Desktop Linux is an Untapped Gold Mine

https://gebna.gg/blog/desktop-linux-is-an-untapped-gold-mine

by skilled • 2 years ago

93 214 2 years ago

gebna.gg

RajT88• 2 years ago

2024 is the year of Linux on the Desktop!

zubairq• 2 years ago

Good article. To the author, why don't you do this yourself, I think it is a brilliant idea?

progx• 2 years ago

The problem is not only to make a desktop, nobody would implement it (NIH-Syndrom, thats why we have 12 karillion Linux Distributions), you have to ship your own distro.

55555• 2 years ago

tl;dr: Linux on Desktop could happen but isn't currently happening. The author recommends that you work to make it happen.

cranberryturkey• 2 years ago

I'm building a desktop app for mac/win/nix in tauri. Its pretty sweet although I'm not a big fan of rust so far. It's just weird.

chucke1992• 2 years ago

I have never used ChromeOS but isn't it basically a remote desktop?

shubb• 2 years ago

Originally you say it was a kind of kiosk operating system that ran a Web browser with Google apps deeply integrated to enable things like a little local file storage.

Some years ago, they enabled you to access a real local Linux operating system, and install and run arbitrary things.

I think but don't know that local Linux gives me a container or windows subsystem for Linux vibe.

It's sufficient to use a chrome book as a local dev machine, and I think googlers do that daily.

reportgunner2• 2 years ago

It was a weird kinda locked down linux with some google proprietary stuff last time I touched it, about 3 years ago.

mike_hock3• 2 years ago

1. Dear author, I think Linux probably just isn't for you.

2. We probably don't want the author's concept of "Linux winning" to come true.

rigelbm2• 2 years ago

Sincerely,

The Gatekeeper.

mike_hock3• 2 years ago

It's one of a billion of "Here's my proposal for improving Linux: Make it like Windows!" articles that keep getting written, and have been written for 20+ years now.

everdrive2• 2 years ago

Do you believe this is "gate-keeping?" If so, is gate-keeping universally bad?

donmcronald• 2 years ago

Microsoft is doing a good job of leveraging MS365 to make sure Linux isn’t an option for business users.

Besides that, desktop Linux frustrates me in some way every time I try it and I’ve been trying since you could get it on floppy disks. The last few years it’s been display scaling. I swear every Linux developer on the planet must be using 1080p screens because the display scaling sucks. Maybe I’m just unlucky, but the settings panel (in Debian and Ubuntu) is always flaky and the fractional scaling might as well not exist.

tomaytotomato2• 2 years ago

Yea I know your pain when it comes to display scaling on a 3840x2160 monitor.

I use Kubuntu and found that if you set display scaling you need to restart to properly have the settings take effect. I normally have it at 150% scaling

bmitc5• 2 years ago

Agreed. 100% or 200% scaling only is unusable for almost all modern monitors at their top resolution.

ur-whale5• 2 years ago

desktop Linux frustrates me

Yes, there are unresolved issues, and that's not going away

But consider the alternatives:

    1) ads in your menu bar an a pc that calls home to Redmond every 10s

    2) a pretty candy-themed adventure in la-la land that you pay through the nose for and where, like in the fabled Hotel California [1], you can never leave.

I'll take the minor annoyances every day of the week.

[1] https://genius.com/Eagles-hotel-california-lyrics

lukan2• 2 years ago

"Yes, there are unresolved issues, and that's not going away"

Why?!?

It is totally possible to get rid of those "minor annoyances". Some obscure driver bug, yeah, those are hard as there are millions of different devices and combinations. But UI scaling and other pain points like consistent UI and UX? That can be solved and it would make life on linux easier for everyone who is not comfortable with the terminal - which is the vast majority of humanity.

zaptrem• 2 years ago

As a happy citizen of la-la land, what am I missing with desktop Linux (I use server Linux daily for ML and dev stuff) that’s worth all of the significant drawbacks that come with leaving la-la land?

theanonymousone• 2 years ago

I'll take the minor annoyances every day of the week.

Maybe some Linux decision makers share this mindset with you, and that's why we are where we are:)

fourfour32• 2 years ago

I'm really surprised by this - I use Arch (btw) with KDE Plasma (5 and 6) and I've been using 150% on a 4K monitor for a long time and it has worked very well. Modern Qt apps work fine, browsers too.

I find the GTK side of things a lot flakier, though.

dcminter2• 2 years ago

I had trouble with it, but when Ubuntu Wayland support appeared it pretty much solved the problem. Curious as to whether the parent post tried before or after that switch over. Prior to Ubuntu+Wayland it really was unusably bad with mixed screen resolutions for me.

jrepinc3• 2 years ago

Same here, using KDE Plasma + Wayland on openSUSE Tumbleweed and AMD GPU and have no problems with 3 monitors all set to different fractional DPIs. No complaints for a long time. But yeah had lots of problems in GNOME or other GTK desktops. Not just with fractional DPI but by multi-monitor support in general.

sprinkly-dust• 2 years ago

I agree with you on the repeated frustrations of Desktop Linux. I'm not aware of your experience but personally, I've hopped from Distro to Distro and DE to WM to DE for years and I've come back to Pop!_OS as the choice for my own and friend / family laptops and desktops.

They seem to give me the fewest frustrations in setup and compatibility with all sorts of hardware from Nvidia GPUs to Realtek WiFi and Bluetooth Chipsets.

Their development team is also actively working on a replacement to GNOME that has actual HDR and scaling support. Right now, Pop!_OS is the only one that has given me a decent scaling experience with 3840x2160, even with fractional scaling. I've yet to try their (system76) own hardware but I'm already finding it quite decent for people testing the waters and jumping ship from Microsoft Spyware while not willing to break the bank on the newer Macs (though the M1 Air is still excellent).

Nevertheless, we ought to keep in mind that every new year is the 'Year of Desktop Linux'.

lawn• 2 years ago

I've had an xorg-config with 125% scaling for almost a decade and it works well.

This is on Void Linux.

pasc1878• 2 years ago

Office has always been the reason to buy Windows since Windows 2, especially for organizations.

Without Office Windows and MS would not be the leading OS and large company.

ramon156• 2 years ago

As of this month, fedora has been perfect for me. I run a 980ti so often times fedora bugged my screens out, or simply resorted to basic drivers. Really enjoying it now though!

rob742• 2 years ago

I swear every Linux developer on the planet must be using 1080p screens because the display scaling sucks.

Or 43" 4K screens, which don't need display scaling either...

1GZ0• 2 years ago

I think the quote from Linus is spot on.

"Linux fanboys have ruined it’s (Linux's) image. Most of them take pride in doing simple things in an over complicated manner and wonder why people won’t switch."

(Couldn't find the source, Linus might not have said this)

alurm• 2 years ago

Pretty sure it's fake.

akdor1154• 2 years ago

Canonical could literally have made it happen if they had kept their great product focus on desktop users..

Don't know how much of their failure to do so is the need for a business model, vs. just crap decisions.

qp11• 2 years ago

Its not their fault.

They are competing against large roving armies of pure scum at Microsoft, who land up at the door of whichever large corp or govt org that decide to switch, with unmatchable discounts, freebies, bribes, lies and threats to ensure their rent collecting empire is defended at all cost.

The reason Microsoft wins much more than tech is related to tactics used in sales, financial engineering, demand engineering(PR/marketing/advertising) etc.

The EU looked like it was going to do something about the Desktop Market by targeting Microsoft Desktop domination specifically with the Digital Markets Act but what they ended up with some weakass shit about allowing people to uninstall some of the preinstalled apps Microsoft ships.

If Big Tech has to be disintermediated the first step is to understand there is lot more going on outside the realm of Tech that needs to be disintermediated. And a pure one dimensional technology based approach has no chance of making a dent.

everdrive2• 2 years ago

Microsoft, who land up at the door of whichever large corp or govt org that decide to switch, with unmatchable discounts, freebies, bribes, lies and threats to ensure their rent collecting empire is defended at all cost.

I'm relatively new to the industry, but we just saw the exact pattern in our switch from Splunk to Sentinel. A massive discount, and a severely inferior product.

gotbeans4• 2 years ago

IMHO having a good desktop linux distro (or a proper desktop linux experience) doesn't have to correlate to a gold mine, and I'm not sure why the author conflates the two.

If the linux desktop space is advancing so slowly is precisely and because of the opposite: because desktop linux is made and maintained by a bunch of people who do it for free.

Alas, valve has done a pretty good job with proton and steamdeck which is helping the ecosystem. here's to hoping wayland and nvidia drivers 555 with explicit sync[1] we might get something decent next few months.

https://zamundaaa.github.io/wayland/2024/04/05/explicit-sync...

rigelbm2• 2 years ago

You answered your own question. I don't want my great-grand-children to be the first to have a great Linux Desktop. Ideally, I would like to have it now. Unfortunately, as things go in capitalism, the easiest way to accelerate development of something is with money.

gotbeans4• 2 years ago

Where's the incentive in any of that? Pour money in linux desktop development for what? (So we can have linux desktop... sooner?)

If there were any money to be made in linux desktop, it would have already happened imo, or otherwise the cost-opportunity is still to high.

If anything, more than a gold mine, looks like a gold sink to me

And don't get me wrong, been on arch for 7 years and i've long since ditched win. But I still don't think there's any meaningful incentives for companies to push for linux desktop.

DavidPiper• 2 years ago

I like a lot of this article, and broadly agree that Linux Desktop _could_ take off in a bigger way if people like me and you started putting open source developer time into making good apps for it.

However, I think the author vastly overestimates the current state of the art by conflating Andriod and ChromeOS with Linux.

Yes these are technically Linux distros, but their entire environment is build on a stack (JVM or Web) whose purpose is to make the fact that it's a Linux distro as irrelevant as possible.

A world where JVM GUI apps or Web apps rule the desktop market is not quite the same thing as "Desktop Linux" taking off. However, web apps ruling the desktop market does have the interesting side-effect that it makes the barrier to using Linux a lot lower than it was in the past, so there's that. The fact that it implies "Desktop" is dying doesn't help, though.

Barrin92• 2 years ago

whose purpose is to make the fact that it's a Linux distro as irrelevant as possible

That's exactly how it should be. To most users noticing what operating system they're on means something has gone wrong, because what they care about is run software, they don't care what OS they're on, and they shouldn't. I want Linux to win because it's open source, not because so enthusiasts with penguin t-shirts can declare a sort of Sid Meier's Civilization's cultural victory. Android and ChromeOS to that end have done a fantastic job, as has the SteamDeck, because it simply works.

Dalewyn• 2 years ago

However, I think the author vastly overestimates the current state of the art by conflating Andriod and ChromeOS with Linux.
Yes these are technically Linux distros, but their entire environment is build on a stack (JVM or Web) whose purpose is to make the fact that it's a Linux distro as irrelevant as possible.

When the most successful consumer Linux distros are the ones that try to be as not-Linux as humanely possible, maybe the problem lies somewhere that many do not want to admit?

gotbeans4• 2 years ago

Linux is a massive foot-gun in the hands of someone random, it is built with certain assumptions in mind that don't bode well with how companies want to ship you stuff, and how they envision to "keep you safe".

Of course if a company wants to ship you something linux-based is going to be brutally adultetred, or otherwise you might even be able to really own the thing and do whatever you want with it, which is very much the opposite companies want when they sell you something.

scheeseman48613• 2 years ago

ChromeOS is clearly making moves to being more than just a frontend for Chrome with PWAs and an Android subsystem people only use under duress. Google wouldn't have added support for Linux applications and Steam if they wanted to keep it like it was.

tomaytotomato2• 2 years ago

Until you get some sort of grass roots movement or large shift from Windows or MacOS, Linux desktop shells will always be niche for the foreseeable future.

ur-whale5• 2 years ago

Linux desktop shells will always be niche for the foreseeable future.

Which is not necessarily a bad thing: like every social escape hatch on the planet, the moment it becomes mainstream, it'll likely cease t be an escape hatch and start to become bastardized and unusable for users that don't fit the lowest common denominator profile.

adamomada• 2 years ago

I keep thinking the Windows 10 EOL in 2025 is it.

Some sort of large ad buy by IBM promoting Fedora as an alternative to your computer going to the garbage.

AnthonyMouse2• 2 years ago

The two are in conflict:

This one really annoyed me. I mean. Canonical knows for a fact that everyone is going to install these codecs anyway. Why not include them to save the end user some trouble ?
not be as scummy as Google, Apple, or Microsoft

People want the easiest possible thing, but Evil Corp wants the easiest possible thing to be the thing that screws you. The reason those codecs aren't installed by default is because of legal restrictions. "Just STFU and make it work" often involves requiring the user to agree to something which is bad for them, and putting at least a minimum amount of friction in the way of that is a good thing.

And it also puts the friction on other people. If the codec isn't installed by default and then someone else is using it, you will notice this instead of seamlessly using the proprietary one, and possibly complain to them and try to get them to use a free codec like AV1.

The cost, of course, is that it's a minor deterrent to adoption. But the endgame of valuing market share over principles is Microsoft.

donogh• 2 years ago

This minor deterrant to adoption scales up with lots of other minor deterrents. Users want "it just works" and that's the experience they get with Microsoft and Apple (however bad it is in other ways).

Desktop Linux must match or exceed that base level of experience if it wants to drive meaningful adoption.

Let's be practical: give users a brief explanation of the downsides before they make choices like installing proprietary codecs. Treat them like adults. Let them have an easier life in favor of getting them on board.

AnthonyMouse2• 2 years ago

Users want "it just works" and that's the experience they get with Microsoft and Apple (however bad it is in other ways).

It isn't. With Apple they get "it works or it doesn't" which is crap when it doesn't, because you can't fix it and Apple won't. With Microsoft things are commonly broken, often by accident, and no easier to fix than installing codecs on Linux. But worse, with both of them, is when things are broken on purpose. Almost like Linux. Only not for your benefit, but for theirs, at your expense.

Which puts some lie to the notion that easier always wins. It isn't easier to use Windows, it's a mess of bad code and half of it is out to get you. People use Windows because they have to, or because it came on their computer when they bought it. If you want adoption you need to address that -- do something about the Windows-only apps. Get more Linux PCs into the stores.

Which are the things that are happening. Things that used to need Windows are now websites or mobile apps. Google's money got Chromebooks onto the store shelves. And if you include ChromeOS, Linux has gone from <1% market share in 2010 to now having as much desktop market share as Mac did back then. All of which at the expense of Microsoft, because now Mac has twice that much.

Being opinionated isn't the problem, it's a feature. The competition is opinionated too, but its opinion is that you're cattle to be milked.

barrotes5• 2 years ago

My parents (both over 80) daily use Linux Mint for a decade now. They don't know it, simply last time we bought them a PC I put it there, explained how to open the web browser, play solitaire/FreeCell/whatever other game they like, how to shut it down etc. I live in another city and I almost never had to adjust anything there in all these years, differently on what happened when they had windows (they unknowingly installed a lot of spyware and bloatware, I had to clean it up periodically).

Still, for me this is one of the few experiments that went well, probably because the only "complex" need they have is a web browser. Now if a friend (not a technical one) needs a new computer advice I tell him to buy a second-hand MacBook and enjoy. No one ever complained (in fact all compliment me for the choice). The vast majority of users is not like my parents, has some specific needs, like they need Microsoft Office, or Photoshop, or they play on PC and still don't want to face the challenges you need to overcome if you want to do everything with Linux. I would never use MacOS on my PC (not because it's not good, just because I'm a FOSS maniac), but it's the perfect operating system for casual users and even for many power users. The only rule I adopt for OS advice is "avoid Windows unless you are actually forced to use it (gaming, specific legacy programs etc)".

bmitc5• 2 years ago

The only rule I adopt for OS advices is "avoid Windows

Why?

thriftwy• 2 years ago

VFAT patent enforcement was sufficient to declare a permanent personal vendetta against MS.

Needless to say MS did half dozen such things during the 00s.

danmur• 2 years ago

Heres a few:

* The UI is slow (compared to linux/gnome and osx).

* There are ads in it.

* There is a lot of unnecessary telemetry.

* Viruses, malware.

* No good first-party packaging solution.

* Real linux > WSL.

* I could go on.

barrotes5• 2 years ago

I use it on my "corporate job" PC because our architecture is based on .NET and we are still forced to adopt it (at least until we'll definitely pass to .NET Core becoming a bit more agnostic). All I can say is that it's... overwhemingly slow... and it gets progressively slower while times goes on. Every time I install something new that I need it occupies more RAM and I'm forced to control it periodically opening the task manager and killing tray bar processes. People can say "well you could be more careful while installing stuff" but the point is that I am. Moreover the majority of times I need stuff I let the corporate sysadmins to install it on my machine. Options to avoid programs being invasive are hidden, you need to search everywhere to understand how to, let's say, avoid Microsoft Teams to load on OS boot. Someone should explain to me how it's possible that my forklift notebook is a T450 with a 9 years old 15W TDP i5 CPU with Arch Linux installed, and Firefox opens in 2 seconds, and my corporate PC is a fucking stove with a 45W i7 recent CPU and Firefox needs at least 10 seconds to open. And if I, a self-considered kind-of-technical dude, have issues in keeping a work computer clean (so without any game or "casual" program installed), imagine what happens to my less-skilled friend who likes games and needs cracked Photoshop: he will inexorably seek for help from me after things go progressively bad. It happened few months ago with a friend. I took his old T450 (another one) I made him buy to have a PC (now it's my second debian server). Now he has a second-hand MacBook and he's never been so happy. Can't be sure that MacOS actually works better because I avoid it too, but at least people are happy and (I assume) tries to solve their eventual problems alone.

aniviacat• 2 years ago

Windows is a lot slower than linux, and poses significant hardware requirements. Many people will have to / already have replaced their system in order to be able to run Windows 11. (Windows 11 doesn't even support first gen Ryzen CPUs.)

Linux usually supports hardware for a very long time.

Since (for whatever reason) Microsoft hasn't figured out how to make its store actually useable, Windows users have to download (most of) their apps via the browser. That's not just a lot of effort, it also vastly increases the amount of adware/malware non-technical people download and install.

On linux, installing apps is a breeze; the stores are actually good.

Disk encryption hasn't been an option on (non-pro) Windows until very recently. This means someone who steals your laptop has access to all the data stored on the device.

Linux supported disk encryption since forever.

I could go on. Windows is lacking in various ways.

The only benefit Windows enjoys is being the most used operating system. It is therefore more likely that you're already familiar with Windows and that that specific app you want to use or your employer wants you to use runs only on Windows. (Most notably: Adobe Software, MS Office Software, Video Games.)

The core benefit of using Windows is not even a part of Windows.

kstenerud• 2 years ago

Oh god, Windows is a maintenance nightmare!

Every time I'd speak to some relative, the conversation would invariably turn to "Can you do something about my computer? It's so slow!"

And then I'd go take a look and find it riddled with spyware and bloatware and a thousand million processes running in the background that actively try to undermine uninstalling this garbage. I mean, why the hell does a MOUSE DRIVER require 2GB of space??? And the virus scanners - these are the worst offenders of all!

Linux is a smaller market with fewer threat actors. It's not being pushed into an advertising platform. It runs everything that 90% of computer users want. I can trust most distributions to keep things light and snappy.

It's just no contest when it comes to non-tech-savvy people. Linux makes it all so much better once you get it going. I wouldn't install it on someone's laptop, though (unless the laptop was specifically designed for it). If they want a laptop, macbook.

monsieurbanana• 2 years ago

Agree on all points, except regarding games. Via Steam and Proton, gaming on Linux is now better than Mac.

barrotes5• 2 years ago

I'm not up on gaming on Linux because I'm not a gamer (in last 12 months I played no more than 10 hours for that Stellantis game I found on Steam because it's natively compatible with Linux, and never tried emulation/whatever in last decade), so I guess you're right. But usually the need for advanced games is one of the (few) reasons that I consider enough to "allow" a friend to install Windows instead of going for MacOS. Anyway I'll try to catch up a bit about the state of the art of Linux gaming, just to give an alternative to anyone that seeks for any kind of help in that.

gryn2• 2 years ago

The gaming part is still windows. With all these kernel level access rootkit anti-cheat games, online games are a pain

graemep• 2 years ago

Linux is more of a nuisance to set up, although that can be mitigated by buying hardware with Linux pre-installed. I just did (although I ended up reinstalling because I changed my mind about what distro I wanted).

Once installed it is a lot less troublesome.

I think there are a lot of users like your parents than you think. I think you are right about artists using Photoshop, and gamers wanting the full range of games, but I know Windows small business users who use LibreOffice. A lot of my clients use MS Office, Teams and other MS stuff and I have no problems working with them.

barrotes5• 2 years ago

I think that for the "casual user" distros (like Mint) the set up problem is not an issue if you can choose the PC before. For eventual friends that want Linux I always tell them to find a second-hand T-series ThinkPad. They have a fairly large second-hand market where you can buy one for even 200/300€, they are solid laptops (at least the old generations...), they fully support Linux. Sometimes someone arrives with an old entry level laptop that "doesn't work anymore" (translated: it suffers with Windows) and in those case it might happen that you need to to some tricks to make everything work, but these are usually just post-installation procedures, nothing to worry about after everything is set up.

Mo3• 2 years ago

I mean... nuisance... maybe 10 years ago or if you try to install Arch from source, but nowadays the big distros all have very nice and beginner friendly installers. Totally on par with Windows, if not even more user friendly because you don't have to deal with forced logins and navigating dark patterns.

lynguist• 2 years ago

Same, same. My sister uses the same Ubuntu LTS laptop with Google Chrome since 2013. Has only issues with Word documents and printing, and she also found she can’t backup her iPhone to the computer. Besides that nothing.

She still uses it, does the dist upgrade and never changed anything or broke anything for the past 11 years.

And I also disagree with the article. I bought a new laptop in 2011, installed Windows 8 on it and used it semi-regularly until 2019, I also never upgraded from Windows 8. I also had no issues at all. I only have computer issues if for example corporate manages my laptop.

DEADMINCE19• 2 years ago

I think it's weird/lucky that you had such luck recommending macs - most of my non-technical friends just find them confusing and unintuitive, and it's not because they were only used to windows or something.

As for Linux just working untouched...doesn't mean it doesn't have problems or is secure. I've seen plenty of older people use their browser fine after not running updates for years.

cykros• 2 years ago

Been on Slackware for over a decade, other linuxen for decades since 2000. Did end up getting a Windows laptop for power usage of Excel, which it's the only thing that'll run, but otherwise don't know why anyone puts up with all the BS that comes with it as a primary system. I'm far too lazy for all that.

rldjbpin• 2 years ago

I had similar luck with another flavor of the distro. but things get complicated with handling files, like opening word files.

I had to switch out due to display drivers, anti-cheat and specific professional applications. we need more work on desktop use in linux just like there is attention to detail on linux for servers and windows/macos for desktop use.

aa-jv• 2 years ago

The thing about Linux is that it is such a delightful, vibrant and flourishing development environment. There are so many great ways to get an application built for that environment, packaged up, and in the hands of masses of users.

Its not just about the Desktop. There are plenty of window managers with the requisite desktop functionality.

Its also about having the applications users need.

Personally, I'd love to spend the next 10 years building on Linux apps. Its an opportunity for some great advances to be made. I'd focus on multimedia and audio apps, personally. The environment is so conducive to creativity.

ur-whale5• 2 years ago

" I don’t want the future of the Linux desktop to be some locked down spyware-ridden bastardized version of Linux like Chrome OS."

Hear hear.

As a matter of fact, this is a pretty accurate description of every major OS in 2024 except Linux.

dcminter2• 2 years ago

The author declares that...

"All a company needs to do is provide a homogenous/coherent user experience, smooth the rough edges, and not be as scummy as Google, Apple, or Microsoft and they will win."

... but as far as I can see that's Canonical and they're a long way from owning the desktop. Snaps, which the author lauds, are their thing! The author laments that Ubuntu didn't install the media codecs, but they have a panel during install asking if you want to install commercial stuff including such things. That could be more prominent, admittedly.

The real problem is that there's just so much commercial software out there and most of it runs on Windows or (often rather grudgingly) on Mac. It's been an issue for decades.

Back in the mid 90s I was working with "Windows for Workgroups" at the same time as messing with Linux. Linux was enormously superior at that point; pre-emptive multi-tasking, memory protection, high quality scheduling, and an excellent networking stack versus a very clunky OS balanced precariously on top of DOS.

But Linux didn't have Microsoft Word, it didn't have Excel, it didn't come pre-installed if you bought a PC, and it couldn't run MS DOS software. Windows won, and once Windows NT was out it was a much more even race even on the technical qualities.

The best thing that ever happened to desktop Linux was the commercialisation of the web, because it effectively made a huge swathe of important software usable on Linux. This is sufficiently the case that I've been able to use Linux (usually Ubuntu) at work for several of my recent gigs, but I still can't use it at my current day job (for example) because the miscellany of Data Loss Prevention software doesn't run on it but does run on Windows or MacOS.

I'm not sure Linux will ever "win" the desktop, though the share of desktop might increase in proportion to the dwindling of that market versus mobile devices.

rurban• 2 years ago

... but as far as I can see that's Canonical and they're a long way from owning the desktop

So far I see Redhat owns GNOME and all the base systems, and they already do own the linux desktop. Good so.

linguae• 2 years ago

Yup. I recently read a fascinating article about Apple selling a Mac emulator (similar in usage to the open source Basilisk and SheepShaver emulators) for Solaris back in the mid-1990s. There actually was a market for Unix workstation users who needed access to proprietary software packages that only ran on Windows or Mac OS. Even though Unix ran circles around DOS-based Windows and the classic Mac in terms of stability and power, Unix users still needed to be able to collaborate with their Windows- and Mac-using colleagues.

Come to think of it, this also reminds me of why certain Lisp machine vendors such as Texas Instruments and Symbolics made Lisp machine expansion cards for Macs: this provided Lisp machine users the opportunity to use desktop software tools without having to buy two physically separate computers, a very expensive purchase in the early 1990s. (While I’m on the topic, even Apple shipped some Mac models with expansion cards that had x86 chips for the purpose of running DOS and Windows).

talhah• 2 years ago

I can see the guys at System76 filling in this gap. They have excellent hardware and their own PopOS is really user friendly for newcomers. Gaming support is also pretty decent paired with Steams Proton.

The problem with onboarding people to use Linux is like trying to convince an iPhone user to use an Android device. Many people are stuck in their respective ecosystem and are used to familiarity, they're not going to switch to linux unless you can get over the burden of switching.

In my anecdotal experience, I installed Linux for a teacher of mine and he had some issues with getting used to it but his kids quickly figured it out and weren't used to Windows or MacOS which made it significantly easier. Putting Linux computers in students hands is honestly the best way to increase adoption and Chromebooks are a perfect example of this.

thepuppet33r• 2 years ago

Has System76's hardware improved in the last few years? I bought a Gazelle 15 during the pandemic, and it has been the worst computer I've ever had. Display issues, overheating, keyboard dies at random, monitor has an increasing number of dead pixels (had several on arrival from manufacturer), had to have an entire motherboard replacement because the power port stopped being able to hold the power cable after just a couple of months and it refused to fully boot without being plugged in (despite having a battery), the battery life is a joke (less than two hours even on low performance mode), the whole case is cheap plastic, the video card will occasionally just not be recognized by the firmware and will only allow me to use the integrated graphics, and so on.

I spent weeks working with System76 support and they tried their best, but the laptop is just a piece of junk, especially for the two grand price point. My next purchase will probably be an ASUS laptop that I'll load either Popos or Linux Mint on.

benrutter2• 2 years ago

I have a Lemur and it's the best laptop I've had- great battery life, everything feels snappy and I haven't had a single issue. Bought it during lockdown as well though, so not much of an argument for their hardware improving.

enasterosophes2• 2 years ago

Desktop Linux is an untapped gold mine! All a company needs to do is provide a homogenous/coherent user experience, smooth the rough edges, and not be as scummy as Google, Apple, or Microsoft and they will win.

Ah, yes. Everything must be monetized.

Very well then, let us ask what is the business model for this monetized desktop Linux?

* People who already use Linux won't suddenly decide to start paying money for support that they never relied on before.

* People who were never into Linux before aren't going to suddenly start jumping ship just because they can choose to pay for a supported distro. Let's face it, most people don't like spending their time thinking about what OS to run, and maybe that's even healthier, since the more I learn about computing, the more I realize it all kind of sucks in one way or another.

* If the idea is sell proprietary software to people on Linux desktops, it's not impossible (as shown by success stories like Steam and Matlab.) However, it also needs to compete with the ecosystem of free software, as well as web-based apps which are inherently OS-agnostic, along with the pre-existing markets like Steam.

* Before our glasses get too rose-tinted, let's remember that although Linux works fine on desktop, it's not easy. You either need to go the Ubuntu route of being opinionated and one-size-fits-all, or you need to accept that the flexibility of Linux makes support difficult. I've been using Linux exclusively for 15 years, so I'm used to fiddling with all the knobs required to keep it ticking over smoothly. I would thoroughly resent any pressure anyone would put on me to change the way I do things. On the other hand, I would never suggest to a newbie that they should try doing things the same way as me. In fact, I advise against it. "Kids, just try ubuntu first. If you like it, great. Come and talk to me again when you're sure you really want to be a weirdo."

sspiff• 2 years ago

Agreed. One of the reasons I use Linux and other open source software, is not to be dependent or beholden to a single company. I can't count the amount of times I experienced or read about others experiencing a company doing a rug pull on users of their software by either changing direction, abandoning the product, or changing licensing terms.

I do donate monthly to a number of open source projects because I like their work, and want them to stick around. But even if they don't, as long as the software is there and the user base is there, someone will pick up the baton and move it forward, even if it is at a slow pace.

gotbeans4• 2 years ago

Ah, yes. Everything must be monetized. Very well then, let us ask what is the business model for this monetized desktop Linux?

On point. Not every (sound) technical decision is monetizable.

The article completely handwaves that "gold mine" statement.

Sankozi2• 2 years ago

You forgot about people who used Linux and were put off by all that maintenance work required to have updated and stable environment. I would gladly pay subscription for a stable Linux desktop experience.

I am currently using Windows, hate it, but I know that I can update it and be almost certain that it will work tomorrow.

enasterosophes2• 2 years ago

I understand what you're saying, although my experience with Windows was the opposite.

I would have had much less motivation to switch from Windows to Linux all those years ago if I could rely on Windows to just work. Except for some brief optimism surrounding Windows 7, nothing I've heard in the intervening 15 years makes me think that Windows is more stable than it used to be.

I'm not sure what Linux you tried before, but your mention of requiring an updated and stable environment without much work makes me suspect that you never tried a rolling-release distro. Or maybe you did, but didn't update often enough? I've tried a few different rolling release distros, and invariably find that they remain both stable and bleeding-edge so long as you remember to regularly give them a quick update. That way, if there is something wrong with one package, it's easy to identify what changed and roll it back for a bit, and it won't affect everything else in a systemic way.

surgical_fire2• 2 years ago

Ironically, I had to do more tinkering to keep Windows running smoothly over the years than I had to do on Linux in the two years since I switched over.

prmoustache2• 2 years ago

Nobody prevents you to use RHEL and/or paying someone to remotely manage your personnal computer.

Windows or MacOS aren't any more managed/stable.

pjc50• 2 years ago

The one set of people that have made monetized desktop Linux work are Valve. And that's because, like Apple, they provide a vertically integrated solution. They sell the hardware and the software that people want to run, with Linux on Steam Deck sitting as a little slice in the middle that isn't directly monetized.

drdo• 2 years ago

I used Linux on personal machines for decades but recently switched to Mac because I no longer have the patience to deal with the constant jank (and these M1/2/3 macbooks are so good).

I would pay for nice vertically integrated Linux laptop where everything works well and I don't have to deal with numerous small problems that amount to a suboptimal experience.

solarized• 2 years ago

The hardest thing to solve here is standardizing the ecosystem of freedom. What's "lovely" about this ecosystem is that nobody cares and nobody tells you how to run your desktops. Want something lightweight? Go with TinyCore or Puppy. Into gaming? Check out SteamOS. Home theater? Use Kodi. Focused on security? Kali is the way to go.

I even built my own distros for my product to automate endoscopy machine interfaces. You can build whatever you want to solve whatever problems you have.

Trying to solve this problem is like merging all the transcontinental countries into one union called USSR.

I really admire any billionaire or community that continues Mark Shuttleworth's effort to raise awareness about Linux desktops.

vegabook• 2 years ago

"To fix this fragmentation of package formats, two new formats have been introduced...Snap and Flatpak"

The Nix package manager trounces these two options utterly and completely for anything that's not GUI-based, and even for desktop software if you're prepared to go all-in with NixOS.

IshKebab• 2 years ago

Yeah and if you're prepared to spend a serious amount of time learning Nix. Which kind of counts it out from "the year of the Linux desktop".

frithsun• 2 years ago

I got a Windows computer for my six year old because we have to have Roblox and Roblox Studio.

I was stunned by how much clutter, hassle, and adware I had to fight through just to achieve a simplisticity I take for granted with a standard Linux install.

With the tsunami of AI clutter coming for Windows, I suspect desktop linux will finally, after all these decades, have its day.

sthuck• 2 years ago

Linux desktop efforts need a BDFL.

Too many duplicated efforts, the wayland migration while needed was a complete mess, and actually the worst time I had using Linux since like 2005. This kind of complete breakage of user experience is unimaginable even in MacOS and it's hostile approach to power users.

I think otherwise it's going to continue being a frustrating two steps forward one step back.

benreesman• 2 years ago

I’m a long-time advocate of using the best appliance (a Mac) to connect to a “real computer” (a linux-x86_64 build with an NVIDIA card in it).

But the times are changing and paradoxically I have almost the opposite view in 2024 vs 2021.

Desktop Linux can render fonts really well now, you can generally play audio now, ditto 802.11 and BlueTooth and damn the drivers are just good now.

Conversely Apple gear is becoming a pretty credible threat as an on-tile HBM accelerator platform, and while I’m sick unto the death of getting my damned window border radius to me by people other than Steve Jobs himself, I want a Studio on my desk or a Pro sled in the closet, the Sillicon is just too good to ignore now, and the MLX people aren’t sleeping.

I care a lot about darwin-aarch64 now, and could give a fuck less about a windowing system worse than Windows.

jillesvangurp• 2 years ago

I've had a slowish laptop (intel gpu) with Manjaro (Arch derivative) and Steam for a few years now. It's not my main laptop but I fire it up once or twice a week for some light gaming (I have some indie games that I like). It works great for that despite Intel performance not being great, obviously. Every few weeks I use the Manjaro settings tool to update the kernel to the latest and greatest. And of course I update packages regularly with a command line tool called yay.

I can't say it has been completely without issues. But so far I've been able to solve these issues. And this doesn't happen a lot. But probably not a great distribution for beginners as you are expected to solve problems on the command line. But if you know what you are doing, this is pretty nice and stable. I like having rolling updates and not missing out on all the latest stuff.

Having Steam means that Windows is now optional for gaming. You don't need it for most games. They'll work fine on Linux. There are exceptions of course but mostly everything I have just works fine. And between Mac and Linux, I just have no patience for the dreary experience that is Windows.

Most other work stuff you can get via snap/flatpak (I use both). IMHO both need work but software availability is pretty good. But for things I care about, I tend to install them manually anyway so I don't have any middlemen to deal with between me and the software project. E.g. Firefox can update itself if you just install the tar ball from them. Works great.

With most linux distributions, the main differentiators seem to be the amount of effort they do to have users needing to use a terminal window with various degrees of success. With most Linux distributions, you'll find yourself needing a terminal window sooner or later.

fr4nkr• 2 years ago

While there are technical differences between Snap and Flatpak, the gist is the same. Offer a sandboxed, isolated, and universal package format for Linux. Universal package formats are an overall win in my opinion. And make Linux feel a little bit more like one operating system. Still, they are now yet another choice that the developer needs to make when distributing their software on Linux.

Someone has yet to explain to me how the Linux desktop is supposed to just agree on a universal standard for everything without a proprietary ecosystem, at which point it would just be a shittier Windows. And that's not even touching on the fact that alternatives often exist for valid reasons, i.e. Pipewire being obviously better than Pulse, which used to be a de facto standard. Or the fact that some companies like Bitwig have already demonstrated that commercial Linux software via Flatpak is viable - Adobe simply does not care, and they never will.

The irony of Windows users sharing their opinions on the Linux desktop is that they often sound how they picture existing Linux desktop users: people who treat their computers as toys. We're fully aware that using Linux has major caveats.

It's okay to just not like Linux, man. Nobody is forcing you to.

cauch• 2 years ago

The same article was written billions of time in the past 20 years (at least).

Few thoughts:

- Popularity may imply things that are fundamentally incompatible with the way Linux works. Imagine Windows or Mac giving the possibility of fork, and of course, you will have seen plenty of "distributions" where people tried to fix all of these things that don't suit them, with a lot of hardware problems and software incompatibilities. The author says it himself: Windows 8 was the worst OS they used. So, if Windows 8 would have been forkable, of course plenty of parallel version trying to fix the problems would have appeared. Additionally, not sure forkability is compatible with some economic model such as "getting popular by doing a lot of adverts and costly initiative to win market share, paid by revenue we got by doing user-unfriendly-things (ads everywhere in the interface, capturing users, ...)"

- There are more brands of car or of dish-washing liquid than obviously-not-anecdotical Linux distributions. I'm still not sure why people are so confused about the number of distributions. Just do what you do when you buy a car or a dish-washing liquid bottle.

- Popularity does not really matter. As soon as there are incentives to not be ignored by hardware or software makers (and there is now for Linux, the amount of "compatible with Linux" is impressive when you think of the market share. Probably due to the fact that it is an important systems for some sectors and that Linux users are building bridges), then it does not matter at all to me if my neighbor is using Linux or not, it does not affect me in any way. I'm not sure I understand what is the point of being popular.

mrfinn• 2 years ago

I agree with his description of the Arch forums, I've been using them for years as a source of info for solving problems along those provided by Gentoo, and never felt in the mood to write anything there because the community seems pretty hostile towards any kind of ignorance while asking for help or even worst, in the very strongly enforced forum rules. Pity because Arch is really a great distro and provides a solid base for other distros as well. Maybe is not always like that but... Arch forums feel to me like highly elitist and unwelcoming with newcomers. Not even bugzilla.kernel.org feels like that.

andrewstuart• 2 years ago

Desktop operating systems take vast resource to be consistently behaved and presented.

And the strength of Linux is that it is the inverse of consistent…… it’s a bunch of stuff that works well together.

Function over form.

I’d never use a Google desktop os but I might use steam. Steam seems like the most likely desktop os contender, and they have the designers and the developers and the money to make it consistent. The problem is there’s no reason why they’d make a desktop Linux.

dash2• 2 years ago

This is all, and will forever be, a fantasy.

You cannot make a product without profit. Linux wins in the data centre because the corporations who make money off selling compute have commoditized their complement. "Linux" wins when it's Android because Google used Linux as a kernel for their offering - which IMHO is still worse than Apple but fine if you prefer Android. It's not open source, though, none of the apps people use on Android are open source, it's just a cheap software component. The Steam Deck, again, exists to sell closed source games.

I used Linux on the desktop for about 10 years. I left it and never looked back. I have a residual affection for the people who actually write open source. But the zealots, with their rants about evil corporations, their Boy Scout fantasies about running the digital economy on volunteer effort, their response to any criticism with "it works for me, you must be stupid/lying", their poor sod grandparents for whom they've kindly installed Arch ... those people are toxic and deserve to be laughed at.

any1• 2 years ago

Zealotry/enthusiasm tends to float to the top and is, perhaps, what you see on the surface when you look at any community.

However, I think that most users of open source software prefer it, not because of their political beliefs, but because of their curiosity. Open source software is made by the community for the community; not to entice outsiders or sell to any would-be customers. The main draw of open source software for a curious person is that they can look inside and tinker with it and they can modify it to conform to their needs.

Saying things like "I tried your software and it doesn't work for me" or "I left it and never looked back" (usually phrased in a less polite manner) doesn't really achieve anything constructive. An open source software developer isn't interested in that kind of "feedback". After all, they're not selling anything. They're just making software for their own needs and/or to satisfy their thirst for knowledge and understanding.

If you are not curious about the inner workings of software, then open source is not for you, and that's fine.

surgical_fire2• 2 years ago

I used Linux on the desktop for about 10 years. I left it and never looked back. I have a residual affection for the people who actually write open source. But the zealots, with their rants about evil corporations, their Boy Scout fantasies about running the digital economy on volunteer effort, their response to any criticism with "it works for me, you must be stupid/lying", their poor sod grandparents for whom they've kindly installed Arch ... those people are toxic and deserve to be laughed at.

Despite a lot of words written there, you don't mention which issues you had with Linux that made you switch away from it after 10 years.

I made the opposite route. Two years ago I switched to Linux (Linux Mint, to be more specific), and I couldn't be happier. Everything has been working like a charm, and I honestly have to do less tinkering around to keep things working than I used to on Windows (which I had basically to do a yearly fresh install).

Maybe it was your distro of choice?

prmoustache2• 2 years ago

Zealots aren't specific to one OS/community.

scheeseman48613• 2 years ago

I think Valve's combination of KDE, Flatpak and an immutable rootfs is the right combination (Kinoite also does this, but it plays second fiddle to the Silverblue which uses Gnome). ChromeOS has also been making moves towards becoming a proper Linux distro with their adoption of Wayland, separation of Chrome from the underlying OS, support for running native Linux applications and even Windows applications through Steam.

A lot of people scoff at getting Google involved, but if they put their weight behind Linux applications (or even Wine) then that could mean filling some of the gaps in software support. Adobe might not care about desktop Linux, but ChromeOS? It has widespread adoption in business and particularly education and given a native port, that means every Linux distribution could get access to it too.

Windows has stalled, they're throwing all their effort into AI features that customers don't want. It's a perfect time to make a move.

masfoobar2• 2 years ago

I am very happy on my GNU/Linux Debian distro.

Of course, at work, I use Windows. It is bloated. That is not an attack on the OS in general but the added fluff on top of it. I dont want it.. yet on next bootup I see co-pilot at the bottom right of my screen. Eff-off!

Remember -- software piracy is wrong... but I don't actually own it, either! I remember the old license agreements on Windows 95, etc.. I would not be surprised if Windows today is still based on "rights to use it" or similar.

I am not here saying distros like debian could replace windows. A lot of users comftable on Windows will struggle to change. A number of alternative software is a learning curve.. even if it is just as good (or better) than what is used on Windows. We also have IT departments who have to relearn... login system, security, etc, especially if their world is windows-focused.

My wife uses Linux. My eldest child uses Linux. They have no issue. Of course, there may come a time when my eldest needs a peice of software that is Windows only.. but will get to that when I have to (and possible alternatives) -- but I am also a realist... if a child has a specific need (especially a career-based one) then I will install Windows if there really is nothing else.

I would like to properly see the "year of gnu/linux" but despite Microsoft making poor decision with Windows, it will still have things a Linux distro wont... with added budgets at the forefront with PR, legal, marketing.. and all the other departments it has!

Big Companies will also "buy microsoft" for the support whether they think it is good or not.. it is a safety net for job security.

tasuki• 2 years ago

Of course, at work, I use Windows.

That's not "of course" at all! I've used Linux on my laptop in all of my last four jobs. Five jobs ago I had two computers and one of them was mandated to have Windows...

masfoobar2• 2 years ago

It is for me -- all companies I work for (except one) during my career has been Windows.

red_admiral• 2 years ago

I have a Surface Pro that's just been telling me Win10 is soon coming to its end, and Win11 won't run on this device. I'm considering Linux Mint which is just fine for what I use that device for (mainly web browsing).

I guess part of the problem is if you commit to building a bazaar instead of a cathedral, there's some things (like majestic roofs that don't leak) which are harder to realize.

And then there's the bit where I'll be choosing Mint/MATE (if I don't go full XFCE) because something something GTK3 mumble Adwaita.

briffid• 2 years ago

I've been on and off Linux desktop for more than 25 years. I always gave it a chance, for home use and work use as well. And it always failed to prove it worth the effort. For home use it failed most miserably when it booted up with a black screen after a version update due to an already reported bug with the Nvidia driver, which no one cared to fix before release. Then struggled again for years with finding useful applications, even games, without success, so I gave up. For work use (as a software engineer) I tried to make myself productive on Linux, and yes I liked the terminal, and that was it. Everything else just sucked. Coming back from suspend e.g. was gambling. Multi-monitor usage sucked. PDF editor? Forget it. Productivity suite on desktop, OneDrive synchronization, DTP, Music - all half-baked, full of bugs and incompatibilities. Thank you, not any more. For a server, of course I'd use Linux. For a phone, of course. But for desktop, if 30 years was not enough to mature to something usable, I would stop hoping for seeing it as a gold mine. Always promised, always failed.

HeckFeck2• 2 years ago

I agree. Certain DEs and WMs are fun to play with, Void Linux is a fun minimal system to tinker with, Debian is perfect for a fire up and forget server but ultimately commercial software always has the polish and edge I need to get things done at home or for work.

I.e. Affinity vs GIMP, or MS Office vs LibreOffice, Sony Vegas vs whatever crashfest NLE I install on Linux.

So my current pattern is a neutered W10 LTSC for gaming and video editing complimented by a Macbook for work/coding/internet.

I will say that for my parents who just want a desktop with a web browser and basic word processing, Linux Mint + MATE is fine and much more predictable than Windows. I don't have to teach them everything from scratch every few months, as would be the case if they were on Windows and some PM rules that everything must be revolutionised again.

RevMen• 2 years ago

I've been giving Linux a chance every few years since the 90s. Last year I got a new Framework and decided to try again. I tried Fedora and Pop and I can say I'm here to stay. It's Pop's version of Gnome with the tiling manager that I love. Windows has nothing close to it.

I do a decent amount of work in pdfs and I'm surprised that's not good for you. If you're willing to pay for some software there are some really good options. I was using Acrobat before and I am more than happy now, not just because I'm no longer paying $15/mo.

I haven't had a hardware problem on Linux in a while. When was the last time you tried to install it? If you have modern hardware you might be pleased with that part of the experience now.

ffsm8• 2 years ago

Uh, windows has pretty great tiling builtin (albeit disabled by default) and it gets even better by installing Microsoft powerToys (FancyZones) .

It's not fully automated (or "dynamic") like i3/sway but works great. it's in many ways a lot better (i.e the preconfigured tiling setups you can quickly activate by hovering over the maximize buttons etc).

In other ways it's indeed worse, mainly because its not dynamic. But it's not just worse

ozzcer2• 2 years ago

Pop OS's keyboard experience is phenomenal as well. There's something incredibly intuitive about how easy it is to manage tiled windows + workspaces + accessing common apps with the keyboard shortcuts on popOS that I can't imagine working with anything else now.

blueflow• 2 years ago

Sometimes its just a tiny thing: systemd-login started to suspend machines per default from around 2015. This has resulted in countless "not working" Linux installs on all machines that have a buggy suspend. I literally could not run systemd GNU/Linux on my Acer Aspire because it would "crash" after some time.

brabel• 2 years ago

Coming back from suspend e.g. was gambling.

I can confirm. Using latest KUbuntu + KDE. It's very nice usually, but almost every time I do a major upgrade something breaks. Now, after suspend, the freaking keyboard is not detected. Like, at all. It thinks I am on a tablet, I believe, maybe because I have a touchscreen monitor. This only started after the latest upgrade, and I spent hours trying to fix it, to no avail :(.

And this is a laptop that came from factory with Ubuntu (Dell XPS13)!

Quite frustrating. I really like the KDE DE but because of this sort of problem (it has been touchpad problems and sound issues before) I am seriously considering something else, probably plain Ubuntu though I hate the defaults they come with nowadays.

user_agent• 2 years ago

I've only used Fedora for the last 3 years as my main OS but some things you've mentioned (which I consider important examples) are far better than you might think. What I know of that has been solved well:

- "Multi-monitor usage sucked" - GNOME with Tactile extension gives you basically what PowerToys doeas for managing windows in Windows which is the top productivity experience of what you can gat on the desktop in general. Better than anything on MacOS for instance. And zero issues with multi-monitor.

- NVIDIA drivers failing on updates - I dind't have a chance to experience that during the last 3 years and I use one of the worst GPU setups that are known to have stabilibty issues on Linux - a gaming laptop with 2 GPUs, Intel + Nvidia. | Moreover, the overall OS stability is top notch. If it's not a clever GNOME extension called Another Window Session Manager saves my work and all opened windows every couple minutes or so (a GNOME session can be revoked after restart).

- "Music (half backed)" - a free Strawberry music suite is one of the best you can get and if that is not enough you can buy Jriver which is one of the top 3 best music platforms in the world. Or host a Logitech Media Server in a docker container locally. Plenty of very good options. (I'm a hardcore audiphile myself).

"full of bugs and incompatibilities" - I wouldn't say that at all. I consider myself a kind of person that doesn't like even minor unnecessary issues in my life and if Linux wasn't good enough for me I would not use it. (With a disclaimer that the fact that there's nothing like Linux from the privacy and freedom standpoint I'm willing rarely to swallow an issue with it here and there to remain free person in the lengterm).
Linux might not be OK for content creators, though. Or people depending on a lot of niche software, etc. In that case do what I did and find alternatives. Before you start thinking about switching an OS! Apps are more important than the OS. To be honest I'm pretty sure that with what the future might bring regarding how major operating systems work (as hostile entities) one might want to consider alternatives now regardless of how inconvenient it might feel... Linux is fine. You'll make it work if you want to.

xtracto• 2 years ago

I use Linux in both my work and personal machine, and I fully agree with you. It's kind of painful. In my case I keep using it because I just cannot stand windows UI, and because I do a lot of work on docker/linux for servers, a d I prefer not to have a virtualization layer.

But yeah, sleep/wakeup never works properly, bluetooth connections are unstable and battery life is abysmal. Among others.

I wish Dell would make their own custom distro tailored to their hardware.

amelius• 2 years ago

A few days ago I had a bad experience installing sshfs on MacOS. On desktop Linux, this was so simple. I really don't understand how people can think that Linux is somehow less user friendly.

TheLoafOfBread2• 2 years ago

Desktop Linux can not be a goldmine from its nature and its userbase. People using Linux does not want to pay for anything and first thing which they will do is to fork your code and "release it" for free because of GPL.

When you have no chance to monetize it, how it can turn into a goldmine?

jrepinc3• 2 years ago

Fun fact, I spent more money on GNU/Linux and donations to FOSS projects then I ever have for Windows and its software. Why because it is just better more user respecting and is constantly improving, and the opposite is true for Microsoft and their malicious business practices and bad products that are getting worse by each release.

gebna2• 2 years ago

Google made money on Android. As long as you're not making direct changes to Kernel code, you're free to close source anything you add. The existence of AOSP didn't prevent the Playstore or google play service from making Google the sole controller of Android. That's how it turns into a goldmine.

TheLoafOfBread2• 2 years ago

Android is kind of pointless without phones it is running on, so having a code does not mean you have any use for it. Same for routers using Linux. Kind of pointless to have source code when you don't have the hardware.

rjakobsson• 2 years ago

elementaryOS seems to fit the feature description. Can anyone share their experience with it?

reportgunner2• 2 years ago

It's ok if you don't know how to install debian and pick a desktop environment or can't install mint mate for some reason.

gebna2• 2 years ago

I daily drove it. Mint + Cinnamon is more stable.

notorandit• 2 years ago

Running Linux on my main productivity PC since 2003

Mainly laptops, but also a couple of desktops.

It's not always been easy, especially before 2015-2016.

I tried Slackware, Gentoo, SuSE, Ubuntu and, finally, Arch Linux.

It is still not easy, but at least quite well documented.

To me everything works pretty well. Everything but a single thing.

Hw-accelerated WebRTC.

Almost all browsers are chromium-based. And Google supports hw-accelerated WebRTC only on Android and ChromeOS. I can imagine the latter (which is a browser centric OS), but why Android?

Firefox hw-accelerated seems not to work too.

My Linux box gets on its knees when doing Zoom/Teams/Meet/Slack with video on.

I think this is either intentional or simply stupid.

cess112• 2 years ago

I do a couple of hours in video conferencing a day on Linux and don't consider it particularly resource intensive. It's another service than those you mention plus one way video on Teams because they don't allow video in Firefox because they hate us all, but still, I think it's a WebRTC thing.

People on Windows seems to have more issues with performance than me.

poulpy1232• 2 years ago

There are actually several problems for desktop linux, or more exactly, for linux on the home computer.

Some are independent of linux itself: the lack of drivers, the lack of some very common software is external to whatever the linux devs (both linux the OS and linux the distributions). I would even say there are very good at compensating it, even if it is not sufficient.

Then there are the things that are linux dependant, such as the publication of software, the updates, the choice paralysis etc

kuschkufan• 2 years ago

lack of drivers, for what exactly? linux actually has tons of drivers for old like for new stuff.

on the other hand, i recently bought a new windows laptop and tried putting in a new bigger ssd and guess what; when trying to reinstall windows on that the setup program didn't even find that ssd. no, you had to get an extra driver from intel.com - embarrassing. linux comes with all drivers included.

poulpy1232• 2 years ago

Last time I installed linux on a personal PC was several years ago but it was a nightmare to install the wifi. I just checked a film scanner on my desk and it is impossible to be ran on linux without paying a 100€ third party software. On windows you may have to download the driver yourself, but at least you have one

1vuio0pswjnm72• 2 years ago

"The first obstacle you run into as a newcomer, is the ridiculous number of different operating systems that exist under the Linux umbrella. The Linux community loves to call them "distros" as a way to express that there are not many differences between them."

I have been trying various distributions over the years. Being someone who likes to compile software, and coming from BSD, I am still not into package managers. (Yes, I tried Gentoo.)

I have arrived at Frankenstein Linux. It's a hybrid of glibc/musl, various portable BSD stuff and custom text-processing utilities. Linux distributions contain multitudes of software I never use; I removed all of it. Every program is statically-linked, even GCC; I keep no libraries other than what comes with the compiler. There is also an area for running dynamically-linked binaries using a musl or glibc dynamic linker, when that need occasionally arises.

I am not a graphics person so Frankenstein Linux is command-line only, textmode. It's smaller than LFS but larger than Tinycore. In the process of creating and using it, I have discovered many interesting compilation-time and run-time facts about various software I use, stuff I see written about nowhere. Linux overall seems generally hyperfocused on binary packages. When in a rush, these can be convenient but I do not think I will ever prefer binary packages over software I compile myself. I am not a fan "package maintainers". I learn nothing about the software I use by choosing binary packages and these maintainers too often make compile-time choices I would never make myself.

supriyo-biswas• 2 years ago

In the process of creating and using it, I have discovered many interesting compilation-time and run-time facts about various software I use, stuff I see written about nowhere.

Doesn't the LFS documentation serve as an entry point for most of this stuff?

1vuio0pswjnm72• 2 years ago

For some people it might. But the problems I encounter when compiling software are not addressed in LFS. These problems are usually solved through reading the documentation from the software authors, if any, reading the source code and through experimentation, trial and error.

There is no single project that includes everything I need/want nor that excludes everything I don't want. Also LFS recommends only GNU software; I use some BSD versions of common utilities and other stuff. To me, LFS was one person's project to construct a userland for the Linux kernel according to his own preferences. In that tradition I am doing the same. His choices might seem "conventional" but they are choices and in fact can be varied considerably.

The interesting thing to me about LFS is that it predates all the projects people recommend today as "source-based" distributions or projects for building "embedded" systems. There are so many different choices and variations, enough for endless online debates over what some project "is" or "isn't" and which is better or worse. To me this simply represents the freedom that Linux, as a kernel-only alternative to BSD, allows to construct a userland any way one wants. Not according to some pre-ordained rules.

Compiling each item of userland software oneself, without using a third party's shell scripts and/or makefiles, leads to discoveries of all the author idiosyncracies and quirks that come with it. Some folks might not want to know. Others might discover some useful knowledge. Truthfully, I prefer to spend time learning about the compilation of the individual software rather than spend it learning how to use someone's automated system used to compile all of it in one go.

With BSD, it is easy to trim the userland down to only what one needs. Most of it is in one place, a single source tree. With Linux, I am doing the opposite, building the userland up from nothing. The resources are in various places, spread across the internet. In both cases, I am seeking to understand how the ssytem works.

tmtvl2• 2 years ago

I've been using GNU/Linux as my daily driver full time since 2012. It does everything I need: I can send and receive e-mails, LibreOffice works well enough for my needs, I can listen to music, watch videos, and play video games (I have an embarrassing total of over 1,000 hours in Fallout New Vegas and Dragon's Dogma combined).

But I recognise that my experience isn't universal and people who have specific needs should use the system that meets those needs.

benrutter2• 2 years ago

I think this line is really compelling:

Chrome OS is Linux based. Linus Torvalds, the creator of Linux said that Chromebooks might be the way Linux finally wins on Desktop.

I'd love it, but I don't see most non-techie people consciously adopting free software out principle. On the other hand, I reallh can't see how new platform developers like the people behind Android, Chrome OS and the Steam Deck wouldn't choose linux. It's there, customizable and works great.

From that angle, it seems like unless Windows or Apple continue to be the desktop platform of choice indefinitely, (i.e. there won't be any new desktop platforms) something linux based taking market share of the desktop at some point becomes inevitable.

subjectsigma• 2 years ago

I really wish there was a filter for HN articles. These threads are so useless, boring, and stupid. I feel like I could recite all the fanboy cliche from every major OS by heart at this point.

samyar• 2 years ago

Every post i read with the title "My first experience with Linux" starts with a breaking and an unpleasant experience. because nothing works/worked? I guess Linux distros should prove they work seamlessly. cause the Fedora i installed 1 year ago could not detect my monitor resolution. and i have to write a custom script to fix it. a very hard challenge event for me which is a programmer. i don't think normal users have the tolerance to bother stuff like this.

a lot of other stuff did not work too. and i don't think 1 year is enough time to fix them

account422• 2 years ago

Every post i read with the title "My first experience with Linux" starts with a breaking and an unpleasant experience.

That's just selection bias - the 99.9% of people without issues don't have any reason to publish a rant.

tmtvl2• 2 years ago

My first experience with GNU/Linux was back in 2012. I had just accidentally borked my Windows 7 install on my desktop PC by mucking with the registry and needed to reinstall.

Of course I had data on the machine which I wanted to keep, so I needed a way to get it off my desktop PC and onto my laptop. A quick internet search pointed me to using a Ubuntu live USB. Using it my desktop booted fine and I was able to back my data up with no problems.

Afterwards I reinstalled Windows 7 and tried to go on the internet. Which failed because I hadn't installed the ethernet driver yet. Remembering that the internet worked just fine under that Ubuntu thing I decided to install that instead. It worked fine, and I've been using GNU/Linux ever since. I, however, haven't used Ubuntu since the whole fracas around the Amazon lenses got me distro hopping until I landed on my current mainstays of OpenSUSE Tumbleweed and Arch.

simonblack• 2 years ago

I really love Linux Mint. I actually loved it so much that I kept using it for years.

Yeah, me too. I discovered recently that I had been using Linux Mint for 10-12 years. In 99.99* percent of cases, it just works out of the box. And it has all those proprietary codecs and other things that are a pain to add with many other distros.

As far as I'm concerned, Mint just works so don't try to fix it.

* I neglected to add a WiFi card to my desktop when I was customising the order from the Lenovo factory. I just threw a USB WiFi dongle into it without investigating what sort of weird chip it used. That means I just run a script to install a driver for it during installation of a fresh system. No biggie.

prakashn27• 2 years ago

I use popos based on Ubuntu.

Pros: - tiling support - workspaces - all Ubuntu apps

Desktop Linux is an Untapped Gold Mine

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