TikTok Congress Hearing

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/23/technology/tiktok-congress-hearing.html

by tapanjk • 3 years ago

49 91 3 years ago

_bohm• 3 years ago

Can anyone shed light on what exactly "banning TikTok" would look like implementation-wise in the US? Would ISPs be required to block them at the network level? App stores forced to remove the app? Is there any precedent for something like this?

2OEH8eoCRo08• 3 years ago

I could see something like trade sanctions where it's illegal to do business with them. Similar to how Iran is treated.

lostlogin• 3 years ago

How would that work look from a use perspective? Would Google not list them? Would app stores drop them? Would the app work for existing installs?

froglets2• 3 years ago

TikTok was already banned once by Trump. It was removed from app stores for new downloads but still worked if already installed.

ETA: Here’s one article I was able to find about it buried under more recent ones. I’m not sure how long it was removed for, but I do remember checking the Apple App Store at the time and not being able to find it, though it still worked if already installed.

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/trump-tikt...

nickthegreek2• 3 years ago

This never happened.

froglets2• 3 years ago

Here’s the source for The Rolling Stones article about it.

https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/us-start-blocking-tik...

willis936• 3 years ago

I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of tik tok users have iPhones. Politely asking (with a threatening order) Apple to delist the app would be enough to kill it dead.

It would be a mortal wound, remaining users would bleed off, and the small contingent that remains would hold much less overall influence.

ironyman2• 3 years ago

- Blacklist and sanction services like TikTok that are controlled by adversary nations

- Make sure the FCC removes blacklisted apps from app stores.

- Require ISPs to block access to the sites of those sanctioned companies.

- Make foreign employees of sanctioned companies ineligible for most visas.

- Require U.S. national employees and others affiliated with it to register as foreign agents.

sschueller5• 3 years ago

I am curios how this will play out because I believe this has nothing to do with privacy or Chinese spying. Instead congress is being lobbied by Facebook[1] and co to remove a competitor from the playing field that is currently eating their lunch.

One scenario I can see is that the US will ban TikTok while the EU will implement much stricter privacy rules which would need to be adhered by TikTok and all the other (Instagram, Facebook etc). Effectively making the whole reason the US is going to ban TikTok moot.

[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/03/30/faceboo...

EDIT: Spelling

CharlesW3• 3 years ago

Because I'd want someone to do this for me, the word you want is "moot". https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/moot

mcv• 3 years ago

I'm hoping that this will result in banning excessive data collection by not just TikTok, but also Facebook and others. Why single out TikTok? Only because it's Chinese?

VWWHFSfQ• 3 years ago

Yeah pretty much just because it's Chinese. China doesn't allow American internet companies access to their market either though.

2OEH8eoCRo08• 3 years ago

Congress is also being lobbied by TikTok. I've noticed three main opposition points here.

- It's to protect US tech giants

- It's Sinophobic

- Privacy laws for all tech would be preferable

These all deflect from the reason there is a hearing today: Concerns regarding the handling of US user data by a large company with ties to the Chinese communist government.

maxfurman2• 3 years ago

Your third point, strict privacy laws for all, would protect American devices from the CCP, no?

dilap2• 3 years ago

I think the main thing, from a govt perspective, is that a popular social network not under the influence of the government is a real live-wire. The US wants to ban Tik Tok for the same reason that China bans Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, etc.

If it was actually about privacy or whatever, they would simply ban the privacy-violating practices, not the app itself.

thomastjeffery5• 3 years ago

OK, let's run with that:

Let's say TikTok becomes a fully-fledged US company.

Is that actually something under the US government's control? I mean...will the US government actually do anything substantive to reign in the privacy violations of an American company?

Yeah, right...

cjf4• 3 years ago

That's half the story. The other half is that it's under the influence under an antagonistic authoritarian government. If tiktok were a japanese app, this would play out very differently.

dirtyid• 3 years ago

US wants to ban Tik Tok for the same reason that China bans Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, etc.

Except once again, PRC doesn't ban US services, they force them to comply with PRC laws that has onerous moderation overheads. And these services refused back when SV was riding high on free speech, aka low cost moderation.

IMO US wants to ban Tik Tok because they can't implement broad content/privacy rules like in PRC. Whether due to tech lobbying, because it's politically difficult, or it's politically inconvenient - US platforms implementing elevated standards will ripple expectations and costs across global markets where they operate.

Also keep in mind that even PRC hasn't tried to force of sale US companies due to national security. Require joint ventures / ramp up costs, sure. With Oracle deal out, TikTok can't even operate in US the same way iCloud can operate in PRC.

mandrizzle• 3 years ago

How do you enforce privacy laws with foreign entities? They can just lie and say they’re compliant. Not sure if courts in China care

colpabar• 3 years ago

I don't get why people can't just admit that banning tiktok would be a step forward in protecting privacy. It's only one app, sure, but it would be one less app collecting everyone's data. It's also extremely popular in america, so it is probably collecting a lot of data.

The US passing legislation that would protect user data likely won't happen for a long time. The US banning tiktok seems like it may happen soon. I think most people agree the former is more ideal, but wouldn't the latter also be a good thing?

For what it's worth, I really hate most social media and the general landscape of "free" products/services that make their money by selling your data, and I do hope one day we have laws that strictly regulate who can sell what, or just ban the practice entirely. But that includes tiktok, so it being banned would be a good thing in my book.

ironyman2• 3 years ago

I agree with the assessment[1] that even if it isn't illegally collecting data it should be banned because it gives China a crucial edge in the development of AI tools that American companies don't have. China is able to freely access Western markets but not the other way around.

[1] https://www.vox.com/recode/23453786/tiktok-bytedance-cfius-d...

causi• 3 years ago

Too little too late. TikTok is embedded in the culture now. They could've banned it four years ago when all these privacy concerns were first making headlines but now that half the population uses it every day there's no chance in hell.

sschueller5• 3 years ago

They could still pass strict privacy laws but the others (Facebook, Google, etc.) don't want that.

zeroonetwothree2• 3 years ago

Why would TikTok follow them? How can we actually enforce that?

s1k32• 3 years ago

I mean, they could do it. But it would be wildly unpopular among that demo.

stronglikedan• 3 years ago

That demo would just learn to sideload their apps.

inconceivable2• 3 years ago

there's no way bytedance will sell tiktok to an american company. anyone who thinks this will happen is high as a kite. imagine instagram had taken off in china. would the US allow it to be 'force sold' to bytedance or tencent or whatever? L-O-L.

bytedance will just shut tiktok down if the US "forces" them to sell. it will simply disappear one day -- maybe with a nice little note explaining the situation, maybe not. the domestic US political ramifications of this are unknown, because we've never been in this kind of situation before - half the country uses this thing, across the entire socio-political demographic spectrum.

if the ccp has ultimate control as so many people say, on what planet do they sell this market leading company and platform to a US buyer? one that plainly and openly calls china the enemy. the US can not split the political difference between an outright ban and permitting them to operate. it's a binary outcome. even entertaining the idea that the US would just simply take over this asset is pure, unadulterated fantasy. in fact it is delusional.

i mean is anyone actually thinking logically about this?

mcherm• 3 years ago

i mean is anyone actually thinking logically about this?

My working hypothesis is that some of the people considering this ban are thinking about it logically but with the erroneous idea that China is the China of 40 years ago and they the United States is the United States of 40 years ago.

remarkEon• 3 years ago

I think many supportive of a ban are thinking the United States is the United States of 100 years ago, not 40. The United States of the early 20th century wouldn't have tolerated any of this. Teddy would've broken up all Big Tech and banned TikTok without breaking a sweat, and simply sneered at the detractors before going on another safari.

Unfortunately, this America no longer exists.

scottshamus• 3 years ago

This almost happened before when Trump issued an executive order for Bytedance to divest TikTok. Most of the media outlets reported that Bytedance was actively courting U.S. corporations to buy Tiktok. I'm sure there was a lot more going on behind the scenes but I don't think the automatic reaction would be to shutter TikTok.

kelipso2• 3 years ago

Yeah I remember reading about Bytedance willing to sell US TikTok and about how US TikTok is a relatively independent entity etc. So definitely not unthinkable but geopolitics have changed considerably since then.

jovial_cavalier• 3 years ago

Why would they simply shut down instead of capturing some portion of their expected future revenue with a sale?

wellthisisgreat• 3 years ago

Didn’t it what happened with e.g. Uber?

inconceivable2• 3 years ago

that was voluntary, and uber was losing money and marketshare.

ROTMetro2• 3 years ago

According to this guy's testimony 60% of TikTok is foreign investor owned and those foreign investors would very much sell it off before just setting fire to their money.

thomastjeffery5• 3 years ago

US government indescriminately hoarding American citizens' data? But if we don't, the terrorists win! It's not as if honest Americans have anything to hide, right?

US companies openly abusing their access to American citizens' data? I'm sure fining them like 0.1% of their profits will do the trick! No, we can't add more regulations to the industry! Haven't you read Atlas Shrugged?

Chinese company having access to American citizens' data? We need to do something about this ASAP! Maybe we can make them an American company!

pnpnp2• 3 years ago

I think the concern is foreign agents using the data for either propaganda or targeting individuals’ phones/location data.

It’s exactly what national intelligence exists for.

thomastjeffery5• 3 years ago

Yeah, I get that. They are concerned about the Chinese government abusing the data in that specific way.

But they are not really concerned with any other abuses. Is it really the category of abuse that matters here, and not the actor?

Color me unconvinced.

duxup2• 3 years ago

I feel like there's a difference between the two.

ROTMetro2• 3 years ago

I think it's more China having the ability to order a company to do something like this:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/emilybaker-white/2022/12/22/tik...

duxup2• 3 years ago

If China doesn't allow US social media companies to operate in their country, I see no reason to allow TikTok to do so.

cute_boi2• 3 years ago

I think they allow social media, but they have so strict regulation and requests that US companies won't operate there. The cost is so high with less revenue.

CharlesW3• 3 years ago

While playing with it for a short this morning, TikTok threw the CEO speaking at the hearing into my "For You" 3 times. Nothing else in my "For You" was tech related, and I didn't linger on them or provide other signals demonstrating interest.

Maybe it was complete chance, or maybe it wasn't. It made me consider the potential danger of a direct propaganda spigot from the Chinese government to today's youth.

reducesuffering• 3 years ago

It made me consider the potential danger of a direct propaganda spigot from the Chinese government to today's youth.

What does everyone here think will happen on TikTok when the PRC invades Taiwan? TikTok will be a flood of "don't get involved", "The West caused this", and other PRC state propaganda immediately.

revlolz• 3 years ago

I noticed this too, but it sincerely just seems like self preservation. Should the US government come after me after being lobbied by Meta and other conglomerates I surely would be "loud" about it too.

julienb_sea• 3 years ago

It's not complete chance, but it also is how their live algorithm tends to work. After watching a live for a couple minutes, it seems to come back into the for you feed after some scrolling, even multiple times. Probably because its shown most people in that scenario are in fact still interested in the live feed, but got bored with the immediate proceedings and may get drawn back in after some time has passed.

In terms of showing the live feed initially, there is obviously a lot of interest and anger on Tiktok about the potential ban, thus broadening the reach of that content.

xg152• 3 years ago

In a larger context, I find the priorities of all of this amazing.

The fact that social media (including TikTok) is actively designed for addiction and is currently causing a generation-wide mental health crisis?

Not a problem.

The fact that all of those apps have been collecting and trading personal data for more than a decade by now?

Not a problem.

The fact that we know of Facebook's experiments on mood manipulation and we had several scandals about social networks successfully manipulating political opinion?

Not a fucking problem.

Only when there is risk that all the data gathering, manipulation and exploitation might be done by a foreign state, then social media suddenly becomes a matter of national security.

thunky• 3 years ago

then social media suddenly becomes a matter of national security

Are you saying the previous issues you mentioned are also national security issues?

xg152• 3 years ago

yes.

doomleika• 3 years ago

I think this hearing showed how important playing politics is for any career.

One can be absolute incompetent and clueless in everything but as long as they are good at being performative and playing politics. They can reach top level of organization, have all the power and money without much of the responsibility.

Even if one doesn't like politics, knowing how to read people and identifying politics in play is crucial as an insurance in career.

It's bleak, but that's the way human works.

TikTok Congress Hearing

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