 5% of America’s trade, and last I heard Trump had already walked from the table (and perhaps we signed with China because of this).

The two sides of the debate between our major parties are whether we should sell canola or LNG to China while we wait for America to come back to the table.

fencepost• 6 months ago

There's certainly no reason for Canada to consider significant EV imports from the US - I wouldn't be surprised if Tesla was tainted based on Musk's association with Trump and there aren't really other major US EV producers. For international manufacturers it probably makes more sense to have direct trade agreements with Canada vs possible significant tariffs in response to whatever Cheetolini decides to do on any given day.

Ninjarat• 6 months ago

Canada better pay attention to the one factor they probably already know about but they're just discounting. They live right next door to the United States of America. China's halfway around the world. They need to pay attention to that fact.

willhslade• 6 months ago

We're wildly aware. Currently 80+% of our trade is with the good old USA. We're basically an economic colony. But when the ambassador to Canada and Trump himself note that they don't need Canada (both statements happened in the last 2 weeks) we don't really have a choice but to attempt to diversify. We don't want to do it, we were reasonably happy with the existing arrangement, but it's not up to us to decide what the US does. It's up to us to decide what we do.

cmxch8• 6 months ago

China won’t be able to save them, but they might just get more Hongkouver properties out of the deal.

Canada's deal with China signals it is serious about shift from US

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