H-1B: As immigration furor roils Silicon Valley, Canada smooths way for techies

https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/10/08/h-1b-as-immigration-furor-roils-silicon-valley-canada-smoothes-way-for-techies/

by muzz • 8 years ago

304 345 8 years ago

zeroxfe2• 8 years ago

As horrible as it sounds, in this specific respect, the current US administration has been really fantastic for Canada. More and more new grads are choosing to stay in the country and work with local tech companies, and we're experiencing a reverse brain-drain like never before.

refurb4• 8 years ago

You're saying the brain drain has reversed and now there are more Americans going to Canada than vice versa?

Source?

notafraudster• 8 years ago

I believe he's making two claims:

  1. The magnitude of the Canada -> US migration flow has lowered
  2. The magnitude of the US -> Canada migration flow has raised.

I am unsure if either claim is true, but both claims can be true without the net migration flow switching signs.

puranjay2• 8 years ago

My wife ruled out a US PhD precisely because of the negative signals about getting a work visa for her or for me. Canada is welcoming her with open arms

xtacy• 8 years ago

It might be worth getting a PhD first in the US and then migrating to Canada!

b1tr0t• 8 years ago

From a Canadian viewpoint, the last couple of years of populism has been a bit like discovering your favorite Uncle has a probably lethal opiate addiction.

But, you're going to get to inherit his Corvette.

village-idiot• 8 years ago

Man, too close to home.

emptybits• 8 years ago

Canadian here also. I like your analogy. Opiates don't stop at national or socio-economic boundaries.

So a prediction I hope I'm wrong about: We temporarily enjoy driving the bully uncle's Corvette but soon find ourselves chasing the same dragon in it.

_iofi9• 8 years ago

Hi, can you please clarify this. I didn't get the context. I am planning to move to Canada and would love to get multiple view points.

gruez• 8 years ago

your favorite Uncle has a probably lethal opiate addiction.

are you talking about the crack smoking mayor?

a3n• 8 years ago

Cool, but he's not maintaining the Corvette, he's running it into the ground.

domador• 8 years ago

"we're experiencing a reverse brain-drain"

Are you Canadian? Is that what you mean by "we". (I'm just trying to understand the comment.)

screye2• 8 years ago

It has been great for European countries too.

Some of the smartest people I know, do not want to come to the US for higher education. Europe and Canada are quickly becoming the more desirable locations.

A few people that I know from FAANG tier companies have already started the Canada PR process.

I am surprised that the Canadian govt. isn't taking an initiative to try and incentivize more companies to start operations in Canada.

I can see companies saving a lot of money on wages, if they move to their offices to Canada.

echan003• 8 years ago

True story, I know of many skilled folks who moved to Canada because residency in the U.S was just too painful.

chocolatebunny• 8 years ago

For what it's worth, I know many skilled folks (myself included) who moved from Canada to the US because there are more job prospects with significantly higher pay. I hope all these people make Canada more competitive since I'd like to move back at some point but right now, the US is more cost effective if you can get in.

echan003• 8 years ago

Yes, that is also true. Its why I'm still in the Bay Area.

8f2ab37a-ed6c2• 8 years ago

Are people with GCs screwed too? I've been postponing getting a citizenship, for no particular reason, but I'm now wondering if I should get on that just so that I don't somehow get bounced out of the country or get locked outside when I travel.

echan003• 8 years ago

As a Canadian (in the Bay Area) today, getting bounced out of the U.S is always at the back of my mind.

techsupporter2• 8 years ago

A friend of mine tells me that one of his biggest regrets from the past handful of years is not having applied for and received citizenship when President Obama was president. He has a misdemeanor (for something that almost every US citizen would consider trivial) from when he was a teenager but because of when it happened and what it is, naturalizing would require a waiver from USCIS in order to proceed (and to not be deported). President Obama's USCIS granted waivers for conduct so many years back almost as a matter of course. President Trump's USCIS--according to the two immigration lawyers my friend has consulted--has not only stopped granting the waivers, they refer applicants for the waivers instead to deportation proceedings. There's no one to advocate for people like him to be able to remain because he is a convicted criminal, even just of a minor offence, so he's been told to keep his head down and hope nobody investigates the dusty files.

But, assuming you are "clean," there are people to advocate for you so applying for citizenship should be a safe bet and would get you the guarantee of remaining in and traveling to and from the US for the rest of your life. If you intend to live here for the foreseeable future, I'd recommend giving it a go lest this administration decide to start trying to arbitrarily yank GCs.

8f2ab37a-ed6c2• 8 years ago

Are there any downsides to getting one, outside of perhaps having to let go of one's other citizenships for countries that don't allow it?

fjsolwmv2• 8 years ago

Green Card has a risk of deportation that citizenship does not. But the current administration is working to make citizenship revocable.

nraynaud3• 8 years ago

They have a unit for stripping people's citizenship now.

ericd• 8 years ago

Gotta give some context or a source for a claim like that. Is the revocation related to people found guilty of terrorism/treason, or is it a lower bar? Or is it if they found you lied in order to get citizenship, as was the case historically with Nazis?

btilly3• 8 years ago

But the current administration is working to make citizenship revocable.

I firmly believe that the current administration would love to change the rules on citizenship. However the 14th amendment is extremely clear on this, and the courts have consistently ruled for decades that Congress and the President do not have the right to change the laws to strip citizenship from people. (This was extensively litigated over laws against dual citizenship.)

Therefore it is no more reasonable to fear the current administration making citizenship revocable than to fear the previous administration taking all the guns away.

calvinbhai10• 8 years ago

There have been rumors that even naturalized citizens can have their citizenship revoked (but I'm not sure how that'll happen, since it's not easy to get the citizenship of a country that one left).

Not sure why one would not get citizenship when they have GC.

kevin_thibedeau• 8 years ago

As the administration of President Donald Trump has increased scrutiny of H-1B visas

Has it? All that has been done is a study of potential H-1B reforms that is still under way. I'd bet that nothing changes in the next two years. The puppet masters wouldn't want it any other way.

neofrommatrix• 8 years ago

Unfortunately, it has. The process is now more opaque, and it’s taking longer to get an approval. The number of requests for evidence has increased by close to 40%. There seems to be a deliberate attempt to frustrate legal immigrants out of the US, or at least, it feels like it. This is anecdotal, but I personally know 4 families that threw in the towel and moved to Canada. So, yes, in terms of policy, nothing’s changed, but they have increased the overall level of frustration.

On top of that, this has scared off a lot of companies from even looking at H1-Bs while hiring.

singhrk2• 8 years ago

Second that. I am a legal immigrant. Been in US for 5+yrs. Work in a FAANG company. Have a valid work permit (h1b) till 2021. Came back to home country for stamping, now my case is in administrative processing for 4+ months. House/Job/Child Education, all impacted because of this.

arif_sohaib• 8 years ago

Ask hospitals in underserved areas. I know of one that had to reject many candidates. American doctors refuse to work in Detroit. They also refuse to work in any specialty where hours are tough.

dmode4• 8 years ago

It has. My H1 was denied, although I have worked here for 10 years, and work for a FAANG company.

diebeforei4855• 8 years ago

There has been a massive increase in RFE's. Premium processing has mostly gone away, leading to massive delays. And renewals are being denied, even for people who have gone through the PERM process for a green card.

It is fair to call this increased scrutiny.

tick_tock_tick• 8 years ago

Canada's aggressively merit based immigration policy has clear advantages in terms of allowing talent in. That said Canadian tech firms still pay way too little.

GFischer• 8 years ago

Indeed, the reason I don't consider moving to Canada is that the areas where I'd like to live are too expensive and salaries too low for the high cost of living, mostly housing (I already can't purchase a house where I live but at least I can hope to, I'd be priced out even worse in Canada).

refurb4• 8 years ago

Toronto and Vancouver housing prices aren't that much lower than the Bay area. However, it does look like the trend is downward in those two cities at the moment.

sbierwagen• 8 years ago

Some might draw a connection between Canada's open doors policy for skilled immigrants, and the low salaries paid.

mywittyname3• 8 years ago

I don't think it's the primary reason.

The Canadian tech sector doesn't make nearly as much money as their US counterpart does. The country has very few dedicated software companies, and none the caliber of the FAAMGs. For comparison, the largest software company in Canada by revenue earns $1.7B, Google is in the neighborhood of $120B a year.

Google/Microsoft/Facebook/Apple/etc are each individually orders of magnitude larger than the entire Canadian software industry combined. Chances are, that most metro areas in the US have a technology company larger than the biggest Canadian tech companies.

If Canada went from having a billion dollar tech sector to having a trillion dollar one, then salaries for engineers would explode.

mywittyname3• 8 years ago

Also timelines. I don't have first-hand experience, but the people I've talked to said they had citizenship within two years.

yhager• 8 years ago

That sounds way too short. Until a few years ago you needed to be a resident (=reside) three years before you can apply (which takes about another year). I think now it's four + application processing time.

nraynaud3• 8 years ago

I'd say also the stability and non-stupidity of their immigration laws is an advantage too. I am always correcting myself when I work with USCIS: they are not stupid and slow, they are deliberately malevolent.

otalp7• 8 years ago

I suppose my comments from yesterdays thread about "Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atmosphere" is relevant:

I did the math for Toronto(which is more expensive than Montreal, and about the same as Vancouver).

For a typical software engineer, taxes take away 25% of gross pay in Ontario while it's over 30% in California and New York. Cost of living is much less(by 30-40% if you rent) in Toronto compared to Cali/New York. Of course, you will also earn 40% less in USD. So it about evens out. The site Hired.com came to similar conclusions that I've attached in an image below [2]

To go into more detail, According to numbeo[1] which crowdsources data, groceries and restaurants are 20% cheaper(adjusted for currency) in Toronto, but of course the salary is more than 20% lower. But the real kicker is the rent, and while Toronto rent is definitely increasing, it is nowhere close to NYC of Silicon Valley levels, and most sources do say you have to pay 50% more for an equivalent apartment in NYC.

Also according to my calculations from the data on numbeo, the equivalent of (pre-tax) $135,000 USD in NYC is $110,000 CAD in Toronto. It is of course easier to get 135k in NYC than 110k in Toronto, but the difference isn't nearly as big as the CAD/USD differences and wage gap makes it seem. And if you can get a job in the Waterloo-Kitchenner area, CoL of course plummets. Freelancing for clients in the US or working remotely also has great advantages.

If you're a US citizen, I don't think Canada or Toronto is enticing enough to drag you away - especially with places like Seattle, Austin and Colorado being better than SV and NYC in terms of Salary:CoL. But if you're not, Canada is comfortably the second best company to be a software engineer in, and the expected expansion of Amazon, Google and Microsoft in Toronto is likely to create a lot more high paying jobs and new startups in the coming years, especially with the US's anti-immigration stance basically making it impossible for Indians and the Chinese to get permanent residency.

The excellent universities and industry leading research in AI of UToronto and UWaterloo is a bonus if you're a student as well.

[1]https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou....

[2] http://www.planetweb.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/img4-7ee8...

refurb4• 8 years ago

data, groceries and restaurants are 20% cheaper(adjusted for currency)

Why would you adjust for currency when you're paid in Canadian dollars?

acover• 8 years ago

They are comparing salaries in USD. Using one currency for all comparisons.

drpgq• 8 years ago

What are they referring to as data? Cell costs are pretty expensive in Canada for what you get.

pmalynin2• 8 years ago

Yes and no. For a new grad its still not hard to get an initial job offer in the excess of 200k TC in the Bay. If you're a DINK that's 400k. There are simply no jobs that a fresh grad can get paid that much in Canada. And thats not even factoring in future cash flow from working in the Bay (better prospects, prestige etc).

Also currency, it sucks. Everything is more expensive. You can't get anywhere without 1-2 stops if you're flying.

I'm finishing up my last year at University of Alberta, and there is literally nothing that will keep me here.

otalp7• 8 years ago

As someone in the big 4 I can tell you 200k TC in SV is nowhere near 200k annually starting out. That would involve 70-80k in RSU that vest over 4 years, and in companies like Amazon(whose stock has been going up like crazy) that is divested 5%, 15%, 40% and 40% annually, so you get the bulk of it only later on.\

It wasn't long ago that Google was offering 100k base in the valley(where <80k salary is considered below poverty line) and many Google and Facebook engineers still share an apartment with roommates.

If you want to maximise disposable income, you'll end up with much more at Seattle or Austin than in the bay or New York.

en4bz2• 8 years ago

This assumes you live in the highest CoL areas in the US. If you live outside of the Bay Area or NYC you take home significantly more than in Canada. In Canada you NEED to live in high CoL areas like Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal to get work.

jszymborski2• 8 years ago

Montreal is significantly cheaper to live in than either Vancouver[0] or Toronto[1]. I'm not sure what low CoL areas in the US are commanding high wages, but CoL is way lower in Montreal if you compare to places like Boulder, CO [2] or Dallas, TX,[3] which apparently have good tech scenes [4].

[0] https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...

[1] https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...

[2] https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...

[3] https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...

[4] https://www.stoodnt.com/blog/top-student-cities-in-the-us-ou...

jszymborski2• 8 years ago

Overall, I agree with your points, but I have some points of contention with some of the analysis.

I don't think it's quite fair to include tax if you're not going to include savings for things like health care.

Furthermore, Toronto's housing market, while less expensive than Cali/NY, is still insane. I know you acknowledge this in passing, but Montreal's housing market is insanely affordable, and we've a great tech/uni scene.

Immigration to Quebec, might be getting harder for non-Canadians w/ our new provincial gov't, however.

otalp7• 8 years ago

While Montreal does have very cheap(or at least non-insane) housing, jobs are harder to get and French is still a big thing as far as I understand: you need to know French well to fit in. Also the weather is more extreme. I think if you can land a good gig in Montreal and are good at learning a new language it would be the ideal place in Canada, but finding a good job is hard.

paxy3• 8 years ago

Free healthcare is a standard benefit in the tech industry in the US. Even after deductibles and with heavy use, you're going to at the most end up with a couple thousand dollars in out-of-pocket costs.

docker_up2• 8 years ago

There isn't much savings in terms of health care. In Ontario, if you're working you have to pay a health care tax that is similar to what an employee would pay at a Silicon Valley company. And then the health care is much worse in terms of responsiveness. For example, I have Kaiser, and my Canadians friends are envious at how quickly I get scheduled for procedures. My family and friends have had to wait months for some procedures or tests.

stock_toaster• 8 years ago

As a non-Canadian, what about Calgary or Edmonton?

Matthias2472• 8 years ago

Afaik taxes are rather more than in the US. If I enter the 110000 CAD into https://simpletax.ca/calculator I get a 30% tax rate. It will also get more at a higher income. Washington/US has less income tax overall, even with higher salaries.

Overall if you earn 30-40% less, you might also have that much less after taxes.

Regarding cost of living: I found the minor expenses (e.g. restaurants) to be quite a bit cheaper than in the US. However the already expensive things are expensive here too. Especially housing/rent, which is currently pretty crazy here in Vancouver. I would expect being able to buy a condo or house a lot faster in the US than here.

otalp7• 8 years ago

Seattle/Austin/Colorado are better than Canada in almost every aspect.

But, you could make an argument that with the higher tax rates, renting/house prices and living expenses of California and NYC, Canada could be a viable alternative, especially if you want to go freelance/part-time and need the healthcare, or are a non-US citizen.

sunstone• 8 years ago

Well Toronto is definitely cooler than California.

Bhilai2• 8 years ago

I can attest to this. I have three friends who are preparing to migrate to Canada or Australia. Mind you, these are not the typical H1B workers from Infosys. These are smart legitimate people with a masters degree who work at top tech companies. They have no hopes to get a permanent residency in US because of long queues. Renewing H1B is a big hassle. Surely its a big change to pick up your life up and move to a different country but its probably for the good considering the current administration's anti-immigrant stand and seemingly socially regressive and anti-science policies. This issue has been coming to a head for a while now. My friends at Apple and Microsoft tell me that the immigration woes are picking up heat internally and related questions are making an appearance at internal Q/A with senior management (Tim Cook) so it remains to be seen if tech companies would be able influence any policies.

gnufied2• 8 years ago

For first time ever I think - my Employer (again not an outsourcing firm) has started holding immigration Towh hall meetings for all employees on H1Bs. Its like getting called to principal office and you don't know why.

The fear, uncertainty and doubt is very real among all immigrants afaict.

HumanDrivenDev2• 8 years ago

I wish so badly I could trade places, as a conservative man stuck in a 'progressive' country with lower wages. Give me a great salary and Blumpffss 'regressive' US any day.

sincerely• 8 years ago

I mean...why can't you?

briandear4• 8 years ago

Why don’t they get an E2 visa which is designed for immigration for those with high skills and advanced degrees?

An H visa is a temporary, non-immigrant visa and was never intended as a path to a green card. Frustration around long queues for green cards for H visas doesn’t make any sense because that is, by its very definition, a non-immigrant visa.

Expecting permanent residency from a non-immigrant visa is no different than expecting a French tourist visa to lead to residency.

briandear4• 8 years ago

Why is this downvoted? Was anything in or untrue? H visas are temporary, non-immigrant visas.

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/employme...

bgee2• 8 years ago

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer.

E2 visa is employment-based, which means the applicant needs to be employed by the time they applies (usually through OPT or H1B).

So it's not an "either-or" situation.

Bhilai2• 8 years ago

E2 Treaty Investors visa is nonimmigrant and requires substantial capital. Source: https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-worker...

So not sure what your comment implies.

belltaco• 8 years ago

E2 visas are limited to few, mostly European countries. The people referred to in the article are from India. Also, China is backlogged in the green card queue so it's useless for them too. I don't think E2 is an immigrant visa either, anyway E2 is an investor visa, rather than founders.

An H visa is a temporary, non-immigrant visa and was never intended as a path to a green card. Frustration around long queues for green cards for H visas doesn’t make any sense because that is, by its very definition, a non-immigrant visa.

It does make sense, because currently the quota is country based. So if you're from a small country, say Cambodia, and have an advanced degee, you can get on a H1B and get a green card in about 7 months, whether 'intended' or not.

foldr• 8 years ago

The EB-2 (if that's what you were referring to) is one of the "exceptional ability" visas. The requirements are quite difficult to meet for a regular professional software engineer.

diebeforei4855• 8 years ago

was never intended as a path to a green card

Not true. Congress clearly intended this back in 2000 when it passed AC21, and the government has also recognized this through regulation.

dominotw5• 8 years ago

preparing to migrate to Canada or Australia.

I know lot of ppl who have been dreaming of this for years but money and opportunity here in US is too good to pass up. 99% of ppl on H1B are not starting companies.

Most ppl just don't have the appetite to slash their income by half. "preparing" doesn't count as a example.

3pt141595• 8 years ago

The half-of-salary thing is a bit rich. Tech people unknowingly push up their second or third sigma downside in America and cost of living is hard to compare. In America you're more likely to get violently harmed. More likely to become truly poor. More likely to develop life-long medical conditions. Don't have actuarially balanced government pension (SS accounting is off book, CPP is fully funded). Higher net-debt-to-GDP. Broken political system. It's a pretty long list of nice-to-haves up here.

If you're in the class of programmer than can half your salary by moving to Canada you're still going to be earning at the very least $120k in Toronto, and that's all that shitty. I continue to choose to live in a common wealth (in the old sense of the term) for a reason.

chrisweekly• 8 years ago

"Mind you, these are not the typical H1B workers from Infosys. These are smart legitimate people..."

That's a pretty broad brush you're smearing with there, amigo.

dmode4• 8 years ago

I am in the same boat. Planning to move to Canada next year. I have worked in the Valley for 10 years. Had a great time, but unfortunately the wait for GC is over 20 years now and the administration has signaled that we are not welcome (my H1 was denied for some BS reasons).

trhway• 8 years ago

I guess the people like you have been stealing good American jobs and depressing wages in the Bay Area, and that has been keeping the wages at the artificially low 400K :)

calvinbhai10• 8 years ago

first half starts to look like a troll comment, and it's probably too late for those down voting to realize the sarcasm which is apparent in the second half of your comment :D

JumpCrisscross• 8 years ago

Isn't compensation, even after adjusting for cost of living and health insurance, much lower in Canada than anywhere in the U.S.?

CydeWeys2• 8 years ago

That doesn't particularly matter when you can't get or retain a visa to work in the US.

Maybe salaries in those places will increase as a result.

sgroppino• 8 years ago

It will be interesting to see if this is true, or whether they will go down and the local workforce will be negatively impacted as a result. Conversely, it will be interesting to see whether salaries for US techies will go up, or older people will have more opportunities. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

briandear4• 8 years ago

Why would salaries increase? If anything, they would drop due to increased supply.

Thaxll• 8 years ago

Most people don't care about money, they want to raise family in a safe environment, I interview a lot of foreigners and there is clear trend that they don't want to go to the US with the current administration.

toomuchtodo• 8 years ago

Are the countries these workers coming from so much more unsafe than the US or Canada? Otherwise, I think people do care about the money (as they should!).

martin_iden5• 8 years ago

That sounds great, I welcome less competition on the job market. Btw I've lived in Toronto before, have a family there and know the tech scene pretty well. If people didn't care about money and job satisfaction, you would not have that many Canadians here in SV. Most of the ones I talked too would like to go back at one point, but career prospects are very bleak. One would need to take a massive paycut and face fierce competition for a few available jobs out there. I know decent engineers making 70-90K which is essentially living paycheck to paycheck.

dominotw5• 8 years ago

Most people don't care about money,

This is BS. Most ppl care about money above all else. India is a not a war zone its a "safe environment to raise family".

I interview a lot of foreigners and there is clear trend that they don't want to go to the US with the current administration.

Why are you interviewing them then? Are you in Canada?

johan_larson• 8 years ago

Yup. Last time I looked, Seattle paid twice what Toronto did. Seattle was more expensive, but only about 25%.

Canada just doesn't have the sort of top-tier companies that go head to head competing for talent that the US does. Hence, rates are lower.

zeroxfe2• 8 years ago

It's a lot lower in Canada, but simply the uncertainties of and anxieties caused by living in the US (for many of us) is unbearable.

diebeforei4855• 8 years ago

People who have spent a few years at Google, Facebook, Apple, etc would have accumulated more than enough assets[1] that the drop in real compensation is an easy tradeoff to make for massively reduced stress in life.

And a far easier citizenship process in Canada means they won't have to worry about their kids anymore.

[1] https://danluu.com/startup-tradeoffs/

woolvalley• 8 years ago

No because the cost of living is very high in Canada for it's major cities. Cities where there are jobs with decent-ish pay have high housing costs, the only exception being waterloo where houses are merely expensive. Also the cost of everything is about %20 higher. The weather is also relatively bad. Overall with the high pay in the USA, it's better to be a upper-middle class person in the USA than a upper-middle class person in Canada.

WisNorCan• 8 years ago

As more of the best engineering talent moves to Canada (or decides not to come to the US in the first place), it should: 1) increase salaries in the Bay Area in the short-term as their a shortage of engineers 2) decrease salaries in Canada in the short-term as their is a surplus of engineers

The more interesting thing to consider is whether US tech companies will begin to build out more aggressively in Canada instead of the US. Amazon HQ3 might make a lot of sense in Canada.

NTDF96• 8 years ago

More importantly, with more and more talent present in Canada, more and more startup funding will move there.

gpm• 8 years ago

By HQ3 do you mean HQ2 (the one Amazon is currently in the process for selecting a city for), or are you talking about a theoretical far future new new HQ?

toomanybeersies2• 8 years ago

Money isn't everything. Software engineers in any developed country get paid enough to live a comfortable life.

CodeSheikh2• 8 years ago

While many in the comments are throwing salary/cost of living/taxes numbers left and right but no one is making a case for extreme winters in Canada vs the Bay Area. I can understand that it might not mean a lot to some but for me it can be a deal breaker.

dubya1232• 8 years ago

Hmm yeah hard winters or having your spouse deported. Hard choice.

CodeSheikh2• 8 years ago

Yes it is a huge socio-economic issue but I was referring only to economic part of it. No one would ever want to be separated from their family.

GhostVII2• 8 years ago

I feel like the number of tech people who legitimately worry about their spouse being deported is extremely small. And it's only two years until the next election anyways.

Latteland2• 8 years ago

Vancouver is like Seattle, only a bit more rain than SF. Less fog.

donald123• 8 years ago

The issue here is people are forced to leave Bay Area or felt they are unable or not welcome to stay. So there is no free choice between the two.

otalp7• 8 years ago

Toronto is a few hours north of NYC and Vancouver a few hours north of Seattle, both don't differ in weather from their counterparts too much.

Matthias2472• 8 years ago

OTOH it might be a deal breaker for others that there is no local skiing in the bay area, no legal mountain biking, etc.

Therefore I would consider weather and environment also a bit of a personal preference thing.

masonic3• 8 years ago

  no legal mountain biking

This is ridiculously false.

lhorie4• 8 years ago

I'm born in Brazil and lived in both Toronto and SF. Honestly, the weather in Toronto is really not that bad. My wife calls it "having proper seasons". SF weather is somewhat cool all year round and you always need a sweater at dusk/dawn, whereas Toronto summer is actually hot. Also, going to the beach in Toronto is surprisingly nice - lake water is always calm (great for kids), no freezing wind and no fog.

If the problem is only winter, Vancouver's winter can hardly be called extreme, since it rarely dips below freezing point in the city.

The elephant in the room when it comes to salaries in the US-vs-Canada discussion that young people seem to not realize is that, in Canada, it's fairly trivial for a spouse to get a work visa and get a decent income even outside of the tech sector, whereas you're more or less forced to be a stay-at-home-mom family if you're planning to build a life in the US.

manicksurya• 8 years ago

is there something which all the h1b holders together can do?

paxy3• 8 years ago

Sounds accurate. There is no realistic path to citizenship or even permanent residency in the USA for highly skilled immigrants from India. While the high salaries and quality of life are attractive for someone straight out of college, you quickly realize that this isn't the place to be if you want to buy a house, start a family, or make any other major life decision when you could be asked to pack up and leave tomorrow for any or no reason.

fjsolwmv2• 8 years ago

That sounds great. Come to USA after college, make a million dollars in a few years, move back home, get married, and build the Indian economy. You don't want a country where every who has the ability will leave.

untog3• 8 years ago

It doesn't sound great for the individual, though. Standard of life in the US and Canada is higher than in India, and they'll likely want their kids to grow up in better circumstances than they did, if that's possible.

Besides, you're not going to make a million dollars in a few years. New grad salaries take a while to turn into experienced developer salaries, and the money you make from 20-30 is unlikely to last you all the way to retirement, even if you return to India.

phakding4• 8 years ago

That sounds great. Come to USA after college, make a million dollars in a few years, move back home, get married, and build the Indian economy

LOL. Your comment doesn't even pass smell taste. How many people working as developers will make million dollars in few years after paying payroll taxes? Federal, state, social security, medicare on top of paying for housing, car insurance, health insurance, renter/house owner's insurance, trips back to homeland etc etc. Forget about fun and entertainment, or clothes, shoes, phones, computers, internet etc. Even with extreme level of penny pinching, 40% rate of saving is almost unachievable.

Now assuming every single immigrant that comes here after college makes $150 right off the bat, that $60K in bank every year. At that rate, to save million dollars, one would need 16.66 years. That too assuming there are no incidentals that become money pits.

Good luck getting married at almost 40 or getting uprooted and having to adjust to the different work environment or progress in the industry without any contacts. It's not all puppys and rainbows.

tabtab4• 8 years ago

Re: "you quickly realize that this isn't the place to be if you want to buy a house, start a family, or make any other major life decision"

The reason rents are so high in California is because everybody and their dog are trying to do the same thing. There's only so much room in California. That's just the reality.

Too bad there are not incentives to create start-ups in places with relatively depressed economies, like Chicago and the Rust Belt.

saudioger• 8 years ago

I know multiple people who've even started turning down invites to visit the US (for conferences) because of the current administration... I think part of is fear of what _could_ happen under Trump even more so than what's happened so far.

gyani95• 8 years ago

The UK is an amazing place as well if you are looking for tech jobs outside of Asia.

Almost all major companies have offices her plus a decent startup scene.

otalp7• 8 years ago

It's also nearly impossible to permanently migrate to

thewarrior• 8 years ago

Why’s that ? Asking as someone on a tier 2 visa ? I thought I could get a residency in 5 years ?

Or are you saying the visa itself is too hard to get ?

mFixman• 8 years ago

You can get permanent residency after living for 5 years, and citizenship a year after that.

hocuspocus2• 8 years ago

While the tech scene is indeed very strong in some fields (like FinTech), it's also been bleeding since the Brexit vote, and the situation is certainly not going to improve any time soon.

On the other hand, I guess that might mean more opportunities for non-EU immigrants?

walshemj2• 8 years ago

That's what some of the pro Brexit mp's were saying - well actually lying - to try and get some typically labour communities to vote Brexit.

bitL2• 8 years ago

Dunno. Salary in Silicon Valley - $300k. Salary in Vancouver - $80k. Rent almost the same. Weather in Silicon Valley - year-round sunny. Weather in Vancouver - 2 months of sun, rest gloomy. Are you sure you want to move to Canada?

It used to be that MS/AMZN had a back up base in Vancouver for anyone who didn't make the cut with H1B/O-1.

MAGZine2• 8 years ago

your salary numbers seem a little off, and, at least in sf rent numbers are not the same. compare new 1bdrm apts between sf and yvr and you'll see.

amazon/microsoft just regularly employs people in YVR, not just for L1 purposes. they've been causing salaries (and rents) to rise.

anyhow, you're discounting a lot of things about Vancouver because you make a little more and the weather is a little sunnier.

bitL2• 8 years ago

I spent some time in Vancouver, I can compare. And people are extremely upset about rent hike, not sure why would anyone want to go there at the moment to be honest. The same happening in Toronto and Montreal AFAIK.

aprdm3• 8 years ago

Why are you comparing an extreme high salary in SF to an average salary in Vancouver?

closeparen• 8 years ago

$300k is a high salary but a perfectly ordinary total comp in the Bay Area (with the caveat that $100-150k of it may be illiquid for a few years).

dmode4• 8 years ago

At this point, salary stocks doesn't matter. We have made enough living in the Bay Area. I can personally weather the low salary for a few years

Jack000• 8 years ago

Vancouver rent is much cheaper than SF in absolute terms (2000 CAD vs 3750USD) - it's even cheaper if you're willing to live in the suburbs and commute. Vancouver is expensive if you make a local salary, but it's great for remote work.

http://dailyhive.com/vancouver/padmapper-average-rent-canada...

https://www.rentjungle.com/average-rent-in-san-francisco-ren...

fredophile• 8 years ago

I'm pretty sure Amazon employees in Vancouver make about the same as employees in the Seattle HQ. That might not be on par with what you'd get in SF but it wouldn't be that far off. When I moved from Vancouver to SF I went from paying ~$1000 for an apartment in East Van to paying over $2000 for a similarly sized aparment in the suburbs south of SF. Both places were comparable for size and access to Skytrain/BART for getting into downtown but the Vancouver location was a lot more convenient in general.

You're also overstating the difference in the weather. SF gets plenty of foggy, gloomy days.

jorblumesea4• 8 years ago

I wonder how much of this is just the political winds. Under the George Bush days there were similar sentiments and attitudes, but it never went anywhere and SV still remained dominant. Canada has long tried to capitalize on the US political situation with mixed results.

Salaries are low, most of Canada has poor weather and unaffordable housing prices in the major cities. I guess if you're willing to stick it out you get citizenship, but a far less valuable citizenship compared to other western countries.

I'm also curious as to if and when the immigration situation is going to hit Canadian politics as it did in the US. The facade of being pro immigration is exactly that, there are just as many racists in Canada as there are in the US.

adventured• 8 years ago

The US hands out one million green cards per year. There has not been a meaningful reduction in how much immigration is allowed into the US nor in how many green cards are issued. You'll notice something entirely missing from the article: there are no actual figures supporting its claims anywhere to be found, only a few individual anecdotes.

What's happening is Canada is trying to become more aggressive in the pursuit of tech immigrants that are tired of waiting for US citizenship. It's a sensible plan on their part, and the US can afford the loss. The US isn't suffering from a tech employee deficit, despite the propaganda out of the big tech companies that want cheaper labor. The tech giants are all generating obscene profits, and they can all afford to pay very high salaries.

Microsoft + Google + Facebook + Amazon + Intel + Apple = ~$165 billion in likely 2019 profit. Excuse me while I cry over their labor costs.

The Trump Admin + Republican Congress have barely changed anything in relation to immigration. The major immigration legislation speaks for itself: there hasn't been any. And the Democrats are about to take back to the House.

The biggest complaint you'll see, is that there's a long wait time, which illustrates the extreme demand for US citizenship, as the rate of green card issuance hasn't declined.

jorblumesea4• 8 years ago

Right, it's an optics problem. Trump gets in office and suddenly everyone starts seeing old issues in a new light. But as you pointed out, almost nothing has changed.

Ends up US citizenship is in real demand. It's also not a surprise that two of the most back logged nationalities, China and India, have the most populous countries.

lawtguy• 8 years ago

There's been no legislative change, but the the Trump administration appears to be enforcing the rules as strictly as possible. Per this article from Marketplace (https://www.marketplace.org/2018/10/05/business/recent-immig...), they've ended expedited processing of H-1Bs, they're questioning more H-1B applications and they're denying more H-1B applications. They are definitely making it as hard as possible for H-1Bs within the current rules.

pteredactyl4• 8 years ago

This is a reasonable comment. I don't understand why it is greyed out.

dmode4• 8 years ago

That's not quite true. US legislating branch gives the Executive branch significant power to "interpret" legislation and Trump admin has taken full advantage of that in order to screw legal immigrants. For reference look at the "Hire Ameican" executive order. Many of the requirements for legal immigration are intentionally vague and is left at the mercy of a exec branch leader to interpret, and that happens to be a MAGA guy. Even worse, most legal statutes are actually at the mercy of individual USCIS officers to interpret with wide latitudes. For example, a single USCIS officer determines if you have the qualification to do a job that you have been hired for. It's very arbitrary

overlords3• 8 years ago

Canada does not have "a far less valuable citizenship compared to other western countries".

It's standard of living is (size of house, consumer spending power) is better than any large country except the USA.

And the weather is not that different to Boston, Chicago, New York (for Toronto) and Seattle (for Vancouver).

Canada won't develop a racism problem because 20% of the country are already immigrants and Canada doesn't have a bible belt south (canada politics are like that of american coasts and the europeans).

jorblumesea4• 8 years ago

Canada does not have "a far less valuable citizenship compared to other western countries".

I disagree, it really does. Obviously for someone from India they don't care that much, their standards are much lower for what a "good country" means. Don't get me wrong, Canada is a nice place to live. But it's not Europe or the US.

And the weather is not that different to Boston, Chicago, New York (for Toronto) and Seattle (for Vancouver).

Those are the worst weather cities in the US. Your best weather (Vancouver) is some of our worst (Seattle)

Canada won't develop a racism problem because 20% of the country are already immigrants and Canada doesn't have a bible belt south

I've heard Canadians express pro trump sympathies, so it's pretty arrogant to think that you won't experience any blowback from immigration policies.

clubm8• 8 years ago

Canada won't develop a racism problem because 20% of the country are already immigrants and Canada doesn't have a bible belt south

You do have the prairies though and they can be as conservative as the Dakotas. (With a similar accent to boot)

For example, Calgary police officers won't be able to do marijuana off duty, despite it being explicitly legal at the federal level for all of Canada.

If you browse /r/publicfreakout you will see plenty of racist prairie meltdowns.

jim-jim-jim• 8 years ago

I live right on the coast, a stone's throw away from NYC. People here are racist as fuck. And my girlfriend was harassed in Germany and Austria for the color of her skin to such a degree that she had to cut her trip short. If the coastal US and Europe are your barometers, then Canada has a racism problem too.

I really despise this kind of regionalism because it allows real problems to be smugly swept under the rug. I don't know where you live exactly, but people there most likely aren't inherently any more righteous than people elsewhere.

aprdm3• 8 years ago

As a software engineer who wanted to leave my country I read how H-1B worked and removed US from my list of wanted countries.

I am a PR in Canada and got it after have worked here for 1 year.

I have friends who worked with me at previous company in the US division living in fear of getting their lives taken away from them if the company fires them and they are in a huge waiting list for green card (mostly Indian and Chinese) and don't want to change jobs because of fear.

calvinbhai10• 8 years ago

You took the best decision. It's not worth even a million dollars per year, if living in the US means bonded labor. The amount of stress that comes along with it is mind numbing.

mabbo2• 8 years ago

As an Amazon employee, I really hope this factors in highly in the HQ2 decision.

Toronto isn't perfect and the city sure isn't offering much in terms of tax breaks, but if Amazon wants to hire 50,000 more tech workers then they'd better be doing so in a country that will let those 50,000 people work.

jorblumesea4• 8 years ago

Most likely candidate for HQ2 is DC. Bezo just built a mansion there and he needs political cover from both sides of the aisle. His problems are mostly political now and he's a Libertarian with a capital L. Canada is too socialist and taxes are too high.

NTDF96• 8 years ago

As an Amazon employee, I really hope this factors in highly in the HQ2 decision.

Seems like a natural hedge against anti-tech, anti-modern US establishment.

hocuspocus2• 8 years ago

I always believed that Toronto is a serious contender for the same reasons.

the city sure isn't offering much in terms of tax breaks

Does it matter that much, though? As an insider you probably know better than me, but I assume that the lower cost of employment per head in Toronto would easily offset any kind of tax break.

mabbo2• 8 years ago

I tell everyone the same thing: I don't know any specific details more than anyone else. But what I do know is how Amazon operates and makes decisions: via data, not feelings.

My guess is that there are two teams. One has spent the last few years (long before the HQ2 announcement) building an incredible formula that estimates the expected return over the next 25 years for opening HQ2 in a given city, given these 100+ variables. The second team is collecting those 100+ variables for each city, maybe making analyses on cities to make better estimates on what those numbers look like.

The decision will then boil down to the city with the highest number popping out of the formula.

That's what I would expect from Amazon at least. I have no actual knowledge of what the process really is. Then again, after the Fire Phone fiasco it's clear not all of Amazon's decisions are made this way.

dilippkumar• 8 years ago

As someone who is contemplating this move, I can share some thoughts.

First, money isn’t the force that’s driving immigrants out of India and into the US, Canada etc. Among the people I know and including myself, the top driving forces are safety, good governance, clean air and water.

While living in the US has the benefit of higher pay, it comes at a significant cost. Here is a short list of things I can not do while on a H1-b visa: Make and sell art, perform for an audience, publish on a blog or a youtube channel that’s monetized, mine dogecoin, tutor students in India or any country online, trade stocks at a frequency that someone might consider “day trading” etc.

It’s true that all of these have a common theme that they all generate some sort of income. However, for most of us, the income isn’t the driving force. All of us have a drive to express ourselves creatively and do fun things once in a while (mine dogecoin), the implications of the current green card wait is that we can’t participate in any of these for decades.

Canada is very appealing because of the hassle free immigration process. Once in Canada, there is liberty to pursue hobbies. These come with benefits of safety, good governance and clean air/water.

The lower pay is a very minor price for getting all of this.

pshc• 8 years ago

re: crypto mining, that’s funny. I thought a passive activity like crypto mining is allowed as long as one doesn’t actively “work” on it. Maybe the NAFTA/USMCA rules are different?

bdcravens2• 8 years ago

Mining is one thing, selling for a profit is where I think you run afoul. (IANAL)

Scoundreller8• 8 years ago

How is crypto mining anything different than gold mining? If I invest in $$$ equipment and land to mine gold, do I only pay capital gains taxes for the value of the gold mined? Of course not.

r00fus• 8 years ago

Well, most of the US is more temperate than most of Canada. So better like the cold/snow. Given the current US administration it might be a good trade.

Of course, the great Canadian conspiracy of promoting global warming to equalize that benefit may turn the tables in a couple of decades or so... /snark

eloff2• 8 years ago

Canada is super environmentally conscious. I don't know where you get the idea from that we promote global warming, except as being a petroleum exporter (the US is a much bigger petroleum producer.) I can think of one glaring example of climate change denial among developed nations, however...

cam3ham• 8 years ago

To add to this - universal health care.

This is very important for immigrants who have families. Basically, immigrating to Canada means you have freedom, stability, and health for you and your loved ones.

loftyal• 8 years ago

I've spoken to an H1B lawyer about this, You can actually monetize your online work, just as long as the freelance company is not American. You can start up a limited company in your home country and get paid into a bank account there.

_iofi9• 8 years ago

This is bad advice. It is really risky to do this and you can be barred from US forever.

Lawyers can give bad advice, and you need to triple-check non conventional advice. I used a lawyer who is really popular with YC companies. He gave me really bad advise, none of it worked eventually and I had to leave US eventually.

Be very conservative and careful when dealing with Immigration laws. Especially with the current environment.

wenc• 8 years ago

This is incorrect and dangerous advice.

arcticbull5• 8 years ago

What matters is where you are physically located when performing the work not where the company that owns the work product is incorporated from a US immigration perspective. You should double check this with another attorney.

nostromo• 8 years ago

What the article failed to mention is that Trump and the Republican Congress have called for the US to change our immigration system to be more like Canada's. That is: focusing on skills and merit and limiting extended-family migration.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/03/trump-c...

Right now the majority of legal immigration to the US is based on having family in the US. The US has a much more expansive view of family unification than does Canada -- for example an adult in the US can sponsor their adult siblings and all of their children, spouses, and parents for citizenship -- which is not something you can do in Canada. Once citizens, all of those folks can then sponsor their extended family for family reunification migration as well.

https://prod-cdn-static.gop.com/media/images/US_vs._Canada_1...

This kind of proposal would be good for people currently on H1B that would like to become citizens. However, the cost would be far fewer extended-family reunification immigrants.

marcell• 8 years ago

I've seen this, but I'm skeptical of the approach. I don't think there is a lot of political appetite in DC to help tech companies in general. Both parties would rather use tech companies as a industry to bash, rather than an industry to nurture and grow.

Look at the bi-partisan hate for Facebook and Google. Regardless of how you feel about the privacy issues there, it is clear that neither party is particularly friendly to the needs of Silicon Valley.

While the merit based immigration idea is nice, I think it will fail for the following reasons:

- Trump is not putting his political weight behind it. It was floated as an interesting policy proposal, but he didn't put his weight behind it like he did for say tax reform, ACA repeal, etc.

- As mentioned above, neither party is especially driven to help Silicon Valley

- While it may help Silicon Valley and tech companies, this change also really hurts people who count on family based immigration to bring their loved ones into the country. I don't think it would be politically popular to cut off family based immigration to help tech companies.

I think if Trump (or Obama etc.) wanted to help the situation, the simplest path forward is through executive action. Trump (or Obama etc.) can easily change the priorities and internal policies of INS to make it easier for tech workers to come to America, within the bounds of current law.

paxy3• 8 years ago

Every administration and every congress in the last two decades has called for sweeping immigration overhaul. What they actually do remains to be seen.

ketcomp• 8 years ago

tutor students in India or any country online, I am a volunteer teacher at evidyaloka - a Bengaluru based NGO founded by two ex-techies - while working in the States! I don't know if you already know about this but thought it was worth pointing out :)

latte• 8 years ago

> Make and sell art, perform for an audience, publish on a blog or a youtube channel that’s monetized

That's weird. I cannot even imagine what the rationale for introducing these restrictions could be.

Normally, working restrictions for immigrants serve to protect the wages of the local work force, but in this case they only make the migrants' lives less fulfilling.

xtreme• 8 years ago

USCIS considers pretty much everything that results in monetary gains (other than investing) as "working". Even renting your own house counts as working, so people on H1B can't do that either.

techie1284• 8 years ago

I have 3 offers to write books. I, unfortunately, cannot do that due to the H-1B visa restriction. I have been in US legally for over a decade, making 350K+ annually. Our HH income is 700K USD. Before someone jumps in and say but why don't you apply for a EB5 greencard, it's not so simple either. It is 600K (500K + legal and other fees) of my hard earned money down the drain with ZERO certainty of a greencard for YEARS. I would rather go to Canada when my spouse cannot work here any more (H4 EAD Revocation) than to continue contributing to the US economy where people like us are not cared for.

_iofi9• 8 years ago

This was a good decision ref EB-5.

Currently, if there is any crazy possibility, USCIS will reject your petition. EB-5 will take 2-3 years and you don't know how things will be then or even if the program will be around then. USCIS will refund your fees, but you will be out lawyer fees and investment.

Move to Canada. You can start your own company in Canada. Salaries are lower and government gives back a good chunk of developer salaries to the company.

You will also get some stability in life. As you get older, it is more difficult to immigrate to other countries.

nambit2• 8 years ago

How does your wife get to 350K+ annually on an H4? That's insane.

kwoff• 8 years ago

Good luck in your move out of the US!

sumitgt2• 8 years ago

Thank you.

As the top comment on the article, you have clearly and succinctly expressed everything I have felt.

qubax• 8 years ago

First, money isn’t the force that’s driving immigrants out of India and into the US, Canada etc.

Sorry, I don't believe you. The median income in india is between $500-$1000. The media income in the US is $35000. You seriously claiming money isn't the driving force?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income

Here is a short list of things I can not do while on a H1-b visa: Make and sell art, perform for an audience, publish on a blog or a youtube channel that’s monetized, mine dogecoin, tutor students in India or any country online, trade stocks at a frequency that someone might consider “day trading” etc.

"Make and sell art"? Dogecoin? It's hard to take you seriously when this is the list you provided.

___cs____• 8 years ago

Canada/Australia have thriving scene, but somehow the number of jobs is really low.

There was a nice discussion on reddit about brain drain to Australia/Canada.

https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/comments/9l1pug/w... https://www.reddit.com/r/startups/comments/9l3ueo/which_coun...

vthallam2• 8 years ago

Usually, jobs follow. Big companies already use Canada as a bench for foreign workers who couldn't get the H1-B through lottery.

In the last couple months, I heard 2 big announcements, Microsoft establishing their Canada HQ[0] in Toronto, Uber [1] is investing big time.

[0] https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2018/09/11/microsoft-canadian-...

[1] https://techvibes.com/2018/09/13/uber-expands-canadian-prese...

[2] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-24/toronto-b...

qaq2• 8 years ago

Yep my friend in Ukraine got an offer from one of US tech giants the process is if they can't secure H1B they just move people to Canada.

toomanybeersies2• 8 years ago

I can't comment on the tech scene in Melbourne, as I don't really participate in it outside of work, but there are plenty of jobs here.

It took me less than 2 weeks to find a job as a Ruby on Rails developer here in Melbourne.

The comments bagging on Australia seem like the classic self-denigrating comments that Aussies love to make about themselves.

adriand• 8 years ago

'Toronto’s tech scene is so hot the city created more jobs than the San Francisco Bay area, Seattle and Washington, D.C., combined last year, while leapfrogging New York in a ranking of “talent markets."'

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-24/toronto-b...

jpatokal2• 8 years ago

You won't have any trouble finding IT jobs in the big cities. But ironically enough, the difficulty of getting a visa in Australia has also been ratcheted up recently, meaning that many employers who would love to hire can't sponsor the visa...

NTDF96• 8 years ago

I don't think US realizes that Canada and Australia are actively poaching talent. These guys work there for a couple of years, some of them start startups, businesses. They hire other top people (both local and talented immigrants). Then they sell their products/services to the whole world!

Major companies get attracted to areas with talent. That's why so so many companies have major offices in India now. Because of the pool of talent. Not just because of cost-cutting.

An example is: If Amazon doesn't hire enough smart people, they won't be able to expand/move nimbly and will get beaten by Flipkart in India (who have their own empire desires).

hosh• 8 years ago

Hmm. And let's see. One of the world's top research for AI is in Canada ...

screye2• 8 years ago

Yep, Montreal is slowly becoming an AI hub.

Microsoft has already opened their AI research branch in Montreal. Google Brain is in Montreal too.

I can see it becoming a more popular spot as time goes on.

olivierlacan• 8 years ago

I'm curious if anybody here has quality data for USCIS' processing speed on H-1B and other work-based immigration visas. USCIS provides [aggregate statistics for previous years and quarters](https://www.uscis.gov/tools/reports-studies/immigration-form...) but it's very difficult to isolate that data to a specific form type (for example I-129 for H-1B).

Common known resources like http://visadoor.com and https://www.visajourney.com/content/times/ have incredibly low quality, out of date, or just plain insufficient to get any idea for:

- how many I-129 forms were received and processed by each of the USCIS service centers (California, Nebraska, Vermont) that handle them?

- how many of those forms already resulted in denials, approvals, or requests for evidence?

- what is the throughput of each USCIS service centers?

Does anyone know where such information is available from a public or private source?

It seems clear that the California service center is completely overwhelmed this year with an ever-growing processing window (from the date of receipt notice, not even the date of first submission to USCIS) that has now reached 6.5 to 8.5 months to process I-129 petitions for a Nonimmigrant Worker (see https://egov.uscis.gov/processing-times/).

This means that if an H-1B petitioner received an offer from a U.S.-based company, applied with said company in early April 2018, got through the 1 in 5 lottery odds and received notice from USCIS a few weeks later in May 2018, it's very likely they won't be able to start working until November or January 2019. Nearly a full year after initiating the process with their prospective employer. Assuming said employer was able to hold the position open for a full year.

I'm of course ignoring the time it would take after receiving USCIS approval for the I-129/H-1B petition to schedule an embassy interview in one's home country, send the passeport for visa stamping, and relocate to the U.S. Which could easily add another month to the ordeal.

Comparatively the Nebraska service center has a processing window of 2 to 4 months, and the Vermont service center 4 to 6 months but I suspect these centers can only handle a fraction of the cases the California service center can. I've seen mentions on Twitter of case transfers from one service center to another but nothing USCIS announced publicly, meaning there is no way for a petitioner to know where their case is actually being processed.

More importantly, it's virtually impossible to tell wether how deep someone is in the processing queue, which could lead someone to withdraw and apply to another work visa (like O-1). Let's not even talk about the case where one would consider a new employer while in the U.S. under an existing H-1B since the processing time appear to be just as lengthy. USCIS has also proudly canceled its usual premium processing fees for the stated purpose of "resorbing the backlog" (so far, unsuccessfully) until at least January 2019 which means even if your company needs you to start earlier and is willing to pay the price to expedite the process, they can't. So not only are you stuck waiting to work with a prospective employer for upwards of a year (or more) but then it will take (an already approved nonimmigrant worker) another 6.5 to 8.9 months (or more) to be able to start working at another company.

People throw around phrases like "indentured servitude" far too easily for my taste, but just imagine having to wait a year to start a new job you've already applied to and signed an offer for, losing opportunities for raises, experience, networking, and advancement in the process. All the while knowing that you'll be essentially stuck in the job unless you're lucky enough to find another company willing to sponsor you again, wait for the lengthy transfer, and hopefully not be let go by your current employer (and unique provider of the right to remain in the country) in the meantime.

throwaway82729• 8 years ago

This is exactly what I posted a while back about my situation - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17938307. I turn down VP Eng roles almost every day and internally cry every time I do it. I also know that I won't get these opportunities, to work on cutting edge technology with great peers, in other places.

csomar2• 8 years ago

Is it really true, however? Or my experience is an outlier? I have been issued a 10 year tourism/business visa to the USA. The interviewer asked me a couple questions and then said "Your visa is approved". She didn't ask for any paper work. No kidding. I got the interview booked, interview and the visa/passport in the same week. The process was flawless and the employees very friendly.

I know a few others in my social circle who setup shop in the US when they wanted to move there. None of them complained about the "waiting time" but there were complaints about the costs and legal expenses to process visas/green cards.

So is it really that bad in the US? Because as far as it is now for me this is way better than Europe. Also no other country has a green card lottery where they arbitrarily give 55k random citizens a Green Card. I have been applying to the Green Card lottery for around 10 years. I almost thought this will be their rejection reason for my visa.

I think the US gets lots of hate but so far is the best country of the bunch. I might be wrong but will be doing more business and lots of travel to the US so it will either confirm my bias or reverse it.

otto2• 8 years ago

Your visa is essentially a visitor visa. You are not authorized to work in USA - you can visit for business while being paid by foreign entity.

It is very different from H1B visa that is tied to a specific employer.

h1srf• 8 years ago

And on a tourist visa, you are not supposed to be looking for a job.

csomar2• 8 years ago

I understand that. But my point is that the process was way easier, faster and better than most European countries, Canada or the UK. For the same type of visa.

nafizh• 8 years ago

It is really bad for Indian and Chinese citizens. I guess you are not one of them. Also H1B visa is a different thing. A tourism/business visa is not a difficult thing to get.

_iofi9• 8 years ago

I just moved out of US and in process of moving to Canada. Just for background: Worked in leadership roles for startups and Fortune 15 companies, sold a company, advise/invest in bunch of startups.

My life's goal is contribute to curing/diagnosing terminal disease using technology. Everything I did in the past 14 years has been towards meeting that goal. I figured, I would need knowledge, network, and financial stability. I moved to US in 2011 and over 14 years I achieved all of these. However, after moving to US I realized that I lost the most critical piece: ability to work on this goal without significant restrictions.

Visas like H1/O1 have lot of restrictions on what you can work. Recently it has become extremely difficult for early stage startups to get H1, especially if the applicant owns significant equity.

Once you get invested and comfortable in a place, you stay put. I worked really hard to break this ceiling. I tried for EB-1 Green Card twice and got rejected both times. You need 3 out of 10 criteria for Green Card. Over 2 petitions and an appeal - separate USCIS officials gave me 4 criteria. But none of them gave me 3, and their responses were very hostile.

I had to deal with H1/O1 petition every year while I pursued my entrepreneurship goals. However, I am finally done with this and can't do it anymore. I think I also have PTSD because of my experience dealing with immigration. I could not work to my potential, missed family events because I couldn't travel and stayed in limbo for too long.

However, finally I have moved out of US. I want to pursue my goal to attack terminal disease without any employment restrictions. At this point, Canada seems like the best place for this and that is where I am moving.

I am originally from India, and as mentioned in a few other posts, I do not want to live there because of quality of life challenges.

I will write more detailed posts sometime next year detailing my experience. However in summary my advise is:

If you are from India, come to US only if you internalize that you are in a temporary situation with a set goal: make more money/learn/build network. Don't get too invested, because you might need to leave at short notice. If you are an entrepreneur, you would be spending the best years of your life, without being able to perform to your potential due to immigration related bureaucracy. India, currently, has great opportunities for Entrepreneurs.

I was lucky to be able to found a company on H1, sell it and work at a few great companies. Still it wasn't enough to make it here.

ssivark• 8 years ago

My life's goal is contribute to curing/diagnosing Cancer using technology. Everything I did in the past 14 years has been towards meeting that goal. I figured, I would need knowledge, network, and financial stability [...]

As someone who's fresh into the technology industry after grad school, it would be great to get your perspective regarding planning and executing on a long-term vision in such a manner. I'm sure a lot of other people would too. Replying here since I couldn't find any contact details on your HN profile--in case you would like questions to initiate thought on the topic, I'd love to participate in a conversation. Looking forward to hearing from you either ways!

_iofi9• 8 years ago

My approach is usually as follows:

1. Identify a real person in whose position I would want to be 10 years from now.

2. Figure out the path from that person to my current situation. Usually this involves figuring out filling missing gaps along multiple dimensions: e.g. knowledge, connections, financial situation.

3. Create 5 year and 2 year checkpoints/goals on each of the dimensions.

4. Break 2 year plan into monthly goals.

5. Execute, learn, critically analyze every quarter. Brutally prioritize.

6. If there is a learning which requires major change in plan, start again from step 1.

I think the most important part was step 1. Rest is execution. It is also important to align your goal with something that you are passionate about. You would need passion to drive you towards your goal.

I put some of the thoughts on company building at [redacted] during sleepless nights with our baby. I will put more thoughts, especially around immigration sometime next year.

sizzle• 8 years ago

Just wanted to thank you for pursuing such a noble cause. We need more people like you putting their time, energy, resources, and brains towards solving real hard problems in society, such as access to affordable (mental) healthcare, affordable housing, climate change, and ethical ML/AI systems.

Keep up the good fight friend, you'll be an asset to any country lucky enough to call you their citizen.

_iofi9• 8 years ago

Thanks, for the wishes :)

Need to fix the final missing piece: Find a place to call home. Once that is done, will work for the next 20 years attacking terminal disease!

techie1284• 8 years ago

I tried for EB-1 Green Card twice and got rejected both times. You need 3 out of 10 criteria for Green Card. Over 2 petitions and an appeal - separate USCIS officials gave me 4 criteria. But none of them gave me 3, and their responses were very hostile.

I don't really understand. Do you mean to say that the USCIS officer wanted you to meet 4 criteria while the rules specify 3? Did you take them to court over it?

If you already were on O-1 visa, it should've been easy to qualify for EB-1 GC. The criteria is pretty similar for both. Did you try a different law firm? What criteria specifically did you not meet?

jvzr• 8 years ago

I understand it like so: (not a native speaker myself)

individually, they both give 2 criteria. Together, they would give 4. (So, say, the 1st one gives criteria #1 and #2, and the second #3 and #4)

_iofi9• 8 years ago

I had an O-1 visa. Still my EB-1 was rejected - twice!

First time then gave me 2 criteria (contribution to field of work and contribution to companies). On Appeal, AAO gave me another criteria (high compensation) and took away 1 already given (contribution to field of work).

Second time, my application was much stronger - but they gave me just one criteria (press).

I didn't take them to court over it. Didn't want to deal with that.

I will try a different firm next time.

calvinbhai10• 8 years ago

I'm so happy for you that you are able to do this transition.

I used to envy EB1s a lot (I'm from India, lived here in US for a good amount of time), then got to know what a hassle it is to go through the process, even after an I-140 is approved, until they get a GC. With current processing delays for the associated renewals (adjustment of status and h1b)often, the EB1 applicant (and the family) cannot travel out of the US for most of the year. Being immigrants, this puts a lot of stress on you and your family.

Since you were good for EB1, and are in research field, I hope there's enough research funding/activity in Canada in the field you specialize in. I know a few post docs who are too tired to go through the EB1 process in the US, while they have no funding for their research in Canada!

jiveturkey• 8 years ago

https://outline.com/a3szHf

hourislate• 8 years ago

This is going to be unpopular but Canadian Ex pat here,

If you're ok with making 1/3 the money you'd make in the US, have 1/10th the opportunity, put up with really expensive living conditions and really awful weather, Canada is the place for you....

I left and never looked back. It just doesn't make any sense to even consider returning. Many of my friends have fled to the US because of the incredibly high taxes, sub standard medical care, high cost of living, etc for NYC, DFW, CA, NC, etc.

For H1B types coming from a 3rd world country it would probably feel like heaven but for regular folks the statistics prove otherwise, Canadians are leaving or would like to leave to work in the USA.

Just saying...

pteredactyl4• 8 years ago

I generally believe we should try harder to educate and hire Americans.

I am not against immigrants or H1B holders. Or anyone trying to improve their lot in life.

I am against the position H1B holders are in. And the effects it can have on a culture. Especially with the force multiplier of technology.

They are basically indentured servants. And therefore more likely to do whatever their boss wants, including morally suspect things. Like buy and sell American's privacy. Speak out or resist? You'll need to on a plane out of the country in 6 days.

I'm not saying this is a product of a particular race/ethnicity/identity. The moral suspectness. But rather the product of the position. Most everyone in that position would behave in similar ways to keep their position. Sometimes at all cost. Don't get it twisted.

So to me, the reasonable options are to either cut back on the program, or give H1B holders more rights.

tabtab4• 8 years ago

Companies don't want to train: they want Instant Workers. Often they want combinations of skills that are unlikely to be had by any one individual. They want version X of the database, vendor Y of the IDE, vendor Z of the network, etc. Shopping the world increases the chances of fitting their desired skill combo via shere probability; it has almost nothing to do with training. Think about it.

pteredactyl4• 8 years ago

I agree. And for the companies it makes sense to not want to train. I'm saying the onus is not on them. But on the US education system. K-12 and beyond.

t1o52• 8 years ago

This news has to be taken with a pinch of salt. Not everyone moves to Canada after they get a residency thru the Express Entry system. The majority of them do something called "soft landing" to activate their permanent resident card and go back to US the same day. They use Canada as a plan B if something happens with their greencard process in future. This is actually detrimental for other eligible people who have applied for express entry because H1Bs fill the top layers of the express entry system and thus the permanent residence permits go wasted because H1Bs don't come to stay in Canada.

Québec is an exception here and do not follow merit based system. So the immigrants coming in Québec are not skilled or employable and is a burden to Canadians. On the other hand, skilled applicants in Québec are waiting 4-5 years for a permit from Québec because Quebec do not follow merit system. The new CAQ leader is also against immigration and has vowed to cut down immigration. So any startups planning to have an office should be aware of this. Québec IT employers are struggling to find talents because of the dysfunctional immigration department of Québec.

Now the highly regarded global talent stream is only applicable to large employers.

Startups still have to go the hard way. Getting an LMIA work permit will take 3-6 months and renewing it will also take the same amount of time.

Overall, Canada's Express Entry system is a merit based system. But the candidates do not need to prove their technical skills. Anyone with a Bachleor's degree, a good command of English and 3 years of work experience can get a residency in Canada. This doesn't necessarily mean there is talent. Moreover, a talented international worker might travel to many countries, so if you are an applicant who have travelled to many countries, 6 months express entry time do not apply, Canada will put you thru something called Security Screening which can last 1 to 2 years.

So the 6 months timeline are for people who haven't travelled a lot or worked at many countries. It's just for a less experienced Bachelor degree holder with a good command of English. Do not come to Canada for the money, salaries are not that great. Toronto and Vancouver housing prices are pumped up thanks to Quebec's money for citizenship scheme. Québec immigration is dysfunctional, so good luck finding talents in Montreal for your startup.

Scoundreller8• 8 years ago

The majority of them do something called "soft landing" to activate their permanent resident card and go back to US the same day. They use Canada as a plan B if something happens with their greencard process in future.

This only buys a maximum of 3 years of insurance (from date of landing). After that, unless you're living with a Canadian citizen spouse, you'll lose PR unless you move to Canada.

calvinbhai10• 8 years ago

I'm in my 30's, spent > 1/3rd of my life in the US. Got a Masters degree before Obama was elected. Slogged enough, made enough personal sacrifices to achieve what I have.

An employer who hired me based on a promise of EB greencard. Employer screwed me at last moment by giving a lame excuse as to why the GC process stalled.

In the mean time, had saved up enough to put 20% down on a 500K+ home in N.E. US. Had almost paid the booking fee. But wife's employer started giving the deaf ear treatment when following up on the GC.

Now, we are all set to move to Canada in a month or two. Once we find jobs for our respective fields (both are in good, in-demand tech jobs) we'll say good bye to years of bonded labor and living in uncertainty.

So we will finally buy a house in a country which we can call home, without ever thinking of being 'hopeless 3rd class residents of a country with no hopes of citizenship'.

(I hope the Americans who can vote, will work towards fixing this system)

digianarchist3• 8 years ago

In Canada you’ll likely have citizenship in 3-4 years. It’s very straight forward.

calvinbhai10• 8 years ago

very true. That's the icing on the cake. After 4 years, no one in the family needs to bother about visa, visa interview, stamping, stamp expiry, renewal of visa and a zillion other things.

arcticbull5• 8 years ago

I'm in a similar spot, late 20s, spent the better part of a decade in the US. I'm back for a couple more years on a TN but recently I went from wanting a green card to wanting to go back home to Canada. The plan right now, subject to change, is to do one more tour of duty here, save up, network, invest, then pack it on up and start a company when I get back. In the process of buying property in Canada.

Latteland2• 8 years ago

I am an american, and I'm sick about what is happening. We are going to see a real brain drain. In the top end tech market at least, there's a massive shortage of people who can do bespoke software. Seattle has endless job opportunities.

calvinbhai10• 8 years ago

Toronto/Vancouver will become extremely attractive for those wanting to come up with startups, even for VCs to invest due to massive influx of high skilled immigrants, with valuable knowledge from US work experience.

nimbius• 8 years ago

glad to see tech workers are getting the same benefit we've had in the skilled trade industty for nearly 40 years.

I'm a master level certified diesel mechanic, and the immigration group I qualify for is nearly instantaneous as well. Saskatoon province mining jobs pay about 4x what i make currently in the states.

If you're a long haul truck driver, welder, pipefitter or plumber, the biggest hurtle to getting into canada is picking which canadian beer you like to drink after a days work.

sublupo2• 8 years ago

This sounds weird but I've wondered something. Since California is a sanctuary state, can't workers come over with H1B and then simply not leave when the Visa expires?

_iofi9• 8 years ago

I would not recommend this.

Couple of issues:

1. You might want to visit your family in home country. How do you enter back.

2. CBP can put a border check point anywhere 100 miles from a border. Which covers most of California (land and sea border) including SF. If you get caught in one, your would be arrested and deported.

3. If you overstay for more than 6 months you are banned from US for 3 years. If you overstay for more than 1 year, you are banned from entering US for 10 years.

4. Government knows that you are overstaying. They can also easily find out about your bank accounts, health insurance, doctor visits, kids going to school. They could apprehend you if they want to. It could start by sending you a NTA (Notice to Appear). Once you get an NTA, you can't even leave the country on your own terms without triggering a re-entry bar.

5. Most good employers won't give you a job without a work authorization.

Sadly, what you had suggested has been the life story of all the undocumented workers in US. And it is really tough. I know H1-B has it bad, but it is nothing compared to what the undocumented workers have been going through. When you live in the shadows and under fear of law enforcement for a big part of your life, it can mess up with your mental health. I wish there is a good outcome for them.

Unfortunately the low skilled undocumented workers don't have much options in life. But I am not sure why someone who is educated and skilled, would subject themselves to such a life. Just go somewhere else!

sublupo2• 8 years ago

Thank you for that information

dragonwriter• 8 years ago

Since California is a sanctuary state, can't workers come over with H1B and then simply not leave when the Visa expires?

No.

“Sanctuary state” means state resources (including state personnel time) aren't being used to actively aid federal immigration authorities, it doesn't mean federal immigration laws are nullified or that you won't be deported out face other federal law consequences in the case you describe.

madmax108• 8 years ago

One of my friends recently got his Permanent Residency from Canada for a job he has just gotten there.

What is the difference between a PR and citizenship? Is there any difference in what the country owes the individual or vice versa in either?

to_bpr• 8 years ago

You can't vote in Canada unless you've citizenship. You've to be physically present in Canada 3 years of every five to retain PR, not so with citizenship.

mitul_45• 8 years ago

I'm an Indian living in Amsterdam just because of these immigration rules.

My spouse is an Architect and she won't be able to work in the US due to H4 rules and in Canada because they don't accept the academic credentials for her foreign university. I find Europe a little better option in that regard.

known• 8 years ago

Since India is the most racist country in the world many qualified/talented people are leaving it.

https://businesstech.co.za/news/lifestyle/116644/the-most-ra...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2325502/Map-shows-wo...

H-1B: As immigration furor roils Silicon Valley, Canada smooths way for techies

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