Microsoft Edge ignores user wishes, slurps tabs from Chrome without permission

https://www.theregister.com/2024/01/30/microsoft_edge_tabs/

by fauigerzigerk • 2 years ago

337 273 2 years ago

_cenw4• 2 years ago

This is unfortunately not new, I reported the same behavior here on HN 2 months ago, and how I uninstalled Edge via the new EU DMA update to keep it from sending my browser history (of any browser) to Microsoft, potentially, probably.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38430102

radiKal07• 2 years ago

No idea why you guys put up with this bullshit. I use Safari on macOS, it works great. I use Firefox on my Windows PC, it works great.

eimrine7• 2 years ago

Your jails are working as intended.

dotcoma4• 2 years ago

No one is free. Even the birds are chained to the sky.

— Bob Dylan

thimp6• 2 years ago

Better a Norwegian prison than a Soviet gulag.

ActionHank4• 2 years ago

Given MS being horribly anti-user these days, monetizing each user to be farmed like cattle and Apple's massive anti-consumer malicious compliance to any legal rulings, more people should be considering Linux.

It's fast. It respects the user. Games work beautifully with proton. Most software has an equivalent on Linux if they don't offer their own binaries.

More and more I don't understand the desire or need to generate revenue for companies that treat you like dumb cattle.

dotcoma4• 2 years ago

Not a SWE here.

Used Ubuntu from 2006 to 2011. It used to take some effort, compared to OSX.

But if we’re talking Linux vs Windows, I completely agree.

abirch• 2 years ago

I second a vote for Linux or Neverware. OMG I used Windows 11 yesterday to debug something. Efficiency mode sucks so bad. Chrome was unusable with it and there's no apparent way to disable it. I'm environmentally conscious but I'd club a baby penguin to disable Efficiency mode.

fletchowns2• 2 years ago

Games work beautifully with proton.

Most of the popular FPS games require anti-cheat software that does not work in Linux :(

thimp6• 2 years ago

Honestly I'd love to do this but I'm getting too old to argue with Linux on the desktop. The apps I want don't exist on the platform (Adobe mostly) and the high DPI and fractional scaling is a mess. On top of that the desktop user interface, whichever desktop you use is quite frankly terrible.

I'm just using a Mac as a terminal for an EC2 instance where I do all the software dev now.

zer00eyz2• 2 years ago

Given MS being horribly anti-user these days, monetizing each user to be farmed like cattle and Apple's massive anti-consumer malicious compliance to any legal rulings, more people should be considering Linux.

Apple is the farthest thing from "anti-consumer".

Let's find one company that takes security in any way shape or form as seriously. Name one company that consistently picks up the phone. What device are we going to give to my dad, or my less than stellar relatives... (do you want to be their linux support line?).

> More and more I don't understand the desire or need to generate revenue for companies that treat you like dumb cattle.

The apple tax: what your family gives to apple because they aren't going to pay you for support.

sunshinerag• 2 years ago

Completely agree on MS. Would not agree on Linux being friendly on the desktop. I find Apple to be the best for me on the desktop and also family. I use linux on servers, work ...

windowsrookie3• 2 years ago

I would like to use linux but every system I have ever installed it on, it eventually breaks. Then I have to spend several hours searching through forums trying to find the correct command line prompts to fix it.

This is even using the supposedly "reliable" distros like Ubuntu and Mint.

At this point when a linux user says they never have an issue I just can't believe them. I don't do anything complex, but linux always eventually fails in some way. I have above average knowledge of computers, and still linux cannot work reliably for me. It will never go mainstream until it can work without breaking, and never touching the terminal for 10+ years like MacOS can.

As an example, look at the "Switched to linux challenge" Linus Tech Tips did a couple years ago, he tried to install steam and it broke his entire OS. I have never installed anything on Windows or MacOS that has broken my OS. If you want regular users to use linux, things like that should not be possible.

dspillett2• 2 years ago

On this particular issue Firefox-on-windows is unlikely to be a solution. If they can and are doing it to Chrome on Windows they can to Firefox too. It might be more work as Edge doesn't share a codebase with Firefox like it does with Chrome, but unless FF is somehow encrypting everything in a way that blocks MS⁰ it won't be particularly difficult.

[0] Likely impossible. Even making it difficult enough to slow MS if they had the intention is likely completely impractical.

Dalewyn6• 2 years ago

Because I use computers to do things, and Windows is the right tool for the job in the vast majority of cases.

No, please don't suggest Linux or FOSS alternatives. They are all dead on arrival. I need Office, not LibreOffice. I need Photoshop, not GIMP. I need Illustrator, not Inkscape. I want Windows, not Proton.

I need a computer, not a tinkerer's toy.

eimrine7• 2 years ago

That sounds like an anti-openness manifesto. Pleace hide the source code from me and squeeze as much profits as possible!

the_third_wave2• 2 years ago

You claim to need a computer while rooting for what is essentially becoming a cloud terminal - odd. If you need a computer, get one. If you're happy with a cloud terminal then say so and continue using Windows.

seqizz• 2 years ago

Then the article is.. not newsworthy I guess. These things are meant to be: "I will still give them money and expect them to do better, no matter what they do".

dns_snek• 2 years ago

Thanks to the magic of exploitative business models, you'll soon be able to run all of those via your Linux web browser for just $99.99 a month, and not long after that'll be the only option remaining.

savingsPossible• 2 years ago

you can get photoshop to run

https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=applicatio...

Metaphorical you of course. Parent does not want to run it. I believe this is a moral error and a coordination failure, and that saying a computer that is out of your control is "more of a computer" while a computer that actually does what you say is a 'toy' is disingenuous.

It is an unfortunate fact that you pay for freedom with effort. IDK if it ever was not so.

dotancohen• 2 years ago

You say that you use computers to do things, then mention not the things that you do but rather the tools that you prefer. That's fine, I also use the tools that I am familiar with. But you should know that other tools exist that do these same things.

thimp6• 2 years ago

It's not just the browser, it's the OS as well, at least on Windows 11. Literally everything is optimised to force you to try and use Bing and Edge. If I hit start, I get bing, if I run updates it tries to sell me Bing and Edge. If I use edge it throws me at the microsoft portal all the time and I have to futz around with it to disable CoPilot integration and add extensions to give me a blank new tab page etc. Then I get an update. Oh and next thing I know it's trying to sell me vouchers. And then the other day it ripped off all my Chrome credentials which I keep separate. I don't even know how it did it. The final straw was on my pixel 7a when I opened the outlook app and found there's a fucking garbage feeds and subscriptions tab in it now which just pipes crap to you.

I got fed up with it at the start of December last year and rinsed my credit card in the Apple Store. I walked out with an MBP and an iPhone and neither have not yet kicked me in the nuts once. I'm slowly porting my data over at the moment and then I'm chucking this crap on ebay and never touching it again.

Well done Microsoft. You burned a 30 year long developer relationship.

neilv2• 2 years ago

No idea why you guys put up with this bullshit. I use [...] macOS,

That's the authoritarian alternative, to the perpetually backstabbing option.

Debian Stable is the actually wholesome marriage material.

https://www.debian.org/distrib/

devnullbrain5• 2 years ago

Debian

OK, sure

Stable

Masochism

greenyoda• 2 years ago

Discussion from yesterday: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39179929

charcircuit• 2 years ago

This is Window's security model in action. Nothing stops Microsoft from developing a feature to compile browser history, bookmarks, previously opened tabs, etc all into one place for the user's convenience. On mobile platforms app's don't have permission to do such a thing.

eimrine7• 2 years ago

On mobile platforms app's don't have permission to do such a thing.

Very doubtful. If you turn on GPS for one app, all ads in all apps at all begin to be better targeted immediately. Especially noticeable if there were a big travel since the previous GPS usage.

datadrivenangel• 2 years ago

That's because most of the ads come through a few ad networks, so if they get location from one app, they have the profile on you.

bonton893• 2 years ago

Even if Microsoft had a proper sandbox system they would have exempted themselves from it "for security scanning and product improvement". It isn't the apps that are the problem, it is Microsoft.

dspillett2• 2 years ago

and stored passwords […] it'll also sync that data to the cloud too

Yet another reason to keep my auth details in a separate store and not let any browser get its grubby mits on them beyond when they are actually needed.

isoprophlex• 2 years ago

Imagine being CISO or any other high level manager doing information security, and your entire corporation runs Microsoft workstations.

Every week there's a new headache to keep you awake at night; did you pay those leeches enough for an enterprise license that doesn't silently exfiltrate all your employees' data? Will they roll out the latest greatest data vacuuming feature to your install base? Fun times!

_cenw4• 2 years ago

This behavior is in fact limited to "consumer" Windows 11 SKUs (so Home and Pro), and also disables when using Pro domain-joined. But bet on it migrating to the business SKUs eventually.

FirmwareBurner9• 2 years ago

Bingo. Microsoft is careful to only screw consumers who don't know any better (they already surrendered their personal data and ownership of their digital purchases and devices to Google, Meta, Amazon, Apple, Sony, Samsung, etc. what's one more?) and to not fuck over their most loyal cash cow (businesses).

alibarber• 2 years ago

I think Microsoft is one of those 'no one got fired for buying...' companies.

A Microsoft data breach is a Microsoft data breach. Your boss - the CEO, won't know what else you could have done, it's Microsoft, right?

Something goes wrong with your 'weird Linux-whatever-that-is-mumbo-jumbo', that you dragged the company into? Well then yeah it's your neck on the line. Sadly.

vmfunction• 2 years ago

This is kind of corporate politics that is ruining the tech industry.

SebFender• 2 years ago

When you're in a O365 deal, it's all built in.

jeroenhd4• 2 years ago

There's a good chance your company already enforces Edge as the only browser in the first place if your company is all-in on Windows. It's fully integrated into existing Group Policy management tools and is secure and compatible enough to be used for web browsing, unlike Internet Explorer 11.

Also, in general, Windows Professional is a lot more respectful towards users. Edge still nags you all the time, but it doesn't do most of the terrible shit that happens to the consumer version.

devnullbrain5• 2 years ago

My experience working at companies using Linux machines to target Linux devices is that IT treat Linux as a headache or a toy OS. They like Windows. They like being able to give you an antivirus that cripples any compilation. They like being able to ignore fine-grained resource management - everyone needs to be a superuser to get anything done, anyway.

dekken_• 2 years ago

at what point does this become theft?

0xEF• 2 years ago

At the point where laws are enacted the protect the user and their respective data, as well as punishment for breaking said laws is more than just a monetary fine. We can have the protective laws all day, but fines are basically just a license to break them, especially when we are talking about something as lucrative as user data.

When the regulatory bodies start to have more power than the corporations they regulate, we will see change. So, you know, probably never.

rkagerer2• 2 years ago

The problem with civil litigation against some of these dark patterns is it can be challenging to show quantifiable harm to a magnitude that makes it worth pursuing. Fortunately judges are becoming more keyed-in to the intrinsic value of privacy.

ipython• 2 years ago

Ironic given one of yesterdays front page stories on hn was how to respond to a c&d letter from a large tech company where they claim violation of ToS for some tool you built to automate processes on a “free” website.

realusername• 2 years ago

That is probably legally dubious in the EU at least

exceptione2• 2 years ago

- You can only run Windows safely on a machine disconnected from the internet and your internal network.

- If you have nothing of value, like if all you have is just some games, you could run Windows on bare metal, but make sure to shield your internal network from it.

- Running anti-virus on what is essentially a really nasty virus makes no sense, as are the various tweak tools that give you a false sense of security.

shp0ngle2• 2 years ago

You need to use LTSC, the only good version of Windows. It doesn't have Edge.

Unfortunately they don't really sell you license legally as an individual. There are shady resellers online.

jacooper• 2 years ago

Afaik it lacks a few things important for gaming on new machines.

cm2187• 2 years ago

The problem is that it also doesn't the fix for what is broken, for instance the start menu was unusable for half of the life of win10 (was hanging every time you opened it).

Windows server is a similar alternative but has the same problem than LTSC.

SushiHippie3• 2 years ago

For educational purposes ;)

https://github.com/massgravel/Microsoft-Activation-Scripts

https://massgrave.dev/

pipes4• 2 years ago

I did this for a while. I ran into something that was unfixable. It was quite a few years ago and my memory is hazy. But it was games related and I couldn't run something due to missinf DLLs and not being able to install a fix (or just paste in the required DLLs). I eventually gave up. I tried for days to find a work around. Shame, because it is a much better experience.

dartharva• 2 years ago

There are several ISO dumps available on the internet that you can download untouched LTSC images from. You can check the hashes from the official Microsoft support site if you need to be sure.

windowsrookie3• 2 years ago

LTSC was the best version, but now apps are starting to require specific release versions of windows. The current Windows 10 LTSC is based on Windows 10 21H2, and will not be updated beyond that. Ableton 12 for example requires Windows 10 22H2.

So until Windows 11 LTSC is released, I have been using Windows 11 Pro Education. It seems to be almost as good as LTSC (ships without most of the bloatware), but allows you to run a current version of Windows.

Windows 11 still feels much slower than Windows 10, even on a modern system clicking on the wifi icon takes 1-2 seconds for the window to open and then you can see elements of the window load. Opening file explorer is the same. This a fresh install on a Ryzen 6800H laptop with a fast NVME SSD. Then there are all the popups asking me to use OneDrive, Edge, Etc. Truly a terrible OS.

nerdjon3• 2 years ago

100% this. For me Windows has become an unfortunate necessity just due to gaming (Please don't try to tell me I can just game on Linux, I want my games to work every time and I don't want to deal with Proton).

Even going so far as installing Windows 10 LTSC on my steam deck and it has been amazing. Better performance, battery life, no annoying features, etc.

I am looking forward to Windows 11 LTSC to come out to get some improvements, but I have not had any issues with gaming on Windows 10 LTSC.

jojobas3• 2 years ago

Same with Mac OS. It calls home with full access to your everything even when your can't log in.

eimrine7• 2 years ago

Every modern CPU does this without even a requirement to have OS, I mean Intel ME and analogs.

MichaelTheGeek• 2 years ago

I see.

naikrovek• 2 years ago

You can only run Windows safely on a machine disconnected from the internet and your internal network.

This is asinine and designed to stoke furor.

I don't like what Microsoft is doing here, either, but that doesn't mean that Edge knowing about your Chrome data makes anything unsafe.

You're trying to inflame, and it's blatantly transparent. I don't know you, but I hope you're better than that.

Microsoft's missteps stand on their own. You don't need to make statements like this to point them out. Their missteps are quite obvious on their own.

exceptione2• 2 years ago

I can understand that it sounds extreme, but I am sincere about it. These are not merely missteps. There is an extremely long trail (just search MS news) where it has become crystal clear that MS knows not any boundary in principle. MS acts like the computer and its data as its own, the user is just a hostage. (Even in a dual boot setup MS keeps setting Windows as default boot option). The amount of telemetry, browsing history and what not that MS pumps out of your devices is mind boggling.

The tech savy user has limited control about that. And they need to stay vigilant because each update can introduce new attacks on their privacy or security.

You should not trust such an actor. I did the math and moved over to Linux completely.

lousken• 2 years ago

Isn't this gdpr violation?

nottorp6• 2 years ago

Probably not. They don't need to send your data to Microsoft's servers to import the tabs in Edge.

Now if Edge also auto activates some sync service that sends your tabs to MS...

hooby2• 2 years ago

Two questions:

1) Do I have to actively use Edge - or does this happen automatically in the background - even if I never open an Edge window?

2) Does any of the data gathered that way find it's way into Windows telemetry (anonymized or not)?

Since I'm neither "allowed" to uninstall Edge, nor "allowed" to fully disable telemetry... Someone in here writes that there is a possibility that Edge sends its browser history (imported or not) to Microsoft servers...

computerfriend• 2 years ago

You are allowed to uninstall MS Windows though.

hooby2• 2 years ago

It seems like that's truly becoming the only option for people who want to some semblance of control over what happens on their computers.

whyoh• 2 years ago

In the EEA (EU), you'll be able to uninstall Edge easily, with an update in the coming weeks: https://blogs.windows.com/windows-insider/2023/11/16/preview...

(And I'm guessing it won't be hard to do that outside the EEA either.)

e40• 2 years ago

Would really love to see an answer to (1).

rowanG0773• 2 years ago

It's very clear why windows usage is dwindling year after year. Windows 7 was the last good windows version. 8 was trash and 10 introduced ads and other extreme anti-features. The search in windows has never been worse. I'm thinking MS just doesn't care about it anymore given they have azure.

Retr0id• 2 years ago

I wonder what percentage of users these days deliberately make use of local files, as opposed to The Cloud. Maybe local search is considered a niche feature now (I have no idea if this is true or not, and I really hope that it isn't).

beAbU• 2 years ago

If you sign in to a onedrive/MS account on windows it'll set all the default file explorer directories to your mounted cloud drive.

Newer versions of Office defaults to the cloud directory when you are trying to save a file. It's an absolute hassle to do something as simple as save a file to my hard drive.

I had to set up my wife's laptop with a MS account a while back, since she got an office license she wanted to use. She's a big Sims 3 and 4 player. Sims stores it's save files by default in the "my documents" directory. Sims game save files are huge. The moment I signed in to a MS account on the laptop, the damn thing converted the whole user folder to a cloud folder, and subsequently started uploading dozens of gigabytes of Sims save files, without my consent or asking me beforehand.

wkat42424• 2 years ago

I'm thinking MS just doesn't care about it anymore given they have azure.

Not just azure but Microsoft 365

They're no longer a software company, they're a services company. Windows is no longer a huge part of their revenue.

shultays• 2 years ago

Is OSX better?

rowanG0773• 2 years ago

I don't know. I moved to linux after windows 8. I do have a windows 11 machine just for VR at home and it's a nightmare to use.

nottorp6• 2 years ago

Was. Not sure where it's going now.

It's still better than windows 10 and 11, but that's not saying much.

alemanek• 2 years ago

Yes, much better. In the last 8 years I haven’t had an update reset my settings yet. On major OS upgrades it will ask me to opt into telemetry but it defaults to my last selection which is “off”.

Apple is far from perfect but I haven’t seen any dark patterns make it into MacOS yet.

nullindividual• 2 years ago

No OS is "better". Each has its own positives and negatives. Run an OS that performs the task required.

It's a tool. Not a religion.

soundnote2• 2 years ago

Better in some ways, worse in others. It's less insistent on bothering you with things, but the App Store is a worse blowup than Microsoft Store, macOS's native window management is trash, the OS can't have separate natural scroll settings for the mouse and the trackpad, etc.

I generally feel like Windows is a better OS with more active annoyances, while macOS is aggressively mid as the kids would say, but doesn't actively bother you as much.

devnullbrain5• 2 years ago

The search in windows has never been worse

All the while, Voidtools have been doing it better, for free.

edgyquant• 2 years ago

And during windows 7 the older people all said XP was the last good release. The actual truth is that there has never been a good windows release and even during the XP days, and before, people who used it routinely complained about Microsoft being a corrupt money grabbing corporation.

rowanG0773• 2 years ago

That's just false. Windows 7 was pretty universally an improvement over XP. The device driver situation alone makes a huge difference.

fifteen15064• 2 years ago

Don't worry, let market fix it.

zeroCalories• 2 years ago

The market is fine with this behavior. Don't confuse your desires for the market's desires and cry about it.

drooopy3• 2 years ago

The market is fine? Do you have any sources to back that up? I'd argue that my family with its rampant technological illiteracy are part of "the market" and they would all throw a hissy fit if their environment and work flow suddenly changed after a reboot.

paulryanrogers• 2 years ago

The dam is fine with these cracks and leaks. ... Until it's not.

fifteen15064• 2 years ago

I agree. The market's fine.

drooopy3• 2 years ago

You're right. This is totally not predatory behaviour and there's absolutely no need for any sort of regulation.

spacechild1• 2 years ago

I think (or rather hope) parent was just being sarcastic.

thombles• 2 years ago

We're not even near the end of this process. Every thing that occurs on (ostensibly) your PC must be uploaded and processed by Bing AI so you can be "productive" while utterly dependent on the cloud and viewing as many MSN ads as possible. I had high hopes for Edge once but it's become clear that it's just a value-extraction funnel.

zer00eyz2• 2 years ago

M$ is still M$

Linkedin, Github, Copilot(just no, but people swear by it), VS code...

How long before M$ takes github down the same road as sourceforge (for those who dont know: https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/rise-fall-slashdot-media/ )

CalRobert• 2 years ago

Already seeing a push to redefine "git" as github, sadly.

rhdunn• 2 years ago

We need some Gitea sent to the GitLab! :) Make people aware that there are more options for self-hosted git.

weikju• 2 years ago

copilot, github, codespaces, vscode, vscode-server: a push to move all development to MS's cloud and out of the hands/power of the little people.

TheRealDunkirk2• 2 years ago

All they need to do is buy StackOverflow from the PE that owns it now, and the circle will be completely jerked.

lioeters• 2 years ago

VSCode and GitHub are honestly great at what they do, granted there are valid criticisms. These are essential daily tools for a sizable population of users, including myself. I think Microsoft has earned a lot of good will by cultivating these, as well as TypeScript and other open-source developer-oriented projects.

Maybe not enough good will though, to recover their reputation from historic and on-going user-hostile moves. I'm really praying that Microsoft doesn't ruin these projects like they've been doing with Windows and Edge.

65• 2 years ago

Microsoft owns Github, VSCode, Typescript, and NPM. That's like... my entire web development stack. Maybe it's fine now, but having one company own all of that makes me a little nervous.

mbwgh3• 2 years ago

Even Firefox will in general not protect you I believe.

I showed my mom how she can use 'web.whatsapp.com' to use Whatsapp more easily (in order to share screenshots or links with others).

After logging in, a notification about Whatsapp having been installed from the app store popped up after a few seconds. And indeed, the Desktop app had been installed, without any user interaction whatsoever.

I am not even sure how this was initiated, but I believe DoH being disabled by default probably has to do with it.

Edit: Like a lot of comments have suggested, I most likely remember this wrong. I tried to reproduce this (after "forgetting about" whatsapp.com in Firefox and uninstalling the app) and was unable to. I did encounter three separate "install the app" buttons, all of which however yielded an additional installation prompt from the app store.

Apologies.

FWIW, according to https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Progressive_web... Firefox does not support PWAs without an extension, so that wasn't it either.

archerx2• 2 years ago

Sounds like a progressive web app, they probably trick you into triggering the pwa install command.

jeroenhd4• 2 years ago

I don't think it's a PWA if she was using Firefox, because Firefox removed the little PWA functionality their desktop browser offered a while ago (this is one of the reasons I still have Chromium installed).

I imagine during the process, WhatsApp opened an ms-store: link that launched the Microsoft Store, and not knowing better, they clicked "install" when prompted.

The desktop app has some features that the web browser version lacks, like video calling support, so I would argue the desktop app is probably what you would want to use as a WhatsApp user, but it's rather annoying that web apps are pushing so hard for people to install desktop applications when their web apps could have the same features if they bothered implementing them in a non-Electron environment.

wkat42424• 2 years ago

I don't think DNS has anything to do with this whatsoever :)

Even if it returned a different IP it would have to be verified by TLS. And it wouldn't affect what the browser is capable of doing. That even being possible would be a huge vulnerability. DoH is more of a privacy feature than security.

It's a weird thing and hard to understand without more details but like the other reply I think it may be a PWA.

mbwgh3• 2 years ago

My (uninformed and probably misguided) idea was that there was a host DNS service (responsible e.g. for resolving local domain names) which would cause Windows itself to trigger some rule when 'web.whatsapp.com' is encountered.

But yeah, the PWA thing seems more plausible, even though I was not aware of any install prompt or similar.

I would need to read up on PWA, and there seems to be a LOT unfortunately.

krige2• 2 years ago

That's probably because you can't "log in to whatsapp" from that address - you can only download and install the app and the site is very explicit about that.

nottorp6• 2 years ago

You can. web.whatsapp.com shows you a QR that you scan with the app on your phone and you're logged in.

At least on platforms where they can't trick you into installing the app.

fauigerzigerk3• 2 years ago

That's probably because you can't "log in to whatsapp" from that address - you can only download and install the app and the site is very explicit about that.

No, that's not true. You can log in and use WhatsApp from that address. Only voice calls require downloading an app (at least on Mac).

FirmwareBurner9• 2 years ago

And indeed, the Desktop app had been installed, without any user interaction whatsoever.

Highly unlikely it just happened out of the blue without any user interaction at all. Stuff like this would be all over the news. Tech tabloids would love farming clickbaits with FUD like this.

You definitely clicked on something that accepts/triggers the installation and you don't remember doing it.

lakpan• 2 years ago

Things that did not happen.

Stranger434• 2 years ago

It looks like MS response to completely missing the boat of the early web 1.0 and 2.0 development is to go all in trying to be less trustworthy then Meta, Google, tiktok, apple and amazon combined by ignoring all pretense to respecting any privacy standards.

Individually the changes might look like things other SaaS vendors might do but combined it's clear that MS is the least restrained of the big players in the cloud/SaaS market.

zecg• 2 years ago

I use this: https://github.com/rcmaehl/MSEdgeRedirect and am very satisfied.

pharrington• 2 years ago

Microsoft Edge is a unique type of prankware. Whoever's in charge of its development should at least be assigned, there is no excuse for how wildly user-hostile that thing is.

wkat42424• 2 years ago

The weird part is they didn't even wait until it built up a marketshare before they thoroughly enshittified it. It's actually worse than Chrome now with unrequested coupon and loan schemes.

georgemcbay• 2 years ago

Yeah I actually switched to Edge pretty early on as a way of trying to disentangle some of my online identity away from Google because I wasn't (and still am not) happy with how much power they had over it.

Not that I trust Microsoft any more than Google, but I figured they were less inclined to violate my privacy in the name of advertisers and other third parties since that wasn't their main business.

Only lasted on Edge about 6 months before I abandoned it as it quickly ended up just as intrusive as Chrome, if not more so, while also being a far worse user experience.

bmicraft2• 2 years ago

They have other means of acquiring a user base, namely resetting you default browser every other major windows update.

mistrial9• 2 years ago

it is lawyers

windowsrookie3• 2 years ago

Microsoft Edge is so disappointing because it was and can be a great browser.

I recently had to use a low-spec computer (Celeron 6305, 4GB Ram, Windows 11), and Firefox just did not run well on it. I switched over to Edge and it loaded webpages much faster, and used much less RAM and CPU while doing it.

The problem was I also had to go into the setting and turn at least 10 different things off. Shopping assistants, copilot, sidebars, etc. The average user is not going to know or feel comfortable turning all of these "features" off, leaving them a browser constantly showing them adware and sending tons of data off to Microsoft.

TLDR: On low-end computers Edge runs great, but Microsoft has also injected it with a bunch of crap.

rjst013• 2 years ago

I would be tempted to switch to edge for the sake of "super duper secure mode" [1] but they have violated my trust in so many ways that I can't bring myself to do it.

1: https://microsoftedge.github.io/edgevr/posts/Super-Duper-Sec...

madsbuch6• 2 years ago

I am wondering: Some engineers must have worked on this type of integration. Heck, some of them are probably also reading along here.

What kind of narrative is being build around the feature to justify its implementation?

huhtenberg• 2 years ago

It's a $-denominated narrative. Dollars in, ethics out.

Just like with every second high-tech company that pays their devs from the ad, tracking, invasive profiling, personal data aggregation and all other blatantly anti-person techs that fuels much of their business. Don't have to go far for examples.

wirrbel• 2 years ago

I imagine: "As a MS Edge user, I would like to have Chromium tabs readily available when I open MS Edge, so that I can continue working in MS Edge seamlessly ...."

madsbuch6• 2 years ago

This does sound quite reasonable. So the narrative is that this is a UX improvement.

latexr3• 2 years ago

Some engineers must have worked on this type of integration.

Knowing how to program is not correlated to someone’s ethics or capacity for empathy. A desire to shit on users for profit is not exclusive to ad executives.

madsbuch6• 2 years ago

I am old enough to experience that I have done something I whole-heartedly believed to be the right thing only to be re-interpreted to be malicious.

I do not believe that some people mean mal intend, and so my original question was in which framework this would no be mal intend.

(My heart are with the anti nuclear protestors who's work is being reinterpreted to have ruined the earth these years, despite them doing what they believe was right)

aceazzameen• 2 years ago

Someone's gotta meet that bonus target.

throwawaaarrgh2• 2 years ago

Real engineers are required to follow a code of ethics. Good thing software engineers aren't!

goda90• 2 years ago

TFA has an update at the bottom that suggests it might be a case of the "continuous import" setting being synced between multiple computers after being set on only one. Not sure I believe it though.

FirmwareBurner9• 2 years ago

What kind of narrative is being build around the feature to justify its implementation?

I dunno, what kind of narrative are Googlers or Meta employees using to justify building an ad tracking and surveillance dragnet for the whole world, including one that emotionally manipulates youngsters into depression and slef loathe?

Probably making enough money to be able to afford not to think about ethics. Everyone has their price, especially those with no wealth to their name.

madsbuch6• 2 years ago

So you believe that people working at mentioned companies get into work everyday with the conviction that their work is making the world a worse place, but disregard it because of $$?

fifteen15064• 2 years ago

I'd do it -- absolutely no issues. Gotta earn money to compensate the lack or deficit of social services and/or house prices.

I'd just protest a bit with an email for upper management just in case upper management tried to shift the blame to me.

stetrain2• 2 years ago

Step 1 - Define a KPI, ie percentage of users using Edge or number of users switching to Edge in <timeframe>

Step 2 - Define target goals for this KPI for each quarter

Step 3 - Create user stories for features and changes to meet those goals

Step 4 - Implement stories, release, and measure KPI increases

Step 5 - Give presentation to <next level up in the org> showing the successful KPI line go up

Stranger434• 2 years ago

The feature being developed was a way to make adopting Edge easier and with that mindset of that being what the users want developing robust ways for edge not to run it's import feature at every boot simply never gets to be an priority.

The mentality at MS is for everything to be about promoting their SaaS divisions to the point where there is no longer an independent business unit selling windows, and bundling them with an nearly impossible opt out is an proven strategy for selling value add services that people might either not need or prefer to get from 3rd parties if asked to explicitly opt in to the vendors version of that service.

nmstoker• 2 years ago

Good reason to sandbox apps, so they can't abuse other apps

I wonder what 4% of MSFT worldwide annual revenue is!

extraduder_ire• 2 years ago

Has this even happened anywhere in the EEA yet though? I get the impression that MS will hold off on many of these changes across europe.

nottorp6• 2 years ago

Eh, Edge is part of the operating system and can't be removed :)

Tbh it's the same thing Apple would say about Safari, except they haven't tried to hijack my firefox tabs yet.

grey_earthling• 2 years ago

When you choose an OS, you're asking to receive the service of the OS-maker's judgement.

So when you choose Windows, you're opting for Microsoft's judgement. That's what this is.

“The food at McDonald's is consistently awful and I hate it, yet I continue eating solely at McDonald's for some reason.”

bmicraft2• 2 years ago

But while you can just switch to another fast food chain of your choice, doing so with an operating system and losing years worth of experience + potentially paid software (games) is not something most people will choose to do on their own.

devnullbrain5• 2 years ago

Buying McDonald's food does not make it legal for them to poison you. Buying Microsoft's OS does not make it legal for them to break antitrust law. Again.

Alifatisk• 2 years ago

Microsoft seriously don’t want to keep their users anymore

jzb• 2 years ago

How many people are actually going to switch, though?

I’ve primarily used Linux for 25 years. Used to try to get people to switch. Microsoft would do something user hostile and people would complain, and then just go back to using Windows. A percentage switched to Apple, but they’re just bad in different ways. (Google, too, if you’re thinking about Chromebooks.)

I’d love to believe “surely this” will be the thing, but I’m not optimistic. (Would love to be proven wrong!!)

TheCapeGreek• 2 years ago

I've seen this sort of consumer inertia with lots of things. People just generally don't care about the topics as deeply as you or I.

My personal bugbear here is Pokemon, for example. I've got acquaintances that outright say "I'll buy the next game no matter what" when each generation has a myriad of issues and lazy development.

My recommendation? Be polite, but firmly call them out. "You complain, but you'll never do anything about it.". Don't ask them to switch, just point out that they won't.

The point of it is to get them to self-reflect on that assertion, and maybe from that point they might do something about it. Just being offered a solution won't do anything (see user elsewhere in this post who says they unfortunately have to use Windows for gaming but refuse to use Proton)

jeppester• 2 years ago

It doesn't matter as long as you can hardly get a PC without Windows. It is a text book example of a monopoly which no longer has to care for its users.

mrweasel2• 2 years ago

I really don't understand Microsoft. They work on VScode, Visual Studio, WSL and other product for developers and then they try as hard as they can to push them of the Windows platform with Candy Crush, spyware and a browser nobody asked for.

Microsoft wanting their own browser is understandable, but why not just make a good and secure browser? Same with Windows, why not provide a secure and private platform that people would actually want to use? Presumably they don't care, they also have enough money, so I guess they don't really have to.

Drakim• 2 years ago

Microsoft is a big company with a lot of different groups of developers, I bet a lot of them think this stuff is really dumb.

throwawaaarrgh2• 2 years ago

No company can survive bad management. One shitty exec that says to do X. Everyone has to follow and the results speak for themselves.

I wonder though, for public companies, do employees not have the obligation to refuse certain demands in order to protect the shareholders?

soundnote2• 2 years ago

Microsoft has a growing ads business, and it's the ads division in charge of Windows and Edge nowadays, as far as I understand. The dev tools are for internal use and B2B, so the motivation is different.

Macha• 2 years ago

At what point does this go beyond dark patterns into illegal?

Sure, they could argue that the users consented into uploading their passwords to Microsoft, but a phishing site could put in terms and conditions that says by entering your password into this fake bank site, it will be uploaded to ShadyFooCorp and that won't stop them getting prosecuted.

lukan• 2 years ago

ShadyFooCorp has not many, many contracts with the government. And the governments computers do not run on their OS.

The only vaguely serious argumentation I can think of, is that they have the comfort and benefit of their users in mind and that they do not missuse the collected passwords in an obvious way.

jurynulifcation• 2 years ago

Collecting the passwords is already an egregious overstep, which renders any usage a DAMNING misuse. Microsoft does not have the comfort or benefit of their users in mind, or they wouldn't do this. What a senseless notion. This is further aggression from a company attempting to take choice away from people using their software. It's not even vaguely serious argumentation, it's outright disingenuous and ridiculous.

AndroTux3• 2 years ago

I'm sure many of these tactics are already illegal. But at this point that's just a marketing expense for them. I'm certain that whatever their fine will be, ist's nothing compared to how many user they managed to convert to Edge with this strategy.

lapcat• 2 years ago

"A professor says Edge is the worst for privacy." (2020) https://www.zdnet.com/article/a-professor-says-edge-is-the-w...

lnxg33k13• 2 years ago

I just today installed windows in a virtual machine because I have an interview in the next few days, and ms teams is the schroedinger video call, dear satan are these people bad, from the inability to use it without a ms account because it doesn’t give the button to skip, but how much upselling of onedrive, office, edge, migration of data etc, just let me use the os and stfu

rjst013• 2 years ago

I've found myself setting up a new Windows install - sometimes VM, sometimes bare metal - every 4-8 weeks for the past 6 months and it's sooooo painful. My computer is a vehicle for getting work done - just let me use the damn thing.

jzombie3• 2 years ago

Why not take a snapshot image of the base install and just revert to that?

stevehawk• 2 years ago

it's worse than that.. if you spam alt+f4 or wait long enough it will eventually let you install without an MS account

lnxg33k13• 2 years ago

Oh thank you very much for the information kind stranger

jzombie3• 2 years ago

I used MS Teams via a web browser using Linux for a couple of years. Should support video calling via WebRTC.

lnxg33k13• 2 years ago

It works 1 time every 2, but there is a chance that microphone for example doesn't work, and I was tired of taking my chances, or having to install chrome on linux, so I just now have a VM that when I need teams, I can boot and then shut down and forget about it

ParetoOptimal• 2 years ago

Teams loads super slowly or not at all these days as of this morning in Firefox. The page frequently blanks and repaints.

It also requires adding 7 microsoft sites to the 3rd party cookie exception list that are totally necessary and not for spying on users.

Microsoft has never fundamentally changed, they just got smarter and are playing a longer game now.

ChoGGi• 2 years ago

If you use a banned email address for install it'll skip the registration and allow you to use a local account.

no@thankyou.com

BLKNSLVR• 2 years ago

They're trying very hard to make up for the tracking and personal data they cut themselves off from when exiting the smartphone biz.

However their behaviour with Windows and Edge makes me wonder what telemetric-hell their phones would have been by this point.

dev1ycan• 2 years ago

I use edge solely to spite Google, I know it's a privacy nightmare but Google asked for it with the web changes they're trying to implement

TypicalHog• 2 years ago

That's some malware level stuff right there if you ask me.

imchillyb• 2 years ago

MS has been a front for the US’ three letter organizations for over a decade now.

Telemetry requested by the Feds. Online accounts requested by the Feds. Edge integration into the OS requested by the Feds.

Don’t listen to what these orgs have to say. Just watch what they do and see who it benefits.

Like Colombo used to say: Follow the money.

ChrisArchitect• 2 years ago

[dupe]

Help the ppl out, Discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39179929

HumblyTossed• 2 years ago

Who are the devs and managers implementing this crap?? I know you're lurking around here! Stop.Doing.This.Crap!!!!

Behave

stetrain2• 2 years ago

But the user metrics line for my department must go up!

Anyway I'm off to implement more push notifications for things the user hasn't asked for.

dopu• 2 years ago

I recently decided to open up Edge and see how it was, given that it is the only browser on Windows which features hardware isolation [0]. Though it seems like this feature is deprecated now.

The sheer amount of garbage I had to turn off made me give up and close it half way through. Which is a shame, because there seems to be good tech underneath all the garbage.

[0] https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/deployedge/microsoft-edge-...

masfoobar• 2 years ago

As someone who sticks with Debian Linux, the only times I use Windows is in the workplace. I leave the internals of Windows to the infrastructure team. How they setup their users, updates, etc.. is not of my concern. I only use work laptop for work.

Sometimes, however, I come across trying a modern Windows. To install and setup myself. For example, the mother-in-law buying a new laptop. I just cringe at all the new rubbish I have to do. Last time I had to create an account. The crap on the taskbar (news, weather) to Microsoft Edge.. and all inbetween.

I am a proud user of Debian. It might not be perfect and I might not be able to play the latest games... but it provides everything I need.. which is the bare minimum!

(Yes I know Steam has come a long way in recent years... but point stands)

I just wish more people would move away from Windows. Yes, gamers may have to sacrifice their games if not supported... but companies go where the money is, including game devs.

Sadly, as computers get better and better.. and more convenient, the more freedoms you lose. People dont care.

Microsoft Edge ignores user wishes, slurps tabs from Chrome without permission

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