Sedans Aren’t Dead, American Sedans Are

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-11-29/chevrolet-sedans-suffer-while-toyota-and-honda-hang-on

by howard941 • 8 years ago

176 366 8 years ago

bloomberg.com

nrjames2• 8 years ago

It's odd that this article doesn't mention Tesla.

olliej2• 8 years ago

Unclear if this is a joke - tesla’s cost much more than most sedans - the market for most us sedans is not the same.

nrjames2• 8 years ago

Not a joke. Tesla is an American car company shipping sedans. The mid-range Model 3 is getting lower in price. While it might not be price-comparable to some of the others mentioned in the article, it's still an American sedan.

rconti4• 8 years ago

Average Transaction Price for "light vehicles" (which seems to include luxury sedans, luxury SUVs, pickups, etc) was was $36,270 in January 2018.[1]

It's not nothing, but a ~$46k medium range Model 3 is not so terribly far from that, and in fact hits that on the nose if you manage to buy one in the next 14 hours in California (or a state with even better state-level incentives like Colorado). :) (Tesla is 'promising' delivery before end of 2018 if you order in November; I only know this because my in-laws are looking at it right now).

[1] https://mediaroom.kbb.com/2018-02-01-Average-New-Car-Prices-...

jandrese4• 8 years ago

But the replacement the US car companies are offering are SUVs, which are more expensive than the sedans they are replacing.

This seems more like the companies saying "What products have the biggest profit margins? Lets just make those."

This is fine so long as the government is willing to say "no" when the next oil crunch happens and people start scrambling for efficient or electric cars instead of big trucks and SUVs and the big 3 find themselves in trouble in exactly the same way the did last time.

Or they'll just blame it on the unions and move everything to China.

jddaigle5• 8 years ago

Plus Teslas (at least the S) aren't really traditional sedans. They're liftbacks (hatch with a sloping rear window) plus they have a "frunk". And they adhere to the "distinctive styling as signaling" rule of hybrids.

thatGuy6• 8 years ago

No it's not. They're mentioning companies that can actually ship cars.

wolf550e• 8 years ago

Tesla ships more Model 3s than Ford ships Fusions:

http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/ford/ford-fusion/

http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/tesla/tesla-model-...

cmrdporcupine17• 8 years ago

It's not an article about luxury cars.

rconti4• 8 years ago

They clearly meant "big 3 automaker sedans".

2 American cars sit in my driveway; a BMW Z3 M Coupe that was built in Spartanburg, South Carolina, and a Tesla Model 3 sedan that was built across the bay in Fremont, California.

Though I will say, I generally hate the sedan form factor (from a styling and practicality standpoint), and of the ~10 or so cars my wife and I have owned, the Tesla is the first sedan.

gwbas1c3• 8 years ago

It really should, because the article states that US automakers are going to concentrate on electric vehicles.

cmrdporcupine17• 8 years ago

They killed the Chevy Volt, the only interesting sedan in GM's entire line-up. Incredibly short-sighted. Love it more than any car I've ever driven, despite it lacking in many of the 'creature comforts' of other cars. Fun to drive with excellent acceleration, I drive it 91% electric, and when I flip over to gas it's an excellent performing highly efficient hybrid.

Sad.

EDIT: I should add that really the Volt is not a 'sedan', but a 'liftback'. Far more utility out of the trunk than a typical sedan. My medium sized dog even fits back there.

lisper• 8 years ago

Even sadder: the Bolt is the affordable electric car that the Tesla Model 3 promised to be but isn't. And yet no one is excited about the Bolt. In fact, probably most people are not even aware that the Bolt exists. Sad indeed.

cmrdporcupine17• 8 years ago

They made odd choices on the body styling. It's a Chevy Trax but squished horizontally. And the naming sucks. The drivetrain is amazing.

They also just don't seem to want to make enough of them or ship them to markets where people want them. Canada was starved for inventory all last last year. None went to Europe. Asia, where they'd make a lot of sense, got only a smattering. And they don't seem to be improving on this.

The fate of the Volt and Bolt together makes me entirely skeptical of GM's claims to making a transition to EV production. I used to be a big advocate of GM's EV designs -- they're technically excellent -- but I don't think I can get behind the company at all. I'm somewhat tempted to sell my Volt and get a Honda Clarity PHEV.

bryanlarsen• 8 years ago

The Bolt is in the "awkward middle" compared to the Leaf & the 3. We test drove all 3 and quickly dismissed the Bolt: we'd either buy the cheap car or the best car.

pow_pp_-1_v• 8 years ago

Seems like GM just doesn't care about the Bolt. They are not available at all places and they do very little marketing for the Bolt. And finally, I guess it's for cutting costs, the insides of the car seems too "plastic-y".

mikeash13• 8 years ago

The Model 3 is a bit more expensive but not hugely so, and it’s waaaayyyy better. A lot of Model 3 buyers (myself included) are aware of the Bolt and just don’t see it as competitive.

Shivetya• 8 years ago

the next affordable EV to come to market with be the Kona. While not a sedan independent testers are already seeing 5miles per kwh which is incredible and its price points are very good.

the issue is availability, in the US it is expected to be a CARB state car only for awhile.

When I decided to move from my 2017 Volt to a pure EV I really wanted a sedan which led me to the TM3 I did buy but I did try to give the Bolt a chance but simply put, the killer app of the TM3 is the super charging network. That and i have found the spartan dash has made me rethink the need for dozens of buttons most cars have.

Recent Kona review https://youtu.be/LATZ0g-Sz2s

jseliger• 8 years ago

The Bolt still starts at $36,620, according to chevy.com/bolt. It's an amazing car in some ways but doesn't look very good. It's hard to imagine many people choosing it over a Tesla Model 3. Yes, right now you can't get the less-expensive Teslas, but eventually you will be able to.

If GM started the Bolt at $25K and offered nicely equipped ones for $28 or $29K, there would be an interesting competition against Tesla. But they don't.

BTW, like some other posts, I think the Volt is a brilliant car: https://jakeseliger.com/2018/11/29/steve-levines-the-powerho... and it's unfortunate that it's not proven popular too.

bduerst• 8 years ago

That's because Chevy, knowing they have the only Model 3 substitute product, is charging ridiculous prices for what the Bolt really is.

cbm-vic-202• 8 years ago

The Bolt EV is a really nice car; sure, not as nice and definitely without the cachet of the Tesla, but also much less expensive. My SO recently purchased a Bolt and has been very pleased with it- she specifically wanted a hatchback, so it was a perfect fit. The range is pretty great, "range anxiety" no longer affects her.

If you've not been coddled with the "luxury car" interiors, you'll find the Bolt's interior to be perfectly fine. It's not Audi/BMW/Benz/Tesla level, but IMO it's not as "plasticky" as other commenters have mentioned: it's not the 90s Malibu crap that GM pumped out back then. The screen is nice and big (not Tesla-big), and integrates just fine with Apple and Android Auto.

For 90% of the trips made by 90% of the people in the US, the Bolt is a perfectly fine car.

joshlemer• 8 years ago

the Bolt is the affordable electric car that the Tesla Model 3 promised to be but isn't

It has an MSRP starting from $44,000 Canadian Dollars. This is affordable?

ams61105• 8 years ago

The Bolt is still $30,000 after tax credits. That's not what most people would call "affordable." It's a car I'd consider, with some reservations, but not at that price.

CydeWeys2• 8 years ago

It does seem amazingly short-sighted. EVs are the future and yet here they are scaling back on them.

It's like the other manufacturers are rushing to cede the entire market to Tesla.

sf_rob2• 8 years ago

I love my Volt, even having had a Model 3 reservation and done a test drive. I'm not saying it's a better car in any objective sense, but its compromises are areas I'm fine with. Honestly, I can't believe the Volt wasn't more popular. It's probably being due to not educating consumers enough about it, being strange looking, and being a GM.

cmrdporcupine17• 8 years ago

Yep, just imagine if Toyota had launched the Volt instead of the Prius. Or VW had made a Jetta-class vehicle with the Volt's drivetrain. Assuming they could get the battery supplies, it would have sold like bonkers.

In many ways the Volt is too good to be true, and I think that makes buyers skeptical.

Biggest fault is insufficient cabin space.

rsync• 8 years ago

"They killed the Chevy Volt, the only interesting sedan in GM's entire line-up."

I saw that as great news: moving beyond the hybrid stop-gap towards real electric cars. The Bolt is still for sale and I hope that the platform and their technology move into other GM vehicles.

FWIW, in 30 minutes I will be at the local chevy dealer purchasing a Bolt.

burk96• 8 years ago

Hey you must be purchasing a Bolt right now, so congrats!

I understand your reasoning for seeing the removal of the hybrid as a good thing, but I can't agree with that. I would much rather see hybrids stay around and see gas vehicles phased out. Gas vehicles and hybrids still have the huge advantage of distribution over electric. It doesn't matter where I am in the US, I know that a gas station will be a common site in pretty much all towns or major roadways. If I need to drive 150 miles in one direction for something and then come back the same day (not uncommon where I live), I don't want to do that in an electric vehicle!

The volt is so appealing because I know it could do that using so much less gas than the average gas vehicle. And for those days I don't leave town, it would be in practice an electric vehicle.

r00fus2• 8 years ago

As an EV owner I think PHEVs are a great fit for a single-car household. I struggle to convince apartment renters or singles to go gas-free.

whalesalad• 8 years ago

Keeping the Bolt though.

s0rce• 8 years ago

Horrible blind spot though.

sf_rob2• 8 years ago

A pillar yes, C pillar is bad but doesn't bother me because the reverse camera is fantastic (for a mid priced sedan). My only complaint is that there aren't turn signal cameras for lane changes.

cmrdporcupine17• 8 years ago

Agree it's crap, but I've gotten used to it. Every car has its quirks. But not having to pay for gas is a bonus I can't ignore.

esotericn3• 8 years ago

The car market in its' totality has always struck me as being irrational.

It takes a large amount of number crunching to determine that an old small Japanese car has the cheapest TCO.

The same follows across the categories (e.g. the article's specific focus on sedans).

A whole bunch of mid-market brands seemingly exist for no reason other than for some groups of not-wealthy people to waste money in an attempt to impress other groups of not-wealthy people.

e.g. the German cars which seem to exist as some sort of indicator that someone can afford to burn money maintaining a depreciating asset.

It's basically the (non-smart) watch market, right. You wear a Casio-level watch if you don't care, a Rolex-level watch if you're signalling, and other stuff is basically an enthusiast market.

rock_hard• 8 years ago

Well, this assumes that it’s all about TCO or status.

But have you ever driven a Mercedes, BMW, Porsche or Audi? The driving expierence is superior to everything else! Tesla gets close...but I can’t think of any other brand that does.

esotericn3• 8 years ago

Right, that's the enthusiast market.

nickik• 8 years ago

I bet that you could not pick a BMW or Audi from equally priced car from other companies.

jszymborski• 8 years ago

I think it's fair to say this falls under grandparent's "enthusiast" category. Nothing wrong with being an enthusiast, but I think the characterization as "irrational" is probably correct.

vinay4272• 8 years ago

BMW's recent models are mostly a joke in dynamics. See almost any review of many of their new models for further explanation. This unfortunately isn't 2010 anymore.

Mercedes hasn't been kenown for driving dynamics, but perhaps their solidity is great. Porsche is absolutely renowned for the driving experience they provide.

There are plenty that can match these in every class. If you only consider brands based on an overall perception, then sure, maybe not.

The Cadillac ATS and Alfa Romeo Giulia are almost universally regarded as dynamically superior to their 3-series equivalents, for a common example.

crispyambulance• 8 years ago

    > The driving experience is superior

Driving experience only goes so far in bumper-to-bumper traffic. Those aren't cars that people "need". Most lux car owners will also have a "beater" car that they use for real life.

Status is an important motivator and should not be dismissed.

MoBattah4• 8 years ago

Driven Benz, BMW, Porsche, Audi, Tesla, Rolls Royce, Ferrari, Lamborghini, etc.

No way in hell is a C-Class Benz worth it's price. Tesla drives way better and is much more fun.

I think it's about TCO, status, reliability and maybe fun-factor.

Nobody buys an Audi or Benz for 'fun-factor'. Especially not when they get AMG or i versions.

lostmsu• 8 years ago

I had driven BMW 3s and Minis via ReachNow. Did not feel anything special vs my Honda, or any rental I had.

dreamcompiler• 8 years ago

I love my Audi S4, but I find the Tesla Model S to be even more fun than my car. Unfortunately it's too expensive.

Johnny5552• 8 years ago

Is that true in typical urban driving conditions of stop and go, or at least slow traffic? I think the only thing that would help make my driving experience better in this traffic would be radar cruise control that can handle stop/go traffic.

I've found that the best driving experience in my commute conditions is a $500,000 bus because I can get some work done or relax so the length of the commute doesn't mattter so much.

matthewmcg3• 8 years ago

It's bonkers if you take the narrow view that cars are strictly about transportation. But of course people desire and enjoy cars and trucks for all kinds of reasons--including aspirational signaling like you describe, but also the experience of driving or riding in them, or even just an appreciation of artful styling or impressive engineering.

The sales trends observed in the article seem to be explained by a mass shifting of tastes.

Domenic_S2• 8 years ago

I don't know about a taste shift -- as the article said, Corollas and Camrys and Civics have seen no such shift. I personally can't see any reason to take a chance on an (historically bad) American car, even with the "but we've changed!" story, when so much good stuff is available elsewhere.

drivingmenuts• 8 years ago

I know why I drive a Volkswagen - it fits. Every American car I have ever driven doesn't work for my 6'5 narrow frame (I'm also long-legged, short torso). There's also the tendency to load up the dash with every possible piece of information and turn the radio into some kind of Microsoft supercomputer.

It's a car - it needs to get me reliably and comfortably from point A to point B with a minimum of distraction, look presentable and connect to my iPhone for music.

The TCO on VWs, in my experience, is very low, mostly because they don't have complex add-ons that break constantly.

bovermyer• 8 years ago

Whenever my wife's Beetle breaks in any way, the repair cost is easily 5-10x what a comparable repair is for my Accord. She's had to do repairs on her car three times since she got it. I've had to do repairs on mine... zero. The cars have been in our possession for about the same time and are almost the same age.

I daresay that the TCO on Volkswagens is higher than "very low."

rconti4• 8 years ago

German cars are odd like that. I know 3 really tall guys; one is 6'8" and the other two are 6'10". They all drive German cars because they FIT. For some reason an A4 and a Golf fit the 6'10" guys just fine; one of whom would look out the REAR side window driving an Infiniti Q45 ("full size" luxury sedan).

There's just something about German car design that is sizing magic. I could even fit behind my 6'10" friend driving his A4, which for all intents and purposes (in the US, at least) is an entry-level/compact luxury car.

tcoff913• 8 years ago

I moved to VW from hondas and toyotas. Overall i love the car but i would say that maintenance is much much more expensive than japanese cars. German auto mechanics and VW parts are just so much more expensive than japanese. I have no dealership in my city so I have to see independent mechanics. It's insane how expensive they are!

Infernal• 8 years ago

I am 6'8", also long legged with a (relatively) short torso. In general, it holds that the Japanese companies build small cars for small people, American companies build big cars for big people, and European companies build small cars for big people.

Exceptions can be found of course, but this is overwhelmingly the rule. Even Japanese cars that /should/ be big are not made to accommodate larger occupants - see the Lexus LS series for instance, their largest luxury sedan - for some reason the front seat stops well short of sliding back and occupying all the room it could, therefore my knees are crammed up into the dash. Same goes for Toyota Avalon, Sienna, various Acuras I've tried, Honda Accord, etc. etc.

Contrast my experience in Japanese cars with the smaller Audi A4, or my (much, much smaller) 1984 5-series BMW, where the front seats are able to run back as far as touching the back seat, resulting in ample leg room when needed.

For American vehicles, at least when you pony up the $$ for the larger models, you actually get occupant space to match - in my experience all American vehicles based on a half ton or larger truck frame offer ample interior space even for someone of my stature - this is Silverado, Tahoe, Yukon, Escalade, Expedition, etc.

sunshinelackof• 8 years ago

The car market in its' totality has always struck me as being irrational.

Consumers aren't known for their rationality.

criddell• 8 years ago

It takes a large amount of number crunching to determine that an old small Japanese car has the cheapest TCO.

Is there some way to include the environmental cost as well? A 10 year old Honda Civic is going to cost less in that regard than a 10 year old BMW 318. But what about a 10 year old Prius?

esotericn3• 8 years ago

Sure; taxation should be pricing in externalities.

Buying a less polluting car that costs more is effectively a charitable donation.

Most individuals don't make charitable donations of $1000+.

Incidentally, this is one of the reasons Tesla are so great. It's fun to drive, so the extra cost isn't purely charitable.

tcoff913• 8 years ago

You are completely discounting the subjective experience of driving different cars. Some cars are just flat-out much more enjoyable to drive. When people are spending significant portions of their lives driving, getting more enjoyment or comfort out of that time matters to people.

It's completely rational to want to enjoy your time driving a vehicle if you spend a lot of time in the car. Driving a chevy cobalt is just awful compared to driving a higher quality vehicle.

You're also far more likely to be able to avoid an accident when you have better handling and more powerful brakes. Even horsepower/torque can be a safety feature for certain accident avoidance situations.

MoBattah4• 8 years ago

Can easily get more comfort in a budget car by adding packages.

AnimalMuppet• 8 years ago

I think esotericn is classifying that as the "enthusiast market". "More enjoyable to drive" matters, sure. But for most of us, it's not the primary driver of the buying decision - practicality is.

dingaling• 8 years ago

Some cars are just flat-out much more enjoyable to drive.

The counterpoint to that is Audi ( A4 in particular ); dreadfully unbalanced whale-like FWD with the engine hanging out over the front wheels. Objectively dynamically inferior to the humble Ford Mondeo. But sold in droves in spartan-spec because of badge cachet.

They have recently started to tidy up their handling but still lag more humble brands.

lotyrin• 8 years ago

Yeah, but what portion of the market can realistically afford the luxury, and what portion of the market cannot afford it but buy in anyways?

How do you explain away the people like an old high school friend of mine that was so brand loyal to the concept of a european luxury car that they got the only such model they could afford (purely in cap-ex terms) which was aging and constantly being maintained (could have easily leased a late model asian economy car instead, with money to spare) and from which all of the subjective experience features were gone (sounded awful, felt awful, smelled awful, and had little remaining intact interior materials)?

Also, there are cars that manage to have both terrible TCO and lack any positive subjective experience features but manage to make it onto the roadways regardless.

There should be an elastic luxury portion of the market where you have the typical dealership experience -- but it should be a tiny minority. The rest of the market should be very concrete, where you show up and just pay a simple price for a simple commodity vehicle that competes with the others through simple metrics (fuel economy, cargo capacity, crash test performance, power-to-weight ratio, warranty terms, etc.) I get an independent party's TCO estimator where I can fill in my average miles per year, how often and how much I might haul, number of years I plan to own it before selling, etc. and they use past data to project costs of ownership (down to considering things like "this model engine has been in use for many years so we can be very confident about its cost of maintanance) to get a TCO for all the models in this segment to easily consider before ordering, and no grubby salesmen are required -- it's mostly between me and the engineers that conspire to build a reliable machine -- no executives to decide that the model line needs to be segmented in such and such a way to trick me into paying more to get much less with by putting a single economy feature (like durable LED headlamps) in the top of the line model with a bunch of other things I really would rather not have (wood texture details and crap).

appleiigs2• 8 years ago

Japanese cars annoy the heck out of me. I occasionally (forced to) drive a Toyota Venza. Here my issues:

1. low torque at low RPMs.

2. suspension is too soft.

3. it beeps at me constantly. Lock/unlock door, open door, start car, etc.

4. complicated (too many buttons) screens and radio.

5. doesn't allow me to do things I want: a) open door while in drive, b) turn off all my lights when i turn light switch to off, c) use certain screen functions when i drive.

6. hatch door doesn't open if battery is dead.

I'm sure I'd have more if I actually owned the vehicle. The BMW I own doesn't treat me like an idiot.

cmrdporcupine17• 8 years ago

VW/Audi group also seems to be designing cars with the 'idiot' perspective now. Rented a 2018 Q5 earlier this year and had same issue with not being able to open door while in drive or reverse (which sucks for checking parking spaces). Our 2013 Q5 we own doesn't do this. My old Jetta liked to lock the doors the moment the ignition turned on, which meant my kids would reach for the door to enter and find it locked even though I just unlocked the doors. Things like that, highly irritating.

Car controls should be predictable and easily accessed through muscle memory.

crooked-v• 8 years ago

a) open door while in drive, b) turn off all my lights when i turn light switch to off, c) use certain screen functions when i drive

As a fellow driver, I wish there were more cars on the road like this.

saturdaysaint• 8 years ago

1 and 2 are signature Toyota characteristics, and I'd expect them to be apparent on a big vehicle with little performance emphasis like the Venza. There are a lot of good Japanese cars that have lots of available torque and road-feel. Mazda and Honda feature on just about every enthusiast magazine "Car of the Year" list for good reason.

Johnny5552• 8 years ago

I'm curious how important "6. hatch door doesn't open if battery is dead." is -- I can count the number of times my battery has died in the past decade on one finger - and that time it still had enough power to unlock the doors, it just couldn't start the car. (door not closed all the way all weekend so the interior lights were on)

My car doesn't have an electric-only trunk lock, but if it did, I could just fold the seats down for access to the trunk... and I could crawl in and pull the emergency release if I really needed to open it.

black-tea• 8 years ago

It depends on the car. My Honda is super simple, let's me do what I want, and has firm suspension. Even BMWs of the same period were ridiculously complicated and less about being fun to drive. Having all the power high up in the rev range is just something you have to get used to. It's fun.

mturmon• 8 years ago

You think it's all about TCO vs. signaling. The trade space has a lot more dimensions, and you're getting a lot of pushback, especially about the "driving experience" dimension.

I'd like to add "reliability" as another dimension that does not seem to have been mentioned yet.

I just exited a beloved "old small Japanese car" (1998 Civic), partly because parts were starting to break down. Usually it was nuisance stuff, but it takes time to fix. The TCO of the old car was well less than (say) the payment on my new car, but I couldn't deal with the unpredictability and the lost time.

mtw2• 8 years ago

It takes a large amount of number crunching to determine that an old small Japanese car has the cheapest TCO.

How so? It's trivial to get the average maintenance costs of a car based on model and year. It doesn't take an excel spreadsheet to conclude that something like a 2010 Toyota Corolla would have lowest TCO

MoBattah4• 8 years ago

Thank you. What you describe is exactly what I've noticed after delving into the car world via rentals.

If you're buying a sedan -- Toyota/Honda/Kia.

If you own a BMW/Audi/Benz, you're not wealthy and you're just signalling to other non-wealthy individuals. It's interesting because most of the BMW/Audi/Benz look terrible and are way cheaper than most expect yet still a terrible, arrogant waste of capital.

Only a few brands don't match this. Tesla and Range Rover. The former for obvious reasons. The latter because no comparable high-end SUV exists.

If you bought a Ford/Chevy, you're asking for reliability issues.

sjg0074• 8 years ago

Ford and Chevy are pretty reliable. BMWs are fun to drive. Porsches are a step above BMW in terms of fun factor.

compiler-guy3• 8 years ago

"If you own a BMW/Audi/Benz, you're not wealthy and you're just signalling to other non-wealthy individuals."

Err, the median income of a 2017 Mercedes-Benz E-class buyer was nearly $200,000 [1]. That qualifies as pretty high income. The numbers are similar for BMW and Audi.

You can argue that they aren't "wealthy" (as this isn't a measure of net worth), but people with high incomes are more likely to be wealthy than people without. Someone making $200K a year certainly isn't the stereotypical person "faking being rich" you portray them as here.

"Look terrible and are way cheaper": well, "look terrible" is all about personal taste. If it doesn't float your boat, then fine, but it apparently floats enough boats that the companies sell a lot of them.

"Way cheaper" is almost objectively false. Most reviewers like the cabins of the luxury brands far more than they like the cabins of the non luxury. You may think they aren't worth the extra dollars, but when someone is wealthy, the marginal value of those extra dollars is lower.

[1] https://www.jdpower.com/cars/expert-reviews/powersteering-20...

sk5t3• 8 years ago

If you want to know what the self-driving truly wealthy drive, in the USA it's mostly Jeeps, Chevy Tahoes, and the like. Sometimes a Land Cruiser or an old Benz, preferably a wagon. Standing out in a fancy vehicle like a lottery-winning rube isn't it.

gniv• 8 years ago

One point that I'm not seeing clearly articulated in this sub-thread: The US is widely rich. A lot of people can afford to buy things for status-signaling, no matter how silly you and I find it.

d1zzy2• 8 years ago

You know, there are German cars that are priced competitively.

When I went shopping for a new hatchback moving on from the 20 year old Hold Civic, I did look at Honda Civic, VW Golf and tons of other small hatchbacks and I ended up with the WV which wasn't even the most expensive choice.

bitrrrate• 8 years ago

A key passage from the article.

"Once Americans began driving Hondas and Toyotas, they discovered that these cars had a lot more going for them than just gas mileage — they broke down infrequently, could last for hundreds of thousands of miles, and were even fun to drive."

If the US sedan makers can't compete then they should deprecate those cars. Why make something that people aren't buying? Cars are too expensive these days to have to pay for frequent maintenance or fit-and-finish issues. Never mind the fact that "American" cars are not as American as they used to be and the Camry isn't distinctively Japanese.

virmundi• 8 years ago

The sad thing is that American automakers can't, even if that is they won't, make good cars. I don't get it. Why can't they make a fuel pump that lasts 100k miles? It's obviously possible since Japan does it. What's holding us back? Is the engineers? Is it the labor assembling things? Why can't we compete? Management being stupid and chasing this quarter's numbers above all else?

WorldMaker2• 8 years ago

The US stock market? How do you plan for purchase horizons of ten to fifteen years and very little maintenance operations in that window, when your shareholders only care about what you did for them for a quarter of a year at a time?

ip266• 8 years ago

Totally speculating, but from the outside it seems like stagnation & resistance to change. The Corvette still uses leaf springs. All three of the Big Three hung on to SOHC & other relics for far longer than Japan. I also remember as a shade-tree mechanic, Japanese engines were always precise, intricate, and sharp (suggesting computer design & milling) while the Fords of the same decade were not, and frequently the arrangements were irrational. Rangers needed the intake manifold removed to access the spark plugs. This always suggested to me more casting & hand drawing.

American automakers seem to make some great stuff when they are actually pushing the envelope- the EcoBoost line I hear is very solid, and the aluminum frame in the F150 seems to be doing great (notice: lots of FUD when it launched, silence ever since). The Volt & Bolt have had many great things said about them.

Whether it's conservative engineers, or tight purses, or unrealistic schedules, or even just myopic American Exceptionalism, I do not know.

lazulicurio• 8 years ago

IMO it's a combination of multiple factors. Chasing short term profits definitely plays a role, but there are other cultural factors. An adversarial relationship with labor[1]. Over-reliance on inspection processes to catch production issues. Poor engineering culture that focuses on individual issues as they occur instead of taking a systems-level view. Over-reliance on metrics and KPIs. Performance review criteria that incentivize ignoring or under-reporting issues[2].

Also note that fuel pumps may not be the best example. American manufacturing of mechanical components has gotten a lot better over the past couple of decades. But electronic components are the new opportunity to repeat the mistakes of the pasts.

[1] Watch https://youtu.be/qg8bbFwZLMA?t=1760 through about 44:20, which is an decent overview (although the explanation of Kaizen focuses too much on efficiency). Compare the description of the Japanese relationship with labor to how labor is usually treated in the US. Also notice from 36:40 on how much focus is put on technology versus process (although that may be forgiven since it is a TV show).

[2] For example, in theory you may say your employees have the authority to stop production if they notice an issue. But if the line workers are graded on how many parts they produce, and the engineers are graded on how much downtime there is, nobody is going to report anything.

WorldMaker2• 8 years ago

I think the better question is what's so wrong with the SUV/Truck market that they don't have to compete on TCO? That they still rake in so much in year over year maintenance costs? That the purchase horizon for most SUV/Truck owners seems to be ~4-5 years versus the ~10-15 year lifetimes that sedan owners demand/expect?

Isn't doubling down on the higher profit margins of SUV/Trucks an admittance that GM and Ford (and their more powerful shareholders) can't see far enough past the short term to compete in the sedan market? What happens if a correction happens in the SUV/Truck market that the time horizon starts to reflect sedans (again)?

twblalock3• 8 years ago

What happens if a correction happens in the SUV/Truck market that the time horizon starts to reflect sedans (again)?

I guess GM and Ford would just start making sedans again?

They could switch back. A lot of the crossovers are built on lifted sedan platforms anyway.

ip266• 8 years ago

I think the better question is what's so wrong with the SUV/Truck market that they don't have to compete on TCO?

The chicken tax, as discussed elsewhere in this thread. 25% tariff on imported trucks means domestic trucks have almost no foreign competition.

The one place they do, the compact/mid-size market, is totally dominated by the Tacoma (which sidesteps the chicken tax with domestic assembly), which is coincidentally famous for being an exceptionally reliable truck...

decebalus12• 8 years ago

Once Americans began driving Hondas and Toyotas, they discovered that these cars had a lot more going for them than just gas mileage

This resonates with my experience so much I couldn't help but write this. After my previous Japanese car saved my life in an accident, I went ahead and bought the new model, about a decade later.

I am seriously impressed. Things which were premium a while back are now standard. And the look-and-feel of the car, the comfort and driving feel is just amazing. I could go with a bigger more powerful engine but I mean the mileage is hard to beat. And I won't even mention the abundant safety features (which decreased my insurance premium!).

Although I can afford it, I have absolutely no interest in the premium brands.

twblalock3• 8 years ago

It's funny, most of the Japanese sedans that sell well in America do not sell well in Japan, and some of them are not even available to buy there. They were designed for the American market.

Japanese cars became bestsellers because the Japanese automakers started making better American-style sedans than the American automakers.

all2• 8 years ago

http://www.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3022-autosales.html

The above contains relevant numbers.

I'm seeing a lot of cars on the road that fit the wheel-base of a sedan, but are larger. Here are a few models that come to mind: Hyundai Kona [0], BMW X2 [1], Nissan LEAF (though this is an all electric offering) [2], and I'm sure there are more.

My point is, there are vehicles that are roughly the same size that fill the needs of people who would have purchased a sedan.

I'm guessing that if we refactored the numbers in terms of wheel-base and interior volume we'd see people are buying similar wheel-based cars with more interior volume.

[0] https://www.hyundaiusa.com/kona/index.aspx [1] https://www.bmwusa.com/vehicles/x-models/x2/sports-activity-... [2] https://www.nissanusa.com/vehicles/electric-cars/leaf.html

[edit] AND it looks like I missed a crucial piece of the title, so here are some 'murican cars that fit the description above: Chevy Trax [3], Buick Encore [4].

[3] https://www.chevrolet.com/suvs/trax-compact-suv [4] https://www.buick.com/suvs/encore-small-luxury-suv

[/edit]

matthewmcg3• 8 years ago

Agreed. Another way to personalize these data is this observation: 10 years ago, my friends and family all drove cars with separate trunks. Now none of us do.

njarboe2• 8 years ago

Any article on why US manufactures of vehicles focus on trucks instead of cars and does not mention the chicken tax [1] has not really done their homework. In 1965 a 25% tax was put on imported trucks due to a trade fight with Europe on chicken imports. This 25% tax is still in effect today. SUVs were also put in the truck category for some time and it is not clear which truck like vehicles will be taxed. This is why almost all trucks and SUVs made by non-US companies are manufactured in the US.

Profit margins on US made trucks have been much larger than autos for a long time(mostly due to this tax) and I imagine that all the marketing of the US auto companies over 40 years to get people to buy them instead of sedans has had quite an effect. Once a large number of people are driving tall trucks and SUVs, driving a car is much less comfortable, as you can't see past the truck in front of you from a low sedan.

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax

jonknee• 8 years ago

I think cheaper gas and long commutes has way more of an effect for Americans preferring larger vehicles than fewer foreign trucks being available.

njarboe2• 8 years ago

Correct, Americans have preferred larger cars for a long time. American cars in the 50' and 60's were quite large, especially luxury brands. For families, the large station wagon with a huge engine to tow a boat on the weekend and weighing over 2 tons were not uncommon[1]. Americans preferred cars over trucks and I image would have continued to do so if a huge amount of marketing over decades was not used to convince people to buy vehicles that were protected from foreign competition with a 25% import tax.

[1]https://www.automobile-catalog.com/car/1965/787220/ford_coun...

kenhwang6• 8 years ago

Americans being larger physically and more likely to be overweight probably also has a pretty large effect.

mtw2• 8 years ago

Also. You get a big truck/SUV for the same reason people prefer a big TV or a large suburban home than a 2 bedroom condo. Bigger is better, at least in the U.S.

bsamuels• 8 years ago

it's also because Americans spend a lot more time in their car than their friends across the pond.

if you're in your car for 2 hours a day commuting, driving the kids around, etc, then bigger is better and more comfortable

taf2• 8 years ago

or you have 3 kids and baby and need the space to drive them music lessons and pick up their friends

graeme• 8 years ago

Zoning encourages that large suburban home, by making walkable cities more expensive than they are elsewhere.

So, there are regulations pushing people in the direction of large homes and large vehicles.

Alex39172• 8 years ago

Once a large number of people are driving tall trucks and SUVs, driving a car is much less comfortable, as you can't see past the truck in front of you from a low sedan.

So just don't tailgate the car in front of you and then it doesn't matter. If the only way you're going to be able to stop in time is if you can see past/through the car in front of you then you're not driving safely to begin with.

paulie_a2• 8 years ago

If you don't sort of tailgate get ready for someone driving an SUV/truck to cut you off. I'm not saying be on their bumper, just close enough to keep others from dangerously cutting in front of you.

mtnGoat2• 8 years ago

i think you missed the point, it's not just a safety thing... its annoying as well. even with proper following distance, seeing more than the car in front of you adds to your safety.

beatgammit3• 8 years ago

I don't think that the main problem. I drive a sedan, and I have problems:

- seeing around trucks/SUVs parked near an intersection - turning right at a red when there's a truck/SUV next to me - finding parking spots in a parking lot dominated by trucks/SUVs (Costco is the worst) - seeing at night when there's a truck/SUV behind me (headlights)

It's quite frustrating, especially since I'm in a part of the country with tons of lifted trucks and massive SUVs (Utah).

coredog64• 8 years ago

Most manufacturers have already figured out how to game the chicken tax. For example, Ford installs seats that are removed and destroyed after each Transit Connect reaches the US [0]. I've heard other stories about Subaru doing something similar so that their CAFE metrics weren't screwed.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Transit_Connect#Tariff_ci....

iguy2• 8 years ago

The story with the Transit Connect is that it counts as a car (for this tax) while it has the seats, but would counts as a truck when configured for cargo.

But if this same tax discourages (say) Toyota from importing SUVs, then they must count as trucks always, even when configured for passengers. So this loophole doesn't help them.

I thought CAFE was a major factor, as (if I understand right) it discourages big powerful cars, but is silent on trucks including SUVs.

SilasX• 8 years ago

I'm more interested in learning why there's a lacking feedback mechanism for "hey, that's not what we wanted, let's revisit the regulations for what we were trying to achieve".

kevin_thibedeau• 8 years ago

Subaru already makes the Legacy/Outback domestically. They just complained justifiably when non-trucks like the PT Cruiser were classified as such for CAFE gaming.

pixelperfect• 8 years ago

Interestingly enough Donald Trump tweeted about this the other day:

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/10677911017828311...

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/10677926101804564...

black6• 8 years ago

Profit margins on US made trucks have been much larger than autos for a long time(mostly due to this tax)

I think it may have more to do with selling fuel efficient compact cars and sedans at a loss in order to sell enough to offset the poor economy of the American Truck™ and meet CAFE requirements.

zelon88• 8 years ago

This is also why the Subaru Brat had rear seats. Because it allowed Subaru to classify the vehicle as a car instead of a truck, circumventing the Chicken Tax.

wil421• 8 years ago

BMWs largest factory is in Spartanburg, South Carolina and they produce X series vehicles. Mercedes also makes a lot if not all the the GL line in Alabama. They both export out of the US as well.

I suppose it helps American manufacturing and creates jobs. I don’t like “trade wars” but import taxes are not all bad.

In my opinion US trucks are the best SUVs are great but too large for what folks use them for. Japan is good with both cars, suvs, and trucks but they are lackluster on the inside. German cars are my favorite but they are expensive to maintain and unreliable. American cars are terrible unless you like muscle cars.

ed_balls• 8 years ago

Sedans Aren't Dead, the market has segmented into sedans and liftbacks/4-door coupe. See BMW 3 and 4 series. It's p much the same car. People prefer for 4 because it's a bit more practical, but 3 series has large marketing so BMW maintain 2 models.

penglish1• 8 years ago

The article says that Americans never really regained trust in American manufactured sedans since the 60s/70s. But then doesn't explain.. who exactly was buying all those sedans.. while not trusting them? There definitely were a LOT of American sedan sales for a while there.

sjg0074• 8 years ago

Federal, state, and local governments. Taxis. Ford Focus did well too.

war10259• 8 years ago

I grew up in rural Iowa, and the concept of buying something not made by the big three was pretty exotic. The dealerships weren't around, so people didn't even consider them as an option.

Now most of the small town dealerships have gone under as part of the restructuring from the recession, so people are going to cities to buy cars anyway now. When they get to the city, there are dealerships for the foreign car makers, so I'd guess people end up more likely to buy one.

40acres• 8 years ago

I'm a city boy so mind the ignorance, but who is buying up all the trucks? I get the allure of a nice SUV/crossover, my next car will probably be one since I think the space is useful for when thinking about starting a family, but a truck never seemed that feasible for non-commercial use.

bunderbunder• 8 years ago

TBH, I think a lot of it is just about presenting an image.

I grew up in a rural area, and a lot of the trucks in town rarely carried anything of note in the bed, because their owners didn't want the paint to get scratched.

projektfu2• 8 years ago

I see lots of pickup trucks (which are common in urban Atlanta) slowing to 3mph before a speed bump that can easily be taken at 12 in a sedan. It's obvious that the truck can handle the bump with alacrity, but the drivers are very cautious about risking the slightest damage.

EADGBE3• 8 years ago

I don't get truck owners who don't have a bed liner. It's really a sanity saver if you're ever going to put anything in the bed (And you should, that's the whole point).

tspike• 8 years ago

Username does not check out. :-)

If you go 60 miles outside a metro area anywhere, pickups start dominating. Southern metro areas have a lot even within the city.

trustfundbaby• 8 years ago

I'm a city boy so mind the ignorance, but who is buying up all the trucks?

Visit the south and you'll have your aha moment.

mtnGoat2• 8 years ago

I live in what most would consider rural America. Most people are buying the midsized SUVs, not necessarily the full size. Once you leave the city things change... things aren't on top of each other when you leave the city, so driving a big vehicle isn't as frustrating. we have big parking lots(parking spaces are bigger and not full, making it easier to park further out), no underground parking(height isn't an issue), real estate isn't as expensive so developers leave more parking and wider driveways, etc.

I dread taking my truck into the city, but for average day to day life its much better then what id choose as a daily drive if i lived in the city full time. About the only thing a small car has an advantage on is parking and getting into and out of tight places, and MPG.

HeyLaughingBoy3• 8 years ago

Pretty much this. I live out in the country and when I mentioned to a suburban friend who owned a Yukon Denali that we were going to buy an F250 (3/4 ton full size pickup), he said, "OK, just tell her that it's hard to find a parking garage it fits in."

My wife's response was "when am I ever in a parking garage?"

Once you leave the city/suburbs, there's essentially infinite free space for vehicles, so these things cease to be issues.

matwood• 8 years ago

Once you get out of the city, people actually use those trucks. SUVs may work, but how do you think people get all the stuff home they buy at Lowes/Home Depot every weekend? I know people who drive cars, but have an old beater truck for hauling. It's just a different life style.

Personally, I prefer the room and higher ride of SUVs to sedans, but own a truck b/c no SUV is tow rated high enough to trailer my boat.

twblalock3• 8 years ago

The 4-door F-150, and the Tahoe/Yukon Denali/Escalade variants, are the modern American luxury vehicles. They aren't all that much more excessive than the giant Cadillacs and Lincolns that were the standard of American luxury until the 1970s.

gwbas1c3• 8 years ago

A 4 door truck with a cover on the bed is basically a GIANT sedan: Wide comfy back seat with lots of leg room, giant trunk, very luxurious... And handles well in snow!

notJim• 8 years ago

I have the perception that trucks are better for rough driving (dirt, potentially muddy roads.) I have no idea if this perception matches reality, and would be curious to hear if it's true. I'm always a little jealous when I see a truck tearing up a dirt road when I'm driving forest roads on the way to go hiking.

A lot of people in the country live off dirt roads or have dirt driveways that might get muddy in the rain or when snow is melting, so I imagine that could be a factor too.

mikeash13• 8 years ago

I wonder when the press will realize that there are not just three American car makers anymore.

Looking at the best selling vehicles in the US for October 2018, there’s an American sedan in the top 20, but it’s not made by the Big Three.

peferron2• 8 years ago

Japanese sedans are dead too. It'll just take a bit longer.

Sedans simply do not offer enough utility or fun per dollar to stay relevant. In France, where I'm from, sedans have been utterly dead from as long as I can remember. People just buy hatchbacks instead.

Sedans stayed alive in the USA thanks to wider roads, larger parking spots, and a persistent notion that hatchbacks are tiny cheap econoboxes that you wouldn't want to be seen in (which, to be fair, is often the case, even though there are very good hatchbacks like the VW Golf).

CUVs and SUVs have overcome this stigma and are set to accomplish what hatchbacks failed to do in the US market: kill sedans. I expect very few people to go back to buying sedans after having owned CUVs or SUVs, unless it's a somewhat niche sedan like a BMW M3, Mercedes S-Class, Tesla Model 3, etc.

decebalus12• 8 years ago

Japanese sedans are dead too. It'll just take a bit longer.
Sedans simply do not offer enough utility or fun per dollar to stay relevant. In France, where I'm from, sedans have been utterly dead from as long as I can remember. People just buy hatchbacks instead.

That's one side of the story and France is just a fraction of the market for sedans. The road configurations, parking styles, etc.. probably favors hatchbacks but that's not the case in Canada (for example) and that definitely doesn't mean that sedans will be dead.

Where I'm from, it's the same as France for reasons related to utility and fuel consumption but even so, people who wanted 'fun' went for the German large sedan or for the Japanese small but souped-up sedan.

peferron2• 8 years ago

I agree that France is not very representative of the general automobile market, but in Canada for example I would expect most households to start buying a CUV or SUV as their first car (possibly with AWD).

The point is that a classic three-box four-door sedan is not super practical as your only car, and I believe that's true for almost all markets. Americans still bought sedans because the alternatives (wagons, minivans, hatchbacks) were seen as uncool, but CUVs and SUVs don't have this problem at all.

So, yes, sedans will still exist but with a fraction of their previous market share, and in this sense sedans will be "dead" (since that's how the article uses the word).

gok3• 8 years ago

I don't think they're excluding hatchbacks/wagons/fastbacks from "sedans" in this article. They really just mean not-trucks/SUVs.

jedieaston• 8 years ago

I don’t know, things like the Accord/Civic and Corolla/Camry are very popular in the US. Very low TCO, and they are easy to get used (and cheap if you go 10-15 years old). SUVs require more gas and are more expensive than sedans that do what people need.

hakfoo• 8 years ago

Replacing sedans with wagons or hatchbacks would be reasonable, if it existed across the product line. But most of the midsize and larger wagons are unavailable.

If I have five adults/teenagers to fit, there is no hatchback/wagon option that seats them comfortably. I can either spend $30k on a minivan, $30k on a larger SUV, or $22k on an Accord/Optima/Camry size sedan. If they'd box the back of that sedan and sold it as a wagon, I'd buy it.

This also assumes that ride height is not an anti-feature. if you've got elderly or disabled passengers, they aren't hiking themselves into an SUV.

favorited• 8 years ago

Of course it doesn’t hurt that most Japanese cars sold in the U.S. are made in the American South.

And it's not just Japan. My 2 most recent "foreign" sedans, one Hyundai and another VW – were manufactured in the US.

bwanab• 8 years ago

I can't help but to believe that GM and Ford are making the same mistake they made in the early 70s and the 90s. Piling on the big cars when gas prices are low, then watch their share of the market collapse when gas prices get higher as they always have in the past.

To GM's credit they claim they'll be putting a lot of the short term savings into EVs and AVs, but time will tell.

amyjess2• 8 years ago

If I ever end up in a position where being able to drive and owning a car is feasible for me, I'm going to get a Kia Stinger GT. It tickles my fancy in a way that no other 4/5-door car below $60k does. I can't think of a single American car that even comes close, and good European cars are too expensive (I mean, I wouldn't turn down an Audi S7 if someone gave one to me... but I'd never be able to afford one either).

(of course, there is my pipe dream of importing a mid-'90s Toyota Chaser Tourer V from Japan, but I know that's a pipe dream)

SUVs are a total hard pass for me. I have a bad ankle, and when it's flaring up, there are almost no SUVs I can climb into, not even most crossovers. I have a friend with a 2018 Equinox, and getting into and out of his vehicle was physically painful. The only crossover I've been able to deal with when my ankle is acting up is my coworker's Jeep Cherokee (and from some Googling, it appears the 2WD models of the Cherokee have the lowest ground clearance of any crossover sold in the US).

Because I use Lyft all the time, I have something of an interesting perspective, because I've ridden in a much wider variety of cars than someone who just drives their own car most of the time. I've been in a lot of different sedans and SUVs, and I know what I like and what makes me extremely uncomfortable.

I tend to cancel on pickup trucks nowadays when I get one on Lyft. Even when my ankle isn't painfully flaring up, entering and especially exiting one makes my ankle feel like it's about to collapse. Crossovers aren't quite as bad, so I don't cancel on them unless my ankle is flaring up, but sedans and hatchbacks are far more comfortable.

I'm also afraid of heights, The elevated seating position in SUVs really bothers me. It's not high enough to completely induce a panic response in me, but it's high enough that I'm constantly on edge and nervous the entire time I'm in the vehicle.

The upright seating position really makes me uncomfortable. This is because A) SUV seats are elevated off the ground more than sedan seats and B) the seat bottoms are level in SUVs but tilted back in sedans. I cannot stand sitting upright. I am very uncomfortable sitting unless I'm tilted backwards, and I prefer having my legs splayed forwards instead of hanging down. When I get an SUV on Lyft, I pray it's a fully-loaded model (or a luxury brand) with a 6-way or better 8-way power adjustable passenger seat. The first thing I do when I get one of these is to lower the seat as much as possible and then if it's 8-way adjustable, I tilt the bottom of the seat all the way down. With an 8-way seat adjusted the way I want it to, it feels like riding in a sedan, but SUVs with 8-way seats are extremely expensive and I only see them on Lyft very rarely.

Also, I despise how SUVs are designed to expose valuables to thieves. Sedans have a trunk area that's not visible through any window. If you put valuables in the back of an SUV, they will get stolen because any chucklefuck can see what you have back there and perform a quick smash-and-grab. It's for this reason that unlike most other SUV-haters I'm not fond of station wagons, either. I do love me some liftbacks, though (like the aforementioned Kia Stinger GT), as liftbacks tend to have shelves that slide into place when the hatch is closed, and they serve to obscure the cargo from view (and it honestly pisses me off when someone makes a liftback that doesn't come with a shelf, because it defeats the whole point of having a liftback).

chaoticmass• 8 years ago

How is it that the cycle of cheap gas = people buy gas guzzling SUVs, gas goes up = people go back to gas sipping cars, keeps repeating? I swear in my lifetime I've seen this cycle repeat three times now.

madeuptempacct2• 8 years ago

In defense of American cars - the Corvette can't be beat for the price, period.

mobilefriendly• 8 years ago

My hard-working parents bought a new Ford during my childhood, in the 1970s. The car was a lemon that broke down a lot, they hated that car. I've never forgiven Ford either, in our extended family today there are no Ford owners and never will be.

slowmovintarget• 8 years ago

I looked at a Fusion a few years ago before deciding to buy an Accord. There was a $10K price differential in favor of the Honda. This was mainly because all American sedans at the same price point had far lower reliability scores and were much smaller cars. There were no "American" sedans other than the Fusion worth considering for reliability and non-shoebox size. The third factor was resale value.

I simply got more for my money buying the Honda. I wasn't the least bit interested in an SUV or pickup truck.

gwbas1c3• 8 years ago

It's also customer service:

I bought a Japanese vehicle that ended up being a lemon. The dealerships were generally polite to me when I brought it in for repairs.

(Against my better judgement) I bought an American plug-in hybrid that randomly stops charging. The dealership is flat out rude and constantly blames my charger. (The charger worked fine for 4 years with my old Leaf)

JKCalhoun• 8 years ago

Meanwhile, the American automakers raced to come out with their own small, fuel-efficient sedans. But their products were often shoddy, poorly designed and technologically deficient

I wonder if this wasn't intentional. That is, were there bean counters at Ford etc. that were worried that sales of the small sedans would cannibalize sales of their higher-margin autos? Seems to be the way of things in the past four decades or so....

jddaigle5• 8 years ago

It takes years to bring a new car to market. And in the early 70s the Big 3 had zero, zilch, nada in the way of platforms and powertrains suitable for small fuel efficient cars. So the first generations were built in a hurry, and to a price, because the economy was in the toilet. And it showed!

nradov3• 8 years ago

I've purchased several sedans before but will probably never buy another one. Sedans are really miserable for those of us who enjoy outdoor sports. Sure it's possible to use a sedan to transport equipment for scuba diving, cycling, kayaking, skiing, etc but other vehicle styles are far more comfortable and practical.

loph• 8 years ago

I've driven a Chevy Impala. It drove OK, but it looked and felt really cheap inside. I've owned Chrysler, Chevy, and Ford. It was the Ford product -- that I bought new -- that drove me (in many senses) to the Honda dealer.

I've bought 7 new Hondas since. Why? Every American car I had owned got at least one tow-truck ride to get repaired. The Ford had to be towed to the dealer for service _three_ times.

The Hondas have never left me stranded.

kenhwang6• 8 years ago

American sedans are dead because the Big 3 American automakers never invested in making sedans. They always borrowed tech from other companies.

Just about every Ford sedan platform and engine was built on top of Mazda or Volvo designs. It's not surprising that Ford lost access to those designs when it sold off Volvo and then Mazda.

Similarly, GM designs were from Suzuki and Opel. They've been divesting from Suzuki and Opel for a better part of a decade now. It seems like they also reached the point where they've been cut off from platforms and engines.

Chrysler luckily still has Fiat to borrow car platforms and engines from. They also have partnerships with Hyundai group. So I think they'll keep making sedans, just because they still have access to that tech.

The American sedan is being killed off because they were never American in the first place.

jddaigle5• 8 years ago

American sedans are dead because the Big 3 American automakers never invested in making sedans. They always borrowed tech from other companies.

In the 80s a lot of US-Foreign partnerships sprang up as domestic manufacturers scrambled to develop competitive products to compete against the Japanese. But GM had an ownership stake in Opel from the 1960s IIRC (they just recently sold it to the French PSA group) and Ford has been experimenting with bringing over cars designed by Ford Europe since the 80s (look up Merkur).

Chrysler is really no more; the shots are called by FIAT and aside from Jeep and Dodge trucks everything else is an import (the Jeep Renegade and the FIAT 500x are the same under the skin and are built in the same factory in Italy).

Ford made a big bet on "global cars" in the 90s, and we see the benefits of it today. The Escape and the EcoSport were both originally designed for Europe.

GM and Ford did learn to make great cars for the US market, but too late. The Impala & CT6, for example, are on a platform designed for the US/China market (no way the European market would want a car that big that isn't an S-Class, 7-series, or A8). And they're great cars. But as the original article said consumers demand for big American sedans has been in decline for almost 50 years. Ford/GM can't seem to stop skating to where the puck just was.

kenhwang6• 8 years ago

The Ford Escape might be designed for Europe, but it's still designed on top of Mazda designed platform for the Mazda6, primarily using the Duratec/EcoBoost inline-4 engine that's based off a Mazda MZR engine design. EcoSport uses a Ford designed engine, but it's still using the Mazda2 platform. Ford's been partnered with Mazda from 1974-2015 which predates and outlasted Merkur.

The Imapla is on GM's Epsilon platform, which was originally designed by Opel. CT6 is on a completely homegrown platform, which is probably why it's the last car in GM's discontinuation lineup to be discontinued.

They may have had platforms that were designed for the US market, but they weren't the designer.

mark-r2• 8 years ago

The last American sedan I owned was a 1974 Dodge Dart. Terrible car, but my sister's 1980 Dodge Aspen was much worse.

I've looked at American cars in the intervening years but I haven't seen anything to change my initial bad impression. They always seem like they're a step below in both form and function.

ksec• 8 years ago

What's the difference? Sedans are dead in America, else where Saloon lives on.

purplezooey• 8 years ago

I still like my Ford Tempo

Sedans Aren’t Dead, American Sedans Are

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