American students head to Germany for free college

http://www.marketplace.org/topics/education/learning-curve/american-students-head-germany-free-college

by carlosgg • 11 years ago

191 233 11 years ago

tsotha10• 11 years ago

How could this possibly make sense to German taxpayers?

Daishiman• 11 years ago

According to the DAAD, half of foreign students getting a degree in Germany will stay. That's not just in the short term either — 40 percent of students plan on remaining for at least 10 years. In the U.S., only 12 percent of international students opt to stay for even one year

That probably makes financial sense. Of course, it doesn't scale, but for the number of people studying right now it's probably a net benefit.

yandie• 11 years ago

US Visa system is not very friendly to foreign students either.

jsonne• 11 years ago

Germany has an abysmal fertility rate. It's probably in their best interest to attract young educated workers with subsidized college.

jacalata2• 11 years ago

From the article:

Germany wants these international students here, even though their taxpayers foot the bill.
“Germany is not a country that's growing,” Malone says. “Its population is not growing. They need people, they need immigrants. They want to be a migration country.”
Think about it this way: it’s a global game of collecting talent. All of these students are the trading cards, and the collectors are countries. If a country collects more talent, they'll have an influx of new ideas, new businesses and a better economy.

clusterbits• 11 years ago

True. There is big discussion on how to pay benefits in the future and how to stay competitive in global markets. To me the only way to solve this two problems is to attract smart people from foreign countries.

adventured• 11 years ago

I completely get the premise of drawing talent. I don't agree with the concerns over population numbers itself. You see this fear from Japan, Germany, and much of Europe.

Entering into an age that will be dominated by robotics, greater general automation, artificial intelligence, etc., having more people across the board will not be a net benefit. Germany is worrying about this at exactly the wrong time.

Germany has vastly expanded their economy since 1970, while adding zero additional people. They'll be able to do exactly the same thing over the next 40 years by leveraging the incredible productivity gains that are inbound right now. No population growth is necessary or desirable; if Germany holds its population steady, and increases economic output through greater productivity, they'll greatly improve the odds that the median standard of living will increase in line.

tsotha10• 11 years ago

If you're willing to shell out tens of thousands of euros to attract "talent", why not just give already educated people money to become Germans?

seren• 11 years ago

Educating someone from 1 to 20 is not free either. Being able to attract educated people is historically a big competitive advantage of the USA.

It is better to get someone who has already graduated, but getting someone about to graduate and contribute to the economy is not bad either.

omegaham• 11 years ago

They'll make it back with the increased business. You're having a large number of people come to Germany, make friendships, and learn the language. Some will stay. Some will do business with German companies even when they move back to the US.

Also, the program is selective, which means that you're hopefully only grabbing decent people and not riffraff. This further maximizes your return.

davidw3• 11 years ago

I think riffraff went to the university here in Italy: https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=riffraff :-)

cJ0th• 11 years ago

I don't think it is free for foreigners. It is just that those fees you have to pay (maybe a few hundred Euros per term[0]) are nothing compared to what it costs to attend an US university.

However, since more and more Germans want to go to uni some fields of study are jammed with students in recent years. This in turn means that the quality of education goes down (for example: not enough capacities for tutors and not enough actual seats for students) So from that perspective it doesn't make sense for German taxpayers. If capacities are already stressed getting more students doesn't help.

On a more human level it is probably beneficial when Germans and Americans form more friendships and thus learn to understand eachothers views of the world.

---

[0]"Although you can study in Germany for free at public institutions as an undergraduate, there is a charge per semester for enrolment, confirmation and administration – usually between €150 and €250 (US$170-280) depending on the university. There may be an additional charge of around €100 for a “Semesterticket”, which covers public transport expenses for six months. If you exceed the standard period of study by more than four semesters, you may also face a long-term fee charge, which could be as much as €800 (US$920) per semester." www.topuniversities.com/.../how-much-does-it-cost-study-germany

douche• 11 years ago

All of these fees combined are peanuts compared to the cost of attending any U.S. public university (I'm most familiar with UMaine and UNH, which is $10-15k, and around $30k for non-state residents, in tuition). Private colleges are often on the order of $35-50k for tuition.

It's really outrageous. 35 years ago when my parents were in college, they could make enough money doing typical college-kid jobs (waiting tables, working summers, the same sort of things college students do now), to support themselves AND pay their tuition. I'm a software developer, working full-time, and I don't clear enough money after taxes in a year to pay for a year of tuition at the college I graduated from, unless I were going to be living in a van down by the river and surviving on free pizza provided by student groups.

sonium• 11 years ago

Beside what was already said, one needs to consider that German universities have a much lower expense per student. This is because the universities have a chronic lack of money. This means that little is invested into 'feel good' facilities e.g. university run Gyms / extensive libraries. From my experience they offer little that is not essential to studying, but this doesn't keep them from providing a great education.

gigigigihkv• 11 years ago

That's contrary to all my experiences. Gym/sports/languages courses/... are easily on par with US private unis, except less expensive.

drvd• 11 years ago

Germans are not so obsessed about not paying taxes like e.g. Americans or Swiss. Nobody likes to pay taxes and everybody complains about the high taxes. But I think (actually hope!) that Germans understand (if only unconsciously) that happiness is much more depending on getting old without fear of poverty, knowing to be treated if ill, being able to go safely outside anytime anywhere, not dropping out of society if bad luck happens and getting proper education than on the single only monetary principle "I don't pay taxes!".

stingraycharles• 11 years ago

Also, you could argue that it is a good investment to have high educated foreigners receive their education in your country: it's like extending your business network on a nation-wide level.

chli• 11 years ago

Where did you get the idea that Swiss are obsessed with not paying taxes ? In fact Switzerland and Germany are very similar in all the aspects you mention.

more_original• 11 years ago

I'm German and I'm happy to pay taxes. You do get something for everyone in return (infrastructure, education, some social security (which has been eroded, unfortunately), health care, etc).

Also, I studied in the UK and my tuition fees have been payed by the UK government. So it seems only fair to invite others to study in Germany.

walshemj2• 11 years ago

Really? you regularly see reports of German Pensioners getting caught trying to smuggle large amounts of cash to Lichtenstein.

Though Germany isn't as bad as Italy or Greece

higherpurpose• 11 years ago

If Germany is like other European countries, it also helps that your taxes are "automatically paid" to the government, usually by having the employer take them out of your salary and paying them. It's not like in US where Americans feel every dollar going to the government when they do their taxes. Since they are paid automatically, the income taxes aren't even on people's minds, usually.

However, if Europeans had to do their own taxes for their salaries, I'm sure many more would be upset about high taxes.

CaptainZapp• 11 years ago

  Germans are not so obsessed about not paying taxes like e.g. Americans or Swiss.

How do the Swiss fit in to this? Actually the tax honesty is considered a lot higher than in Germany (let alone South European countries).

The reason for this being that the tax declaration is fairly straight forward and simple. Fairness of the (progressive) tax code is quite widely recognized, which makes for good - if not happy - tax payers.

If you're implying that evading taxes is something like a Swiss hobby and legal (bullshit I see quite often spouted by even reputable American papers) this is absolute rubbish. Tax evasion is not legal in any way, shape or form.

So my question stands: Where do the Swiss come into your equation?

tsotha10• 11 years ago

Well, okay, you've made the standard argument for a social democracy. It's sort of irrelevant to the question of whether or not you should provide services to citizens of other countries.

If your argument is Germans pay their taxes and don't care how the money gets spent I have to say I'm a bit skeptical.

wongarsu• 11 years ago

According to the article there are about 100 American Students at the University of Cologne. That should be about 1% of the students. Having 1% more students more who pay exactly as much as domestic students isn't something that concerns me as German taxpayer, even if there would be no benefit for us. If I would have a problem with our budget there would be much bigger fish to fry.

Symbiote• 11 years ago

When I started at Imperial College London in 2004, about 30% of the students in my class were from China, Taiwan or similar. Many wanted to work in the US, some had applied to US universities. By the time we graduated, after having lived here and with the US tightening its immigration policies, most took jobs in the UK.

That was with £17,000+/year fees (for non-EU students), so they were super-rich and also clever. If studying at Cologne is free for them, and in English, that will attract potential students away from Britain.

I paid about £1000 year, like all British students, but I'd definitely consider Germany if I was 17 now. Fees for British students have increased to ~£9000/year! My workplace has a very international staff, all bilingual staff's teenage children are pretty much guaranteed to study elsewhere in the EU, with others considering it.

th0br0• 11 years ago

The University of Cologne has a rather high number of students that are only enrolled there for the Semesterticket (public transportation ticket valid in most of North-Rhine Westfalia) and as such, the official number is slightly below 50000 students if I recall correctly. Compared to that, the 100 students are just 0,2%. The number of "active" students is around 20k I think - so the ratio is still significantly below 1%

aikah• 11 years ago

The question is how could that expensive US education could possibly make sense for americans?

In Europe,in most countries, education is virtually free, just look at the cost of law school or med school in France or Belgium for instance. It's what $500 dollars a year at most?

Of course there are plenty of private schools in Europe, but even these are usually half the cost of American ones.

I graduated in computer science, in France. 4 years of college education cost me, what, 1000$ at most?

Now sure, I pay a LOT of taxes. But I know at least some of it goes into education and allow other student like I was to afford a good education. Having stayed in US for a while, while salaries seemed higher I don't think the cost of life is cheaper than in western Europe.

doyoulikeworms4• 11 years ago

Public university used to be cheap.

In the 1960's, tuition & fees at a UC school was less than $2000 (2015 dollars) per year. In the 1950's, it was less than $750 per year.[1][2]

Today, tuition & fees at a UC will cost you $15,000 per year.

In order to completely pay for tuition and fees, the state of California would have to increase revenue $3 billion per year. Or increase tax revenues by just 3%.[1][3]

I, as a citizen, feel like our government's priorities have been absolutely abysmal since the 1980's. To me, this level of insanity transcends political ideology. It's just plain dumb not to fix this.

Now sure, I pay a LOT of taxes. But I know at least some of it goes into education and allow other student like I was to afford a good education. Having stayed in US for a while, while salaries seemed higher I don't think the cost of life is cheaper than in western Europe.

Cost of living is lower in the US (as a whole) than Western European countries, and median household income adjusted for purchasing power parity (PPP) is quite a bit higher in the US.[4][5]

That doesn't make any of this sensible, though. Sure, I'd take lower taxes if Californian kids had to pay just a couple thousand more to college than French kids. But $14k more? Insanity. Raise my taxes please.

1. http://www.dailycal.org/2014/12/22/history-uc-tuition-since-...

2. http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=84&year1=1956&y...

3. http://www.sco.ca.gov/state_finances_101_state_taxes.html

4. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_household_income

5. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purchasing_power_parity#OECD_co...

golergka• 11 years ago

I would gladly pay more taxes if it meant attracting intellectual and ambitious (and you have to be both to explore this kind of opportunity — also, I suspect that you have to pass some exams, right?) people from other countries.

sauere• 11 years ago

The mindset here is different.

1. We have a 20% sales tax, income tax that is usually somewhere between 35%-45%... car taxes, highest energy costs in the world... just taxes everywhere.

2. The overall mindset here is much less libertarian and much more "let the Goverment handle it".

3. Smart brains are needed for the local economy to stay competitive.

4. Another thing to keep in mind: the actual cost for a student isn't really that much money. There are no million dollar sports teams, luxury gyms, technical equipment usually just isn't on the same level...

Cthulhu_• 11 years ago

Well consider the alternative: only rich people could get a higher education otherwise. IIRC this is what happens in the US too (parents having to save for their kids' college education, assuming they actually have money left after paying the bills), which leads to reduced mobility (the poor stay poor)

tsotha10• 11 years ago

Well consider the alternative: only rich people could get a higher education otherwise.

No, that's not the alternative at all. The alternative would be to have people from other countries pay their own way and provide free education to your own citizens.

holri• 11 years ago

Maybe they understand that education is a universal good.

Htsthbjig• 11 years ago

Education in Europe is not free. You pay with your qualifications. If your university grades are not good enough, you go out fast.

I studied engineering in Europe. When I went to Boston or London to work it was like I was the boss or something because I was much better prepared than Americans or British.

But Americans have much better job opportunities that make them better than Europeans after working some time in any field.

The world is controlled by the petrodollar and Americans enjoy lots of benefits as a result.

Europe is old and taking risks is so hard here. In Asia it is even harder.

Pirate-of-SV• 11 years ago

Education in Europe is not free. You pay with your qualifications. If your university grades are not good enough, you go out fast.

Could you be a little more specific? The size of Europe, America and Asia is too huge for statements like that. There are definitely universities in Europe that are more similar to some in the US than other universities in Europe.

I'm a student in Sweden and I have not experienced anything that supports the quote above.

Maakuth2• 11 years ago

It's the same in Finland, at least in universities. If you don't pass your courses, the state stops paying the student benefits[1], but you can stay at the university. There is another, very low number of courses you need to pass every year in order to stay in, but that is very low indeed, it's only meant to keep registers clean of people not studying at all.

1: That's right, Finns are paid to study. I think students in most of the Nordic countries are.

edit: formatting

gambiting• 11 years ago

I know how engineering courses look like in Poland. Universities are 100% free, but they have absolutely no qualms about kicking out weaker students. Electrical engineering course at any of the largest universities in Poland will enroll 300-400 people,but 200 of them will fail the first year. The last year is usually finished by <10 people on time, there is plenty of people taking resits for years, and it's not uncommon for exams to be so hard that they have 100% failure rate. I have several friends studying engineering in Poland and well, first of all you need to pass all of your assignments to be able to take the exam(if you failed any of your practicals or assignments you are not even allowed to take the exam), and then like I've said it's not uncommon that out of 20 people taking the exam all 20 fail.

In contrast, I studied in UK and getting through university at an Engineering course was very easy if you didn't care about grades too much. You could even fail an exam completely and still be allowed to continue, which is unthinkable in Poland.

The main difference is, that in Poland all that matters is the diploma,not the grades you got, while in UK a diploma with a third or 2-2 grade is nearly worthless. So I think that Universities in Poland are much more careful about actually letting people graduate, while in UK pretty much anyone can graduate,but poor grades make their education worthless.

lentil_soup• 11 years ago

"I studied engineering in Europe. When I went to Boston or London to work it was like I was the boss or something because I was much better prepared than Americans or British."

What do you mean by "I studied engineering in Europe"? London is in Europe.

randunel• 11 years ago

I work in London. The natives here consider the UK as a separate entity from Europe. They talk about the mainland as Europe, and compare themselves to "Europeans", not to "other Europeans". This is the British culture of "us vs them", or "we are too good to be associated with you" that I live in now :P

userulluipeste3• 11 years ago

"What do you mean by «I studied engineering in Europe»? London is in Europe."

I understand your objection, but on the other hand there is also a reason of compacting the message sent across that may work for other European countries too. Instead of saying "somewhere outside my country, but here in Europe nevertheless", it goes just "in Europe" taking the speaker's location as a relying context (opposed to "in here", as "in this country").

galfarragem5• 11 years ago

I was much better prepared than Americans or British. But Americans have much better job opportunities that make them better than Europeans after working some time in any field.

Great comment. Anyway I will never leave Europe for US/Canada/Australia[1]. I've visited some family in the latter and I feel that the advantages of these countries are not enough to make me live there. Exchanging peace of mind and a huge decrease of life quality for some extra probabilities of being rich and extra consumption doen't worth IMO.

Also have in mind that Germany != Europe

Edit: [1] I'm sure these 3 countries are very different between themselves (I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings), but they are still "new world" countries, where the main goal of voluntary "colonizers" was/is getting rich and be able to consume more than in their native countries. This common goal leads to a lot of similarities between them as, for example, the urbanism: suburbs is a "new world" invention and this will always imply a common lifestyle (car dependency, malls, ..).

davidw3• 11 years ago

US/Canada/Australia

And in the next sentence, you remind us that Germany is not Europe.

Before the Canadians lynch you, you should amend your comment to point out that you are very cognizant of the differences between the US and Canada! Australia's different from the others in its own ways, not least of which is that it's on the other side of the planet.

tedunangst• 11 years ago

I think you have been misinformed about the main goal of many early American colonizers.

Also, that's a rather tenuous connection to suburbs. US suburbs mostly developed 200 years after colonization. And 100 years after London (that's "old world", right?) invented suburbs.

benihana• 11 years ago

Exchanging peace of mind and a huge decrease of life quality for some extra probabilities of being rich and extra consumption doen't worth IMO.

I don't think you understand what it's like to live in the US and Canada as an educated worker.

* but they are still "new world" countries, where the main goal of voluntary "colonizers" was/is getting rich and be able to consume more than in their native countries.*

Whoa, how are you using the internet back there in 1912? I don't think you understand the reason that English colonists came to America or how America even works today.

Your whole comment reeks of arrogance, ignorance and condescension but hey what do I know? I'm just an new world American, not a cosmopolitan, wise European who is recently celebrating twenty consecutive years without an episode of ethnic cleansing happening on his continent.

borgia• 11 years ago

Great comment. Anyway I will never leave Europe for US/Canada/Australia[1]. I've visited some family in the latter and I feel that the advantages of these countries are not enough to make me live there. Exchanging peace of mind and a huge decrease of life quality for some extra probabilities of being rich and extra consumption doen't worth IMO.

I'm a European currently living in Canada, who has also traveled the US pretty extensively. The US and Canada aren't really interchangeable. Canada can at times feel like America-lite but in most real ways it's thankfully very different to the US.

I didn't move here because I saw "advantages" regarding personal prosperity, mainly just for the experience. The quality of life here in Toronto isn't a huge difference from what I've experienced in Europe. Comparatively low crime when compared with other major cities on this side of the pond, low poverty, reasonable cost of living relative to IT salaries, etc.

Apart from that, the people are great and really live up to the stereotype and are overall comparatively laid back like in Europe.

What it is lacking though is cultural substance and identity. It's pretty bland. Nothing has any real character. In that way it can feel a bit like a major US city and will be the main reason I move back to Europe in the coming years.

Living and working in the USA is something I'd never consider personally. I'm also approaching 30 and in a few years kids will be along the way, and I would never consider bringing a child up in the US. I don't mean to offend American posters here with this, but what you offer is just not for me, and I could never be a part of something that actively supports the US government and its policies.

But if you were looking for a change I'd suggest giving Canada a shot for a while. It's very different to the other two you've lumped it in with and in great ways and if nothing else it would give you an experience to learn from.

eru23• 11 years ago

Try Asia. Singapore is essentially a better Germany.

doczoidberg• 11 years ago

The state pays for your education. Germany has a very good engineering education. Where do you think comes the brand "made in germany" from? We germans still build the best cars and machines.

kriro• 11 years ago

Slight correction: the brand "made in Germany" was initially invented to warn against low quality products from Germany (19th century used to be a lot of copycat). Quality got better and the meaning changed. [pretty sure it was also used as a "business propaganda" instrument after WW2 and only tipped to "good stuff" after that]

lorenzhs3• 11 years ago

Education in Europe is not free. You pay with your qualifications. If your university grades are not good enough, you go out fast.

While Universities in the UK (and probably the US as well?) boast with their retention rates that seem to approach SLA levels of nine nines, it is the exact opposite in Germany. Some of our universities are proud of their drop-out rates >50%, partly because only good students will get a degree at a good university. But you also have to keep in mind that quite a few courses don't have any entry requirements in many universities (others require a minimum score that consists of your GPA, optional test scores, and other metrics). You just fill out a form, attach a copy of your Abiturzeugnis (A-levels / high-school diploma), and voilà, you're now a student of computer science at one of Germany's top universities. It should not come as a surprise that not everyone finishes their course. In fact, tough exams after a year of study serve to weed out the weaker students. This gives everyone the chance to prove themselves in the subject, not some random test. It is also perfectly normal to change studies in Germany, so being kicked out isn't a disaster by any means (although you should reflect back and see where you went wrong ;))

On the whole, I think it's a lot fairer.

eli_gottlieb• 11 years ago

I went to undergrad in the US, and there's a similar, but disguised, phenomenon. The difficult majors (ie: faculties/degree paths) would have very high "drop-out rates", in terms of people changing tracks after the first year or two. So indeed, less than half the people who entered with a declared intention of completing a degree in Physics, Engineering, Computer Science, or Mathematics would actually do so.

Quite a few could be found in the social-sciences and humanities departments after they were "weeded out" of the hard sciences. Personally, I think this is a crappy way to run things, since it means social-science and humanities professors have to deal with lots of students who are only there for a generic degree they can manage to obtain rather than for the specific degree path.

On the other hand, I put scare-quotes on the "weeded out", because often the precise method of weeding out weaker students is to simply not even try to teach well in the first year or two of math, science, programming, and engineering courses. So for instance, my fiancee actually cleared all her differential and integral calculus requirements via Advanced Placement (exams high-schoolers can take that grant university credits), with perfect scores, but when she tried to take Linear Algebra in our undergrad math department, she found the teaching so bad that she struggled to understand anything at all. Despite this, she pulled an A- in the course and was one of the top three students in her class/section -- but insists she barely understood anything at all.

It really makes me wonder what kind of pedagogical wonders we'd see if university professors were actually trying to teach well in courses below the third year.

Paul_S2• 11 years ago

...and Germany gets the better side of this deal. Unless you overinflate fees and run your education system like a business educating people is a net benefit.

iamjdg4• 11 years ago

I am on a temporary work assignment in Germany (2 years). I would come back in a minute if I wanted to further my education. Its a great country, safe, modern, and residents (permanent or not) get a lot of support from the government. Free university is for the German people, but they extend it to foreigners because Germany needs people and they hope they stay. I've learned a lot in Germany I will take back with me an apply to my work and everyday life (focus, directness, efficiency, attention to detail, basing decisions on first principles). I imagine getting an education here would reflect these principles and be of very high quality. Most German engineers I interact with our exceptional. Germany has an export to import ratio of ~1.2 meaning for every euro they spend, they earn 1.20 euros. They can afford this. The US is less than 1 (perhaps 0.8 or something) and Canada (my home) is about 1 mostly because we have so many natural resources. The benefits one gets in the US and Canada pale in comparison to Germany, it is embarrassing. The US and Canada need to push their export to import ratios higher through innovation and efficiency improvements (real economic growth, not like artificial economic growth based on low interests, real estate speculation, and the financial/banking worlds investment/money magic tricks) in order to be able to afford the benefits a German resident gets.

tormeh2• 11 years ago

the ideal export to import ratio is 1, BTW. Anything else is an imbalance and a ticking bomb. The internal trade imbalances in the EU have already blown up once.

iamjdg4• 11 years ago

1? really? i guess you mean reinvesting your net positive export income into efficiency improvements and innovation and maintaining infrastructure? ok, i can agree with that. but one still needs save for a rainy day (emergencies, downturns) so maybe the ideal is slightly greater than 1.

Lawtonfogle3• 11 years ago

Even if it is 1 at the national level, at some level of granularity it will not be 1. This seems to be a system that cannot be in a consistent stable state. I would rather aim for controlled periodic fluctuations, but even then I don't think it is possible to avoid areas of economic bloom and economic blight.

Amezarak2• 11 years ago

It's impossible for everyone to be a net exporter.

At the same time, being a net importer is not in itself a bad thing. The reason the US doesn't have free college for everyone is not because it is a net importer. The US could afford Germany-style benefits; that's not the problem. Canada probably could too.

iamjdg4• 11 years ago

something to strive for no?

i think of countries export to import ratios like personal finance income vs expenditures. if you spend more than you make, where we you get the money to reinvest in yourself. you'll borrow it until you can't make the minimum payments and then default.

There are many reasons why the US does not have free college (taxes too low, universities are run like business now, etc.) but running huge deficits and not having any savings to invest in society is one of the reasons.

cylinder• 11 years ago

It's impossible for everyone to be rich, should we not strive to be rich?

stfu2• 11 years ago

As far as I know this has been mostly about boosting "diversity" quotas at German Universities in order to perform better in international rankings. Previously this had been done by rising the amount of students coming from low-income regions (e.g. ex-Russian territory, Asia), so it is certainly a welcome change to see US students making use of that system.

r3m6• 11 years ago

How about: "...to improve academic overall performance" instead of "... in order to perform better in international rankings."

Diversity has proven benefits in many cases, I see it in my daily work. It is much more than just a number in a ranking.

low-income regions (e.g. ex-Russian territory, Asia)

Asia? Low-income? These times are gone in many places. You need to update your knowledge. Diversity in your workplace could help :-)

stfu2• 11 years ago

You don't find it a "bit" surprising that U.S. students don't even make it in the Top10 countries of origin? http://www.iie.org/Services/Project-Atlas/Germany/Internatio...

In regards to the ranking - one of the most important rankings for international Universities is the Times Higher Education World University Rankings. Methodology section: http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-ranki... this factor is measured by the ratio of international to domestic students and is worth 2.5 per cent of the overall score.

German Universities have a big issue about ranking performances, case and point giving certain Universities a Government issued "elite" title.

brazzy2• 11 years ago

Bullshit. University has been tuition-free in Germany for decades, except for some states for a few years recently.

k__4• 11 years ago

But how much?

At the remote university in Hagen I paid ~120€ a year for the student union. Every course is 60-100€.

At the university in Stuttgart I paid ~300€ a year and all courses were free.

There was a time I paid 500€ per semester extra, but they are long gone.

chrido• 11 years ago

Other European countries are similiar, e.g., Austria € 726,72 per semester for students outside the EU, for EU citizen its free, as long as they are in minimum time

http://www.studyinaustria.at/study_in_austria/tuition_fees/

yodsanklai2• 11 years ago

I wonder if American students fleeing their country to save on education tax is more than anecdotical.

BTW, the article mentions Germany, but isn't education cheap in most European countries?

FanaHOVA2• 11 years ago

Here in Italy (Rome exactly) we pay around 1000-2000€ a year of tuition, but that's really what it's worth it. The education is good, but the structures are awful, from labs to classes and lecture halls. I've visited Caltech, Stanford, NYU and Columbia while travelling and they're light years ahead.

If I was born in the US I'd never move to Europe to study anything tech related, being in a major university like Stanford or MiT just gives you so many connections and makes you able to experiment beyond your regular coursework. Just like someone said on a post here a while ago, the difference between you and your friend who studied at Duke is that Tim Cook is just a phone call away because they walked to class together every morning.

Kephael• 11 years ago

The issue with this analogy is that schools like Stanford and MIT aren't very large at the undergraduate level and have admissions rates lower than any school in Europe let alone Italy when looking at undergraduate admissions rates. The undergraduate admission process at these schools is much less academic focused than a European university as well.

yodsanklai2• 11 years ago

You can't compare a random Italian university with Stanford and MIT. There are extremely selective schools in Europe too. In Italy, if I'm not mistaken, the Scuola Normale Superiore di Pisa is quite reputable.

DrinkWater• 11 years ago

I would have killed to get the chance to study in the US.

American students are far more complex and broad in their knowledge. And that's a very good thing you shouldn't underestimate. It helps a lot in your career.

Germany loves hierarchy and "conservative" thinking. And that is reflected in every aspect of society, even academic education. The main focus is to produce people that Germany needs. We have a shitload of "Fachidioten" here. That's a good thing, and also a bad thing.

tl;dr If you want to reach for the stars in your career, study somewhere else.

_stephan3• 11 years ago

These broad statements seem ridiculous to me. If you're speaking from personal experience, you should at least add which subject you studied and at which Uni/FH you studied.

doyoulikeworms4• 11 years ago

Agreed.

But the German education system isn't like Anglo (e.g., US) systems. 27% of this generation of Germans have post-secondary education, compared to 43% of their American counterparts.

Someone explained to me that this is due to Germany's focus on trades and apprenticeship.

mironathetin• 11 years ago

Well, that sounds as if you want to turn around the invitation for foreign students?

As the (currently) first post states, americans love the safety of germany and the free education - and the beer. I encourage everybody to come here, then take home what you appreciated and make american universities a better place too (I write this under the impression of suicide reports at MIT and poisoning of competing lab colleagues at stanford, the murder of a visiting german student in Missoula last year). Ignore the german hierarchies. I wouldn't put it as drastic as DrinkWater, but german universities have their little kings at the tops indeed. But this doesn't concern students, only scientists.

The atmosphere is much less competitive here, more a friendly competition that supports teamwork and good science - as it should be.

Have a good time everybody.

rsp1984• 11 years ago

Having grown up and studied in Germany and having lived and worked in the US too I know the differences quite a bit.

Yes, thinking is more narrow here in Germany and the "Fachidioten" that you are referring to are real. However, the depth and thoroughness of domain specific knowledge that you acquire with a German university degree are hard to beat, specifically in Engineering / STEM.

I would even go as far as to say that the top German Engineering Universities (Munich, Darmstadt, Aachen) are comparable to the top US universities in that area (Stanford, MIT, ...).

Now with regards to broadness of thinking and knowledge, it's true that the US values this much higher than Germany and the situation hasn't especially improved with the Bologna process in Germany. However the big argument is that German universities are free and cost of living is low. Then why not study in Germany and get some of the US mentality later in your professional life by working in the US?

I'd argue that valuing choice of college/university too high is a mistake that many people make. Instead figure out first what you want, focus on getting your skills and how to discover new opportunities in life. No college university can really help you with this.

_stephan3• 11 years ago

Can you maybe explain a little more how the "US values broadness of thinking and knowledge ... much higher than Germany"? Do you have some concrete examples in mind?

interdrift2• 11 years ago

Having an university degree will soon be worthless ( not in our lifetimes ) but the revolution has already started. Online courses offer much better results for less money. In fact I think the best place you could be right now is : having a degree ( in which you didn't put all that much of an effort ) + work experience while you are studying + online courses from top universities.

eru23• 11 years ago

That may be true if all you are looking for is knowledge. University also gives you contacts and a piece of paper.

personlurking• 11 years ago

Here's a Reddit /Bestof on the German university application process. It's not exactly free.

http://reddit.com/r/UpliftingNews/comments/2itsz2/germany_of...

bpires3• 11 years ago

I thought it was obvious that there are still going to be fees, but that in comparison to the tens of thousands americans pay in tuition, it's basically free.

pluma2• 11 years ago

To be fair, to a German the tens of thousands Americans pay sound preposterous. The only way we (Germans) rationalize the higher costs in the US is that the quality of education is better -- which doesn't seem to be the case for the majority of universities.

xtrumanx• 11 years ago

Well that post took the wind out of my sails. I was browsing the Cologne University website until I saw this comment.

eru23• 11 years ago

Why? Doesn't sound too bad.

darkhorn2• 11 years ago

You can study at METU / Turkey. It is one of the best 100 universities in the world. Very cheap compared to the USA. And it is a state university, founded with the help of the USA during the cold war. http://www.metu.edu.tr/announcement/odtu-among-top-100-unive...

Less than €550 per semester for foreign students (if you are Turkic it is cheaper (might be free), or if you are Turkic country citizen, or if you have graduated from a Turkish high-school in a foreign country etc). http://oidb.metu.edu.tr/en/tuition-fee-amounts

Also there is another campus in Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, which is private (acts like a private). http://international.ncc.metu.edu.tr/tuition-scholarships/

eru23• 11 years ago

I've been at METU for Erasmus. It was fun and I recommend it!

But do not go for the academic quality. The best courses were just on par with the average course I had at a no-name German university. I don't know how they came up with the top 100 ranking---perhaps it's based on research?

darkhorn2• 11 years ago

Methodology -> Criteria and Weighting -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Times_Higher_Education_World_Un...

For the academic quality, I don't know foreign universities thus I cannot compare them. But at least I can say that almost all teachers are professors and most of them are idealist. And in order to be an academic member at METU you must get at least one degree (B.S or masters etc) abroad. My teachers were not best teachers but at least they were very knowledgeable at their fields. It is not the best of course, however other Turkish universities are worse than METU. For the teaching quality, I have wished it to be better. May be METU is good for forcing you to study very much in detail, but it is not providing easy to study material and easy to understand teachers.

mcbetz• 11 years ago

Yes, there is a massive flow of incoming students, especially here in Berlin and in other large cities (Hamburg, Munich, Cologne). But after graduation, exactly those cities do not offer great job opportunities. What makes our economic system strong are the many small to medium entreprises, often family businesses. And those are seldomly in the nice urban areas but mostly in the southern countryside.

So you will see many highly qualified graduates working as waiters or in startups who pay little to nothing - so they can stay in posh Berlin.

At the same time companies in the countryside have a very, very hard time to get employees.

Apart from that spatial problem, there is one huge drawback: the language. Most of the study programs are still solely taught in German. And the requirements are tough!

I had some classes in English and it was totally weird, as there were never more than 2 students who were not German natives. Quality dropped as well, when you're discussing German philosophy in English, obviously.

eru23• 11 years ago

Posh Berlin? Exciting perhaps, but not posh.

I hope that the startups and competition between them will drive up salaries eventually.

tempodox3• 11 years ago

If the Germans have any sense, they will lift a fee from U.S. students. Taxpayers won't appreciate having their money thrown away just so that aliens can have a free ride.

bpires3• 11 years ago

Foreigners have been studying for free in german universities for decades. This is not going to change.

adaml_623• 11 years ago

Just ask yourself if there are any other benefits to having U.S. students studying in your country. Think outside the box.

Your comment comes across as quite xenophobic with it's 'aliens can have a free ride'.

tempodox3• 11 years ago

Calling someone xenophobic because they would be unwilling to give away for free what is worth money everywhere else to people who didn't contribute to what they're taking, comes across as quite self-serving.

chrisBob• 11 years ago

This is an interesting contrast to the US. Germany educates foreigners for free because they want them to stay. In the US it is very hard for someone to stay after going through a publicly funded PhD program. Other than exporting our culture I am not sure what the goal could be.

eru23• 11 years ago

It's more than one goal. The visa regime is a complex (and foul) compromise between different political pressure groups.

khabaal• 11 years ago

As a german who works for a german university, i would like to point out that studying is actually not totally free.

Here at the University of applied sciences in Münster, you would have to pay a total 235€ every six month, consisting of a social contribution of 85.44€ and a student body contribution of 145.75€, for which you will get a ticket for free travel by bus or by train inside North Rhine-Westphalia for the whole six month. Some people in here just register because of that ticket. :D

To study in germany, you normally just need to prove that you have a specific amount of money to survive, pay for a flat, food and health insurance. And thats it.

As the website stated, we need skilled immigrants, because with a birth rate of just 1.3 childs per woman, the germans are slowly dying out, not to mention that our society is getting older and older like the one in japan. Attracting foreign students with a nearly free college is a great and very cheap way of getting highly skilled workers, its makes perfect sense.

bpires3• 11 years ago

It is not about it being completely free. The whole point is how 235€ or even 1000€ per semester is nothing compared to tens of thousands americans pay in tuiton. Top universities in the US like MIT and Stanford charge over $40000 per year. With half of that you could comfortably live as a student in Germany for a year with all expenses paid. I live as a student in Germany on 650€/mo. That's less than $10000 a year.

k__4• 11 years ago

The professors always told us, that the US is much more expensive with their education, but the people know this and have many options to save this money till the children are old enough to study, so it shouldn't be so bad...

legulere• 11 years ago

Until recently we paid 500€ in Bavaria per semester additionally to the around 50€ we still have to pay and abolishing it made quite the difference, especially to people whose parents don't earn that much.

maxlybbert• 11 years ago

As the website stated, we need skilled immigrants, because with a birth rate of just 1.3 childs per woman, the germans are slowly dying out

I had wondered why the German taxpayers would be so generous to American students. Perhaps this will last longer than I expected, especially if some of the students hang around after graduation. I can't imagine it being official policy, but the obvious way to hook people into staying would be to get them married to Germans before graduation.

mkaziz• 11 years ago

There's a greater chance of that happening if you live there for 4 years!

pwenzel• 11 years ago

That's pretty fair, considering many schools in the US now cost $25,000 USD a year. How much is health insurance?

netrus• 11 years ago

For Germans it's free until the 25th birthday (that is, you are in your parent's insurance at no extra cost), afterwards about 70 Euro/month (until you start to earn ~10k $/a).

nebody2• 11 years ago

For most students it's free (included in their parent's insurance who pay ~8% of their income). The other's pay 80€ (or 160€ for students over 30 or studying longer than seven years).

cabinpark2• 11 years ago

I pay 40 euro a month for my health insurance.

aswanson• 11 years ago

I wish I would have known these things on graduation from high school. Limiting one's options to US schools can be hazardous to your financial health. Our system is terrible.

k__4• 11 years ago

Funny story:

The four years I took for my bachelor were the only four years with study-fees in Germany. So I paid more for my degree than the Americans who study here now.

kleiba• 11 years ago

The CS department at the German university I work for started offering their lectures in English a number of years back. While a very good command of English is not uncommon in other parts of Europe, such as e.g. Scandinavia, this move is remarkable in my opinion because English is (more or less) ubiquitous only in the younger generation in Germany. A lot of middle-aged people do not speak English, or only at a very rudimentary level. Of course you won't have any problems getting around just on English in places like Berlin or Heidelberg, but this effect does not generalize across the board.

So the biggest problem I see with moving to English within the German higher education system is that it creates the illusion that you don't really need to speak German to live in that country. But at the university, you live inside a bubble: some of my coworkers have come here from other countries five or more years ago, and still speak hardly any German. And that's fine because the working language in our department is de facto English. There are even German classes that the university offers and that some of my coworkers took, but since they never really needed it inside the bubble, their success at learning German has remained rather humble.

Now, one of my coworker wants to move on from academia and has been looking for jobs -- IT-related, that is. He's (over?)-specialized (with his PhD almost finished) in a specific area (speech signal analysis), but basically speaks no German. He's having a really hard time getting any reactions at all to his job applications. Most of the time, the companies do not even send rejection notes. I've been helping him a little bit with this, and given his credentials, I really find it difficult to understand why he cannot even get to the interview stage -- except for his lack of German.

The big problem is: if he cannot find something very soon, his visa will expire and he will be forced to leave the country. He's got a wife and two young daughters, the younger one of which was 2 years old when the family came to Germany. She's now 7 -- Germany is the country she grew up in, and she might be forced to leave it soon and move to the country of her father. Ironically, she doesn't even speak her parents' language perfectly.

So, there is a caveat when studying in Germany if your goal is to start a life here afterwards. Language matters.

What I cannot understand at all in this matter, though, is that by offering university courses in English and not requiring students to acquire very good German skills as well, Germany is basically investing a lot of (tax) money in the education of people who are more or less guaranteed to leave again when they're done with their studies.

The return of investment is thus pretty low... you could say, almost non-existent.

schrijver• 11 years ago

In the Netherlands I see something similar, in that Dutch people are actually too enthousiastic to speak English—many of my expat friends tell me that when they try to speak Dutch, people will respond in English.

Not speaking Dutch is all fine while you’re on your student visum in an English speaking environment, but it breaks down when you have to pay taxes or get a letter from the immigration office—all that is in Dutch.

Personally, I think it is great to learn a new language, and you’ll gain a lot from it as a person, but there is also a real necessity to it once you start to live somewhere for a longer time—a fact that one might not immediately recognise because of European enthousiasm to speak and interact in English.

_delirium2• 11 years ago

Not speaking Dutch is all fine while you’re on your student visum in an English speaking environment, but it breaks down when you have to pay taxes or get a letter from the immigration office—all that is in Dutch.

Denmark has gone to the next level and even this is largely in English now too, which makes it even harder / less motivating for foreigners to learn Danish. Most government websites are dual-language, and every civil-service employee speaks English. Many state agencies (and banks, pension funds, unions, etc.) now also give recipients an option of Danish or English for receiving official communications, and some actually default to English if you're registered as a non-Danish national, so you'd have to specifically request Danish if you wanted it.

eru23• 11 years ago

Has your friend tried to apply at, say, Google in Germany?

grkvlt3• 11 years ago

[The] German admissions process [...] is vastly different than it is in the United States [...] It's much more transparent, and it is entirely academic based [...] There are no recommendations or extensive resumes.

This is exactly the way University admission should be handled. It's much the same throughout Europe and the UK. I would hate to have had to go through the hoop jumping exercise of the US college admission process with all of the emphasis on extracurricular activities and proving that I'm the 'right kind of person' for them.

To apply in the UK, I sent a form with my exam results, and that was it. I could have added a 'personal essay' but didn't even bother. Not sure if this has changed much, but I hope it hasn't...

Lawtonfogle3• 11 years ago

How does it handle things like schools that can afford dedicated SAT (or German equivalent) prep classes compared to those that can't?

grkvlt3• 11 years ago

The entry criteria aren't based on something like the SAT, although International Baccelaureate perhaps comes close in Europe? Not sure, maybe someone else can explain?

So there are no prep classes or anything like that in the UK. Everyone sits the same set of exams (modulo being Scottish or English/Welsh/NI, which have different types of qualification) and those results dictate whether you can go to University or not. I suppose you could study more if you wanted?

josephmx• 11 years ago

Better or richer schools will always have an advantage over schools with worse teachers or less funding, particularly with the way we currently do exams.

steveridout• 11 years ago

Unless things have changed recently, before getting accepted to one of the top universities in the UK you'll be expected to do an in-person interview.

(I remember having to choose one lecture to study beforehand and I chose Feynman's introduction to Special Relativity. I didn't even know who Feynman was at the time but really enjoyed his book of lectures, and a couple of years later he became one of my heroes after reading "Surely You're Joking Mr Feynman")

michaelt• 11 years ago

For Oxford and Cambridge there is an in-person interview.

But for any other university, A-level subjects and grades are the only important factor. To take an example, LSE is often the third-ranked university in the country, and they literally have web pages listing grade requirements [1].

Naturally, not everyone has recent UK A-Levels so there's a little flexibility, but the results of standard tests are what drive admissions.

[1] http://www.lse.ac.uk/study/undergraduate/howToApply/departme...

Nicholas_C• 11 years ago

Absolutely not in my opinion. What about students that have to work while going to school? I had to do this and I can assure you that it really hurt my GPA. Other more well off students will of course have higher GPAs because they can afford not to work and can pay tutors. These students who have worked full time or have faced other difficulties will not be able to explain why their academics are lacking if it's entirely academics based.

I also think essays and interviews are great ways to assess the candidate's true interest and compatibility with programs.

grkvlt3• 11 years ago

But it's not just interest, it's ability to complete the course. Sure I might be interested in Mathematics, but terrible at it. What's the point of admitting me to an Honours Maths cousre? Also, there are usually strict legal limits on the hours you can work if you're under 16, which is when you'd be studying for the exams required for University admission, so I don't think it'd be much of an issue. Note that I'm thinking of the UK, where University admission is usually at 17 or 18.

AndrewKemendo• 11 years ago

Quite frankly, Germany is eating the US' lunch when it comes to advanced Computer Vision research and applications. My guess is that it's because of things like this.

So, that is a tough thing for us when recruiting because they have so many easier options over there instead of working, even remote, for people in the US.

cabinpark2• 11 years ago

I am doing a PhD here in Germany and I absolutely love it. It's completely free (except for the 300 euro fee per semester, but that includes the UBahn ticket which is like 200 of the 300 fee and is worth it) and I actually get paid really, really well. Plus PhDs are only 3 years and I don't have to deal with TAing and can just research. And because I am a student, I don't have pay taxes because my salary is considered a "stipendium" or whatever. It's quite nice. And where I am living, Frankfurt, which is apparently very expensive, is still cheap to me.

But, as others have said in this thread, there are drawbacks, which have been addressed. But that's true of anything anywhere.

So overall I highly recommend Germany for studies. Plus German is just a cool language to know as well.

fred_is_fred• 11 years ago

You can go to college for free and have a great chance to improve your life, then you major in North American studies. WTF is that.

American students head to Germany for free college

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