Paul Stamets on the interrelationship among mushrooms, consciousness, and nature

http://nautil.us/issue/90/something-green/how-psilocybin-can-save-the-environment

by dnetesn • 6 years ago

231 152 6 years ago

I've been microdosing psilocybin daily for the past six months during quarantine as a bit of a cognitive experiment. I feel a lot more switched on and focused in my work. Reading these posts I wonder what other diseases such as Parkinson's, seizures, PTSD, depression, anxiety have yet to be studied and require more research. Can anyone speak to this? Anything else I should add to my stack?

trabant003• 6 years ago

I've been microdosing psilocybin daily for the past six months [...] I didn't get COVID and I feel a lot more switched on and focused

You lost your causation vs correlation sense though :)

agumonkey• 6 years ago

he's now fully quantum

qz22• 6 years ago

Nailed it.

A lot of the "I did this and it had great effects" are compounded with "I did this and it ruined my life" and a bit of "I did this and it ruined my life and everyone around me". I suspect the human mind is tailored to promote the first outcome and stick it's fingers in its metaphorical ears about the last two outcomes.

Turns out we need actual formal studies and even those aren't necessarily conclusive so it's best to err on the side of caution.

PakG1• 6 years ago

This sounds too much like Billions season 5 episode 7. Uncanny. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtJNljm1pVs

f69281c• 6 years ago

The self-reported positive effects hallucinogens are awful.

They alter your perception so your perception of perceived benefits is unreliable, and anyone who's not tripping can tell you that. I mean, with full doses the reported benefits are things like connecting with the thread of the universe and speaking across planes to dimensional beings that inform you that we're all one, but the word fractal is jammed in there somewhere. I'm not saying these people can't have fun, but pulling THAT experience back to just reduced levels of the drug is probably still going to give terrible accuracy for self reported results.

Microdosing reminds me of those people who left high school parties saying it was fine because they drive better drunk, or that they took some coke to balance it out.

dmos622• 6 years ago

Nice to have such a steady access to psilocybin. Why not LSD, by the way?

I've been microdosing psilocybin daily for the past six months, [...] I didn't get COVID.

Made me laugh.

emteycz• 6 years ago

Isn't the tolerance to LSD built way too fast for daily (micro)usage over half a year?

dkersten2• 6 years ago

Why not LSD

At least this [1] suggests that LSD microdosing doesn’t do anything, while there have been a few studies that suggested psilocybin micrososing does. Dunno how strong the evidence is in either direction but that would make me more inclined to start with psilocybin if I were to experiment myself.

[1] https://www.gwern.net/LSD-microdosing#conclusion

andai2• 6 years ago

Easier to grow in the cupboard :)

BrianOnHN• 6 years ago

What size micro dose?

Personally, I've concluded I cannot be productive with even as little as 100-200mg of cubes.

Out_of_Characte2• 6 years ago

mcg, I presume. But 200mcg is a really high dose. 10-20 would be a microdose for most. I hope you test your stuff and have the right potency because your comment doesn't sound right.

WalterSear5• 6 years ago

5-7 mg. 10mg verges on a perceptual dose for me.

phkahler2• 6 years ago

> I feel a lot more switched on and focused in my work.

Quarantine alone can do that for some people. Shutting out the world is a requirement to focus on deep work. Same reason Joel Spolsky says software engineers need offices with doors.

Not saying you're wrong, just that you cant separate out this obvious factor in your experiment.

chrisweekly• 6 years ago

Lots of questions; top 2:

How did you get started?

Is there a reasonably safe (both medically and legally) way to source it?

cakemuncher2• 6 years ago

1. Going into this, you need to research a ton. 2. Know someone that sells it. Or look for a field for them and go hunting. Or grow them, spores are legal and you can buy everything you need online.

WalterSear5• 6 years ago

There are many places online that will ship spores where it is legal to have spores. Many places discussing it, too.

dezmou4• 6 years ago

I started microdosing psilocybin since 3 years, sometime every day, sometime once every 1 or 2 weeks. When I take it the morning, I am very focused on my work, but also I am less stressed and anxious. I had a Tinder period with lot of date and psilocybin really help to build confident with women.

throw_this_one2• 6 years ago

Do you take the psilocybin specifically before the date? Or just in general, the microdosing has made you better with women

andai2• 6 years ago

Interesting, when I was microdosing LSD I was much more social: less social anxiety, more outgoing and more friendly. (A nicer person, as far as I can tell!) Also I was able to consistently keep an early bedtime for the first time in my life.

The most interesting effect for me was that it became impossible to procrastinate. (I normally spend 99% of my time procrastinating.) I would go on YouTube or Reddit but the whole time I was just consciously aware that I was trying to distract myself from something... so in the end it was easier to just go ahead and do the damn thing to get it off my mind. Very productive time for me.

say_it_as_it_is2• 6 years ago

Lion's Mane mushroom is being marketed by Stamets

Gys• 6 years ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psilocybin: 'a naturally occurring psychedelic prodrug compound produced by more than 200 species of fungus'

browsergrip• 6 years ago

Paul stamets is also the name of the Astromycologist on Star trek discovery.

choeger• 6 years ago

What an absolute random coincidence! What are the chances? ;)

narag3• 6 years ago

Obviously. The ship has an experimental drive based on mushrooms.

bdcravens3• 6 years ago

He even consulted with the writers on that technology.

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Paul_Stamets_(mycologis...

TeMPOraL• 6 years ago

Yeah, I have a feeling that's why I see his name so often on HN these days. The show propelled him to wider recognition.

bluntfang• 6 years ago

Joe Rogan did more for his general populace celebrity status than Star Trek

throwaway316943• 6 years ago

Lol, sure, must be from Star Trek.

carapace3• 6 years ago

One of the weirdest things about that show. Who does that? Did they ask him for permission first?

bdcravens3• 6 years ago

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Paul_Stamets_(mycologis...

Yes, and he had input into the show.

cperciva• 6 years ago

Yes, they consulted him and got his permission: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/paul-stamets...

bdcravens3• 6 years ago

This is intentional, and the real Stamets had input on the show.

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Paul_Stamets_(mycologis...

trabant003• 6 years ago

I'm sorry but this is just hippy nonsense. It's not the lack of mental integration into nature that is stopping us from taking care of the enverionment. And you don't need to trip on mushrooms to see the filth all arround us.

The real issues include: not being able to stop production and consumption for obvious reasons. Energy production and distribution logistics. Understanding natural ecosystems and setting priorities on how to protect them. Sharing the world with neighbours that can outcompete you because they don't pay the high costs of clean industry. And many more real hard problems, not just a state of mind.

tldr: this article is the equivalent of "why can't we all just get along" plan for world peace.

quantumwoke3• 6 years ago

I find it best to argue in good faith when coming to these kinds of low-data conversations. There are obviously many such factors involved in our integration with the environment. Why couldn't it be psilocybin (or other nootropic compound) that pushes us towards a more sustainable future with fewer mental health/chronic pain issues? This is a classic HN takedown of an otherwise interesting post.

Ygg22• 6 years ago

It's still the argument based on consumption. Let's consume X, surely that will sort our issue of emitting too much CO2.

Edit: not to mention. Our environmental problems aren't consumption or conscience, or even technology based, but lack of political will.

lostmsu• 6 years ago

I don't see how psylocybin is any different than cucumbers or alternative medicine, unless we confirm otherwise with rigorous studies. While they might be out there, this piece is not one of them.

notahacker2• 6 years ago

I find it best to argue in good faith when coming to these kinds of low-data conversations.

Nobody on here would say the same about arguments in favour of the magical power of acai berry, and I see no reason why we should treat even more extraordinary zero-data claims of a 'self taught, uncredentialled' guy who sells mushroom based supplements for a living[1] with a greater degree of deference.

There's actual research going on into psychedelics potentially benefiting people with depression or Alzheimers, but we don't need to put people explaining that mass consumption of psychoactives is a viable alternative to industrialisation and will create more Einsteins on the same pedestal

[1]https://fungi.com/pages/about-us

vmception2• 6 years ago

The article was an interview with a headline chosen by someone else.

The points were about appreciating biodiversity and neurogenesis and it was very interesting. The headline was hyperbole and successful.

akvadrako• 6 years ago

And you don't need to trip on mushrooms to see the filth all arround us.

For you. A lot of people don't see what's around them on a daily basis, good or bad. Mushrooms can help with that since they remove a lot of the filters we have built up.

TheAdamAndChe• 6 years ago

We put in filters as an adaptation to help live in such an environment. If we remove those filters for things that we can't change, won't it make everyone needlessly miserable?

benibela• 6 years ago

An example of useless filters: today I spent like 15 minutes searching for my teapot on my kitchen bench.

I did not find it.

Later I walked in my kitchen and immediately spotted the teapot. It was standing next to the kettle in the middle of the kitchen bench, the same place where it has been standing for the last 2 years...

k33n• 6 years ago

I thought these types “believed in science” yet here we are just casually stating that if we all do shrooms, the environment will be “saved”. Can’t make this stuff up.

phkahler2• 6 years ago

It's just like all the practical uses of hemp we used to hear about.

atom-morgan• 6 years ago

Aren't governments getting in the way of those uses?

dkdbejwi383• 6 years ago

Well I'll tell you, I bought 500m of hemp rope because I was told it could use used to replace copper cabling for green electricity, ye knar?. It didn't work like, but I have now got the most environmentally friendly footstool in all of Middlesbrough.

jatgoodwin• 6 years ago

The problem with psychedelics is they only make you "more" of what you are. It's the spotlighting effect multiplied. Especially when "bad" people take them they just become even more of an asshole, or dare I say when stupid people take them they just revel in the intoxication.

You just have to read the old research literature on LSD like stuff from James Fadiman to understand that these are extremely dangerous substances that can cause trauma and other serious psychological problems if not used extremely specifically and carefully. If a subject is carefully prepared and trained in the weeks leading up to a trip, then carefully guided through by a psychologist in a 3 day process, then psychedelics have been proven in studies to be used to solve problems effectively. This isn't something you can do on your own.

It's this bizarre problem of we've been lied to for so long about the dangers of these drugs that the actual dangers get buried and nobody talks about the very real possibility of having PTSD flashbacks for the rest of your life to a moment when you were tripping then you start tripping again and have to run for your serquel.

humbleMouse• 6 years ago

“This isn’t something you can do on your own”

I’m gonna have to push back here. Go rent a cabin in the woods and eat some mushrooms and I guarantee you can work thru issues on your own.

ScouterRich• 6 years ago

I used to think like that, then I met someone who's best friend committed suicide while under the influence of psilocybin mushrooms. Psychedelics are powerful, and it is irresponsible to suggest, let alone guarantee, that they will benefit everyone.

adamsea2• 6 years ago

Agree w/the other poster. It really can depend on the person. And not everyone has the self-awareness / background knowledge to prepare themselves well.

Not unlike how some people don't handle alcohol well.

Once or twice seen folks in bad places on mushrooms.

Because of the shift in perspective caused by psychedelics, I think beginning, if nothing else, with a friend is a very, very good idea. Plus the benefit of an informed outside perspective is one of the pluses of therapy.

netcan2• 6 years ago

As you say, there are risks and benefits. "How" matters a lot.

I think you exaggerate though. A lot of the risk is down to extremely irresponsible use... many steps removed from the high level of medical supervision you laid out.

The basics are some mental preparation, a trip sitter, correct dosage and a proper set. I don't consider psychologists the only or necessarily best guides.

Like all drugs (including alcohol), they can interact with preexisting susceptibilities to mental illness. Being an experience, it can also cause trauma. So can non drug experiences, like rock climbing. Dosage, set, setting & preparation mitigate these a lot.

Psychedelics are not a danger free activity, but like most dangerous activities most of the irl dangers are from ignoring safety entirety. FWIW, I think the more normalised, discussed and non judgemental psychodelic drug culture becomes, the more responsible users tend to be.

..And for comparison, it's a lot safer than many sports and hobbies.

erikerikson2• 6 years ago

it's a lot safer than many sports and hobbies.

What is the basis for this claim? How do we measure mental injury? What quantities are we talking about?

bigbubba2• 6 years ago

Like all drugs (including alcohol), they can interact with [...]

Interesting aside, some mushrooms contain the mycotoxin coprine. Coprine is normally harmless but can make you quite ill if combined with alcohol. Common ink caps are generally considered edible but contain this toxin. This toxin can be used to treat alcoholism and a similar substance (disulfiram) has been approved by the FDA for this purpose.

wavefunction• 6 years ago

While your post has some truth I have to reject your general premise that an individual can't derive any value without some sort of formalized framework. It's simply not true.

narag3• 6 years ago

The parallel I was making in my mind was sex. There are all kind of risks and corresponding safety measures, preparations... you can write a comment like the gp without changing too much.

So many times it happens in suboptimal conditions, specially the glorified first times.

stolenmerch• 6 years ago

I hope more people read what you wrote. While I do think some people actually can do this on their own, everyone is different. When people have profoundly positive experiences on psilocybin or other substances, it can be tempting to feel they've tapped into some kind of universal truth and they naturally want to share that with others. Psychedelics affect people differently at different times and it's certainly not always a beautiful trip into cosmic consciousness and love - even at low doses. It's cliche, but set and setting matter, especially to measure any kind of clinical benefits.

playingchanges• 6 years ago

The ‘more of what you already are’ idea seems very reductionist and unhelpful to me.

There are definitely real risks that need to be made known around pre existing mental conditions and psychedelic use. Those are appreciated.

But your thesis suggests that transformative experiences are unlikely to happen which from personal experience I can say is false. The impact of a breakthrough psychedelic experience can be profoundly positive especially for those starting from a less enlightened place.

BUT everyone knows that guy who has the “I’m Jesus” moment instead of “we’re all Jesus” and it’s usually easy to see it coming in retrospect.

acituan• 6 years ago

transformative experiences are unlikely to happen which from personal experience I can say is false. The impact of a breakthrough psychedelic experience can be profoundly positive especially for those starting from a less enlightened place.

I don’t think they are downplaying the transformative potential, but saying that you don’t get to choose what you transform to. Increase in neuroticism is also a type of transformation that occurs with psychedelics that seems to be downplayed or exclusively attributed to set and setting.

Anything that gets you out of your default mode network and amplifies your brain activity non-selectively will indeed be that “more of you” as OP claims, and where you land or how much of that experience you can integrate heavily depends on your original psychological organization.

sev• 6 years ago

The only idea conveyed in your message that has any factual basis is that psychedelics should be taken with a lot of care, preparation, and consideration, including pre existing susceptibilities.

Everything else you said builds on top of this idea as if they are also fact based, but they are not. Let’s not make the social acceptance of psychedelics even harder than they already have been made to be.

mistermann4• 6 years ago

You have noticed something very interesting about the nature of human consciousness and the way it conceptualizes the world, and the events, ideas, people, etc within it. Other examples of this phenomenon can be observed in this thread, and all other threads on any topic.

I propose that this phenomenon can be productively explored and ~understood with the usage of psychedelics if one goes in with this specific intention.

say_it_as_it_is2• 6 years ago

I've paid attention over the last few years to what is being said about psilocybin in pop media. It seems that the problem isn't as you said but rather that it isn't being used in a clinical setting with a qualified therapist where a patient under the influence may break through barriers preventing recovery.

blindm• 6 years ago

The problem with psychedelics is they only make you "more" of what you are

And when you're ready to surrender your ego for a while, and realize that 'what you are' is star stuff, the experience is amazing. I agree with your sentiment, and set and setting are very important. I know people who prepare for months before they trip, making sure nobody's going to be calling their phone, curating the right music to listen to, maybe attending some art exhibitions beforehand, etc

sibeliuss2• 6 years ago

Especially when "bad" people take them they just become even more of an asshole, or dare I say when stupid people take them they just revel in the intoxication

How terribly narrow minded this statement is when faced with the complexity of the experience.

And to state the obvious -- "bad" people are often victims of trauma, and working with these substances in a directed way can get to the root of these traumas in a way that frees the person from said trauma. It's a process that doesn't happen overnight, but sometimes it does, and miraculously so.

mordechai9000• 6 years ago

working with these substances in a directed way can get to the root of these traumas in a way that frees the person from said trauma

I believe this to be true, but op has a valid point. Many people take these drugs for purely recreational reasons, in uncontrolled settings, with no intention of seeking a transformative experience. They are "reveling in the intoxication", although I don't think that necessarily makes them stupid.

chillacy• 6 years ago

old research literature on LSD like stuff from James Fadiman

True, much of the research before we knew about set and setting approached the substances as psycho-mimetic, or substances that induce psychosis.

Aldous Huxley described them as the "gates to heaven and hell".

The problem with psychedelics is they only make you "more" of what you are.

I think that's oversimplifying, the drug is a serotonin agonist, it tends to have some pretty predictable results. For example a large number of trips go in the general direction of "love is all we need"(Sam Harris, Waking Up).

nobody talks about the very real possibility of having PTSD flashbacks

There are risks of bad experiences for sure, yet there are benefits for many people too. At the end of the day, "controlled substance which can be used under supervision" is not a bad place to be. Michael Pollan points out that psilocybin was highly ritualized in the cultures which used them, they were sacred and non-recreational.

voisin• 6 years ago

Especially when "bad" people take them they just become even more of an asshole

Is this true? I have not partaken, but everything I have read is that people see the interconnection and interrelatedness of all things, which would seem to cause a “bad person” to become less of an asshole. Am I wrong on this?

travisjungroth4• 6 years ago

It can go both ways. Some people watch their memories and realize they’re not the hero of the story, not even the villain, but just a jerk. And some people come back even more full of themselves. They’re so proud of this amazing thing they did and how amazing it makes them.

wholinator2• 6 years ago

Personally, I have never seen a person become a worse person after a psychedelic trip, and I've been around this a lot. I have seen many selfish and hateful people seeing outside their perceptions for the first time and finally realizing that they are a human just like everyone else, not some perfect saint free of flaws, or whatever else they had concocted in their head through the lens societal norms.

There are people, particularly among the younger, that take the drugs to "get f'd up". And I've seen those people have great times and come back more grounded and with more respect for reality, and I've seen those people have horrific experiences, in which their ego's are stripped and they are forced to see the impact their behavior has on the whole. Those experiences usually affect for much longer and are more immediately negative. But from what I've seen of those, the people who change most for the better are the ones that have the most to change, and the one's that have the most to change usually have the more intense/difficult realizations. There are such things as bad trips and there are people that come out worse, I won't deny that. But what I've seen is that the difficult experiences end up being the most valuable. It usually hurts to realise your whole life has been meaningless chasing of someone else's dream, or that you've been an asshole to everyone and making the world a worse place. But you can't intentionally change what you don't know exists.

jdkee• 6 years ago

The article above is discussing psilocybin not LSD. Those are two completely different substances with different effects.

I highly recommend you read Michael Pollan's book "How to Chnage Your Mind" if you wish to become informed on the use and effects of psilocybin along with other psychoactive compuonds.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Change_Your_Mind

elevenoh• 6 years ago

The problem with psychedelics is they only make you "more" of what you are.

I've personally seen redirection, or orienting toward one's best self, more often than simply 'amplification of who you already are'.

yowlingcat• 6 years ago

The problem with psychedelics is they only make you "more" of what you are.

Not sure about "only" but I do think it's a valid thing to be aware of. It's only one half of the classical "set and setting" and the latter is really key. Are you doing it alone / who are you doing it with?

these are extremely dangerous substances that can cause trauma and other serious psychological problems if not used extremely specifically and carefully

Don't know about this one either. I think it's certainly true that it can trigger latent trauma that hasn't been dealt with. But that's by no means a guarantee.

My take with this sort of stuff is that it's not really healthy to have an absolutist prohibitionist approach nor a free for all. I think the right approach is for interested parties to gently ramp up in the setting of an experienced sitter who can help reorient them.

This isn't something you can do on your own.

This is probably the only part of your statement I'd categorically disagree with. Again, depends on the person, the set and the setting. Highly situational. Don't know if it's helpful to try and oversimplify this kind of thing.

ghthor• 6 years ago

Yes, psychidelics are more dangerous than alcohol. /s

BatteryMountain• 6 years ago

So what about all the bad people becoming peaceful after a weekend with some mushrooms/ayahuasca/san pedro? Are we just going ignore people who had a complete personality flip?

Although.. some truth lies here. These plants and experiences can help attune you to your real nature. In your heart you might be softy, but a meanie in usual life. The plants can maybe help you express your softy side better and become more attuned to that nature, until it is your dominant expression. Which means the person might have had a false meanie personality expression for some reason (coping/defence mechanisms to trauma/abuse/hard life).

I think maybe the whole point to these plants/experiences are to teach us it is impossible to get clear cut black/white answers that our brains so easily digest and accept. It might help us accept that we won't have good answers for certain things and to accept certain things for what they are (broken family, disability etc).

I like the word "attune" when it comes to this stuff. I feel that we have an internal nature/essence that wants to be expressed. We can attune our minds to resonate or be on the same channel as the inner state (or soul or god being or whatever you want to call it). The first thing I like to do when relaxing (without any substances (or with them)) is to try and shake off my personality and step into the attuned state - step into the shoes of the inner child/being and feel it's energy, and try and have a conversation with it, ask it how it is, does it need anything, is it happy, and tell it that you love it with all your heart and thank it for giving you energy and love. In that moment I/you can become fully attuned with it and feel your power and creativity as cosmic being. While you are at it, imagine you and this being are made of light and that you are travelling through the cosmos together at light speed, that you feel the energy/intent of the universe flowing over and into you and it makes you happy. While sitting, raise your hand and feel the cosmic wind through your fingers and feel them grasp through the fabric of reality...

Sounds silly, I know. But do it the next time while under the influence, and see what you feel. It might change your life to commune with your inner being.

fyi I'm not relgious, it's just fun thought experiments that might feel nice.

chiefgeek• 6 years ago

Have you ever taken psychedelics?

spaetzleesser• 6 years ago

I am all for legalization but this stuffs sound exactly like what was written a few years about Marijuana. There were tons of articles about how Marijuana use will do things like saving the environment, saves the rain forest, cure cancer and so on. For some reason like to overshoot with this predictions of the benefits of these things. In the end our capitalist world will probably prevail and whatever expansion of consciousness happens will be at the surface level.

defterGoose2• 6 years ago

I think it's much more likely that "our capitalist world" will drive us off a cliff rather than into a bright future. We have absolutely zero precedent for the changes we are facing. However, I do believe individuals still have agency in the world. We have to try at least, I guess.

ArtWomb• 6 years ago

Related: Berkeley launches new center for psychedelic research

https://news.berkeley.edu/2020/09/14/uc-berkeley-launches-ne...

TedDoesntTalk• 6 years ago

Evolution is the evolution of intelligence

Where can I read more of this idea?

carapace3• 6 years ago

Gregory Bateson, "Steps to an Ecology of Mind" and "Mind and Nature: A Necessary Unity".

toss12• 6 years ago

I received some very helpful wisdom on this topic, many years ago in my early teens, from a random guy I met on a beach.

He said "if you are interested in tripping, you'll almost surely do it. Just be sure to never feel pressured to do it at any one time - it'll always be there. When you do, just be sure you feel comfortable, not tense, and are in a good situation, among friends, and so on. ", basically how to avoid bad trips.

Only did a handful of times, but every time was totally worth it, mind expanding, and enjoyable. Definite thanks in no small part to the wisdom from a random stranger.

travisjungroth4• 6 years ago

I think that because psychedelics are illegal part of why people do them is to satisfy their need for danger. This is the person who thinks “why the hell not!” when taking acid for the first time from a stranger at a party. They’re in this rule breaking mindset already, so stuff like “set and setting” is just one more rule to break.

It’s like if scuba diving was illegal. I’m doubtful that people would do it as carefully.

The advice you got from that stranger seems like a good antidote to that mindset. “It’ll always be there.” That sentence alone seems to take the edge off. You don’t have to take it just because you were offered. It’ll come by again.

toss12• 6 years ago

yup, peer pressure is probably the worst reason to do anything!

michalf6• 6 years ago

It can't save the environment from cultures that will bulldoze over incapacitated and non-competing westerners who buy this hippie nonsense.

Is there any good data on the effects of taking psychedelics on aggression / ambition / aggreableness / conscientiousness? The "becoming one with Nature" theme seems to be pretty common among enthusiasts, although I personally didn't notice a lasting effect after eating shrooms. I'm curious if there's a cause-effect relationship or it's just bias in people who gravitate to this.

animal_spirits3• 6 years ago

I was curious and decided to look it up. Turns out there is a peer reviewed Journal of Psychopharmacology that has many published papers on topics that you mention.

https://journals.sagepub.com/home/jop

currymj4• 6 years ago

Stamets himself is quite a successful entrepreneur, as one data point. He funds much of his research out of the proceeds from his business selling mushroom-based products.

WalterSear5• 6 years ago

His mushroom-based products are well known for containing only trace amounts of the active ingredients. They are a scam and beg question of Stamet's claims and motives.

sibeliuss2• 6 years ago

In the article Stamets very clearly uses the term "heroic dose" -- meaning, he's differentiating from the experience one has when casually dabbling.

(Note I am not recommending that one takes a heroic dose -- experience and a guide is absolutely required here -- only that transformative experiences tend to happen during high dose experiences and that lower dose experiences are mostly just topical, relaxing and fun.)

colordrops2• 6 years ago

Usually users on HN are conscientious and civil, until they are out of their comfort zone or world view, then it becomes like any other trashy forum with insults like "hippie nonsense".

Science and data are some of the best tools humans have ever found, but they are not the sole arbiters of truth and efficacy.

lethologica• 6 years ago

I would highly suggest reading "The Immortality Key" by Brian C. Muraresku before dismissing this all as "hippie nonsense"

filoeleven3• 6 years ago

One celebrated study found that drug-naïve volunteers who were given psilocybin experienced lasting increases in openness to experience that were evident more than a year later.
Openness to experience refers to the breadth, depth and complexity of a person’s mental life. People high in openness to experience tend to be intellectually curious, artistically sensitive, interested in new experiences, and have an active imagination.

None of these are direct counters to aggression, but I’d argue that they all contribute to keeping one’s bulldozers at bay.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/unique-everybody-els...

currymj4• 6 years ago

i don't like this argument at all. protecting the environment is an immense responsibility that we all share, so the argument veers close to implying that choosing not to take psychedelic drugs is morally wrong -- willfully choosing to inhibit "evolutionary intelligence".

i've noticed that in the last couple years, psychedelic advocates have shifted from advocating for legalization and increased research (very good in my view), to being very defensive about possible dangers, to applying social pressure against people who don't want to take psychedelics. of course this only happens right now in certain limited social circles, but it is spreading.

not a good trend in my view, and not very reassuring if psychedelics are supposed to help people be more enlightened and open-minded.

mistermann4• 6 years ago

I would place myself solidly into this category of people, although I try to avoid the negative behaviors that you validly point out.

In response, I ask: how confident are you in your (as I see it) perception/estimation that psychedelics do not (or, are highly unlikely to) have some genuine (in fact) quality that could bring immense value to the world? If we were to find a way to use them in the proper ways (which would include close integration with scientific study of the ongoing process), does it seem reasonably plausible to you that some sort of a significant achievement could be achieved?

currymj4• 6 years ago

i think if they really work well as part of treatment for PTSD and other aftereffects of trauma, and perhaps other mental illnesses, that would be of profound value for humanity.

as far as people taking them in general: from looking at people who take psychedelics, it doesn't seem to me that they're any more or less enlightened or emotionally mature than people who don't. whatever the subjective experience, it seems like all the flaws and foibles of humanity are still there just as much.

it does seem like it teaches people a particular outlook or way of relating to the world -- but I don't think it's one that is superior or inferior to other perspectives. Probably society needs people who relate to life in many different ways.

I would worry about living in a society where it is the norm for everyone to take psychedelic drugs multiple times per year. I think things would get pretty weird.

filoeleven3• 6 years ago

At least one psychedelic advocate said that living a life without having a psychedelic experience is like living a life without having sex. He didn’t say that was a morally- wrong decision, only that you miss out on a deeply human, deeply significant experience which has a profound effect on how you view the world.

The choice to do either of these should be made freely and consciously, and each of them can be culturally restricted or promoted in healthy or unhealthy ways. The line between “healthy” and “unhealthy” is going to be different for everyone. I think a good thought exercise is to compare and contrast modern psychedelic advocacy with the 20th century’s sexual revolution.

talentedcoin• 6 years ago

I have to agree with this and have noticed the same thing in my circles. It’s like travel. It should make you more open-minded and more well rounded, and yet ... there are people for whom it does just the opposite ...

grimzucchini• 6 years ago

Terence McKenna would be agree.

dghughes• 6 years ago

I saw this on Twitter today (mushroom related) by Dr. Inés Dawson.

Why do mushrooms always have double-barrelled surnames? They're hyphae-nated!

carapace3• 6 years ago

See also "What Bodies Think About: Bioelectric Computation Outside the Nervous System" (youtube.com) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18736698

jp0d4• 6 years ago

I got a call from a friend today, who is dealing with depression. He has ready many such articles and has been microdosing on psilocybin mushrooms. He wanted my help to be with him as a sober person when he goes through the experience. I had to say no. I've two simple reasons.

1. Mushrooms are illegal in Australia. I don't want him or I to be part of any illegal activity.

2. Even though he argued that the big pharma wouldn't let this happen etc, modern medicine has saved so many lives that we at least should try to understand it better. I requested him to see a psychiatrist and go through therapy. Talk to the to professional and seek natural alternatives to prescription medicine, if available.

I could be wrong in my opinion. As a student of statistics, I'd love to read some study results on the effect of psilocybin before believing this.

DanBC• 6 years ago

I'm not a healthcare professional.

Depression is an umbrella term and it covers a wide range of different things, and a wide range of severity. At its most severe depression is a fatal illness. It is safe[1] to ask people if they've considered suicide. If people have suicidal thoughts this is a medical emergency.

If someone has situational depression they may need support to help fix the situation or to cope with it if it's not fixable.

If someone has a depression that doesn't appear to have a cause there's a variety of things that people try. These don't work for everyone. Some of them have worse evidence bases.

1) Lifestyle changes. These include sleep hygiene (good evidence), exercise (not great evidence but there is sign of some benefit), food (not great evidence), and cutting down on alcohol (good evidence). MH professionals have a concept called "activation". As depression takes hold the person loses track of their routines and habits, and they enter a cycle of not doing anything because they're in a low mood, and being in a low mood because they don't do anything. Activation is part of treatment and it involves gradually building up your routines as treatment progresses.

2) Meds. Meds can be split into roughly 5 groups: Tricyclics (avoid if you can), MAOIs (only used for severe treatment resistant depression), SSRIs/SSNIs/NASAs/etc (reasonable evidence base, some people need to cycle through a few to find one that works, some people have unpleasant discontinuation effects), supplements (St John's Wort etc. I'd avoid these unless you're sure the product is good quality, but if you're taking something it's probably better to take real meds), and then things like ketamine which is new and so will be difficult to get for a while. (It's probably useful, it's probably not the miracle drug they claim).

3) Talking therapy. The one with the best evidence base is cognitive behaviour therapy. This is a time-limited therapy with a maximum of 21 weeks, but you can do less if you need less. It's talking about your emotions and thoughts today. It doesn't go into your past. This means it's less suitable for people with trauma in their history.

When we look at effectiveness, meds are effective for about 60% of the people who try them. CBT is effective for about 60% of the people who try it (although that figure is lower because it's mostly based on the English implementation of CBT which can be only 6 weeks over the telephone instead of up to 21 weeks face to face).

Talking to a professional is a good idea. Psychiatrists usually do diagnosis and medication, although some do talking therapy too. Psychologists usually do either diagnosis or formulation, and will offer a range of talking therapies, and sometimes a bit of a mix to suit. It would be good if your friend had a clear ideas about what they wanted to focus on in treatment and what their goals are, although obviously that can be tricky if their thinking is muddled.

You mentioned drug use. Some people do report remarkable, life-changing, experiences after using psychedelics. But it's important to remember that a few people have bad experiences, and some people are harmed. In general (at least in the UK) people who take psychedelics have a good reputation for harm minimisation and responsible drug use, so if you can find a forum you're likely to get good advice and advice that you can check against other sources.

In England this is the guidance for treatment that patients can expect: https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg90

Hope things pick up a bit for your friend.

[1] A bit more about suicide. Asking people is safe; get people to make a safety plan; get them to seek help.

The Zero Suicide Alliance have a 20-30 minute free training video here: https://www.zerosuicidealliance.com/training

https://themighty.com/2020/08/study-safe-to-ask-about-suicid...

https://www.prevent-suicide.org.uk/

jp0d4• 6 years ago

Thank you for the comment. I don't know much about it. I actually have three friends who're going though it. One of them is seeing a psychiatrist and is coping well. The second (who called me) has been self-dosing on these natural medication. And third one has been hit the worst. He is alone and can't access proper treatment. He doesn't talk to many people due to anxiety issues. And he is outside my lockdown zone, so I can't even visit him, unfortunately. I make sure that I at least text them every once in a while to find out how they're doing. I'll read through the guide and see if I can do more to help.

jp0d4• 6 years ago

Wow.. Already been downvoted. I think my advice wasn't wrong. Going through such experience with someone like me who doesn't understand it can be risky. Hence, I suggested to see a psychiatrist.

weerd• 6 years ago

The advice was not wrong. You probably would not have been a great sitter, and it's best to recognize that.

Your comment comes off in the wrong way for a thread about muyshrooms.

seventhtiger• 6 years ago

From my research into the topic I've labeled microdosing under "cool homeopathy".

L_226• 6 years ago

Obligatory video of Stamets on the Joe Rogan Experience (it's not terrible!): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJ6Ym719urg

Paul Stamets on the interrelationship among mushrooms, consciousness, and nature

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