Meeting A Troll

http://www.traynorseye.com/2012/09/meeting-troll.html

by Liu • 14 years ago

673 201 14 years ago

smoyer3• 14 years ago

Wow ... I'd like to shake your hand because I think you handled your friend's son with an amazing amount of grace. It's horrible that you had to be tormented like that, but at 17 he may have learned how to be human. In my experience, not many of us understood empathy at that age.

Let me know when you're in the U.S. and perhaps I can buy you a dinner.

skeletonjelly2• 14 years ago

Agreed. Always refreshing to see somebody putting in hard work to make this world a better place rather than taking the easier road (whatever that would have been).

ChuckMcM• 14 years ago

That is a pretty compelling story. I'm not sure I could let it go without a bit more narrative around the 'game thing.' It sounds too much like 'making your bones' in a street gang.

biot• 14 years ago

When I read that, I thought it was a reference to the movie The Game: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119174/

blauwbilgorgel• 14 years ago

  About how he'd become engrossed in conspiracy sites.

Anti-semitism is rife on conspiracy sites. I just assumed 'the game' thing was started on one such conspiracy site. Paranoia, hatred and naivety can be breeding grounds for these attacks.

I view it less as a street gang game, and more of a game of 'hunt the Illuminati'. Doesn't make it any less despicable. If anything these conspiracy sites (and its posters) carry part of the blame for incitement.

mwhooker• 14 years ago

compelling story, but I'd like to know how he translated an ip address in to a street address.

sliverstorm• 14 years ago

Well, there's a few possibilities. For example, if the ip address was associated with a DN, you could do a reverse-lookup and then do a whois.

loboman2• 14 years ago

Also he might know the friend's ip if the friend sent him an email.

adrianpike• 14 years ago

I'm also curious about this.

One option would be to lure the troll to a site & pull down the location info from his browser - I'm not sure how readily the troll would authorize that, but maybe with some clever social engineering it could be done. His father did mention he was on his mobile a ton, so it's possible he got pretty accurate data, instead of just his local ISP. (Related - I'm on Clear right now, and apparently I'm in Portland. I'm actually up near Canada.)

skunkworks• 14 years ago

That was my first thought too. My guess would be a shortened URL that redirected to a private server, which then redirected to some Facebook contact form. Facebook message times could then be roughly correlated with IPs harvested from logs from the private server.

smoyer3• 14 years ago

Or maybe Chloe tried to slip through the subnet while Miles traced his physical location by looking at the binary (http://blog.sfgate.com/tgoodman/2006/04/25/this-doesnt-make-...). That last season of 24 made me realize how little I knew about networking.

columbo• 14 years ago

Here's a possibility: On his blog he has a field to enter in your email address to subscribe to posts. If he's recording IP addresses there's a good chance his friend (not the son) would have put in his email to follow. Once he got the IP address of his Troll he could have just looked in his registration table on an off chance there was a match.

rednum• 14 years ago

Perhaps it was something like:

  1. OP finds an IP in [insert-not-so-large-irish-city-name-here].
  2. OP remebers having a friend in [not-so-large-irish-city],
     somehow obtains his IP (which is not a hard thing).
  3. Bingo, adresses match!
  4. OP is confused, but then remembers that his friend has 
     teenage soon, so he calls the friend to ask about the kid.

In other words, if it were some random troll, he wouldn't be able to do this.

uiri• 14 years ago

It could have been something as simple as politely asking the ISP or the police. Given some of the circumstances which transpired and how difficult it may or may not be to get the ISP to give you the street address, I wouldn't be surprised if they went, or at least tried, that route.

Keep in mind he translated three ip addresses into street addresses and two of them turned out to be public hotspots.

skeletonjelly2• 14 years ago

I doubt asking kindly would yield personal information. This kind of social engineering can be used for bad as well and I'd doubt they'd leave the justice and investigative powers in the hands of a citizen.

giardini3• 14 years ago

Find the ISP and ask for the user's information, either formally (with police assistance) or informally (pay someone for the info).

DanBC3• 14 years ago

> I responded: "I'm not criminalizing a 17 year old kid and ruining his future.

I really hope restorative justice works. Well done for doing something that must have been incredibly tough.

autophil• 14 years ago

I'm very sorry you went through that. I actually couldn't finish reading it - too unsettling. I hope you and yours are okay and this is behind you.

dkokelley• 14 years ago

If it helps, it has a restorative ending. I would recommend trying to get trough it knowing how it ends.

kefs• 14 years ago

finish it

revnja• 14 years ago

I hope that The Troll learned something from this experience. It is truly interesting to me what kind of mental processes drive this kind of behavior.

ANTSANTS• 14 years ago

Let's hope it wasn't "use a proxy."

dkarl4• 14 years ago

Or "cry when you get caught."

drhayes9• 14 years ago

My wife and I just had a baby and it has made me realize that I would burn the world to cinders in defense of my family. I have no idea how this guy reached through the fire and shook this kid's hand. Wow.

smoyer3• 14 years ago

It's an amazing feeling isn't it! I have four kids with two now in college and I have a bit of advice. Tuck the memory of how instinctually protective you're feeling away so that you remember it when they're teenagers and have managed to inspire the opposite feelings in you.

SoftwareMaven6• 14 years ago

It is an amazing experience to learn that there is somebody who is more important to you than you, isn't it? Whatever combination of biology, psychology and sociology that brings that about, it is something to experience!

prawn2• 14 years ago

I've got a nine-week old. Loved your comment and I'm passing it on to my wife. So true.

giardini3• 14 years ago

"Gort, Klaatu barada nikto. Klaatu barada nikto."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaatu_barada_nikto

citricsquid2• 14 years ago

that is not "trolling", that's (pretty bad) harassment. I get the feeling this is a story written to prove a point. Nobody would refer to this as "trolling".

zxcdw3• 14 years ago

How would you define trolling and a troll? I'm sincerely asking since it is my understanding that these days harassment over the internet is often cited as trolling, as in for example "We trolled Jane by spamming her inbox full of animal abuse and violence lol".

I work part-time at a school with kids ranging from 7 to 16, and of what I've tried to inquire them about the subject(I'm 22 myself, so it's quite easy to go into the subject by mentioning some local websites and memes, kids open up voluntarily very well), it's exactly the online harassing and bullying which is considered(perhaps a form of) trolling. These are exactly the imageboard kids who find it cool to "piss people off". Why? "I dont know. For the lulz". It's like a hobby for some.

I personally find this stuff disgusting and directly relate it to bullying in school. Just because it happens online is not any more tolerable. Turns out many people disagree.

sukuriant2• 14 years ago

Perhaps it's the intensity that's the real issue. I "troll" my friends with great frequency. Screw with them, tease them, hold clearly contrary positions just to get them riled up, but it's all in fun and stops before their feelings honestly get hurt (or if they are, I apologize). That's clearly a different level than the other sorts of trolling that I've seen. ... admittedly, people that are "from the internet" are familiar with trolling and know when they're being trolled. They can take the bait and play along, or stop it in its tracks by not feeding the troll the frustration he desires. People that aren't "from the internet", or perhaps aren't from the self-mocking parts of the internet haven't developed the thick skin (why should they?) required to deal with trolls.

... and I suppose some people just enjoy going after the people that aren't thick skinned. That's ... while fun to some, not really a civil thing to do. I suppose there's some level of initiation into the "Internet" that includes being trolled -- and trolling back, or growing some skin, etc. This wasn't one of those cases, from what I gathered (I didn't finish the article, as the very beginning it started looking clearly like harassment instead of the level of trolling I'm familiar with).

I started this response with a point, but I've lost it. Either way, there is clearly a level of taking it too far.

citricsquid2• 14 years ago

Trolling is short term, it's fucking with someone for the sake of fucking with someone, anyone. If you attack one person over multiple years that becomes more than trolling, it becomes personal. Trolling is not personal. As you say, it's "for the lulz", it's to get a reaction, any reaction. If someone wants a reaction they don't care who from.

I've never met anyone that would call years of harassment that extended into real life "trolling". That's personal and it's a serious problem. I run a large forum (I'd guess some of the kids you mention use it) and I've had all manner of insults and threats, all of which are trolling, they're from people that want to annoy me or upset me but only because they see me as a target at that moment. If someone were to come to my house and leave things in my postbox, or mail me stuff, or follow me around the internet for years that would be harassment.

I just asked a bunch of my staff members (people that deal with this sort of thing every day) and everyone considers what the OP went through harassment, it's not in anyway considered trolling.

dkarl4• 14 years ago

Trolling means posting something insincere to elicit a response. The point of trolling is to fool the target into investing time and emotion into responding seriously. Insincerity is the defining aspect of trolling, and seeing the victim's response is how the troll gets his kicks. What the asshole kid in this story was definitely stalking, but it wasn't trolling unless he posed as an antisemitic hate-filled stalker for the malicious fun of watching the victim react. Unlikely. Honestly, I think the guy is being way too easy on the kid by calling him a troll. The kid is a stalker. The police should have been called, because he's likely to do it again.

GrumpySimon• 14 years ago

Yes, but calling it all "trolling" lumps it together. In the replies to your comment you can see people equating trolling to everything from slight teasing to serious harassment.

The problem with calling it all "trolling" is that it normalizes the seriously nasty things (e.g. threatening to kill someone's wife) by analogy to the less serious things ("I tease my friends all the time").

At some point, these are very different things. And they need to be treated very differently. Calling them different things (e.g. "harassment" or "hate speech" vs "trolling") helps set up that mental boundary in peoples' minds and helps them demarcate what's right and wrong.

wisty• 14 years ago

The original meaning of "trolling" comes from the fishing technique. It's not targeted, it's just provocation. Trolls might follow up, and target the people who took the bait (getting them more riled up, misinterpreting them, claiming they misinterpreted your point, accusing them of trolling), but they don't tend to hold a grudge. It's just a (juvenile) joke.

Harassment isn't trolling. It's goal is not provoking anyone who is un-savvy enough to take the bait, it's goal is to upset a specific person. It's harassment.

You're right that trolling means whatever people want it to (words mean whatever you think they do), but if you expand the definition "trolling" to include harassment, then it's no longer fair to say it's "just" trolling; under the assumption that "trolling" isn't a bad thing.

ZoFreX• 14 years ago

Trolling, as I first encountered the term (on 4chan, many years ago, back when "trolling was a art") was nothing new. My dad's generation calls it "fishing", and engages in it offline by parroting Daily Mail-esque views in the pub because they know I will "bite".

These days it seems to be a cover-word for the sickest, most malicious bullying, and also the most yawn-inducing unimaginative pranks... basically, any behaviour that could possibly be frowned upon by anyone is defended after the fact with "no, I was trolling" (a valid defence when you're espousing views of the far right with no sincerity... a less valid defence when you actually have just done something terrible)

knieveltech• 14 years ago

I am truly amazing by this post. What an incredible human being the OP is. If faced with a similar situation I'm quite certain I lack to moral fiber to conduct myself with that level of class. Odds are excellent I would have pasted that kids guts all over the street.

unreal373• 14 years ago

Having someone arrested is not "lack of moral fiber". It may be the opposite - the courage to bring a criminal to justice, testify against them, potentially lose his friendship... What the 17-year old did was vicious and clearly criminal.

jessedhillon2• 14 years ago

Courage, as a word, stems from cor -- one's heart and innermost feelings, and so courageousness is the resolve to express one's heart.

Therefore, it is literally more courageous to confront an attacker directly and to express one's feelings honestly, than it is to run to the authorities, even when one is entitled to do so. It's more courageous to confront someone face-to-face, tell him how you were hurt by what they did, and communicate that you still care about him and want to be involved with his correction.

To say that "it may be the opposite..." i.e. it may be cowardly to directly confront someone who hurt and frightened you, is just bizarre and I suspect reactionary tough-guy talk. In what world would it be cowardly to confront and attacker and show both your vulnerability and your determination to work with him, but courageous (in any sense of the word) to send the police over to his house to pick him up?

BklynJay• 14 years ago

It's disturbing how terrifying and malicious this suburban 17-year old kid could be.

nhashem• 14 years ago

For what it's worth, if you're the target of especially terrifying harassment like this, it's important to keep two things in mind: the more targeted the harassment is, the easier it is to identify the harasser, and the more likely it is that there's some sort of personal connection.

If you're receiving stuff in the mail (like the lunchbox with ashes) or stuff literally just dropped on your doorstep (the dead flowers), it's extremely unlikely that someone on the internet you have absolutely zero connection with just randomly picked you to ruin your life that badly just for some lulz.

I'm glad the OP was able to take the steps he needed to identify his harasser, which I'm sure was a lot more empowering than living in fear and checking his door locks every night.

DanHulton• 14 years ago

Of course, the flip side of this are all the terrible stories that keep flooding out of 4chan, where 'random' people HAVE been targetted.

Granted, they've usually done SOMETHING to piss off the hivemind, usually something involving posting a picture with something that ends up being identifiable (gps co-ords, school name on something in the background, etc.).

But even in those cases, though you may know where the attack is coming from, there's usually not much to help you figure out exactly who is behind it. At least in the news stories etc. that I've read, it's been a collection of bored 4chan denizens with not much else to connect them.

jessedhillon2• 14 years ago

A security professional once recommended Gavin de Becker's "The Gift of Fear" [1] to me as a source of excellent information to always have in mind.

One of de Becker's insight is exactly what you say here -- that most potential attackers are motivated by a personal connection, and that animus is also what makes it possible to identify and uncover them. He also has extensive thoughts about identifying if/when the harassment will cross over into physical attacks. I would recommend anyone read it, especially if you have loved ones who have lived in fear of stalkers.

[1] http://www.amazon.com/Other-Survival-Signals-Protect-Violenc...

pimentel• 14 years ago

That seems interesting. Will the book make me more or less obsessed with walking-on-the-street safety?

baddox• 14 years ago

> He wanted to call the authorities there and then and turn him in. But I said no.

That's an impressive show of self control, but I wonder if his next victims will have preferred that you did contact the authorities. Presumably, at age 17 this guy won't be living with his parents for much longer.

SoftwareMaven6• 14 years ago

I really hope the OP didn't just leave it with "get him counseling" and then walk away. I hope he required follow-up that the counseling was happening and progress was being made.

In fact, if I was in that situation, I think I would want to be given the ability to talk to the counselor about the progress (or lack thereof) being made. Even if I knew he was going to counseling, I don't think I would be comfortable just washing my hands beyond that, for exactly the reason you point out.

ignignokt• 14 years ago

Isn't that sort of information confidential between the counsellor and the patient? Even if it's not legally protected I don't think many counsellors would be happy telling you that sort of thing

voldemort122• 14 years ago

> That's an impressive show of self control,

It would be, if this had happened. Which I sincerely doubt.

I do not doubt that OP went through some real awful stuff at the behest of his troll, or that he even met or confronted his troll, but this story is just too finely crafted to be a true reflection of real life. I could be wrong, but, honestly, I doubt it.

magobarca• 14 years ago

I have to ask. Why was this young man given the opportunity to escape the law despite committing a hate crime. He threatened murder and rape. Would he have been afforded the privilege of a hand shake rather than hand cuffs if he was... say a member of a outgroup, say for example, an Arab?

Karunamon• 14 years ago

Because the police were never involved directly. "He" was still legally a child, for one. For two, the author was unbelievably gracious enough to not take him straight to the cops.

A happy ending all around, really. Hopefully the teen idiot will have something good come of his counselling and the world will be a slightly better place.

derleth2• 14 years ago

> Hopefully the teen idiot will have something good come of his counselling and the world will be a slightly better place.

Sociopaths benefit from counseling in that they become better able to fool counselors. We can only hope whoever he goes to realizes this.

gnarbarian2• 14 years ago

Showing the kid who the bigger man is by forgiving him has a diffusing effect on the situation. It shows compassion and empathy for him, (something the kid initially did not have for the OP). If the kid could produce so much hate out of thin air imagine how angry and hateful he could be if he blamed OP for incarcerating him. (as ass backward that logic is)

daeken• 14 years ago

Agreed entirely. This sort of thing can turn into a vicious cycle in an instant; by forgiving him, the OP has almost certainly stopped that in its tracks.

However, I can't help but have concerns about the kid's future -- this sort of behavior over a long period screams mental illness -- and sincerely hope that counseling helps.

sukuriant2• 14 years ago

I see where you're going with this, and let's take this another way.

Let's say that "it should." and effort to make it that way in our own, personal lives :)

gnarbarian2• 14 years ago

I forgot to add, A white Irish kid likely is in the 'outgroup' from the perspective of a middle aged Jewish man. The converse was the entire premise of the harassment.

Tichy11• 14 years ago

I suppose the key aspect here was the parents actually being friends with the victim, not the ethnicity of the stalker.

AgathaTheWitch• 14 years ago

I would have prosecuted the little shit.

adrianwaj2• 14 years ago

Deliberate and targeted anti-semitism, stalking, death threats that moved offline from a 17 year old who says "thanks for giving me a break dude" and parents who don't want to go to the police themselves? All Leo wants to do is write about it.. I would've either prosecuted or put his name and photo (and all the threats and screenshots he sent) on my blog for 10 years.. that could've been the choice for the parents.

Tichy11• 14 years ago

This story is all about empathy...

tylermenezes• 14 years ago

I'm honestly astonished at how little Twitter seems to care about abuse and spam. I actually wrote an article about this last night (https://tyler.menez.es/articles/twitters-empathy-problem.htm...), when - after going through blog posts - I realized the spam problem there hadn't gotten any better since I first wrote about it in 2007!

forensic• 14 years ago

Seems like a hard problem to solve.

unreal373• 14 years ago

Interesting. I don't think I would have done the same, and even with time to think long and hard about it, I still would have gone after him with all my might. I don't think letting him off with just a warning is in any sense "justice" nor in the end was the smart choice.

There's something psychotic about harassing someone you know for YEARS, anonymously, in such a vicious way as he did. It's just cruelty on a level akin to torturing dogs for fun. "It was kind of a game" is hardly an excuse. "I will kill you, I will rape your wife, I will do <unspeakable things> to your wife's dead body..." Sending ashes. Putting dead flowers on the door step. Causing the man to be paranoid in his own house. Causing him to cry over the safety of his family. This is beyond harassment, and lasted daily/weekly over a period of years.

I almost don't believe this is real. How could a psychotic 17-year old be let off with a handshake and a look in the eye? He's going to kill someone someday. I'm stunned.

jlgreco• 14 years ago

Yeah, I think I would be hard pressed to not report this kid to the cops if only so that I never had to regret not making the police aware of him.

SoftwareMaven6• 14 years ago

I can't imagine that, as part of the deal, updates proving that counseling is happening aren't a part of the story. I agree with you that I wouldn't let it go without having some knowledge that he is getting the help he obviously needs.

I wouldn't want to ruin a 17-year-old's life, either, but I wouldn't hesitate for a moment if I felt my family was in any danger. We don't know the relationship between the OP and his friend that might mitigate the "any danger" part.

On the other hand, kids' lives are ruined in the US (and possibly other countries; I don't have enough experience to know) on a regular basis because we want to have "justice" at all costs. Justice is important, but so is mercy. Mercy (NOT rolling over!) is, ultimately, what will progress society.

zainny3• 14 years ago

If a person takes such a personal, aggressive, and malicious position towards you and your family, by reporting them to the proper authorities you haven't "ruined" their life. You shouldn't feel guilty bringing the perpetrator of a serious crime to justice.

ripperdoc• 14 years ago

Well, we don't know enough about this case to really judge it. But my key take away is NOT that this kid is a future murderer, but rather the opposite, that internet harassment is something very different than real harassment, something normal people can get into, somewhere where it's too easy to disconnect emotionally from the target and the suffering of the target. The kid may not have been able to visualize the suffering that he caused, getting de-sensitized to the words and images used in the harassment (you don't need to stay long in 4chan for that to happen). Of course, it doesn't make it more ok, it just means we shouldn't use the same ruler to measure internet harassment as real harassment.

Arhag• 14 years ago

How do you reckon what's described in this article doesn't count as “real” harassment? Just because the harassment is done anonymously online doesn't mean it's any easier to deal with, perhaps even the opposite. Not to mention the dead flowers and the other things which happened outside the web.

In the end I believe the internet just provides an easier way of stalking people than through the traditional means, but the victims are affected just as badly, so I don't think you shouldn't take internet harassment any more lightly.

Kelliot• 14 years ago

Pains me to see this kinda stuff go on...

Troll doesn't quite cover it in my eye, its pure criminalized harassment.

ary3• 14 years ago

It's difficult to read this and not think that a psychopath was let off the hook because he was young. Outing and labeling these kinds of people is important to curbing the amount of future damage they can do.

There is bullying, there is harassment, and then there is what the OP experienced. No reasonable, rational individual who is just "acting out" in adolescence takes it to these levels. As much as I feel for the OP he should have taken legal action and had the youth examined by a credible mental health professional if only as a favor to others.

yelsgib9• 14 years ago

What is the difference between a "reasonable, rational" individual and an "unreasonable, irrational" individual?

What is the basis of your faith in "credible mental health professionals?"

lwhi2• 14 years ago

> What is the difference between a "reasonable, rational" individual and an "unreasonable, irrational" individual?

The degree to which the individual can co-exist with other members of society.

seanmcdirmid• 14 years ago

The kid in this case needed help. Maybe he'll turn out as a bad adult, but its not too late for this behavior to be corrected so he can lead a normal life. Now, if you think the best way to do that is through the legal system, I'm not sure, especially if the legal system is more interested in punishing vs. reforming. The author did the right thing, I think.

wamatt• 14 years ago

As much as I loathe being the guy defending trolls, the level of judgement expressed in this thread is a bit troubling.

Labeling this kid a 'pyschopath' might feel nice, but it's rather inaccurate. [1]. Specifically when he saw the damage he'd caused, a very human emotional response of remorse and regret kicked in. We have no reason to believe it's fake, especially given we weren't the one's there, and the author believed it to be genuine.

That said, I found this to be a really touching story, and am amazed at the kindness and wisdom of the victim.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy

ary3• 14 years ago

First, I'm well aware of the definition of psychopathy. Second, psychopathy is not a binary condition. An individual can be on a spectrum of severity, or (as has been noted by people researching the condition) psychopaths can and do mimic the responses to emotion that they see in others but do not feel themselves. Perhaps he is or perhaps he isn't, but without additional action of the part of the OP and the kid's parents there is no way he will be properly diagnosed until something similar, but more severe, might happen.

So, yes, we are making judgements in this thread, but not everyone here is being "judgmental." Making a considered decision about available evidence is a reasonable act. The repercussions of this young man's actions should not have been watered down because of his age, and especially not in light of the toll it exacted on his victim. Others might be calling for extreme punishment, but I am calling for appropriate response.

yread2• 14 years ago

You can read more about the value of tears of a psychopath here

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/assessment/2...

Harris married his deceitfulness with a total lack of remorse or empathy—another distinctive quality of the psychopath. Fuselier was finally convinced of his diagnosis when he read Harris' response to being punished after being caught breaking into a van. Klebold and Harris had avoided prosecution for the robbery by participating in a "diversion program" that involved counseling and community service. Both killers feigned regret to obtain an early release, but Harris had relished the opportunity to perform. He wrote an ingratiating letter to his victim offering empathy, rather than just apologies. Fuselier remembers that it was packed with statements like Jeez, I understand now how you feel and I understand what this did to you.

"But he wrote that strictly for effect," Fuselier said. "That was complete manipulation. At almost the exact same time, he wrote down his real feelings in his journal: 'Isn't America supposed to be the land of the free? How come, if I'm free, I can't deprive a stupid f---ing dumbshit from his possessions if he leaves them sitting in the front seat of his f---ing van out in plain sight and in the middle of f---ing nowhere on a Frif---ingday night. NATURAL SELECTION. F---er should be shot.' "

debacle• 14 years ago

It's very easy to fake a very human emotional response, especially when those around you are sympathetic (e.g your parents).

enneff• 14 years ago

What would you recommend for this kid, apart from counseling?

ary3• 14 years ago

I'll speak for myself, as if I had a child that acted in this way.

The first, and most important response would be to establish why. With actions like this being carried out in and from my own home I would have to immediately reassess my level of involvement with my child and whether or not I was culpable via omission. Very soon thereafter I would seek out the advice of people directly involved with the study and treatment of psychopathy and sociopathy and have my child assessed. From there it would be up to the outcome of that assessment.

Perhaps that's not the kind of clear cut answer you were (possibly) looking for, but I think it comes down to whether or not it was an innate or developed problem.

kvnn2• 14 years ago

I would remove him from the environment that fostered the behavior. I'm surprised that the OP, the kid's parents, and no one else (I've seen) in this thread has mentioned this.

Tichy11• 14 years ago

Maybe you underestimate how charged today's atmosphere is. You get confronted with things like this every day - violence in the media, news, school yard, newspapers, books, video games. Peer pressure and what not. Kids beating each other up, filming it and putting it on YouTube.

I don't know if that kid is a psychopath but I can imagine lots of other reasons for how he got caught up in that "game".

Also I am not even sure about the psychopath verdict - I get that differences in the brain have been found (ie underdeveloped regions responsible for empathy). But that doesn't imply that it is genetic/not curable. I've read the same brain structures have been found in abused children, for example. And the famous London cab drivers with their enlarged brain regions for geo-spatial-whatever-things. They certainly were not born to be cab drivers - so if their behavior can make brain regions grow, why shouldn't it be possible to learn more empathy?

ErrantX• 14 years ago

I think the OP opted for the latter ("credible mental health professional") when demanding counselling, but left off the former ("legal action").

I tend to agree with him, and I think in a way you are too... the important issue might not be in making him pay for his harassment, but understanding how and why he did those things (and then treating him if needed).

Criminalising him adds.. what?

Quarrelsome2• 14 years ago

Ummmm... my brother was a terrorist when he was 17. He used to blow up stuff on the posh estate and severely vandalise properties striking legitimate fear into the hearts of those that owned them (people moved their kids away etc).

I myself was charged for criminal damage, firearms and threatening behaviour when I was 15 years old.

When you have difficulties in both school and personal life you end up doing crazy things at these ages because you are so divorced from reality. You don't know responsibility because you don't have any you don't even understand how money _really_ works so you don't appreciate the value of other people's things. All you care about is your own pain and try to find an outlet for it. You're also a bit self-centred so you never appreciate the things others or your parents really do for you.

I actually think its relatively common for people around this age to do really scary things such as this. I personally believe its a product of our present system that treats teenagers effectively as second class citizens. Without choice and any control in their life the "worst cases" end up doing really strange stuff.

MartinCron• 14 years ago

If you haven't yet, I would like to encourage you to share more of your story. You seem to have both a fascinating history and solid self-awareness.

yelsgib9• 14 years ago

For those of you who claim that the right thing in this situation would be to turn the child over to the authorities - what exactly do you think the authorities are going to do to make this situation better? The child obviously has some darkness that he needs to work through - to work through darkness he needs the support of a loving community. I find it very sad and disturbing that some commenters (who I assume are adults) believe that the right thing to do is to hand a child like this over to the police or mental institutions. This idea that the police are some sort of magical wand that you can wave at problems to make them go away is at the center of our (our here meaning the US & Britain's) social decay (c.f. the current treatment of drug abusers, ethnic minorities, and the "mentally ill" in the United States).

Assuming this story is true, what OP did was the right, human, adult thing to do - to treat the child as a human being capable of change and growth and to see to it that the community accepted him and moved him towards change. Concepts like "justice" and "psychosis" are easy to throw around and are very practical, but their use is typically the root of more harm than good.

maskedinvader• 14 years ago

well said, the story seems a little too dramatic for me to believe is possible...wow ! I mean mailing stuff...May be the right thing to do is to show the damage done which the author did, and to let the kid off with some counselling and forgiveness allowing a chance for him to change his ways and have a shot at a bright future.

minitrollster5• 14 years ago

I don't think the point people are making when they say he should be handed to the authorities is that they'll fix him. The point is that he should answer for his actions. Fixing the darkness or not, the kid DID make death threats and make someone's life miserable by unacceptable and criminal means. Criminals need rehabilitation, but they also need to be taught that their behaviour is unacceptable.

yelsgib9• 14 years ago

It's unfortunate that you have such strong authoritarian beliefs. Can I convince you that your ideas that criminals (this child is 17 - he has not, by our own state's very definition - attained an age where he can be defined as a criminal or where he can knowingly enter into the social moral contract that binds adults) "need to be taught that their behavior is unacceptable" is a very modern one and - what's more - one that is supported by state propaganda?

Do you actually believe that anyone who enters the prison system is "taught that their behavior is unacceptable?" Many sources indicate that the more common response to incarceration is "criminalization" - that this child has a high probability of connecting with negative forces which will push him further down the path of his darkness.

I recommend you read "Discipline and Punish" by Foucault - I think it would open your ideas to the genealogy of some of the ideals underpinning your beliefs and apparent faith in the modern justice system.

wpietri• 14 years ago

Do you really think that after that long sit-down with his victim he doesn't understand his behavior is unacceptable?

zainny3• 14 years ago

And your implication that a "loving community" can wave a magic wand and make this sick adult better is equally incorrect.

I would suggest in fact that some of the signs this troubled individual would behave in this manner were probably already apparent to his parents, but they chose to dismiss it because no parent really believes their own child can be capable of such horrible behaviour.

This is a person that needs professional help - from an objective third party. The authorities, while certainly imperfect, can provide this.

For all you know, when this adult was confronted and "broke down" it could have all been an act. He could truly be a psychopath (and his actions certainly suggest that)

muhuk• 14 years ago

I would probably do the same thing, I would probably not report the child of my friend to authorities.

But looking at this as a third person; I think he got away too easily. He did something evil, he got caught and what are the consequences? A slap on the wrist.

tfigment• 14 years ago

I'm of multiple minds of this. My personal relation to this is my brother was a punk in his teenage years. He stole from friends, neighbors, and even my mom's engagement ring and hocked it all to by drugs and alcohol. My dad was and still is in the firm "loving community" area with him. Selling my dad's car was the last straw and we sent him to a juvenile detention/rehab/detox center to recover. We feel this was actually worse because this is where he learned from the other people how to lie, cheat, and evade better than he would have on his own. For years he would comeback and steal from my dad knowing he would not be turned in or would at least be released to his care. Now he is career criminal and next chance for parole is in 16 years.

My brother needed professional help but I don't think he got it from that rehab center and sure as hell did not get it in subsequent trips to prison when he became an adult. For him he could act and say exactly the right thing to whoever he was talking too to convince them he was reformed yet again. Being sent away for rehab was probably the wrong action but we did try several things prior to that that never helped.

I think this kid is trouble and the parents knew it which is why they gave the author the option to engage the authorities. They maybe afraid to do it themselves not knowing if he would hold a grudge against them if they did it (my brother did). I don't know if engaging the legal system would help and certainly wouldn't if he was a psychopath. For the author though, this is probably the best option as he did not escalate the situation with the kid. He probably will not be the target in the future but hard to say really. If the kid really is capable of those actions then I would not want him on my enemy's list. The kid has just learned that there are no real consequences for his actions. I think the parents need to be the ones that take action and at least have him see a psychologist as a minimum.

yelsgib9• 14 years ago

Neither do imply nor do I believe that a "loving community" can waive a magic wand and make this sick child better. I do believe that it is more or less the only chance he has. There is ample evidence that our justice system and public mental health facilities are woefully inadequate for dealing with mental disturbances which are increasingly abundant in society. The idea that "professionals" are somehow intrinsically capable of dealing with these sorts of problems is one of the more troubling and pervasive myths in the United States (at least among people I know/have met/in the beliefs of the people as presented in the media). I'm not an expert, but my impression is that ther countries known for having better track records w/r/t criminal and mental rehabilitation (Norway, Finland, Japan) have stronger community structures and a more communal-based jail/asylum system.

What do you imagine happening to this child once he begins receiving professional help - (and let's be clear, here - I am advocating professional help - e.g. I think it's good that the child will go to counseling) - from the authorities that be? If he is put into jail he has a high probability of becoming criminalized (attaching to a community of criminals ) - if he is put into an asylum he has a good chance of becoming institutionalized. What is the root of your faith in our prison/mental health system? I honestly want to know.

It seems that your belief might stem in the idea that the child's parents are somehow morally or intellectually weak and that therefore the government has to step in and be the child's "strong father/mother." Is this correct? If so, why do you believe that government agencies deserve this sort of power? Have they earned it?

InclinedPlane5• 14 years ago

Stop. Rewind.

You are calling a 17 year old person a "child". This is wrong, and perfectly in keeping with the trend of failing to raise children into mature adults.

17 year olds will be able to vote on their next birthday. They can hold jobs, they can drive cars, they can fly planes, they can even serve in the armed forces with their parents' permission. 17 year olds fought in the battle of Iwo Jima.

Calling this person a child diminishes them, and takes away their capacity for agency and responsibility. A big part of being a healthy, functional adult in society is responsibility. You can nurture them within a loving community all you want but if you protect them entirely from the consequences of their actions they will never become anything more than children.

anonymous• 14 years ago

Just because he's 17 doesn't mean he has grown up. He obviously hasn't and treating him like a grown-up and expecting him to take responsibility when he obviously hasn't reached that part of his mental development would be very detrimental. That's why the article writer made sure to impress upon his parents that the boy needs counselling - to work through and correct whatever mental/behavioural issues he has.

That argument of course only holds if your goal is utilitarian with regards to the well-being of society as a whole and that family in particular. If you just seek to satisfy your inner craving for "justice", by all means - call the cops, destroy his life, create another criminal and drug user and watch him and his parents lose any hope of normal life, while you laugh and twirl your moustache from atop the moral high tower.

beseku• 14 years ago

When I think back to the decisions I made as a 17 year old (and an 18, 19, 20 ... year old) I think it is perfectly valid to call a 17 year old a child.

At that age I would guess a large proportion can barely cook for themselves, have never lived alone, probably never paid a bill or shopped at supermarkets.

bigiain• 14 years ago

"You are calling a 17 year old person a "child". This is wrong, and perfectly in keeping with the trend of failing to raise children into mature adults."

I see it slightly more cynically - in my opinion, either the 17 year old is "child" so is not held responsible and his parents are, or he is not a child and is held responsible. I don't accept the assumption that _nobody_ is responsible for a badly brought up child. The guy and his wife were put through something a lot closer to "terrorism" than anything many detainees at Guantanamo ever managed. If the kid had been Arabian, and hs parents had knowingly or unknowingly provided training and equipment that allowd the kid to do what he did - how differently do you suppose this story would have played out?

Destroyer661• 14 years ago

17 year olds may be able to do all of those things, however we know that the average male's forebrain doesn't fully develop until much later, as much as 8 years later. Some males aged 25 still have not developed to the point of advanced reasoning. Reasoning like being able to see the consequences and harm done by stunts such as sending threats like this. It's certainly not enough to dismiss this and say "he's 17, he's not a child anymore".

engtech3• 14 years ago

The 17 yo might not be a child, but he is immature. His actions were not the actions of a mature individual.

Knowing the 17 yo, and knowing his family means the article author was able to make a judgement call about how seriously he takes the threats against his family and himself now that the veil of anonymity is revealed.

If he was still worried about the threats being enacted after the 17 yo was reveal then I'm sure he would have involved authorities.

Actions have consequences, and while I agree that what the 17 yo did needs to have consequences, by invoking the authorities the author could change this from an act that has a definite conclusion to something that is ongoing (if only on his conscience) when he hears stories about this kid's life 5, 10 and 20 years from now.

To let go of retribution and have a dark part of your life concluded and move on is sometimes a better outcome than having to drag something out to get justice.

yelsgib9• 14 years ago

Stop. Fast-forward.

First of all, you're picking on a very small point. The fact that I referred to this guy/kid/whatever as a "child" isn't really crucial to my argument except perhaps in a pretty indirect/connotative manner.

Second of all, to me, this kid is a child. I know some 30+ year old grown-ass men and women who are children. I was remarking on his (apparent) lack of maturity and his position within the community (still living with parents, pulling [admittedly extreme] "pranks", not living with the consequences of his actions).

I agree that to be an adult you need responsibility and that to get there you must increasingly suffer the consequences of your actions. My point (which you have avoided responding to entirely) centers on the fact that, in the US and the UK, turning ANYONE (child or adult) over to the "authorities" is not any sort of reasonable or useful consequence and, what's more, that it is disturbing to me that this particular idea of "punishment" or "consequences" or "justice" or whatever seems to continue to penetrate the public consciousness.

lwhi2• 14 years ago

Retribution isn't constructive, rehabilitation is. If the authorities were able to enter him into a programme of psychotherapy, perhaps this would have been the better option.

I think the young person who committed the abuse probably could be classed as someone with a (possibly extreme) personality disorder.

Bearing this in mind, turning the other cheek and allowing him to continue unhindered isn't going to be that constructive.

Counselling was mentioned - I really hope the perpetrator receives some; for his sake, and the sake of all those he comes into contact with.

giardini3• 14 years ago

The authorities are precisely the proper people to turn the "child" over to. Only they would have the resources and skills required to determine whether the troll has performed similar acts before and whether he is a psychotic (of course the parents also likely know, but aren't likely to do anything effective).

Also because it provides a record of his activity for future reference.

I don't believe the "game" excuse - I think the troll is a full-blown psychopath.

anamax• 14 years ago

> For those of you who claim that the right thing in this situation would be to turn the child over to the authorities - what exactly do you think the authorities are going to do to make this situation better?

The authorities are going to stop the harrassment.

You seem to be under the illusion that harrassed people have some obligation to help their harrassers.

Feel free to help this wayward person but you're way out of line in complaining that the victim didn't do so.

clintboxe• 14 years ago

Here's a funnier take on confronting an internet troll. Comedian Chris Gethard talks to a commenter who really didn't like his performance in the show "Big Lake."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9s10F4ulkLY

dean• 14 years ago

That's not a troll. And that's not harassment. That's a stalker. I'm shocked Twitter did nothing about this kind of repeated targeted abuse. And I'm very surprised that the police did nothing for someone who was receiving death threats at his front door.

mike-cardwell2• 14 years ago

The bit about the police not being "able" to do anything struck me as a bit bizarre as well...

"I got on to the authorities again but, polite and sympathetic as they were, there didn't seem much that could be done."

Err... Death threat... Contact Twitter and get the IP address of the user, then contact the ISP to get the home address.

Maybe the police couldn't be "bothered" to do anything, but they were certainly capable of it.

drats• 14 years ago

This should be the top comment. Again and again we see Twitter, Facebook etc. being blamed for this type of stuff. But in truth these companies have well established processes to deal with requests from law enforcement authorities, as do ISPs. This situation is scandalous when you see how much time and effort is devoted to revenue raising through traffic and parking violations, but there is apparently no time to follow up death threats.

nkurz• 14 years ago

I'd love to have an update in a few years. Do things end up better for having let him off, or does he cause even more damage?

I think it's unlikely that the author was the only person threatened, and also unlikely that a "talking to" will prevent others from being victims as well. While I'd like to think that people can make a full turn around from evil to good, in this case I'd bet against it. If things are as described, the kid is not a wayward youth but a psychopath.

Certainly from the child's perspective it's better not to involve the authorities. But my greater concern is for the rest of society. No, there is nothing magic the authorities can do that will help this individual, but unlike a counsellor they might be able to restrict his ability to further harm others.

freework• 14 years ago

Theres something about this story that just doesn't sit right with me. Why would a 17 year old go through so much trouble to harass someone just for the heck of it? The guy had to have done something to the kid. Normal people don't spend hours of their lives to harass a single person for no reason.

I call bullshit.

LordIllidan• 14 years ago

The son had become engrossed with conspiracy sites - the ones that blame jews/zionists/everyone for all the ills on the planet, and was a shutin, unable to attach a human face with the victim of his trolling attempts.

I admire the author for his actions, I hope the Troll will take a good lesson from it all.

mike-cardwell2• 14 years ago

It's called trolling, and it's a well known and written about phenomenon. There doesn't even have to be a reason.

prawn2• 14 years ago

Do we have to be careful not to brand this sort of behaviour as trolling? Trolling to me is often mild and more for a laugh rather than for quite malicious purposes. It's easier to ignore.

Anything that constitutes targeted harassment, stalking, bullying and the like should always be framed around those stronger terms. They cannot be things that kids grow up doing for a laugh with friends. They need to be clearly framed as the sort of things that have repercussions, put you on the flipside of society, etc.

po• 14 years ago

I remember reading a story about a man who was knocked unconscious by a group of kids as he was riding past them on a bicycle not too long ago. That story followed a similar trajectory including the writer not pressing charges under the conditions that he would be able to meet with the attacker and ask him questions about why he did what he did.

One of the things I remember about the article was the reaction from the police who said that the show of remorse from the attacker was a well-practiced show and that they had seen it many times in repeat offenders.

Does anyone remember more details about this that would help find it?

FilthyFresh• 14 years ago

I do not believe that this is an act by an individual. Even though the author tracked it down to one attacker, there is something much bigger behind attacks of this caliber.Right now there is a movement underway, a Troll movement.It has been around for no longer than a decade, but already it has shown the signs of a serious problem to come. It's essentially a gang mentality that ropes these "kids" in to participate in trolling. In the 90's I was lucky enough to have not grown up in the circumstances that would lead me into joining a gang. A desire to feel like your a part of something combined with the desire to feel powerful is a tool for whoever is recruiting these trolls(mostly older siblings or friends cause them to want to imitate).Just as these kids,imagine your self put under the wrong(for a successful life) circumstances at that age,you may have been persuaded into trying new drugs, or gang banging.

By meddling with the lives of others, one can get a feeling of true power. This feeling of power when combined with the comradeship of fellow trolls can be a very dangerous mix. Gangs recruit new members by playing on both those desires, first they are given a gun (they are now powerful, They hold the power over human life in their hands), next they are given comradeship (a feeling of belonging, they are now a part of something). At the age of 17, these kids, placed under the right(to this way of life) circumstances are soooooo susceptible to the gang mentality. The gang mentality is present everywhere you look, its just at different levels of activity. Give a kid a bat or ball, surround him with teammates, and give him something to do; Compares with giving a kid a computer, surrounding him with fellow trolls, and something to do (harassing and cyber attacking);Now lets throw in actual street gangs for a third level of comparison with the past. Give a kid a gun, surround him with fellow gang members, and something to do. Although baseball has stayed offline and in the ballpark to this day; The street gangs have moved online in the form of a 17 year old kid with a computer.

This is only a preview of whats to come. Imagine second generation trolls. These kids have had access to a computer, ipad, laptop, cell phone, since they were truly children(3-12). These trolls can hack,they are tech savvy, they can find your address, access all your online resources. They now have the power over a human life. Unlike street gangs of the 90's, the internet has allowed them to be apart of something big, bigger than any street gang has ever had the opportunity to reach. Where a gang was always limited by location, Trolling is only limited by language. A troll hierarchy has formed in several different hives. Troll soldiers are dispatched in the thousands, maybe even millions, in strategically placed cyber attacks. Worse these troll soldiers, at the easily corruptible age of 17, will have the mentality of an anarchist,ego of a street banger, and posses the technical ability of a hacker. Where a banger would steal and old ladies purse, they will get into her bank account. Where a banger would shoot someone for initiation, these trolls would attack every online outlet you use, ruin your name and image. Even worse, for the most part they need not be money motivated, their parents are paying the cable bill.And since this would for the most part be completely anonymous, they wouldn't have to watch as they shoot you in the face just as a street banger has to. They wont feel the blood splash their face as your life crumbles beneath you.

I can only hope measures are taken against the Trolls fast. It is not a hacker mentality they posses, but that of an anarchist and street banger.Those in power at the time it becomes apparent, will, as with every other threat to humanity, not act until it is too late.These kids do this because there is a lack of communication from the ones who raise them, they need attention, advice,something to do (baseball?). The authorities cant fix this, further separating the parents from the kids will only strengthen the bonds of the trolls. Who do you think they will go to after their parents have further distanced themselves from their kid by sending him off to juvy? Their friends who were a part of their bad way of life? The gang?

kvnn2• 14 years ago

There is an alarming amount of laziness in the conclusion of this affair. I'm hoping that significant actions were left out of the post.

Who has the kid been talking to online? What else has he been up to? Who else is he harassing? How was he going to escalate the "game"?

It seems that the author wanted a peaceful resolution so badly that he manufactured one falsely.

sneak• 14 years ago

That's not a troll, that's just a run-of-the-mill dickhead.

Trolling is a art.

blerrrgh• 14 years ago

17 is OLD. This is a high school kid, and maybe he's immature, but he crossed a very serious line. The line between prank phone calls, and the types of coercive intimidation tactics he employed shouldn't be glossed over.

One other comment about this anecdote: I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Revealing your true identity online, on the internet can be very, VERY risky. Downright dangerous. The fact that Google+ and Facebook encourage this as a normal, casual practice is irresponsible.

The internet is high-powered super-charged tachnology, which needs to be respected as such. It's not like putting your name in the phone book. VIPs who retain attourneys, hire personal assistants, and hire other staff (possibly even professional security) have adequate countermeasure to cope with online stalkers. Average individuals do not.

Consider that in ye olden days, predating even dial-up, there were notorious problems with local TV stations who would hire pretty women as their meteorologists. These were professional broadcasters that had problems with public exposure.

Craigslist has a firm understanding of some of the cold realities of the internet, in particular, prostitution, and they advise their users with very little whitewash. Twitter, Facebook and Google+ should do the same.

voldemort122• 14 years ago

Am I the only one who feels like this story is hugely, hugely embellished? It is just too picture perfect. And absolutely none of the comments herein seem to question any aspect of it whatsoever. It is straight-up revenge-porn. My bet is that certain aspects of this actually happened, but things just don't happen this smoothly in real life.

Millennium• 14 years ago

If you've ever seen very young puppies playing, you know that it's not as cute as it sounds. There's yelping and pain, and often even blood as the puppies bite one another mercilessly. But as the days and weeks pass, that stops; by being bitten, the puppies learn that biting hurts. It takes a little while, and is perhaps not the most pleasant of methods, but it's what their minds can process.

Some people are the same way. It's a cruel thing to force a bully (or its net-cousin, the troll) to look in the mirror and see what they've really done; what they really are. It messes with a person's head in a way that those who haven't experienced it cannot understand. But many of them legitimately NEED that kind of cruelty; it's the language they speak, the stimulus they know how to sense.

It's still cruel, mind you; it shouldn't be shied away from, but it shouldn't be glorified or looked forward to either. Sometimes it's not even possible, especially in the age of the Internet. But when it can be done, I'd call it preferable to bringing in the authorities. It's less wasteful, on account of not throwing up lifelong obstacles for the troll to overcome, and when properly applied it hurts worse than the law would allow our authorities to inflict anyway. Justice and vengeance, all wrapped up in a nice, neat package.

Jd• 14 years ago

One potentially but as of yet unmentioned aspect is the "game thing" itself. The fact that he refers to this as a "game," indicates that by means of some conspiracy theory site or other, he was more or less interacting with others in competitive harassment.

Take the following potential scenario:

  Impressionable youth joins conspiracy site, finds lots of anti-semitic information. 
  The youths of the forum are encourage to pick a Jew and harass them, recording both their creations (i.e. a plastic container filled with ashes), and the responses of the person they are harassing.
  Within the context of a game this harassment can immediately seem quite harmless. I am actually not thinking much about the person who is on the receiving end of my "prank" anymore, I am simply thinking of the optimal reaction I can get from my "innovative" creation in the harassment sector. 

  Anyways, easy to see how something like this could get out of hand. Very out of hand in this case.

reledi• 14 years ago

My thoughts as well. It was likely too difficult or embarrassing for him to reveal his true motivations and intentions in front of his family and his victim. Leo should have dug deeper.

Meeting A Troll

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