A walk in nature is better than microdosing

https://victorrotariu.com/2021/06/better-than-microdosing-walks-in-nature/

by unifiedtheory • 5 years ago

248 209 5 years ago

victorrotariu.com

chadlavi• 5 years ago

I'd be willing to test out both to compare

NikolaeVarius2• 5 years ago

Or just take a full dose and take a walk in nature. Much better.

rob74• 5 years ago

Take a full dose. Go outside to take a walk. Get arrested. Now you have bigger problems to think about than improving your mood and focus.

speapr4• 5 years ago

Take a full dose. Go outside to take a walk. Get arrested. Realize in lockdown that all societal control is just an illusion and an ego trip by those who think they need to pretend to exert power, and that nothing can hold down your divine, free essence as a living god.

71a54xd2• 5 years ago

As long as you consumed all the psychs what would they arrest you for? Being too enthralled with the beauty of nature?

That said, getting arrested will be the least of your problems if you take a "full" dose and haven't had enough prior experience with psychs.

tuxxy• 5 years ago

This is an absurd fantasy.

If you take psychedelics and go outside, no one is going to arrest you. Consumption of drugs, in most western nations, isn't a crime. Stop spreading this sort of asinine fear.

Broken_Hippo• 5 years ago

Only, that's not the case. Granted, I tend to stay at home when taking hallucinogens, but not always - and have been both in cities and closer to nature.

The thing you have to remember is: No one pays attention to you. If you have a beer in your hand - or smell like you've been drinking - people do assume that is the case. It isn't like can't act normal, especially if you make sure to walk around after you peak.

It isn't like hallucinogens necessarily make you act weird - especially since people will just assume you are weird. Again, people don't really pay attention to you. Just don't do this if it is your first time.

mc32• 5 years ago

But that means actually “doing” something.

Blahah• 5 years ago

Clearly both have benefits. If you have access to nature (many people don't) then walking in it is beneficial. Whether or not you have access to nature, microdosing might help.

omginternets• 5 years ago

Walking in a city is also beneficial.

nicoburns2• 5 years ago

Why is microdosing popular and walks in the park are not?

Is there anywhere where this is true? Where I live (London), probably 80% of people go for walks in the park. And I don't think I know anyone who microdoses.

hanniabu• 5 years ago

I'd say because parks/nature is scarce in concrete cities

ubercow13• 5 years ago

London has lots of nice parks. There was much more greenery around me in London than there is in the ‘leafy’ suburb, elsewhere in the country, that I currently live in.

standardUser2• 5 years ago

Agreed. The closest parks to me do not offer serene nature. They offer a diverse mix of people (and dogs) engaged in all kinds of different activities. It's entertaining and stimulating but I doubt it provides the benefits the author is talking about.

Especially since they keep mentioning forests and there is nothing remotely like a "forest" in walking distance from my home in NY. Nor was there was I lived in SF, and not even in the suburbs where I grew up.

coding123• 5 years ago

I didn't even know what microdosing was until I clicked. Do THAT many people know what Microdosing is that they can just omit LSD from the title?

jborden13• 5 years ago

You can microdose with mushrooms, or anything really. Microdosing has become increasingly popular over the last few years, but I doubt it's ubiquitous where everyone is knowledgeable on the subject.

colinspear2• 5 years ago

I don't think it's a matter of popularity - clearly more people are going on walks than regularly talking small amounts of LSD. It's a matter of visibility and novelty. Microdosing is new and buzzworthy, it's been hyped low and high and a walk in the woods is as old (read boring) as time.

unifiedtheory8• 5 years ago

exactly

LudwigNagasena• 5 years ago

What kind of bubble do you have to live in where microdosing is more popular than parks lol?

felipellrocha• 5 years ago

San francisco

notahacker• 5 years ago

People walking in parks are too busy walking in parks to blog about the therapeutic benefit they're experiencing from being in a park though :)

paganel• 5 years ago

I didn’t even know what “microdosing” before stumbling on this post, still am not 100% sure what it is, I guess it’s something related to taking psychedelics in small doses?

ArtWomb• 5 years ago

I think to be be a true and sublime "forest bath", you need to be some ways from the din of human civ. Closest to Central London might be Richmond Park? But even then there are plenty of day drinkers idling about ;)

EveYoung• 5 years ago

Hampstead Heath is quite central as well.

reality_inspctr• 5 years ago

So many people use parks even without paths that a common technique for park designers is to simply build parks with no pathways then go pave where people go over time -- so called "Desire Paths." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desire_path

People have been walking through things like Temple Gardens for most if not all of recorded history. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_gardening

While psychedelics have a long history - and surely some wild animals unintentionally microdose including homo sapiens in the early days just by trying a mushroom they see - it seems certain that it's many orders of magnitude more hours of the human experience spent on walks in nature than on psychedelics.

trynumber9• 5 years ago

It's popular to extol the virtues of on the web, anyway.

The author explains their reasoning in the article:

On the other hand microdosing is not common. However it has several characteristics that make it appear more valuable. Namely its difficulty, exclusivity and risk. It activates our bias of thinking that scarcity indicates value.

hmmokidk• 5 years ago

I've lived in the US and Canada. Nobody goes on walks in California. In fact where I live under 1% of the city is green space. I hate walking in this city. My dog hates it as well. Can you believe that?

When we lived in a major city in Canada there was so much green space.

rrose2• 5 years ago

nobody goes on walks in california? i live in SF and going on walks, or hikes just outside of the city, is easily one of the most common activities people I know participate in. There is no chance going on walks is less popular than microdosing here.

clpm4j• 5 years ago

Are you talking about LA? SF is the only city in the US where every resident is technically within a ~10min walk to a public park. And among my group of friends here I can definitely say that hiking and getting into nature is the most common hobby outside of work. And just in reference to this article, I know zero people here in SF who microdose (unless they just never talk about it).

acchow2• 5 years ago

I experienced the opposite moving from Toronto to SF. In Toronto, indoor life was the norm (due to cold winters, plenty of rain, and much nicer indoor spaces). In SF, we seem to do everything in parks. And hiking seems more popular than bars. Hiking seems to be the presumed common activity across all people (especially as it requires almost no money at all, which is a concern for many given how high rent is).

midnightclubbed• 5 years ago

Curious which city you live in? Plenty of walking down here in Oceanside (north San Diego county). 2 large parks within a 5 min walk from my house, walking trails across the street from my office in SD.

ihumanable• 5 years ago

I guess I don't actually live in California, weird that I pay state taxes here.

Between Muni and BART there are a lot of people walking around SF and the Bay Area to get to public transit. In the city with friends we would often walk because the city is walkable and there's stuff to do. Even out in the exurbs I enjoy frequent walks with my dogs on nature trails and enjoy the occasional hike on Mt. Diablo.

When family visits we go to Muir Woods and walk amongst the trees.

So everyday whether for work, exercise, or relaxation, I walk around the Bay Area and enjoy it a heck of a lot more than the car-centric midwest I grew up in.

samatman7• 5 years ago

Nobody goes on walks in [the very specific part of California I happen to live in]

There, that reads better.

California is the home of backpacking (US meaning) in a very real sense.

(To whom it may concern: please don't respond to this saying that wearing a backpack in the wilderness is older than John Muir. I know about Otzi as well.)

hughrr• 5 years ago

This is one of those little echo chambers. If you go looking for people who microdose then you’re going to find people who microdose and extol the virtues of it. When everyone around you is doing it because you went looking then you think it’s the norm.

Having attended a bazillion completely random things on Meetup in the last few years in London of all kinds, which is a hobby of mine, yep walks in park it is. And not one microdoser.

On the original topic, walking anywhere is the best therapy for me as well. Especially when it ends in a pub with good company.

x1798DE• 5 years ago

It's unclear from the article, but the author may mean "Why do people talk about microdosing for these benefits and not about walking in the park?" The author even mentions that microdosing is not common.

Alternatively they may mean, "Why is microdosing so trendy but walking in the park is not?"

JohnBooty• 5 years ago

Yes, I believe you are completely correct.

The author flatly states, a few sentences later, "On the other hand microdosing is not common."

While the author's wording misses the mark, from context there's absolutely doubt he's referring to microdosing being a more popular discussion topic in some circles, not more popular in terms of the absolute number of people actually doing it.

unifiedtheory8• 5 years ago

exactly, thank you

fnord77• 5 years ago

I did when shrooms (fresh) were legal in the 2000s. Used to buy them in Mayfair.

Shrooms on a bendy bus... wow

vinni2• 5 years ago

I don’t think a park in London counts as nature. It’s so artificially created with so much traffic around.

unifiedtheory8• 5 years ago

it's about using it for improved focus and creativity, rather than the prevalence of the behaviour. people go for walks in parks for many reasons, without acknowledging the beneficial effects

Jakobeha• 5 years ago

I've gone on super long runs (10+ miles) through cities, parks, and other beautiful environments.

These runs can be transcendental. During them, I felt like I was at peace and all my problems almost went away. Now I think back on them and feel nostalgia, also I appreciate nature and architecture a lot more. For me, runners high is very real.

I've never taken drugs or psychedelics, but I would be interested in hearing people who've done both compare the two. I really think it's a similar experience.

frereubu3• 5 years ago

They're pretty different in my experience (used to take LSD, run instead these days). LSD can be different things to different people, but for me it was a really intense experience, where everything was really vivid and alive. I think I get the runner's high you talk about, but it's much more meditative and (for lack of a less loaded term) wholesome. The comedown from LSD can be pretty grim, but running first thing in the morning improves my entire day.

Edit: Actually, if the comparison is microdosing I've never done that. But I'd take a run over microdosing any day, even if I could get guaranteed pharmeceutical-grade LSD on tap.

jk7tarYZAQNpTQa• 5 years ago

These runs can be transcendental.

I truly believe it. The happiness you feel after a race, or a good workout, is indescribable. I've never been happier than when I routinely worked out for 90 minutes a day, 6 days a week. I was floating, and had random endorphins highs during the day.

I've never microdosed, but from what I've read I think running (and more generally sport) can be similar to it. Maybe similar to meditating, too.

softwaredoug• 5 years ago

Before a family vacation recently, I went on a long 11 mile hike by myself. It helped just completely empty my mind, especially the transition from work mind -> family mind. Planning to do it more often...

vmception2• 5 years ago

When I do “tranquil” things like being on a trail I mostly wind up thinking about others things I can be doing

Like I get motivated to do things I’m procrastinating on, except now I’m in the middle of a trail and cant

This can have redeeming benefits like sorting out thoughts for things I hadnt considered and I can enjoy it when I get into it, but this is a different experience than psychadelics

Also not all trails I can get into. Some start boring and stay boring.

An exercise high where you zone off into your thoughts and get a (theorized) release of dopamine and serotonin from your muscles aching is very different than psychedelics

Some/Many people on the trails around you are also on psychadelics. You shouldnt be able to tell, but especially if they are microdosing.

I would say while using psychadelics that stimuli guides your thoughts differently. Your mind is sorting different things. And primarily different neuron groups are communicating that typically aren’t, or are now communicating at higher bandwidth. This is all theorized based on shared experiences and some MRIs that show enhanced activity but arent capable of corroborating how neurons are connected. The serotonin released is also considered to be amplified. For many, this has redeeming benefits. More study is needed so at least less redeeming side effects can be listed on the bottle like every fda evaluated drug.

Being in the woods and being on psychadelics isnt mutually exclusive

munificent2• 5 years ago

Like I get motivated to do things I’m procrastinating on, except now I’m in the middle of a trail and cant

This is a really common phenomenon. We also experience it in the shower or laying in bed at night.

I think the common understanding is that it's a dumb little trick our anxiety is playing on us. One of the main reasons we procrastinate is fear: that we will fail at the task, that it will be too hard, that it will impinge on our picture of ourselves in some way. So we know we're supposed to do it, but we also don't want to.

When we're in a situation where we could work on it, those procrastinating rationalizations rise up to let us escape the risk of those negative experiences. But if we're in a situation where we can't do the task we're afraid of, there's no reason to put the unconscious mental effort into summoning those mental blocks. So we experience that as "I feel really motivated right now but I can't."

What's really going on is that you're equally motivated all the time, you just have other negative stuff layered on top at points when you could be doing the thing. Work through that negative stuff, and you'll feel just as motivated even when you are able to do the task.

NikolaeVarius2• 5 years ago

They are nowhere near the local galactic cluster of similar experiences.

humanlion87• 5 years ago

I have gone on long runs but have never been able to hit the runner's high (that I have read about). I used to have some music on during runs (wasn't really listening to the songs actually) but I have stopped that as well recently. Maybe expecting the "high" is the wrong thing to do and that's preventing me from achieving it :). Hopefully I will achieve it one of these days...

ranprieur• 5 years ago

I've been running for years, without expecting runner's high, and also without ever getting it. I assume runners who get it just have a different kind of brain-body.

Jagerbizzle• 5 years ago

I've done plenty of drugs and also have hobbies like backcountry skiing and mountaineering, having climbed some of the highest peaks in North America. They really aren't the same thing, but what I can say is that the high I had after a 3 week Alaskan expedition has never been matched by substances or anything else.

Unfortunately I can't go on a 3 week expedition every weekend.

jpm_sd• 5 years ago

I'm also lacking psychedelic experience, but one of the ways I made it through the pandemic was going for 4+ hour bike rides on Sundays. Total reset for my brain.

not_jd_salinger2• 5 years ago

I've done a reasonable amount of both psychedelics and long distance running (finished full and half marathons + the training required to do that) and they're completely different things.

Both are great, both can be great tools for self discovery, and both can yield annoyingly ardent fans. I personally think everyone who is interested in experiencing life should aim to do a 10+ mile run and take a reasonably strong dose of a psychedelic. But by no means is your life impoverished by having neither experience.

I felt like I was at peace and all my problems almost went away.

Right away this is a key difference, the peace you feel running is closer to a mild opioid than any psychedelic. Long distance running is fantastic for this sort of deep meditation, and for many people will be much easier than performing long sitting mediation. However I would say the end result of this running is that you travel deep within yourself.

Psychedelics on the other hands will temporarily take your mind apart. It is very common to experience looking in the mirror and seeing 'you' as just another body that is no different than the other bodies on the street. Psychedelics are both more exhilarating and more terrifying. Baggage you are carrying around can easily spiral in to a "bad" trip (which may be terrifying, but many would agree is not really a "bad" thing). At the same time and during the same experience you can see and feel the details in a blade of grass that let you feel a sense of beauty in the mundane that is a very different intensity than the peaceful bliss that can come from running.

I highly recommend you try something like shrooms in the safe environment. Not dissimilar to running a marathon, once can be enough of an experience for a lifetime (where for some people they want it to be a major part of their life, which is fine too in both cases).

pulkitsh1234• 5 years ago

well said !

emc32• 5 years ago

highly recommend you try something like shrooms in the safe environment

Just listened to Seth Rogen's audible book (hilarious, and decent anecdata on shrooms particularly) and he would say shrooms are a lot more intense than LSD. Shrooms take control while on LSD you're "the pilot."

cyberpunk• 5 years ago

You meditated you just didn’t know it. Try sitting zazen now and again, a quick search can help you out with it :)

rrrrrrrrrrrryan• 5 years ago

While it's possible to enter altered states of consciousness via endurance sport, (or meditation, yoga, breathing exercises, etc). the experience is fundamentally different than ingesting psychoactive substances.

With one, you have to actively work to achieve an altered state. With the other, once you ingest the thing, it's happening whether you want it to or not.

One is an act of willful exertion, the other is an act of surrender.

sharadov• 5 years ago

How is this different from an intense gym workout or playing racquetball or yoga? Comparing these to running and not psychedelics. I don't want to be doing any strenuous physical activity on psychedelics, a hike through nature would be nice. Each of those activities gives me a high, but different ones at that. But nevertheless I feel ebullient and in a state of flow.

notdang2• 5 years ago

I also do long run (80k, 100k distances so far) and maybe the first 30k-40k can be pleasant and feel transcendental, but after that everything is pain. Also at some point the pain disappears and then there is nothing.

garrickvanburen• 5 years ago

Yes, I’ve experienced the same. Always between 10-18miles and through nature in a part of town different from my day-to-day.

LargoLasskhyfv4• 5 years ago

I know runners high. But running isn't(wasn't) my main thing, that would be bicycling. Anyway, long ago I had a very broken upper arm which made running unenjoyable. At the time I had a prescription for time released/retarded Tramadolhydrochloride which is a mild Opioid, not something like Fentanyl, or such.

One day I felt the urge to run and popped a pill in preparation, which kicks in after about half an hour. Where kicks in means pain is gone like a switch is thrown, and not much else, maybe a feeling of relaxation, but that may have been just because the pain was gone?

So I've been ready, and then a thunderstorm started. That was unexpected, because the weather was fine, and then suddenly it wasn't anymore. Whatever, didn't want to have taken the pill for nothing, and went out to run in spite of the rain.

Along one side of the mountains forming a valley, on a path through a pine forest above the train tracks curving along the mountain above the little valley.

Soaked, but so what? It was warm summer rain. I could see down to the train tracks, between 50 to 150meters away(that varied)

And then the lightnings really started. It came to mind that it wouldn't be a good idea to be out there, so exposed, during that much lightning, maybe even suicidal. I coldly calculated that all the trees there made much better lightning rods than me, and ran on.

While doing that I saw dozens of lightnings hitting the tracks and their electrification/overhead wire and masts, again and again.

Like in some crazy movie-fx/CGI. Because I perceived it in slow motion, white-blue-violet-purple colored, branching apart, similar to the roots of a tree, but not. And the thundering, even the echoes giving you light full body slaps.

While on the usual runners high, feeling light, flying.

This went on for maybe 10km over half an hour, then I had to turn back because end of way. Well, not exactly, but no more forest, and I don't like to run in urban areas between housing and traffic.

So, for me the kind of drugs I took just intensified that and I'd agree with you regarding the similarity of experience.

But there are other drugs working differently, there are other people reacting different to some(or all?) drugs than others, and there are (supposedly?) different 'neuro-architectures' ('wiring of the brain') resulting in different sensibilities on a spectrum/scale from something vague to something vague :-)

unifiedtheory8• 5 years ago

fascinating experience and insight

ChrisMarshallNY• 5 years ago

I used up my quota before I was 18.

I start each day with a 2-mile walk. Seems to work for me.

Jtsummers2• 5 years ago

Or after work, I'm currently doing 2-mile daily runs (trying to get into my old 5km running habit) and it's incredibly restorative after a day of thinking about other people's problems.

0-_-0• 5 years ago

Microdosing in nature is better than a walk in nature

colinspear2• 5 years ago

Sometimes someone's gotta say the obvious thing so we can remember.

mxcrossr• 5 years ago

I wonder if this is more a subtle criticism of psychology research. Perhaps a walk in the park should be more of a baseline

aphextron2• 5 years ago

So much of "mental" health is really just physical health. As a young person with mood issues I could never really understand why I felt the way I felt at times, and would always just chalk it up to some vague self diagnosed mental disorder. But the older I get I realize it all comes down to my physical state. Am I tired? Have I slept right? Have I eaten? Too much caffeine? Too much alcohol? Have I exercised? Practically every bad mood can be traced back to these. Yet people will ignore all that and convince themselves they need to take a pill to make themselves feel better.

frereubu3• 5 years ago

Exactly. The overcomplicated way people think about things like this reminds me of the counterpoint Michael Pollan quote about what you should eat: "Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants." If people made sure they slept properly, didn't drink too much (caffeine or alcohol) and got regular exercise, they'd feel transformed. It took me until my 40s to realise that!

chrischattin• 5 years ago

Agreed. This has been my experience as well. Whenever I get to a dark place, I eventually pick up the weights again and w/in a few weeks I'm feeling much better. Fixing mental health issues with working out is a meme in the fitness world too.

Probably not a popular opinion among the HN crowd, but I think there are way too many anxiety/depression cases caused by lifestyle. It's like, you sit in front of a computer screen for 12 hours a day chugging sugary lattes, no shit you have anxiety. Go do some hill sprints until you're exhausted.

TeMPOraL2• 5 years ago

On the other hand, you may get all of these things right, and still experience no improvement.

Personally, I'm starting to feel that most "diet and exercise" advice is just a subtle way of showing a middle finger. Sending someone on a wild goose chase, thus making them go away. In my circles, I've never heard of a single case where a medical problem - whether physical or mental - was solved by changing diet or a more active lifestyle. The closest I've seen was shuffling meals around because of a bad interaction with a drug.

Keeping sleep, diet and exercise truly optimal, against challenges of the modern world and already compromised physical or mental state is a full-time job on its own. Even if it could help - which I doubt - few people have enough time and energy to go this route. Hell, finding the optimal balance in the first place is essentially a full-time N=1 research work.

Pills are good thing. The right ones, administered in correct doses, under supervision of medical professionals - they work wonders. Modern medicine in many ways a miracle. Being able to function again, to feel good, to spend quality time with people you love, can be as simple as popping a lozenge at appropriate time. It's infinitely better than structuring your entire life around managing your condition with "natural" remedies.

To be clear: I'm not saying we should be medicating ourselves for everything. Not all drugs are good, and all drugs have side effects. They're still very crude tools. I'm trying to offer a counterpoint to the (what I feel is) growing trend of rejecting modern medicine just because it smells too much of industry (as if that was a bad thing). In my view, the problem with medication is just that it's not good enough. But it's getting better, year after year.

Clubber2• 5 years ago

Many years ago, when I was much younger, I had anger issues. I started to play sports (football, wrestling, track) and they vanished. I told myself I was always too worn out to be angry. Now, whenever I don't feel right, I can just go for a walk. I'm so out of shape today, a 30 minute walk can wear me out enough to get my head right.

PaulKeeble• 5 years ago

We don't know if this is the case yet but I suspect that the grand majority of ailments currently treated with Psychologists and Psychiatrists will turn out to be things in the future that we know the cause of and can treat properly at a biological level.

There was a paper maybe a month ago about Penile dysfunction in a Covid long hauler who died. Post Mortem DNA analysis of the dysfunctional area showed Covid19 was causing the dysfunction, it was persisting in those cells nearly a year after the initial infection. This person did not show positive on covid19 tests and none of the long haulers do, this person did not shed viral load and infect others, but clearly that virus was still present causing a raft of problems in their body.

I would bet big on other viruses doing this in our body and causing all sorts of local problems and if we knew what we were looking for and had ways to kill the infected cells we would cure a whole raft of chronic conditions. What you suffer from is likely a combination of the virus that is doing it and where it is persisting. It is becoming an increasingly accepted position with a variety of papers showing viruses stick around, control cells and maintain presence and cause all sorts of weird effects in the body and I suspect we are going to find them the cause of a lot of problems we call mental currently.

I am all but certain that right now what we call mental health is really just physical that we just don't recognise properly because we haven't done the DNA analysis of sufferers post mortem to understand the real root cause. I also think the current practice of Psychology is hurting the chance of the biological research from occurring at the sort of pace and funding it should while it does research that doesn't look deeply into the biology of common conditions.

tootie• 5 years ago

I don't think any rational therapist wouldn't at least try to get you to self-treat your neurosis with some simple exercises, fresh air, and socializing before they prescribe something. Things like chronic depression are absolutely going to require something more aggressive than a walk in the park though. And I don't think anyone prescribes microdosing.

munificent2• 5 years ago

My second-hand experience is that many psychiatrists will indeed reach straight for meds when they are looking for a solution.

People are naturally incentivized to use the tools they've spent decades acquiring. Just like every programmer when presented with a problem tends to solve it with code. A psychiatrist's career is based on prescribing medicine, so that's what they're gonna do.

(Psychologists and therapists, however, will likely tell you to take a walk in nature and think about your mother.)

aphextron2• 5 years ago

Por que no los dos?

srinivgp• 5 years ago

A good night's sleep is better than antibiotics.

TeMPOraL2• 5 years ago

But is it faster? That is the important question.

If all you are after are the ends, the best means are ones that require the least effort.

justinator• 5 years ago

I found my favorite walks in nature have also been the most inconvenient ones.

indiantinker• 5 years ago

Can vouch for this, cheaper as well.

furgooswft13• 5 years ago

what's even better is to take DMT then run into the forest to talk to dead people then post your story on erowid.org in the year 2000.

varelse7• 5 years ago

Doubly so if you took the DMT in 2021.

hristov2• 5 years ago

Anything is better than microdosing. In general not microdosing or taking any drugs at all is better than microdosing.

Microdosing is a lie perpetrated by drug dealers to sell drugs to sectors of the population that would be otherwise too cautious to take them. The entire concept is based on a logical fallacy. The fallacy is that if you do not get the positive effect (i.e., getting high), you won't get the negative effect (i.e., addiction, tolerance, and the slew of other health damaging effects for each particular drug).

But there is no data to support this and it is unlikely to be true. In fact from what is known about the nervous system, taking small dozes of an addictive drug often and at regular intervals is a great way to increase tolerance. This will cause any positive effects of the drug to quickly diminish, which will cause the user to take larger doses, which will cause more tolerance and larger doses until the health effects associated with the drug start showing up.

So yes do take those walks in the park. One can actually be addicted to exercise too, but that is an addiction that almost always has nothing but positive side effects. It is in very rare cases that people exercise so much that it causes negative effects.

Falling3• 5 years ago

The drugs used for microdosing are not considered to form physical dependence. Nor have I ever heard of anyone become addicted to psychedelics. Is there a reason your response hinges on addiction?

snypher• 5 years ago

I'm not sure how you can believe what is written here. Do you honestly think people adverse to taking LSD are being convinced because 'its just a little bit'? LSD isn't known to be addictive at all, are there any LSD addicts who started out small but are now taking whole sheets a day?

This post seems like the example of inventing something to get angry at?

thecrash• 5 years ago

LSD doesn't work the way you're describing, at all. I can think of other substances that do, but your treatment of "drugs" as a monolith suggests you don't really understand the particular topic at hand.

Clubber2• 5 years ago

In general not microdosing or taking any drugs at all is better than microdosing.

I would agree with this part of your post, but the rest is just stuff you seem to have made up or read from someone who made it up, at least in regards to psychedelics. Sounds like you are describing an opioid or nicotine or something. Not all illegal drugs have the same properties. This reads like old reefer madness propaganda.

imiric3• 5 years ago

The fallacy is that if you do not get the positive effect (i.e., getting high), you won't get the negative effect (i.e., addiction, tolerance, and the slew of other health damaging effects for each particular drug).

Addiction is hardly a problem for psychedelics, as most users don't use them regularly. In fact, they can be used as treatment for other addictive substances[1].

High doses and long term usage does carry some risk of health issues, mostly psychological, but these are much less severe than effects from similar uses of alcohol or tobacco. Besides, this risk is pretty much nonexistent in the context of microdosing.

Psychedelics have been used in cultures around the world for millennia, yet have been severely understudied in modern medicine. The least we can do is to stop categorizing them alongside much more harmful drugs like heroin and meth, and to fund further research that can determine and mitigate any harmful effects, so that we can establish a legal framework for people to consume them safely.

[1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25563446/

hristov2• 5 years ago

"Addiction is hardly a problem for psychedelics, as most users don't use them regularly."

Yeah, but if you agree with the concept of microdosing you will be using them regularly. That is exactly what microdosing is about.

93po2• 5 years ago

This is misinformed about the reality of what people typically do when microdosing. Virtually every resource I've ever read on the topic specifically suggests taking off days to ensure you do not build a tolerance. Often regimes recommend only microdosing 2 or 3 times a week. At such low doses and with so many off days, tolerance really does not increase much or any.

Most people I know who microdose grow their own. Blaming drug dealers is ridiculous.

Go ask about taking bigger doses due to tolerance on any discussion board about microdosing. 99% of the time they will tell you to take time off to reduce tolerance.

Psilocybin is not addictive in any physical way.

simonsaidit• 5 years ago

I found a walk in Nature on the day after a changa(DMT+Harmala) was greatly enhanced. Somehow i would notise the leaves more like having better vision. Perhaps being more in the moment have to do with it.

Vaslo• 5 years ago

Psychedelics are the new AI and willl probably end up just as disappointing.

beaconstudios• 5 years ago

and the award for the most California post ever goes to...

weregiraffe• 5 years ago

But worse than macrodosing.

yoloswagins• 5 years ago

The issue with microdosing is the lack of ritual. Taking a precut strip before getting started on a task. Compare this to the ritual of going to nature, it's an aberration from your usual ways. You get more benefit, or maybe just meaning from psychedelics by creating ritual. Compare taking an MAOI consuming DMT, vs traveling to a new place and consuming ayahuasca.

gcheong• 5 years ago

They seem to be rather orthogonal. Microdosing is certainly more controllable in terms of how much and what dose so you can optimize the level whereas walks in nature is more akin to drinking herbal tea for an upset stomach. You hope it helps but you don’t know how much of the active ingredient you’re getting for the effects you want and in that sense it’s more of a crapshoot in terms of repeatability but they’re also just enjoyable in their own right regardless of follow on benefits.

simonswords82• 5 years ago

Why not both?

balls187• 5 years ago

Never microdosed (or macro for that matter), but nothing comes close to the elation I feel when I play with my kids at the park.

_ph_2• 5 years ago

I have never tried microdosing, but how would I manage to get a walk in nature? :p

Alas, when I was a child we used to live at an edge of a forest, so getting a walk in nature was easy to do. But where I am living now, there is some residential housing and some fields. Not sure how far I would have to drive until I get to some point which would qualify as "nature". Perhaps 30 minutes to an hour.

Jtsummers2• 5 years ago

Check your local city map on Google Maps, you may be surprised to find some "nature" [0] trails within your residential area. They're not always marked well.

[0] In quotes because you're going to be 100-300' from houses on a large portion of these kinds of trails. But they can still offer something nice and scenic compared to walking the suburban sidewalks.

_ph_2• 5 years ago

Thanks, but around here where I live, the area is completely taken with either housing or fields which are farmed. And this is directly around Munich. In a sense, you will find more "nature" in the parks inside the city. Likewise, there are no "trails" because there is basically no unused land, if you don't count the access roads to the fields.

whalesalad• 5 years ago

Why do these things need to be mutually exclusive?

Muromec• 5 years ago

This. Who does psychedelics and sits at home, or even worse at their job.

ldbooth2• 5 years ago

But is a walk more effective than microdosing snake oil? Surely if it works for LSD...

ldbooth2• 5 years ago

It doesn't just apply to walks in nature:

you, without drugs > you, with drugs

each person discovers this in their own time & experience, and each current user justifies his choice vehemently until after they decide to quit.

enragedcacti2• 5 years ago

There are millions of people for whom psychiatric medication makes a huge difference in their day to day life.

2OEH8eoCRo02• 5 years ago

Psychiatric medication that has run a gauntlet of clinical tests/trials and is prescribed by a physician > street drugs

irchans• 5 years ago

From what I understand, low doses LSD or mushrooms sometimes (I think like 20% of the time) creates a long term (six months to permanent) change in mood for severely depressed people. I am also under the impression that there is no extra benefit from repeating doses more than once a year.

I think that walks in nature work significantly more often, but the effect is short term lasting days instead of months or years. Also, walking once or more a week is helpful long term.

93po2• 5 years ago

I have only seen evidence and anecdotes about long term changes from large doses. And repeating every few months or a few times a year.

kderbyma• 5 years ago

I typically go for long walks around my city and try to hit as much green space as possible about once a month. usually will take 2-8 hours and see where I end up. Usually 10-20km. It does wonders for my mind.

71a54xd2• 5 years ago

Clearly this author has missed the point of well - many things... the idea here is to microdose while taking a walk in nature ;)

fasteddie31003• 5 years ago

As someone who recently moved from SF to Breckenridge, CO, I can say nature definitely has a pretty big effect on my mental state. I wouldn't compare it to psychedelics. I think that's a dumb take that is targeted for clicks. Being in nature has little to do with the intense introspection from psychedelics.

There are other metal changes I get from living in nature. I've actually become less ambitious and content with my life. Living in SF was a grind and I think part of the ambition that is in cities come from wanting to improve you living situation. When I'm living in a small town with beautiful nature I have less of a desire to work hard to improve my life because my life already is pretty good. I think more clearly because I'm more physically active and don't drink as much. I don't think I'm any more creative maybe I should microdose more...

amackera• 5 years ago

I've actually become less ambitious and content with my life.

This is really interesting, and something I myself experienced (in reverse) of going from small-town living to a world city with a thriving tech ecosystem.

Now I'm contemplating moving back out into small-town life (I'm sure many city dwellers are thinking along the same lines after being locked inside for a year). I'm concerned that I'll lose my drive and ambition and settle for less in life.

Health and wellness matter more than any achievement or accolade at the end of the day.

h0l0cube6• 5 years ago

Being in nature has little to do with the intense introspection from psychedelics.

Intense introspection has little to do with microdosing

agumonkey• 5 years ago

What about small rivers and ponds ? I had strange experiences sitting near water. The flow, the sound, the reflections.. maybe someone knows about rituals or recent studies about it.

actually_a_dog2• 5 years ago

I'd love to try LSD, or some other, similar psychedelic compound, but I don't even know where to begin sourcing it. I was that kid in high school who never even took a hit off a joint, because "drugs are bad, mmmkay," so I'm a little clueless. :P

emc32• 5 years ago

reddit.com

Seriously, not that you can source directly from there, but give it 20min and you'll figure it out. Hint: BTC & DMs

actually_a_dog2• 5 years ago

Oh, hmm. Well, hypothetically, if I were going to, that sounds like a good idea. Hypothetically, of course.

LatteLazy• 5 years ago

Tor.

zesty_mcbreeze• 5 years ago

Sounds familiar.

"OK, some of you experienced druggies are going to get a chuckle from this. This is a description of my first trip. I grew up in a real conservative environment. I always wanted to hallucinate but I was real scared of LSD. After all, it causes chromosome damage and a lot of the people that trip on it either jump out of windows or end up in a permanent psychosis. Some of the lucky ones that make it through the trip ok suffer from uncontrollable flash backs for the rest of their life. Pretty scary stuff.

I never was around people that used psychedelics much. The few times I had the opportunity, I was unable to find out enough about the source and quality to put my ignorant self at ease. It seemed like I was never going to get to have a psychedelic experience.

Well, I was surfing the net one day and decided to test the reach of information contained on it. I was trying one exotic topic after another in Yahoo. I was amazed at the knowledge contained on the net.

I decided to push it to the limit. I asked about psilocybin. To my amazement, a few indexes to documents came back. I quickly down loaded them and started studying them. I was astonished to find out that the spores for Psilocybe mushrooms could be mail ordered because the spores did not contain any controlled substances. And best of all, there was no overdose for psilocybin."

From the Magic Mushroom Growers' Guide: https://catbull.com/alamut/Bibliothek/Growguide.english/Mmgg...

jhorsager• 5 years ago

This is what you call a false dichotomy.

seaorg• 5 years ago

Microdosing is important for people in Kansas and Mars.

sosuke• 5 years ago

So ... if we combine the two would we get even more benefit? Could it be compounding like alcohol and central nervous system depressants?

gcatalfamo• 5 years ago

I have never microdosed, but I disagree on the pleasantries of walking in nature. Unless specific conditions apply like not being hot or too cold, walkability of the trail, etc. I find myself really stressed after a hike or an unwanted stroll. Insects, sweat, looking where you put tour steps or else…I get really annoyed.

YMMV but it’s probably just me I guess.

Edit: grammar

notdang2• 5 years ago

Yes, looks like these people are living in a temperate zone.

Try to walk through the jungle where I live and lets see after how many minutes you will want to breathe normal air again.

samatman7• 5 years ago

This is the most your-mileage-may-vary thread I've read on HN in a long time!

Taking some hongos with my buddies in the Yucatan was an experience I will always treasure. But at that point in my life it had been at least two months since I'd set foot in air conditioning, we were mostly living on the beaches (I was the token gringo).

heavyset_go2• 5 years ago

If I go without any extended exercise for a while, this is how I feel.

If you force yourself to go for a hike/walk/jog etc, after a few times, that initial discomfort dissipates and it becomes a psychologically and physically rewarding experience. You go from feeling like shit the first few times to feeling refreshed afterwards.

momirlan• 5 years ago

100% agree. However, finding nature in a big city is a challenge. Finding a quiet place in that nature in a big city is a bigger challenge. It's certainly not as simple as "take a 5 min. walk". It might involve driving 30-60 min just to get there.

yosito• 5 years ago

Apples are better than oranges

LargoLasskhyfv4• 5 years ago

Why not combining both?

When having stuff to do in downtown, I usually choose routes which are rich green with large old trees and/or houses whith really nice front lawns bursting with colors by the planted flowers and bushes. Even if it is a slight detour, and thus taking longer to get where I need to be. Though I prefer to be absolutely sober then.

OTOH, walking, or bicyling out of town into the surrounding country, having only the slightest 'buzz' from some weak weed/grass intensifies my perception of the colors, smells, sounds, air currents and temperatures. I'd guess 'microdosing' would be similar?

Oh, and don't forget polarized sunglasses with blue/green tint. That is upping the visuals a notch. Even without direct sunhine, when it's overcast.

Example: the leaves of trees, from afar, or high up in the crown. With bare eyes I see them, but diffuse. With polarized sunglasses I can see every single one of them, their movement in the wind, and even their structure. Similar boost for seeing waves on the river.

gime_tree_fiddy• 5 years ago

With bare eyes I see them, but diffuse. With polarized sunglasses I can see every single one of them, their movement in the wind, and even their structure. Similar boost for seeing waves on the river.

This is eerily similar to what I have experienced. I seem to notice the color of flowers, movement of the leaves whilst wearing polarized sunglasses and some infusion of THC.

LargoLasskhyfv4• 5 years ago

I think there is nothing eerie about it. Pilots often wear them. Captains, other navigators on ships also. What could be the reason? :-) Which reminds me of something I've forgotten to mention. Clouds in the sky change from diffuse to 3D :-)

unifiedtheory8• 5 years ago

good point, considering it

elwell• 5 years ago

Also: native scrolling is better than smooth-scroll.js

PaulHoule• 5 years ago

Better yet you take the whole of dose and then walk in Nature.

Closely related Psilocybin is the only sacrament that is clinically proven to work better than a placebo:

https://www.wired.com/2013/10/timothy-leary-archives/

and it is widely believe to enhance the outdoor experience as well.

bjt2n3904• 5 years ago

Here's the biggest issue: none of this is is scientific. None of it is quantifiable, none of it is repeatable, none of it is falsifiable.

Oh, I'm sure you can take a lab rat, vivisect him, introduce certain chemicals, and observe a change in behavior. But you can't do that with people.

Furthermore, behavior is one thing. But the mind -- human consciousness -- is more than the physical organ of the brain.

When the doctors prescribe medication to rectify a "chemical imbalance" in your brain, they aren't actually preforming a measurement. And what's more, after the medication is administered, there's no objective test to determine if the treatment is effective.

How do you measure depression? What are the units? You've got nothing but a subjective assessment. "This feels better." Or "This does not." At the end, microdosing is no more scientific than healing crystals, religion, or taking a walk in the park.

And yet, I absolutely believe a walk in nature is better than a chemically induced lobotomy.

unifiedtheory8• 5 years ago

the article has link to research measuring objective indicators

lolc• 5 years ago

I can see how the author wants us to learn about this awesome life hack of going for walks. However, one can microdose and take walks at the same time. So the question becomes: How do they stack? Unfortunately, this was not explored.

walterlb• 5 years ago

This reads like one of those cookie cutter mass produced "Article about a Thing" you find when searching for almost anything these days

heavyset_go2• 5 years ago

I'll go as far as to say that the benefits you can get from psychedelics, you can also get from meditation. The former can be a valuable shortcut, but the latter is sustainable and good for well-being.

samatman7• 5 years ago

What a bizarre artifact of a very specific subculture.

I would wager that, not only is walking in nature more popular than microdosing (lol, c'mon, that's a gimme) but that regular ol' dosing and walking in nature is also more popular than microdosing.

As compromises go, "minidosing" and taking a hike is pretty nice! I found (back when I made a habit of such things) that the smallest amount of your psychedelic-of-choice that you would definitely feel was a good match for wandering around and enjoying the splendor of the world.

I truly wonder what prompted someone to contrast two of the most complementary activities I can think of in this way. Takes all types I guess.

mlang23• 5 years ago

Wow, seriously weird. These "microdosing reports" feel a bit like BitCoin propaganda. I mean, like if someone was trying to establish a market that wouldn't exist by simple demand. So demand is being created by telling people in a sneaky way that they are kind of missing out on something. Besides, I would choose a nice walk in the woods everytime over microdosing a psychedelic. For one, inhaling nature directly and having your senses recalibrated to natural events is just wonderful, and microdosing is simply too shallow to make up for that. If you draw a comparison, I guess you need to compare to a full trip. And even that is best done out in the nature :-)

Madhouse61• 5 years ago

I began trail running about a month ago, nothing excessive but enough to break into a decent sweat and send my heart rate up. One thing I've taken away from this is the extasy and clarity of mind experienced post-run is truly fascinating. What's better and I say this to you Anecdotally, was the almost recursive Impetus of ideas that began to flow to me in the latter hours of the day.

A walk in nature is better than microdosing

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