Dating in Delhi when you're poor

https://www.reuters.com/article/delhi-dating-idUSKBN1DU0NE

by hidden-spyder • 5 years ago

358 268 5 years ago

reuters.com

gopalv2• 5 years ago

Some of this stuff looks very poorly sourced or misunderstood.

Marrying within the “gotra” is one of the primary reasons for recurring “honour killing” of lovers in India

I hope not, because it is such a weird upper-caste nit-pick.

they talk about their lives and walk around the park, or eat aloo-chaat or golgappas at a roadside stall

That is such a still frame of the middle class life in Delhi from the 90s. My partner's been dragging me to Green park and AIIMS to revisit places which has stayed running for 25 years.

The 2012 Nirbhaya case had a chilling effect on this for young couples, which is why the trend moved away from being outside and into malls with security cameras.

factorialboy• 5 years ago

Unfortunately Indian media is full of "secular" authors pretending to be liberal but regularly dishing hate against native faiths.

But to be fair, it's not just the news media that's afflicted by this disease, bollywood is no better.

namdnay• 5 years ago

Huh? I don’t think any journalist cares what god(s) you worship , as long as you don’t impose anything on those around you

webmobdev4• 5 years ago

I didn't understand your viewpoint. What exactly are you angry at in believing the author is "dishing hate" - that the author pointed out that marrying within gotras is frowned upon or that people are sometimes killed over it (honour killing)? Both are facts.

random314• 5 years ago

Standard right wing talking point. Liberal authors criticizing the current regime, a Hindu nationalist party, are anti nationals. Here criticism of the BJP or social ills is equated to hatred of Hinduism. The authors might themselves be Hindus, but it doesn't matter.

paxys5• 5 years ago

Yeah that part stood out to me. Honor killings happen for the opposite reason – the sides are too far apart in terms of religion, caste etc. Gotra is an overall minor concern even to hard-liners.

lostlogin• 5 years ago

The 2012 Nirbhaya case

I wasn’t familiar with it but remembered after reading the below link. Warning, it’s horrific.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Delhi_gang_rape_and_mur...

dartharva8• 5 years ago

I hope not, because it is such a weird upper-caste nit-pick.

Honor killing is also a weird upper-caste nit-pick, you know

retrac3• 5 years ago

It's fascinating how much wider the class gap is there, but so many of the same dynamics sound familiar. Parts of it read as very familiar to me. In Toronto, as a guy from a small town and a working class background. It is also very different for me, of course. Ultimately very few Canadians are "poor", in a sense. I could walk into one of our hospitals on one of those dates and be seen for free. Social assistance paid more when I was homeless than that woman earns; though $100 does go much further in Delhi.

But I do remember that disjunction; it's normal, expected, to spend what amounts to a week or a month of my income on a night out. Being gay, the pressure to hide, to go for a date some place far away from home, somewhere you can hopefully blend in, or somewhere private, and where you won't attraction the attention of jeers, usually just jeers but sometimes you worry you'll have to run. Even the bit about McDonald's being too expensive. It is. It's a luxury, though most of us, myself included, tend not to think of it as such. Until you have $80 in your account and a whole week ahead and he wants to get a burger for dinner. $25 is a lot of money suddenly. It's an interesting experience when your friends decide to go out for dinner and your concern with where to go is which location has a menu option with a decent ratio for calories per $ and if the water is free.

I too found poetry to be worth far more than it cost. Trees can be a gift. As can parks. And settings. Many intangible things can be gifts. And it is an art to be learned and practiced, just like the art of selecting and giving physical gifts. And of physical gifts, I discovered long ago that it truly is the thought that counts. Oh, yes, someone will love something that is of monetary value or expensive. But I have received many gifts worth some real money, but the ones where the gift was the thought are the ones I tend to still have. A card when I wasn't expecting one. I still have the thoroughly wrecked chew-toy for my dog gotten by one particular friend who is now gone.

Maybe as a result of our smaller class gap, there is one thing that doesn't ring so true to me. "The girls also don’t have that many expectations." Not here. The boys had big expectations. It's easier to jump over the class gap if you're young and attractive, at least for a while, and pursue the material in exchange for the material, so to speak. I did it too; who doesn't want to go away for the weekend; go out for drinks and not count out the coins?

ipaddr• 5 years ago

It sounds like you are away from home feel a sense of freedom and got sucked into a downtown lifestyle with no budget. I don't understand why out of towners move downtown and only downtown where local people have moved to other areas of the city because of price and affordability. Somehow downtown feels safe because as a tourist that's what you see. For those moving get out of the downtown core and be able to afford your city.

retrac3• 5 years ago

No, I was living in the outer suburbs. Toronto has always been expensive. Nearly all of my income went to the rent on a bedroom and a transit pass the first year. I suppose that is the downtown lifestyle, though.

jdavis703• 5 years ago

I lived in downtown adjacent neighborhoods for years before moving downtown. This isn’t going to be my forever neighborhood but it’s really nice being able to walk to a _wide_ selection of restaurants nearby, be close to well-maintained parks and have multiple transit lines to take into work.

MisterSandman• 5 years ago

As an Indian immigrant now living in Toronto, this comment comes off a bit tone deaf. I don't mean to poor-shame you, but you can not possibly compare yourself to a poor person in India. The difference in the divide is so massive to the point where it's not comparable.

McDonalds is a luxury for most people, even in Toronto. It's just cheaper than most other restaurants, and people don't/can't care about how it impacts their finances. Looking at the amount of food/$ is something most people do, even in Toronto. You aren't special for thinking that.

jessaustin• 5 years ago

Twelve years after they started dating, they married. The family disapproved. Surender’s grandmother and Preeti’s mother were from the same “gotra,” or clan. Hindu clans prohibit marriage within the descendants of an unbroken male line.

The Wiki page on "gotra" suggests they "only" have to go back seven generations (I don't know any of my ancestors beyond five generations and the father of one of my great-grandfathers was never known; would that be scandalous in India?), which seems to imply extreme complication. If each female ancestor has her own unique gotra, in seven generations there would be 64 gotras. Unless there are thousands of gotras, it must be very common for a prospective bride and groom to overlap. Little wonder that arranged marriages are common.

webmobdev4• 5 years ago

From what I recall, some temples / priests / elders keep a record of this within a community. And yeah, that is one of the reasons why marrying outside your community, with or without your parent's consent, is such a big deal in India (not just with the Hindus who subscribe to gotras but also among other communities, as the emphasis on arranged marriages are often on "shared values" between the families. It's harder to determine what values an "outsider" or their family has, as it becomes harder to use your social circles to investigate them. )

gopalv2• 5 years ago

Unless there are thousands of gotras, it must be very common for a prospective bride and groom to overlap.

The brahmin communities have a handful of gothras as I understand it (7 or 8, depending on who you ask).

The relationship matrix is resolved by only tracking a single side of the family tree and making first cousins who are able to marry each other without complication on this topic. So it doesn't directly fix the inbreeding within insular communities, though that was its intention.

My father-in-law spent quite some time investigating this, as my clan is matrilineal in ancestry (still very patriarchal, just brother-sister family unit instead of husband-wife) with a history of cross-marriages from patrilineal men for treaties/allies.

Completely pointless pedigree certificate, felt like I was being picked for breeding instead of an equal partnership.

A dive into this sort of discrimination almost left me wondering why something with political eugenics didn't come out of India. Fears which I still have for the 2040s seeing the CAA and NRC.

valarauko2• 5 years ago

In practice, there really are several dozen gotras (at least among the Brahmins), if not hundreds.

The traditional practice was for Brahmins to declare their exact line of descent alongside the gotra, by naming five noteworthy ancestors (pravara rishis), starting from the top level saptarishi ancestor gotra(one of seven). Some of the saptarishis famously didn't get along, and their descendants are considered incompatible matches for marriage. When considering a marriage alliance from a family with the same top level saptarishi gotra, it was considered acceptable if at least three of the five pravara rishis were different, ie, a distant branch of the family. As families lost their traditions, people identified their nodal pravara rishi as the gotra, which is how most people today know them. In addition, in ancient times the custom was for non-brahmins to state the gotra & lineage of their family priest when performing religious rituals, and ended up adopting them.

chakkepolja3• 5 years ago

In practice, there really are several dozen gotras (at least among the Brahmins), if not hundreds.
Some of the saptarishis famously didn't get along, and their descendants are considered incompatible matches for marriage.

I suppose this is different in Southern clans.

gcells• 5 years ago

I suppose this was an ancient way to ensure genetic diversity and prevent pregnancy losses. There is already quite a bit of evidence that consanguinity leads to miscarriages [0].

[0] https://www.nature.com/articles/jp2011115

chakkepolja3• 5 years ago

Gotra is limited to only certain number of paternal lineages. In South India I see only tracking of one paternal lineage (generally consisting of 2-3 r'shis).

dhruval• 5 years ago

Gotras are purely patrilineal, the mothers gotra doesn’t get passed down to the child.

There are other “rules” as well. But it really depends on the region and community.

There are some communities (for eg. Nairs) who traditionally have matrilineal systems.

So no generic rules for all of India.

This is all gradually breaking down with urbanization. So it’s not some sort of static thing either.

sombremesa13• 5 years ago

My first thought when reading this was hoping that these types of articles will reduce the comments I see on the internet that try and compare Delhi/Mumbai squalor to LA.

Then I read the first comment on this HN thread, which is directly comparing this to Toronto.

So either Westerners don't realize that people in these places are making less money in a month than the middle class person can expect to spend in an average afternoon, or there is some intermediate step of "let me compare this to what I know" that is happening. It's not really enough...you should experience it for yourself (there's also other issues, such as people claiming there's more homeless in LA than in Delhi, not realizing that a lot of effectively homeless people in India aren't classified as such - it'd be like saying you're not homeless in LA if you have a tent or a sleeping bag).

Reminds me of learning a new language, where beginners try to formulate thoughts in their native tongue and produce a direct translation, whereas those who are fluent can skip that step completely.

devoutsalsa• 5 years ago

The mother of a friend on mine in Pakistan was hiring a part-time housekeeper for ~3 hours per day. One housekeeper asked for $40 USD/month, and the mother thought that was too expensive.

kshacker• 5 years ago

Well it depends on 1) the local price and 2) the ability of the mother to pay. She may not be able to afford help with an American minimum wage.

captain_price74• 5 years ago

Here in Dhaka, we pay around 45usd/month for 1.5hr of work per day.

thebean112• 5 years ago

Not disagreeing with your overall point, but amount of money (based on currency exchange rates) is a bad way to compare poverty levels across different areas. It doesn't take into account cost of living which makes a huge difference.

sombremesa13• 5 years ago

I'm not talking about the American middle class in the comparison I make in the GP.

I actually have no idea what you're talking about, because I didn't mention any amount of money at all.

pm908• 5 years ago

Except that cost of living is also pretty high in Indian metros (especially Delhi). This is why most of the residents live in slums: they can't afford permanent/legal housing. From the article:

But nearly half of the city’s population lives in slums without basic services and facilities like drinking water, garbage disposal or a proper drainage system.

chinchilla20203• 5 years ago

Even with cost of living comparisons, an American making minimum wage can easily afford a mobile phone, particularly a cheap $25 phone.

In many parts of the world that mobile phone will require substantial budgeting over several months to afford.

ajmurmann• 5 years ago

there's also other issues, such as people claiming there's more homeless in LA than in Delhi, not realizing that a lot of effectively homeless people in India aren't classified as such - it'd be like saying you're not homeless in LA if you have a tent or a sleeping bag

Sorry, I really cannot avoid going on a tangent because of this.

We seem to talk quite differently about informal housing if it's in the US or west vs. in a poorer country. We have non-profits push for sanitation in "slums" to improve health outcomes. Yet nobody is pushing for bathroom access or garbage removal in "homeless camps". I recently read about a homeless camp in a park in Oregon where the inhabitants cut down trees for materials and fire wood. When does it become a slum and we start treating it like we'd expect poorer countries to treat their slums?

azernik• 5 years ago

Interestingly, my family, coming from a recently-developed country, does compare them to slums.

paxys5• 5 years ago

The one in Portland has a couple dozen people living in it and has existed for maybe a year. It is routinely cleaned up/moved to different locations as well, hence a "camp". The population of a single slum in Mumbai (Dharavi) is over a million and has existed since the 1800s. Are you really concerned that they don't receive the same international attention?

derefr3• 5 years ago

Slum buildings get addresses, are subject to zoning, have mail delivered to them, etc. It’s basically a matter of government recognition of the slum as something that won’t go away.

Though also, much of that recognition comes from the fact that people in a “homeless camp” don’t tend to think of their living arrangement as permanent or the space they occupy as theirs by right; whereas the people living in a slum, do.

If you live in a camp and you’re offered public housing, you’ll usually take it, because the camp wasn’t where you wanted to be.

If you’re living in a slum, you might hold out for city to just improve the slum, because your dwelling in the slum is your home, for better or for worse.

This is where things like the “container house” movement come into play: that demand is mostly driven by people who think of a slum as their permanent home, who want options for improving their dwelling in that slum into something they can be proud of.

cheriot2• 5 years ago

In America, slums and informal housing is destroyed by the city government. See LA's Echo Park for a recent example https://abcnews.go.com/US/police-protesters-clash-sweep-echo...

We have 350m people, 0.5m homeless and lack the political will to build more housing. They are expected to stay out of sight or the municipality will destroy their shelter and often trash their belongings.

Humanity is more cost effective, but doesn't allow us to moralize https://scoop.me/housing-first-finland-homelessness/

/rant

em-bee7• 5 years ago

i would not consider someone who can spend $100 on average in an afternoon to be middle class.

0_____0• 5 years ago

If that's $100 per half day, integrated over a month that comes out to monthly expenditures of $6000/mo, which is solidly middle class. Not working class, but certainly within reach of a low/mid level Facebook employee.

paxys5• 5 years ago

Middle class means different things in different cities, even within the US (and in some cases between cities in a single state). You simply cannot classify someone based on a number alone.

jimbob212• 5 years ago

Did you actually read that comment about Toronto? He immediately prefaces it by saying it isn't in the same realm, but can relate because he's poor in his area as well.

I don't think that YOU realize that it is okay to relate to common feelings without being the most of that thing. The guy from Toronto doesn't have to be the most poor person in the most poor area in order to understand their feelings and talk about his.

You're gatekeeping being poor. What a weird thing to be elitist about.

sombremesa13• 5 years ago

Did you actually read that comment about Toronto?

I did. Now that you have that information, perhaps you can actually read what I wrote.

chinchilla20203• 5 years ago

He is not gatekeeping being poor. He is pointing out that being poor in Toronto is not the same as being poor in Delhi.

You are trying to lump two things together into a category that are not even remotely comparable.

chinchilla20203• 5 years ago

Those of us that grew up in the third world know how ridiculous Americans can be when it comes to these comparisons.

Anyone can get a minimum wage job and earn a relatively high living in the US. In the third world, you can work your ass off, be incredibly successful, and still live in squalor.

762236• 5 years ago

When comparing, don't compare in absolute dollars, but the purchasing power in the local economy.

johncena33• 5 years ago

Then I read the first comment on this HN thread, which is directly comparing this to Toronto.
[...] Reminds me of learning a new language, where beginners try to formulate thoughts in their native tongue and produce a direct translation, whereas those who are fluent can skip that step completely.

Immigrant brown man living in Toronto here. I don't have any dating life. Because dating a brown man is stigmatized, thanks to racism and media representation. My upper-middle class white therapist couldn't believe that I am at the bottom tier in the dating market.

So it's not just some language or cultural barrier. People have hard times understanding the predicaments of people from lower socio-economic strata even when they live in the same city and speak same language.

908B64B1973• 5 years ago

Immigrant brown man living in Toronto here. I don't have any dating life. Because dating a brown man is stigmatized, thanks to racism and media representation. My upper-middle class white therapist couldn't believe that I am at the bottom tier in the dating market.

What did your therapist think was the real issue?

snambi• 5 years ago

There is a difference between the "slums" in India versus the ones in USA. The indian slums are just poor with no infrastructure. you will find the people in the slums to be genuine, kind and hardworking. of course there are exceptions.

The slums in USA are exactly the opposite. The slum dwellers are scary to even look at. They don't work and they are anti social. They disturb the society.

The slums are happening in USA, despite plenty of jobs, government programs and NGOs trying to help them.

I am not one country is better than the other. simply pointing out the differences.

Article such as this are written to make Americans feel good about themselves at the cost of others, while providing absolutely no solution or help to those suffering.

so, either you should help or just shutup.

spoonjim• 5 years ago

Yep - if you see a guy riding a rickety bicycle with a goat slung over his back... think about how he might be one of the wealthier people in his community.

DoreenMichele12• 5 years ago

Many years ago, I read of a study that measured poverty not in terms of income but with metrics like "How many meals per day do you get?" and "What kind of shelter do you have?" It concluded that less than 1/2 of one percent of Americans were poor by standards in India.

When I've repeated that online, on at least one occasion someone who lived in India got mad at me for supposedly promoting negative stereotypes and told me my info was out of date. They seemed outraged.

I spent some years homeless in America. I'm still quite poor and frustrated with that fact.

I don't know what the solution is for trying to promote better cross cultural understanding. I try to focus on how to get the word out in the US that lack of appropriate housing supply is a primary root cause of homelessness in this country. It's shocking how many people insist that lack of affordable housing has nothing to do with homelessness and homeless people are all just crazies and junkies who don't want to get better.

sombremesa13• 5 years ago

I don't know what the solution is for trying to promote better cross cultural understanding.

I think that's just it: trying to promote better cross cultural understanding. That's something I tried with the GP here, but I could probably write up an article to be linked to in such discussions.

metrics like "How many meals per day do you get?" and "What kind of shelter do you have?"

I think this is a good thought, a focus on qualitative differences in lived experience using quantifiable metrics. With that approach you're less likely to offend rather than inform. Might be best to skip the "less than 1/2 of one percent of Americans were poor by standards in India" since it seems to suggest that American poverty isn't "real" poverty.

I would even go so far as to say that communicating the cultural context is far more important than underlining the economics, the former of which TFA is attempting to do.

wil4213• 5 years ago

There’s someone on YouTube I sorta watched from time to time when the pandemic hit. He’s located in Venice beach, German in Venice. He was exposing the homeless issue and lack of government response.

Fast forward to now. The city offered everyone a free place to go and many took it. There were still a lot of people who refused. Now the garbage trucks and police evicted them. The garbage people packed a lot of stuff and put it into storage.

What’s your take? They were offered housing while they get back on their feet and chose not to take it.

908B64B1973• 5 years ago

It concluded that less than 1/2 of one percent of Americans were poor by standards in India.

I have no trouble believing that.

Same thing with the software industry really.

Source control has been mainstream since the 90's, build pipeline, automation and so on. But there are still shops around where they'll look at you funny for suggesting using git, that swear copy-pasting executables in a GUI is an ok way to upgrade and where the versions of languages used are at least old enough to have a legal drink. Not a lot, but they still exist. You won't find any overlap with what's going on in SV over there.

ramraj072• 5 years ago

Grew up in india, spent my twenties in the US, and now back in India. I can give you some potential explanation:

Even though the poor and lower middle class make abjectly low amounts of money, the upper middle class and the rich actually make money comparable to most developed countries. This is reflected in the real estate prices (Chennai, the fourth largest city, has prices comparable to Brooklyn). I can make 200k UsD a year and call myself upper middle class and no one will bat an eye.

While you can kinda isolate yourself from the real poverty, you’re never fully shielded from it. You will see people struggling if you live in India. Then, the only way you can convince yourself you’re not an evil person is by playing some Mental gymnastics. Thus you have people who refuse to accept how outrageous the wealth disparity in India is. Combine this with this misplaced cultural pride that seems comparatively excessive here, and you get people who become belligerent if you mention most Indians are poorer than dirt.

throwthere• 5 years ago

Yesterday someone posted admonishing billionaires who live lives without the sort of day-to-day experiences the rest of us do. They cited their concerns— finding enough free time to do activities, getting along with co-workers, etc. It’s just this great disconnect you run into online— people don’t realize a great deal of the world would see having those [working-class] types of concerns as luxurious and disconnected from their own. It’s just a gap you see a lot of here, you really have to work to remember how bad billions of people have it.

lsiebert• 5 years ago

Generally my sense is that people are not good at measuring their expertise about topics. We infer a lot of data into our world views based on paltry facts and analogy to our own experiences. We think we understand because our minds paper over the lacuna of our knowledge. The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know, and how quick people are to believe that other people's experience is much like their own.

That's why I ask people to cite sources often, or listen to their personal stories, so I can learn more.

retrac3• 5 years ago

I am sorry if my comment was presumptuous or inappropriate. It was not intended to be. I prefaced it with a disclaimer trying to contextualize how I was trying to relate to the story. I am aware I live in a rich country, that food and medical care as such are not an issue by comparison, even as a very poor person. I saw that the woman in the article earns barely a third what I received from the government in social assistance, on top of what I could earn. I try to be aware of that. I have only seen true slums from afar. Perhaps I have failed in that awareness. What I saw was a human story, about trying to find love with little resources and not much social standing. It is a universal theme and I tried to relate to it in that way, to feel what those people feel seeking love and companionship. I'm sorry if that was uncalled for and trying to turn the focus back on my relative privilege and material comfort. It wasn't intended to do so.

sombremesa13• 5 years ago

I apologize for calling your comment out, it was not exactly the kind of comment I wanted to address. I should've provided a better example.

My comment was actually not about your comment specifically, but about making these comparisons without the appropriate cultural context taken into account. I'm not passing a moral judgement or saying it's inappropriate, I'm just expressing a desire to have these comparisons be more meaningful by explicitly acknowledging the context.

I have an issue with making a direct comparison as in "X phenomena is the same as Y phenomena", because it glosses over a LOT when you compare countries like India and America.

moistly• 5 years ago

Then I read the first comment on this HN thread, which is directly comparing this to Toronto.

Canada should provide its youth an opportunity to visit a third-world community. Every G7 nation should be giving their citizens that experience. It would make a big difference to how our future plays out.

erikerikson• 5 years ago

https://www.gapminder.org/dollar-street

chana_masala3• 5 years ago

Dating is so depressing, and it sounds even more soul crushing under these conditions.

Andrew_nenakhov• 5 years ago

I disagree. It is the best thing they have in their lives.

Also, you don't really need money to be happy. I used to have no money at all when I was young and still had great time with girls.

chana_masala3• 5 years ago

I'd rather practice Brahmachariya and be married

webmobdev4• 5 years ago

Something I dislike about the whole "dating" thing (a very US cultural influence due to their media) is that what is supposed to be a normal socialising event between too people, is made into a consumerist ritual. So much that two couples walking in a park or hanging with their friends is not really a "date" or you being cheapskate as, apparently, romance without money is no longer romance.

chrisco255• 5 years ago

I've never made this distinction in my head.

sudosysgen• 5 years ago

Me neither, but I do have friends that did!

Invictus0• 5 years ago

This is not just a "walk in the park" date. I have seen these parks myself, in Delhi and in Mumbai--there are literally dozens of couples kissing and having sex in the dark in these tiny, tiny parks, hardly 30 feet between couples. It is a date of last resort in a gossip-heavy culture--there is no privacy, and young people are shamed for wanting to experience love, especially if it's with the "wrong" person.

bboylen2• 5 years ago

Damn thats crazy. Had no idea this was a thing over there.

So different from my experience in the US

pm908• 5 years ago

The idea of having to spend a lot of money on dates is quite a dated (lol) idea in the US. Perhaps it was true for earlier generations, or maybe it was something that was portrayed a lot in the movies or whatever. My experience has always been of meeting other people for conversation and shared activities.

Expensive dinners for first dates are actually pretty tacky and many women will consider it a red flag/try hard.

jp42• 5 years ago

Whenever there is comparison between something in India and west, almost always its not apples to apples. There are 1.3 billion people, and very wide range of social & economic spectrum, which inherently makes comparison very difficult. for the sake of example - for "X", you will find many many Indians spending vastly more than western people, at the same time you will find millions of Indians who could not even dream about X. replace anything in X. Another I have seen many families who give freedom to girl on whatever they want to do, at the same time there are several conservative and hardliners families. its very hard to generalized due to sheer size and diversity of India.

IMO without meaningful context comparison between west & India is pointless.

prox• 5 years ago

An Indian man once told me religion is the only unifying part of India. That if that didn’t exist, India would fall apart. Can’t tell of course if that is true.

bserge3• 5 years ago

That's more likely the government + military.

rocknor2• 5 years ago

Makes no sense. Religion is rapidly declining yet the citizens are getting more patriotic and developing a stronger common identity. Things like culture/tradition/language/food are much more important than religion for unification. This applies everywhere in the world.

sumedh• 5 years ago

and very wide range of social & economic spectrum,

You are just making it more complicated. When you talk about X, that X applies to majority of the population.

When someone says India is poor country because majority of the people are poor saying India has millions of rich people is not a valid argument.

doit4thebitties• 5 years ago

Dating never requires money. And no guy should be a free dinner dispenser or ATM for commercial activities for someone he doesn't even know.

You can click, talk, walk, dance, and kiss for free... anywhere and everywhere.

Besides, dinner and coffee interview dates are too formal and boring.. zzz.

bboylen2• 5 years ago

If you can't have a fun conversation over coffee or dinner you probably arent compatible

pm908• 5 years ago

If you can't have a fun conversation over coffee or dinner you probably arent compatible

I don't agree with this. Most people aren't comfortable opening up right away on their first interaction with someone they don't know very well. A lot of people also suffer from anxiety issues which can make it difficult for them to open up right away. Coffee/Drinks help to alleviate that somewhat as they're stimulants/social lubricants. Dinner? not so much, it just makes you full and sleepy.

farmerstan• 5 years ago

I thought Indians largely looked down on dating, although maybe the times have changed in the last 10 years? I have many close Indian friends and they are all married via arranged marriage. I’m pretty sure their American-born children will not marry via arranged marriage though and they have all come to grips with that.

I remember talking with one of my friends about arranged marriage and she laughed in my face when I asked her what she thought about marrying for love. She said that marrying for love is a Hollywood myth and if you look around, did it really exist long term? She said compatibility was the most important thing, not love, which I found very interesting.

nodejs_rulez_1• 5 years ago

She said compatibility was the most important thing, not love, which I found very interesting.

Calmly explain to her that the best thing to do is to spend teens and 20s "finding yourself" and "experimenting" and "having fun" as a "free spirit" then to "settle down" in your 30s when you are "ready" and "know what you want".

umangrathi• 5 years ago

Somewhat of a personal understanding, settling down later in life is one of the key problems today. In early 20s you are flexible, by later 20s you gonna earn your own skin and ways of life. It becomes harder to gel up with someone else. In case you are luck, make it work early or as they say keep looking.

watwut• 5 years ago

The compatibility being important is something I was told and I live in Europe. The compatibility is talked about a lot on relationship forums too (for example on reddit) - including by Americans.

Literally only place where the importance of compatibility is considered odd is HN. Here, compatibility and matching is never mentioned in debated about relationships. Everywhere else, it is considered important.

triceratops2• 5 years ago

"Arranged marriage" in an Indian context doesn't necessarily imply "parents tell you who to marry".

In many cases it's essentially parent-involved matchmaking. There may be a professional matchmaker or family astrologer who sources leads. The prospective bride and bridegroom consider multiple or even dozens of options, and discuss their favorites with their parents or other close relatives. The bride/groom visit each other a few times, with families in tow. After they reach an agreement, there's a few months-long engagement. The couple may stay in touch by telephone, social media, video calls, (often chaperoned) in-person visits, and so on. If either person finds a major red-flag during this time, they have the (rarely-used) nuclear option of breaking the engagement.

(Source: I know Indian couples who have "arranged marriages" in the way I described).

She said compatibility was the most important thing, not love, which I found very interesting.

Isn't that considered important in the West too? Advice such as "you have to agree on money, children, and religion; everything else is negotiable" or "you have to be able to make each other laugh" is thrown out pretty frequently. It's generally understood that relationships have a honeymoon phase, after which compatibility is a major factor in staying together. People who get married young sometimes don't understand this fully.

benrapscallion2• 5 years ago

For a (somewhat fake) introduction to this concept, check out Indian Matchmaking on Netflix.

dartharva8• 5 years ago

The prospective bride and bridegroom consider multiple or even dozens of options, and discuss their favorites with their parents or other close relatives.
If either person finds a major red-flag during this time, they have the (rarely-used) nuclear option of breaking the engagement.

In India, this happens very rarely and mostly among the upper-classes. I'm guessing the Indian couples you know fall in that criteria. In many normal middle-income (or lower-income, by US standards) households, young adults don't even perceive the idea of having a freedom to choose their spouses, let alone dating or courting partners.

"Arranged marriage" in an Indian context doesn't necessarily imply "parents tell you who to marry".

You're right about this in some cases, but in almost all other cases it also doesn't imply "you can marry whoever you want".

rocknor2• 5 years ago

I don't think you know what "arranged marriage" really means.

Previously it used to be that your parents would choose your partner for you and you didn't have a choice (well this was true everywhere in the world). This still happens in rural and lesser urbanized areas, but things are changing pretty fast. In urban areas, arranged marriage is basically Tinder with parents - but the goal is to optimize for long-term happiness. Also it's not like the partners never meet each other before marrying - it's usually at least a few meets to decide if they are compatible. If not, you just move on to the next family in the list. The idea is that compatibility is more important. If you're compatible, "love" will happen eventually.

It's true that a few meets are not usually enough to judge compatibility, which is why arranged marriages are on their way out and will eventually die out.

nine_zeros• 5 years ago

I would contend it's easier to date in India. Cheap thrills are everywhere, far too many people around for you to stick out of the crowd (you just need to be a few train/bus stops away from familiar locations).

Strikingly, transportation is cheap. No need to own a car/get expensive Uber rides. And street food is plenty and delicious. Simple dating is much easier for everyone in the spectrum.

Societal issues on the other hand are still not up to the other modern 50% of the country.

pm908• 5 years ago

Its not easier to "date" in India. The society, especially the "traditional" families, are still not accepting of dating. As the article points out, pre-marital sex is still taboo for a large section of society. Alcohol consumption is frowned upon. You really have to be extremely careful when you hang out as a "couple".

far too many people around for you to stick out of the crowd (you just need to be a few train/bus stops away from familiar locations).

Except that everyone seems to be extremely nosy, are part of extended clans, so it feels incredibly suffocating. You feel like you're always being watched, even if that seems silly (it happens often enough to cause concern but not 100% of the time).

In liberal/Western countries, dating is so much easier. You can meet with anyone over coffee/drinks, hang out anywhere, make out in public, whatever.

dartharva8• 5 years ago

Absolutely not. It may be cheap in terms of money, but the implicit costs are horrendous. In areas out of large metro-cities dating (or even courting) is a taboo and seen as a sign of lack of character, especially for women. Young couples very often get thrashed by their family members or self-styled vigilantes for it.

lota-putty2• 5 years ago

India hosts 400% of humans of its healthy capacity; 150 people per sq km.

What the world sees is the tip of the iceberg. Someone alien to India might have to spend decades to get all the idiosyncrasies that run here.

For starters, good portion of sexual harassments/rapes are not reported. Even unnatural deaths go unnoticed or ignored.

winter_blue• 5 years ago

India hosts 400% of humans of its healthy capacity; 150 people per sq km.

Urban areas in almost every part of the world have higher density. For example, New York City has 10,716 people per sq km, and Manhattan (a borough of NYC) has a density of 26,821.6 person per sq km.

So I'm not sure what you're point here is.

NotEvil• 5 years ago

Ever herad of mumbai people to sq.meter or even delhi's. They are much higher than new yorks.

lota-putty2• 5 years ago

Metro cities are not self sufficient, they rely on near/remote regions for resources to sustain.

benrapscallion2• 5 years ago

How is this comment relevant to the article?

neonate• 5 years ago

https://archive.is/fv5U4

alasdair_• 5 years ago

One thing that struck me was the number of parks they went to. I’m sitting here is a fantastically beautiful state (Western Washington) with so much to offer outdoors, yet I realize I’ve barely explored what is there for free, always opting for expensive dinners or events.

This weekend I’m going to change that, for the first time since covid started we’ll go for a hike in a park.

rainhacker• 5 years ago

We never went to malls as everything there was out of my budget. I was also afraid that they would throw us out because we couldn’t speak English

Reading this breaks my heart. In a few weeks India beings an year-long celebration to mark the country’s 75th Independence Day. And yet people feel discriminated because the don’t speak English.

capybara_2020• 5 years ago

It is not just English. Traditional clothes are also frowned upon. A few years there was a case of a man not being let into a mall because he was wearing a Dhoti(A traditional Indian men's wear, prevalent in some parts of the country.) But the irony was he had to argue in English to be let in.

And something I heard years back. Kids were not allowed into another school where a competition was being held. Why...because they were in dhotis and not in uniform. The only problem, that was their school uniform.

fixzVjSi0t2• 5 years ago

Isn't just the language or clothes. People feel inferior/discriminated to eat with their hand (traditional Indian food) as opposed to using forks / knifes, which somehow is supposed to be "civilized". People feel that even when they speak English, their Indian accent is somehow bad / funny. Its not uncommon for people (specially from the western world) to make judgements how Indian/Asian food smells/tastes bad. Wonder how much of these stem from the colonial past of systematically being subjugated and being told you're inferior for 100s of years.

hiyer4• 5 years ago

The 23-year-old earns 8,000 rupees a month ($125) for her work. That’s what her employers can expect to pay for a single “date night” out at one of the city’s finer restaurants.

Even in 2021 (article is from 2017) this is an exaggeration. You can have dinner for 2 at a five-star hotel in Delhi for less than half that amount, unless you're splurging on the drinks.

mattzito2• 5 years ago

I don’t think that’s accurate - I remember being in Delhi circa 2010 and dinners at the nice hotels coming to something close to this amount, albeit with (not outrageous) wine.

I actually went and pulled up the menu for one of the restaurants at the Taj Palace, a place I know well, and an app and entree picked at random came to $73, easily crossing the $125 mark for two without dessert or any beverages.

hiyer4• 5 years ago

You can check the menu for Machan hotel from the Taj Palace here [0]. The most expensive item on the menu (a seafood grill, which is probably not a single-person dish) is around $30, and there are plenty of dishes in the sub-$20 range. I've eaten in several five-star hotels in India from various chains (Taj, ITC, Trident, etc) in various cities (Bangalore, Mumbai, Chennai, Delhi, Kolkata). Excluding drinks, I can't recall paying over Rs. 2500 before tax for 2. It helps that my SO and I are both vegetarian, but even non-vegetarian would only cost around 50% more. Drinks - especially hard liquor - are crazy expensive though, and will easily cost you Rs. 1000+ including tax for even a single large drink or cocktail.

0. https://www.eazydiner.com/delhi-ncr/machan-the-taj-mahal-hot...

jacquesm2• 5 years ago

I pay half that for dining out in Amsterdam.

egghese• 5 years ago

I was surprised by this statement as well. I think the author wanted to paint a picture how miserable things are. Things definitely are difficult for them financially. The prices stated however is bit too over exaggerated. A dinner that starts at $47 in India is something would have made me think 10 times before going for it. You can have a really good dinner for two at 10$ at a nice restaurant in India.

nindalf2• 5 years ago

A dinner at an expensive hotel in Mumbai, an expensive city cost me 5k. I really couldn't imagine paying more than that. The author was exaggerating for effect, claiming 8k was typical. It's much more likely to be 1-1.5k.

seestraw3• 5 years ago

The author is convinced that the couple’s life sucks.

He/she is writing from a point of view of superiority - “look, this is what they’re lacking, they can’t afford a Rs.8000 dinner”. To a billionaire, my software engineer life will look miserable - “They have to go eat at Panera and Olive Garden. For their employer, a nice dineout costs $5000.”

Can we stop looking down on people because they cannot afford what’s normal for us? I agree about the freedom and social parts here, so let’s focus on that. Most of the article seems to be written to evoke shock and awe from a middle-class person - look what they can’t afford! Lets focus on their social struggles instead of what they can or cannot afford.

pm908• 5 years ago

The author is convinced that the couple’s life sucks.

Objectively, their life does kinda suck. The woman is living in a slum and cleaning houses for a living, earning very little for a lot of exhausting labor. The man is doing little better. They have to be creative in finding places to just hang out with each other, which is really the foundation for any relationship.

This isn't a judgement call on their relative economic status; life is just more difficult for them. I didn't feel the author was looking down on them as much as pointing out the obscene difference in ease of living between the upper and lower classes.

EvilEy3• 5 years ago

Not kinda. It sucks.

seestraw3• 5 years ago

I agree with some of your points. And kudos to the journalists for exploring this topic.

However, look at the following:

“She’s the first woman from her family who makes her own money.”

To her, that might be an amazing success. Getting out of your default path and making it on your own is a big thing. Why do we need to emphasize that she can’t afford to eat at a Zomato restaurant? Is that a minimum bar for life being good?

I agree with your point that they do have a lack of freedom and a lot of societal issues. Also basic facilities. Those should obviously be called out and kudos to the journalists for this.

I’m mainly commenting on the author’s choice of contrasting it with luxury brands:

“I don’t really want any expensive gifts, or to go to big restaurants. These things are superficial,” said Anuradha, who said she likes watching romance movies and is a big Shah Rukh Khan fan.

Kudos to her, she doesn’t consider those important, then why does the author keep calling out luxuries she doesn’t have? Malls, expensive restaurants, Zomato, Tinder.

Sadly in Indian soceity, these luxury items are given too much importance in determining your “class”. In the US (and many less rich countries), take a look at articles on poverty. They focus on problems and solutions, not on brands they can’t afford.

fixzVjSi0t2• 5 years ago

Does their life really suck though? It's probably harder with fewer luxuries but happiness is not proportional how much money you have/make. You could be a rich and miserable but you could also could be poor and happy/content.

cee_el123• 5 years ago

if the masses realized/felt that their life sucks - they would revolt already against the status quo

or maybe not, since upper classes will swiftly deal with it and go back to being miserable about their first world problems

nindalf2• 5 years ago

It's a matter of perspective though. Would you rather be with the love of your life and not have much disposable income or vice versa? I've actually experienced the opposite - living in Delhi with plenty of disposable income but no way to meet people, let alone women. I just hung out at home playing video games.

Would I trade places with them? No, I was content with my life. But would these folks swap with me? Based on how happy they are with each other, I'd guess not.

kome• 5 years ago

He/she is writing from a point of view of superiority - “look, this is what they’re lacking, they can’t afford a Rs.8000 dinner”. To a billionaire, my software engineer life will look miserable - “They have to go eat at Panera and Olive Garden. For their employer, a nice dineout costs $5000.”

yeah, but so what? the comparison is not holding.

poverty is not a lifestyle.

sneak• 5 years ago

These women get beaten by their families for having a mobile phone, or outright killed for choosing the wrong partner.

I think perhaps you got the wrong thing from this article.

seestraw3• 5 years ago

Actually, I’m saying we should focus on such issues instead of devoting just one line to them.

stevenjgarner• 5 years ago

Relative to a billionaire all our lives suck economically - "those poor wretches without even the resources to individually colonize space". (Pardon me for any billionaires reading). But there are a lot of ways to measure "suck" - independence, resourcefulness and self determination; Gross National Happiness Index; health/longevity; education; etc..

fakedang3• 5 years ago

I got a different message from the article: the article brings a very different perspective to what the upper classes know of. These wage earners work the same wage for many of my friends in Delhi, irrespective of whether my friends earn $50k or $500k. Most of the upper classes literally look down on these folks, thinking perhaps that they are unable to date or go out and have fun, etc. The article shows that barring the price point, they engage in many of the same activities.

Some anecdotal evidence I've observed when visiting the homes of the lower wage workers in Delhi:-

1.) If they have a proper brick and mortar house, even on rent, they consider themselves successful. They do a very good job of maintaining their local colonies, even better than some of the upper class areas.

2.) The people in the above situation were often adamant about sending their kids to school, and in some cases, even private schools.

3.) They use most of the electronics we use, just cheaper versions. TVs, fridges, even a laptop in one household.

4.) The biggest differentiator between a happy lower income household and a dysfunctional one was alcohol and drug abuse.

5.) The "bad" ones are usually counseled by neighbors and members of the community, and if that was to no avail, later ostracized. There was always a support mechanism in place for the (nearly always female) victim so that she could continue living in the community.

In all of the above cases, we see that their lives mirror ours, or in some cases, they've had to adapt unique social systems despite the challenges, which ultimately seem to be better than the ones we upper class folks seem to have.

anovikov3• 5 years ago

Seriously, a dinner for two costs $125 in India in a place with $400 average monthly income? This is what it would cost here in Cyprus, short of really nice places in Nicosia or Limassol, and the monthly income is 5x as much. Maybe $200 in the very nicest of places.

I'm a developer and make in mid-six figures, and whenever i see a $125 bill including tips, i start to feel like "oh, this is pricey".

programmer_dude• 5 years ago

Dinner at an average restaurant doesnt cost that much. You can have a nice meal (for two) in a place with good ambience for 20 USD.

dartharva8• 5 years ago

It doesn't, author is making a gross exaggeration.

mohanmcgeek• 5 years ago

Exaggeration is an understatement. The author is either ignorant or has an agenda.

Rich people buffets in the city cost $20 for 2. The most expensive buffets on New years Ev, in the city cost like 80$ for 2.

kakkan• 5 years ago

Even though the article captures a good amount of truth about the lifestyle, the dinner pricing might need a bit of context. The top 5% of the restaurants might cost more than a hundred bucks for two people but that should be expected from the high-end four star and five star restaurants. I'm an Indian engineer who earns in USD, and even if I'm picky, my per meal is always between $3 - $5. Even if I'm going for keto or specialised meals, it never goes beyond $10.

ascar2• 5 years ago

You surely meant five figures and not ~500,000?

anovikov3• 5 years ago

I meant annual income in my context ofc.

superfreek• 5 years ago

Delhi has a per capita annual income of 300,000 rupees ($4,615) - the highest in the country and three times the national average. But nearly half of the city’s population lives in slums without basic services and facilities like drinking water, garbage disposal or a proper drainage system.

And life goes on, and little change is made. Many nations are so unfortunate to live in a poor society, with not so many chances of getting better.

cosmodisk• 5 years ago

I used to go on dates when I could barely afford to sit in a cafe. It was glorious. I've met women, had great time,etc. Never did any fine dining on any of my dates and it was fine.

I'm sure many indians do the same and instead of going to super duper restaurant, they adjust based on their income level and do something else instead.

dartharva8• 5 years ago

What the author tried to implicitly say, and what many readers seemed to miss, is the fact that how the concepts of "dating" are uncharted and carry so many risks for people in the lower classes even after you take away the money factor. Their families and societies are tied up in such a way that makes indulging into such "modern" or "western" acts a huge taboo, with the youngsters facing severe punishments if caught. For many parents with such mindsets, their children "dating" someone is seen as an act of dishonor.

naruvimama3• 5 years ago

Wealthy countries are struggling with the impact of teen moms, single mothers & alcoholic/druggie parents.

In countries like India with 1/10th to 1/25th the percapita income such social restrictions are a necessity.

dartharva8• 5 years ago

Wealthy countries are struggling with the impact of teen moms, single mothers & alcoholic/druggie parents.

Are they, really? Do you have a source? I'm willing to bet the suffering these social restrictions put on young women and men in general is several times that faced by the outliers you're conveniently pointing to. Also willing to bet these cases of teen moms and alcoholic parents will be much more prevalent among the poorer classes in India than in the west in general.

jwMnWbdt• 5 years ago

Marrying in same gotra is not one of the reason for honour killing. There are no evidences for it. There are reports for such incidents for marriage between two castes and religions. It appears the author has preconceived notions against certain aspect of indian society. A little factual evidence being provided,or diligent research before putting personal perspectives would have been better.

jacobwilliamroy• 5 years ago

As a man who lives below the poverty line I am extremely insecure about dating just because I worry about my partner trading up for someone with more money than me.

The consumerist culture doesn't help my confidence with women either. That Bruno Mars song "That's What I like" is literally just 3.5 minutes of him explaining how he seduces women by buying them lots of very expensive things. I couldn't even compete with a walmart middle manager at that game.

taauji• 5 years ago

That is a misleading article. Nobody spends that much amount of money on a single "date night" or "movie night" unless you are an elite. This article is again a low effort attempt to sell western people news that fits their narrow knowledge base.

fakedang3• 5 years ago

Or you know, she could have been a wage worker for an elite. There is literally no price variation in India for someone who earns $50k or $20k or $500k - the maids ultimately earn the same regardless of the net worth of their employer. The only differentiators are the perks (staying within the apartment/building, free food, etc).

To give an anecdote, a friend's cousin is a partner at a consulting firm in Delhi, yet I was surprised to find out that their live-in help was paid 12k INR a month. It's not about them being stingy, it's just the market rate (or in this case, above market).

GaryTang• 5 years ago

Much easier than dating in Antarctica when you’re rich

m4rc0• 5 years ago

wow this was such a nice reflexion on values, about romantic stuff, really it was a great reading, thanks a lot

Dating in Delhi when you're poor

Related Stories