NordVPN sued by Torguard for blackmail [pdf]

https://torguard.net/downloads/docs/Dkt.%206%20Amended%20Complaint.pdf

by rasengan • 7 years ago

168 146 7 years ago

liamkinne• 7 years ago

With these VPN services having become a race to the bottom, it's not all that unsurprising that stuff like this happens.

neilv• 7 years ago

I think the race to the bottom already has many providers in fistfights at the finish line.

For example, when I tried Kodi (as a non-piracy living room media box starting point) a couple years ago, one of the reasons I gave up on it was that it seemed almost every Web search for technical questions would be filled with hits for VPN affiliate pitches. I also found forums, such as on reddit, filled with shilling, drama, and intrigue about VPNs, including some prominent ones. Then there was the related scandal of Facebook targeting children with a "VPN" surveillance channel, and there's really no assurance that many VPN providers aren't doing a similar thing.

I suspect there are some legitimate VPNs, but I decided I actually trust free Tor more than any random VPN, for some casual degree of protection against snooping open WiFi and ISP.

billpg• 7 years ago

I'm getting a TLS error from this link. Is it for everyone or just me?

rasengan4• 7 years ago

It’s working fine for me.

bithavoc• 7 years ago

It's working fine on my end.

thebouv• 7 years ago

I get that same issue.

computerfriend• 7 years ago

Can you explain what exactly the issue is? Where is the certificate chain breaking?

wongarsu3• 7 years ago

it works for me (Firefox, Windows 10)

canadacorner• 7 years ago

are you using opendns?

maeln2• 7 years ago

Are you behind a proxy that does certificate interception ?

CaliforniaKarl• 7 years ago

The site's certificate chains up to the DigiCert High Assurance EV Root CA. See https://www.ssllabs.com/ssltest/analyze.html?d=torguard.net&...

If you are having an issue, it would be worth stating:

• Do you have the above-mentioned CA in your trust store?

• What OS/browser are you using?

• Are you using any middle service, be it local (like virus scanning) or network-level (like a middlebox/proxy)?

dickeytk• 7 years ago

Are you using NordVPN? /s

wongarsu3• 7 years ago

Collective 7 is a Canadian hosting company [...] now owned or controlled by NordVPN. [...]
NordVPN threatened to release TorGuard’s confidential and trade secret information that was obtained by NordVPN from Collective 7— who, in turn, obtained this information during the time TorGuard utilized Collective 7 as a service provider. NordVPN threatened to release this information unless TorGuard forced or coerced a third party into silence, as this third party was publishing legitimate criticisms of issues associated with NordVPN’s business practices.

If true this reflects very poorly on NordVPN. How much criticism did they manage to suppress successfully until someone sued for blackmail?

rasengan4• 7 years ago

NordVPN has been known to suppress a lot of information about themselves - even the country in which they operate.

Given C7 is involved as well I’m very confident it’s true.

ganoushoreilly3• 7 years ago

And they are closely aligned with other vpn providers that all leveraged micfo (as is stated in this complaint).

robertthebruce2• 7 years ago

If true this reflects very poorly on NordVPN. How much criticism did they manage to suppress successfully until someone sued for blackmail?

NordVPN has sent legal threats to many Youtubers and bloggers anytime they don't like what's written.

NordVPN and ProtonVPN are enemies of free speech and open internet.

cyberpunk3• 7 years ago

Had a quick skim; it seems at a glance like someone from TorGuard badmouthed NordVPN on a youtube comment (sigh), so NordVPN apparently in response threatened to disclose "trade secret information obtained by NordVPN regarding TorGuard’s systems" it obtained via a hosting provider TorGuard used which is owned by the NordVPN people. This apparently involved some pretty sketchy stuff like sending people to the house of a TG employee to intimidate them.

Whoops.

What kind of 'trade secret information' could a vpn provider be blackmailed with though? What kind of information could you gleam as the owner of a 'service provider' for such a use? I'm suffering from an apparent lack of imagination here.

Either way, this looks pretty messy and as a NordVPN user, I'm surprised how amateurish this all seems.

cyberpunk3• 7 years ago

Reading the parent pdf vs Nord's response [0] I'm slightly more inclined to believe Nords version of events here...

0: https://nordvpn.com/blog/torguard-lawsuit/

rasengan4• 7 years ago

NordVPN is good at spinning stories, but quite frankly they have been caught in too many lies to ever trust again [1].

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18609655

chrismeller• 7 years ago

Their response is certainly better written and does have something about the ring of truth to it.

Even taking into account the insanity of legalese that lawsuit was... wordy, at best. Poorly organized and repetitive would also apply.

penagwin11• 7 years ago

I'm not sure, their response could be fabricated too. I'm interested in if Torguard has any evidence of them physically approaching their employee.

Within an hour of this in-person and unannounced visit, the same TorGuard contractor received unsolicited correspondence from an employee at NordVPN. This correspondence stated that NordVPN had received certain of TorGuard’s confidential and trade secret information and requested to set up an instant message chat to discuss this with TorGuard.

Also, according to both parties they communicated with each other with evidence. So all either party has to do to claim their innocence is submit the emails/communications they claimed to have.

---

The DDOS part I'm very weary about. What evidence does torguard have that NordVPN was the one carrying out the DDOS attacks? I'll admit I haven't thoroughly examined the entire document, but they don't really seem to state how they know NordVPN was behind the attacks, they just list the dates they were attacked. Given the nature of DDOS attacks, they could be from anyone.

ghostwalking3• 7 years ago

The NordVPN blog post leaves me with many questions.

1) Someone supposedly "gave" them the URL. They do not state how they found it, or how it was related to TorGuard. So who gave it to them? The Collective 7 hosting company? It appears Collective 7 was selling "Residential Solutions for VPN Providers":

http://web.archive.org/web/20171215024207/http://collectives...

2) Did they ask TorGuard to censor Youtuber "Tom spark reviews"? It seems he is critical of them: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXJWKuGh0qedrYviGEJmlWw

Tom Spark was also doxxed by the ProtonMail Reddit rep for posting videos they did not like: https://old.reddit.com/r/ProtonVPN/comments/96m5vc/is_it_tru...

Found the link here: https://medium.com/@gaetanosabin/did-nordvpn-and-protonmail-...

So it doesn't surprise me that NordVPN (Proton) wants this Youtube Streamer's videos and blog taken down.

Shouldn't NordVPN and Proton uphold user privacy and fight against internet censorship? They are doing the exact opposite here and that is very troubling.

zelon88• 7 years ago

But how did NordVPN find a vulnerability in their trash-talking competition in the first place? What were they poking at and whey were they poking it?

dontbenebby4• 7 years ago

I always was a little sketched out by Torguard... much like how Wikileaks piggybacked on Wikipedia, the fact they put "Tor" in their name despite not being affiliated with Tor squicked me out a bit.

Lowkeyloki• 7 years ago

Nobody comes off looking particularly good here. If these corporations are going to act like grade schoolers calling each other names on the playground, I'm inclined to not use either of them.

I used NordVPN for about a year a couple of years ago and I found their quality of service unsatisfactory. I've been using ProtonVPN for about a year now and I've been very satisfied. But that's just my personal experience and YMMV.

penagwin11• 7 years ago

On or about May 17, 2019 an unknown individual appeared unannounced at the personal residence of a TorGuard contractor, asking to speak with him about his relationship with TorGuard and the VPN industry

This whole thing sounds sketchy AF for NordVPN. While not technically illegal, just approaching a competitor's employee unsolicited at their home (!?) has red flags all over the place.

vectorEQ• 7 years ago

mind you telling about some privacy company that they have 'trade secrets' which should be exposed is a low blow under the belt... if you have some critical information for its users privacy, then share it... (being privacy advocates and a VPN service themselves.. it would be responsible.) with that in mind, it just sounds like someone with bad temper with too much responsibilities as usually these things turn out to be...

jacquesm• 7 years ago

What kind of 'trade secret information' could a vpn provider be blackmailed with though?

That's easy. A VPN provider has access to all kinds of juicy information, such as who their customers are and what they are up to online.

They may have been compromised already, they may sell user data. There are all kinds of things that could be going on that would definitely be stuff they could be blackmailed with.

Whether any of that is the case remains to be seen.

Liquix• 7 years ago

They have definitely been compromised. You can buy lifetime accounts on the darknet for a dime a dozen with suspiciously not-real-person email addresses and passwords. Other VPN services and accounts for sale are much more expensive and you can usually tell at a glance that the credentials were stolen from a real user.

Edit: Perhaps the unimpeded sale of these "hacked" accounts leads indirectly/directly back to someone inside NordVPN? A dirty "trade secret" they wouldn't want revealed..? Seems farfetched but they have not proven themselves trustworthy in the past.

xfitm3• 7 years ago

It’s not uncommon for ISPs to voluntarily tap and sell traffic data to government agencies - perhaps this is another case of that.

ghostwalking3• 7 years ago

What kind of 'trade secret information' could a vpn provider be blackmailed with though?

According to TorGuard's blog post they stole information from an install script that was allegedly used at C7 hosting:

https://torguard.net/blog/when-bug-bounties-border-on-blackm...

An installer script could easily give an attacker insight into internal TorGuard IP addresses that would otherwise be hidden.

My guess is these internal IP addresses from whatever was stolen were targeted with DDOS.

SturmUndDrang• 7 years ago

What kind of information could you gleam as the owner of a 'service provider' for such a use?

They could find internal targets for DDOS to disrupt the competing VPN service so users get kicked off or can't login. If you can't use what you paid for most would ask to cancel.

Ddos attacks like this occur in any competitive space, but what bothers me here is the hosting company Collective seven appears to have betrayed a client's trust for competitive gain.

With such dishonest practices by hosting providers these days it makes me wonder what is really going on.

matchcases• 7 years ago

How come everyone seems to ignore a fact where torguards server config file was floating around on the internet? I just can't wrap my head about that. Is this lawsuit really an attempt to intimidate nord, so they don't disclose this vulnerability publicly? Wouldn't surprise me if so.

Tomspark12• 7 years ago

It's not a YouTube comment. It's my entire channel. They want me to remove NordVPN videos like this one: https://youtu.be/xxwvAjmNec8

cyberpunk3• 7 years ago

The plot thickens..

I mean... How are you involved? Why would NordVPN allegedly blackmail TorGuard to get you to stop posting negative things? What leverage does TorGuard have over you?

mqbqi• 7 years ago

What exactly is the "confidential and trade secret information" about?

capitol_• 7 years ago

I guess thats a secret.

Aromasin3• 7 years ago

Seems that there were some massive security vulnerabilities that NordVPN found. [1] I'm very interested in seeing how this court case works out, as at this point I don't know who to believe.

[1] https://nordvpn.com/blog/torguard-lawsuit/

maze-le• 7 years ago

https://nordvpn.com/blog/torguard-lawsuit/

Apparently its a torguard-vulnerability. To tag a vulnerability as 'trade secret', and the fact that the disclosure process involved threats (allegedly) is a very bad reflection on both of them. Why should I trust either of them to handle security vulnerabilities responsibly in the future?

ghostwalking3• 7 years ago

"confidential and trade secret information" appears to reference a stolen install script:

https://torguard.net/blog/when-bug-bounties-border-on-blackm...

dangerface• 7 years ago

NordVPN response

https://nordvpn.com/blog/torguard-lawsuit/

maeln2• 7 years ago

Well, it make it quite clear what 'trade secret' TorGuard was blackmailed about then.

el_cujo• 7 years ago

"It all started when we received information that led us to finding a TorGuard server configuration file lying in the open on the internet... We hoped that after providing this vital assistance towards securing TorGuard’s infrastructure, they would also cease with their illegal defamation campaign."

So nord is shitty for digging up dirt on torguard because they were mean to them online and torguard is shitty for having these vulnerabilities in the first place. Are there any vpn services run by a company that is neither slimy nor incompetent?

penagwin11• 7 years ago

To be fair this kind of vulnerability is kinda common. All it takes is some AWS bucket to be left public. Surely you've seen it on HN for years? MongoDB for company X found with no password, government AWS bucket left public, etc.

That said it would be a feasible yet simple story to fabricate. The details aren't that important, just saying "we found a file with ip addresses that had services open with no password" is plausible but also not that specific.

Seems like all they need to do is publish their communication now that the vulnerability has been fixed?

nickik• 7 years ago

Try mullvad.net.

A bunch of hackers in Sweden. You can pay without exposing any information about yourself and they support wireguard (even help pay for and doing their own development on it).

I meet some of them personally on hacker conferences as well and they knew what they were talking about.

kadoban• 7 years ago

NordVPN is by far the shittiest VPN service I have ever used. They billed me twice, two months in a row, and getting them to fix it was like pulling teeth. This is not to mention the hard time I had actually using the service, between random inability to connect and outages.

They have ISP-level arrogance, without the lock-in. I have no idea how they're still in business.

So I'd be very inclined towards believing this story.

wongarsu3• 7 years ago

I have no idea how they're still in business.

I imagine it's good marketing. They sponsor a lot of Youtube videos.

ivl• 7 years ago

Pretty much every VPN service does. Every tech youtuber has one VPN service advertising with them. Along with cutting prices for viewers who use those links. I have to think it's a fairly solid sales model. The viewers would also line up with their best selling demographics.

vinnymac• 7 years ago

Interesting, I have had the exact opposite experience personally. I have used the customer service in the past to fix a problem I caused (payment related), and they were prompt and helpful. Not only that but I get the best speeds (300 Mbps) from them over any other VPN I have used, and my connection is rock solid.

This story doesn't make me happy with NordVPN or TordGuard as a service however.

interfixus• 7 years ago

No idea what's up and down in the actual case, but I can, anecdotally, counter your experience with a wholly positive one from the other side of the fence:

I have a TorGuard account, and I use the VPN an awful lot - it's the default connection on the machine I'm currently writing on. Been using for a couple of years, and never once have I seen trouble or even inconvenience, save the obstacles a few sites choose to set up based an ip address. Nor with billing. They mail me an invoice. I pay. Stuff just works.

Aromasin3• 7 years ago

To provide a different perspective from that of kadoban, NordVPN is by far the best VPN I've used, and I've tried most of them (got to make use of those free trials). I had one issue with billing which was cleared up the same day, can't think of a time I've had a noticeable outage, and the UI is one of the best ones I've used. No, I don't work for them...

Reading NordVPN's side of the story, I wouldn't be inclined to believe either story until the truth has been pulled apart in court. [1]

[1] https://nordvpn.com/blog/torguard-lawsuit/

jimbokun• 7 years ago

Can anyone recommend another VPN provider, than Nord or Torguard? Main use case is for using public WiFi when travelling.

rocky1138• 7 years ago

Private Internet Access. Besides providing great service, they sponsor a lot of free and open source software and services, like Freenode IRC.

xoa• 7 years ago

Main use case is for using public WiFi when travelling

Your own VPN is the correct answer. If you have a fast enough symmetric link at home then just run a small machine there (or your router/sec appliance may support it) or else get a ~$5 VPS from OVH/DigitalOcean/Scaleway/Amazon/Google/MS or whomever you like and run WireGuard on it. Or if you want something more turnkey with IKEv2 support (if you have devices that can't use WG) then check out Algo [1].

But there is likely no need for or reason to use a "VPN provider" if all you're looking to do is shift your virtual entry point to the internet from the edge, and lots of good reasons not to. The only real exception would be if latency is a major concern, you travel very widely and don't want to deal with any extra hassle setting up a solution to move between regions. In that case might be worth keeping an eye on CloudFlare's "Warp" solution [2], which will probably be about as good as it gets in that regard since they've got infrastructure worldwide and will be able to route well.

But I'd definitely suggest checking out running WG (alone of via Algo) yourself. It really is straight forward.

----

1: https://github.com/trailofbits/algo

2: https://blog.cloudflare.com/1111-warp-better-vpn/

daniel-cussen• 7 years ago

Mullvad was alright. Didn't ask me any questions other than payment information.

msh• 7 years ago

For non do it your self I would use freedome by f secure, which is a reputable security company with a long history.

For do it yourself the best option is algo.

01CGAT• 7 years ago

I would recommend my own company, based in the Netherlands: WifiMask.com.

A VPN with a focus on WiFi protection. MacOS and iOS only for now, I'm working on Android and Windows too. Send me an email for a test account if you'd like to try it out: support@wifimask.com

ggg2• 7 years ago

in this day and age: just buy a data plan sim card! it will be safer, more pratical and cheaper.

even if you have to splurge in one country or another with bad monopoly cases (e.g. visiting the usa) it's still better than using a combination of open wifi + shady vpn (all of them)

tobib• 7 years ago

That's interesting, I too, have had the exact opposite experience. After having tried multiple VPN providers I settled for NordVPN because it gave me the most consistent speed.

bitxbitxbitcoin• 7 years ago

Just a friendly reminder to the world that NordVPN is also the one that lies about being based in Panama :).

Aromasin3• 7 years ago

Source? I can't find anything about them not being based there at all.

EDIT: After some brief hunting I found a HN comment with some scattered information about them possibly being based in Lithuania [1]. Not sure what to think about that personally.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18609655

UpperBodyEimi• 7 years ago

Where are they based?

safeplanet-fesa3• 7 years ago

Likely, in Lithuania, where they are subject to data retention laws, which means they are obliged to keep data for 6 month. I can suggest to search for "NordVPN Tesonet", the scandal that happened a year ago or so. The data mining possibility is horrible on its own, but Reddit and Hacker News users have discovered much more on the way. Everything is already said and exposed, hard to believe how much influence in general media they have that they could bury the whole story.

hartator• 7 years ago

From NordVPN response:

It all started when we received information that led us to finding a TorGuard server configuration file lying in the open on the internet.

It's highly doubtful that's some random person will send some security vulnerabilities about a company to another unrelated company. It's more probable that NordVPN had its own team trying to hack or at least test Torguard defenses. That makes the DDoS allegations more believable.

kabacha• 7 years ago

It's highly doubtful that's some random person will send some security vulnerabilities about a company to another unrelated company.

When I had a small web-crawling/automation business we'd get quite few emails like that oferring all sorts of datasets and security holes for sale. We never responded (people already have a hate boner for web-crawlers lol).

Maybe someone with more gray/black hat infosec knowledge could comment on plausability on this but honestly I wouldn't underestimate black hat sales skills :)

kaivi• 7 years ago

Maybe off topic, but if anyone from NordVPN is reading this: for the love of god fix your iOS and OS X clients, so they don't log out randomly. I can't even begin to describe how frustrating that is.

vortico• 7 years ago

$75,000

Wouldn't this only just barely cover court/lawyer costs?

phonon• 7 years ago

That's the minimum to make it a Federal lawsuit. The damages, if any, would be determined later.

skippybobby• 7 years ago

You can clearly see that TG include stuff about Nord that aint related to the lawsuit, nor to the court itself, and thats clearly why - to make Nord look bad guys in this scenario, while all the claims sounds like bs. Torguard hasn’t even filled in the correct company name when they filed the suit first, which speaks for itself on how professional they are. Anyhow, how is that Nord the bad guy now and everyone forgets the fact that they just wanted to let torguard know about their own vulnerability to fix?

robertthebruce2• 7 years ago

And how do you know the Micfo IP fraud is not related to NordVPN? They were using them extensively.

Collective Seven (C7) is related to a very long list of VPNs, including Nord, yet NordVPN has denied knowing them.

Anyhow, how is that Nord the bad guy now and everyone forgets the fact that they just wanted to let torguard know about their own vulnerability to fix?

It looks bad because they tried to force censorship in exchange for a non vulnerability. Torguard has a bounty program but instead Nord sent someone to the Torguard employee's house and tried to intimidate them into silencing a Youtuber.

It appears Nord knew what they had was not a vulnerability but still wanted use it as leverage for taking down the Youtuber's videos. This is censorship at it's worst.

safeplanet-fesa3• 7 years ago

NordVPN is one of the ugliest in the on its own shady VPN business. They did their best to slowly make the Tesonet scandal slide away. Here on HN some users provided extensive insights about their connections with the Lithuanian data mining company and convincingly demonstrated that NordVPN must be the most evil VPN honeypot and deceiver.

trymas2• 7 years ago

Can you tell more about what is the "Tesonet scandal"?

I've heard such shady stuff about NordVPN that I would never trust them with their data, also would never trust any other VPN provider.

EDIT: I thing I've found it:

https://restoreprivacy.com/lawsuit-names-nordvpn-tesonet/

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17258203

I was informed before not to use NordVPN for their (anecdotal) shady practices, but the fact that ProtonMail is in this crap too - I do not know who to trust anymore when I am buying "privacy" online.

protonmail2• 7 years ago

ProtonMail is not involved and the story is really bogus. Proton happens to have an office in Lithuania (one of 6 globally) and was dragged in as a result, but otherwise there is no real connection as explained here: https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtonVPN/comments/8ww4h2/protonvpn...

ProtonVPN in particular has been vetted by third parties such as Mozilla, and is operated very transparently as outlined here: https://protonvpn.com/blog/is-protonvpn-trustworthy/

The location of Proton offices for example, has always been publicly disclosed, the directors of the Swiss parent company Proton Technologies AG, and the company's CERN roots, etc, are all in public record.

sleepyburrito• 7 years ago

PIA has been caught orchestrating smearing campaign against nord in the past. It's funny to see how pias employee is all over this thread again, trying to undermine a competitor. Are you a messenger now for torguard now also?

rb666• 7 years ago

Why even use NordVPN when you can have AirVPN. Better in all ways...

Tomspark12• 7 years ago

Hey guys, Tom Spark here. I'm the video content creator that caused this whole thing. NordVPN hates my channel since I critique and criticize them a lot. They want to censor my channel to remove the bad reviews and so forth (ironic from a VPN company that is suppose to prevent censorship no?). To date, NordVPN is one of the lowest rated VPNs on my VPN tier list at http://vpntierlist.com/.

They are also in the news a lot for various things and I make sure to cover it whereas other VPN affiliates don't (most VPN affiliates are aligned with 100% based comission VPNs like Nord).

I summarized the entire story with 3 videos if anyone wants the full story. Or the latest take on Nord's blog post here (which I believe to be complete bull) :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icD3Bva7xtY

knd7755• 7 years ago

I'm not directly accusing you of anything, but you sort of come across as a shill or extreme fanboy of TorGuard. How can you give them 5s across the board?

-Speed: During my testing with PIA and TorGuard, PIA was consistently 50% faster.

-App: The TorGuard app is lacking in features and poorly designed.

-Price: It's substantially more expensive than most providers.

-Reputation: They've had not too great a reputation for a while now

I do not believe that you are an objective party here.

kristofferR2• 7 years ago

Yeah, to still give them 5 stars for reputation after this whole lawsuit fiasco, is absurd. The apps are mediocre at best, rated just 3.1/5: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/torguard-anonymous-vpn-servi..., so if nothing else his app score is clear evidence of him being impartial.

According to comments on his review they've also added Google trackers/capchas to their login page, something you wouldn't see on a reputable provider.

Tomspark12• 7 years ago

Speed - PIA has always been a fast competitor to TorGuard. However, TG is extremely fast for torrenting, like REALLY fast. Test it yourself, or watch my videos.

App - The app's design is fine, a bit old school, but easy to use and updated within the last year. It also has a ton of security features (app + network switch), streaming IP integration, and the list goes on.

Price - It's the same price as PIA now, and with my discount code "tomspark" which isn't unique really, since TG has thousands of 50% off codes floating around, its $5 a month compared to $10 a month with PIA...

Reputation - TG's reputation has been flawless. They don't make any false claims and are honest about their jurisdiction, as well as a no logs policy.This is why so many VPNs try to buy them out (as claimed in the TG lawsuit document)..The fact they are sueing another VPN for blackmailing them is a good thing IMO. They are showing some balls. The fact so many VPNs are trying to DDOS TorGuard as well, shows they are doing something right.

So yes, I am an objective party. I have been reviewing VPNs since 2015, and have re-reviewed more than 20+ VPNs this year alone.

Not to mention TorGuard only has an affiliate commission rate of 30% which makes it lower than most any other VPN in the industry (proving that I am not a sellout like other reviewers).

preommr2• 7 years ago

That video raised quite a few red flags with me and don't think that was a good coverage of this controversy.

For one thing, I don't think nordvpn would care about the 5k bug bounty.

From reading https://restoreprivacy.com/torguard-nordvpn-lawsuit-blackmai... it seems like there are quite a few serious allegations that are so absolutely ridiculous that it has to be nonsense or so ridiculous they're likely to be true.

Also, suing the wrong company is a big oversight. That's really sloppy work and doesn't inspire a lot of confidence.

Tomspark12• 7 years ago

They confused two companies in Toronto that are both caused C7. It's an easy mistake to make, and one that was corrected in just a few days.

You just posted a link to a blog that rates NordVPN as it's #2 rated VPN, and hasn't even reviewed TorGuard yet, so that source is not credible at all.

PatrolX3• 7 years ago

Oh look it's Tom Spark - TorGuard Affiliate Number: #4374

You're not biased at all are you Mr. TorGuard Affiliate?

Mr. TorGuard Affiliate that lists only one VPN (TorGuard) on his website as "God Tier", what a joke.

Tomspark12• 7 years ago

Here, watch this you troll: https://youtu.be/ppbZ3tFQ1ts

safeplanet-fesa3• 7 years ago

I used to be one using and praising ProtonMail, but after the Tesonet scandal turned me around. The worst evidence for me was their responses, how they were constantly calling it a "smear campaign by PIA", often not providing any plausible explanations. Duh, PIA published it and put work into raising public awareness. They are competitors, they found your dirty laundry and published it, duuuuh. Whoever discovered it, doesn't matter, they couldn't respond to the actual facts, only repeating the annoying combination of words "smear campaign". I don't trust a single VPN provider and would rather trust my exit point to my ISP which is regulated by local laws, rather then trusting it to god know whom god knows where. I would be happy to see the issues of Tesonet and their links to NordVPN and ProtonMail/VPN raised again!

protonmail2• 7 years ago

Not sure if you saw it, but Proton published a response here: https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtonVPN/comments/8ww4h2/protonvpn...

The fact that hundreds of Twitter bots were used to spread the allegations is rather strong evidence that there was indeed a smear campaign. Details about this here: https://protonvpn.com/blog/is-protonvpn-trustworthy/

despera2• 7 years ago

This whole drama (not of the highest quality) should be a big warning for all those naive people (trying hard not to call names) who seem to not completely understand the HUGE trust threats that _all_ VPN services entail. VPN services are black boxes. You have absolutely no idea what they doing in their black boxes despite all their claims. A nice post that sums everything up: https://schub.io/blog/2019/04/08/very-precarious-narrative.h...

trymas2• 7 years ago

100% concur to your opinion.

Anecdata, but from couple stories from people who worked/interviewed at VPN providers - I believe that in couple years we'll start see same horror stories of private data issues, like we are having with social network and internet ad businesses today.

EDIT: apparently my anecdata is not anecdotal [0]. When it's race to the bottom for consumer pricing - your bandwith is resold (or at least there's capability to do that) for botnet purposes.

[0] https://restoreprivacy.com/lawsuit-names-nordvpn-tesonet/

despera2• 7 years ago

I'm sure we will, there have already been cases where claims about not keeping logs turned to be plain lies, sure why some wouldn't share their user's habits for further "analysis" for extra profit upon subscriptions.

The plain fact is that you don't know what they are doing, it's impossible to know.

If they ever find a way for an introspective verification/validation of configurations coupled with the connection itself (or whatever mumbo jumbo), then we can talk again about middle-men's trust.

crisopolis• 7 years ago

So pretty much NordVPN pokes TorGuard into suing and now... NordVPN gets to put TorGuard in a body bag and call it a day as they've always wanted. Mission Accomplished.

NordVPN sued by Torguard for blackmail [pdf]

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