On Campuses Far From China, Still Under Beijing’s Watchful Eye

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/04/us/chinese-students-western-campuses-china-influence.html

by terri_cat • 9 years ago

209 155 9 years ago

nytimes.com

rubatuga4• 9 years ago

Seems like a war of culture vs. culture, who will win?

kevin_thibedeau• 9 years ago

The one with the money.

rch• 9 years ago

More specifically, the reserve currency.

Gustomaximus2• 9 years ago

Money is a variable but to list it alone feels a tad glib. Factors like ideology, corruption, political altruism, perceived and actual opportunity within nation, social justice etc are all extremely significant and can outweigh money when they are obviously unbalanced from expectations.

abrowne• 9 years ago

This link is a Readability-style view of https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/04/us/chinese-students-weste...

It looks good, but it's a not good canonical link for sharing.

Gustomaximus2• 9 years ago

And China's government have also bought nearly all Chinese language press in Australia:

http://www.smh.com.au/national/chinese-language-newspapers-i...

And actively entering into mainstream media:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-03/birtles-australian-med...

mistermann9• 9 years ago

Good idea for a startup if it's a near guaranteed buyout.

ganfortran• 9 years ago

TIL that pro China talk is against freedom of speech, how ironic.

hiddencost• 9 years ago

"freedom of speech" refers to specific legal principles related to what kinds of reprisals the US federal government can take against you for speech (fun fact: there are types of speech which can send you to jail [0]). It has nothing to do with what kinds of actions society can take against you, or private citizens, or private institutions.

This is an article about astroturfing.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exce...

gruez• 9 years ago

"freedom of speech" refers to specific legal principles related to what kinds of reprisals the US federal government can take against you for speech

Legally yes, but colloquially it includes non-governmental actions[1].

[1] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/freedom_of_speech

gogopuppygogo• 9 years ago

China is buying influence Globally as the United States and Europe cede soft power after years of war in the middle east.

While not fantastic for rights of freedom loving people everywhere it is probably a good thing for Africans in general since they seem to be getting a lot of economic love from China in exchange for mineral rights.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/03/africa/what-africans-really-th...

api2• 9 years ago

War in the middle east is ruining the West. I don't understand it and I don't buy the oil explanation. With the absurd cost of these wars we could just buy the oil, or pay for megaprojects to replace it with gas (even gas to liquids), nuclear, and renewable power. There seems to be no rational explanation for the immense gravity well of Middle Eastern war and how it drags in Democrats and Republicans alike even if they seem initially opposed to it.

I also don't buy the religious or Israel explanation, as neither of these groups have that much influence. The need to constantly involve ourselves in the Middle East seems like an imperative that supercedes all other concerns.

I wasn't a fan of Trump and did not vote for him, but I did have a little bit of hope that at the very least he might be against these wars on "America first" grounds. Looks like the answer is no as his administration is slowly taken over by the war party.

It's almost like when presidents are elected they learn something nobody else knows.

HarryHirsch3• 9 years ago

War in the middle east is ruining the West. I don't understand it and I don't buy the oil explanation

The conspiracy theory is that the war serves to dislodge the population and increase refugee flows to Europe to destabilize the region economically and politically. The war in the Middle East is in truth a war against the European Union, especially Germany. So the story goes.

alva3• 9 years ago

War in the middle east is ruining the West. I don't understand it and I don't buy the oil explanation.

It is quite confusing. So many innocent lives lost, governments toppled, Western Gov. organised coups and plots and massive amounts of money.

The explanation for these actions could be quite simple once the rest is stripped away - Having essentially territorial control and military bases in the ME is extremely strategically advantageous. Control over territory (occupied or friendly regime inserted) is a tenant of power throughout history.

erikpukinskis3• 9 years ago

My feeling (and I realize this is little more than a feeling) is that corporations need there to be pockets of instability, both globally and domestically, to create a baseline of anxiety which makes people afraid to challenge the status quo. This keeps wages down, prevents people from starting new businesses, discourages people from trying for for higher level positions, etc.

In other words, some light distant instability helps those in top stay there longer.

mordant• 9 years ago

I also don't buy the religious or Israel explanation, as neither of these groups have that much influence.

Um, Israel has yuge political influence in the US - successful secular Jews in the financial and entertainment fields donate large amounts of money to politicians. Their political sentiments are overwhelmingly Democrat, but they donate to Republicans, as well.

Search for 'AIPAC'.

nostrademons• 9 years ago

It could simply be bureaucratic imperative. 26 years of war in the Mideast has created a whole generation of policy wonks whose expertise is the Middle East; if we cease to be at war in the Middle East, then all of their jobs are on the chopping block and all of their expertise is useless; therefore, they have a very strong self-preservation incentive to recommend policies that continue the war in the Middle East.

mcphage• 9 years ago

It's almost like when presidents are elected they learn something nobody else knows.

I should hope so! Otherwise what do we spend billions on intelligence organizations for?

pessimizer• 9 years ago

I don't think the answer is any deeper than that wars involve spending an enormous amount of money on contractors, and those contractors in turn fund politicians who will drive more business in their directions, then supply then with output from thinktanks that they fund to justify those decisions to their peers and the public, and ex-employees to hire into the bureaucracy. This, they do in a completely bipartisan manner, so their papers and bureaucrats are installed permanently, not turned over between administrations.

It's not a single-minded conspiracy with some deep reason. It's just basic economic incentives. There's nobody in the US who will make money from not attacking the middle east, and plenty that would. Policy in the US is determined by financial interest.

killjoywashere• 9 years ago

There's a few threads going on there, and it's too much for a Hacker News comment. There are entire university departments dedicated to this subject. I will offer some references for interested readers.

== Geography ==

Strategic control of the straits of Hormuz, the Suez Canal, and the Bosphorus, and Bab-el-Mandeb drive a huge number of commercial alliances.

== Israel ==

I separate this out from religion (below), because Israel's origin story is more than the sum of its parts. Read up on the the history of Zionism (1), Herzl (2), Weizmann (3), the Balfour Declaration (4), etc. I especially recommend Prof. Ruderman's Great Courses lectures on Jewish Intellectual History (5).

(1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

(2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor_Herzl

(3) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaim_Weizmann

(4) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration

(5) http://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/jewish-intellectual-h...

== Population ==

Compare the population pyramids of the Middle East (1), Western Europe (2), and the US (3). You'll see a lot of young, unemployed workers in the Middle East. They live in dictatorships, which are often supported by foreign aid from Western democracies, traditionally considered a good investment in stability and UN security council votes, although certainly given to the dictators at the expense of the local population's human rights. Thus these angry young men have some grounds for pointing their anger at the West (4).

(1) http://regionalgeography.org/101blog/?p=1830

(2) http://www.indexmundi.com/european_union/age_structure.html

(3) http://www.populationpyramid.net/united-states-of-america/20...

(4) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005GPSLHI/

== US-Russia-China proxies ==

Syria, Afghanistan (twice now), Iraq (three times including the Iran-Iraq war), Vietnam, Korea, Tibet, Taiwan: all proxy fights. The Russians want buffer states between them and Western Europe (which has been known to invade from time to time). China wants fealty from the satellite states that have from time to time expressed more or less fealty throughout history. China has also recently (last 20-30 years) realized that African markets are under-capitalized and under-exploited, and they are fixing that. This affects North Africa and East Africa too (Muslim nations), not just Central and West Africa.

== Religion ==

Judaism, Christianity, and Islam really do have some friction in their holy texts, both historical and dogmatic, that make the mixing pot of Palestine something less than a beacon of peace in the world. I'll refer you again to the Great Courses: Confucius, Buddha, Jesus, and Muhammad (1).

(1) http://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/confucius-buddha-jesu...

paulmd• 9 years ago

Israel's been doing this for a long time. Try inviting pro-Palestinian activists to campus and see what happens.

At the end of the day, everyone has the right to protest, whether that's Black Lives Matter or the Westboro Baptist Church or any other group. Always distressing to see it used to further what I see as oppression but there's not really a whole lot to be done about it. You get your opinions and I get mine.

If people want to miss their kids' graduation, well, kinda sucks to be them I guess. Not everybody agrees with their graduation speaker, but you choose to make it political instead of being, you know, about your kids' achievements. I had friends who had George W Bush speak at their graduations, in 2008 no less.

Suck it up for 15 minutes, nobody is forcing you to march in support of some college graduation speaker.

Cyph0n5• 9 years ago

There's a very interesting investigative documentary by Al Jazeera that shows how Israel funds and manages the Israeli lobby in the UK. I'll look for the link and edit this comment.

Edit: Here is a link to part 1 of the series: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceCOhdgRBoc. You can follow the "Up next" link to watch the other parts; there are 4 parts in total.

voodooranger• 9 years ago

Not sure that the mouthpiece of the ruling family of Qatar is a reputable source for anything, much less any topic involving Israel.

maverick_iceman2• 9 years ago

Try inviting pro-Israel supporters and see what a stink BDS and the general leftist students make. [1]

[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/students-are-shoutin...

blackguardx2• 9 years ago

Pro-Israel in what sense? Believing that Israel shouldn't exist is an extreme opinion that isn't widely shared in the western world. The debate is about a homeland for Palestinians.

maxxxxx• 9 years ago

"Suck it up for 15 minutes, nobody is forcing you to march in support of some college graduation speaker. "

As far as I know these speakers make big bucks. If they spoke for free it would be easier to ignore them.

rubatuga4• 9 years ago

If all we can do is feel distressed and lie down, then we are simply enabling the opposition. Apathy is quite cancerous.

brandonmenc• 9 years ago

Israel's been doing this for a long time. Try inviting pro-Palestinian activists to campus and see what happens.

Having spent some time on college campuses recently, the exact opposite is the case.

baursak• 9 years ago

Israel is a very special case in American political life, compared to any other country. Even UK and Canada are not anywhere near close to the level of influence Israel has over US politics.

There was an insightful article drawing parallels between ongoing hysteria over possible Russia's influence in the election and Israel's ho-hum business as usual that nobody dares question: https://consortiumnews.com/2017/04/20/why-not-a-probe-of-isr...

wbl• 9 years ago

Nothing. I was involved in hosting a debate between two Palestinians about one state vs two state and nothing happened.

WillPostForFood2• 9 years ago

inviting pro-Palestinian activists to campus

Why invite pro-Palestinian activists to campus when you can just walk to the faculty lounge?

it_learnses5• 9 years ago

I wish we could somehow curb Chinese immigration and trade here in Canada. Our government seems to be bending over backwards for them.

prklmn• 9 years ago

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-12-04/vancouver...

msie3• 9 years ago

I wish we could somehow make people less ignorant and more tolerant here in Canada. People are always blaming immigrants for their problems.

HarryHirsch3• 9 years ago

Rising housing prices in Vancouver are a valid concern. I don't understand why the grandparent is downvoted. You don't combat racism by not recognizing valid grievances.

it_learnses5• 9 years ago

I'm ok with immigrants from certain other countries. Also I'm referring to limiting chinese govt influence here.

jza004252• 9 years ago

HN should curb this racist attitude.

throwanem• 9 years ago

Globalism can be a real bastard.

surveilmebro• 9 years ago

I've noticed similar things at my university [am research faculty; disclaimer: throwaway account since my usual one identifies me].

Something I've seen often is unfamiliar faces specifically at seminars presented by academics of Taiwanese origin. My department has a pretty static set of seminar attendees, so it is quite noticeable when three or four undergrad-aged people I don't know slip into the back of the room.

msie3• 9 years ago

I just don't think all that effort is going to make a difference in anti-China sentiment in the US or anywhere else.

ajmurmann• 9 years ago

It might make it worse. I actually have many things I love about China and wouldn't mind moving there for a few years if it wasn't for this oppressive stuff.

panzer_wyrm2• 9 years ago

If you don't involve yourself deep into politics the most oppressive thing there is that you have to eat with chopsticks.

It is hardly totalitarian dystopia. As long as you are there to make money and help the chineese do so you are fine.

gragas• 9 years ago

It's interesting how many people instantly try to twist this into an anti-Israel thread.

agjacobson3• 9 years ago

I noticed this too.

erikpukinskis3• 9 years ago

I'm not sure what you're implying when you say it's "interesting".

If you have a problem with the equation of anti-Tibet political intervention by China and anti-Palestine intervention by Israel then state your case.

dragonwriter2• 9 years ago

If you have a problem with the equation of anti-Tibet political intervention by China and anti-Palestine intervention by Israel then state your case.

As much as Israel has colonized parts of Palestine by way of settlements, its nothing like the Chinese annexation and colonization of Tibet.

kenshinoor• 9 years ago

Of cause the students will protest Dalai Lama.

China has a database for a list of certified overseas universities. There was a school removed from that list for allowing Dalai to talk about Tibet in his visit.

mwnivek• 9 years ago

Link to source, which I could not find in the posted link: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/04/us/chinese-students-weste...

metaphor2• 9 years ago

It's literally at the top, plain as day, in a hyperlink labeled SOURCE, immediately to the right of a label denoting that it came from NYT.

vtange• 9 years ago

Reminds me of that one time when some students at UCSD protested against the university hosting the Dalai Lama for a graduation speech.

https://qz.com/908922/chinese-students-at-ucsd-are-evoking-d...

I've always felt that in an increasingly globalized and connected world, we will start to see increased external influence in America from parties that are not the Democrats or the Republicans. China is arguably the world's largest and most powerful political party, and with no domestic competition, it pretty much has the freedom and ability to overshadow smaller, more divided political entities.

bgentry• 9 years ago

The UCSD Dalai Lama incident is literally the subject of at least the first four paragraphs of this article.

techman92• 9 years ago

The leadoff photo is literally outside the main library at UCSD.

LightskinKanye• 9 years ago

I don't know how I feel about posting outline.com articles that are from the NYTimes.com without their consent...

Seems pretty unethical since I don't have a subscription and would like to support them somehow.

narrator• 9 years ago

I am sure they will be welcomed alongside third wave feminism and radical islamic groups to the great coallition of the outraged.

woodandsteel4• 9 years ago

I think the Chinese government is making a huge mistake in the way it is oppressing freedom of speech at home and broad.

China is now on its fourth political and economic system in the last century and a half. The present system is an accidental conglomeration of three quite contradictory philosophies: Confucianism, Marxism, and liberalism. It seems quite likely at some point it is going to prove unworkable.

At that point China is going to need to really think things out from basic principles and decide what sort of country it wants to be over the long term. That will take a great deal of intelligent, independent thinking. Alas, that is just what Xi Jinping is doing his best to stamp out.

unityByFreedom6• 9 years ago

At that point China is going to need to really think things out from basic principles and decide what sort of country it wants to be over the long term. That will take a great deal of intelligent, independent thinking. Alas, that is just what Xi Jinping is doing his best to stamp out.

I'd take the other side for a moment and suggest he may be doing what he thinks is best for unity in China.

Democracy isn't something you can just slap on top of anything. It starts from the ground up because it is built by the people.

Any form of government is always going to be concerned about some form of popular uprising. Negative sentiment isn't good for Trump, and it wouldn't be good for Xi either.

I agree with you that China needs to think things from basic principles. I'm just not sure whether my ideas about applying these within China are more or less correct than Xi's. Ultimately I think that's really up to the Chinese people.

On the one hand, democracy in China seems inevitable as their population grows more wealthy and has free time to demand a better life. On the other, it seems the nationalist side will always be able to say that any attempts to achieve democracy are the result of foreign agents. Perhaps China will achieve democracy when the West's fails. That would be a sight.

Animats• 9 years ago

The current system is working far better than the last few systems. Until 1985, China had regular famines. Now it has the largest GDP in the world.

woodandsteel4• 9 years ago

You're right, China has been doing far better. The question is whether the present political system, which is to a great extent the product of a series of accidents, will hold up over the long term.

I think the reason Confucianism was so successful for so long is the same reason the US system has lasted for centuries, namely both are based on a coherent, well-thought out political and economic philosophy. China at present doesn't have anything like that.

As I see it, the problem with Confucianism is it was designed for an agrarian civilization, whereas today it is an industrial one. The Chinese have never really thought out what sort of system they need for today's world.

golergka• 9 years ago

China is going to need to really think things out from basic principles and decide what sort of country it wants to be over the long term. That will take a great deal of intelligent, independent thinking.

What you're describing sounds like a modernist, top-down approach, when an enlightened one in ivory tower decides on a best system of government and organization and then bestows it upon the people of the land. We all know how well something like this works out.

What China seems to be doing, on the other hand, is following the mentality of it's people. There's a lot of corruption and bad stuff happening in China - but it exactly follows the expectations and behavior of ordinary people, and exactly because of that, is more stable than an artificial and lawful democracy, implemented top-down, would be.

woodandsteel4• 9 years ago

What you're describing sounds like a modernist, top-down approach, when an enlightened one in ivory tower decides on a best system of government and organization and then bestows it upon the people of the land. We all know how well something like this works out.

No, I am talking about lots of scholars talking with each other in public, and thinking about the unique nature of Chinese society, and having a big discussion with everyone.

What China seems to be doing, on the other hand, is following the mentality of it's people. There's a lot of corruption and bad stuff happening in China - but it exactly follows the expectations and behavior of ordinary people,

Quite true. But part of the reason this is happening is China has never developed a new political philosophy that the people could support and use to improve the society.

vernon99• 9 years ago

It sounds a bit arrogant. US systems are in a much worse shape than Chinese now (lack of innovation, constant bipartisan struggle, inability to make critical decisions and move forward fast, ridiculous expences) and a lot of that can be attributed to the current political system that supports individualism and freedom to express radically opposing opinions (creating turbulence and distracting from solvig the real problems). To me, after spending some time in both US and China, it seems that the optimal system is authoritarian meritocracy - you need a strong monolythic leadership, the question is how to avoid thyrany. China thus far balances it pretty well. Also, intelligent thinking doesn't really correlate with freedom of speach, btw.

woodandsteel4• 9 years ago

You have to think things out for the long term. Authoritarian systems are often quite successful in the short term, but the have a closed decision making process that leads them into decline over the long term.

agjacobson3• 9 years ago

In 2016, China landed a robotic rover on the moon. The NY Times had fairly extensive coverage. For a solid month, the main article was in the top ten of forwarded articles, assuring that all nytimes.com readers would repeatedly see it in a prominent sidebar. This is unusual behavior. NY Times readers are interested, but easily jaded by space travel. And nothing lasts forever a month.

Finally, I complained to the nytimes.com ombudsman. Gone in a day! Someone there must have agreed with me. Click farm behavior.

metaphor2• 9 years ago

> This is unusual behavior.
> Click farm behavior.

2010 U.S. Census reported[1] 695,000 who self-identify as Chinese in the NY metro area alone...never mind LA, Bay area, Boston, and Seattle...only a few of the largest, wealthiest, highly educated cities in the nation. Are you sure?

[1] https://www.census.gov/prod/cen2010/briefs/c2010br-11.pdf

ouid• 9 years ago

I think if the nytimes were to actually have responded to agjacobsons claim, it would have been with an internal investigation, and then any action would have been taken only after the results of that investigation.

maverick_iceman2• 9 years ago

I see this as an outgrowth of left-liberal student bodies clamping down on conservative speech on college campuses. If leftist students can block Ann Coulter from speaking then why can't Chinese students block the Dalai Lama? Every speech is guaranteed to offend someone and that's verboten in today's campuses. As a libertarian, I was always worried about this and it was a main reason why I opposed social justice warriors. Sadly, our fear has come to pass and censorship now reigns in universities. In the future, children's fairytales will be the only safe topic to discuss.

unityByFreedom6• 9 years ago

If leftist students can block Ann Coulter from speaking then why can't Chinese students block the Dalai Lama?

Students actually don't have a right to forcibly block speakers. That's a common misconception of free speech.

If you want to see examples of how real free speech is upheld, check out cases on thefire.org [1]. It's a law firm that specializes in tackling free speech issues on college campuses. However, they can't take a case without a plaintiff.

So, if one group protests and succeeds in blocking some speaker, the burden is still on the victimized group to file a lawsuit.

As they say, freedom isn't free, and you need to fight to keep it.

[1] https://www.thefire.org/category/cases/free-speech/

mistermann9• 9 years ago

It isn't a legal right, it is a de facto right.

Generally speaking, only left leaning speakers are allowed on campuses.

Generally speaking, only pro-immigration speech is allowed in polite company.

This story, at least to me, also illustrates Chinese immigrants aren't interested in immigrating to other countries because they like the culture, way of life, etc and are choosing them as a new home to raise their families (well, this is part of it of course), but perhaps even unbeknownst to themselves, they have a strong intention to modify their host cultures into a form more like what they are used to.

bhouston3• 9 years ago

It has nothing really do to with that. Chinese government doesn't care about left wing American students and what they think. It is just doing what it can to promote its message, like it has been doing for decades.

PakG1• 9 years ago

I think gp is saying that the first action legitimizes the second by setting precedent, so it's difficult to call the second action illegitimate.

nyolfen2• 9 years ago

the chinese government may not care what left wing american students have to say, but if those students establish a precedent that speakers deemed 'offensive' can be shut down solely for that reason, then the groundwork is laid for parties who _aren't_ left wing students to abuse that precedent as well. this is why we must defend the principle of free speech even when we disagree with the speakers.

kccqzy• 9 years ago

I think the GP meant that the Chinese government can in fact promote its message because it is free speech.

koolba• 9 years ago

I'm sure someone will eventually object to the negative portrayals of witches in fairy tales. There's no safe topics once you give in to this direction.

mintplant• 9 years ago

First off, who would you include in "left-liberal", "leftist", and "social justice warriors"? These terms all mean different things to different people. "Liberal" in the American sense or the traditional sense? Do you group anarchists, communists, and sociaists into "left-liberal"? Do you consider Democrats to be "leftists"? I won't bother addressing the amorphous idea of a "social justice warrior". Your interchangeable use of these terms suggests a general boogeyman whose beliefs don't match your own.

Secondly, I happened to be in university right now, and I can attest that the idea of campuses being overtaken by "censorship" has been blown far out of proportion in the press. Religious fundamentalist groups regularly set up shop on the main thoroughfare to propagandize; one even put up a gigantic wall of very graphic abortion photos. The university isn't coming to kick them out as their expression is protected. Students tend to gather around and heckle/argue with them, and their expression is also protected. In another incident, the Hispanic services center and other areas of campus were chalked with slogans like "Build The Wall" the night before an annual event for prospective students and their families: extremely embarrassing for the school, and widely condemned, but there was no retaliation against those responsible as, again, their expression is protected and no permanent damage was done. I'm aware the plural of anecdote isn't "data", but stories like this remind me of other pumped-up "kids these days" moral crises like the D&D scare of a few decades ago.

candiodari• 9 years ago

When the law department attempted to get a representative of the white house to speak about public service (something they do every year, for obvious reasons), the aula got locked down with chains and students prevented anyone from coming there.

Why ? Well "not my president" was one of the signs.

Needless to say, the students blocking the aula were not law students and since they made it clear they would disrupt any attempt to change the venue, the talk was canceled.

VERY disappointing I must say. You don't like who's gotten elected ? Let's obstruct the futures of your co-students because it might help them.

This seems to be the norm now. And yes, it was rescheduled, the venue was changed to a downtown hotel, and there was a "covert" announcement of the new arrangement. I hear the hotel owner even gave the venue and the drinks for free in support of free expression.

WillPostForFood2• 9 years ago

Except the D&D crisis was fake, and Charles Murray really was assaulted, and his escort battered, and Anne Coulter wasn't really able to speak at to speak at Berkeley because of the threat of violence. While these anecdotes don't define the scope of the problem, they prove it exists.

natch• 9 years ago

Pretty sure it was the university administration, not the student body, that said the Ann Coulter event wouldn't happen.

And I believe this happened because at previous events clashes between protestors on both sides, right and left (or all sides if you prefer) had turned violent. And since then the university has changed its decision.

Also I don't think we know that the protestors were students. Although it's reasonable to think that at least some of them might have been.

To me it's far more interesting to look at the Chinese students associations as a phenomenon with a longer history, predating the recent free speech brouhahas. The groups have been around since at least the early 1980s and are staffed by brainwashed zealots who were raised in a country where the official school curriculum teaches them things that are simply false (edit: as does ours too (US) but in China it is at an entirely different level), and media is tightly controlled to the point that journalists sometimes just disappear.

The liberals in the US are more in line with the thinking: "tolerate everything but intolerance," so you see them react strongly when intolerant people try to spread intolerance. It's hard for some people to wrap their head around the seemingly contradictory idea of not tolerating intolerance... you may be one of those people. But the Chinese folks are an entirely different thing, imho. They are complicated (due to national pride coupled with a huge chip on the shoulder from their history of getting surpassed in the last century) but suffice it to say they have a very rigid line of thinking about things they were force fed from an early age, and this goes way back.

taobility2• 9 years ago

All you talking about really hilarious. The Chinese students' protest has nothing related with Chinese government, all these is assumed by NYT. There are lots of political related protests in US campus, like protesting against Milo Yiannopoulos was supported by Hilary?! In NYT's point, all Chinese students are dumb, and they are brainwashed by Chinese government, and controlled by the gov. So, their protest is remote controlled by the gov. Really?

XiAus• 9 years ago

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-25/uts-professor-preve...

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/04/25/world/asia/china-xinji...

https://www.forbes.com/sites/anderscorr/2017/05/03/china-bul...

We are dealing with an increasingly totalitarian state, which bullies other countries through money. Present Chinese leadership is increasingly dictator like and has conflicts with every neighbour. China is not good news for our future. Western countries beauty is the free speech culture. You have to experience the suffocation of living in China, the fear of retribution and no basic han rights accorded to you. Trade with China should be shunned, hope was that trade would make the society open but instead it has made them even more brutalistic on the citizens.

unityByFreedom6• 9 years ago

Blocking other speakers isn't speech, and it is not protected. Speaking out against an invited speaker is free speech, but if they were successful in blocking an invitation, that would be grounds for a lawsuit against the university.

So, condemning China for their attempts to block a speaker isn't so wrong. They have the right to say what they like. However, when they say "this is trampling my free speech rights" they're just as wrong as democrats who felt that way about Milo at Berkeley.

It often takes a lawsuit to demonstrate what is and isn't free speech. There are some good examples on thefire.org [1] which I learned about during the Yale Halloween costume debacle.

[1] https://www.thefire.org/category/cases/free-speech/

princetontiger• 9 years ago

China doesn't represent Anglo Saxon culture or ideals. Canada, NZ, Australia, the UK and the US are the reason we have freedom of everything.

sjg0073• 9 years ago

I've met Chinese grad students who said the students at Tianamen square were terrorists.

gaius• 9 years ago

A friend of mine played hosts to some Chinese students in London, as there was one happening he took them along to a demonstration that was happening that day. They were utterly baffled, he said, they asked why anyone would want to protest against the government?

taobility2• 9 years ago

how is your feeling about the UC Berkeley campus's protest? Someone called them riot

unityByFreedom6• 9 years ago

For better or for worse, China's interpretation of freedom seems to match their culture.

Culturally, in much of Asia, criticizing someone else is more offensive than in the West. "Saving face" seems more prevalent to me in Eastern offices and families than Western institutions.

So, punishing someone for offensive speech in China probably feels normal to a lot of people. More people there avoid pointing out each other's mistakes, and talk miles around problems to avoid that.

I think that results in a situation where people spend effort trying to win certain battles that people in the West would let go.

dang• 9 years ago

Url changed from https://outline.com/RFwceY, which copies this, which violates the HN guidelines, which ask submitters to submit original sources.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

glubGlub• 9 years ago

Good for them. What a waste of time. China can't even tell that there really wasn't any anti-China anything at college campuses to begin with.

It's like me going to a bakery and making sure they aren't putting hand grenades in the ovens, and posting conspicuous warning signs about the dangers hand grenade shrapnel poses to croissants and the people who eat them.

What is it with totalitarian states, and this thing where they don't get that it's not about them?

I hope they keep it up. If this is their idea of effective sentiment manipulation, fucking awesome. I'd love to see what happens if we turn up the volume on this kind of ridiculously inept play at influence.

I'd imagine it starts to look not unlike sudden emails from Nigerian princes, thoughtfully explaining their ardent desires to share their clutch of investments with me, if only I'd helpfully provide the bank account to wire all that fabulous money into.

ashwinaj• 9 years ago

At some point, someone with gravitas has to come out and say "Money is not everything!".

In Flint, MI city officials say, "We're not spending money to upgrade water pipes"

For healthcare, "I don't want to pay for somebody else's healthcare"

For housing "I don't want a low income neighborhood next to mine reducing my property value"

For race relations "The criminal justice system is just fine"

....And now "Don't offend the Chinese"

This has to stop, money is not everything. At some point we need to do what's right (and show empathy) before money.

There are lots of things that people don't like, the world doesn't revolve around them. If the US claims to be a free society and wants to uphold it's true values, man the eff up and stop catering to almighty dollar. It'll hurt in the short term, but will bear dividends later.

ReligiousFlames• 9 years ago

Let's not forget the market pressures watering-down American Hollywood movies to not being banned in China.

http://www.businessinsider.com/hollywood-movies-in-china-201...

On Campuses Far From China, Still Under Beijing’s Watchful Eye

Related Stories