Bay Area Living in Shipping Containers

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-07-30/wharton-grad-s-got-a-tiny-illegal-solution-to-bay-area-housing

by gwallens • 11 years ago

61 81 11 years ago

bloomberg.com

presty• 11 years ago

some more info:

http://www.boxouse.com/

Luke is YC

Here's a 28min video of him and Heather showing off the project back in October https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfqunEuw61k

heard about this a few months ago and I find it pretty cool. if only the laws were more favourable...

jvehent• 11 years ago

Maybe it's time tech companies let their engineers globally work remotely from comfortable places, instead of parking them into metal boxes and sweetening the deal with catered lunches.

vonmoltke• 11 years ago

Or, you know, open more satellite offices (that do real work) in lower-cost areas.

pravka• 11 years ago

Exactly. I'm in the middle of a cross-country relocation because we decided that the bay area is just too damn expensive for its own good. Since I telecommute exclusively anyway, the move was a no-brainer once we sold ourselves on the idea of leaving the area.

ryanSrich2• 11 years ago

+1 - However you'll find no love within the HN crowd. YC and many SV startups are vehemently against remote work. That's why I was stunned when YC allowed for new fellowship applicants to work remotely (so maybe it's getting better...?).

I think a lot of it has todo with ego, investor show-ponying and lack of solid culture. Beyond that many startups justify paying their employees like shit for small office perks like free lunch and couches. That type of stuff doesn't really work remotely.

ghaff5• 11 years ago

I do understand the desire for co-located teams up to a certain point. Today, I certainly work outside an office more than inside. That said, I have a lot of trouble seeing how remote work would have been a net positive when I was starting out. Admittedly, technologies we had available for communication weren't as good then but that part of my career was so dominated by F2F interactions that it's hard to imagine I would have been as effective as a remote worker. (I was a product manager for mostly system hardware.)

mschuster91• 11 years ago

Problem with shipping containers is that they should be decontaminated and sanded down prior to living use - the contents get gassed, leak out dangerous stuff and old insulation materials may prove dangerous, same for the paint.

mapmap• 11 years ago

Good point. Also, I can't imagine it's safe to be running that camp stove in an enclosed space either.

illegalsmile2• 11 years ago

It never is. That's why all camp stoves come with a warning not to cook in enclosed spaces. Just a few weeks ago I was out camping and a father/son duo died in their tent because it was raining out and they wanted to use the stove to warm up food.

jasonlotito• 11 years ago

These shipping containers are converted. The idea isn't to just take a shipping container and start living there. You convert it so it is safe to live in it.

russell_h• 11 years ago

Neat project, but actual construction costs aren't what are driving bay area housing prices.

Edit: and looking at their website (http://www.boxouse.com/), solving bay area housing doesn't seem to be the actual business proposition.

gtirloni• 11 years ago

So much BS in that website it's tough to read past the initial paragraphs.

TY• 11 years ago

This stuff is straight out of "Snow Crash" by Neal Stephenson. What's next? Facebook powered Metaverse and bikers with sovereign status because they pack personal nuclear weapons?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_Crash

toomuchtodo• 11 years ago

I accept this future as long as rat things (robotic, nuclear powered creatures matching the form of a canine) become a thing.

"As part of Mr. Lee's good neighbor policy, all Rat Things are programmed never to break the sound barrier in a populated area. But Fido's in too much of a hurry to worry about the good neighbor policy."

aiiane• 11 years ago

Jack the barrier. Bring the noise.

thenomad• 11 years ago

Facebook powered Metaverse?

Given that Facebook owns the premiere Virtual Reality company right now, which employs one of the greatest 3D programmers living, who has explicitly stated that he'd like to create Stephenson's Metaverse for real, I think we're already well on the way to that one.

bloat• 11 years ago

See also an episode from The X-Files - Kill Switch

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kill_Switch_%28The_X-Files%29

brianzelip• 11 years ago

Glad you brought up Snow Crash. I would have if not; it's all I could think about after reading it.

bryanbuckley• 11 years ago

Probably Ready Player One style vandwelling technomads.

I'm almost in such a setup.

t0mk• 11 years ago

Cheap housing for Docker interns

advertising• 11 years ago

Have seen numerous shipping container housing projects over the years and none of them really took off. To make containers truly livable long term (combining multiple containers, decent finishes, buildout etc) it seems to cross a price threshold where a person who can afford to do it would likely build a traditional dwelling.

This is more about creative subdividing to me. Whether it's a tent or a shipping container.

illegalsmile2• 11 years ago

I think it really depends on climate but overall it's more insulated, sturdy, overall better just to do a stick built 2x6 structure the same size.

ghaff5• 11 years ago

I'm sure the biggest issue is that it's a lot harder to fly under the existing zoning/regulatory umbrella if you build a structure. Most "micro-apartments" are significantly bigger than shipping containers (which are 320 sq. ft.) but even so, at least in Boston, their rents are still in the $2K/month range. It's really about the land price and how much vertical building there is. This amounts to unofficial squatting on industrial land. Of course it's going to be cheaper but it doesn't really solve any problem.

roymurdock2• 11 years ago

In Ghana they are used extensively as shops/storefronts, but no one lives in shipping containers. Even in the most rural areas, people make houses literally brick by brick (buying 1-2 bricks at a time) instead of using shipping containers for housing. I think it's for the reason you suggest, and for the additional reason that I imagine living in a shipping container to be somewhat akin to living in a big metal dumpster.

neilk• 11 years ago

Why would anyone buy bricks in such small numbers, instead of saving up? A wall with two extra bricks on it isn't more useful.

Is it just impossible to save money safely?

blacksmith_tb2• 11 years ago

But shipping containers do provide a structure to work from, and don't require knowledge of framing, masonry, etc. that building something de novo would. Also, for SF, they are pretty earthquake-proof (unless you stack them Ready Player One style).

allsystemsgo• 11 years ago

Wouldn't a fire in a shipping container be pretty much disastrous though? I can't even imagine how hot it would get.

I liked the idea of a shipping container home, but my brief research into it showed it's not much/any cheaper than a regular home.

zzalpha• 11 years ago

It's a bit amusing to me that a concept originally envisioned to help provide housing for the destitute is now being pitched as tech worker housing in the bay area...

mrgoldenbrown• 11 years ago

In crowded markets, the materials cost is rarely significant compared to the real estate it sits on - living in a tent is still prohibitively expensive if you have to lease the square footage it is pitched on. This article is more about breaking zoning laws to save money than it is about shipping containers vs traditional construction.

ethbro• 11 years ago

living in a tent is still prohibitively expensive if you have to lease the square footage it is pitched on

The difference is tents aren't designed to be stackable. https://www.google.com/search?q=shipping+container+stacks&tb...

But as below comments mention, generally steel intermodal containers make pretty poor livable areas for a variety of reasons. Lack of insulation, hard surfaces, contamination from previous contents, weight and difficulty in handling without heavy machinery, lack of local sourcability, etc. etc.

Your ideal use case is probably a port area with extremely high population density and an advanced economy (for heavy machinery) but an extremely high wealth disparity, in a reasonable climate. So, maybe SE Asian port cities? With a sacrificial layer of containers on the outside to heat-sink?

bahro• 11 years ago

In Los Altos, Brandon Williams crams 14 tenants into a four-bedroom, two-bathroom house -- where monthly rates for a bed start at $1,000. He leases the bungalow from a Chinese venture capitalist for about $6,800, which he can more than double when all the beds are occupied.

“This is scalable,” said Williams, 28, a freelance electrical engineer. “I know a guy who has about 12 of these.”

What a scumbag.

amalag• 11 years ago

Is that legal?

Kalium2• 11 years ago

Of course not.

It's also probably a more humane solution than the currently popular option - don't build anything at all.

unavoidable• 11 years ago

monthly rates for a bed start at $1,000

This is the truly insane part.

austenallred3• 11 years ago

What a scumbag

I wouldn't say it's his fault. He's not doing it for charity, sure, but it's not his fault that the prices are insane. He's not forcing people to live there.

People double their money where I live renting places for $350/bed. People either can't afford a whole place to themselves or don't want to risk the hassle of renting an entire place and subleasing it, so they rent, realizing their combined rent is making a profit for the owner. It's just arbitrage.

He leases the bungalow from a Chinese venture capitalist for about $6,800

That is just insane.

serge2k• 11 years ago

No, but he's profiting off other people's misfortune.

superuser22• 11 years ago

I live in one of these in San Francisco, and honestly I love it. For $1700/mo I can live in a nice residential neighborhood with a <10 minute commute. There's a full kitchen and a very spacious common area with couches, tables, a TV, and plenty of power. I sleep in one of the eight bunks in the master bedroom, right next to a balcony with a beautiful view of the skyline. Most of us are interns and temp contractors, with an occasional "adult" passing through while looking for permanent housing. Honestly, it's a lot nicer than my University housing and not much more expensive.

Without it, I'd have to either live somewhere where I fear for my safety, add 1-2 hours of BART commute onto my workday (and lose easy access to SF restaurants/culture), or spend $2500-$4000 for a studio in a comparable neighborhood.

ghaff5• 11 years ago

I'm not contradicting you, but $1700/mo for an incredibly overcrowded dorm room? Undergrad, doubles converted to triples were considered overcrowded. Wow. Maybe that's the norm in SF these days but it's not something I would have ever considered post-school.

Obi_Juan_Kenobi• 11 years ago

You could easily live in Berkeley/Oakland in a nice 1 bedroom for 1700/mo and have a <20 minute commute. No roommates, nice neighborhood, probably even a washer/dryer if you're a little lucky.

If you work near a BART station, it's a faster commute than many parts of SF.

It's clear that the downsides are minimal to you, and the upsides worth it. I understand that. But you're freaking crazy thinking you have to live 2 hours away to find more reasonable prices. There are hardly even 2 hour lines on BART. Ditto on the safety issue; just know what parts of Oakland to avoid and you're all set.

lnanek2• 11 years ago

Doesn't sound bad to me at all. I'd happily live in a shipping container to get rid of my one hour BART commute either way each day. My east bay rent is more than double that too. It seems better in every way that matters to me.

w1ntermute• 11 years ago

High rent in the Bay Area is primarily due to poor land use. Not only are most buildings very short, but there's a ton of unused land near 280. It doesn't make sense to solve a political issue with technology.

optimusclimb• 11 years ago

Ummm if by "unused land" you mean open space preserves, parks, amazing redwood groves, etc...then yes, there is "unused land."

Building out on those areas because there's currently demand over on that side of the Bay (because it's closer to Stanford and Sandhill road) would be a big time shame.

setpatchaddress• 11 years ago

I thought the Stanford/Sandhill area surrounding 280 was undeveloped because the land is owned by Stanford. Not so?

lisper• 11 years ago

there's a ton of unused land near 280.

It's not "unused", it's just not being used for human development. Wildlife and nature enthusiasts make very effective use of that land, and the fact that it exists is one of the things that makes living in the developed areas so desirable.

ryandrake• 11 years ago

If you want to see vast spaces of unused land in the Bay Area, just take a drive from Fremont to Livermore via I-680 and then 84. Tons of open space, nobody living there...

DonHopkins• 11 years ago

"Cargotecture" is not uncommon in the Netherlands:

Shipping Container Houses, Amsterdam Noord

http://greetingsfromholland.blogspot.nl/2010/08/shipping-con...

Keetwonen (Amsterdam student housing)

http://www.tempohousing.com/projects/keetwonen.html

Amsterdam's Shipping Container Homes Are Lean And Green

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/08/amsterdam-shipping-...

Shipping Container Architecture

http://blog.designpublic.com/2008/10/27/shipping-container-a...

The Dutch have a thing for recycled architecture. You can see the colorful student shipping container housing off in the distance from the bungee jumping platform at the top of the luxurious Faralda Crane Hotel at NDSM ship wharf, at around 10:00:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=860OXQjf87w

They even made the KamerMaker, a 3D house printer, in a shipping container:

http://www.threefarm.com/http/threefarmtumblrcom/2014/3/18/t...

the-dude• 11 years ago

Student housing Groningen, for years already: http://www.studenten.net/lifestyle/lifestyle/16842/wonen_in_... ( Dutch with pictures )

comrh2• 11 years ago

Those look like a death trap if there were a fire. I also can't help but think of Bubbles from Trailer Park Boys living in his storage shed.

blacksmith_tb2• 11 years ago

It does seem like cooking on a campstove is not a safe choice, induction hotplates are cheap and powerful, assuming there's electricity.

rhaps0dy2• 11 years ago

I actually like the shipping containers. They're a bit expensive, but I guess at the rate of everything else it's about what you're gonna get.

j_baker• 11 years ago

Honestly, I think these people are dicks: http://kalw.org/post/how-tiny-shipping-container-community-c...

Not only is this an issue of residential codes. The other problem is that they're doing manufacturing in a residential neighborhood that's not zoned for manufacturing. And it's disturbing the neighbors in the area with noise and even sewage spillover.

comrh2• 11 years ago

They sound so ridiculously tone deaf like the idea of having people move into your neighbor and build houses from the ground up, unregulated, out of shipping containers shouldn't bother anyone in the slightest.

calbear81• 11 years ago

I was wondering how they would handle the sewage unless they had a hookup to the sewer line it seemed like they were basically creating a campground.

kxter• 11 years ago

They should look into the container park in downtown Las Vegas (Tony Hsieh's pet project) which has been immensely successful - city codes and all! :)

infecto• 11 years ago

This is a terrible idea. The problem is not finding cheap building materials but optimizing land use.

I look around the bay area and I see a ton of single family homes. Where are the large multi-story apartment buildings?

mahyarm2• 11 years ago

Being beaten down by a multitude of NIMBY forces, powered by perverse incentives.

assholesRppl2• 11 years ago

yeah, perverse incentives like preserving natural beauty and avoiding untenable population density

edit: but if you build larger living spaces in places that nobody wants to live, i'm happy with that

prewett• 11 years ago

Wow, so the response to squatters illegally living in a office building that is zoned non-residential is "you should figure out a way to make the office building legal to live in"?!

Either Ivy Lee's comments reflect a serious, willful, inability to see reality and enforce the laws, or it is simply a poorly thought through excuse for a willful choice to not enforce the laws. It reflects a deep dysfunction either way. A few precedents like that would make me very, very hesitant to purchase commercial property in San Francisco.

mahyarm2• 11 years ago

SF has been like this for decades. There is a reason why the entire bay area has this anti-development problem.

jefurii• 11 years ago

In one of William Gibson's Bridge Trilogy novels one of the main characters lives in a shipping container in Southern California. It has come to pass.

Shivetya• 11 years ago

Reminds me of JG Ballard's Billenium where an overcrowded world has people living in three point five square meter rooms that were subdivided out of any space possible. Basically a world where to get more space you had to get married and marriage required three children, all furthering the population density problems

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billennium_%28short_story%29

CyberDildonics3• 11 years ago

Just build tall buildings. If Taipei and Hong Kong can do it, so can SF.

godisdad• 11 years ago

I smell another Docker pivot

Bay Area Living in Shipping Containers

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