How to tell a young(ish) person their behavior is inappropriate at work.

http://www.articulateventures.com/articulate-blog/category/how-to-tell-a-youngish-person-their-behavior-is-inappropriate-at-work

by Articulate • 13 years ago

39 73 13 years ago

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NegativeK• 13 years ago

Is there solid research that shows that the Millenial generation actually holds the characteristics listed in this article?

I know I've seen some of them in my friends, and I've certainly seen a lot of people reference them -- but common experience doesn't equate to fact. I'd love to see work that addresses the generalities with rigorous evidence so I can know whether to lean on them or not.

swalkergibson• 13 years ago

This article is ageist.

Communication problems and impolite behavior cross all generations, it is not just limited to Millenials.

"Step 3. Remember, Millennials have been raised on a steady diet of compliments and praise."

Is this not true of every generation?

To me, this whole article reeks of "kids today" type angst.

freehunter• 13 years ago

I would say that almost all of the non-specific things hold true for every generation. It doesn't matter if you were born in 1920 or 1990, young people come into a situation with a different mindset than the previous generation. Without the shackles of "that's how it always has been", of course they'll be able to better see ways to improve efficiency. Of course they'll tell you if they're unhappy (because they're not used to being unhappy about it yet).

It doesn't have to be "how to talk to millenials", it's "how to talk to young people". Let's wait for the repost in 20 years and see how much things change.

manmal• 13 years ago

Exactly. From an evolutionary viewpoint, the next generation _has_ to act differently. That's (reportedly) how the human race spread so far across the globe - youths who were not satisfied with their parents' place went somewhere else, finally ending up in the far north.

rollo_tommasi• 13 years ago

Where the hell does this "we were all given medals for trying" meme come from? I came in fourth or fifth place or sixth place in a lot of activities as a kid and I never got a got a trophy for any of them. Is this idea backed up by any kind of analysis? Is there an "ur-quote" somewhere that all subsequent repetitions of this idea have descended from?

More to the point, the real salient feature of the "Milennial" job market experience is ruthless competition for top colleges and elite jobs, with sharply declining prospects for those who don't make the cut. No generation since the Depression has had to throw so many elbows and jump through as many hoops to carve out a livable career, which makes these kind of coddled-kids feature-length sighs incredibly frustrating to read.

The specific instance that this guy is shaking is head over is especially silly. He's throwing this kid some b.s. resume-boosting make-work basically as a personal favor, and he's surprised the kid doesn't treat it like a white-shoe interview?

bluedino2• 13 years ago

Have you been to a kids soccer game? Everyone makes the team, everyone gets to play, and everyone gets a little trophy at the end of the season. Some leagues don't even keep score.

thedufer• 13 years ago

The trophy thing is the only weird part of this. Everything else makes sense in context - it simply isn't a competition.

kmfrk• 13 years ago

I never made my soccer team. :(

nollidge3• 13 years ago

What age are you talking about? Are you extrapolating from an anecdote here? Is this any different from how it used to be for previous generations?

Even if this kind of thing is widespread, is this much different from adult recreational softball leagues (besides the trophies)?

Splendor• 13 years ago

Yeah, but soccer isn't really a sport.

ImprovedSilence• 13 years ago

I'm still young, I remember ruthless cuts for baseball teams, and then all star traveling team selection after that. It was very much not "everybody gets to play"

Zimahl• 13 years ago

I'm in my mid-thirties and I can give you an exact age that I saw this happen - 8 years old.

My elementary school always had a 'field day' where the home room classes in the different grades would compete in simplified track and field events. Simplified as in things like a standing long jump, tug of war, 50 yard dash. There were a lot of events but you could only choose to be in 2 of them.

Apparently my class decimated the competition. Whoops. The most athletic kids just happened to be placed in the same home room. We had the fast kids and we had some big, strong kids (we owned tug of war by a large margin). We got almost all of the first and second place ribbons, maybe a third here and there.

So, the next year (2nd grade) there were no first, second, or third place ribbons. Everyone got a participant ribbon and that was it. The teachers were instructed to not talk about anyone being 'winners'. I know this because my mother was a 1st grade teacher there and we've talked about this a couple times over the years.

bradwestness• 13 years ago

A kids soccer game is different than a competitive league. The point of having your kid join soccer is for them to get exercise, have fun and make friends, not to see what team is the best.

If they were still doing the "everybody plays, everybody gets a participant ribbon" thing on the varsity team, that would be weird.

joshstrange• 13 years ago

I think he over-generalizes with the statement "we were all given medals for trying", I didn't grow up in that kind of environment but I have seen exactly what he is talking about. When I was about 16-18 I started to notice it, the removing of the possibility of failure which manifested itself as "everyone gets an award", "Removal of star roles in plays, transitioning to everyone having a small part so no one felt left out", "Everyone is a winner, there are no losers", etc. I have 2 big issues with this kind of thinking:

1) That's not how the real world works so you end up setting these kids up for failure

2) If you never fall down you never learn how to pick yourself back up

I completely agree with your statement about the texting. He hung out with this guy outside of professional channels multiple times (Pizza/Walks/etc) so why would he expect this guy to suddenly change his method of communication when it comes to job. Not to mention by his own admission it wasn't an awesome job, he was offering it a favor/because he liked the guy.

My dad is real estate agent and the majority of his younger clients (<35 years old) all text him concerning looking for a house/selling a house. I still remember the first time he got approval to put an offer on a house via text, he thought it was crazy at the time but now it's a regular thing for people to make a $250K-$450K decision via text. If anything I like doing it via text more because I have a full record of everything said. I am looking to buy a house right now and I communication with my agent almost 100% via text.

jiggy20112• 13 years ago

I don't think there's inherently anything wrong with teaching kids that you can do activities just for pleasure, personal improvement and bonding with others.

There's already plenty of opportunities to be competitive as it is and the real world does not always reward super competitive behavior. There is often more value in encouraging and facilitating others than in seeking personal glory.

jlgreco• 13 years ago

I have three or four trophies in an attic somewhere from playing baseball as a kid. Never caught nor hit a baseball the entire time.

run4yourlives6• 13 years ago

No generation since the Depression has had to throw so many elbows and jump through as many hoops to carve out a livable career,

As a Gen X-er, I can counter that specific argument, but as to your overall comment, perhaps I can explain:

There was a massive shift in thinking in the late 80s/early 90s in education that valued the promotion of "self esteem" above all other educational outcomes. This drastically changed how children were taught and handled as they were growing up. In many cases, this was entrenched in such practical matters as "not keeping score", "not worrying about spelling", "not being too critical" and ensuring every child understood that "they were special".

Of course, any one person's particular exposure to this line of though and its effects on them varies greatly. Suffice to say that many people saw this as counter productive, and more recent research has shown that in many ways it has been exactly that; or rather, misguided interpretations of fostering self-esteem have led to the creation of over coddled babies masquerading as young adults.

Unfortunately, your generation is saddled with this stereotype whether you like it or not. Even more unfortunate is that it is not hard to find plenty of examples of support. This is no less true than my generation being labeled disillusioned slackers.

iguana• 13 years ago

TL;DR: get off my lawn!!!

aroman• 13 years ago

From step #2:

"One thing that older employees often don’t understand about Millenials is that Millenials have been rewarded their entire lives for doing things as fast and as efficiently as possible. Video games, homework assignments, texting/chatting online, finding fun things in the far reaches of the Internet all rewarded young people for doing things incredibly quickly.

Very few, if any, points were given for taking time, looking at details, learning slowly. They have learned that mistakes can be corrected but that time is of the essence. If you need to change that line of thinking, you will need to explain to them why they should not value speed above other attributes, show them their are rewards for slowing down."

As a millenial, this really resonated with me. And I can verify with numbers (read: test scores) that this line of thinking is in many ways at odds with a lot the "conventional" 20th century.

Tichy• 13 years ago

Why is it inappropriate to communicate about a job for a presumed friend via text message? I mean I think it would depend on the relationship, maybe the "kid" just judged it wrongly. Wouldn't calling be much more intrusive, for example?

Also, perhaps new generations really are not so keen on traditional employer/employee relationships. And I don't think they are the only way to get work done.

VLM5• 13 years ago

"presumed friend" Even worse from the article the kid is related to him AND is in his professional network AND thinks they're buddies. (Which aside from all this "hiring" stuff is going to make the boss/underling relationship a bit tough on both of them)

I am chronologically older than the article author but much younger in outlook. None the less, back in the day, I never wrote my dad a registered letter asking to mow the lawn for some gas money, or similar to my drinking buddies asking if they're hiring where they work.

columbo• 13 years ago

http://www.hotel-online.com/Trends/CarolVerret/GenerationY_N...

> Eric postulates that because their earliest influences have been television and Nintendo, they are “stimulus junkies”, easily bored. They are skeptical with well-developed garbage detectors and desensitized, which means that respect isn’t yours by virtue of your title. Eric says, “They crave the limelight, having noticed that fame comes to many for simply being in the right place at the right time and they are blunt and expressive. The good news is that all of this stimulus has made them adept at multi-tasking, fast thinking, passionately tolerant in terms of diversity and astoundingly creative.” ~November 2000

bluedino2• 13 years ago

Am I the only one who doesn't find that job inquiry via text not that bad?

There's no text or AOL-speak. In fact, it's worded better than most emails I receive at work. The author and the college kid have what seems like a pretty informal relationship. It's not like he's texting back some HR person he's never met!

pgrote• 13 years ago

Concur. I abhor using the phone for things like this and appreciate greatly someone emailing/texting. If things go well and we need to chat on the phone, we can schedule at that point.

sukuriant• 13 years ago

I don't think it was bad at all, especially considering the relationship the two of them had.

Actually, I could imagine reading that article with some-old-correspondence-method (telephone) and some-even-older-correspondence-method (physical mail) replacing texting and telephoning/emailing, and could imagine someone from 50 or so years ago saying the exact same thing.

Anderkent3• 13 years ago

Especially since the text sums up to 'Hey, when can we meet to discuss this'. I might be another silly couple-years-post-college kid, but there's nothing wrong with that text to me.

ElliotH• 13 years ago

I don't see why a text asking for a phone call/meeting would be inappropriate. The huge message seems poorly suited to the medium.

wizzard• 13 years ago

What I find grating about it is that it's worded like he thinks he's a hot commodity and is expecting Vance to woo him. And telling him what your rent is going to cost... wow.

DanBC• 13 years ago

Maybe wow, or maybe "I respect you, and don't want to waste your time. I'm grateful for the opportunity. But, this is my rent and I must make that much. So, if this drudgework that you're finding isn't paying that much please don't waste any more of your time."

jiggy20112• 13 years ago

It's interesting that some communication mediums are considered more "formal" than others.

SMS messages and emails are just ways of sending ASCII around, but one is considered more "official" than the other. Of course as time moves on these expectations change.

For example, in the early days of social networks it would probably have seemed crazy that serious businesses would be setting up profiles on these and giving them high priority.

Nowadays I am often surprised by the amount my cooler friends use facebook/twitter and the like for business dealings and job search.

ilaksh• 13 years ago

OK, so I'm 35, and I don't have much of social life, so I really don't know the rules.

Now I am wondering, is it really inappropriate to use text for certain types of communication, or in this case?

I mean, I would consider sending an email for the same thing, just because it would allow me to take my time and edit my pitch.

A face-to-face or phone call might be be considered more appropriate by some, but on the other hand, would you really want to have to reject someone face-to-face if it were the case that you didn't want to give them the job?

I think the idea is that a text is easy to send and doesn't involve enough effort, so its sort of an insult to use it for that.

I have a feeling that this is a cultural misunderstanding and that texts should actually be OK for a lot of things.

If he had received a typed snail-mail with the same text, would he be offended? The only significant difference there as far as I'm concerned is the vastly greater latency and waste of resources delivering a piece of paper.

Anderkent3• 13 years ago

>A face-to-face or phone call might be be considered more appropriate by some, but on the other hand, would you really want to have to reject someone face-to-face if it were the case that you didn't want to give them the job? >I think the idea is that a text is easy to send and doesn't involve enough effort, so its sort of an insult to use it for that.

Rejecting someone over text is just plain rude, and it gives the impression that you're trying to avoid them. It's not about the 'easy to send', it's about asymmetric communication - you want it to be a conversation between the two of you, not you notifying them.

I'd be just as insulted if I was rejected over email instead of text though.

Exception might be if you're rejecting them before you had any interaction (i.e. based on CV/written enquiry, not call/interview).

nollidge3• 13 years ago

> is it really inappropriate to use text for certain types of communication

No, this is just one curmudgeon waving a magic wand to transmute his subjective pet peeve into an objective cultural truism.

CapitalistCartr• 13 years ago

I turned 50 last month. When I was young I loved doing things as fast as I could. Video games has nothing to do with it, obviously. It was youth and testosterone. This has nothing to do with Millennials, and everything to do with teenagers not knowing manners at all. I had friends when I was a teen who didn't know. If a kid knows good manners and doesn't use them, its simple to tell him to flip to the good stuff. If he doesn't, its nearly impossible, although I did see the Military did pull it off.

rileytg• 13 years ago

Wasting your time to write this article was the real mistake.

ewest• 13 years ago

I agree - a thinly veiled slam against young adults and the changing nature of communications.

They're both somewhat in the wrong, yet the author should have been more mature in the approach as well as the blog post.

shubb• 13 years ago

Wow, here is the conversation this blog is about [1].

I'm horrified. Not so much that this guy wants his 'friend' to suddenly start acting like an anonymous jobseeker, in order to get work he is being offered for being a 'friend'.

No, I'm just horrified that the author is comfortable boasting about his arrogance. 'Silly college kid'? That's an amazing lack of respect for a human, never mind a prospective employee. I think any high value prospective employee coming across this blog would run a mile.

And why is this guy who graduated in 2005 writing articles about how terrible young people are?

I'm surprised to see a PR guy embarrass himself publicly like this. Vance Crowe, if you are reading this, is this part of some strategy?

[1]http://static.squarespace.com/static/51683bece4b0af794dea1f9...

angersock2• 13 years ago

Honestly, the kid comes off as a jackass in his text--"mmm yes i am a super busy college kid, what do you have to offer me? swirls whiskey glass".

The "silly college kid" part is clearly meant in jest, likely because of their shared history.

I'm all about iconoclasm, but the kid's communication there is just painful to read.

wfunction2• 13 years ago

I didn't see too much wrong with it (it seemed like he was genuinely busy and explaining what is going on)... until I got to the part that said "... hearing what you might be able to offer me." Not an appropriate response for someone offering you a job.

notahacker• 13 years ago

See, I saw that problem in the kid's sense of entitlement to an employment opportunity he's apparently been vaguely offered and thought that's the sort of mistake a naive kid might make

I also saw an arguably-too-informal response from the author which completely failed to address that problem, noted he saw it fit to publish in a blog promoting "workshops on how to attract and keep young talent" and thought that's the sort of mistake somebody promoting himself as an employer-youth communications guru really shouldn't be making.

einai2• 13 years ago

To me, the biggest problem of this guy isn't his use of text message, it's his attitude of entitlement "what do you have to offer me?"

I think that since the two have been hanging out regularly for half a year, it would be acceptable (to me, at least) to ask for opportunities available politely over text (email would be much better of course), but for him to make it sound like he's hot commodity and the author is the one who can't wait to hire him, is just plain silly.

Anderkent3• 13 years ago

I think in context (friend said there won't be full time job, but there may be some drudgework) the 'what you might be able to offer me' is 'what kind/how much work you have available', not 'what terms can you offer me'.

einai2• 13 years ago

Sure, that could be what he meant. However, I still think that asking for example "May I know what is available?" sounds much better than "what you have to offer me"

stephengillie• 13 years ago

You think the author's entitlement complex is better? The kid was saying "I'm stressed and have no time, but I need the money so I'm trying to make time for you", and the author just scoffs at him. That's incredibly rude.

milkshakes3• 13 years ago

tl;dr: Millennials don’t have the same view on authority from above that seems like the natural world order to older employees

don't bother looking for examples of actual inappropriate behavior -- the only examples the author can come up with are text messaging instead of calling, and getting bored at boring meetings.

run4yourlives6• 13 years ago

FTFY: Millennials don’t have the same view on authority from above that is the natural world order

And therein lies the problem, I think.

The world is changing, yes. The people in that world that have changed however are still very much a minority.

milkshakes3• 13 years ago

I'm not sure I understand the point you're trying to make.

njharman• 13 years ago

> Step 1. Make sure that what you think is inappropriate has a business reason behind it.

What is the business reason behind thinking text is in appropriate method of communication. I'd be willing to argue anything "in appropriate" doesn't have a business reason behind it. "In appropriate" is short hand for "in violation of social norms". And social norms vary by culture, social status, and tellingly, age.

I'm 42.

angersock2• 13 years ago

Texting is async, and probably easier than an email.

Then again, for an actual job interview setup, I would've written a polite email or called and tried to schedule something.

VLM5• 13 years ago

Probably distorting the situation from a purely professional relationship in the provided article, was the kid working his relative AND working his professional network AND working a guy who could be his future boss. I've talked to relatives at parties about work, and I've talked to ex-coworkers at bars about work, and in both cases it would have been super inconvenient to run out of the room to a typewriter when the topic came up. I've also talked to people at users groups and cons.

If you as the boss put yourself across the informal boundary, don't be surprised if your underling jumps the same formality boundary to meet you. Actually seems more polite to meet the boss where he's at rather than demanding the boss move to intense formality.

acjohnson55• 13 years ago

I think what this comes down to is that if you're a young employee and you're interested in being seen as a rising star, you've got to have a lot of cultural awareness. You should be able to combine an ability to leverage new technologies and work patterns to your relative advantage while also being able to assimilate into established structures. The fact that I was raised to adhere to traditional corporate culture has been an asset my entire career.

I had a good friend, my same age, who worked at the same company as me, and he didn't have the benefit of a strong cultural pre-education. As a result, he made a number of gaffes in etiquette that collectively hurt the perception of his seriousness in the workplace--things like pranks, being to "familiar" with people, silly voice mail greetings, etc. All these things you can get away with if you're knocking it out of the park, but if you're a regular, competent employee, you're going to find yourself passed over for leadership in favor of people who are a bit more culturally aware, all other things being equal.

It's a complicated world. Why should a well-written text message be worse than a well-written e-mail? I'm sure there are several reasons, but the point is that it's not something most young people consider. In today's global, connected, and rapidly changing world, we have choices between many mediums for communication and constantly have to code-switch for different audiences (especially if you're a minority, but that's a whole other topic). The folks who are going to rise are those who are very in-tune, either by intuition or education, with the connotations of the communication and presentation choices they make.

jauer• 13 years ago

"They don’t know what texting during a meeting makes others think"

I ran into this recently while wearing my Sales Engineer hat. I use Evernote on my Nexus 4 to take notes on everything but it clearly gave off a negative impression. The looks of disapproval ceased after I started using a tablet and leaving the phone out of sight.

There seems to be a generation gap between people that fully use smartphones and those who view phones as just phones and tablets as a acceptable replacement for legal pads and laptops.

snprbob86• 13 years ago

I'm pretty young and would consider myself on the "full use smartphones" side of the generation gap. However, I still think it's extremely rude to use a phone, tablet, and yes, even laptop, during a meeting.

There is a very noticeable difference in attention capacity between those who take notes with paper and those who use electronic devices of any kind. Devices with a screen tend to draw your attention even when you are not typing. More importantly, almost everybody can write while looking up and making eye contact, but very few people can type while making eye contact. Almost nobody can use a touch screen no-tactile-feedback keyboard without gazing off into the great glowing yonder. Even if you can type on a laptop while maintaining eye contact, your shoulders are postured towards your keyboard and not towards the speaker. Writing with a pen or pencil gives you much more upper body range.

VLM5• 13 years ago

Participants are required to have a consensus that meetings aren't a waste of time. You can do work and business tasks on either a phone or tablet, but the purpose of a meeting isn't to accomplish anything like that. How are you supposed to display primate dominance behaviors over a text message, or show your position in a hierarchy by demanding subordinate attendance?

mikestew• 13 years ago

As a guy whose wife is trying to figure out what to do for my 50th birthday party, I would like to ask the author: WTF is wrong with you? A kid you see in person once a month sends a text about a job possibility that you proposed, and that calls for a snarky answer and a blog post bemoaning "these kids today"?

The author grew up without cellphones and social networks? I grew up with a party line (look it up) and no computer until I was 17, and I fail to see what the big deal is. It's not like it was some random kid off the street. For my personal tastes, I'd rather the kid text me than call me.

These kids today, making us real elderly curmudgeons look bad.

languagehacker• 13 years ago

I think the real jerk in this story is the author, since he abruptly decided that a person who believed they were friends had to bow and scrape to him once he started asking about a job. I'm roughly the same age as this guy, and I just think he's just being crotchety.

Maybe his spirit has been beaten down through years of happily taking people's BS at some fascist workplace, but not every company is like that.

_Your_ workplace culture isn't a good fit for this person. Quit speaking for the rest of us, dude.

willholloway• 13 years ago

The author expects us to be outraged that a text message was used to inquire about an opportunity for "...some drudgework that might be good for a resume and could bring in some spare cash."

The real outrage is the entitlement of the author and many employers enjoying the slack labor market.

Millennials have been handed a very raw deal by their elders.

caseorganic• 13 years ago

The problem with categories like 'millennials' is that it generalizes an entire generation of people and makes it easy for people not within that group to say rude and untruthful things about an entire set of people. Instead of trying to understand where a group is coming from, it makes it easy for people to simply brush off any differences as inappropriate instead of understanding where a group might come from.

I've hired plenty of what you might call 'millenials', many via text, and they have been some of the hardest working, most professional people I've ever worked with. I've also been courted for an exceptional job via text, Twitter and Facebook. The hiring manager was in her 40s, and she understood those interfaces better than I did.

Hiring should be very personal, not cold and professional. Hiring is about getting to know someone that is the right fit for the team so that the hire brings passion and cleverness to the table. Even at a larger company this should be the case.

Hiring is changing, and has changed for many people. I don't think it's fair to force people into what someone somewhere considered a proper 'hiring process' if you end up hiring someone from a piece of paper and not for who they are. This kind of process can cause companies to lose talent, flexibility, and ultimately money.

I'm not suggesting that everyone hire in the way I do, but in the way that's most suited to the person you're trying to hire. Having empathy and attempting to understand and respect people on a case by case basis is important, especially when you'll be working closely with them.

I'm not a 'millennial' or whatever generalization buzzword some individuals use to make themselves feel more comfortable with the uncertainty of different people in a workplace, but I work with people of all ages and understand each of them as an individual, not as a generation. I communicate in the format they are most comfortable with. I text my boss, who is two generations above me, and email some of the more formal, younger members of our team. The college student in this post is not in the wrong in his communication methods. I understand that the author may be trying to teach him a lesson, but it's not that cut and dry across all industries, especially tech.

VLM5• 13 years ago

"Step 4. Be prepared to have your feedback to be politely/blatantly rejected."

Wikipedia was an interesting choice for an example, but I'd think the explosive growth of advertising would be a better example. Also political extremism... someone smart enough to be stuck on either extreme recognizes that something distasteful, like extremism, or perhaps a negative review, is fact, probably meaningless.

famousactress3• 13 years ago

I find the tone and content of this article wildly obnoxious. It addresses the entire situation from a place of undeserved righteousness. These pesky kids, how do we let them know that we've already decided how business people ought to act permanently? I have mental images of this guy firing Zuck for showing up to work in a hoodie.

Seriously though, the way young people think about personal information, privacy, and transparency is going to change the way we act at work. I'm at a startup now where our founders are a bit younger than I am (I'm in my early thirties). I remember being really surprised and even off-put when I got Facebook friend requests from them. I was used to keeping my personal and work life pretty distinct. That wasn't as much the world they lived in. They were used to the idea of working with their friends. Now it's super normal to me, and the company really benefits from the fact that we're all actively interested in each-other's lives. It's a bit of a paradigm shift and you can like it or dislike it but I think to paint generational differences as universally 'bad' is really unfortunate and short-sighted.

otto• 13 years ago

I think it is a bit of a generalization to say younger people mix business and personal lives.

Opposite of you, I'm in my late 20s, the youngest person in my organization; and I get Facebook friend requests from people in their 40s and 50s that I only know at work.

Perhaps it is more accurate to say people who do not have the same values in privacy as you use things like Facebook differently.

famousactress3• 13 years ago

I certainly didn't mean to imply that only younger people do.

The overall point I was making is that the world is changing, and it's fair to point out that it's young people that are the primary agents of that change. Hell, people younger than you built facebook. I don't think my generalization was over-reaching.

taproot• 13 years ago

Writing a blog about it and linking them in skype probably not the best way to do it. Just sayin.

How to tell a young(ish) person their behavior is inappropriate at work.

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