Couples with joint checking accounts are happier

https://academic.oup.com/jcr/advance-article-abstract/doi/10.1093/jcr/ucad020/7077142

by its_ethan • 3 years ago

102 194 3 years ago

academic.oup.com

Wife and I have been together for 8+ years and finances is still the #1 area we struggle with (more than sex, more than children), an area we are actively working on improving. When we first had our hiccups, someone suggested we divide our finances as such:

- A shared account (shared expenses) - An account (for my eyes only; buy whatever - no questions asked) - An account (for her eyes only; buy whatever - no questions asked)

Far from perfect. We're now revisiting our setup and perhaps this article might nudge us in a different direction.

dryanau• 3 years ago

May I ask what specifically some of the issues have been? I know it's digging into a personal area so feel free to ignore this, but I'm curious what kind of issues can arise.

itsmemattchung3• 3 years ago

Issues can be categorized into three buckets: my challenges, her challenges, shared challenges. We're working through many of these with our couple's therapist but here's the gist:

  1. When wife would spend beyond our defined budget, I would get angry (stemming from fear) and let that boil inside without ever communicating it verbally

  2. When wife and I decided for her to quit her job to parent our first daughter full time, initially was elated and then I felt a financial pressure I've never experienced before

  3. Wife had a domestically violent partner before and interprets budgeting as controlling behavior

Full disclosure: lots of vulnerability factors for the both of us. I grew up poor and although I have money now, there's lots of emotions tied to finances.

detourdog• 3 years ago

We do as the above and I think it is the only thing that makes sense for us. The problem we have is too much is not enough for some. They don't need to spend they need to horde. It causes problems and I think it is actually some other need that is poorly expressed. Never underestimate the ability to have problems in relationships.

pseudosavant2• 3 years ago

Don't merge your accounts together. You have the right setup - accounts-wise. Changing it to joint likely won't solve issues, and untangling from joint is difficult.

d1sxeyes• 3 years ago

My wife and I use a pretty simple system which we picked up from some friends of ours:

80% of each of our post-tax income goes into a shared account for stuff which is unambiguously 'shared' costs - for example rent, utilities, groceries, savings, stuff for our son, eating out together, etc.

We each keep 20% of our income to do what we want with. This fixes almost all feelings of inequality (I make a bit more than my wife. Personally I'm not that bothered, but my wife feels very strongly that she does not want to be 'supported' by my income, and that her disposable income should be based on her income, not our net income).

Every now and then we agree to move a cost into the 'shared' category even if it's clearly not a shared cost (e.g., my wife's phone bill comes out of the shared account because my phone bill is paid by my employer).

Sometimes we also 'treat' each other, by taking a cost like a dinner out together as a personal expense (often on pay day, for example).

As an exception to the above, my wife is on maternity leave at the moment so we agreed we'd just sum up all our incomings and each of us gets 10%. This is also working pretty well so we might not change it back after she starts working again, but we'll see if she raises this inequality thing again.

Obviously YMMV, but this system suits us well

for_i_in_range• 3 years ago

How about each agreeing to contribute to a joint checking account per month. Like $5K each per month to the joint account.

For those of us who own our own business or are self-employed, my business account is mine, and my partner's business account is hers.

DiggyJohnson5• 3 years ago

This might seem antagonist, I don’t mean it to be so, but does your proposal not assume both parties make well over 150k a year in salary to contribute such a large sum on a monthly basis with anything to spare?

saulpw• 3 years ago

From each according to their ability. If you make $50k and your spouse makes $150k, and your monthly expenses are $10k, then it seems quite reasonable for you to put in $2500 and your spouse to contribute $7500. The nice thing about the joint spending account is that you can set up this arrangement and then subsequently ignore it for everything else. All communal bills just get paid, and you are free to spend your excess how you like. If either person takes issue with how the money is spent, then you break it down into what they're missing. If it's nothing, then what's the problem? And if there is something missing, then you can agree to increase what counts as communal bills, including vacations, retirement, etc. All the way to everyone contributing 100% of their income, which is just a traditional joint account (but I would strongly recommend against that; 80-90% should be the max).

balderdash2• 3 years ago

Don’t you meant more like $80k a year?

technothrasher2• 3 years ago

When we first got married, we had the reverse of this. Both our incomes went into a joint operating account, and we each got an identical allowance paid out bi-weekly into our own separate accounts.

But after a few years of marriage we found it needlessly complicated and now we just have the operating account which we both can withdraw money from, along with various short and long term investment accounts which we both have to agree to pull money from. Perhaps it's because we've never really spent beyond our means that this hasn't caused any conflict in the past twenty years of marriage.

em-bee19• 3 years ago

well in my understanding it is advisable to keep business accounts separate from personal accounts in any case. business expenses are made from the business account and personal expenses from the personal account. only income moves from the business account onto the personal account.

if you and your wife both have their own business, then those of course should be separate from each other. you can still have a shared personal account if you like or not. that's completely unrelated.

gabereiser2• 3 years ago

All of my personal experience with this points to the opposite. Both my parents kept separate bank accounts and had one joint one for bills. I decided to follow the articles advice and simplify to just one and it was the worst divorce my attorney had ever seen. YMMV.

Also, if you entangle your personal finances, I wouldn’t say “staying together” is what your doing, it’s more you are now trapped into supporting the other person (like I was) and they took advantage.

DiggyJohnson5• 3 years ago

Was the joint account the cause or catalyst of divorce in your case?

gabereiser2• 3 years ago

I believe it was a catalyst. Trying to put a budget in place to reduce spending only works when both people follow said budget. When you finally have enough and split finances (keeping the joint account for bills, groceries, etc) it was deemed “financial abuse” in the Colorado courts. She claimed she was being abused and everyone bent over backwards to get her free legal services. It was awful. I’m never getting married again.

pseudosavant2• 3 years ago

Joint accounts, yes. Only joint accounts, no way. Your parents were right. I wish I had done it that way.

dugmartin2• 3 years ago

I don't understand couples that keep separate finances. When you get married its "we" and not "me". It seems like keeping one foot out the door. Note: I've been married for 23 years with everything tracked in joint accounts the entire time but we do have a small "fun money" monthly budget item for each of us that is a black box.

BooneJS• 3 years ago

21 for us, same joint accounts. It probably helps that we both have financial niches we like to pay attention to. I’m the retirement and investments person while she’s the paychecks and credit card person (we don’t have a budget per se, but CC is a nice way for us to get a spending report without much effort).

paulryanrogers• 3 years ago

It can make inheritance simpler in some cases. And if the other person develops into an asshole (not that anyone plans to) then it can also be simpler when it comes time to part ways.

hypertele-Xii• 3 years ago

Marriage is supposed to end when you die, remember your vows?

smabie• 3 years ago

What if one person has significantly more money than the other person? Prenups exist for a reason

nxx7883• 3 years ago

In many places, you don't. Washington State all property is 50/50. Half my income is my wife's, even though I make 800k and she makes nothing.

I dunno, the idea that you are willing to make a commitment to someone for the rest of your life but also try to hold back money from them is so alien.

majormajor2• 3 years ago

In the states I'm familiar with, that's largely just gonna cover pre-existing assets, and you need to be talking about a large initial discrepancy (millions or more) probably to make it worthwhile. I've also been advised that it's easier to do something more like "the prenup will say you'd get 10%, but you revoke your claim to trying to get more" than some sort of "it's all mine!!" - it needs to be non-coercive and give both parties consideration and a reason to make the agreement. Lawyers told me that there's a often a big difference in that world between "what a lawyer might be willing to write up and get people to sign" and "what's gonna hold up in court."

mrastro• 3 years ago

I strongly disagree. Splitting finances allows each person to be responsible for their own money and avoids disputes over whether one person is spending more than their fair share.

For me doing the exact reverse works better, most of the funds are owned by the individual and a small joint account for fun activities.

tw043• 3 years ago

Because joint accounts have always seemed weird and controlling to me? I don’t want my wife to have to “check in” when she wants to buy something. She can spend her money on whatever she wants. We split the bills according to our income (more or less) and discuss saving more when we know larger expenses like a trip or home improvements are on the horizon.

I don’t need access to her checking accounts or credit cards because I trust her to be financially responsible and I don’t want her to ever feel like she has to justify spending money on something she wants to me.

dlisboa• 3 years ago

You're thinking all the money of both people has to go in the same join account, but that's not the case. You can have a "for the bills" join account, and then each person has their own separate account. Every month each person transfer a certain amount to the joint account to cover the bills (50/50, 70/30, whatever split works for them). Any other money is spent in the person's own account and has nothing to do with the other, no need for controlling or justifying.

itake• 3 years ago

To add, I don't want only one person the relationship to know how to manage money. If I pass away, I don't want my partner to be unable to take care of our kids because I did all the budgeting and investing.

barbazoo• 3 years ago

I don’t want my wife to have to “check in” when she wants to buy something

One does not necessitate the other.

D13Fd• 3 years ago

If you are lucky enough that you both have similar spending habits, then checking in isn't required.

civilized2• 3 years ago

Are you under the impression that joint accounts require both partners to consent to a transaction?

ndriscoll• 3 years ago

Interestingly enough, your reasoning is why we share accounts. I'm the sole income earner, so it would seem controlling to me if my wife had an "allowance". I'd presumably still feel that way if she worked outside the home but we had an income (or spending) disparity; it's all our money (both in how we treat it and, if it came down to it, how the law sees it) and we can both use our judgement on whether to buy something. We both have access to everything because we trust each other to be financially responsible.

We still generally talk to each other about anything over a few hundred dollars, but it's more like asking your friend to reassure you because you're not sure if it's worth it. You just want someone to say "dude you've been asking if you should buy X for months just buy it".

It does help that she hates clutter and I think everything is a ripoff so neither of us does much frivolous spending. Also I bring in far more than we need and it almost all goes to savings anyway.

sn41• 3 years ago

I see joint accounts as snooping into each other's affairs. People should be able to have a large degree of independence. Maybe this study says otherwise. I still think that it is prudent to keep separate accounts, even if we are "unhappier".

em-bee19• 3 years ago

i don't know but i feel that if you are not comfortable to share your spending habits with your partner then you already have a trust issue that you need to resolve. of course the same is true when one partner demands to see, instead of both being relaxed and share these things when it's convenient or you are trying to figure out a budget or taxes or you need to track if/when certain payments were made or something else that requires taking a look.

bandyaboot3• 3 years ago

I suppose the study could just as well be titled “couples that trust each other tend to be happier”.

ryandrake• 3 years ago

It just sounds like so much extra work. Transfer $X on date Y for Z bill, repeat for both partners x each bill. Good grief!

Then, how do you avoid the strife over "personal" spending when one spouse makes much more than the other? I can buy a Porsche for myself because my salary is large, but my partner has to make do with a bicycle because she works at a non-profit? How do vacations and other shared things get paid for? Equally? proportionally? I could see a fight happening in each of those systems.

What if one spouse decides to stop working? You pretty much have to switch to a single, joint account at that point, right?

More power to ya if you've figured this out. It sounds exhausting and would never work in my family.

scubbo3• 3 years ago

Transfer $X on date Y for Z bill, repeat for both partners x each bill. Good grief!

This takes me approximately 10 minutes a month to total up and send over as a Zelle request. Hardly arduous.

How do vacations and other shared things get paid for? Equally? proportionally? I could see a fight happening in each of those systems.

Sure, if you haven't discussed ahead of time what your strategy is going to be and people are blindsided. If you have (in our case - general vacations are shared, vacations to go see one of our family are covered by that person), then not necessarily, no.

What if one spouse decides to stop working? You pretty much have to switch to a single, joint account at that point, right?

My partner's been out of work for a few months now, and...no, we haven't.

EDIT: wait, hang on, I'm even more confused now, because:

I can buy a Porsche for myself because my salary is large, but my partner has to make do with a bicycle because she works at a non-profit?

Surely that's _more_ stressful if you have a shared account? With separate accounts, you just do your thing - it's your money, you do with it what you will. If your money's in a shared account, you either have to suppress your desires (not a healthy thing to do in life, especially in a relationship), or have the conversation about how _I_ want to spend _our_ money.

scarface_7410• 3 years ago

Then, how do you avoid the strife over "personal" spending when one spouse makes much more than the other?

When I married my wife she was making $35K and I was making $90K in 2012. By 2020, at 46 and 44, I “retired her”. She was making $25K and I was making $200K+.

The entire time, it’s always been the same, we have separate joint accounts and her money goes into “her” account and “my” money goes into my account. They are all both joint accounts and I made sure she had enough to cover her expenses and spending money. Off and on throughout the years, she carried health insurance for the family that took a big chunk of her check and her car note came out of her check.

I only spend out of my account and the same for hers.

Then, how do you avoid the strife over "personal" spending when one spouse makes much more than the other.

This is both of our second marriages. Neither one of us are extravagant spenders and we talk about all major decisions.

While we were 35 and 37 when we got married, we were both basically starting over. Her from a previous divorce and me from a previous divorce and being over leveraged with real estate post 2008.

How do vacations and other shared things get paid for? Equally? proportionally? I could see a fight happening in each of those systems.

While we had separate accounts, everything went into one virtual “pot” on a spreadsheet and I made sure she had her agreed upon amount of spending money every pay period after “her” bills came out of her check. Vacations were subtracted from the pot.

What if one spouse decides to stop working? You pretty much have to switch to a single, joint account at that point, right?

Nope see above

happytoexplain• 3 years ago

Be careful not to conflate the feelings of "I don't understand people who do X" and "I prefer not doing X".

scubbo3• 3 years ago

These two are _pretty_ similar (though not the same) - neither has inherent judgement in them, they're just flavours of "eh - it's not for me". Much more important to avoid conflating "I don't understand people who do X" and "People who do X are wrong".

scarface_7410• 3 years ago

The issue I have with joint accounts is just logistics. Two people spending constantly out of one account seems like a nightmare.

My wife and I have all joint accounts so there aren’t any secrets. But I know what is in “my” account only changes based on what I spend and the same for hers.

Of course all of our savings accounts that can be joint are.

cat_plus_plus2• 3 years ago

Well, are you posting together to Hacker News, or is it your personal hobby that you don't feel bad pursuing instead of doing another load of laundry. Shouldn't it be "I" and "We", with balancing shifting from couple to couple and over time? Personally if I like game on Steam, I just buy it rather than asking my spouse. So joint account is also kind of like my account, so long as I am reasonable. But for people with limited resources or big dreams, things may be more complicated. I would want to know if my Steam purchase still leaves money for the water bill.

mock-possum• 3 years ago

Other couples think of ‘we’ differently than you do. Everybody deals with money differently.

npteljes2• 3 years ago

It's all about where you set the boundaries, and yours is perfectly valid too. People can and do have a wide variety of arrangements in marriage, some sleep in different rooms, some never meet the other one's friends, some sign a prenup and some don't, and so on.

dugmartin2• 3 years ago

Replying to my own comment instead of editing it...

There seems to be a common statement of it would be a nightmare if two people are spending out of the same account. This is were a budget comes in. My wife and I have been monthly budgeting for most of our marriage and I think it is an essential tool for a few reasons:

1. Unless you plan what you are going to spend (even with one person) how do you know you'll have enough in your accounts to handle both mandatory and discretionary spending?

2. Spending it all on paper, together, before the month starts lets you have money discussions without the stress of already having or wanting to spend the money immediately.

3. It gives you an overall picture of your spending vs savings vs charity.

4. It helps you remember to pay those occasional bills, like property taxes (for those like us without mortgages where you pay them yourself instead of paying into escrow).

Not having a budget is just as strange to me as having separate finances.

InitialLastName• 3 years ago

we do have a small "fun money" monthly budget item for each of us that is a black box.

This is what we have done, but it's been a gradual process (starting before we got married) of moving our shared expenses to a joint account, and that "fun money" is just kept in our own separate checking accounts. That way we can keep a tight eye on our joint spending and savings goals, but don't have to worry about each other's spending preferences (within agreed limits).

DiggyJohnson5• 3 years ago

Maybe I’m in a bubble, and this doesn’t take away from the value of researching the question, but whom does this surprise?

The question of the purpose, value, and content of marriage is certainly in flux at the moment, but to me, a relatively cosmopolitan (currently) single young man, there is no topic the traditionally included are more correct about than marriage.

whats_a_quasar• 3 years ago

I once heard sociology research described as the field that proves with statistics what everyone knows with common sense

brokencode• 3 years ago

Well that depends on what counts as your “common sense”. When you consider the wildly different political beliefs people have, there is simply no way that statement is true. A software developer from Silicon Valley is probably going to think about things differently than a farmer from Louisiana for example.

mr_beans• 3 years ago

Yeah, no, sorry. Been burned on that one. Ex couldn’t control herself and spent every last penny that came in. I have more money at the end of the day even with alimony and child support.

pilgrim0• 3 years ago

Or maybe it is happy couples that have joint accounts, uh?

mlinhares• 3 years ago

That seems very much to be the case given the comments here, all the comments that think joint accounts are bad seem to be people that ended up being divorced so the marriage itself wasn't going well.

I can see how a bad relationship is going to get worse with mixed finances.

lolinder5• 3 years ago

Read the abstract. It's a randomized study, not an observational one.

hooverd• 3 years ago

I can see the abstract but can't access the article. PDF?

Anyways, my wife and I have been happy with contributing to a joint account for expenses but keeping our checking accounts separate.

Also couples with joint social media are notably not happier according to my very unscientific observations.

jrm4• 3 years ago

Seems obvious.

Though, I think a lot of people here think the takeaway is "if you're in a relationship and you do separate now, you'll be happier if you put them together" and NO NO NO that's not it at all.

It's "if y'all were already the type to put them together, you're probably happier than the types who didn't."

mulmen2• 3 years ago

Correlation doesn’t imply causation and if there is correlation it doesn’t imply the direction.

lolinder5• 3 years ago

This link is to a study that was a randomized trial, which means it can theoretically contribute to establishing causation:

In a six-wave longitudinal experiment, we investigated whether randomly assigning engaged or newlywed couples to merge their money in a joint bank account increases relationship quality over time. Whereas couples assigned to keep their money in separate accounts or to a no-intervention condition exhibited the normative decline in relationship quality across the first 2 years of marriage, couples assigned to merge money in a joint account sustained strong relationship quality throughout.

majormajor2• 3 years ago

It sounds like they specifically attempted to avoid that reasoning by taking the decision away from the couples: "In a six-wave longitudinal experiment, we investigated whether randomly assigning engaged or newlywed couples to merge their money in a joint bank account increases relationship quality over time."

I would like to see more of this by income level, though, which isn't mentioned in the abstract. If you don't have much, and you have separate accounts, I certainly see how it results in more resentment, feeling that one of you is having to sacrifice or do more. That lines up with their findings of joint account promoting feelings of cohesiveness. If you are making more, it seems like it would be less of a significant factor in the relationship.

sidewndr465• 3 years ago

oh god, I just realized this study is based off self reporting isn't it? In other words couples are happier when they perceive they have a joint checking account with no separate accounts.

mandevil• 3 years ago

They try to get at that causation problem with the random assignments: they randomly assigned the couples into three groups: no intervention, must do joint finances, and continue their separate finances (all 230 couples in the study started with separate finances). After two years the joint finance groups were happier in their relationship and less likely to have broken up.

So, if you had RTFM'd, you'd have seen that they are trying to get at causation by doing a randomized controlled trial, the gold-standard for proving causation.

taeric2• 3 years ago

As others have said, they did a randomized trial. "Whereas couples assigned to keep their money in separate accounts or to a no-intervention condition exhibited the normative decline in relationship quality across the first 2 years of marriage, couples assigned to merge money in a joint account sustained strong relationship quality throughout."

Sadly, I don't have access to the paper. May try and find a link to it later. I'm curious to know if they split the "no-intervention" cohort to look at the idea you are mentioning. That is, mayhap the cohort that got to do what they want was dominated by the separate accounts group? More strangely, it would be really weird if the no-intervention group saw an inverse result. That is, if given the choice and you keep joint accounts, you are unhappier than if you had kept separate.

throw0101a5• 3 years ago

The study thought of this:

Procedure [of Study 1]: Once both partners completed the intake survey (month 0), we randomly assigned couples to one of three bank account structure conditions. We informed couples via e- mail and provided condition-specific instructions. In the Separate Condition, we instructed couples to continue using separate checking and savings accounts and to not open joint checking and savings accounts, for the duration of the 2-year experiment. In the Joint Condition, we instructed couples to open joint checking and/or savings account(s) (within 1 month of them receiving these instruc- tions), use those joint account(s), and discontinue using their separate account(s) for the duration of the 2-year experiment. In the No-Intervention Condition, we told couples that they could manage their money however they liked for the duration of the 2-year experiment.

* PDF: https://academic.oup.com/jcr/advance-article/doi/10.1093/jcr...

"randomly assigned couples to one of three bank account structure conditions"

beachy• 3 years ago

For people who will not get divorced this is a good idea (as long as each has some slush money).

For people who will get divorced this is a bad idea.

For people who might go either way, if you come into the relationship with similar amounts of wealth and no kids, then this is a good idea as everything you make going forward is a result of your partnership, no longer just you yourself.

For people who might go either way and who come into a relationship with a wide disparity in wealth or existing kids it is more complex.

Scubabear68• 3 years ago

I think this strongly depends on the couple.

My wife and I have had separate checking accounts for 20 years, and a shared savings account, and a second shared checking account we use strictly for transferring money back and forth (we can’t use savings for that due to stupid banking rules).

We also have split the hills according to our relative incomes. I make a lot more so I have the mortgage and a few big ticket items, she has several of the other bills plus her own car payment.

We make joint decisions on big things like vacations, or more recently, private school for our kids.

I know other couples do it completely differently. Some have totally shared accounts. I know husbands on a strict allowance.

Do what works for you.

Forge36• 3 years ago

This sound like what I do. Wife originally wanted a shared account. Then didn't want to change banks (she'd moved and there was no nearby branch).

We have a shared account that we pay for the house and daycare with.

bakemawaytoys• 3 years ago

Very similar situation with my partner and I, except we use budgeting software - I manage my own personal budget and our "joint" budget separately. My partner isn't interested in using the software for her own expenses, which is fine.

We can both see how much money is allocated to everything, if there's anything one of us wants to spend money on that would be a shared thing - we budget for it.

dvd23• 3 years ago

Same for us. We both have our own checking and savings accounts, plus a joint checking and a joint savings one. We each put a certain amount every month to the joint account, based on our revenue (I earn more so I contribute more). Everything is then paid from the joint account. For big expenses, we both decide how to spread the money in different categories.

We both have money left on our own accounts to use however we want.

I would say this works quite well for us, and allow us to plan and budget for our expenses (I mainly do it, she doesn't really care about the software, but she can access it and see how much we have for each category).

trog• 3 years ago

This is what we do, minus the shared savings account. My partner has an app on her phone that she uses to track our expenses and we just share paying for things so we're 50/50, except for big ticket items like rent which we split based on income.

Worked for us for almost 15 years.

CincinnatiMan• 3 years ago

Do what works for you.

This study is saying couples randomly chosen to merge finances had better relationships, which doesn’t really align with your advice.

jlokier3• 3 years ago

Better relationships on average. What works best for you might not align with the average for your cohort. Adapting average-based advice to your individual characteristics often results in a better match to what's best for you than following the average ignoring your individual characteristics.

nojvek• 3 years ago

Relationships are about trust, not blind trust but a good history of verifiable trust.

we have less than <1% of our wealth in checking account, rest is distributed amongst various accounts and investments.

“Do what works for you” is the pragmatic advice.

aaomidi• 3 years ago

???

I think this strongly depends on the couple

This is a study of macro level differences not what each individual is going through…

theresistor• 3 years ago

My observation of couples with split finances (my wife and I merged ours long ago) is that it doesn’t seem to prevent the kind of problems it nominally solves, and adds extra stress to the mix.

If you are married to someone whose financial decisions you are incompatible with, there’s no escaping the fact that you’re going to be impacted by those decisions one way or another no matter what. Hiding them in a for-his/her-eyes-only account creates more stress because now you’re constantly worried about what invisible bad decisions they might be making that will impact you later.

It feels like a bandaid fix to the underlying problem of financial incompatibility, and that failing to address the root problem creates stress and challenges down the road.

taeric2• 3 years ago

Stated differently, it is a technical solution to a social problem.

I'd posit that it is plausible you could both be compatible with multiple accounts for different uses. Especially as you get fortunate enough to have enough income that you can split where it is deposited, there is no reason "joint account" means a single joint account.

em-bee19• 3 years ago

that's a good point, we never formally merged our accounts, but my wife told me the pins to most of her debit cards. i don't know if i told her mine, but that's because the need to do that just never came up. so even though nominally the accounts are separate, in practice we treat all of them as shared.

em-bee19• 3 years ago

split finances doesn’t seem to prevent the kind of problems it nominally solves

nor does it create them. my wife and i have separate bank accounts but we don't have a trust issue. payments are made by whoever is doing it from their account. if an account is low on money we just move some without any regards as to whose money it is or who earned it.

spott• 3 years ago

So you have two shared accounts instead of one?

silisili• 3 years ago

Same. My wife doesn't work but often sells goods or something and gets money via paypal. She likes one bank app, I like another, for starters.

We put all actual spending on credit cards, that I pay off each month from mine. So this isn't like an allowance based thing.

Sometimes she needs cash or to write a check, instant transfer. We don't go snooping through each others records, surprises are nice sometimes :).

I don't see at all what joint could add here. I'm very particular about checking accounts after getting overdraft scarred as a teen like most people my age. I also invest rather aggressively so don't want too much money sitting idle. It becomes much harder to do if we joined accounts, one surprise forgotten about check or draft could cause the house payment to fail, for example.

austhrow743• 3 years ago

That doesn't sound like split finances. You're just using multiple bank accounts.

prepend3• 3 years ago

I think it’s great to have a healthy relationship with trust.

What if I told you that there was a strategy that had a 50% risk of what you think is trust is actually deceit. And that having separate finances helps immensely in the situation where this risk is realized.

I have friends who were comfortable and thought all was well for years or even decades. Then it wasn’t. And having commingled finances was unpleasant in that it made divorce and the financial mistakes that much harder to reconcile through years of trial.

Tl;dr; it’s hard to take marriage advice from someone who hasn’t been married for 70 years. It’s like someone saying “this architecture is the best, it’s run for six months without any problems.”

scarface_7410• 3 years ago

Separate checking accounts mean absolutely nothing during a divorce. It’s all considered marital property and is split. That along with “your” retirement savings, physical property etc.

If my wife and I got divorced, our joint checking accounts is the least of my complications.

I’ve got retirement accounts and two properties (our former primary home that’s rented out and our vacation property) and since we agreed for her to stop working in 2020, I would end up paying alimony.

I did get a divorce before when I had three properties and a 401K. Luckily none of the houses had any equity of note and I was a simple matter of giving my ex cash out of my 401K (a QDRO)

em-bee19• 3 years ago

What if I told you that there was a strategy that had a 50% risk of what you think is trust is actually deceit

can you explain that please? or give an example. i don't understand what you are trying to say here.

pmcjones• 3 years ago

I’ve been married for 53 years; we share our accounts and have never had any problems.

npteljes2• 3 years ago

I think that split finances solve the incompatibility problem for the legal system and banks, and not the couple involved.

pbj1968• 3 years ago

Wouldn’t consider any other arrangement, personally. If you can’t trust each other around the money then there’s not much foundation there, IMO. We both know what the individual budget for non essential purchases is, why do we need top secret accounts? Anyway, whatever works for each couple and keeps them happiest is the best.

bad_username• 3 years ago

Your assumption is that the other person will never change. And the person you trust today will be the same person in 20, 30 years. It is not guaranteed to be true.

PopAlongKid• 3 years ago

I can't read the article, but it seems like the legal concept of community property (Spanish civil law) vs. separate property should somehow factor into this discussion. About one third of the U.S. married persons are domiciled in community property states (CA & TX being the two largest by population).

Commingling separate funds in a joint account can transnmute them to community property.

https://www.irs.gov/irm/part25/irm_25-018-001

asow92• 3 years ago

My wife and I recently started sharing an Apple Card with combined lines of credit and it makes tracking monthly expenses so much easier than having two independent cards. We also share a bank account and mortgage, but have our own investment accounts

jarjoura• 3 years ago

This is such a weird study.

People that choose to keep separate finances seem like the exception rather than the norm. So you'd find way more people in the shared bucket than not.

Personally, I grew up watching my parents relationship crumble over finances and long since had a very sour taste to it. So I always vowed to keep mine separate. We do keep a shared account together that we pool money into it so that when either of us retire or get sick, we'd have this to fall back on later in life. We have an agreement on putting the same amount of money into this shared account and then have whatever is left over to do as we please. Worst cast we end our relationship and can then easily take our half back out without feeling cheated.

lolinder5• 3 years ago

This is a randomized trial, not an observational study.

nazgulsenpai• 3 years ago

Or they say they are happier because they don't want to upset the other person with withdrawal ability on their checking account.

IG_Semmelweiss• 3 years ago

DO what's right for your relationship.

There are sooo many ways this can go wrong. Independent-minded types will have a problem with joint accounts, anxious types will have a problem with separate accounts.

Its all over the place. Think outside the box: resort to joint credit cards or open-book bank statements (but not joint bank accounts). Automated payments are your friend.

Any arrangement will tend to put an already strained relationship in the rocks. Unemployment, income disparity, etc will impact you.

Do what makes you and your partner happy. No grudges or resentments. Empathize with the other's needs but don't make yourself a floormat either.

shove• 3 years ago

I was so “never again” from my first marriage that I literally just pay for everything* but I refuse to do a joint account. It’s just extra bureaucratic headache (in our case) and I’m going to occasionally splurge when I want to. I went overboard setting up a shop during Covid and yeah it led to some strife. We worked through it.

* My wife’s a teacher and rather than argue about money, I let her keep her income as our savings, vacations, whatever she wants otherwise; I use my much higher tech income and pay all the recurring bills, handle retirement savings, restaurants, etc.

luuurker• 3 years ago

[Ignore this and see the reply to my comment. I can't open the site for some reason.]

I don't think it's the joint account that makes them happy. It's their happiness and trust as a couple that makes them have a joint account.

lolinder5• 3 years ago

Did you read the abstract, or just the title? This is a randomized trial, with couples assigned to do one or the other over the first two years of marriage.

cafard• 3 years ago

Probably my favorite line in P.G. Wodehouse is "The saddest words of tongue or pen are not 'It might have been', they are 'joint checking account'."

In practice, it is not that tragic. Joint finances do mean that surprise birthday or Christmas presents must be paid for in cash, or if that is not possible I have to have my son make the purchase and then reimburse him.

johnea• 3 years ago

What about divorcing couples w/ joint accounts? Are they happier?

I think a couple's happiness is largely dictated by the specific people in the couple...

scyzoryk_xyz• 3 years ago

As a young couple we use Splitwise to track all our shared expenses, bills and what-nots. It creates this self-balancing mechanic where whoever owes is the one paying for the thing.

We’re probably going to be doing the whole combined finances soon, but if you have any financial relationship with any person or group, Splitwise is great for keeping the score.

scarface_7410• 3 years ago

My wife and I have always had “separate joint” accounts. We are both on all accounts.

We’ve been married since 2012. Her check went into “her” account and my check went into “my” account. I paid “my” bills out of my account and she paid “her” bills out of her account. I made so much more than her while she was working, I ended up putting money in her account to make up her spending money short fall.

We both have a zero based budget. After we pay our bills and put aside savings, we could each just look at our own accounts to see what we could spend until the next pay period.

She was mostly working for “her” spending money and provide stable health insurance working part time in the school system for the family while I job hopped rebuilding my career.

Then in 2020, I fell into my current $BigTech job and I didn’t want her to be in the school system because of a little world wide pandemic and I “retired” her.

Before that, we talked about how much she would need to be comfortable. That amount gets deposited into “her” account when I get paid.

While we talk about all of our long term goals and neither one of us make big purchases without talking to the other, what we do with our allowances there are no questions asked.

wrp• 3 years ago

Something I've seen frequently in the business world is the husband and wife maintaining separate financial identities so that if one side's business goes bankrupt, a large chunk of the family wealth will be protected.

batiudrami• 3 years ago

this is what limited liability corporations are for, no?

dc3k• 3 years ago

I couldn't be happier with a hybrid setup. My gf and I have an account that we both contribute mortgage and utility money into. Our finances are otherwise completely separate. We buy whatever we want and trust each other to pay our share. It is extremely easy and has not once resulted in any arguments.

SeasonalEnnui• 3 years ago

Same here. It has been educational to see the various viewpoints in the comments and how complex this can get.

cat_plus_plus2• 3 years ago

Doesn't show much?

- Is relationship quality THE ONLY thing that matters? Certainly it's very important, but individuals needs and wants, or desire to help other family members are not NOTHING. If drop in relationship quality was slight, but improvements to these other areas were pronounced, could be a trade off to consider?

- Couples were randomly assigned to each group and presumably ones who didn't adhere dropped out of study. Would the results be the same if decisions were made based on a heartfelt discussion, with agreement to try the other arrangement if the first one caused too much friction.

- Why is it an either/or? Is it a given that keeping a small "for personable hobbies" account while depositing most money in a family fund would hurt? Conversely, would rationally planning family needs and then keeping the rest of the money for personal enjoyment or treating each other with gifts/experiences be bad?

I am lucky enough to have inexpensive hobbies, so I can just spend of them as I wish and it's not going to move a needle on family finances. But if someone wants a family AND to climb Everest, I would not begrudge them not giving up on either dream.

shearnie• 3 years ago

If your partner has adult ADHD separating finances save a ton of stress.

Maybe happy couples with aligned spending and lifestyle expectations end up joining their accounts as an outcome. Rather than joining accounts make you happy

flangola7• 3 years ago

They should study polycule finances. Every family should frankly have a CPA.

londgine• 3 years ago

I have a question regarding a prenup. Maybe people here have good ideas. I know someone (she) who inherited a house in a hcol area. When getting married they made a prenup so that she would keep ownership of the house. They also had separate accounts but lived together and spit the bills, an otherwise happy marriage. Then came a time, after both of them earned some money that they wanted to renovate the house. That caused some issues, because if the house is completely her's, should he chip in for renovations? Together they have enough money for renovations, but she herself doesn't. They will obviously both benefit from the renovations, and he is willing to chip in. But I don't know what would be a good solution. Obviously this is someone else, so I won't get too involved, but I'm going to get married soon, and things like this make a prenup look like it doesn't solve problems, rather replaces problems with other problems.

wakamoleguy• 3 years ago

IANAL, but if the prenup doesn’t already cover this, then they could always draw up a new contract amending it.

ketralnis• 3 years ago

Prenups can say (almost) whatever you want, so the short answer is to cover maintenance expenses in the same document that gives you a stake in the property in the first place even if that stake is just a residence one. Of course that's much more obvious in hindsight but there's also postnups which can amend the prenup.

If I were pitching in to renovate a property I'd want equity in it. You can do that with or without the inheritance or the prenup: figure out the value of the property before and after the renovations and assign that percentage to the person that covered them.

That's what I'd do in a non-romantic housemate situation but of course a marriage is way more complicated and there are lots of pieces that aren't purely legal or equity in nature. A prenup isn't going to absolve you of that.

helpfulmandrill2• 3 years ago

I think even if you fully pool finances, it is best to each take an agreed "allowance" out of that for personal consumption. I don't think its healthy to be a position where any and every purchase you make could be questioned and/or criticised. Some things should be your own private decision.

themoonisachees• 3 years ago

Applying Hank's razor:

Couples who are happier are much more likely to agree to open a joint checking account, skewing the stats

throw0101a5• 3 years ago

The study thought of this:

Procedure [of Study 1]: Once both partners completed the intake survey (month 0), we randomly assigned couples to one of three bank account structure conditions. We informed couples via e- mail and provided condition-specific instructions. In the Separate Condition, we instructed couples to continue using separate checking and savings accounts and to not open joint checking and savings accounts, for the duration of the 2-year experiment. In the Joint Condition, we instructed couples to open joint checking and/or savings account(s) (within 1 month of them receiving these instruc- tions), use those joint account(s), and discontinue using their separate account(s) for the duration of the 2-year experiment. In the No-Intervention Condition, we told couples that they could manage their money however they liked for the duration of the 2-year experiment.

* PDF: https://academic.oup.com/jcr/advance-article/doi/10.1093/jcr...

"randomly assigned couples to"

throw0101a5• 3 years ago

Co-author supplied link to the PDF:

* https://academic.oup.com/jcr/advance-article/doi/10.1093/jcr...

* Via: https://twitter.com/JennyGin18/status/1636732475375321089

tyleo• 3 years ago

We use a joint account and joint credit cards for most things. We each take a $250 monthly allowance to personal accounts. Most of our personal purchases still come from the joint account but every once in awhile you want something big without running it past the other person or you want to buy a gift for them and need the privacy. We budget and pay off our credit cards every week.

This arrangement works well for us. We are both financially responsible though. I think my wife prefers the joint account because I do the weekly budgeting and it allows her to get a clear view of her own expenses with charts. It also prevents all conversation of the sort, “who is paying for this,” that I’ve seen some of our friends get into.

I don’t really care if my wife spends more than I do. I don’t think she cares if I spend more than her. What we care for is that we can get a clear overview of everything to understand how our team is doing.

hashmush2• 3 years ago

Our situation is the same. I think it works well because we are both quite restrictive by nature, so whenever one of us wants to buy something the other often encourages them.

Not sure how it would work with a couple that tends to spend more each month or a situation where one has an expensive hobby and the other doesn't.

raspyberr• 3 years ago

From reading some comments I'm surprised joint account doesn't just mean money for rent/mortgage, bills, groceries, repairs, house stuff. Share the money that's meant to be shared and don't share the money that isn't. I don't want to spend my partner's money on things that exclusively will be used by me, it just doesn't make sense.

em-bee19• 3 years ago

in marriage all money is to be shared. you can give yourselves an allowance, but the money you earn is just as much your partners, as the money your partner earns is yours.

seoulbigchris3• 3 years ago

In South Korea where I live, joint accounts are illegal. You can share cards and PIN numbers with your spouse, and that practice is at least informally accepted. But it’s not a true joint account and doesn’t have the benefit of survivorship.

vsskanth• 3 years ago

Does the no survivorship benefit also apply to retirement and investment accounts ? What happens to the money when someone passes away then ?

seoulbigchris3• 3 years ago

The money / property passes through normal probate process. It’s not automatic like would be in a joint account.

em-bee19• 3 years ago

you can have a bank account only in one persons name, but that doesn't mean you can't treat the account as a joint account.

seoulbigchris3• 3 years ago

Practically speaking, yes. I am not sure it’s completely legal. For example, my wife made such an account in her name and the reason she said was for our savings. A week later the bank shut down the account be side they said an account can’t be shared. It that’s just one anecdotal story.

stcroixx• 3 years ago

Rich millennials (hacker news core demo) will strongly disagree with this I imagine and justify why this doesn’t apply to them. Boomers and millennials have much in common when it comes to discarding wisdom of the past.

svilen_dobrev• 3 years ago

expressing love .. with money? mmh.

or trust over those? maybe that's closer..

Couples with joint checking accounts are happier

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