US sentences crypto expert to 5 years after North Korea blockchain presentation

https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/currencies/crypto-expert-jailed-north-korea-blockchain-research-justice-department-2022-4

by pseudolus • 4 years ago

350 557 4 years ago

markets.businessinsider.com

CamperBob24• 4 years ago

Help evil people, go to jail. I don't see a problem here.

aaomidi2• 4 years ago

We should imprison the entire US tax payer population then xd

SkyBelow2• 4 years ago

Could someone explain why this wouldn't fall under freedom of speech? Sounds like there were not government secrets nor did the expert have a security clearance that would have held him to a higher standard.

If Tor researchers gave a presentation at a security conference on how to install Tor, knowing full well that some would use it to engage in the proliferation of CSAM, would that also not fall under free speech?

spacemanmatt2• 4 years ago

freedom of speech is not absolute. it's as simple as that. the guy violated a federal sanction.

egberts14• 4 years ago

except the charges is not on about freedom of speech, not at all, not even close.

CamperBob24• 4 years ago

The problem isn't so much the presentation or the content, as it is the transaction. Doing business with North Korea is highly restricted, as it should be, in order to maintain the integrity of US and international trade sanctions against the Kims.

Russia now finds itself in much the same position thanks to Putin, so it's probably a good idea for everyone doing business there to familiarize themselves with economic actions being taken against that regime. Few people in the West ever attempted to do business with Pyongyang, but that's not true of Moscow. There's a lot more legal exposure, much of which will come as a surprise to those affected by it.

meheleventyone• 4 years ago

Could someone explain why this wouldn't fall under freedom of speech?

North Korea is under international sanctions and part of that means you can't aid them. Explaining how to launder money and evade sanctions to a general audience is probably fine. Explaining how to launder money and evade sanctions to North Korea is against the law.

GauntletWizard2• 4 years ago

You can almost certainly get away with "If I were North Korea, here's how I would launder money" as an academic article. Presenting it in Pyongyang seems like a pretty bright and clear "Aiding and abetting enemies of the US"

vmception5• 4 years ago

If the security conference was in a place sanctioned under the US International Emergency Economic Powers Act, then yes.

He applied for a travel exemption, and was denied. He went anyway. He was charged with that, not the speech. That's how its enforced, for this specific reason. Regulate the intermediary to control the desired behavior. Don't regulate the individual with first amendment rights.

orangepurple3• 4 years ago

The USA junta will punish you if you go against them, constitution be damned, the judges are on their side.

eunos• 4 years ago

What piqued my interest is that why don't the NK held the conference in place like CN, HK or Macau? Pretty sure they can hook up more talents with much lower risk.

happytoexplain5• 4 years ago

The issue is not the subjective "will this be used for evil", but the more objective "does this violate international sanctions", which it seems to. It has very little to do directly/exclusively with cryptocurrency or crypto in general.

chickenpotpie4• 4 years ago

Same reason you can't yell fire in a crowded theater. There are limits to freedom of speech, especially when it interferes with national defense. Schenck v. United States is an interesting case where the supreme court ruled that passing out fliers to encourage resistance to the draft is not protected by the first amendment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schenck_v._United_States

ceejayoz2• 4 years ago

It’s Time to Stop Using the ‘Fire in a Crowded Theater’ Quote: https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/11/its-tim...

Three Generations of a Hackneyed Apologia for Censorship Are Enough: https://www.popehat.com/2012/09/19/three-generations-of-a-ha...

ttybird28• 4 years ago

Funnily enough passing out said fliers is exactly what I believe "freedom of speech" is meant to protect.

spacemanmatt2• 4 years ago

i wonder if he thought he had a 1st amendment defense

ALittleLight• 4 years ago

Probably the kind of thing you should go over with your lawyer first.

outworlder5• 4 years ago

He would have been better served by the 5th amendment.

flerchin2• 4 years ago

I would love to hear from Mr Griffith's perspective on this. 5 years in prison is a BFD. I wonder how the arrest went down, why he took a plea, what the details of his presentation were, so many things.

vmception5• 4 years ago

I wonder how the arrest went down

At the airport upon return

Why he took a plea

Because the prosecutor would ask for way more prison time otherwise, the US International Emergency Economic Powers Act charge was pretty solid

what the details of his presentation were

Information the North Koreans could have found already, even with their limited internet

flerchin2• 4 years ago

You have any links for those answers? I appreciate them.

tofuahdude7• 4 years ago

Literally from the article:

“I’ve learned my lesson,” Griffith said. “I am still profoundly embarrassed that I am here, and of what I have done.”

spamizbad• 4 years ago

Not surprised: it seems a common theme with crypto evangelists is the application of the blockchain to avoid sanctions. I don't think its deeply ideological (as in anti-America/Pro-NK) - it's more like they view US financial hegemony as a "competitor" to blockchain technology and a hinderance to global cryptocurrency adoption.

Why he would throw his life away like this seems silly. I don't see the point in taking payment for a presentation you could record and upload on youtube which can be readily viewed by North Korea's leadership.

ethbr04• 4 years ago

It's the ultimate place any honest monetary cipherpunk ends up at. Either you have government controlled financial systems, or you have decentralized financial systems.

Getting to any middleground is pretty tortured, both technically and morally.

Sort of like "Strong encryption permits a world in which child pornography cannot be tracked" with respect to encryption. It's ugly, but true.

(Said as someone who doesn't care about cryptocurrency enough to have a strong opinion either way)

wolverine8766• 4 years ago

Either you have government controlled financial systems, or you have decentralized financial systems.

Some parties control the latter; don't be fooled. The question is, who?

woah4• 4 years ago

No, I think this is a misconception. Sanctions can work without government controlled money. Prosecuting terrorism or organized crime can be done without government controlled money. Catching tax evaders can be done without government controlled money. Everything can work without government controlled money, it just requires more on the ground police work. All of these things were done without government controlled money not very long ago.

Similar to how the job of police would be a lot easier if every citizen was required to carry a surveillance microphone, their job is easier if all transactions are can be censored and surveilled. But it is not necessary.

For example, sanctions: Find people who are trading with a sanctioned regime by looking at if they are importing goods from there. Very easy. If they are paying for labor (remote IT work or something), you can also catch that. Informants, etc.

lawn• 4 years ago

You can be pro encryption, but acknowledge that it makes tracking child porn harder is an unwanted side effect, without aiding the child porn creators.

So you can be pro decentralized financial systems without actively helping totalitarian governments to use them.

some_random5• 4 years ago

Sure, but you don't have to go to a child predator conference to advice professional child abusers on how to avoid being tracked.

paulwooden• 4 years ago

He likely decided to give the speech in person so that he could spend time in North Korea and develop relationships with government officials for the purpose of future (illegal) business.

malermeister• 4 years ago

I'd say it is deeply ideological. Not necessarily anti-US/pro-NK, but anti-any government and pro market supremacy.

HeyLaughingBoy• 4 years ago

I don't see the point in taking payment for a presentation

Maybe taking payment was the point!

unethical_ban• 4 years ago

You almost have to wonder if there is more we don't know. I can't imagine anyone person being able to fundamentally alter NK's understanding of Blockchain. Laugh at that country, but there must be a few doctorate level brains that can watch proxied-Youtube.

He knew what he was doing and he took a principled stand on sharing information with a very unsympathetic party. It would be like teaching mobsters how to clean an AK-47 when there is a specific law against it - sure, the law may sound bogus, but you broke it, and you aren't being exactly noble about it.

erdos4d2• 4 years ago

No, there isn't more, the US would certainly detail it in the indictment if there was. This is obviously a political prosecution against a guy they just didn't like hanging out with guys they don't, and lending those guys a certain legitimacy in the process. He provided NK with nothing of value, as you say, they certainly know about cryptocurrency and have been using it for quite some time now.

ricochet112• 4 years ago

This is so sad, how does locking him up for 5 years really helps anyone? or keep anyone safer? He did something stupid maybe, but his work was exploring how digital systems can help bring peace to the world, and he thought a good place for that to happen is NK, so who doesn't agree with that? None of the information he presented was secret, it was all publicly available.

For comparison here is a company that actually facilitated NK building Nuclear Weapons, 145 violations of the law , they got fined $15k more than Virgil and had no jail time. https://www.complianceweek.com/regulatory-enforcement/td-ban...

What a stupid and harmful legal system.

orangepurple3• 4 years ago

It is obvious that the US penal system is designed for retribution not rehabilitation. Furthermore, you are not allowed to do anything important unless you are affiliated with the Party.

beebmam• 4 years ago

North Korea actively threatens the use of nuclear weapons, offensively, against its neighbors and enemies. There should be no sympathy for this regime or anyone who collaborates with it.

ricochet112• 4 years ago

How do we go about improving relations? How do we improve the lives of the people living under that awful regime? How do we give people ways to exit and escape, and have access to the freedoms we have?

endisneigh3• 4 years ago

Agreed. And once we finish with North Korea we should turn our eyes to the United States, the country that developed and currently only user of nuclear weapons in combat.

No sympathy for users of nuclear weapons or any country who threatens its use!

etherael6• 4 years ago

Giving North Korean citizens access to an economy outside their locked down one where they can engage in trade may well be the exact opposite of collaborating with the North Korean regime. This could easily be the most practical and realistic way to destroy North Korean control over its economy.

If those citizens are no longer beholden to the regime for their economic livelihood and that encourages internal organisation as well as more people seeing they have other options, sooner or later that's going to have a corrosive effect on state control of the economic affairs of North Korean citizens.

Frankly the US should be all over encouraging this activity, but given how stupid they have been for all modern history I can't say I'm surprised they're not.

garbagetime3• 4 years ago

Why do you think it is that the DPRK places such a priority on emphasizing its nuclear capabilities?

dirtyid• 4 years ago

"actively threatens the use of nuclear weapons, offensively, against its neighbors and enemie"

Citation needed. NK nuclear policy is No Preemption understood to be borderline No First Use. Until last month when Japan and South Korea were threatening base strike capabilities in which case NK turned into only retaliation strikes against military targets if attacked first.

Barrin92• 4 years ago

but his work was exploring how digital systems can help bring peace to the world, and he thought a good place for that to happen is NK, so who doesn't agree with that?

Anyone who understands that trying to transfer technology to North Korea that aids in avoiding sanctions is not going to contribute to peace. That a bank got away with doing something similar is of course equally stupid and hypocritical, but doesn't really change the point.

CyberRabbi• 4 years ago

Well it wasn’t like he did this by accident:

"The most important feature of blockchains is that they are open. And the DPRK [Democratic People's Republic of Korea] can't be kept out no matter what the USA or the UN says,"

He intentionally violated the law. Sure, one may consider the law stupid but one should expect to be punished if one blatantly violates it. That’s how laws work, he’s not imprisoned by the whim of a king.

It would be more stupid to violate the law and expect no negative repercussions. There are more constructive ways to reform laws than openly violating them.

light_hue_13• 4 years ago

but his work was exploring how digital systems can help bring peace to the world, and he thought a good place for that to happen is NK

Except that North Korea uses that money to build nuclear weapons. Sanctions are the only reason North Korea doesn't have a nuclear arsenal with ICBMs that it can used to threaten the entire world. Giving North Korea access to more money is not good. It does not promote peace.

Locking him up does plenty of good. It means that someone who would help a ruthless dictator build up weapons that could end the world, is not out there doing it.

For comparison here is a company that actually facilitated NK building Nuclear Weapons, 145 violations of the law , they got fined $15k more than Virgil and had no jail time.

Let's read the article. TD processed $300k. That's.. nothing. I'm sure Kim spends that much on wine every month.

This person was trying to give North Korea a roadmap by which it could evade sanctions with as much money as it wanted. That's far worse.

sofixa7• 4 years ago

but his work was exploring how digital systems can help bring peace to the world

Surely nobody is that naive? Wars and sanctions aren't a technical problem that can be "solved" with a "digital system".

weego• 4 years ago

As a neurodivergent person in tech, mentoring and MH support, I've met a number of similarly ND people who are indeed convinced that human scale problems are just issues we've not solved with technology yet.

kayamon4• 4 years ago

Yes they are. Wars are funded via inflation. Bitcoin solves inflation by using computers to allow trading bottled energy online, thereby pulling the funding out from under oligarchs.

thomastjeffery2• 4 years ago

So if they are, they should be imprisoned?

Maybe you haven't met someone with high-functioning autism. Being naive is essentially a symptom.

GauntletWizard2• 4 years ago

All the solutions to your math homework are publically available, you can find plenty of examples all over. Nonetheless, you're not allowed to go to your friend's desk and do it for him.

North Korea is a country under sanction from the international community for... Cartoon-level villainy, but in the real world. Some of the regimes' crimes are unbelievable because they seem too cruel. They remain actively at war with t This man did not give a talk about how North Korea could evade sanctions, he traveled to Pyongyang to teach them. This is pretty close to being the definition of "Treason".

tofuahdude7• 4 years ago

He expressly stated he knew he was helping to evade financial sanctions and you think it's "sad" to punish him for violating the laws of our country?

How does it help anyone? It sets the tone that people who break the rule of law will be punished. It establish that there is real "stick" so that other people do not perpetrate similar crimes with other rogue states.

pen2l• 4 years ago

Did his PhD at Caltech under Christof Koch in computation and neural systems, was a super talented mathematician... and then he gets involved in crypto.

I remember conversations with friends only a few years ago in which we would lament how young brilliant minds were eventually going on to work on adtech, and we would sigh and hope that the tide would turn.

Boy, we were not prepared for this tide.

Anyway, the NYSD release gives some interesting details: (https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/manhattan-us-attorney-a...)

  GRIFFITH identified several DPRK Cryptocurrency Conference attendees who
  appeared to work for the North Korean government, and who, during his 
  presentation, asked GRIFFITH specific questions about blockchain and 
  cryptocurrency and prompted discussions on technical aspects of those technologies.

  After the DPRK Cryptocurrency Conference, GRIFFITH began formulating plans to 
  facilitate the exchange of cryptocurrency between the DPRK and South Korea, despite 
  knowing that assisting with such an exchange would violate sanctions against the 
  DPRK.  GRIFFITH also encouraged other U.S. citizens to travel to North Korea,
  including to attend the same DPRK Cryptocurrency Conference the following year.

Smart enough as he was, I'm sure he knew of the terrible human rights track record NK had. That he chose to start helping the NK government evade sanctions, I am not able to muster a lot of sympathy for the guy at this point.

tmpz22• 4 years ago

All that education and they still didn’t have the common sense to maybe not go to North Korea

radicaldreamer3• 4 years ago

I think there's a kind of naïveté at work here.

He cooperated when questioned after returning from North Korea, only to have his own words used against him when he was charged.

He didn't take sanctions violations seriously enough and when he asked the State Dept for permission beforehand to go, they said no, and he went anyway.

s1artibartfast23• 4 years ago

Sounds like he simply didn't support the sanctions and doesn't believe in blind obedience to US law.

beaconstudios3• 4 years ago

There are sanctions that are worthy of criticism - the decades-long sanction on Cuba, for instance, even though I disagree with their regime - but North Korea is pretty transparently a despotic regime that should be opposed.

BobbyJo4• 4 years ago

AND was totally fine with large-scale, systematic, oppression and torture (so long as he profits from it).

That's kind of the key ingredient needed to be someone that HELPS KIM JUNG UN.

jokethrowaway3• 4 years ago

The sad thing is that smart people are going to crypto because there is easy money to be made and not because they support decentralisation and fighting the government

ericd• 4 years ago

Doubt it, it's likely more because it's interesting, and there're interesting things to be done with it.

spicymaki• 4 years ago

Indeed. +1 to this. The most talented among us could be building a better world, yet they are wasting time in rent seeking schemes.

woah4• 4 years ago

This guy literally traveled to a repressive totalitarian regime to perform services for them with the intention of helping them evade sanctions. The fact that crypto was involved is incidental.

tradertef2• 4 years ago

US has terrible human rights track record as well (Guantanamo, Abu Gharib), .. so as other countries.

timmytokyo• 4 years ago

I don't understand this response. Are you arguing that it's therefore justifiable to do what Griffith did? If not, please try to justify it without resorting to whataboutism.

nmwnmw• 4 years ago

This is the same Virgil of:

- Ethereum Proof of Stake [1]

- King of the Nerds TV Show

- Wikiscanner [2]

Source [3]

[1] https://arxiv.org/abs/1710.09437 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WikiScanner [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgil_Griffith

throw8383833jj• 4 years ago

I really wonder if he knew he could go to jail for this. did he know the risks?

chatmasta2• 4 years ago

I met Virgil at an academic workshop back in 2014. We went out in Amsterdam. He was a weird guy, to say the least (he’d probably be the first to agree). He was generally quite affable and obviously highly intelligent.

He’s an idiot for this fiasco. But it’s also sad to see him in jail; I don’t see how this benefits society in any way. Five years in prison seems like a disproportionate punishment for an arguably victimless crime. None of us is safer today because Virgil is in prison.

ethbr04• 4 years ago

Agreed. This feels like early-90s computer crime sentencing.

Making it easy for someone to bludgeon you over the head with a legal charge is your own fault. But the net impact of the charge can also be useless.

Daishiman• 4 years ago

If you were to advice a sanctioned country on how to launder money or evade currency controls you would also be penalized in the same manner.

unnouinceput• 4 years ago

This is about sending a message, especially to brilliant minds. No prosecution was involved when Rodman was visiting NK and definitely helped NK with having a highly visible star being personal friend with Kim, but hey Rodman is not a brainiac.

otterley6• 4 years ago

Dennis Rodman didn't break the law by the mere act of visiting North Korea and being friendly with Kim. As far as I can tell, the only time he may have acted questionably was a suspicion of bringing in some luxury goods (https://www.si.com/si-wire/2014/01/24/dennis-rodman-sanction...), but it doesn't seem like that case was pursued.

A4ET8a8uTh04• 4 years ago

To an extent, I wonder if this is the fear of the unknown. Here is a guy, who actually seems to understand the 'magic' of crypto. God only knows what he could do with dangerous knowledge like that.

I am not foreign policy, NK, crypto, or national security expert, but it is not about safety. It is about sending a message at a time when US engages in very heavy sanctions effort ( currently against Russia ).

From that perspective, as sad as it sounds even as I type it, Virgil is a sacrifice government makes to send a message.

I too feel his mind locked behind bars is a terrible waste.

water-your-self• 4 years ago

What 'magic' is there in crypto.

Besides, cryptography as a munition is a known meme in the right circles. This is textbook what not to do.

mattnewton• 4 years ago

His mind behind bars is a total waste but I don't see anything magical about what he did. Replace "unit of cryptocurrency" above with "duffel bag of diamonds" or any other store of value and it's transparently illegal.

beaconstudios3• 4 years ago

He's helping an enemy state to avoid sanctions - countries will always prosecute cases like that.

If he didn't want his mind locked behind bars, he probably shouldn't have done what he did. I'm sure he's a smart guy, but this was not a smart move.

mtoner232• 4 years ago

Victimless? North korea is not a victimless country. There's a reason why they are sactioned. He clearly broke a big and important law and knew he was doing it. idk what else one would expect

thereddaikon2• 4 years ago

Yeah I don't see how anyone could consider it victimless. By helping North Korea circumvent sanctions he indirectly has blood on his hands. This is a country that sentences multiple generations of a family to work camps.

Epiphany212• 4 years ago

North Korea isn't sanctioned because of human rights violations. The US doesn't even care for its own citizenry sufficiently. Why would American politicians care about the plight of hungry people half the world over?

North Korea is sanctioned because they won't let Amazon, McDonald's, Netflix, BlackRock, Google, and a myriad of other highly destructive and financially motivated corporate entities run amok in their country.

Edit: Downvote it all you want. Nobody will disprove what I've said here.

janmo• 4 years ago

Just look at how the US treats Assange and Chelsea Manning. Starts wars on false pretences that killed hundreds of thousands (Irak). So you could argue that helping the US is in some form also having blood on your hands.

Crypto, Blockchain etc... is apolitical, it can be used for bad and good. Sanctions on N. Korea have starved people there to death.

istjohn• 4 years ago

Personally, I support imprisoning anyone who helps subvert sanctions against a despotic state pursuing nuclear weapons.

qbasic_forever• 4 years ago

Looking forward to see how you'll imprison the German government for continuing to purchase oil from Russia through shell companies like Gazprombank.

zopa2• 4 years ago

No issue with your main point, but "pursuing nuclear weapons" is such a strange and revealing phrase. North Korea has nuclear weapons. They've had nuclear weapons for at least 16 years (probably over 20). The last best chance to roll back their nuclear program was in the mid-aughts, and it didn't work.

Lots of good and useful steps we could pursue to reduce tensions and make an accidental nuclear war on the Korean peninsula less likely, even with a regime as awful as the one in Pyongyang. But being a superpower means never needing to admit we've lost at something, I guess.

tediousdemise• 4 years ago

Let's put emotions aside and look at the situation. This man is an expert in his field and possesses a lot of knowledge. He doesn't have to share this information with anyone, but he does so for the advancement and progression of society. Sharing information in this scenario was evidently a crime.

How did we get to the point where knowledge sharing lands you in prison? It's because we have mindless shells of human beings in society, the type of people that would call this man a traitor. Let me set something straight: if you are a citizen of a country, it doesn't imply that you love and support your country. You are likely a citizen simply because you were born and trapped there. If you have an urge to defend and protect an imperialistic, globally-dominating sack of shit like the United States Government, you're part of the problem.

Nationalism is a disease.

micromacrofoot• 4 years ago

It benefits society because Virgil will now likely think a lot harder before attempting to do something so foolish. He thought he was flying under the radar and possibly teaching North Korea how to avoid sanctions.

starwind4• 4 years ago

I don’t see how this benefits society in any way.

It sends a message to those would otherwise help North Korea (or Russia or Iran) of "don't violate sanctions."

boc• 4 years ago

If you helped smuggle $1M in cash across the NK border you'd also be arrested and convicted for helping to evade sanctions. If anything crypto-enthusiasts should be happy to hear that the US government treats crypto as a legitimate means of moving money between nations, and punishes actors accordingly.

I'm glad he's a nice guy based on your interactions, but he knowingly tried to enrich an totalitarian state that has successfully built offensive nuclear weapons and is actively testing ICBMs. That's insanely anti-social behavior which endangers the lives of millions of innocent people in the region. He deserves those 5 years. You can't hide behind the curtain of victimless crypto-evangelism while also admitting in text convos that you're likely helping them evade sanctions.

matheusmoreira• 4 years ago

If anything crypto-enthusiasts should be happy to hear that the US government treats crypto as a legitimate means of moving money between nations, and punishes actors accordingly.

Cryptocurrencies being easy to move is old news. It would be much more interesting to discover that some cryptocurrency is actually immune to government sanctions.

Monero has shown hints of this. US treasury tried to sanction a wallet and ended up sanctioning a transaction hash.

https://www.treasury.gov/ofac/downloads/sdnlist.txt

Digital Currency Address - XMR 5be5543ff73456ab9f2d207887e2af87322c651ea1a873c5b25b7ffae456c320;

https://localmonero.co/blocks/search/5be5543ff73456ab9f2d207...

tptacek9• 4 years ago

Leaving aside the questions of whether this is a victimless crime, amply addressed by sibling comments, I'd like to point out that people like Virgil Griffith benefit from these sympathetic assessments, in large part for being part of our in-group, but most defendants do not. You wouldn't want to live in a system where these kinds of sentiments actually controlled even more than they already do.

jacquesm6• 4 years ago

People engaging in acts like this should automatically be no longer considered to be part of the 'in group' but part of another group called 'criminals'. And in this case a very special kind of criminal: one that knowingly aids a regime that is beyond despicable.

Brian_K_White2• 4 years ago

If someone is nice but dangerous through lack of judgement, then the nice doesn't matter because the dangerous is still dangerous and has to be dealt with.

He's in prison because he was willing to help hurt the world. It benefits society and we are all safer today because that person was relieved of his ability to act, and because of the warning the example sends to others.

I say that because of the specific factors in this case being about NK, not just because the US (my) government decreed something. IE, I care that he violated everyone else's trust, not that he violated a rule.

edm0nd• 4 years ago

I think it's more about just being a high profile victim to send a public a message.

He openly defied the US government after they denied his travel. In a big F YOU, he still went anyway and did his thing. US government cant allow people to do such things so they had to throw him in prison. He should have just 'anonymously' video conferenced in if he really wanted to give the talk. It sucks but thats why he's in prison. Cant make the US government look foolish. He also should never have agreed to be interviewed by FBI agents without a lawyer.

NK has very talented hacking teams that have stolen $400M+ in crypto (in 2021 alone) as a way to fund themselves and evade financial sanctions. Virgil def got put on the US gov radar at which point he certainly became a causality of this cyber war.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-59990477

tomatowurst2• 4 years ago

How in the world do you see this victimless? North Korea has been violating human rights in it's own borders and South Korea. It has nukes pointed at Seoul holding it and US troops hostage.

I can't believe he only got 5 years in jail for this. It should've been life imprisonment for aiding and abetting terrorist organizations like North Korea.

Can you say the same for someone caught laundering money for Hamas or ISIS? That it's a victimless crime?

ttybird28• 4 years ago

"How in the world do you see this victimless?"

Just because NK has victims does not mean that his actions have victims as well.

"It has nukes pointed at Seoul"

Every nuclear country has their nukes pointed at somewhere. US included.

"holding ... US troops hostage"

I really do not get what you mean by this.

"It should've been life imprisonment"

It is easy to call for absurd amounts of vengeful punishment towards someone that poses no danger.

"for aiding and abetting terrorist organizations like North Korea"

I think that your definition of "terrorist organization" is too wide. Might as well call the US a terrorist organization at that point.

"Can you say the same for someone caught laundering money for Hamas or ISIS? That it's a victimless crime?"

He did not launder money. He just did a cryptocurrency presentation.

sangnoir• 4 years ago

Five years in prison seems like a disproportionate punishment for an arguably victimless crime

It's not victimless: the United States (government) is the victim, albeit one that's not particularly sympathetic.

Just because the victim is diffuse/a collective doesn't mean the wrongs against it are victimless - this is about as victimless as handing over nuclear secrets to another country (in quality, not severity).

jacquesm6• 4 years ago

I would say the people of NK are the victim of anything that further strengthens the regime there.

gnulinux• 4 years ago

What? North Korean government is the most totalitarian, brutal, ruthless state in the world today. You can't just play "there is no victim" card when you illegally help out an enemy government like that. Even if you're ideologically or for some other reason inclined to support NK, you need to understand that being a US citizen makes your actions extremely impactful on world stage. It seems like Virgil was truly in a position to help NK, which makes him responsible.

I think the punishment is not nearly enough. I believe the same thing should be done to people helping Russia evade sanctions too.

chatmasta2• 4 years ago

This argument would be more convincing if he provided material support to NK and didn’t simply relay publicly available information. It seems he’s been sanctioned primarily for his speech, not selling weapons or purchasing contraband. And it’s not like he was divulging state secrets.

Anyway, the conviction mostly makes sense to me. The sentencing seems disproportionate.

m3kw92• 4 years ago

“ I don’t see how this benefits society in any way.” The law breaks down when you start giving exceptions to the law arbitrarily

madacol• 4 years ago

If it's not arbitrary, then why stop there?

Why not imprison every cryptocurrency developer?, they are all enabling a new way to avoid sanctions, some much better than others

Where do you draw the line so that it's not arbitrary?

some_random5• 4 years ago

Yeah, a victimless crime.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking_in_North_Kor...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_North_Korea

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwalliso

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea_and_weapons_of_mas...

nyolfen2• 4 years ago

interesting. let's see the CCP's human rights record

w74• 4 years ago

Don't forget

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_abductions_of_Jap...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_abductions_of_Sou...

paxys4• 4 years ago

So, people shouldn't face consequences for criminal actions because they are nerdy and good with computers? That's not how the real world works. Aiding a dictatorship in evading sanctions is very far from "victimless".

stuntkite• 4 years ago

This is a weird event that it's going to take me a long while to form an opinion on. I just... don't know what to say or think about this. That isn't a thinly veiled condemnation. I genuinely don't know what to think about this but it's clearly something that needs to be evaluated very critically and involves so many things that are so... of their time and place.

starwind4• 4 years ago

From Coindesk:

Judge Castel read a series of text messages and emails from Griffith in which the defendant admits to sharing information with North Korea for the express purpose of helping the repressive Kim regime evade sanctions.

https://www.coindesk.com/business/2022/04/12/former-ethereum...

aaomidi2• 4 years ago

If the national security of the country is going to be in trouble because of a presentation then uh, lol.

danielvf• 4 years ago

According to the original complaint, a few months after being interviewed by an FBI agent on returning from his trip to North Korea, Griffith had the following conversation over text messages:

Griffith: I need to send 1 [REDACTED UNIT OF CRYPTOCURRENCY] between North and South Korea. Other Guy: "Isn't that in violations of sanctions?" Griffith: It is.

A few day later, also in text messages to someone else:

Someone: What interest does North Korea have in cryptocurrency? Griffith: Probably avoiding sanctions... who knows."

It looks like it wasn't just speaking at a conference after being denied permission from the US that got him in trouble, it looks like both before and after the trip he was working on a variety of ways to get the North Korean government more onboard with cryptocurrency, including discussions about mining ventures, moving funds in and out of the country, and offering connections with other cryptocurrency people.

wnevets2• 4 years ago

So the title is incredibly misleading?

tommek4077• 4 years ago

I've read it as a time reference. He got trialed after the conference.

xtracto• 4 years ago

I need to send 1 [REDACTED UNIT OF CRYPTOCURRENCY] between North and South Korea

I find this fascinating. How can you send any crypto between one country and the other? In reality, everyone who is using crypto is doing the transaction in every country where a validator/node is running. There is no concept of "sending BTC between Mexico and the USA". There may be a concept of someone paying USD money to somebody else to write something in the blockchain (i.e. write a transaction that says to move some BTC from Wallet A to Wallet B).

jaywalk2• 4 years ago

You're probably reading too deeply into it. Remember, North Korea is mostly firewalled off from the worldwide Internet, so that's most likely where the problem begins.

arcticbull4• 4 years ago

You're sending cryptocurrency from a wallet belonging to an individual physically present in country A to one belonging to an individual physically present in country B. It's not so much where the wallet is, obviously, but where the people using it are.

genidoi• 4 years ago

You don't even need a validator/node running in your country -- another standard node merely needs to hear about it, run the standard bitcoin-core code for tx propagation to its connected peers (happens automatically ofc.) and it will be included in the next block if network congestion conditions permit miners to do so.

Interestingly, this leads to a startling scenario if you use an 'advanced' client such as Electrum, where you have the ability to create & sign a valid transaction, before broadcasting it. During that time, which is ofc defined entirely by your decision to hold off broadcasting the TXO, the transaction 'exists' but isn't recorded in the blockchain. In fact anyone who can get ahold of that transaction data (not to be confused with your private key) can send it off to the network, and it will be registered in the next block. So a valid transaction, once signed by the corresponding private key, is almost entirely removed from the signor, and the decision to broadcast it can be viewed as a seperate one altogether from signing.

ashtonbaker• 4 years ago

This is indeed fascinating, but is it unique to crypto? Seems like analyzing any electronic transfer like this would get you into a discussion of which bits are stored where on earth. If you're doing something which transfers value to a party under sanctions, and you're publicly announcing that as your intent, then I think courts are unlikely to be interested in metaphysical discussions like this.

vkou4• 4 years ago

Practically, no.

If I were committing, say, fraud, by sending an email from foo@gmail.com to bar@gmail.com, with both me and the recipient being in the United States - even if the connection between the Google datacenters is physically routed through Canada, you'd have a hell of a time convincing a judge and jury that I'm committing international fraud.

The owner of the wallet is what's important, not the implementation detail. The legal system cares a great deal about intent, because it isn't interested in playing rules-lawyer with wise-asses.

joshcryer• 4 years ago

Where ever the private keys reside is where the crypto resides. It's pretty simple.

inopinatus• 4 years ago

Fundamentally, law cares about the beneficiaries and intentions, especially as these pertain to rights and obligations. The mechanisms are a technical detail.

jacquesm6• 4 years ago

The same argument was trotted out when evaluating (in the early days of the web) a crime had committed if 'the internet' had been involved because the internet was global. But that didn't hold any water and I don't think in a world defined by 'endpoints' it is going to matter much here. Who verifies a transaction isn't relevant, who is the ultimate beneficiary and who is the sender are the relevant bits.

kube-system4• 4 years ago

When I swipe my credit card at a store, I say "I spent money at the store", not "I transferred bits in a bank's datacenter somewhere"

Colloquially, when people talk about transfers of wealth, they talk in terms of the people who they belong to, not the literal physical manifestation of the transaction.

levi-turner• 4 years ago

Source for those curious about this: https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/press-release/file/1222646...

outworlder5• 4 years ago

It is interesting that the cryptocurrency in question is not named (simply referred to as "Cryptocurrency-1").

Possibly because there are ongoing investigations about it? If this was bitcoin, they would likely state that.

mzs2• 4 years ago

Yep starts on page 6 - sure DPRK I'll do this crime for you so that you can blackmail me into further service for the rest of my life.

https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/press-release/file/1222646...

bell-cot• 4 years ago

How far down the "flew 8,000 miles to get there, climbed over the barbed wire fence, licked both his thumbs, and pressed them against the shiny parts labeled 'DANGER! 25,000 VOLTS!'..." rabbit-hole-of-stupid should one have to go, before it's 100% okay for me to stop caring whether or not his sentence was just?

mywittyname2• 4 years ago

Five years seems pretty mild when you consider the chief purpose of sanctions is to provide an alternative to war as a means of settling disputes. And this man is willfully undermining the ability of his country to levy sanctions.

Surely actively undermining the security of ones country is a serious offense.

victor9000• 4 years ago

I'm not sure about the exact threshold, but in this case we have definitely crossed it.

vsareto• 4 years ago

"Man involved in community that regularly gets away with illegal shit surprised when he goes to jail for illegal shit"

I'm definitely not defending him, but I can see why he'd feel confident not getting caught

adfhdfhdryheryh• 4 years ago

This might qualify as high treason, as defined in the Constitution rather as used as an insult. The U.S. and North Korea are still technically at war, and this act was definitely aiding the North Korean government.

djsdlkfjgdkjg• 4 years ago

Right? Anyone can see this case have too much evidence.

you don't need two brain cells to see that either A) guy was a dumbdumb and nothing he said could have been better than leaning it on tiktok with a dance on top; or B) he knows the stuff and would never say something as dumb as this.

...My guess is that they didn't even had to fabricate this. Having access to all digital data from someone for years, they could probably find that conversation on my grandma's facebook memes if they wanted to frame her instead.

sneak4• 4 years ago

He was imprisoned for teaching. You have to construct quite a mental abstraction for that to be a legitimate criminal offense.

mulmen• 4 years ago

The bottom. We should all care about justice.

pwdisswordfish9• 4 years ago

[REDACTED UNIT OF CRYPTOCURRENCY]

???

DavidVoid• 4 years ago

Yeah, it doesn't exactly seem like a William Worthy[1] type of scenario.

If you actively aid a country in avoiding financial sanctions† then you pretty much only have yourself to blame when you eventually get thrown in prison for a few years.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Worthy#Right_to_travel...

†: Medical and food sanctions are a different question imo.

yesbut2• 4 years ago

I think it is well understood that with the way political hierarchies are structured, economic sanctions always impact the people with the least amount of power before anyone of the insulated power wielding people at the top lose any sleep.

I'm not even sure historically that economic sanctions have ever resulted in the proclaimed goals of the sanctions. How long have we had economic sanctions on NK? Has the result been our stated goals of the economic sanction?

xnx• 4 years ago

Sounds like some light treason.

haltingproblem• 4 years ago

I speculate, that there are plenty of North Koreans living in South Korea and perhaps even the US who send funds to the family members in N. Korea. Are they all guilty of evading sanctions regime and can be sentenced to prison? Does this extend to any country that does trade with North Korea? North Korea has a pretty advanced missile program and actively trades in them with many countries including those which are not un-friendly to the US.

I don't know how this makes sense for just making an presentation. On the other hand, I don't know how the Feds will let him get away with sending 1 [REDACTED UNIT OF CRYPTO] between N and S Korea. You cant stop Pakistan or Iran from trading with N. Korea but you can stop an ordinary American. We live in a weird world.

jwarden• 4 years ago

I have learned to expect almost any mainstream media headline with the word “after” to be misleading. “After” does not literally mean “because”, so it’s not a lie. But people read it that way.

“Putin condemned by west after attending anti-Nazi rally.”

“Ted Bundy sentenced to life in prison after misogynistic comment.”

nickysielicki2• 4 years ago

The founders of this country are rolling in their graves. Every part of this story. All he did was go to another country and spread truthful information.

"The most important feature of blockchains is that they are open. And the DPRK can't be kept out no matter what the USA or the UN says,"

This is conspiracy? Is telling someone that a gun can kill now considered conspiracy to murder, too? Is it really the stance of the US government that North Korea knew enough about cryptocurrency to hold a cryptocurrency conference, but that they wouldn’t have been capable of evading sanctions if not for this man speaking this sentence?

And while I’m at it, free citizens should not have to ask permission from the government for where they are allowed to go. In free societies, if the other country lets you in you can go.

We are not a free country. Half of a decade! Over 5% of his life, gone. Unbelievable.

jp57• 4 years ago

Some of the founders of this country were responsible for the Alien and Sedition Acts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_and_Sedition_Acts

JohnWhigham• 4 years ago

Seriously, the weird veneration we have for the founders is very bizarre mainly because once they got in power, they largely acted like any other ruler.

A4ET8a8uTh04• 4 years ago

It may surprise you, but providing information to sanctioned entities that could help them avoid sanctions is something Treasury does not like and it is explicitly listed as something that could land you in trouble.

It does not help that Virgil, with his own words, seem to indicate that he was aware that this could help evade sanctions.

In a sense, it is a little like openly saying you are aware this car was used for robbery. Obviously, we can easily argue that is not a good comparison at all, but in essence that is what is happening.

jollybean• 4 years ago

Helping mass murderers with Nuclear Weapons avoid sanctions that are in place because they are ... mass murderers, is the issue here.

Not arbitrary knowledge.

Nobody is being arrested for giving Crypto talks otherwise.

causi• 4 years ago

All he did was go to another country and spread truthful information.

So did the Rosenbergs. So did Ephialtes of Trachis. I know we've been enjoying a few decades of touchy-feely existence but collaborating with the murderous enemies of your nation traditionally gets you hanged for treason. Five years is a relative slap on the wrist.

clucas• 4 years ago

All he did was go to another country and spread truthful information.

Compare these two statements:

"Mr. Kim, you can transfer money between bank accounts using wire transfers!"

and

"Mr. Kim, if you wire money to this bank account and paper the transaction in this specific way, no one will know you are evading sanctions!"

Both are "spreading truthful information." One is illegal, and one isn't. I think most people can figure out which is which, and I don't think that just changing the underlying medium from "bank account" to "crypto wallet" muddies the issue at all.

jvanderbot3• 4 years ago

I think you're over-reacting. Stories like this tend to be rorschach tests, and it's easy to see what you believe in these vague details.

In fact, it appears he was helping NK avoid sanctions by using crypto, in an effort to increase crypto acceptance in NK.

The details are (apparently) in the original complaint. Bad journalism/summaries strike again?

It looks like it wasn't just speaking at a conference after being denied permission from the US that got him in trouble, it looks like both before and after the trip he was working on a variety of ways to get the North Korean government more onboard with cryptocurrency, including discussions about mining ventures, moving funds in and out of the country, and offering connections with other cryptocurrency people.

nickysielicki2• 4 years ago

Well you’ll have to forgive me because TFA mentioned none of that.

Jerrrry• 4 years ago

The founders of this country are rolling in their graves. Every part of this story.

Some of them were put in their graves, for similar reasons - treason is treason.

All he did was go to another country and spread truthful information.

This is nearly a non-sequitur. Analogous to, "All he did was goto another country to take advantage of the lower age of consent," which is objectively true, but blatantly illegal.

This is conspiracy? Is telling someone that a gun can kill now considered conspiracy to murder, too?

Yes, telling someone the whereabouts and function of a lethal weapon in the known context of a premeditated murder is obviously conspiracy.

Is it really the stance of the US government that North Korea knew enough about cryptocurrency to hold a cryptocurrency conference, but that they wouldn’t have been capable of evading sanctions if not for this man speaking this sentence?

If the argument here is "how can the mouse be charged for moving the mountain," then that is excusing, trivializing, and absolving actions unduly. How little treason is too much? Just a couple national security secrets okay?

And while I’m at it, free citizens should not have to ask permission from the government for where they are allowed to go. In free societies, if the other country lets you in you can go.

You actually do not need a passport to leave, or come back, from and to, the United States. You may find it isn't frictionless, however.

We are not a free country. Half of a decade! Over 5% of his life, gone. Unbelievable.

I agree, he shouldn't be locked up. He should had been sentenced to hanging, from the neck.

ttybird28• 4 years ago

"treason is treason"

I find the idea that someone who has not pledged their allegiance to a particular country can commit treason against said country to not make much sense.

"Just a couple national security secrets okay?"

He shouldn't have access to any such secrets afaik.

"I agree, he shouldn't be locked up. He should had been sentenced to hanging, from the neck."

I understand that it is easy to say such things online, especially since it is hard to humanize someone that you have only seen being talked about in various sites, but I think that you treat human lives way too cheaply, especially for something as minor.

gmuslera• 4 years ago

What if he did the exact same presentation in youtube, and in NK they saw that presentation? What if someone in NK downloaded the open source implementation of that blockchain, participated on it, or even mined quite a few coins?

Could be argued the same about any open source program (and their developers) dealing with encrypted information in any way?

What was the problem? Going in person? Answering questions in the same way that he would do to any other person? Giving a "forbidden hint" that is basically spam all over internet by now?

I don't care about crypto, but I do care about what this precedent implies.

mtoner232• 4 years ago

Read the article, he knowingly broke sanctions rules sending money across borders

starwind4• 4 years ago

What if he did the exact same presentation in youtube, and in NK they saw that presentation?

If it was general information about how Blockchain can be used to evade sanctions, it would probably be fine as long as he was reporting how it could be done and not encouraging it.

What if someone in NK downloaded the open source implementation of that blockchain, participated on it, or even mined quite a few coins?

Almost certainly not a problem. His tool is legal and he can't control other people taking it and using it to commit crimes.

What was the problem?

His intention was the problem. The point of his talk was to help the North Koreans use crypto to evade sanctions. In law, intentions matter. There's a massive legal difference between hitting a pedestrian with your car and running down a pedestrian with your car, even if the outcome is exactly the same. The first is an accident, the second is assault.

Judge Castel read a series of text messages and emails from Griffith in which the defendant admits to sharing information with North Korea for the express purpose of helping the repressive Kim regime evade sanctions.
What the judge found most damning, perhaps, was a photo of Griffith presenting at the conference, wearing a traditional North Korean suit and standing in front of a blackboard on which it read “No sanctions!” with a smiley face.

https://www.coindesk.com/business/2022/04/12/former-ethereum...

I don't care about crypto, but I do care about what this precedent implies.

That the intentions of the defendant matter? I have bad news for you, you find this Hammurabi's code and the Old Testament

drc500free3• 4 years ago

In law, intentions matter.

This is almost always the sticking point when people from tech misunderstand law.

The fact that computers do not understand intent is fundamental to learning code. I think that leads to a lot of tech folks not groking that one of the primary functions of the legal system is to systematically determine intent.

woah4• 4 years ago

That's what I thought at first too, but no, it's much more ridiculous and openly criminal.

"The document also includes [...] photos of Griffith, clad in a traditional-style North Korean suit, writing on a white board, on which “No sanctions!” was written with a smiley face."

https://www.coindesk.com/business/2022/04/11/former-ethereum...

mcphage• 4 years ago

What if he did the exact same presentation in youtube, and in NK they saw that presentation? What if someone in NK downloaded the open source implementation of that blockchain, participated on it, or even mined quite a few coins?

I guess if he hadn't committed a crime, then he probably wouldn't have been arrested.

tofuahdude7• 4 years ago

The precedent here is that if you deliberately and clearly help a sanctioned company against the laws of your own nation, you will suffer the consequences.

There's nothing here about the random other ways of passively sharing information. It isn't a crime to have posted a video on youtube that gets watched in North Korea. Its obviously a crime to physically go to North Korea and intentionally teach them how to evade sanctions.

What about that is related to the precedent you're talking about? You can't compare apples to oranges and call the apple orange.

tomphoolery• 4 years ago

He should be in jail for longer. What a traitor.

behringer• 4 years ago

Imagine knowing literally anything about north Korea and wanting to help that government. He should be put away for life for aiding crimes against humanity.

RobertRoberts• 4 years ago

What if the news about NK is not entirely unbiased? (I have no proof either way, just asking the question)

Edit: People are taking my comment wrong. I am asking this because there are a lot of assumptions people have, I know almost nothing about NK, and the comment I replied to seemed somewhat irrational, a little reactionary and certainly vindictive.

s1artibartfast23• 4 years ago

You can know that North Korean government does bad things but still be against sanctions. It is not self evident that broad sections help the situation or the people of NK.

chrisco255• 4 years ago

Lol what if by spreading crypto knowledge in totalitarian states, you give people in those states a viable way to preserve their income and assets in a way that no other asset class can? Imagine someone trying to protest or escape a regime imposing capital controls on citizens such as North Korea or Canada. What if, those citizens could simply memorize or encode a 12-24 word phrase that could preserve their net worth against all forms of tyranny? What if by doing so, you create the conditions that lead to the eventual collapse or reform of said totalitarian state?

glerk• 4 years ago

Sanctions have achieved nothing but isolate North Korea, ruin the lives of generations of innocent people and entrench an authoritarian ruling class. Sanctions are a crime against humanity.

tomatowurst2• 4 years ago

I'm no lawyer but I can only dream that they might find more stuff to throw the book at him but somehow i doubt this.

How you go and help a country that your own country is at war with, starves women and children, sends a prisoner's entire family to prison camps for three generations where do all sorts of horrible things and spend only 5 years in prison.

People have been sent to prison far longer just because they had a bag of weed on them.

ipaddr7• 4 years ago

The santions are resposible for starving women/children. Should he be in prison for helping children eat?

dahdum3• 4 years ago

The sanctions are intended to exacerbate the destitution and starvation in North Korea in order to provoke political upheaval. They are also just the current strategy, and have been ineffective from a humanitarian perspective.

I wouldn’t undermine them personally, but I understand how a rational person could come to believe it was even a moral obligation to do so.

yesbut2• 4 years ago

Can't NK get all of this content from YouTube lecture videos?

throwaway0x7E6• 4 years ago

it's hilarious to see reddit/HN types spit out neocon warhawk soundbites like that when something hits a nerve

toomuchtodo• 4 years ago

Mods: Better link: https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/united-states-citizen-p...

Better title: "United States Citizen Pleads Guilty To Conspiring To Assist North Korea In Evading Sanctions"

mzs2• 4 years ago

or this for the sentencing itself: https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/us-citizen-who-conspired-assi...

cormacrelf4• 4 years ago

Yes, the pleading is from September last year.

wolverine8766• 4 years ago

Business Insider isn't a great source, but I don't like primary sources: They will be very biased in their own interest. A good secondary source can provide context, information from sources that disagree or have other perspectives or concerns, etc. That's one reason Wikipedia requires secondary sources.

otterley6• 4 years ago

HN guidelines require primary sources.

People can post those alternate views and links to supporting articles in the comments.

cormacrelf4• 4 years ago

This is like... the weirdest post to bring that up on. DoJ announcements are some of the driest, most precisely worded press releases from any organisation on the planet. You could not hope for a better primary source.

When you read "co-conspirators", did you think oh, DoJ is biased, they're using heavily charged terms to make us feel a certain way? They aren't! He was charged with a conspiracy offence. That's what the people he conspired with are called.

insulfrable• 4 years ago

Come on! The man already got a PhD! Doesn't that count as time served?

erdos4d2• 4 years ago

I was under he impression that NK already had a rather sophisticated cryptocurrency capability and was already using it to evade sanctions, as well as for criminal operations. I mean, anyone who can install software can send/receive cryptocurrency, it's trivial. This seems more like a political prosecution than about any material harm the guy did.

jokethrowaway3• 4 years ago

Not that I'm particularly fond of one mafia gang or the other (yes, the USA government is less damaging to its citizens compared to North Korea - but they are both evil aggressors), but this is a weird hill to die on for Griffith.

Why do something so blatantly illegal? I understand disrespecting the made up laws some idiot bureaucrats come up with, but I don't understand allowing their hired guns to lock you up for 5 years.

tptacek9• 4 years ago

Called it. :)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21666694

Doing the guidelines sentence exercise is sort of fun, in a nerd-snipey way, and is a way to understand a bit of how federal criminal law works for us non-lawyers.

tinybrotosaurus2• 4 years ago

And what exactly one exercises by doing that?

tptacek9• 4 years ago

I'm not sure I understand the question, but the exercise I'm talking about is pulling up the federal sentencing guidelines and working out a guideline sentence.

dionidium• 4 years ago

Tech nerds (like myself) tend to think in terms of software and protocols. "If the server responds with a 200 OK to your request, then that means by definition that it gave you permission!" But this is a reminder that that's basically absurd. The government can actually just lock you up for violating the law and it doesn't matter what the stupid protocol says.

wolverine8766• 4 years ago

Here's a NY Times from the time of the arrest which has many relevant details:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/02/nyregion/north-korea-virg...

kache_• 4 years ago

why people mess with the government, I do not know

pay your damn taxes! And don't defect sanctioned research to unfriendly enemy states!

tofuahdude7• 4 years ago

It seems like such a low bar! "Don't break federal law by expressly teaching sanctioned nations how to bypass YOUR OWN COUNTRY'S rules" seems like table stakes on passable intelligence.

I cannot believe how many people in these comments are defending this guy.

csours• 4 years ago

From yesterday's Money Stuff (not about this incident):

"Yeah. There is a vein of crypto libertarianism that imagines that you can have money that is immune from the claims of society, but that’s only really true if the rest of your life is immune from the claims of society. If you live alone on a faraway island and have a lot of weapons then sure right maybe the authorities can’t seize your Bitcoins. (Though you also can’t use your Bitcoins to, like, order pizza delivery.) But if they can toss you in jail until you cough up your Bitcoins, then the Bitcoins aren’t doing that much for you."

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-04-12/will-e...

jl2718• 4 years ago

An interview with a DPRK defector about this: https://unchainedpodcast.com/yeonmi-park-on-why-doing-busine...

siruncledrew• 4 years ago

The main lesson of the story is not that he was using crypto, but that he was conscientiously trying to enrich himself by conducting illegal activities with a sanctioned dictatorship.

Personally, if he’s being this blunt about his intentions, then it shouldn’t be a surprise that his actions landed him consequences.

ttybird28• 4 years ago

Reposting it from the previous thread:

He is the creator of WikiScanner https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WikiScanner https://www.reuters.com/article/us-security-wikipedia-idUSN1...

He also created Tor2web with Aaron Swartz and used to work for the tor team.

Seems like an interesting guy. It's a shame that this happened.

The situation is kinda similar to the one with Bobby Fischer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Fischer

"In 1992, he reemerged to win an unofficial rematch against Spassky. It was held in Yugoslavia, which was under a United Nations embargo at the time. His participation led to a conflict with the US government, which warned Fischer that his participation in the match would violate an executive order imposing US sanctions on Yugoslavia. The US government ultimately issued a warrant for his arrest. After that, Fischer lived as an émigré. In 2004, he was arrested in Japan and held for several months for using a passport that the US government had revoked. Eventually, he was granted an Icelandic passport and citizenship by a special act of the Icelandic Althing, allowing him to live there until his death in 2008."

tofuahdude7• 4 years ago

It's a shame that he took these actions or that he was punished for them?

ttybird28• 4 years ago

For me personally the second. But I am sure that regardless of what we think regarding what he did, we can all agree that it's a shame that someone like that won't be around to work on cool tech due to his sentencing, kinda like with Hans Reiser.

locallost• 4 years ago

If North Korea did this, it would be further proof that they're a dictatorship. But alas, where they have their ruthless dictator, we have our* rule of law.

*I am not American.

I wish I get to see in my lifetime that this vicious misuse of moral values by the US finally ends, but I am not optimistic. By misuse I mean pretending that certain actions are done on moral grounds, while looking the other way when they or their allies do the same things.

m3kw92• 4 years ago

Sure, but NK not already using crypto would be news to anyone.

lizardactivist• 4 years ago

This is wrong on so many levels. The U.S. doesn't get to decide who gets to use blockchain, or whatever technology.

tofuahdude7• 4 years ago

The U.S. did not decide who gets to use it. The U.S. punished a U.S. citizen for violating national law. That's very different from deciding who gets to use a technology.

tinybrotosaurus2• 4 years ago

And what was the purpose of said law again? If i increase the price of cars by a 1000x, am i not deciding who gets to buy and then use one? I'm making it harder to buy cars with the intention of less people using it, just like carbon taxes and the like.

erie• 4 years ago

But some may hint at 'pay back' for old grievances : June 3, 2009. SFI researcher, Virgil Griffith, created a program called WikiScanner, which tracks computers used to make changes and edits to Wikipedia entries. WikiScanner revealed CIA and FBI computers were used to edit topics on the Iraq War and the Guantanamo prison. https://www.santafe.edu/news-center/news/media-channel-cia-a...

29athrowaway• 4 years ago

Are crypto currencies affected by export regulations on cryptography?

daenz2• 4 years ago

How to make a supervillain, step 1

Jokes aside, after 5 years, I'm not sure how he will not hold a serious grudge (if he didn't have one already) against the USA.

hvs• 4 years ago

I think he pretty clearly already didn't agree with the USA since he ignored the fact that they told him he couldn't go and violated sanctions. I'm pretty sure they aren't worried about him "holding a grudge".

daenz2• 4 years ago

I think it would be smart to keep an eye on people who hate the USA, especially when they demonstrate capability and intent.

mort96• 4 years ago

Wait the title calls this guy a cryptography expert but nowhere in the article is that mentioned again? He just seems to be a cryptocurrency researcher?

some_random5• 4 years ago

Good. Sanction busting for one of the most evil regimes in the world is reprehensible.

BXLE_1-1-BitIs1• 4 years ago

Unless NK operatives are totally ineffective when it comes to searching the internet, I have a hard time figuring out how he helped them do something they would have no trouble figuring out for themselves.

nathias• 4 years ago

It's really astounding the lengths people will go to in order to rationalize their dealings with tyrannical regimes, but yea North Korea is obviously also bad.

imchillyb• 4 years ago

The warrior sliced off yet another head. The Hydra wailed and spat its venom, taking scarce notice of the loss. Another head was already growing in its place.

Punishment avails only when the lucrative prospect of crime is diminished by said punishment.

The US government is attempting to slay Hydras with a spoon.

paxys4• 4 years ago

That's an unnecessary flamebait title. He wasn't sentenced for a presentation, but for evading sanctions.

usr1106• 4 years ago

I thought free speech is a holy thing for US citizens. So speaking abroad about something that is not classified secret is a crime?

teleforce• 4 years ago

It's interesting to note that this guy is a graduate of Caltech, the same university as Hal Finney that many people believe to be the founder of Bitcoin[1].

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_bitcoin

jll29• 4 years ago

Virgil is at it again.

I met him at a summer school a couple of years ago, a remarkable character. He developed WikiScanner, which exposed the "beautification" of U.S. politician's Wikipedia pages, conducted from the White House and other government building's IP addresses, which was creative and in the public interest.

I'm surprised that giving a talk about blockchain and crypto-currencies would be considered that sensitive, as the whole Web is full of (open source) software and instructions how to use Ethereum, the ETH currency and related stuff.

Griffith: I need to send 1 [REDACTED UNIT OF CRYPTOCURRENCY] between North and South Korea. Other Guy: "Isn't that in violations of sanctions?" Griffith: It is.

Strange: The Virgil Griffith that I met was very smart, not sure if he would have had such an exchange in an unencrypted medium. He came across as an ultra-tech savvy prankster that had also hacked his high school's payment system (he did not say that because he was prevented under court order, so he just quipped "google me").

Here's an EdTech talks he gave 2019: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymGl84RORLQ

Edit: I was wondering about that strange redaction of "[UNIT OF CRYPTOCURRENCY]". Clearly, as he is working on Ethereum, that one has the ETH currency, so likely it was that. Could the unredacted just say "1 ETH" (not a secret)? Then the transfer would have just been symbolic, not actually evading sanctions at scale. On the other hand if he was (allegedly) talking about 1 million ETH or BTC then it would smell more like a serious crime, assuming for a moment that exchange really happened. [BTW, 1 ETH = ~$3,000 versus 1 BTC = $40,000 at the moment, so the unit makes an order of magnitude difference.]

Eavolution• 4 years ago

If he was trying to help the DPRK government, I have no sympathy for him. But if he was trying to help innocent people get around sanctions I kind of feel different. I've always felt uncomfortable with sanctions affecting individuals who had nothing to do with the reason the countries being sanctioned.

US sentences crypto expert to 5 years after North Korea blockchain presentation

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