Power users mourn features lost in Windows 11 'simplification'

https://www.theregister.com/2021/08/26/windows_11_user_feedback/

by Bender • 5 years ago

66 84 5 years ago

tailspin20197• 5 years ago

In the lovely bubble that I live in, the “power users” haven’t been using Windows for quite some time now.

To Microsoft’s credit, they’ve made it incredibly easy for me, a .NET developer, to not have to use Windows any more. So I am, admittedly, grateful for that.

stillblue• 5 years ago

I've got a few questions.

1) What OS/IDE combination do you use?

2) Is there any reason you've not switched to other languages that are most commonly found in non-windows environments?

3) How is the tooling around .NET diagnostics and memory profiling on the OS you use?

nvrspyx• 5 years ago

They haven't replied yet, so I'll take a stab at their probable answer:

1. Any popular Linux distro (or macOS) and JetBrains' Rider

2. They are probably a .NET developer for their job.

3. JetBrains' tools, like dotTrace Profiler, work really well

chunkyks• 5 years ago

For me,

1) Linux and jetbrains rider

2) 30k sloc heavily v&v'd code? Why? The cost and effort would be insane, and, to MS' credit, the current .NET ecosystem is great.

3) First class citizen. Rider (and the other jetbrains stuff) is as good as any other I've used

In my eyes, as someone who has been exclusively a Linux user since 1998, I now include C# in serious consideration for greenfield projects as well as legacy.

tailspin20197• 5 years ago

To add to the other replies (including the one on my behalf) - VS Code tooling is excellent too on Mac. It's one of the better Electron apps.

Even Microsoft's own Visual Studio for Mac is getting better - but has a long way to go to match Rider.

ThePadawan• 5 years ago

Not parent, but sorta want to pitch in on 2)

C# is a lovely language.

It also has quite a big standard library while not being 10 years behind everything like Java is.

It also has quite good performance (speaking in a web development context) compared to other popular choices like Ruby and Python.

I've personally only switched away from using C# in my free time because I was already writing C# during my day job, and that doesn't feel good (or look good on a CV).

darepublic• 5 years ago

An old programming joke compared c# (ie .net) to a laser cannon strapped to a donkey, that oddly enough doesn't work as well without the donkey. Does this still ring true to you seeing as you are using the laser cannon sans donkey

tailspin20197• 5 years ago

No it doesn't.

The 2021 .NET ecosystem (post .NET Core transition) is a _very_ different beast.

It now works better without the donkey IMHO.

EDIT: In fact I wish they'd just shoot the damn donkey and focus more on the laser cannon.

chaircher• 5 years ago

I definitely wouldn't consider myself a power user but I'm noping out once the Windows 10 machine I'm on reaches the end of it's life

thrower1232• 5 years ago

Hopefully the people that have picked up Classic Shell are able to keep up with the changes when this settles out and unbreak the bad UI decisions that will be forced on us.

https://open-shell.github.io/Open-Shell-Menu/

hulitu3• 5 years ago

Classic shell change just the start menu. The rest of the crap stays the same.

51Cards3• 5 years ago

They also have modules that alter explorer as well (though I don't find them terribly useful). As an "old fogey" in the computer world Classic Shell is one of the first things I install on any Windows machine I set up for myself.

triangleman83• 5 years ago

LTT did a video review and there was a very simplified right click context menu that you could click "more options" and it returned to the Windows 10 style menu. That will be extremely painful to use if that is not customizable.

criddell3• 5 years ago

All the simplifications that they mentioned seem reasonable to me.

Wouldn't Power Users be regular users of things like keyboard shortcuts, AutoHotKey scripts, etc...?

For example, 99% of my time is spent in seven or eight applications and use the Win-# key to jump between them. Win-1 is file explorer, Win-2 is web browser, Win-3 is email, etc...

For lesser used things I hit the Win key and start typing the name of the thing I want and then hit enter as soon as it's highlighted. The organization or size of the Start menu is not important.

The only feature I use that I would lose is small task bar icons, but that isn't exactly a showstopper for me.

If the list is what Windows' most loyal users are complaining about, Microsoft must be doing a good job. If anything, I think these changes will affect more casual users who spend a lot of time inside the start menu.

zarmin• 5 years ago

Win-1 is file explorer, Win-2 is web browser, Win-3 is email, etc...

Is this something you set up natively in windows? Or are you using AHK?

depaya• 5 years ago

That's just default Windows functionality, the numbers correspond to the order of items on the task bar.

neppo• 5 years ago

The numbers 1, 2, 3 refers to the task bar position.

If you order the programs that way on your task bar, then you can access them with these shortcuts.

51Cards3• 5 years ago

The loss of the small task bar icons will be annoying to me. I always fight to minimize UI real estate in my workspace, typically selecting the most compact / small offering that is still workable. I strongly prefer my task bar to remain visible but take up minimal space. I've become "used" to this problem though as UIs have all gone more and more finger friendly (read: big) over time. Definitely a good thing for the right use case, but please don't take away my option to get your application to be as non-instrusive as possible.

mannykannot• 5 years ago

Damn! Those are exactly the features that have allowed me to ignore the clusterfuck that the start menu has become at least since Windows 7.

ectopod• 5 years ago

And worse, the apparent inability to move the taskbar to the right hand side of the screen. This takes up less of the valuable vertical space, but shortens the taskbar so small icons are even more important.

macspoofing4• 5 years ago

I'm glad it works for you and how you use Windows.

criddell3• 5 years ago

I guess my point is that most users spend very little time actively using Windows. When my computer is on, close to 100% of my time is spent in the browser or Visual Studio or email or some other program that requires Windows. I spend very little time in Settings, the Start menu, the device manager, etc.. I would guess File Explorer is my most used part of Windows.

uomopertica• 5 years ago

these changes will affect more casual users

Given the long list of stuff they are changing, there’s a high probability that everyone will come out with at least one annoyance. For me it is the impossibility of showing all the icons in the notification area: it’s a small thing, but I can’t stand having them collapsed.

amelius• 5 years ago

When the iPhone 1 was introduced it was lacking many features, yet nobody complained while there were much more powerful phones on the market already.

wpm2• 5 years ago

Right but this isn’t Windows 1.0. Awful comparison.

hulitu3• 5 years ago

No. Windows 10 was windows 1.0.(same UI plus taskbar). Win 11 will be win 1.1.

Jtsummers2• 5 years ago

When the first iPhone was announced people did complain about its lack of features (no apps? no keyboard? no stylus? no handwriting recognition?). It was a step backward in many ways for those used to Blackberry and Palm devices. However, it was the opening up of the smartphone (though was the first version really a smartphone?) market to a broader audience. It wasn't a regression of an existing Apple product (they had no product equivalent to it yet, unless you go back in time to the non-phone Newton).

Windows 11 is a continuation of an existing product and meant to replace it. Regressions (real or imagined) will get lamentations because, well, they're regressions.

hackmiester• 5 years ago

I recall that a ton of people complained about this, actually...

wpm2• 5 years ago

Quite happy to stay on 10 until 2025.

b0tzzzzzzman• 5 years ago

And past then.

CodeGlitch2• 5 years ago

Windows 10 doesn't feel finished. Why are they already moving to 11?

smt88• 5 years ago

Other than the bifurcated settings, what feels unfinished?

I've read that 11 will actually fix and unify a lot of those disjointed things left in the OS too.

CodeGlitch2• 5 years ago

I've read that 11 will actually fix and unify a lot of those disjointed things left in the OS too.

But that's what I mean. 10 is unfinished. They could do those things in 10.

tompazourek• 5 years ago

After many years of Mac OS X, Apple released macOS 11. So naturally, Microsoft has to follow.

minikites2• 5 years ago

This is too bad. Apple taking the "appliance" path with their computers makes me wish Microsoft would lean into power user features and customization options to play to the strengths and appeal of Windows. I don't think trying to be a worse version of MacOS is a good strategy.

logicalmonster• 5 years ago

Windows is sort of the default computer choice for a lot of normal, non-technical people, so I can understand that Microsoft wants to simplify things for them by taking some inspiration from MacOS.

The problem is that Windows is also used by many businesses, network admins, and tech enthusiasts too.

These users are in conflict.

What Microsoft should be doing in my opinion is using its Windows Home and Windows Professional packages to divide the complexity. Windows Home users can have the simplified experience, and Windows Pro users can have the full power. Wouldn't that make everybody happy?

minikites2• 5 years ago

Windows is sort of the default computer choice for a lot of normal, non-technical people, so I can understand that Microsoft wants to simplify things for them by taking some inspiration from MacOS.

That's a really good point and I agree with your solution. I doubt Microsoft would want to do the work involved in creating essentially two versions of Windows, though.

AlexandrB2• 5 years ago

Windows is sort of the default computer choice for a lot of normal, non-technical people, so I can understand that Microsoft wants to simplify things for them by taking some inspiration from MacOS.

If this is their motivation they have no clue. What messes the most with normal users is changing familiar functions and metaphors. The cost of adapting to changing UI for normal users is much higher than sticking to an older, even less-optimal, one. Sometimes this even causes a loss of function for that user as they give up on trying to relearn e.g. how to make text bold for nth time.

bloopernova• 5 years ago

I gave up on Windows after version 11 got pushed to my personal workstation. I had been using the insiders build that updates weekly.

I loathed that I was getting app suggestions and ads, and there was a greater loss of control over the operating system.

Switched to Fedora latest, haven't looked back.

FridayoLeary2• 5 years ago

They shouldn't be trying to push "apps". I want heavyweight programs and software not cheesy-sounding "apps". Not to mention being gently prodded at every turn to Microsofts own uninspiring ecosystem like i'm stupid.

thaumasiotes3• 5 years ago

I loathed that I was getting app suggestions and ads, and there was a greater loss of control over the operating system.

While it is certainly loathsome, that's not a new feature in Windows 11.

Egoist• 5 years ago

The only thing i really hated is how they pushed their new right click menu.

they still don’t want to pick between their UI. Using the new unfinished UI content to navigate to the old one is just stupid.

flerchin• 5 years ago

This is why we skip every other Windows.

charonn0• 5 years ago

I barely tolerate Windows 10. Windows 11 sounds like it might be the final nail in the coffin.

coldacid• 5 years ago

I'm very glad that Microsoft believes that none of my computers are "good" enough for Windows 11. I'm going to ride Win10 as long as I can, then it's probably off to BSD or Haiku.

FridayoLeary2• 5 years ago

Windows vista had cute options to make the UI look more like older versions of windows. I thought it looked hideous, but i still wonder why MS don't consider it for Windows 11, to let you "change" it to Windows 7 or Xp.

yodon• 5 years ago

The cost to test, support, internationalize, and document those variants would dwarf whatever "value" they might provide.

whywhywhywhy• 5 years ago

Honestly Microsoft really needs to stop listening to this vocal minority.

- This group is why Windows had a trash terminal that didn't even have a right click menu until recently.

- This group is why Windows Explorer is identical to how it was almost 2 decades ago, with the same terrible search and still things like choking when it encounters a folder of MP3s and still unable to handle folders with 1000+ items without choking and loading in new sets every few pages of scroll.

- This group is why resizing windows still has glitching and tearing.

- This group is why most of the admin and system tools are still designed for 800zx600 screens and why device manager flickers and completely redraws just to add 1 item to the tree display.

Stop listening to this group, Apple and Linux have been able to forge ahead and build modern powerful interfaces that actually utilize the hardware properly because they've been able to ignore the screams every time something that is 20 years old changed.

macspoofing4• 5 years ago

I haven't met anyone that didn't want Microsoft to have a better default terminal.

datavirtue2• 5 years ago

I agree...explorer absolutely sucks for what it is. Then I swing over to my other desk and encounter Finder...no wonder Microsoft hasn't bothered to fix explorer...no competition.

macspoofing4• 5 years ago

The fact that the toolbar cannot be repositioned to the top of the screen - really sucks for me.

2Gkashmiri• 5 years ago

cool. they must be following gnome then

yoyohello13• 5 years ago

And Gnome if following Apple. All roads lead to Mac these days it seems.

neverywhere• 5 years ago

Microsoft is trapped by its own success. It is used all over the place and these old uses are hamstringing its ability to innovate because the new OS may not meet the needs of all of its previous use cases.

This has been Microsoft's predicament since probably 2000.

AlexandrB2• 5 years ago

I'm not sure there's any need to "innovate" on the UI in this case. It's a stable, mature product refined for >30 years to suit the desktop use case and billions of people are familiar with it and its metaphors. There's plenty of room for innovation on new features, but why mess with what works UI wise? Seems like change for change's sake.

tailspin20197• 5 years ago

I agree, especially if you compare it to Apple's approach of small, steady, iterative tweaks to the UI.

You can still keep the OS looking fresh and up-to-date without completely reengineering the UI with every OS generation.

Especially as this "complete reengineering" was so so so much worse each time, with additional "new" layers of (incomplete) UI being added on top of legacy UI that would inexplicably still be there. Simply the worst of all worlds.

I'm a big fan of the old Windows 2000 era UI (which partly, amazingly, still exists today), but I have no desire for it to stay around if they can just come up with something fully cohesive and all-encompassing to *fully* replace it with.

jcranberry• 5 years ago

Been using windows 11 for a bit for a while on the dev channel. Seems fine. Only thing that annoyed me was the context menu. I think fairly recently they added the "more options" which expands it to have everything that was there before which is slightly annoying but still fine. Overall I think 10 felt kind of amateurish and perhaps even a bit gaudy and I think 11 looks better. I prefer the new start menu as well.

maydup-nem4• 5 years ago

Start," and it was redesigned (as was Windows 8) by taking inspiration from smartphones

Just exactly how braindead do you have to be to "take inspiration from smartphones" when deveping a PC-centric OS?

As it's all going, it seems like we are going to have smartphone-like PCs a lot sooner than PC-like smartphones.

Anyhow, good thing I am on Linux.

qalmakka• 5 years ago

More than something out of a mobile OS, it quite looks to me like some launcher I've seen on Linux (I don't remember which one was, I've been using Plasma for too long).

traverseda• 5 years ago

Are you using Gnome 3?

maydup-nem4• 5 years ago

Nope, stumpwm. Before that I was using i3. Never even bothered with a DE when I jumped ships.

tenebrisalietum• 5 years ago

The plan was to have the same exact OS on desktops and phones. Around the time Windows RT came out (which was a result of their Windows-on-ARM stuff), that's when they finally stopped using WinCE on their phone hardware and moved to the NT kernel.

Of course that's all moot now since they've given up on phones.

maydup-nem4• 5 years ago

That's good to know, OK, same OS, but keeping the same interface?

Of course that's all moot now since they've given up on phones.

What I rather had in mind was not the interface, but some other things which are "normal" to have on phones: forced updates, impossible to aquire root rights with factory OS, pre-installed shit apps, ads (like on factory-fresh Xiomi, out of the box). So when I saw "ads" and I know the updates are forced, that's where I meant PCs are becoming more like smartphones.

That smartphones are unlikely to become more like PCs is an issue of hardware.

vondur• 5 years ago

I thought they learnt their lesson with Windows 8, where they removed the start menu only for it to return in Windows 10?

maydup-nem4• 5 years ago

maybe, I haven't seen much Windows since 7, which I am still using for occasional gaming and hobby music production : D

datavirtue2• 5 years ago

Much Ado about nothing. Hit windows key, type a few characters, smash the ENTER key. I never even look at the start menu.

Don't encourage them by starting debates over "features." The start menu should damn near read my mind and get out of the way after serving my needs without requiring that I squint at the screen.

Windows 7 was absolute perfection and then it went downhill after that (lightening fast, typing a character or two presented exactly what I needed every time). They have even broken this core feature several times in Windows 10 by cramming in complexity.

CozyBearNotSoy• 5 years ago

This is so irritating. It's like nobody does actual work on computers anymore so UI changes which break muscle/visual memory (and consequently "flow") focus group well.

t0bia_s• 5 years ago

I hope Open Shell will work on Win11 too.

simonblack• 5 years ago

'Simplification' is a word used to hide the fact that there isn't enough funding available to retain sufficient maintenance of those features.

Power users mourn features lost in Windows 11 'simplification'

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