The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

https://www.axios.com/2022/03/04/the-cold-hard-truth-about-electric-vehicles-in-winter

by hhs • 4 years ago

231 524 4 years ago

Tostino2• 4 years ago

That is interesting to see the difference the manufacturers bake into their battery designs as far as software control goes. Tesla seems to quite tightly control pack charge and discharge through their bms, and limit things in software rather than hitting chemical limits of the batteries like some other manufacturers seem to be allowing.

brianwawok3• 4 years ago

It also matters who has heat pumps and who doesn’t. Keeping the meat bags warm is a lot of energy.

jeffrallen4• 4 years ago

The heat pump is for the batteries. If there's some heating/cooling left over, it's for the meatbags.

galangalalgol• 4 years ago

Looking back into the source article some of the more better performers do actually have heat pumps. It seems one of the mistakes is that some of them do not start heating the batter in advance, while others spendnpower to keep it warm while plugged in.

ajross• 4 years ago

It's not a chemical thing, it's just temperatures. Cold batteries have lower cell voltage, so the current available drops into the non-linear ("off") range at a lower state of discharge than a hot battery. The energy is still there[1], you just can't get it out without warming it up.

Teslas[2] (and a handful of other models) have heat pumps to warm the batteries. It's as simple as that. The same system is integrated with navigation too, because even on warm days unused/empty cells will be colder, and you want those to be warm when you reach the supercharger.

[1] Which is to say this isn't strictly a change in "range", if you can drive somewhere warm you can keep going to the rated distance.

[2] Ones built over the last three years anyway -- older ones didn't have this. I think Y's and all but the oldest 3's have heat pumps, but older S/X models might not. Something to be aware of when buying on the used market.

Tostino2• 4 years ago

You are absolutely correct that temperature has those effects...but that doesn't change the fact that the underlying reaction inside the batteries is a chemical in nature. That chemical reaction inside the batteries is what gets slowed down as the temperature drops.

aetherspawn• 4 years ago

Hitting the chemical limits of the batteries is what causes 1/ rapid aging and 2/ catastrophic cell damage and/or short failure and runaway, so if what you say is true (I don’t think it is) then the other manufacturers have implemented poor state of function control (SOF) and it would be a good idea to avoid.

Proper SOF control is loosely required for ECE R100 which most manufacturers would have, but OTOH I am convinced that it’s possible to fudge that certification.

Source: battery controls engineer.

guerby• 4 years ago

Fun test by Out of Spec Reviews on his Tesla Model 3:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-c8AUeKs5c

I Deep Froze My Tesla And Immediately Plugged It Into A Supercharger To See What Happens.

I believe Bjørn Nyland did some similar testing too a while ago.

judge2020• 4 years ago

This is right after some Electrify America co-produced/co-designed stations didn't work in the cold, with his hypothesis being the voltage leak detection system within the charger breaking and thus not allowing current to flow: https://youtu.be/fq0RAjJ1PKQ

jeffbee• 4 years ago

JHC the embodied carbon of just the junk in the driveway behind that guy is more than the lifetime carbon footprint of a typical African.

linsomniac7• 4 years ago

TL;DR: This article is only about vehicle range WRT temp, not all EVs are created equal WRT range impact of cold temps. Tesla seems to be best, and Ford seems to be worst.

Animats• 4 years ago

Looks more like a brand problem. Especially Chevy. Different battery technology?

linsomniac7• 4 years ago

I think it's largely a battery management system problem, may also be pack quality. I've always felt like part of Tesla's lead in EVs has allowed them to develop some "special sauce" in the form of battery management.

Other manufacturers that have just started may be playing significant catch-up to Tesla's lead.

cmrdporcupine• 4 years ago

GM (Chevy) actually excellently engineered packs for cold weather. But what you might be seeing here is in fact the result of their attention to battery longevity. The packs in the Volt & Bolt have a lot of systems set up to maintain temperatures optimal for battery lifespan (in both cold and hot weather); one of the things that distinguishes them from the lackadaisical engineering in e.g. a Nissan Leaf.

Lessened range may have more to do with the system spending energy to keep the battery at optimal temperature.

Contrary to what others are saying here, Tesla had no "head start" or lead. The Volt came out the same year as the Model S (2011/2012) and the battery pack in there (LGChem + GM) is extremely well engineered.

(In general GM is far more cautious about many aspects of battery life than others. One of the reasons the Bolt has weaker/slower fast charging. They also have tended to focus on a lower segment of the market than others, too. Comparing a luxury vehicle Tesla against a Chevy Bolt is not exactly apples to apples)

neon_electro3• 4 years ago

And because of this cautious design, shouldn't used car consumers be able to better trust used Volts and Bolt E(U)Vs to have withstood their mileage and calendar years with hopefully less degradation?

evanelias• 4 years ago

If I understand correctly, it's the lack of a heat pump.

tpoindex• 4 years ago

Seems that the underlying study that included the Bolt was from Feb. 2019 (the AAA study cited), so their battery recall/fix and newer software may have helped.

Another couple of red flag in the AXIOS article was: "AAA found the loss in driving range could be as high as 41% with the heater on full blast." Hmmm, even with the recent Siberean cold air mass blast here in Colorado, I don't need the heater on full in my ICE cars with outside temps of -5F. Also, the recurrent.com study show some of the vehicles ratings based on verified range versus estimated range - why? Perhaps it's accurate, but mixed methodologies in the same study.

linsomniac7• 4 years ago

Range impact of cold weather does seem to be a real thing, I can't speak personally because I own a Tesla which has some of the lowest impact.

Another thing to keep in mind is: Charging speeds of cold temps. While the Tesla seems to do great at range, charging at cold temps is not great. When it's below freezing, home charging can be tough to impossible. A few days ago (when it was merely "cold", before the huge cold snap hit us), I drove the car and then parked it to charge for the night. It charged at a rate of 1 mile per hour. Usually it'll hit 30-40. I have it set to start charging at midnight, which meant that the battery cooled down after driving for ~6 hours, before it started charging. I could have started charging as soon as I got home, but then I'm in the 3x higher electricity pricing... I could bump that up to 9 or 10pm to help.

This also impacts road trips. If you are traveling in freezing temps, definitely charge before checking into a hotel (unless the hotel has a charger, which is fairly rare), rather than in the morning. Instead of 30m charge time, it can take 60-120 minutes to charge at a Supercharge.

brianwawok3• 4 years ago

Are you in a garage?

As long as you have 30+ amps of 240v, you are fine charging in winter. It will spend 5-15 minutes warning the pack (and show only a little charge rate) and then kick into your full charge rate.

The only time you are screwed is in like 15-20 amp 120V, it takes nearly all the power to keep the battery warm so almost nothing left to charge. If it weren’t for winter I likely would have kept only a 120 in my garage as that is plenty for summer charging at home.

jjtheblunt• 4 years ago

Same was true (symmetrically more it less) at summer temps north of Phoenix: all the power went to cool the battery leaving nearly uselessly slow recharge times.

linsomniac7• 4 years ago

I'm not in a garage, good point.

toomuchtodo• 4 years ago

These are all excellent points. If you navigate to a supercharger or a compatible fast dc charger in a Tesla, the vehicle will heat the battery pack appropriately for faster charging (based on max current capability at the charger). High level, this is a call for ubiquitous level 2 charging everywhere (and intelligent battery pack management when fast charging is available), with enough power to both charge the vehicle and keep the pack warm. We’re at the same stage with EVs as combustion vehicles were where you had to buy a can of petrol to fill it up, and gas stations weren’t ubiquitous. Make Charging Infra Ubiquitous.

Of course, within certain latitudes, more robust infrastructure is less necessary (the closer you get to the equator). Texas, Florida, and California have most of the US population and will rarely see these conditions (US centric).

rightbyte• 4 years ago

I own a Tesla which has some of the lowest impact.

I have a suspicioun those cars that seem to have no impact on range due to temperature just increase the deepth of discharge in colder weather.

I.e. Tesla and Jaguar.

Robotbeat• 4 years ago

No, it’s because they tend to pull energy from the charger to warm the battery. They’re also often parked indoors. And if you buy one in a cold climate, you’ll often be getting a winter package which includes a heat pump, reducing energy needed for heating the cabin and the battery by a factor of 2 to 3.

hijinks• 4 years ago

if you garage the car it should be ok. I'm outside of Denver and this latest cold spell at night was -22 and my garage temp sensor was 52.

Ya EVs aren't fun in cold areas if you don't have a garage or on a road trip

joshuanapoli2• 4 years ago

It’s strange that people’s experiences are so varied with EVs in cold weather. Here it’s 14F right now and my Model Y is charging at 30 mph (versus 32 mph in warm weather). Driving 120 miles this morning at 11F used maybe 10% more energy than normal. The doors, though, we’re quite sticky and frustrating to open.

hgsgm• 4 years ago

Is that the temp where the car is? (garage?)

linsomniac7• 4 years ago

How long did the battery sit in 14F after driving 120 miles? If I charge right after a 120 mile trip, that'd be fine. Also, are you saying the car is in 14F, or it is 14F outside and your car is in the garage? My car is outside (I use my garage as a shop).

davedx2• 4 years ago

The Model Y has a heat pump, that helps a lot.

That being said I’ve not noticed charging issues with my Model 3, this is my 3rd winter, last week we regularly had -7 C in the night. Does seem to be a lot of variability

josephcsible6• 4 years ago

When it's below freezing, home charging can be tough to impossible.

Don't mix up "home charging" with "level 1 charging". A lot of EV owners will get a NEMA 14-50 receptacle to level 2 charge, and then there's no problem at all charging while below freezing.

linsomniac7• 4 years ago

To clarify, I'm talking NEMA 14-50, 240V@50A breaker, 40A charger) and will regularly get low charging rates if it's very cold.

JPKab• 4 years ago

I live just outside of Boulder Colorado. We just had a polar vortex like a huge chunk of the country did intents were 14 below zero fahrenheit.

My Tesla model 3 actually does very well although of course there is a range reduction. This is one of the areas where Tesla shines compared to other auto manufacturers because they have always viewed themselves as a battery company first. There's not really much you can do to beat years and years of data on BMS and various battery conditions. Tesla's are collecting and transmitting data on current temperature state of the battery etc all the time.

Things like fit and finish of body panels are something that the other manufacturers have decades of experience with in Tesla doesn't. But on batteries we are now talking about 10 years of data Tesla has that they don't. And the culture in the Detroit Auto industry isn't exactly a good one when it comes to promoting competent engineering management.

olivermarks2• 4 years ago

The recommendation is to not charge BEVs inside garages due to the fire risk.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/08/04/tesla-f...

rcarr2• 4 years ago

There's a long distance motorcycle travel series with Ewan McGregor and Charlie Boorman called "Long Way Up" where they go from the bottom of South America to LA on electric motorcycles. They had a lot issues with both range and charging the motorbikes in the first few episodes when they were dealing with the cold winter climate in Tierra del Fuego. Once they got far enough north into warmer climates the bikes were charging a lot quicker and getting a lot more range.

Either someone is going to have to come up with an ingenious solution or electric vehicles are going to be of limited use in cold weather locations where space is not abundant enough for garages (quite a lot of European cities). Infrared heating seems quite efficient, maybe the solution lies there.

Based on the article, that Tesla is looking pretty impressive though!

orangepurple• 4 years ago

WarpedPerception solved this problem by installing a 400cc generator in his Tesla that ran continuously on his 1800 mile road trip

bitwize• 4 years ago

Tesla hybrid mod. Neat!

blamazon• 4 years ago

Given the exhaust noise, I would put some quotation marks on "solved":

https://youtu.be/hHhf223jGIE

thrashh• 4 years ago

Hopefully we discover a new battery chemistry

We seem to stumble on new chemistries that get to production every few decades so cross your fingers

api2• 4 years ago

Or just more range. If you have 350 miles of range and it drops to 300 in the winter that’s not noticeable for 99% of drivers.

We have a 220 mile Nissan Leaf that drops to 180-200 in the winter. We also live in Cincinnati which is a metro area about 75 miles in diameter at the widest span. Most drives are 10-30 miles. The range drop doesn’t matter unless you are doing a road trip.

Recharge time does matter more but any drop there due to slower chemistry is somewhat offset by less thermal down-ramping since everything is cold.

What we need most of all is more fast chargers between cities. There are enough in California and several other coastal states but nowhere near enough between cities in the US interior.

For some reason they put a bunch of DC chargers in the city and none between which is the inverse of what you really need. Is there a grid capacity problem in small midwestern towns or did they just get the priority wrong?

gambiting8• 4 years ago

The entire series of Long Way Up felt like it was filmed maybe ~5 years too early. So many of the issues were caused by the bikes just being prototypes.

Also the solution is easy - when the car is plugged in, just heat the battery so it charges at optimal rate and is ready for your journey. Some cars already do this(the new BMW i4 and I guess the iX too)

rcarr2• 4 years ago

The entire series of Long Way Up felt like it was filmed maybe ~5 years too early. So many of the issues were caused by the bikes just being prototypes.

That was kind of the point though: they wanted to push the boundaries of what was possible. There's a good quote attributed to Leonard Bernstein:

To achieve great things, two things are needed: a plan and not quite enough time.

I feel like the project pushed Harley Davidson and Rivian to achieve something a lot quicker than they would have done otherwise. I hope they do another one in a few years though to see how far the technology has come along, although they've covered quite a lot of the world now so I'm not sure what route they'd choose exactly. NZ -> Aus -> SE Asia -> India -> Stans -> Turkey -> Europe would be my guess.

d_watt• 4 years ago

Anecdotally last winter, had a Model Y up in maine for a trip home. I arrived at a backwoods house with ~60 miles left. It was around 10 farenheit the next day when I hooked up a 110 volt line to the car. Over the next 30 minutes the mileage dropped to 55 as it took more energy to heat the battery than the line could deliver.

I unhooked it and planned to drive 20 miles to the nearest charger, but after 1 mile of travel, it had dropped to 40 miles left. I turned around and drove back, now with ~20 miles left.

I parked the car in an unheated garage and plugged it back in, praying that the car would heat the garage to the point it could start charging. Maybe 2-3 hours later it started to take a charge, and 3 days later it was up to 150 miles, and I drove it to a super charger.

I realized after that, if I ever moved back to Maine and wanted a tesla I

- would need a heated garage

- I could never expect to leave my car overnight at a friends / trip during the winter.

justahuman74• 4 years ago

The 115v lines just arent enough, it may have been quite ok using a 240v though (from say a dryer plug)

simfree13• 4 years ago

OP should have gone by percentage of battery left, and just left the car plugged in.

Not plugging in when arriving and letting the battery freeze (cold soak) overnight, unplugging after 30 minutes of 1.5kW level 1 charging and basing his entire decisions on what the car's guess-o-meter says for remaining milage is pretty crazy IMO.

Seems like OP chose to do the worst thing possible at each juncture to ensure a bad charging experience.

It is normal for cars to use 2 or 3 kilowatts (an hour or two of charging) heating the battery up to temperature in freezing conditions, but once the pack is up to temperature it charges close to normal speed.

brianglick• 4 years ago

You wouldn't really need a heated garage (at home, anyway) if you had a 220 volt charger. That should be able to overcome any charging challenges in extreme cold, anyway. Relatively easy to get that into your garage.

Also - if you arrive at your friend's place in the winter and park overnight, you won't lose a ton overnight if the car's just parked there.

GalenErso• 4 years ago

Meanwhile, with an ICE car, you don't need to worry about having a garage, nevermind a heated one; the right charger, warming a pack, losing fuel overnight, or taking three hours to fully charge. I can pull up to any gas station and fill my tank in 2 minutes. And my gas isn't magically evaporating if it's a little chilly.

The 30 different requirements for EVs to work in cold weather are too complex and prohibitively expensive. That 2035 deadline is never not going to be pushed back unless the EV industry pulls a rabbit out of a hat.

rtkwe8• 4 years ago

Check their post again their car lost loads of charge over a very short range because of the cold so in effect it was losing range overnight. It lost 15 miles over 1 mile of driving and another ~15-20 on the next mile driving back.

bigcloud1299• 4 years ago

I guarantee that you don’t own a all Electric V. I own 2018 model S and I concur with the Op of this thread that’s the case. Charging is a huge pain in cold weather. I have insulated my garage doors and am able to keep the temp at around 45 in cold winters ( I am in Redmond).

nine_k• 4 years ago

I wonder when batteries will come with better thermal insulation to work during cold weather. A battery which is not near-dead has enough energy to heat itself to the point where its capacity increases a lot, given adequate thermal insulation.

(But, of course, that would require even better cooling for a battery on a summer +95F day. OTOH ICEs have a similar problem.)

jackmott2• 4 years ago

You only need a 220volt plug, then its fine.

You can also leave it overnight just fine. I think plugging a 110v during the cold is kind of an edge case, the car tries to charge but it makes thing worse. Maybe a software update would cure that.

cwalv3• 4 years ago

I think plugging a 110v during the cold is kind of an edge case, the car tries to charge but it makes thing worse

I doubt if it could make things worse, despite what the range indicator says.

Phlarp3• 4 years ago

If it's cold enough a Tesla plugged into 120v/20a charging circuit will actually lose voltage over time. It's consuming over 2000 watts just to keep the battery at an acceptable temp for the chemistry to function.

The weight of the battery pack is great for traction in warm / dry conditions, but when driving on ice that weight is just momentum sending you sliding into snow banks.

After a bumper or body panel gets ripped off during the inevitable extraction from above mentioned snow bank, expect to wait 6-9 months for the most basic of body work.

The self driving is an absolute clown show in anything but perfect conditions (mounting evidence it sucks in perfect conditions too~)

Nothing in the world excites me more than expensive nerd toys with electric power trains, but as a Minnesota native I'll take a $900 rolling trash can beater car over a top of the line Tesla six months out of the year. There is a very valuable lesson in observing the legacy auto industry existing in Michigan where the winters get very cold and cars need to perform with snow or ice on the roads. Meanwhile Tesla mostly engineers their cars to be good at driving from LA to SF and back.

hedora2• 4 years ago

At what temperature would it consume 2000 watts keeping the battery warm? Surely it uses a heat pump, so it is pumping 8000-4000W of heat into the battery pack. That would be a large steady state heat loss!

KMag• 4 years ago

The weight of the battery pack is great for traction in warm / dry conditions, but when driving on ice that weight is just momentum sending you sliding into snow banks.

Not necessarily. In Minnesota, people often put sandbags in trunks/truck beds to get better traction in Winter. Also, one has to be careful when following semi tractor-trailers, as in some Winter conditions, they actually have a shorter stopping distance than your car.

jeffrallen4• 4 years ago

The entire country of Norway would like to have a word with you, my friend. (And about 10% of Switzerland as well.)

hedora2• 4 years ago

Not all 110v chargers are equal.

My BMW came with a 6/10 amp (software selectable) emergency use charger.

I bought a 16 amp 110V charger from Amazon, and it is more than enough to keep up with my daily commute. (It is equivalent to an 8 amp 220V charge cable.)

seattle_spring• 4 years ago

You could also just make sure to have a L2 charger. There’s some guy on HN who barges into these threads and insists that no one ever needs an L2 charger, but after I had mine installed there’s no way I could live without it.

verelo• 4 years ago

Yeah living in Canada and having only outdoor parking, no way i could live without it.

Also it’s just cheaper: electricity is much cheaper over night and if i have to charge 24x7 I’m paying much more.

ikiris2• 4 years ago

Normal EV owners have high amp 220 plugs. A 110 20a feed is TERRIBLE for charging in all cases.

wilg3• 4 years ago

The easiest solution here was just to plug it in when you arrived, not the next day.

hanche• 4 years ago

That’s a lesson EV drivers in Norway learn very quickly. If you can’t charge at your destination, plan to visit a quick charger nearby, before arrival while the battery is warm from driving. Even using a quick charger, charging is very slow when the battery is really cold. Admittedly, I don’t have personal experience below –20 °C (–4 °F). If it drops down to –40 °(C or F), I am not so sure what will happen. But the strategy should remain the same.

kergonath2• 4 years ago

It could have been much worse. A battery that froze solid can develop some interesting issues when used after it thawed, such as thermal run-away (or interesting exothermic episodes, as we call it, but funnier to watch in a reinforced calorimeter than in your driveway), or short-circuits (lots of smoke if you are lucky, otherwise a fireball). Batteries have operating range for a reason, and that operating range is exceeded routinely in winter and summer, even in nominally temperate regions.

coderenegade• 4 years ago

This is also why claims of round trip energy efficiency for BEVs need a disclaimer. You need to put energy in to heat the battery, so under certain conditions, your roundtrip efficiency can hit 0%; i.e. all input energy going towards heating the battery, and none going towards charging the vehicle.

BirAdam• 4 years ago

The Wrangler 4XE has a temp controlled battery. Not sure about other vehicles, but it works.

TBH, I think mankind just needs better energy storage. Lithium ion, and lithium iron phosphate are great, but I do not believe these are going to work for us in the long term. I do believe, however, that within 30 years electric vehicles will be more practical than ICE if some kind of better battery is made at a low enough price point.

sixQuarks• 4 years ago

I bet if you had just left it plugged in, it would’ve started charging after the battery warmed up. You freaked out because in cold weather the battery won’t start charging right away, energy will be used to heat up the battery first.

m463• 4 years ago

- even an unheated garage will mitigate extremely low overnight temperatures

- if you install a 220v charger with a 60a circuit breaker, you can charge up to 48 amps

- keep the car plugged in all the time - not only to charge, but to keep the battery warm and even preheat the car for a toasty drive.

GrumpyNl• 4 years ago

I wish i could afford a house with a well insulated, heated garage. This whole discussion, shows that ev are not for the mass.

heresie-dabord• 4 years ago

Question: As a consumer, had you done any research or calculations before the trip? Were your expectations realistic?

What strikes me is that people in some markets have unrealistic assumptions about the current battery technology. Spending more money does not change physics.

EV technology is rather good. But there are bad products in the EV market.

This review of the F-150 Lightning is interesting for the surprise of the reviewer that the vehicle isn't fit for purpose. https://www.guideautoweb.com/articles/68882/ford-f-150-light...

(Google Translate is your friend.)

mythhouse• 4 years ago

- would need a heated garage

Yes exactly why things like govts banning ICE vehicles in 2035 is unfair on poor people without homes.

ls15• 4 years ago

Better have a gasoline generator with you.

jackmott2• 4 years ago

My father in laws truck wouldn’t start this winter in texas because the diesel froze. My EV worked great and thanks to the low temps the battery will be degrading a bit slower with age for a few days.

But yes I take a 15% range hit

Ken_At_EM• 4 years ago

Yeah…my Model 3 loses way more than that in the Winter…I’d anecdotally wager a guess at 30%.

JoeAltmaier• 4 years ago

Love these charts that go 'clear down to freezing'.

Last winter we got up to freezing maybe 5 days.

swayvil2• 4 years ago

Flywheels. What's the state of the tech for that?

Surly that's where we should be developing. Last I heard they're very efficient.

In theory it has no ceiling, storagewise. And it certainly isn't constrained by a chemical reaction.

The only downside is keeping it from blowing up. Right?

petermcneeley• 4 years ago

My friend you have come to the right place. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34079497

fuoqi• 4 years ago

Are you suggesting to use flywheels as an energy source in EVs??? There is a heap of issues with this idea, the main ones:

- They are VERY heavy. Typical energy density for flywheels is 10-40 kJ/kg (if you account for the whole flywheel), while Li-ion batteries and gasoline store 300-1000 kJ/kg and 46700 kJ/kg respectively (the latter does not account for ICE efficiency).

- They are relatively big, since you can store more energy with a bigger diameter (limited by material's strength-to-weight ratio).

- Flywheel is a big gyroscope. You do not want to rotate it around while it spins.

swayvil2• 4 years ago

Yes, I understand the issues. They've used them in busses. Higher speed means more energy storage and ness necessary weight. Gyroscopic action can be handled with gimbals. Etc.

So back to my question.

Gordonjcp6• 4 years ago

Hugely inefficient things, maintenance nightmare, no useful capacity, loads of really weird esoteric bits required to make them work at all.

labcomputer3• 4 years ago

It’s interesting that nobody in this thread has yet mentioned the numerous range tests showing that Teslas achieve less than EPA range in many “real world” (warm weather) tests.

Part of the EPA methodology is to penalize EV range using either a fixed constant or measurements of performance at reduced temperatures. Because Tesla cars perform better in the cold, they use the measurement method when calculating EPA range.

That results in the perceived under-performance of Teslas compared to the competition in the so-called “real world” tests. But when cars are tested at low ambient temperatures, we see the results…

jmclnx• 4 years ago

I saw a similar discussion about Gas Mileage. The point was to allow us to compare the differences between different models under similar conditions, not to get real world results.

Maybe EVs need more complex testing ?

labcomputer3• 4 years ago

Perhaps, but I think they just need more relevant tests. The EPA tests were meant to be challenging for ICE cars, but happen to be easy for hybrids and EVs.

I would like to see a 75 mph constant-speed test at 0F, 50F and 100F

csours• 4 years ago

https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/winter-ev-range-loss

See the chart here. (source from article)

labcomputer3• 4 years ago

Yup, of the cars with “verified” (as opposed to estimated) winter range loss, Teslas do best. Further reinforces my point.

tonymet• 4 years ago

There are other winter issues as well. Door handles freeze, LCD screens fail, cameras and headlights are iced up, stability control fails

Complex systems are convenient in ideal conditions but they suffer in extreme conditions.

Expect more extremes winters in the coming years (as mild winter trends reverse).

hinkley• 4 years ago

I wonder how much of this can be addressed with active versus passive cooling of the batteries.

One of the folk tricks with cold starting regular vehicles is to run the radio for a little bit, in order to warm the battery up just a little to help with cranking the engine. If you conserve the waste heat in the battery banks until the batteries hit 50ºC for instance, then they would spend less time at ambient temperatures once you start moving. Some of that could offset/be offset by the cabin heating system, if you did it right.

But I think the math comes down to the question of whether cooling a battery to freezing reduces the potential energy in the battery, or just the recoverable energy. I think it's the latter, and if so then how much recoverable energy can you increase by converting a given amount of that energy into BTUs to warm the battery?

metadat• 4 years ago

Related discussion from 6 days ago:

Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34038582

(182 points, 317 comments)

mfer• 4 years ago

Consider a 5 year old EV with reduced battery power due to age in the winter. This is looking at new. Practically speaking, it gets worse

Andrew_nenakhov3• 4 years ago

Living in a region were you need to warm up car for 5 minutes to stop it being an unwelcoming block of ice, and experiencing frequent failures to get the starter running due to discharged battery due to cold, I always wondered how much cold affects battery performance and his much the heating costs in miles. Tesla's figures look unbelievably good, and I think they don't account for heating. In -20° you'd need at least 1-2 kWt heater to not freeze, so heating alone would take 5-10% of total energy consumption.

gocartStatue2• 4 years ago

Luckily the engines still generate plenty of heat and EVs use modern heat pumps.

Andrew_nenakhov3• 4 years ago

Tesla claims to have 90..94% motor efficiency. With model Y using 13kW per hour, even if you count all 6-10% of this as heat, and manage to capture it, it'll still be hardly enough to keep the car at a comfortable temperature without additional heating.

throwaway290• 4 years ago

Norway proves EV are OK in the cold. They overtook ICEs already.

Andrew_nenakhov3• 4 years ago

Norway is a particularly bad example here because, despite its northern location, the climate is very mild, with the average winter temperature of just -6°C, while we here regularly see temperatures below -20°C and up to (or down to?) -35°C.

Deprogrammer9• 4 years ago

I live in Florida, im good.

partiallypro• 4 years ago

A bigger problem is that the batteries simply don't charge in the cold and also discharge much faster.

pjkundert• 4 years ago

We’re just still in the early days of EV maturity.

I’ve driven in Canada for 40 years. Until modern low-viscosity oil capable engines — cars were required to be plugged in to block heaters for hours before attempting to start, at -20C and lower.

I didn’t expect EVs to perform better than gas vehicles; why would I, at this level of their maturity?

Diesel vehicles are even more brittle; oilfield workers simply don’t shut off their diesel trucks for days at a time, at low temperatures.

greenthrow• 4 years ago

There's two main challenges for EVs in cold weather that cause extra use of energy vs warm weather; warming up the battery pack and warming up the cabin.

ICE vehicles also run less efficiently when the engine is cold, so this part is roughly analogous even if there is more extra energy required to heat the battery pack.

The main difference is that once the engine is warm, ICE vehicles can then heat the cabin "for free" using waste heat because an ICE is so incredibly inefficient. This waste heat is useless when it is warm but a nice bonus when it is cold. EVs must expressly spend energy to create warmth for the cabin.

But this is also why most EV owners know to schedule your vehicle to warm up while it is still plugged in before you depart. One advantage is that you can do this in a closed garage with an EV and not worry about fumes.

Cold weather reduces range on all vehicles, it's just more noticeable on EVs due to having less excess range and the aforementioned heating concerns.

But I drove a 2014 Leaf for 8 years here in Michigan, without issue. That's a low range vehicle in a very cold climate. It's totally fine.

amelius• 4 years ago

Is it true that the same model of car always uses the same underlying battery tech?

nimbius• 4 years ago

speaking as a professional diesel engine mechanic --and in the midst of this midwest snowstorm-- winter is hard on everything.

-electrics with proper planning work well, but there is a nasty wives tale in the service industry that batteries are safer to work on in a cold garage and that you can skip the safety gear. a tesla battery still has easily enough juice to send you to jesus even at -50c.

-gas engines need block heaters or its like starting an engine in a tar pit, and the mileage takes a 20-30% haircut.

-diesel engines are finnicky beasts in the cold. most of your environmental reclamation stuff has to be heated along with the block, and anti gelling agents are hell on them. mileage and waxy soot particulate from stacks are equally bad. california has special requirements and bans on certain gel agents as well.

in colder places like nunavut or the northern territories, heavy truck drivers without reliable electrical power light a small fire under their engine to warm it. not for the faint hearted.

rcxdude• 4 years ago

but there is a nasty wives tale in the service industry that batteries are safer to work on in a cold garage and that you can skip the safety gear.

oh wow, that is a pretty dangerous bit of misinformation

trog3• 4 years ago

How does Norway deal with their EV population given its cold weather?

matsemann• 4 years ago

For most day-to-day trips it's absolutely not a problem the periods I've rented an electric car. And even the outdoor public/slow chargers at parking spots work fine in even cold weather.

A bit annoying for longer trips. Typically "going to the cabin" type trips. Normally I wouldn't need to stop, or perhaps stop once. With a Peugeot e208 I had to stop twice, and the charging was a bit slow. Still, only turned a 4 hour trip to a <5 hour trip, and since it's not exactly something I do every week the consequence is basically zero.

When there was fewer chargers it was more of a problem. Had to time it so that from the last charger you could reach the cabin and back. But later years with longer ranges and chargers everywhere I don't really plan anything. Except when going to Sweden...

The Kia e-soul I've been using lately feels like it holds it charge much better than the e208, so probably even less of a problem.

And never had troubles getting an EV to start during winter. But may be a bit unfair comparison as the ICEs I've had troubles with are all older generations.

magicalhippo2• 4 years ago

We've had an EV for almost 5 years now. We first had a BMW i3 94Ah model. It had decent battery thermal management, so it performed fine for us. Yes effective range was down quite a bit, IIRC ~150km in -15C vs ~230km in summer, but it was quite manageable.

It got totaled thanks to someone hitting us, and we ended up with a 24kWh Leaf. It doesn't have much in terms of thermal management, so with that we really notice the winter. Like, to and from work is just fine, but any significant trip in sub-zero (Celsius) conditions ain't fun. We knew it wouldn't be great, and we're looking to replace it.

I'd say for our kind of weather, which have many days below -5C during winter, and living in a city or suburbs like we do, the Leaf is fine as a second car. The i3 was good enough since we didn't do lots of long trips during winter, just a few to the cabin and such. Both the i3 and the Leaf (and others) have climate timers, so you can get the car nice and warm in preparation for a trip, using power from the grid. This helps a fair bit both in comfort and in range.

More modern cars are even better though, obviously more range to start with but also with things like battery preheating which sacrifices some of the battery energy to heat it up in preparation for proper fast charging.

I admit I do get a bit of range anxiety during winter from time to time, mostly because the consequences of running out with -10C or so outside isn't fun. If I was living more on the countryside, there's few competitors to Tesla I think just due to the range and thermal management.

All in all, we're definitely not gonna get another ICE. There's just too many things we like about the EVs.

trog3• 4 years ago

Thanks, I figured this was the case - was kind of a tongue-in-cheek question as it's pretty obvious that if a place like Norway can have such huge EV penetration, then they can't be all that of a struggle in the cold!

jillesvangurp• 4 years ago

Interesting to read some real world reports on how modern EV owners are coping with the extreme cold weather. Judging from various comments here it seems mostly fine albeit with a bit of range reduction.

I don't think this is very surprising. This is not the first winter for many EV manufacturers, or owners. And of course EVs are pretty popular far into the arctic circle. E.g. there are super chargers in Northern Norway, people use them throughout the year, and it seems fine there.

I think at this point there are very few surprises for manufacturers and they are pretty well aware how their vehicles perform under different conditions.

I'd be interested to know in how those shiny new F 150s are holding up providing power to people who are in areas with power outages. It seems that these are exactly the type of conditions that justify owning such a vehicle. Presumably, Ford did a lot of testing in cold conditions to make sure they work fine there.

zainhoda2• 4 years ago

Ohh. This explains why the Chevy Bolt in front of me on I-95 pulled slowed to a crawl and pulled over to the shoulder.

pard685• 4 years ago

More Americans are opting to purchase an electric vehicle

Is there a source for this claim? I am suspicious that _most_ Americans are shopping for an EV.

wilg3• 4 years ago

That's why the quote says "more" and not "most".

pard685• 4 years ago

Wow, I need glasses. Read that whole article but the first line was bugging me. Went back read it again. Never noticed it said "more".

Thanks!

clouddrover• 4 years ago

The company analyzed the real-world winter driving range of thousands of electric vehicles and found the Tesla Model Y retained most of its EPA-rated range in winter.

This Axios article is from March, 2022 and has incorrect data. In particular it's wrong about the Tesla results.

The Axios chart claims the Model Y achieves 97% of its EPA range in 70°F and 98% of its EPA range in 20-30°F. They're claiming the Model Y does better in cold weather.

Here is updated data from Recurrent as of December 2022:

https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/winter-ev-range-loss

What's new in the updated data is that Recurrent has included verified real world winter range tests. Previously they were relying on dashboard data and Teslas don't give you good information. Recurrent says, "As evidenced below, it appears in the Model 3 dashboard data that there is almost no change in available range in cold or hot conditions."

But now, "New to 2022, we have added observed, real-world range fluctuations to our Tesla data. The dotted line below shows the range as observed from on-board devices and energy usage. This shows a more expected decrease in winter range, although Tesla's thermal management is still great at controlling cold weather range loss."

What Recurrent now says for the Tesla Model Y Long Range AWD is:

Observed Range at 20-30F: 49% of Original EPA Range
Observed Range at 70F: 64% of Original EPA Range

So even at 70°F the Model Y only attains 64% of its rated EPA range in their data.

Tesla inflates their EPA numbers. You always need to do real world testing.

xyst• 4 years ago

Yet another reason why EVs won’t save us from the inefficiencies of car centric transportation.

Americans, can we stop this failed experiment and let’s (re)build our cities with public transportation and alternative forms of transportation (ie, biking, walking, micro-mobility). Return the spaces occupied by parking lots, parking garages and use that space to house people. End these implied subsidies on “car housing”.

Death to the suburban experiment.

javajosh3• 4 years ago

100%. Someone who beats the drum on this regularly and effectively is Brent Toderian, @BrentToderian@mastodon.online. He's a city planner and strong advocate for precisely this position. Another resource is strongtowns.org. But yes, just speaking up, getting involved at the local level, is something that every citizen should get involved with if they can.

mr_toad• 4 years ago

Even if we got rid of all private passenger vehicles we’d still need some small commercial vehicles and they’d have the same technical issues.

acdha6• 4 years ago

Kind of. Any problem is easier with a much smaller number and commercial vehicles are more likely to be stored in places where they have power available.

danny_codes• 4 years ago

Hear hear.

I'm traveling in Taiwan right now and it's just night and day. Outside of NY and small areas of Boston/Chicago/Phili/SF proper it's just a disaster in the US.

yucky• 4 years ago

Great plan! Tell us how..

josephcsible6• 4 years ago

I like living in suburbs better than cities, so I choose to live in a suburb, but I don't try to keep other people from being able to live in cities. You like cities and not suburbs. Why can't you be content to just live in a city yourself? Why do you need to make it your mission to destroy my neighborhood?

acdha6• 4 years ago

Are they trying to destroy your neighborhood or simply stop subsidizing it? Suburban living costs more and a lot of those costs are paid by the cities they’re near but don’t contribute much to economically.

lucb1e2• 4 years ago

Without taking sides about the actual suburbs vs. cities here (you may be right that suburbs are great), the tone of the comment is very "I have this now, thus I must be allowed to have it forever regardless of the consequences". If you had slaves, and other people didn't have slaves, it wouldn't be very 21st-century to be arguing that "so I choose to have slaves, but I don't try to make other people have slaves. You don't like slaves and not slavery. Why can't you be content to just not have slaves yourself? Why must we all be able to live on this planet happily?" You didn't put forth any substantive argument and I don't see how suburbs are incompatible with GP's proposal for more public transportation. I can't say that you (and everyone) can't have a suburb if you want it, it's just that the whole comment does nothing but appeal to "leave me alone, leave the status quo".

tavorep• 4 years ago

Because the vast swaths of suburbs around cities actively contribute to a lower quality of life for those who live in the city themselves. Not only do cities have to provide car infrastructure for those who commute into the city, which contributes to traffic, noise pollution, emissions, and particulates that fly into the air or run off into the rivers, but the cities also subsidize the cost the suburbs incur.

alar44• 4 years ago

That's a project that will take generations. "Rebuild all the cities". Ok.

xyzelement6• 4 years ago

Counterpoint: moved to the burbs after 40 years of city life (Europe and NYC) and I absolutely love it. Cars work absolutely great and with the decreased need to be physically in the office, suburban life is better and more convenient than ever.

I feel like every post that shits on the suburbs should include how many kids do you have, for transparency. No family or kids, of course the city is better for you.

ffssffss2• 4 years ago

I think you're missing the bigger problem here - climate change. We cannot drive in ICE cars forever if we want our environment to remain livable. Your car-based lifestyle might be fine for you, right now, but it's still unsustainable and contributing to a worse world for your kids and their kids. If EVs aren't going to to be a drop in solution, then we really do need to talk about reorganizing society away from cars, so that we can have a society at all in the future.

The only other option is some kind of technological silver bullet for carbon capture that manages to arrive in time.

Personally I'm fairly pessimistic about this problem. I don't see a political path to widespread mass transit in the US, and I don't know how you remove the incentive that developing economies have to pollute. It feels like a prisoners' dilemma.

javajosh3• 4 years ago

Well, you've got to do the experiment. Move to a major European city center, with kids, without a car, and see how you like it. I tried this in Berlin, and it was quite good! Getting around on the U-Bahn with kids is so nice. You get to hang out with your kids as you travel! Having a free, walkable Kita (daycare/school) is incredible. Being able to walk to useful things like groceries, or a coffee shop, was great. Also, in Berlin they have some of the best playgrounds, and lots of them! Plus on "going out nights" you can get anywhere and back and never worry about finding a designated driver.

But yeah, would I try this in downtown LA? No, never. (Although you could argue that LA is weird because it's neighborhoods are like suburbs. Would I try this in k-town? No. You need a car, for everything.) Of course I have to admit that there is some circularity with the LA situation - no-one wants to live in the city center, so only the destitute live there, which makes it less desirable. In many places in the world, this situation doesn't apply. Would I try it in Manhattan? Maybe.

Renaud• 4 years ago

I don’t understand what EVs have to do with the need for better public transports and better alternatives.

Maybe I’m missing something but that was never my understanding for the need for EVs to replace ICE, a need based in lowering reliance on fossil fuel and decreasing air pollution.

These are still required, whatever urban policy we end up with.

I see the urgent need for improved public transports to be paramount in these goals too, so both EV to replace the billions of ICE cars and better urban transportation alternatives are needed.

Underphil• 4 years ago

I think the poster is alluding to what appears (anecdotally) to be a mindset of "once EVs are ubiquitous we're good forever".

Whereas it can also be seen as kicking the can down the road.

swagasaurus-rex2• 4 years ago

I have a bold proposal for solving the streets in city crisis:

Between buildings, build an elevated walkway above the roads. With ventilation these walkways could cover a large part if not all of the area above roads. Promote social spaces, commerce areas, and open areas between buildings without sacrificing cars. Just build above them.

alwayslikethis2• 4 years ago

Now, who would pay for this? Car drivers? City dwellers?

jancsika• 4 years ago

That, or roll out fiber nationwide and just have everyone do their business inside Fortnite all day in their parents' basements.

piotrkaminski2• 4 years ago

public transportation and alternative forms of transportation (ie, biking, walking, micro-mobility)

In the kind of cold weather that cuts EV range, per the OP? I've been there, and thanks but no thanks -- I'm too old for that shit. I'll stick to my car even if its range is reduced.

Return the spaces occupied by parking lots, parking garages and use that space to house people.

This I heartily agree with, but it can be compatible with cars if we can get self-driving finally sorted out. Just have your car drop you off, then go out of the city to wait for you (and perhaps charge itself at the same time).

Death to the suburban experiment.

Suburbs have different problems than cities do, but I'm not convinced they're particularly worse or more plentiful, and there are certainly other (dare I say better?) ways to solve them than abolishing suburbs outright.

lelanthran5• 4 years ago

Americans, can we stop this failed experiment

It's been pretty successful for a "failed experiment".

twblalock• 4 years ago

Fix the cities first.

Fix the crime, and the pollution, and the noise.

Give people a way to live without constantly hearing their neighbors through the walls. Give people transit options where they don't need to fear for their physical safety. Give people a place to raise children without worrying about them picking up used needles on the street.

Give people space to be something other than interchangeable sardines in boxes in high-rise apartment buildings -- what about people who want to do woodworking, or welding, or work on cars, or hunt?

City live is only one of the valid lifestyles available to humans, and arguably it is the most unnatural, the most harmful, and the least tolerable. Change that before you call for the death of the lifestyles that other people enjoy. Otherwise, don't be surprised if "death to cities" is the response you get.

ElfinTrousers• 4 years ago

So I don't know much about cars, there may be an obvious reason this wouldn't work, but what about a separate engine block heater?

brynjolf• 4 years ago

MG MQ4 has an option to preheat the battery, so if you know you are going to be charging in the next 30 minutes you can turn it on to be the optimal temperature. It does drain battery faster though so best make your calculations correct.

FatActor2• 4 years ago

Mass-produced consumer EVs are a relatively new tech and they will have problems for another few decades and get better because technology gets better over time (see: the past 1000 years). And I'm not a fanboy by ANY stretch of the imagination (I utterly loathe the CEO of Tesla.)

You can't judge today what an EV will be like in 50 years the same way you couldn't judge what would happen from the first Model T (1908) to the best selling car of 1958, the VW bug. I mean, safety and mileage weren't even primary concerns in `58. It was still novelty. You have to jump almost 100 years for mileage to finally get significantly better in automobiles! As well as airbags, antilock breaks, shatterproof glass, seatbelts, crumple zones, etc. EVs are nowhere near internalizing all of the issues, let alone solving them.

I think this is an opportunity to work on the problems, and not say EVs are dead because they aren't perfect. Maybe they only fill a niche in the future, and don't take over, but that's still a big deal for emissions. Hopefully the issues with lithium mining & recycling, and infrastructure, and chargers, and battery tech improves. It doesn't mean don't try to make it better. I'm glad more companies are exploring the tech.

The one area I would think is a justified complaint would be if companies were getting unfair tax-funded subsidies to produce inferior products to make their shareholders rich rather than improving their technology for society.

encryptluks2• 4 years ago

If companies and government doesn't want people making judgments based on their experiences then they shouldn't overhype the vehicles and charge such high premiums unless they are going to be realistic that people are essentially spending 40k or more to beta test a city commuter car.

chii• 4 years ago

technology gets better over time (see: the past 1000 years)
can't judge today what an EV will be like in 50 years

i can't wait for 50 yrs to have EV be better than ICE cars. If they aren't better _today_, i cannot switch. I would assume the majority of consumers have this attitude.

Therefore, in order to transition to EVs for environmental reasons, you either force consumers to have a lesser product by legislation, or improve EVs so that they are the natural choice to purchase.

I don't believe consumers would be willing to suck up a legislated rule that forces them to consume an inferior product, and so they would choose not to elect someone that stand for such.

Therefore, the only realistic way is to have EVs be _better_ than ICE. I think they are on the cusp today though, and soon will surpass ICE.

FatActor2• 4 years ago

Musk's big win was making EVs luxury cars and having rich people subsidize his research (along with billions from the gov't). That gave him a lot of space to collect real-time research data for years.

It is interesting that you managed to use three logical fallacies in one post: a strawman, a false dichotomy, and a no true scotsman.

A strawman because you invented "legislation to have a lesser product." This is a deadly product we are talking about. It is a public safety issue. You should probably clarify what you mean by this because I only assume you referring to banning misleading labeling of dangerous products, like calling something ADAS5 that really isn't.

A false dichotomy because there are more than two choices. You can have competing products that excel at different areas in and some cases are better, depending on the context. In this space you can have "inferior" EVs (I'm imagining cases where they are inferioir, like mileage and ease of use) to ICEs and still be a choice for short commuters. You don't offer that choice, and that's just one alt, hence the fallacy.

No true scotsman because you made up the term "natural choice" to imply the answer is obvious without giving and justification: basically set it up so that whatever you decide as "natural" is the correct answer, and anything else is not a correct answer, and that can move based on your argument. This undermines the choice you give.

I can go further: consumers will absolutely "suck up" (putting aside the issues with your framing). For example I'm fine with legislation that delegates the size, speed, and efficiency of cars, and so are hundreds of millions of Americans that vote for things like this. In fact I wish there were more laws to shrink the size of vanity trucks that are simply monstrous for no reason. There are decades of evidence showing the damage that fast, huge, inefficient cars inflict on society.

fwungy3• 4 years ago

EVs are a wonderful technology for a specific set of use cases, but there are many for which it is not economically or technically efficient.

You cannot beat the energy density of hydrocarbon fuels. Thermodynamic efficiency of an ICE actually increases in cold weather because you can reuse the engine heat for the passengers. In an EV you have to channel your motive fuel into electric heaters which are far less efficient than the drive motors themselves.

The current policy movements towards EV only are suicidal. We are nowhere near ready to support it. It's also discriminatory because EVs cost much more than ICEs and do not have the lifespan of ICEs. Economically disadvantaged peoples of color often depend on older used vehicles.

pensatoio• 4 years ago

Yesterday, I drove my M3 from Nashville to Chicago in the sub-zero wind. Yes, range was slightly down, but not nearly enough to frustrate me.

I imagine today's battery chemistry won't be viable for mass adoption further North, but other than that, I wouldn't let it stop you. Anecdotally, every other aspect of owning the car is wonderful.

upsidesinclude2• 4 years ago

This is comedy gold:

Start the vehicle while it’s plugged in to allow the battery to warm up. “The key is warming that battery up,"

davedx2• 4 years ago

What’s the comedy? I always used to let my petrol car engine run a few mins till it warmed up on very cold mornings too

upsidesinclude2• 4 years ago

Has not been advised to do that since the 90's

bob1029• 4 years ago

I'd like to point out that many ICE vehicles actually improve in performance as the air temperature drops.

For naturally-aspirated motors with aggressive timing, going from 80F to 32F can feel like someone bolted a small supercharger to the engine.

vlad• 4 years ago

eGolf looks great with 88-111% on this chart, but it has a small battery. This car's range of 125 or 135 in warm weather is lower than the other cars', which start at 176 in freezing temperatures.

hefferbub• 4 years ago

I live in a multi-unit residential coop community, and we have managed to install a 240v outlet in each of our 90 carports, and are adding more outlets in open parking areas by mounting them on simple fence-like structures. We use 240v chargers that plug in rather than being hardwired so that we can easily move them around.

We have found that a 100 AMP service can effectively serve up to about 20 EVs, so long as the chargers can communicate among themselves to manage peaks. We use all EnelX Juicebox 40A networked chargers and they have that capability.

So how can you charge so many cars effectively with a small service? It is based on load factors.

The average commute length in the US is around 15 miles one way. So most nights for most cars they only need to replenish 30 miles worth of charge overnight. So there are plenty of hours and plenty of amps to cover that.

Of course, some folks come home from a long trip and need a full 300 mile charge, while some didn’t even drive that day and need no charge—basically it all comes out in the wash.

There are other considerations, but the takeaway is that you CAN support a lot of EVs charging for modest investments if you do it smart.

I wrote a white paper on this in case anyone is hoping to do this where you live: https://localforce.io/misc/Cost_Effective_EV_Charging_for_Mu...

tamaharbor• 4 years ago

Perhaps they should think this out before they outlaw ICE cars in colder climates.

helloworld11• 4 years ago

The people posting here about all the aspects of EV car charging that are just so easy and convenient and present in their region, or easily applicable with a bit of effort have clearly not traveled to the other 80% of the planet that isn't the highly developed nations.

I know that technology can make surprisingly rapid inroads even into far and poorly developed corners, but this applies most of all to either easily or centrally scalable things. The requirements around EV cars are neither. I can't even imagine how quickly or easily much of this stuff will be in any way practical for hundreds of millions of people living in places where EV charging conveniences and personal garages or etc simply aren't the case at all or possible.

These péople won't give a shit about going EV "for the sake of the planet" until they can do it without being screwed in so many ways.

Some of you truly do live in pleasant little bubbles that simply don't consider the wider human world.

not_me_ever2• 4 years ago

The truth about my EV? In summer it gets me to work, and back, without me overheating. In winter it gets me to work, and back, without me freezing my ass off.

The later is something my Diesel never could manage, taking about 20 miles to get temperatures above the freezing point. While my EV is nice and cozy after about half a mile.

The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

Related Stories