Ram Dass has died

https://tricycle.org/trikedaily/ram-dass-dies/

by okareaman • 7 years ago

372 192 7 years ago

okareaman7• 7 years ago

"If there is an enduring figure emblematic of the consciousness revolution of the 1960s and 70s, it is arguably the Harvard professor and LSD researcher-turned-spiritual leader born Richard Alpert but known the world over as Ram Dass."

kick4• 7 years ago

This hit like a truck. I don't feel sad, but I do feel strongly about it. Hope he met death in peace and excitement.

okareaman7• 7 years ago

Same here. I surprised myself by shedding a few tears, but they were happy tears for a man and life well lived. His living example and teachings helped me in many ways over the years, starting with the practice of living in the moment or "Be Here Now" up to his talks on subjects like addiction. Here he discusses his own addiction to food and the anxiety behind it: Overcoming Addiction & Attachment - Ram Dass https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV7PyQDod40

lostgame• 7 years ago

“Be Here Now” absolutely clusterfucked my brain when I first read it, on LSD.

This is sad news, but who knows what is beyond death’s door? He was done of the few who not only sought out Death’s address but also mapped out the neighborhood.

dvfjsdhgfv• 7 years ago

His name is Ram, not RAM. I find this kind of headline editorializing inapropriate given the circumstances.

okareaman7• 7 years ago

I don't know what happened there. I certainly didn't do that intentionally. I thought I just copied the title. I think I did and then the magazine revised their headline. Mods, please fix it.

kick4• 7 years ago

It's likely HN's common error fixer. You and the magazine probably did nothing wrong, don't worry.

foolfoolz• 7 years ago

he kept taking lsd trying to to recreate that specific feeling the trip can give you only to later learn you can get to that place without the drugs.

i had no idea he had a debilitating stroke. imagine being someone who’s life is defined by your good ability to articulate ideas hard to explain and communicate with anyone and then instantly turn to someone who has trouble expressing your thoughts. and doing that 20 years. man getting old fucking blows

kick4• 7 years ago

He found peace in the stroke. It wasn't entirely bad, and he'd probably laugh that you felt more strongly about it than he did. Here's an interesting interview with him on just that:

https://www.readthespirit.com/explore/the-ram-dass-interview...

lambdaba2• 7 years ago

Absolutely, there's an excellent documentary about this called Going Home https://www.netflix.com/title/80209895

briga• 7 years ago

I wonder if the chronic LSD use and the stroke were related.

lambdaba2• 7 years ago

There's absolutely no scientific basis for that, besides that I don't think he used LSD much if at all past the hippie period. Certainly not regularly (and there are people who have used LSD weekly for years with no apparent damage)

9nGQluzmnq3M• 7 years ago

LSD is used in ridiculously minute quantities, with standard doses measured in micrograms (millionths of a gram). It's astonishing enough that this can have a profound effect on the brain, but it's highly unlikely to cause physical damage to larger organs like the heart.

gxon• 7 years ago

Certainly something that should be studied. Too bad the federal government in the US effectively banned any research into LSD for decades.

brodo• 7 years ago

Strokes are _very_ common. It‘s the third most common cause for death (or something in that ballpark). A lot of the leading figures in psychedelics lived long lives. Incidentally, Alexander Shulgin also died at 88. Albert Hoffman lived to 104.

brooklyndude4• 7 years ago

No.

_y5hn• 7 years ago

There's actually a quite interesting movie about Ram Dass, about his life before and after stroke. It became a revelation that continuing living required digging deeper, and made him question much of his past, acting like the famous yogis and fooling around. When high on spirit, one may become a bit arrogant and full of oneself. He got more or less to see himself as "no more enlightened" than others, realize more of being the same as others, conscious sameness. That being a yogi is about much more than being famous, wealthy or having good health, none of that actually.

Lots of spiritual saints have had bad accidents and maladies in their life. Their power is often how to turn it to something deeper, meaningful, helping others and being inspirational - or just make a laugh about it. Ashtavakra was a total cripple (Ashtavakra means "8 knots" in the body), yet is studied and highly revered in India for his Gita.

kranner5• 7 years ago

Curious to see how a spiritual adept would react to LSD, Alpert gave Maharaj-ji a whopping dose. It had zero effect on the holy man.

This is oversimplified and maybe a bit misleading.

Ram Dass's own account[1] of giving Neem Karoli Baba the "Yogi Medicine" is more colourful and to me suggests that there was some effect and that the Baba was able to tolerate it for the first hour, after which Ram Dass was possibly not present with the Baba for further observations.

[1] https://www.ramdass.org/ram-dass-gives-maharaji-the-yogi-med...

kick4• 7 years ago

Your comment is leaving out the last part, which is crucial:

And then we waited. After some time he pulled the blanket over his face, and when he came out after a moment his eyes were rolling and his mouth was ajar and he looked totally mad. I got upset. What was happening? Had I misjudged his powers? After all, he was an old man (though how old I had no idea), and I had let him take twelve hundred micrograms. Maybe last time he had thrown them away and then he read my mind and was trying to prove to me he could do it, not realizing how strong the “medicine” really was. Guilt and anxiety poured through me. But when I looked at him again he was perfectly normal and looking at the watch.

At the end of an hour it was obvious nothing had happened. His reactions had been a total put-on. And then he asked, “Have you got anything stronger?” I didn’t. Then he said, “These medicines were used in Kullu Valley long ago. But yogis have lost that knowledge. They were used with fasting. Nobody knows now. To take them with no effect, your mind must be firmly fixed on God. Others would be afraid to take. Many saints would not take this.” And he left it at that.

kranner5• 7 years ago

I left out the whole thing, actually, but my opinion took that into account. I get the impression that Ram Dass was a bit of a Karoli Baba fanboy and certainly the drug had enough of an effect that Karoli Baba felt something, even if he didn't outwardly show it; or perhaps Ram Dass was too starry-eyed to note it as such.

xamuel• 7 years ago

To take them with no effect, your mind must be firmly fixed on God.

Reminds me of Mark 16:18 where Jesus is speaking of those who believe: "...and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not harm them..."

rapsey4• 7 years ago

To any podcast listener I highly recommend: Ram Dass Here and Now.

It along with reading the Bhagavad Gita certainly changed my life and mindset forever.

tim3335• 7 years ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9I4SVWpfdM I guess?

rapsey4• 7 years ago

yes

eric234223• 7 years ago

Bhagavad Gita also advocates for varna system which is one of the shames of hinduism.

vppillai• 7 years ago

But not based on birth. It is advocated as a social structure based on the kind of work you do.

okareaman7• 7 years ago

I'm listening to Here and Now for the first time. Amazing stuff.

blaeks• 7 years ago

touch base here: "Be here now" transformed my brainz too. afaik Ram Dass is well and alive, and will be for many years to come

starpilot• 7 years ago

"RAM" in headline should not be all caps, right?

Quipunotch104• 7 years ago

"Now the whole idea of a meditative practice is the process of very simply extricating awareness from the identification with thought & sensation." - Ram Dass

tim3335• 7 years ago

There's an earlier article discussed on HN that kind of summarises who he was

The Unified Theory Of Ram Dass https://www.gq.com/story/the-unified-theory-of-ram-dass

HN nov 18 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18558488

reggieband3• 7 years ago

From the GQ article:

... with his former life as a 29-year-old clinical psychologist on the faculty at Harvard named Dr. Richard Alpert. He'd been the pride of an esteemed Jewish family in Boston, with an impressive résumé (gigs at Stanford and Berkeley, a corner office and sterling reputation at Harvard) and all the trappings of success that came with his swinging young professorship, including a blue Mercedes-Benz, a Triumph motorcycle, a sailboat, a single-engine Cessna airplane, a live-in girlfriend in an apartment on one side of town and a live-in boyfriend on the other.

Maybe I'm out-of-touch with Harvard compensation ranges ... but is this practical given solely his salary or would he have need to supplement his income with family wealth or other income sources?

kirsebaer• 7 years ago

He had family money.

kilpikaarna• 7 years ago

This part is more or less quoted from the talk in the first episodes of his podcast At least of the airplane he then later says ”well the bank owned it”. It was something he bought because Leary insisted they go to Mexico, he was still taking flight lessons at the time.

Glosster• 7 years ago

Spirituality and philosophy are for people who can't get into actually important fields related to science, right?

nunodonato• 7 years ago

science is for people who can't get into the real important field of life, like spirituality :P

deepvibrations• 7 years ago

Ha! Science can only get you so far and there are areas where it falls on it's face, for example explaining consciousness and that is where Spirituality and philosophy need to step in.

collyw• 7 years ago

Or for those for whom science has answered as much as it can and are still looking for answers.

abdulhaq• 7 years ago

This is an important question that you must answer for yourself

rapsey4• 7 years ago

Science will not help you with:

* Dealing with your own death or death of loved ones.

* Finding meaning and purpose to life.

* Dealing with anger.

* Coping with trauma.

* Coping with adversity.

* Dealing with addiction.

* Coping with social anxiety, acceptance or isolation.

* ...

known• 7 years ago

True...

asdf21• 7 years ago

Psychology / psychiatry aren't sciences?

tomhoward• 7 years ago

Not according to physicist Freeman Dyson [1]:

Science and religion are two windows that people look through, trying to understand the big universe outside, trying to understand why we are here. The two windows give different views, but they look out at the same universe. Both views are one-sided, neither is complete. Both leave out essential features of the real world. And both are worthy of respect.

Trouble arises when either science or religion claims universal jurisdiction, when either religious or scientific dogma claims to be infallible. Religious creationists and scientific materialists are equally dogmatic and insensitive. By their arrogance they bring both science and religion into disrepute. The media exaggerate their numbers and importance. The media rarely mention the fact that the great majority of religious people belong to moderate denominations that treat science with respect, or the fact that the great majority of scientists treat religion with respect so long as religion does not claim jurisdiction over scientific questions.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeman_Dyson#Science_and_reli...

carapace4• 7 years ago

A human being is a part of a whole, called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest... a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty.

—Einstein

russellbeattie• 7 years ago

I think HN needs an obituaries section. I'm not kidding.

krn2• 7 years ago

"When you go out into the woods, and you look at trees, you see all these different trees. And some of them are bent, and some of them are straight, and some of them are evergreens, and some of them are whatever. And you look at the tree and you allow it. You see why it is the way it is. You sort of understand that it didn’t get enough light, and so it turned that way. And you don’t get all emotional about it. You just allow it. You appreciate the tree.

The minute you get near humans, you lose all that. And you are constantly saying ‘You are too this, or I’m too this.’ That judgment mind comes in. And so I practice turning people into trees. Which means appreciating them just the way they are."

– Ram Dass

petrogradphilos• 7 years ago

It’s correct to regard trees, but not people, as products of their environment. Trees don’t make choices. People do.

felixgallo• 7 years ago

Then I advise you to read what you’ve posted on an obituary thread and change.

blinkingled3• 7 years ago

People's choices also are in some way a product of their environment (heritage, parents, neighborhood and so on) and their suchness/nature, both of which they can't do much about - aren't they? Besides, judging them is hardly useful - they're what they are and society has already got the consequences part covered so what's judgment adding here?

shamnreturns22• 7 years ago

Maybe the point is that most people are also products of their environment (culture, family, etc).

ghevshoo• 7 years ago

An exercise I learned from Sam Harris that finally started to convince me that free will is an illusion goes as follows:

1. Choose a movie title

2. Now do it again with your eyes closed and try to figure out precisely how you chose the movie title.

3. Keep doing it.

After a while you realize that stuff just “appears” to us. The same holds true for more than just movie titles. How exactly that process works, or why it appears like as if we have free will is an interesting subject.

carapace4• 7 years ago

I've come to believe that humans are only really responsible for their behaviour when present, and then their behaviour is compassionate and kind. Most people, most of the time, are more-or-less running on automatic, like meat-robots.

In other words, if they are asleep they're blameless and if they are awake they're harmless.

I'm not claiming it's true, I'm just saying that it's helped me to be more forgiving and easy-going.

dakom• 7 years ago

This comment should not be downvoted. We have yet to explain all the inner workings of the brain nor the exact mechanism that drives human behavior. Some future discovery will, perhaps, make our current understanding look downright stupid and primeval in retrospect.

Let's state the obvious: humans _choose_ to modify themselves and their surroundings in a way trees do not, and it offers us the ability to move away from the light if we want. Failure to recognize this apparent difference stunts any drive to investigate further and it's insulting to both humans and trees.

On a level of empathy, I get it. We need compassion for eachother and predicaments that are often not of our choosing. Fine. Let's at least say that in some ways people are like trees and in other ways they are not. Ultimately that's not a very deep insight and rings very much like the kind of thing teenagers say while stoned.

However - I mean no disrespect to Richard or Ram or however he wanted to be called. The man did incredible work toward helping his fellow humans and for this reason alone he deserves great respect. I'm sad for his loss and I hope I can do even a portion of the good he did during his life.

eric_cc3• 7 years ago

Trees don’t make choices. People do.

There are philosophies that believe otherwise.

mmcgaha• 7 years ago

I get the concept of appreciating people for what they are, but I don't know what to do with this knowledge. Maybe I can apply it to an eccentric neighbor, but how would I apply it to an unproductive employee, lying partner, or self-destructive friend.

Thinking more about this, the forest is like a busy sidewalk full of people, but the people in our lives are more like the beautiful tree in the back yard that we take care of.

nerdponx• 7 years ago

If a tree is harmful (poison?) or dangerous (about to fall and crush you?) you either cut it down or stay away from it and warn others to stay away from it.

cainxinth• 7 years ago

I think that quote is describing the fundamental attribution error: "the tendency for people to under-emphasize situational explanations for an individual's observed behavior while over-emphasizing dispositional and personality-based explanations."

When you see someone cut you off in traffic, you might instantly assume they are just a born jerk that doesn't care about others, but maybe they are rushing to the hospital.

crazygringo• 7 years ago

In practice, you deal with the unproductive employee, lying partner, etc. the same way you always have. You still need to protect your own interests and not let people take advantage of you.

But it means you don't let it affect you emotionally in the same way. While most people have a kind of internal monologue that goes "why are these people so bad, why is the world wronging me, I didn't do anything to deserve this, why does life suck so bad sometimes, it's all these people's fault" you instead learn to just accept that the world has these people and not to waste emotional angst on them. You deal with them as necessary and then move on internally without anger, hatred, etc.

adamsea• 7 years ago

Just 'cause you appreciate a tree doesn't mean you're going to stand by it if it's about to fall on you.

everdev• 7 years ago

Many spiritual gurus don't get married, have kids, run companies or live in violent areas. These are some of the most challenging (and potentially rewarding) social structures we have. They test you in deeper, more unexpected ways.

While "appreciating what is" is a great general rule, like any world-view it can be limiting.

I can imagine it's much easier to follow these concepts when you're safely surrounded by admirers. It's probably much harder to walk into a hostile / life-threatening situation and "appreciate what is".

jonnycomputer• 7 years ago

Have you ever tended a garden? practical garden experience makes the answer pretty clear. You don't get angry at the rose bush for not having the roses you desired. You fix the problem, or get rid of the rose bush, or just let it be.

cambalache• 7 years ago

The same way you dont hang a hammock in a tree with a feeble trunk or dont sleep below a tree infested with poisonous insects.

gbuk2013• 7 years ago

You see them for what they are, without emotions and judgement and you do what is right.

In your mind, sincerely wish them well. Even if you can do nothing else for them it's OK - you are already doing good in the world.

Most people, when they look at life see it through a haze of memories of the past and worries of the future. To be able to see things as they are is the aim of spiritual practice.

frogpelt• 7 years ago

That's neat. But trees don't cut you off in traffic or steal your packages off your porch or murder your aunt or cuss you out or talk too much or tell lies, etc. etc. etc.

They also don't make you soup, buy a birthday card, bring you flowers, hold the door for you, give you a hug, say I love you.

So, people aren't trees.

zzzeek3• 7 years ago

trees will fall on you and kill you. so just like people, trees will hurt you.

trees will recycle carbon into oxygen, provide cover from the sun and rain, and strengthen the soil. so just like people, trees will help you.

habitue4• 7 years ago

I like this quote, but it's good to remember why judgement exists. Judgement exists because it puts pressure on people to conform. You disapprove of their actions, and you let them know either explicitly, or implicitly through your behavior towards them. We all exert pressure on each other to conform to expectations. In an environment with no judgement, nobody conforms, everybody does what they want.

I'm saying something pretty banal really, everybody knows this. Ram Dass's quote here is emphasizing that you can be overly judgemental. You can be stuck in an endless rumination cycle where you stew over the failings of people around you. If you're in this mode of thinking, it's good to take a step back and think of humans like trees. But similarly, if you're constantly being taken advantage of because nobody thinks you care strongly about anything, well, maybe consider becoming more judgemental

zzzeek3• 7 years ago

But similarly, if you're constantly being taken advantage of because nobody thinks you care strongly about anything, well, maybe consider becoming more judgemental

Being judgmental will do absolutely nothing to stop those people from taking advantage of you. only if you change your behavior can you change the situation. Looking at your situation fully and completely without fear and reactivity, that will save you. Judging all those people who are "doing this" to you, will do nothing but make you miserable. It is of course our nature to be judgmental but the work of Ramm Dass was to separate out those judgements to arrive at a state where you are truly not judging people. Has nothing to do with seeing what it is they do. an earthquake could level your town, and you see exactly what it is this earthquake did, and it was horrible. but you don't "judge" the earthquake, it just is. that's ultimately the state of all people too.

ydb• 7 years ago

In an environment with no judgement, nobody conforms, everybody does what they want.

And the problem with that is, when nobody conforms, no profit can be made. A large part of Silicon Valley is predicated on people conforming (Facebook/Instagram, Twitter,WeWork, Snapchat, Amazon, Microsoft).

Judgment has been carefully bred in us, otherwise neoliberal capitalism would be unable to function and so the fat cats wouldn't be able to get their salami.

ghostbrainalpha• 7 years ago

Ram Dass just made me feel really bad about my hobby of Tree Shaping.

https://images.app.goo.gl/J5wzRAKuMjjZ8Lsv5

eric_cc3• 7 years ago

Tree Shaping.

Tree mutilation

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fnord77• 7 years ago

LSD-75

lsd-25

...

Curious to see how a spiritual adept would react to LSD, Alpert gave Maharaj-ji a whopping dose. It had zero effect on the holy man.

This is so unlikely. Either the drug was no good, or Maharaj-ji was on something that negates the effects of LSD (anti-depressants, benzos, barbiturates, etc.)

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quickthrowman2• 7 years ago

Absolutely, either he wasn’t given LSD or the dude was on a tremendous amount of benzos. I read elsewhere that the dose was 1200 mcg, which is a very strong dose. Most recreational tabs are 75-250 mcg

LSD having no effect on Maharaj-Ji is about as likely as Prince Andrew not being able to sweat because of a scare during the Falkland War.

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zaph0d• 7 years ago

Maharajji's (Neem Karoli Baba) only possession was a blanket and he was living in a remote village in North India in the 60's. There is little chance that he had access to the drugs you mentioned.

And the LSD that was carried by Ram Dass was made by Sandoz, arguably the purest LSD that you could ever get.

May be reading Ram Dass' account of the event in _Be Here Now_ will provide some much needed context.

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quickthrowman2• 7 years ago

An anecdote being published in a book doesn’t make it true.

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zupreme2• 7 years ago

Theory: It had no effect because his sadhana already crossed the zone of consciousness LSD moves one to.

In advanced meditation alot of “effort” is spent on ignoring ephemeral phenomena including the kinds of visual and auditory phenomena LSD induces. An expert meditator at his level would likely be able to move freely into the “LSD Frequency” and out again with no drugs required.

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armitron2• 7 years ago

I call bullshit on that. Besides the rampant charlatanism that infects the "expert" meditator community, my own multi-decade experience with meditation tells me that anyone who compares it to LSD or other strong psychedelics doesn't know what he's talking about.

You could be meditating for 10 years and not come anywhere near close to what 1 hit of LSD unveils about the mind and "you".

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mistrial92• 7 years ago

brains are a lot more complex than ordinary daily mind lets on.. corollary, things happen that we didnt know could happen

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andykx• 7 years ago

I think it had an effect, but it is possible that, through meditation, he had already achieved similar states of mind and become adept at controlling/navigating them.

This is totally anecdotal and based only on experiences I've had though. It's hard to make blanket statements about the nature of psychedelics.

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shamnreturns22• 7 years ago

It makes sense if we think about the adult mind as a rigid psychologic construct that temporarily loses rigidity when taking a psychodelic; so it doesn't has any effect if the mind has no rigid psy-construct to begin with.

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dahart• 7 years ago

Reading that sentence, “it had zero effect”, since there’s no context, no details, no elaboration at all, I wondered to myself if what Ram meant was that it had no lasting effect, no spiritual effect on Maharaj-ji, that it didn’t change his mind or world view at all. Perhaps Mahara-ji was tripping just like anyone, but afterward didn’t care or see it as any sort of enlightenment, and saw it the same way any of us would view getting drunk. That would have been a pretty serious blow for Ram; his own belief at the time was that LSD changed his life and presumably his hope in sharing it was it would change others. Maybe when it didn’t change Maharaj-ji’s life, Ram viewed it as having had zero effect.

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itomato• 7 years ago

"...I added yet another, making the total dosage nine hundred micrograms–certainly not a dose for beginners. Then he threw all the pills into his mouth. My reaction was one of shock mixed with fascination of a social scientist eager to see what would happen.

He allowed me to stay for an hour– and nothing happened. Nothing whatsoever.

He just laughed at me."

Did the guru pull a fast one?

An hour is not sufficient time for a peak.

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monktastic1• 7 years ago

It also depends on what "zero effects" means, exactly.

Thanks to a lot of meditation myself, I generally remain almost perfectly lucid on very large doses (10g+) of psilocybe cubensis. But boy, stuff is sure still happening. It's closely related to this quote above:

"Now the whole idea of a meditative practice is the process of very simply extricating awareness from the identification with thought & sensation." - Ram Dass

The more one practices this, the less one "loses oneself" in the ever-changing swirl of phenomena passing through the experiential field.

I should also add that this "witnessing" phase is not the end of the story, either. I'm not necessarily a big fan of Ken Wilber, but I like how he describes it here:

"This is actually the profound discovery of… the pure divine Self, the formless Witness, causal nothingness, the vast Emptiness in which the entire world arises, stays a bit, and passes. And you are That. You are not the body, not the ego, not nature, not thoughts, not this, not that – you are a vast Emptiness, Freedom, Release, and Liberation.

With this discovery… you are halfway home. You have disidentified from any and all finite objects; you rest as infinite Consciousness. You are free, open, empty, clear, radiant, released, liberated, exalted, drenched in a blissful emptiness that exists prior to space, prior to time, prior to tears and terror, prior to pain and mortality and suffering and death. You have found the great Unborn, the vast Abyss, the unqualifiable Ground of all that is, and all that was, and all that ever shall be.

But why is that only halfway home? Because as you rest in the infinite ease of consciousness, spontaneously aware of all that is arising, there will soon enough come the great catastrophe of Freedom and Fullness: the Witness itself will disappear entirely, and instead of witnessing the sky, you are the sky; instead of touching the earth, you are the earth; instead of hearing the thunder, you are the thunder. You and the entire Kosmos become One Taste – you can drink the Pacific Ocean in a single gulp, hold Mt. Everest in the palm of your hand; supernovas swirl in your heart and the solar system replaces your head…"

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samatman2• 7 years ago

Can’t find the reference, but according to a contemporary, Maharaj-ji palmed the LSD.

Then later, mixed it with sacred ash, and gave it as prasad to his devotees. Who were duly impressed with his shakti!

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pmoriarty2• 7 years ago

Ram Das himself admitted that he later found out that Maharaj-ji didn't actually take the LSD, but faked taking it.

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refset• 7 years ago

Richard was a beautiful soul who recognised, embraced and embodied the primacy of love. His life was his message.

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ArtWomb• 7 years ago

Prediction: resurgent Hindutva and global projection of Indian economic and cultural influence will result in a global awakening to the wisdom contained in ancient Vedic traditions. We might even see Sanskrit learning centers outside language departments like Oxford and Chicago.

I think the best place to start is probably with the Ramayana. And the age old question troubling sages for ages: Why does Ram banish Sita?

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Ramayana

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volume• 7 years ago

“It’s entirely possible, as far as I’m concerned, psychedelics are another yoga” Ram Dass in “The Only Dance There Is” page 47. Published 1970

November 26, 2019 The FDA is fast-tracking a second psilocybin drug to treat depression https://www.popsci.com/story/health/psilocybin-magic-mushroo...

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krn2• 7 years ago

Richard Alpert (before becoming Ram Dass) on LSD experience in the interview from the 1960s:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7P3TrGCMHNU

And Timothy Leary in the interview from 1966:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXBg3BVDVHM

What seems extremely impressive now, is how clear their thinking was, and how confident they felt in the importance of what they have to share.

And it wasn't something one could have just found in the books.

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kilroy_jones5• 7 years ago

I never understood the fascination with these gurus. They repackage old ideas and dress them up a bit before using them to lure in weak-willed and gullible devotees. Most, and Ram Dass was no exception, were incredibly flawed people, albeit intelligent and charismatic, with clear psychogical issues.

Dass bounced around between gurus that exploited women and men before returning to the US to do much the same. That, the drugs, and the lies over the years just makes whatever he says unpalatable.

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okareaman7• 7 years ago

"They repackage old ideas" Old in the East, new to the West. I'm sure Ram Dass would agree that he was a flawed person, except possibly the allegation that he lied. What kind of lies are you talking about? If you want to call students "gullible devotees" ok. You say "exploited women and men" to mean he had sex? You think he should have been celibate? You're looking at the finger, not at what the finger is pointing to.

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kilroy_jones5• 7 years ago

Let's say you get sick. So you get in your car and drive to what Google maps says is the nearest hospital. You arrive, and people dressed as nurses and doctors are bustling about. They check you in, perform some tests, give you some medicine, and you pay before you leave. The medicine sort of works you think, and with time you get better.

A week later you find out that the hospital was actually run by people that had little formal training as doctors. Some took a few classes on Coursera or first aid training, but none really devoted themselves to the profession beyond a cursory level. But they seemed so professional you think, but then again without medical knowledge how would you know? On top of that you find they've been using their position to influence medical opinions behind the hospital, gain fame, and earn large sums of money from desperate people looking to be healed. Sure, they inadvertently cure some people, and others just got better due to time.

To me this is like Ram Dass and so many other gurus. Their lies are layered under the façade they present and under the ideas they explain, most often poorly and without context. They may inadvertently help people, but just as much they are preying on those desperate for answers and help. They are unqualified scam artists who know just enough to be dangerous. The lie is embodied in who they purport to be and in the help they try to provide.

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plinkplonk• 7 years ago

this is unlikely to be a popular opinion here :-)

but as someone who lives in a culture (India) overrun by "gurus" of all shapes and forms, spouting Roscharchian mumbo jumbo packaged as "ancient wisdom", I largely agree with and sympathize with your viewpoint.

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vmurthy• 7 years ago

As an Indian who isn't in India at the moment, I empathise with you. I just googled for "Guru arrested" [0] and there seems to be a ton of results for the search term. It is really unfortunate that a lot of people are abusing their position as "Gurus" to cater to their base needs.

[0] https://www.google.com/search?q=guru+arrested&oq=guru+arrest...

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neonate• 7 years ago

Dass bounced around between gurus that exploited women and men before returning to the US to do much the same.

The book "Saints and Psychopaths" talks about a case where Ram Dass was following an explotative guru in the US in the late 70s. I thought it was interesting that he was still doing that then, and also that the story isn't so well known.

But what do you mean by "the lies over the years"? He never struck me as a liar.

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kilroy_jones5• 7 years ago

Perhaps lies is not the best word in this case. Is there a word in English for someone that gives advice knowing that they themselves are not qualified to do so? Like if I were to confidently give you medical advice despite not being a doctor. Putting on a façade?

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eric_cc3• 7 years ago

repackage old ideas and dress them up a bit

Philosophies & religions (hell, ideas in general) have always been iterative in this way. They all have a genealogy that goes back in time further than is commonly assumed.

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corbett3000• 7 years ago

I’m a fan of Ram Dass - but not “fascinated”. To me he was like a spiritual comedian sharing the absurdity of this life. I find it’s helpful to get perspectives from far out people - perhaps so I don’t have to venture so far out myself. By no means does he get a pass for any transgressions.

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swayvil3• 7 years ago

Talk is cheap. Talk that makes broad, vague accusations is cheap. Talk that makes accusations of the dead is cheap. Talk that makes accusations without backing them up with evidence is cheap.

You just slung a boatload of cheap mud.

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dang• 7 years ago

Ok, but please don't respond to one indignant comment with another. We're trying to avoid that here, and a thread about Ram Dass is a great place to work on it.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

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kilroy_jones5• 7 years ago

What has Ram Dass taught that was anything more than feel good self-help level material put into a palatable form fit for those wanting to hear soothing words?

Sure, he was intelligent, had a PhD, and was a likeable guy. He also spent much of his early years doing drugs (LSD experiments) and bouncing around ashrams in India with less than reputable gurus.

The guy was quoted as saying Jerry Garcia was a Bodhisattva, if that says anything about his state of mind.

He was, like most gurus, exceedingly arrogant at times. 'It is useful here to remember that your guru, even though you may not have met him in his manifest form knows everything about you, everything.' Who says stuff like that?

Dass was no more put together than anyone else, especially considering how he boucned around with ideas, even becoming a devout evangelical Christian at one point. The guy was put on a pedestal by people and he made the best of it.

There is tons of stuff that weighs against the guy, but I'm on mobile and out and don't remember much. I don't consider him to be wholly malicious in his actions like many purported 'gurus,' but he is still a scam artist for letting others follow him while reaping the benefits.

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nishantvyas4• 7 years ago

Let's drill down,

Why go to gurus to listen to ideas or ideology, that you can read in books and practice at your home?

Why go to college when you can learn anything from books or by working on it (as profession or hobby)?

Why go to tax planner when you can file taxes on your own?

In World, where information is asymmetric, (and we lack time to acquire information or expertise) we need help. They are our references/guides, with assumption and hope of good faith (No fiduciary agreement)

This is classic Principal Agent Problem.

Does Principal has flaws? Yes. Do they always work in good faith? No.

Simply put, What to do with information/guidance one receive is their prerogative and life/lifestyle of these people is theirs.

Should we appreciate ideas more than the people behind it? Yes. Will we ever do it? No.

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reggieband3• 7 years ago

I know you want to "drill down" but your choice of comparisons is not apt.

Why do people go to Tarot card readers? It is almost certainly possible to study as much about Western esotericism and ritualistic practices as it is to study about ancient Indian religions. You have the same asymmetry of knowledge (Tarot card reader took the time to acquire expertise which you don't have time to). You have the same person/idea division (maybe your Tarot card reader is a drunkard and a philanderer but he can sure read those cards).

I think we have some weird prejudice when it comes to Indian spirituality. For some reason we bend over backwards to give it the benefit of the doubt that we deny to other traditions. You want to compare Indian Gurus to college professors and tax planners. The truth is they are closer to psychics and spirit mediums.

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stjohnswarts6• 7 years ago

You're not really drilling down. All these pseudo-spiritual "gurus" lay the entire basis of their thinking out using mystical thinking to explain things rather than anything intellectual. I'd rather follow a random number generator with where to go next with my life experiences than these types of frauds.

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rev0lutions• 7 years ago

If I had a house in Maui along with all the academic and financial success he's had (in no small part as a consequence of being born into money), I too would love everyone and consider all of my actions "an offering to God"

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diggum• 7 years ago

The messengers are usually flawed, but the message is good. Same with so many other things which can positively enhance our perspective: comedy, art, music. The messengers are one of us, and while they’ve often glimpsed a possibility most of us haven’t seen, they’re still bound by the same limitations of humanity the rest of us experience. Their message can be guideposts toward a better existence, even if their examples fall short. Finger pointing at the moon, and all that.

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carlagmail2• 7 years ago

Hmmm, to me, it’s not about the person at all. It’s about their message & whether it’s helpful for my own mind.

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lprubin• 7 years ago

Through that article I looked into an organization Ram Dass was involved in called Social Venture Network which seems to have rebranded as Social Venture Circle.

The article seems to mistakenly say Ram Dass founded it (he's not mentioned in their wikipedia article at all) and a post on his blog seems to just say he "started to hang out with them" but it still seems like an interesting organization. Does anybody have any experience or thoughts on it or their initiatives?

I believe this is the current website: https://www.svcimpact.org/

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imroot• 7 years ago

I did some work for him about 15 years ago -- helping him set up an ecommerce store with oscommerce. Really really bright guy, amazing staff that shared his values, and a quaint little office space where they'd send the books and other things out.

Really pleasant guy.

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swayvil3• 7 years ago

A good man. He will be missed.

I recommend his "Be Here Now". Such a fine book.

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carlagmail2• 7 years ago

This was posted on Twitter:

“I encourage you to make peace with death, to see it as the culminating adventure of this adventure called life.

It is not an error.

It is not a failure.

It is taking off a tight shoe which you have worn well.”

- @BabaRamDass

️️️️️️️

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8bitsrule• 7 years ago

Of all the bogus teachers of the 60-70s, Ram Dass was the real thing. He overcame a lot, thanks to the example of Neem Karoli Baba. Be Here Now was consonant with and a testimony to The Perennial Tradition.

We live in times where that tradition - except where it's still living amongst people close to the Earth - is completely blanketed by bogus substitutes and diversions. Too bad, because we could sure use a macrodose.

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brooklyndude4• 7 years ago

No Apple right?

Be Here Now got Steve to India for a year. A year in India is a long time.

And back he came, and so came Macintosh.

There is a connection. Think different. India can do that to you. Along with blowing your mind.

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brooklyndude4• 7 years ago

It's fascinating to me, how this demographics on HN is really generally clueless (except with a few exceptions), have NO CLUE to what happened in the 60's clueless. I guess it's just a generational thing.

That was probably one of the most incredible mind fuck earthquakes to blow up our society and rebuild it.

But I guess that's history. And each generation has it's own. Today we have Justin Bieber. Then we had Hendrix.

Times sure have changed. :-)

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jjaredsimpson• 7 years ago

9/11 and the financial crisis seemed pretty earthquake as well.

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indy1952• 7 years ago

What an amazing person. He has somewhat been my guide and mentor although I have never met him personally. He will always be in my heart. Hope he achieves whatever he hoped for in his afterlife.

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Ram Dass has died

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