The Surreal Magnificence of Fatherhood

by shreyans • 2 years ago

178 208 2 years ago

That was a great article. It highlights many things I routinely hear in church about how God works through families. They and the books we read talk about how children are a gift that humbles us, starts transforming our character, and teaches us a lot. God uses children in big ways.

Recently, we’ve been reading Disciplines of a Godly Man by R. Kent Hughes. Today we’re to discuss the chapter on Fatherhood. I was happy to see the author had learned a few of these lessons. Here’s a few for those interested.

Do’s include investing time in them, speaking tenderly, teaching them, setting an example, discipline where necessary, and especially praying for them. If they have Christ, and God intervenes for them, many situations day to day work out better than if left purely to human nature. My friends strongly attest to this with many examples.

Don’t included too much criticism (or too little praise), excessive strictness, irritability (esp “been at work all day!”), inconsistency, and favoritism. He gives examples of each hurting relationships between fathers and sons.

I thought those were a nice start. Character of Christ, putting the children first (love), and some specific tips. Lastly, we can be calm knowing God is in control of every step of our future. He just expects us to act on what we’ve learned a day at a time. He’ll only let happen what needs to happen for His plan for our lives and our kids’ lives. That’s comforting.

hooverd• 2 years ago

As someone who used to work with a children's hospital (on the EMR site but still) I wish we could find and kill the asshole who decided a myriad of childhood cancers was in their grand plan.

nickpsecurity3• 2 years ago

You can save over ten million children from murder if you raise support to ban abortion. Cancer is horrible, too. People following Christ built many hospitals, orphanages, recovery programs, and places like Life Choices Memphis to do what we can for them.

You show two, common views: God owes us something; no gratitude.

God is a sovereign being who can do what He wants with His creation like you do with your possessions. If we always choose evil, He owes us nothing but wrath. Yet, people expect God of all creation to come down, drop on His knees to kiss their feet, and do an entire list of things to please them and earn their respect. What arrogance!

In fact, His lovingkindness and mercies are on everything He’s made. He gives the gift of children to many people, gives medical treatment for cancers that human activities (eg chemicals/food/stress) are likely causing, and all the good things in our lives. Gor protects so many children that there’s almost ten billion people on Earth.

So, people show up on Hacker News grateful for all God has given them: children, our daily lives, and even good submissions here. Nope! Maybe you thank Him for protecting billions of lives or motivating tens of billions in charity. Nope! Instead, people act like He doesn’t exist, censor the Gospel in media, curse His name in movies, and accuse Him on HN with no credit for any positive things.

God must love us to keep letting us live, healing our kids, etc. While we were still sinners (God’s enemies), Christ died for us so we’d get a second chance. You should repent of the evil in your heart. Once you meet God, you may thank Him for all He does for you instead of curse Him. Especially for the gift of eternal life.

mistermann4• 2 years ago

Do you believe that to be optimal gameplay?

aliasxneo• 2 years ago

I was gonna say you must be new to HN, but it appears you’re not. I assumed the anti-Christian sentiment had finally driven most Christians away from here.

genghisjahn• 2 years ago

I’ve been here for a bit and I’m a Christian. Pain and suffering are difficult to rationalize with the whole “God only gives you want you can handle stuff.” It’s not comforting. Bad things happen to Christians all the time. I try to ease suffering no matter who it happens to. It does help me to remember that Jesus suffered too.

I’d say more but my son is saying “play with me” over and over. Take care ya’ll.

anonu2• 2 years ago

I think your comment is additive to the conversation, despite it not agreeing with the core HN cohort. Not worth downvoting IMO.

isoprophlex4• 2 years ago

If you want to prosetylize, go hand out flyers in a shopping mall or whatever...

mistermann4• 2 years ago

Do the HN guidelines explicitly outlaw proselytization of specific metaphysical frameworks? Because there is more than one person engaged in the activity.

nazghoul• 2 years ago

Good read. I really liked the line about soliciting advice from second time parents.

Also: “We all came out like this. This is how it has always happened. Insane.“

… I was a C-section :P

DoingIsLearning2• 2 years ago

Well, there are Persian texts talking about c-sections more than 3 millenia old. So I guess if you adjust your timeline you can argue C-sections are also "how it has always happened" for some of us.

flpm2• 2 years ago

As a second time parent, looking back now, that is such a good advice. On the first play-through we second guessed ourselves so much. On the second time, we knew where all the good loot was hidden. :) we felt so much more in control. The truth is that a lot of details first-time parents try to control don't really matter that much or cannot really be controlled.

xandrius• 2 years ago

What are these details? I'm curious to know what to focus on and what not to.

mattgreenrocks3• 2 years ago

Pet peeve: parents you meet in passing warning me that $THEIR_KIDS_AGE is actually the hardest age to parent after asking how old my son is. :)

Nobody said it was going to be easy. They’re just venting after all. I just smile and nod.

dgfitz5• 2 years ago

I always tell my spouse: “the easiest day we had with the kids was yesterday” and they’re 2, 4, and 10.

dannyfreeman• 2 years ago

What a beautiful post. I've always had a difficult time explaining how having a child has fundamentally changed who I am to people who don't have kids. This captures some of that well. Thank you for sharing!!

mattgreenrocks3• 2 years ago

It’s difficult to relate even to parents. But some days honestly feel like Christmas did when I was a kid, with all the potentiality. And the bad days have a sense of endless responsibility that can feel overwhelming.

My life in my 20s had too little meaning. Now, in my 40s, sometimes it feels like too much. I much prefer it to how it used to be, though.

mpbart• 2 years ago

As a fellow first-time parent with a 1 month old at home this captured a lot of feelings that I’ve experienced recently. Thanks for taking the time to write such a thoughtful article

mr_mitm• 2 years ago

Is it like this for everyone? I sometimes wonder how large the number of cases is where the parent does not feel like that at all but refrains from sharing it due to societal expectations and fear of being judged. It would introduce a bias regarding these stories.

tafka• 2 years ago

No. I for one am probably heading down the divorce path that the article speaks of (14mo child)

A_D_E_P_T2• 2 years ago

If you can hold out for another 18 months, it'll get much better.

In the meantime, if your means allow it, nannies and au pairs can be a huge help. I'd even advise you to hire a full-timer. (You might even want to consider moving to a country where this is cheaper and more easily possible.) There ought to be no shame in it.

thuanao• 2 years ago

I don’t know your situation but for me everything changed once my child could speak and started going to preschool (so I got a break). The fall-in-love-with-child phenomenon didn’t happen to me until my child was around 3-1/2

orzig2• 2 years ago

There are ways to throw money at the stress you are feeling, which will still be cheaper than divorce. Children can get much easier as they mature, which might give you space to work through your marriage even if it feels impossible now.

I was deeply burned out at the 14 mark with my first child. I did lots of things since then and am much better even after more children.

A_D_E_P_T2• 2 years ago

It's certainly not.

To speak plainly, I wasn't terribly interested in my son until he turned 3 years old. Then he started talking, started developing a personality with interests of his own, and fatherhood then became much more interesting. But I was intentionally quite uninvolved in those very early years. I don't regret this, don't see how else it could have been, and indeed I feel that some degree of fatherly aloofness towards infants is natural.

bqmjjx0kac• 2 years ago

That's really interesting to read. I'm a man who has absolutely zero interest in interacting with babies and infants, but kids who can talk and ask questions can be pretty funny and cute even. My wife doesn't understand this at all.

ariwilson• 2 years ago

I feel sorry for the mother or whoever was taking care of your child for the first 3 years.

Someone has to guide the small children towards being functional human beings and it's a lot of work. I found they have interesting personalities and ways of expressing themselves by 1 at the latest.

causal3• 2 years ago

some degree of fatherly aloofness towards infants is natural.

That may have been your experience, but I would push back hard against generalizing that notion.

For my first child, we bottle-fed formula, and I was very involved in her routine: night feedings, diaper changes, counting days since the last poop, all of it. I felt very invested in every tiny milestone. It was a lot of problem solving, and I was very invested in her progress.

For my second child, because my wife breast-fed that time, I felt a little bit more like an outsider. I jumped in to help where I could, but it took longer for me to feel the same kind of connection. I also got much less paternity leave the second time around, which is likely the bigger factor.

All that to say, I think there are a lot of environmental factors that can play into infant attachment. No one should feel guilty for not having attachment right away, but it should still be pursued.

bossyTeacher• 2 years ago

[flagged]

rybosome• 2 years ago

I’m not going to shame you for your parental experience, but it does not mirror mine as a father.

When my daughter was born I was crying with joy. And while her infancy was enormously challenging, especially as she was born right when COVID lockdowns began (which prevented ANY assistance), I was immediately and profoundly in love with her.

It was very important to me to be extremely engaged when she was an infant. I wanted to - and did - earn her trust as a caretaker and source of comfort. And now, as a 4 year old, the relationship I have with her is utterly priceless.

IncreasePosts• 2 years ago

You don't see how you could have spent more time with your kid for the first 3 years of their life?

It's pretty simple, by doing it.

mattgreenrocks3• 2 years ago

Took me about 2-3 years to find my groove as a father.

Later I found out that post-partum depression is a real thing that fathers can go through. I went through all the stages of grief for my old life that I’d grown too attached to. Only when I’d gone through that could I actually open up to accept a newer, bigger life.

My son is 7 now. I love him dearly and am so grateful that I can be a father to him.

youoy3• 2 years ago

I unexpectedly went through that when my second kid was born. I somehow felt that my first kid grew up suddenly and I was not able to say goodbye to the little boy that he was while a single kid.

orzig2• 2 years ago

I’ll throw in another anecdata point (more than one as I have multiple children): I found them to be mostly logistical burden for the first few months he is writing about, but my love fully developed over the years. Don’t give up hope if you’re not feeling it instantly!

youoy3• 2 years ago

Of course it's not like this for everyone. Even for him it is not like this all the time :) but if you listen to the world around you there are these bits of beautiful life that appear here and there.

He says this at some point:

That was the second thing Theo taught me. The first thing he taught me, at 430am in his first week, when he wouldn't stop crying, as a rage started bubbling up in me, was that no amount of urging, forcing, or frustration will get this tiny baby to do what I want him to do. All I can do is surrender and listen; find peace and meet him from a place of equanimity. Then maybe I'll have the presence of mind to change the wet diaper that was making him cry.

Ask yourself how many times per day do you take a moment to surrender and listen... If you do it (even without a kid) you will find beauty in every aspect of life. The thing about kids is that it can be so overwhelming that they give you no other choice. Of course you still have the choice of not doing it, and this can make you start building a lot of frustration against the kid, your partner, life itself...

6274674• 2 years ago

is it like this for everyone

The answer is certainly "no". But does it matter? I guess it does in this age - after decades of social conditioning that parenthood is not much but an individual's lifestyle choice.

All this leading to worsening of social cohesion at all levels, inability to think beyond one's lifetime, extreme self-absorption, decrease in hope, demographic collapse across the world.

Not for nothing humans developed social pressure for parenthood: why would most humans willingly choose to give up their selfs for others over decades (if not lifetime)? Even laws/sanctions don't work if you don't morally know what is the right path.

wat100009• 2 years ago

If the survival of the species depends on pressuring people to live their lives in a way that many of them don’t want, then maybe we should just die out.

rayiner• 2 years ago

We have scientific evidence that parenthood floods your brain with all sorts of chemicals, and changes how your brain responds to stimuli. It’s a deeply rooted biological reflex. It may not be true for everyone, but it’s true of close to everyone.

snthd• 2 years ago

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8294566/

Surveys conducted over the last few years on representative samples in the US and Germany suggest that the percentage of parents who regret having children is approximately 17–8%.

DoingIsLearning2• 2 years ago

In the study linked it seems that factors like:

- Financial difficulties

- Being a single parent

- Having children with a disability

All seem to vastly influence the result.

BehindBlueEyes2• 2 years ago

I'd be curious to see regret vs. would you make the same choice again. I can imagine parents nor regretting it, but maybe thinking about it twice if they had known what to expect.

moconnor• 2 years ago

This was the most accurately description of first-time fatherhood I've read. It was a bit light on how debilitating constant lack of sleep can be but everything else: yes.

I would strongly encourage all fathers to become as closely involved with day-to-day care of their babies as possible. Don't wait until they can walk and talk.

exitb• 2 years ago

No. And that’s a bit of an issue - I’ve encountered people that plan to become parents and their understanding of the process is all wrong. Not saying that they’ll end up being bad parents - most people rise to the occasion, but it feels like society tricks people into having kids.

wat100009• 2 years ago

Absolutely. It’s pushed from all angles: you may not think you want kids, but it’ll be amazing. Once you do it you’ll have no regrets. You’ll never experience joy like the joy that they bring.

And that’s actually true for a lot of people. But not everyone. And there’s zero support for trying to figure it out and come to an informed decision before you dive in, and even less for concluding that actually you don’t think it’ll be that great for you and you’re not going to do it.

wat100009• 2 years ago

You’ll certainly never find me stating my true feelings on the matter, outside of internet anonymity or a HIPAA-protected environment.

thefz2• 2 years ago

Better not being much into kids and being free to not have any than being forced to and hating them for the rest of their lives. Spoken as someone who grew very close to such scenario (the second).

munksbeer3• 2 years ago

No, it certainly isn't. But it is a social sin to admit otherwise.

For me, it led to depression, therapy and medication. The first time in my life I'd experienced actual clinical depression. We do have a particularly challenging situation though. I'm always tired, ill, stressed, eat unhealthy, don't exercise enough. Being a parent is all consuming.

It has been getting easier as they get a bit older, and I love my children in all the ways a typical father does. I'd literally die for them. But a lot of the time I just do not enjoy it.

camgunz• 2 years ago

My partner and I have two kids (21 months and 5 weeks) and we absolutely hate the caretaking phase... which lasts a year? Our oldest can be pretty hilarious now so she's net worth it, but it was a journey of misery to get here, and the reason we dove right back into the icy pond of abject awfulness is that we just wanted to get it over with ASAP.

Why is it so torturous? For me, I'm a software engineer, and I became one because I'm obsessive. I like to think about a thing all day every day. The most I get now is maybe three 90 minute chunks a day, maybe a couple three hour chunks a week. If you're not like this you won't understand how it feels, but if you are, you'll know what I mean when I say learning to live without this kind of thing (I guess the term is need for cognition?) has made me into a completely different person.

It does get better though! We do daycare so when they're old enough I get a regular work schedule back. Definitely no nights or weekends though; those days are gone for the foreseeable future. But, like you, I'd do anything for them and I don't regret it. It's just hard to overstate how huge the change is--you legitimately are forced to become a different person (or, I guess, you can choose to not be a very good parent, idk)

mberning2• 2 years ago

I absolutely do not share my true feelings about fatherhood. They would not be viewed kindly or understood by most. Also, how I feel about things does not matter, at all. My obligation is the same regardless of how I feel. So I do my best to adjust my attitude and soldier on. This is just one of the many alienating and lonely aspects of fatherhood.

munksbeer3• 2 years ago

This is just one of the many alienating and lonely aspects of fatherhood.

Yes, agreed. I never share my feelings in real life for the same reason. And it is very lonely. I did therapy for six months which helped. I was in a very dark place at one point.

ricksunny3• 2 years ago

Thank you for sharing genuinely in face of societal pressures. Yes so the autosquelching of valid voices to the conversation like this are part of what keep are from seriously considering taking that big, and especially irreversible, life step.

It's like, in this day and age where anything and everything is said by somebody, we can detect, however subconsciously, an artificial absence of expressing a position expected to exist. So, societal pressure (per the comment) in this case evidently.

mattlondon• 2 years ago

Not for me.

Don't get me wrong I couldn't imagine life without them, don't regret them, and I care for their well being deeply, but it certainly was not (and still is not at 5 and 3 years old) this overpowering feeling of love.

ricksunny3• 2 years ago

I'm also very concerned about self-selection bias for the positive stories like this. Ideal would be an aggregate of fathers anonymously reporting satisfaction vs those reporting dissatisfaction with their choice of having kids , and then (male) non-fathers reporting satisfaction vs dissatisfaction with having kids.

kbelder• 2 years ago

(male) non-fathers reporting satisfaction vs dissatisfaction with having kids

How would that work?

RunSet• 2 years ago

Counterpoint:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36057840/

causal3• 2 years ago

This is not a counterpoint.

isoprophlex4• 2 years ago

I definitely feel a lot dumber compared to ~8 years and three kids ago. Lack of sleep, lack of agency, continuous need for some background level of vigilance...

erulabs• 2 years ago

Nice post, new babies are really magical. There are so many more transformations coming! Now that I have two, one of them coming up on age 4, so many new things make sense. You don’t immediately get the sense of the father/son discipline dynamic when they’re infants. You watch someone go from “perfect” to perfectly human. A little angel to a little man. The first time your child hurts someone: that’s when fatherhood shifts into gear.

And after a few minutes passed I started to...think

Gosh I miss the first-baby newborn phase! Thinking time is dramatically cut in little-kid phase; but hey, tricycles and legos and Playdough!

You’re in it now friend! Keep writing and hang in there, it’s a life-long occupation!

binary132• 2 years ago

Fatherhood transforms men. Becoming a father was by far the most transformative event of my entire life so far. This is the common refrain I’ve heard. Of course, you also have to live up to the vocation.

epicureanideal• 2 years ago

Divorce, child support, alimony, and two weekends of time with your kids per month (what the majority of men end up with), can also be transformative!

If anyone reading this is thinking about having kids, be really careful who you have them with.

borski5• 2 years ago

It is obviously extremely important who you choose to have children with. I completely agree. If I’d had kids in my 20s with my ex, I would have ended up with regrets for the rest of my life (not the kids, but my choice of with whom to have them).

If I have kids now, there’s no chance I’d have regrets. It’s a very different timeline in my life, being in a non-abusive relationship after 8 years of being in one and lots of therapy.

And yes, men can be in abusive relationships with women too.

parpfish• 2 years ago

Reading this just re-confirmed to me that I’m not cut out for parenting. I’m glad he’s digging it, but my reaction to all of the little miracles he described was either rolling my eyes or thinking “that sounds terrible”.

lproven4• 2 years ago

I was exactly the same.

Until it happened to me.

youoy3• 2 years ago

I love this one:

My mother came in with a great tip: when in doubt, ask second time parents, not other first timers.

So true in so many levels.

kazinator• 2 years ago

Even if the other first timer is years ahead of you in parenting because they have an older child, whereas you have a newborn, they just don't remember the newborn stage anymore, and only went through it once. It is all a distant blur to them.

llm_nerd8• 2 years ago

I have four children. I have never regretted it or wished for a different path. I know it isn't for everyone, but it absolutely was and is for me.

At the same time I do think articles like this should be countered with the reality that many fathers aren't overwhelmed with waves of love or "surreal magnificence". With each of my children being born the primary emotions I could point to were dread and anxiety.

The sudden overwhelming obligation to provide care, comfort and security for such a vulnerable human for decades encompasses your being.

One of the reasons birthrates have plummeted in the West, and sentiments about having children have dropped, is that we have no "village", so to speak. Having children is not only an astronomical expense -- every single element of life is dramatically more expensive, made much worse with the housing crisis occurring in many Western nations -- a couple is often entirely on their own. There are no respites or breaks.

And as children get viewed as a selfish luxury, the social norms for what a parent needs to do to be proper climb ever higher.

apwell232• 2 years ago

One of the reasons birthrates have plummeted in the West, and sentiments about having children have dropped, is that we have no "village", so to speak.

It probably true but even the well of who can afford to buy the village aren't having kids.

I think it has more to do with

1. cultural acceptance and lack of strict cultural pressure to have kids. Its unimaginable in India to not have kids by choice. Its not a choice at all unless you want to be pariah.

2. Availability of affordable widespread recreation that will keep you occupied. Affordability of lots of on demand TV, dining out, live music, internet, hobbies, travel ect.

jebarker2• 2 years ago

I also think we've become more self-obsessed and the idea that we might need to sacrifice time spent on ourselves scares us.

zemvpferreira• 2 years ago

I’m 40, rich, coupled, live next door to my parents and close to my inlaws, have plenty of free time. I have no kids and no desire to have kids. My girlfriend is the same and plenty of our friends too.

I’m very happy for people who have children and love them to bits, but many of just don’t want to.

borski5• 2 years ago

And there isn’t anything wrong with that at all. Kids are, in my opinion, literally the only life choice you can’t walk away from having made. That is extremely high stakes, and not everyone has the appetite for it or desire to engage in it.

That doesn’t make anyone who has kids or wants to have kids better or worse. Plenty of people have kids and should not have, and they end up neglecting their kids or abusing them.

Have kids if you want to. Don’t if you don’t. Just realize that if you wait too long to make a choice, those options become much more limited and lean much more toward not having them. And if you make the choice without thinking, you’re just gambling, but you’re gambling with someone’s life, not to mention your own.

If it sounds scary… good. That means you’re thinking about it. You just have to decide if you want to do this particularly scary thing, and if the potential reward outweighs the risk.

And, I think it’s important to be okay with that choice changing in either direction. My wife didn’t want kids, and that opinion has changed, through no pushing of my own.

(The proverbial you, not you specifically, since it sounds like you’ve decided)

selectodude• 2 years ago

One of the reasons birthrates have plummeted in the West, and sentiments about having children have dropped, is that we have no "village", so to speak. Having children is not only an astronomical expense -- every single element of life is dramatically more expensive, made much worse with the housing crisis occurring in many Western nations -- a couple is often entirely on their own. There are no respites or breaks.

It’s the opportunity cost of having children. When you’re poor, it’s not changing what you can do with your life. You were never able to go to dinner or on vacation. When you’re wealthy, you can afford to bring them with you, or better, pay somebody to watch them while you’re gone. The well-off middle class needs to weigh completely changing their lives.

The_Colonel5• 2 years ago

When you’re poor, it’s not changing what you can do with your life. You were never able to go to dinner or on vacation.

When you're poor and child-less, you can still sleep in on weekends, watch Netflix/game all day/night or whatever other (cheap) hobby you have. It's even possible to do a decent amount of travelling on a very tight budget these days (low-cost airlines, couchsurfing...). All things considered, today is not a bad time to be a poor person in terms of being able to have fun.

I think even for middle class, the main cost is actually the time rather than the monetary cost.

But I do agree that opportunity cost is the right framing.

stared• 2 years ago

And it is reflected in numbers. The fertility rate has a non-monotonous relationship with income. It is the middle-income fertility that plummets.

https://x.com/theHauer/status/1222514313723875332/photo/1

From "Population Pyramids Yield Accurate Estimates of Total Fertility Rates", https://link.springer.com/epdf/10.1007/s13524-019-00842-x?sh...

throwaway20374• 2 years ago

How is this any different than 25/50/75 years ago? Not much being said here. What has really changed in many wealthy countries: There is less family support because many people live far from their parents. And, proportionally, housing/healthcare/education is more expensive for middle class and below compared to previous generations.

6274674• 2 years ago

And you don't think the destruction of the village and sharp decline in birth rate feed of each other? Individuals have outsourced so much to abstract "institutions" that they can't see alternatives whatever precarious and worsening services these institutions provide.

IgorPartola• 2 years ago

No. The reason why is because we have opportunities to move up and down the social ladder.

Basically it’s not really like the whole village raised your kid before, that’s more of a romanticized version. What happened was that your extended family helped because you lived with them for your entire life. So you have a kid, your sister in law watches them along with your mother while you work. Where do you work? Well that’s wherever your family works. If you are born into a farm, you are a farmer. If your family is blacksmiths, you’ll be a smith. Or a dung sifter, etc. If you can’t do it, maybe your farmer family sends you to apprentice with the local smith. But you rarely get a choice in what you do, where you live, etc.

Moreover, if you don’t like your family/they don’t like you: tough. You might hate your sister in law but who else will watch your kid while you sift dung?

What has changed is that we have the free market. Your can move out, have your own career and hire someone to care for your kids while you work. You no longer have access to “free” childcare but you have access to the job market instead. Want to leave the farm and move to the big city to become a jewelry maker? Go for it. But you won’t have much support to start a family. You are paying for free choice.

anon2917• 2 years ago

Part of the problem is that preferring family today is seen as nepotistic.

Witness the widespread shock that Joe Biden pardoned his son.

wooque• 2 years ago

Birth rates plummeted even in Saudi Arabia and Iran, which are polar opposite of the West, so I'd say loss of "village" is tiny part of the problem.

llm_nerd8• 2 years ago

It's possible for different influences to play a part in different countries and cultures. Further, there is a remarkable scale difference.

The high survivability of children now means that having large numbers of children dropped everywhere. You don't need to have "extras". The problem is when the number drops too much. It did in Iran due to literal government influence, and is quickly turning back to replacement level. Saudi Arabia is above replacement level.

That is very different than Canada (1.33) or South Korea (0.88), or Switzerland (1.39). The scale is dramatically different.

whycome• 2 years ago

I’m not sure I’d consider Iran or Saudi Arabia as polar opposites to the west. Or at least not in the aspects related to kids.

DAGdug4• 2 years ago

“ And as children get viewed as a selfish luxury” I never quite understood this. Who exactly will pay into social security to benefit the next crop of retirees that seem to think it’s selfish to have kids?

nosefurhairdo• 2 years ago

Many people think overpopulation is a legitimate concern. I suspect the argument would be "who cares about social security if we kill the planet" (or something along those lines).

Not my view, just suggesting who might believe the "children as selfish luxury" line.

thefz2• 2 years ago

Social security is well failed in my country, we are paying both for the retirees and for our future selves. So if tomorrow ends up like children of men, sure, no problem.

rangestransform2• 2 years ago

Immigrants, even better that their source country paid for their natal care and education rather than us

beAbU• 2 years ago

I would hope that my own current contribution to the fiscus would pay for my eventual old age pension. And my hypothetical children's future contribution would pay for their own retirement. But alas this is probably not the case.

anon2917• 2 years ago

We don't have a village because no one has kids. The parents I know who are best supported are ones who have tons of siblings.

WalterBright5• 2 years ago

True. Those with large numbers of kids tend to have a family network of mutual support.

llm_trw6• 2 years ago

Do you think this could be because you have so many children?

Anecdotally the more kids in a family the more neglected the child. I can't imagine having more than one child a decade and raising them well.

WalterBright5• 2 years ago

I was one of 5. I was not neglected. I am a horrible person, though, so there's that.

testval123• 2 years ago

There is IMMENSE value in having siblings, particularly later in life when you yourself have kids. Especially if they are in the same city.

llm_nerd8• 2 years ago

I think you horribly misread my post. Do you think I am saying I don't love my children? I love them absolutely. The last word in the universe that applies to them is "neglected". They want for nothing.

Indeed, it's precisely that I care so much that having children wasn't some carefree social media event for me. It was an enormous commitment. The biggest commitment a human can make, in my judgment, and I was all in.

And as another poster already said, one of the greatest gifts a child can have is siblings. This isn't always true and of course there are many counterpoints, but siblings are usually the closest friends and allies in a hostile world.

navane2• 2 years ago

I would argue the opposite. Worst are the only childs. There is just something off socially. Kids with only siblings that are 8+ years older have the same but less severe. You can pick them out from a mile away.

tengbretson• 2 years ago

Do you think this could be because you have so many children?

Four? So many? According to Churchill, four would be the bare minimum.

WalterBright5• 2 years ago

Delaying having children until ones' 30s also is a problem. After 30, fertility rates decline, and birth defects increase. You can't have a lot of children after 30, either.

vardump• 2 years ago

I think steeper decline is at about 37ish years for women.

There's also some deterioration as men age, but it's less obvious.

Some say the combined age should not be over 80. Shrug.

(Should be obvious fertility varies greatly between individuals.)

baxtr2• 2 years ago

Agree 100%.

People say it’s the cost. But what’s way worse is the effort and time you need to spend for every child.

A normal couple, most often with both having to work, will be at their limits to provide for more than 1 child - constantly.

A couple can’t replace the village unless they have tons of money.

llm_nerd8• 2 years ago

I am lucky that I do consulting through my own company, setting my own schedule and availability. It would be impossible otherwise.

Just as one small example, daycares/schools will call for you to pickup your kid -- blowing up your day -- at the slightest indication of illness. With four kids going to school, this means two to six+ times a month your day is going to be completely blown up at any moment. I'm not complaining (though when I was a kid if you had a bit of a stomach ache you chilled in the nurse's office for a bit and 9 times out of 10 go back to class), but the average person cannot accommodate this without quickly finding themselves unemployed. This is just one of a million cases where two working parents and few or no supports leave you in a precarious situation.

crystal_revenge• 2 years ago

As the father of a teenager, I would also add: take parenting "wisdom" from new parents with the same grain of salt you would career advice from someone who just landed their first job.

I personally found the complexities of parenting and, even more importantly, family life, don't really start to emerge until after the first few years.

Talk to divorced parents of older children about the "Surreal Magnificence" of parenting and you'll likely get a hearty chuckle out of them.

deanCommie2• 2 years ago

To put a counter-point on your counter-point:

* Divorced parents aren't representative experiences for most parents. (The oft-used statistics that >50% of marriages end in divorce miss that those with one divorce often end up with N divorces. Aka most PEOPLE, and most COUPLES, do NOT end up divorced)

* The job of a parent is to raise an adult. There are certainly those that become enamored with the idea of parenting a baby/toddler/child and are unprepared for the complicated job ahead. But there are also those that seem to think their job ends as soon as the child is legally an adult. Or those that are all too happy to throw away their decade plus of investment because their teenager going through absolutely normal hormonal chaos are suddenly disrespectful to them.

* In essence, I'm trying to say that divorce parents of older children are just as much full of shit as the new parents in terms of giving someone advice.

vanderZwan• 2 years ago

So I agree that naivety is a thing, but that doesn't mean you have to dismiss the advice. It's just that it's not wise to rely on one person's advice.

I have a two year old (well, she'll be two next week, close enough). Among my nearby friends are five couples who have have children that are one or two years older than mine. Their input has been extremely helpful in the last two years, because it's been mostly in the form of "these are the mistakes we first made and what we eventually figured out". It also helps that they are five very different couples so my partner and I can compare their experiences and figure out what applies to our situation and what doesn't.

Also, by comparison, I have friends with much older children too, and their input can essentially be reduced to "I'm sorry the first two years are a sleep-deprived haze of which my memories are limited to the photos and videos we took, so we have no advice for you."

throwaway20374• 2 years ago

The best parenting advice that I hear does not humble-brag about their own (this is undercurrent of most bad advice), rather acknowledges that each child is different, weird, and special in their own way.

throwaway20374• 2 years ago

Great post, until this:

    > And as children get viewed as a selfish luxury

What country / culture? Surely, no one is saying that in any country that I know well.

llm_nerd8• 2 years ago

In much of the West the ability to have children is economically or logistically (e.g. a career that would fall apart if they had kids) out of reach for many [1], leading many to perceive it as a selfish luxury. A "must be nice" kind of thing.

e.g. https://www.google.com/search?q=children+a+luxury+item

With this comes the perspective that every downside parents enjoy is earned if not poetically satisfying. It is amazing how absolutely without sympathy -- instead holding smug satisfaction -- people are if a parent faces obstacles.

[1] Obviously there are exceptions and different situations exist in different cultures and socioeconomic settings.

ToDougie• 2 years ago

a couple is often entirely on their own.

Yeah. This has been the worst part. Neither of our parents feel the need to help with their TIME, but they will sporadically send us money after making us feel bad about asking. Meanwhile they had all kinds of help from relatives, in time, sweat, and money. Part of the problem is that you don't get your full Social Security benefits until age 70, so for the one grandparent that is still working, they literally do not have the time to help. If they wanted to retire early, they would have to forgo what they perceive as critical $. Alternatively, they could sell their multi-million dollar home and downsize, but their egos could never handle that.

2OEH8eoCRo0• 2 years ago

I wish more of the country had tech work. I shouldn't have to move away from my village across the country to one of a handful of tech hubs.

Incentivize remote work so we can spread out into these cheaper and under served communities.

jacknews• 2 years ago

"there's a part of me somewhere else."

This. Although I'm not sure this merits my quote book. I would phrase it as "there's a big part of me that's someone else" maybe.

anonu2• 2 years ago

Ah, the beauty of hormones and how they effect your perception of life and love.

My experience resonates with the authors. But certainly the experience ranges dramatically for different people under different life circumstances.

hipadev232• 2 years ago

why is this flagged? how do we vouch for a submission

Rendello• 2 years ago

It appears you can only vouch for [dead] submissions: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html

borski5• 2 years ago

I just sent an email to hn@ycombinator.com in hopes ‘dang fixes it.

borski5• 2 years ago

He fixed it, fyi.

hipadev232• 2 years ago

Thanks to you (and dang) for doing that.

saas_startup• 2 years ago

There is a high societal expectation that fatherhood (or motherhood) should look like the one in this article. Having had 2 babies in the last 5 years and observing most of our friends going through parenthood in the last 5+ years I think this is a very biased view that does not reflect reality.

My sample might be a bit biased as most our friends are PhD educated and in Tech or Academia.

My own observations:

- I was not terribly interested in our kids between ages of 0 - 2. This does not mean I did not fully participate in their life, but this was a muscle I had to exercise. I went to therapy as I thought I was somehow broken because thats not how people should feel. What I learned is that feelings are much more common than it is widely accepted.

- Once they started to speak, ask questions, and being more emotionally regulated it became very different. At this point I spend more time with my kids than my wife and generally love spending time with them, its almost effortless. Explaining things, buildings legos, became one of my favourite activities.

- Having daily help (live in nanny, live in grandparents) is an enormous help both from kids and relationship perspective. Seems like a trivial thing but if you do not have live in help you are likely to never be alone again as a couple for more than 24h (i.e. you can't go on a short trip).

Observations about my friends:

- Trying for a baby and being unsuccessful for years or going through multiple miscarriages can make couples extremely sad. You can reduce this risk by trying early.

- If your mental health is not amazing before kids it is likely get worse. This is about functional people that have mild mental health problems. Two of our friends developed severe mental health problems that in one case ended in a divorce and in second case multiple years of unemployment (father who was not primary care giver). This were generally reasonable people that sought mental health help from both therapy and medicine perspective.

- The societal expectations that women should be super excited about motherhood is not always true. Within our friends group probably 50% women are less involved in raising their kids than fathers. Some (reluctantly) admitted that they don't really like how motherhood negatively affected their job prospects, bodies and mental health.

- If you do happen to get divorce with young kids it is likely going to be a life changing event. Situation has to be pretty bad to get divorce with young kids so most likely you will be better off but from the two cases we have seen this typically means severe financial burden and inability to sustain long term relationship afterwards. If you are a women and somehow loose custody there is also going to be pretty severe societal judgement against you even in very progressive locations.

It may sound as a little bit depressing view of parenthood but this is more reality check for those reading only the bright side. Overall, I am extremely happy we have kids and our relationship is stronger than it was before but thats not the case for everyone and it required work.

shakes07• 2 years ago

“Finding babies funny is probably a useful survival mechanism for an overworked parent.”

Currently in week 5 of my own journey with my child, and the above is basically how you have to perceive things as you push through this early phase. Beautiful read, and looking forward to appreciating more as I’m less sleep deprived.

Simon_ORourke• 2 years ago

It's f*cking hard work, for those in any doubt. It's the most difficult web server config file you've ever to edit at 4am to resolve some production outage, for years, without any hope of let up. Is it rewarding, yes, but it's a duty and there's no backup or timeout, you get to experience this 24/7 for at least a few year while they're young.

halfcat• 2 years ago

Accurate. There’s this seemingly never ending stream of moments of desperation, where there are no good answers.

But also if you asked me, “what led to most of the goodness in your life?”, I’d answer:

Moments of desperation

VMG• 2 years ago

counterpoint: it's not

you don't have to sift through some indecipherable mountain of information to find a solution

you just have to provide some basic mammalian service like provide warmth or food in a first world country

it can be stressful but it's actually quite simple

wat100009• 2 years ago

The early years are a ton of simple work. Later, it becomes incredibly complex and difficult. Try dealing with bad choices, power struggles, figuring out and enforcing rules.... Now try it as a typical techie person who has trouble engaging with things they don’t enjoy and doesn’t understand people.

Sifting through an indecipherable mountain of information is fun. I’ll do it in my spare time. My reaction to some ridiculous bug report is, hell yeah, let’s go.

The hardest stuff in my life has nothing to do with computers and it’s not even remotely close.

jonstewart• 2 years ago

It’s surreal, for sure, but I would like the drugs this guy is on. I can’t wait till they’re off to college when I’m 58 and I can program full bore again.

tomcam• 2 years ago

I still feel that way. My kids are well into their third decades.

lproven4• 2 years ago

I enjoyed this.

I became a father after 51 years of avoiding it and avoiding children.

It has changed my life and enriched it in ways I could not have imagined before.

I monitored myself and my internal state as closely as I am able from learning that my partner was pregant until a few months after the birth. I could not detect the slightest difference in my mind, but I have gone from strongly disliking children to being a loving dad who enjoys being around kids. I am really enjoying it.

It feels like a whole section of my biological programming has been unlocked and while I couldn't feel it happening, I am now a different person, and a happier one too.

It has been the most life-altering experience I've ever had, and I've nearly died, I've had skeletal surgery while awake, and more.

nachox999• 2 years ago

"Do you remember falling in love for the first time? Fatherhood feels like this."

That's EXACTLY what I felt when my daugther was born

mdip• 2 years ago

I have to say that nothing in my life compared to having children. I have a 15 and a 17-year-old, today.

I think the biggest factor was the shift in self-preservation instinct. Before my son was born, I had "believed" that I'd be the kind of guy who -- barring alternatives -- would jump in front of a bullet, sacrificing my own life to save my child.

But I'd been on Earth for 29 years at that point and during that time, one of the things that's sort of wired into you is "avoid, at all costs, the path of projectiles fired from guns." Though I recognized that this sort of thing doesn't happen to the vast majority of people in my position, I'd wondered whether or not that instinct might kick in should that occasion ever occur.

Shortly after my son was born, after the haze of sleepless nights ended, I realized something -- really, everything -- had changed. Replaying that scenario in my head, I no longer worried at all about how I'd react. I knew that there would be no scenario, ever again, where my safety would take precedence over that of my son (and later, my daughter). It wasn't the complexity of knowing I would have an impossible time living with myself if I survived and my son had died; it was like my brain had rewired a new instinct.

And as any parent with children of sufficient age has probably experienced, it was tested time and again, though thankfully in much less serious ways. I remember teaching my daughter to ice skate at age 5 and upon watching her lose her balance, watching as my body lurched forward and dove under her, clumsily catching her and breaking her fall.

"Watching" is the way I describe it because I don't remember ever having a thought in advance of doing it nor any control over my body once it had made the inevitable choice. There was no planning, no strategy, no honest understanding that a guy who'd never slid into first base, dove to catch a football or been skilled in any way when it came to sports along with not being particularly good in a pair of hockey skates[0] had a greater chance of injuring myself in the fall than my daughter had of injuring herself in five layers of padded cloth falling a couple of feet to the ground. I remember the moment I'd "saved her" in triumph and the subsequent feeling of defeat during the hours spent in the ER diagnosing my fracture rib.

I often compare the kind of parent I thought I would be against the kind of parent I ultimately became. I had put off having kids mostly due to my sister-in-law's 4-year-old terror (who turned out just fine). I would be the strong, stern Dad who didn't let their child misbehave. I would temper this by being the loving, affectionate Dad that my own was. And while I became the latter, I quickly realized how much more effective it is to call out and encourage the good behavior. I learned to have "sit downs" and discuss the bad behavior but to be gracious with it. I understood how poorly I reacted to negativity as a child and how discouraging that was to my success when I saw my son respond like I did.

Somehow, through a divorce and ensuing turmoil in my own life, I managed to end up with two teenage children who love nothing more than to spend time with Dad. We have a less-than-perfect parenting time schedule that the laws in my state make impossible for me to change (despite my flexible schedule and my children's desires) but my kids would rather schedule friend time on Mom's clock and invite friends out with us on my time. My kids both call me every day after school and we talk, sometimes for hours. We play Fortnite five out of seven nights an evening -- a game I'd be unlikely to touch without them[1] but one I'm thankful that we "play on the same team" and use mostly for talking to one another over twelve miles.

I realized that up until about age 12, I could read their minds and understood them better than they knew themselves. Sometime in their teen years, I discovered that -- in some ways -- they are more brave, more honest and better children than I ever was at my best.

I remember thinking "I'm not going to push programming on them" because I really respected the fact that my Dad didn't push what he did on me -- he wasn't a programmer, but he supported my second love as if it were his own. And I remember how proud I was when my daughter signed up for programming class in 8th grade and yelled at me when I suggested she might enjoy "art" (her passion and offered at the same time) more "I'm NOT doing this for YOU, Dad!" That's my girl.

I think the biggest adjustment, though, is realizing that they are the entire reason I'm here. Every single thing I do comes with the question: "How does this affect them?" I might have looked at a man who behaved that way and thought "that's the kind of Dad I want to be" but I know there's nothing special about that with me -- it was a re-wiring. I fear my own death only in that I know how it would affect them were it to come suddenly in their young lives.

I, like most boys raised by stereo-typical "Family Ties" or "The Cosby Show" parents learned "men don't cry" and rarely had the temptation to do so until after they were born. Last month, "The Remarkable Life of Ibelin" was released and I made it a point to get through it alone before watching it with my kids. I sobbed -- and I mean ugly cried -- through the whole thing sitting alone in my bedroom. I didn't do much better the second time with my kids[2]. I'm blessed that I've never lost my composure over my own life and its struggles but I can imagine how devastating and permanent losing one of my children would be.

I thought I had a pretty good idea of what it would be like to have kids, I thought I had a lot figured out before I had them. There are few things I had more wrong in my life. Maybe it's possible for some to accurately imagine/prepare for the experience but I had absolutely no idea. I didn't have the arrogance to pray for the kind of teenagers I raised. My son and daughter both share so much of my brain, the way I process things and the like but they use it differently. When people say "your kids teach you as much as you teach them", that's what they mean. You watch your own struggles get adapted to differently, quite often better, than you did. My son processes things with deep empathy. My daughter errs toward logic and reasoned argument. More than a few occasions, I'm stuck thinking "dammit, they're right" and find myself demonstrating the act of apologizing. That's a humbling experience.

[0] This was a wet indoor rink and though I could handle myself OK on outdoor lake ice and was very proficient with inlines on cement or gravel.

[1] My gaming days are behind me, frankly.

[2] My Dad, who was -- in every way -- a stereotypical "He-Man" is exactly the same way.

uhtred• 2 years ago

This is like LinkedIn content not hackernews.

Def_Os• 2 years ago

Well written, and very recognizable. I felt pretty much the same as the author at the time of my firstborn. The second kid's birth I don't even remember, haha. I can say that 8 years later the love for the children and my partner has only deepened. Family life is unrelenting and exhausting at times, but I'm one of the lucky ones with a fabulous partner and healthy, smart and fun kids-- until the teenage years change the picture all over again, maybe?

The Surreal Magnificence of Fatherhood

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