Zuck, Bill Gates, Jack Dorsey In Short Film To Inspire Kids To Learn How To Code

http://techcrunch.com/2013/02/26/zuck-bill-gates-jack-dorsey-code-org-film/

by aashaykumar92 • 13 years ago

441 222 13 years ago

techcrunch.com

selectout• 13 years ago

Loved seeing them bring in celebrities outside of the tech world to share their experiences/passions for code.

Chris Bosh was a complete surprise to me but made me like him even more.

Nemisis7654• 13 years ago

I agree. Not many young people know who Gabe Newell or Drew Houston is. But seeing big names like that that younger people are familiar with could lead to more interest in coding. Great video.

grapjas• 13 years ago

Or compare the public reaction of the death of Steve Jobs vs. the death of David Ritchie

the_cat_kittles• 13 years ago

If he became a more vocal advocate for coding education, he could have an incredibly huge impact since basketball has such a big international fan base. Not to mention he is just a cool dude!

michaelochurch9• 13 years ago

The gap between CS majors and software jobs is misleading. You don't need a CS degree to become a decent programmer.

Still, if there's such a shortage of good programmers (and I agree that there probably is) then why aren't we playing this to our advantage? A senior engineer can't afford a house in the Bay Area or New York, and our status is low-- we still work for managers; we're a defeated tribe in this way. Most of us don't have the autonomy to choose our tools or decide whether to use or replace old legacy code. Shouldn't our top priority, as a tribe, be to change this?

We should make programmer autonomy our major issue. http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2012/11/25/programmer-au... This will benefit us and the economy as a whole.

Then, after we've had this victory, we can work on increasing the total number of programmers.

nbashaw• 13 years ago

How in any way would this benefit the economy as a whole?

anonymfus• 13 years ago

Expensive labour provides incentives to automate it.

michaelochurch9• 13 years ago

First, the shortage of good programmers has more to do with the scarcity of high-quality work than a lack of access to knowledge. More autonomy for programmers means more high-quality work is done, which generates higher returns already but also means that programmers improve.

Second, if programmers take the decision-making roles back from smooth-talking executives, that means that smarter and more competent people will be calling the shots and society will run more efficiently.

jonknee• 13 years ago

> Still, if there's such a shortage of good programmers (and I agree that there probably is) then why aren't we playing this to our advantage? A senior engineer can't afford a house in the Bay Area or New York, and our status is low-- we still work for managers; we're a defeated tribe in this way. Most of us don't have the autonomy to choose our tools or decide whether to use or replace old legacy code. Shouldn't our top priority, as a tribe, be to change this?

Working for someone else will almost always end up like that. Programming is interesting in that you don't have to work for someone else, you can scratch your own itch. You just need to make something that is useful.

michaelochurch9• 13 years ago

I think you're off the mark, because you're always "working for someone else". Details change, but ultimately there's no difference between "mak[ing] something that is useful" and working for others. Sometimes the terms are great, and sometimes they're awful.

The implicit assumption is that "working for an established organization" must imply "working with miserably low levels of autonomy". I'm not sure that I agree.

If we negotiate better terms, we get more autonomy and more compensation. This will also give more people the financial means to start their own companies and get that level of autonomy.

The problem is that the exchange rate between capital/establishment and talent/effort is very unfavorable in comparison to what it could be.

mike_herrera3• 13 years ago

Autonomy within an organization sounds novel for morale, but it's a major shift from today's business culture. Strategy would also be incredibly difficult to execute. Organizational leaders need to be able to align their people down a common path.

If autonomy is the end-goal, start a company or go freelance.

michaelochurch9• 13 years ago

I agree that people who want outright autonomy will need to go off and start their own companies, but right now, typical employment terms for software engineers are outright bad in comparison to what they could be:

* mediocre compensation, especially considering the horrific costs of living in the places with the strongest economies.

* low autonomy, respect, and opportunity for advancement due to a scope-of-work defined to commoditize rather than grow engineering talent.

* low job security or transfer opportunity, which is the main reason for working for a large organization.

I believe that this arrangement exists because most software engineers lack the skills to negotiate for better terms.

Realistically, we need to improve organizational and independent employment at the same time. Market dynamics will corrupt one if the other is bad. Fixing one while giving up on the other is not a workable strategy.

sp4rki• 13 years ago

It's a major shift I agree... but it's a great decision if executed correctly.

Every company has a set of main goals that imply that development can't be completely autonomous, but hiring good developers is not just about code it's also about people with a vision and a sense of purpose for your product. Take the way Github works for example: at the end of the day their main goal is an accessible hosted interface to git, to make git version control easier and ubiquitous; nevertheless having that main goal does not stop their developers from creating new features (say for example a desktop client) that make the product better though it may or may not directly translate to their main goal.

If you have a company that develops software and your developers have the autonomy to work on things that they actually believe will further increase the companies value (be it an interface change, bug fixes, or the refactoring of bad code) you will most definitely have a better result than if you make people work on things that might not be their forte or that are uninteresting to them.

Now I don't mean that people should have a complete free reign of the product, as some things are too important to forgo because no one wants to do them, but giving developers the chance to work on things they actually believe in as opposed to things that might not translate to creating value in their minds can go a long way towards good morale and retention, and un-doublty a better product because of it.

nickmain• 13 years ago

Maybe we should be talking less about forming "tribes" and more about how to make programming accessible to anyone who needs to solve real problems using computers.

aristus• 13 years ago

Bingo. Reading and writing used to be a separate profession as well.

dreamdu5t3• 13 years ago

It is accessible to anyone, for free. I learned everything I use in my career for free on the Internet.

Most people have better things to do than programming, and don't want to invest the time to learn just because a news article said they should.

senthil_rajasek• 13 years ago

What is stopping you from getting your own autonomy?

p.s - I did not read your post.

zwegner7• 13 years ago

> The gap between CS majors and software jobs is misleading. You don't need a CS degree to become a decent programmer.

Conversely, you don't need to be a decent programmer to get a CS degree. It's a shame that in the age of the internet and self-directed learning, degrees are so heavily weighted in the job market.

paranoiacblack4• 13 years ago

I basically came here to say this. Often HN is frequented by those who are go to top CS schools, but I do not think they are in the majority of most CS schools. It is really possible to escape a university with a BS and MS without knowing how to develop and learn beyond your scope of knowledge. At our university, for example, we are supposedly taught C++, but I still find myself having to explain basics like STL Containers such as Sets and Maps to 3rd and 4th year students. This is after they've run into bugs with something that would essentially take two or three lines using one of the above structures.

base6982• 13 years ago

And yet all of the glorious self learners can't describe when to use a hashmap, what a hash is, or even the difference between a list and set...

I'm not talking even knowing the algorithms, I mean a guy that writes list.contains(condition) in a loop and it brings the server to a halt because every call to contains runs through the entire list, when a hashset.contains(condition) would run in milliseconds.

* no I did not go to a top tier school and only have a CS Minor, but I did read the books to make sure I didn't have gaps in my knowledge. It's just rare in my experience to find people that know the basics who also claim they were self-taught. People get all pissed off if you ask them what a HashMap is, which should be the most basic thing in programming.

dinkumthinkum8• 13 years ago

One thing about people that make this argument that I don't understand is do you all know about libraries? You know they've been around for a long time. I'll grant you search engines make some parts marginally easier but to get the fundamental knowledge, you don't have to have that. So why is the Internet the great panacea for this ... Or is it that autodidactism is not really that common but it's much easier to call casually watching a YouTube building a blog engine as learning?

duaneb5• 13 years ago

> You don't need a CS degree to become a decent programmer.

You need one to get a job, though. If not now, in twenty years when you're old in an ageist industry.

aashaykumar925• 13 years ago

If you can learn to program on your own and become proficient in it, build great projects, and keep up to date with the languages, why does it matter what major you are?

Granted I'm 20 and still in school, but just being a CS major doesn't make someone a great programmer. I like to think that employers care about projects you've worked on as that is the best way to see a true programmers talents.

_alex4nder• 13 years ago

Thankfully you won't need one to start a company, and hire all of your CS-degree-less old decent programming friends.

sixothree• 13 years ago

Or when you find yourself in a new city outside of you network of contacts.

lotso• 13 years ago

There are more programming/CS jobs every year than graduating CS majors.

dmoney2• 13 years ago

It may be helpful to get you past the initial Catch-22, but if you can manage to get a few years of experience (let alone 20), I doubt the degree would matter much. Lots of job postings have "Or equivalent experience" after their degree requirements.

lifeisstillgood10• 13 years ago

Fred George is interesting on this - see Programmer Anarchy. My view (and yes I am working up a blog post) is

1. Coding is the equivalent of literacy after 1451 (Gutenberg).

2. in say, one generation, any company not having literate people at all levels of the organisation, and not having then changed how they work at a fundamental level to take advantage of these programmers/business people will be at as severe a compettive dis-advantage; similar to trading company in 1600 where no-one at the top could read or write.

3. If you think that's a bit of a stretch, or say "yeah but there were loads of illiterate people on trading ships" - but the people at the top, the captains, the investors, could all read and write. So they could exchange information globally and accurately. Share a model of the market effectively.

4. So, the successful companies in a generation will have coding in their DNA. And to get there from today, companies will benefit most from hiring great coders and teaching them how to be CEOs, how to be Salespeople, how to be accountants. And letting them run the company as CEOs, and accountants do now. Let me repeat - hire people who can code and teach them to be CEOs. They will find ways to run the company with coding at its core.

5. In short programmer anarchy / autonomy is the right way forward. The advantages of running a company through code is so great (comparable to running a company through writing) that all other skills come second. They are necessary but software eats them. For a generation only.

Takebacks: I am guessing that the econmoic advantages of code-literate population is a diminishing return compared to a text-literatate population. say 50%? Thats still phenonemonal.

civilian• 13 years ago

let me know when that blog post is finished!

frozenport3• 13 years ago

I humbly disagree.

Lets focus on one point.

Literacy facilitated efficient information exchange.

Likewise programming facilitated efficient information exchange.

But, not everybody needed to program the Internet for this advantage.

I think you are confusing a personal advantage and societal advantage. Certainly, we need programers but I am uncertain if everybody needs to be a programmer.

I work a full-time software job, and I can say that the software is the easiest part. I do big data HPC, C, C++, learning models and physics simulation. I need people to come up with models, Ontology and even vision. I think at the Hacker News Ivory Tower of software-for-software or software-for-programers, we often underestimates the value of domain specific knowledge.

Teaching kids is certainly rewarding and a CS degree is a bright future, but I am more worried about the lack of US PhD's then the lack of user facing javascript.

acchow• 13 years ago

Communication has evolved over time from hand/body gestures and noises to spoken language to reading/writing. The latter (literacy) is now a major form of communication and required in almost any job.

Coding is not a form of communication.

ditonal5• 13 years ago

Can you explain to me what actual evidence there is that there's a shortage of good programmers? Good programmers still make less money than a good doctor or lawyer, indicating that those are even shorter in supply. Surely addressing that shortage would be a higher priority? Lots of people could use more legal services if the price was lower, and yet if someone wanted to hire a Harvard lawyer for $60k a year, we wouldn't even seriously consider it, but when someone wants an MIT programmer for $60k a year we consider it a job opening and thus a 'shortage.' Thus I find the 'job openings' a ridiculous metric of supply and demand, and I would use the metric people have always used - the market price. Using this more reasonable metric, there are careers with much more severe shortages of talent. As usual, nobody is surprised that those heavily invested in hiring programmers want a larger supply to drive down market wages.

chrisaycock• 13 years ago

My identical-twin brother is a doctor, and I make far more than he does. The reason is that I don't call myself a programmer [1]. Instead, I've built-up enormous amounts of domain knowledge [2] in addition to my software engineering skills.

As for the career prospects of anyone fresh out of law school, the legal profession suffered a massive meltdown in 2008 and hasn't recovered.

[1] http://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-pro...

[2] http://jacquesmattheij.com/domain-knowledge-or-a-lack-thereo...

sskates3• 13 years ago

Speaking as one, MIT programmers go for a lot more than 60k.

hamburglar• 13 years ago

> "our status is low-- we still work for managers; we're a defeated tribe in this way"

As a fairly senior developer, I just can't fathom this attitude. Working for a manager means you're low status or defeated? I want to work for a manager. Reward me and give me autonomy and respect due a valuable developer, sure, but please do all that management shit for me. In my mind (and at every single company I've ever worked at), the guys who actually build stuff are high status.

jseliger• 13 years ago

>A senior engineer can't afford a house in the Bay Area or New York

This is an important and under-emphasized point, which is elaborated here: http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2012/05/face... . One problem with programming salaries is that so many programming jobs and opportunities are concentrated in areas with very expensive housing, such that salaries themselves have to go up to compensate.

Before 1976, this wasn't as big a problem as it is now: most places that experienced rapid growth could build housing stock in response to that growth. In 1976, however, the Supreme Court upheld a 9th District decision allowing the City of Petaluma to impose severe restrictions on construction (see 522 F.2d 897 if you're the sort of person who likes reading court decisions).

After that, more and more cities made construction harder and harder; now areas that have a geographic advantage in some industry often can't build sufficient housing to keep up with demand because of legal barriers.

But relatively few people connect these issues.

nazgulnarsil• 13 years ago

The legal framework is the hidden-in-plain-sight gearing of civilization. Nobody pays attention because it is boring and slow.

steveinator• 13 years ago

I really wish people didn't spread this kind of message. Think job security guys! Come on!

klepra3• 13 years ago

That is wrong attitude.

11001• 13 years ago

Honest question - why? How getting more people into automation business will benefit people who are in it now (us), or the economy (arguably automation makes jobs and whole industries redundant). I am all for encouraging people to study science and mathematics, but I don't understand the value of getting more people to just "code".

devonbarrett• 13 years ago

Most of these people would not become developers. But think of the benefits if everyone had a brief exposure to how a computer works, or a realistic view of it should/can do. It may even cause everyone to regularly update their browsers as they now see the importance of it - we may even see the death of IE ;)

Felix21• 13 years ago

lool

sreyaNotfilc2• 13 years ago

I say "bah-humbug" to job security. That means that you just don't know or care about your craft. If you were really "1337" job security would be the last thing on you mind. You would actually be running the show and working on amazing products/solutions.

I'm a senior developer and I teach my methods to my colleagues all the time. It doesn't hurt me, but helps the team and the cause immensely. It makes going to work much more enjoyable when everyone is on the same page and pushing each other.

acuozzo3• 13 years ago

> I say "bah-humbug" to job security. That means that you just don't know or care about your craft.

I'm twenty-five years old. My wife and I have four cats, a home, two cars, and more than six figures of combined student loan debt.

I earn 75% of our total income as a Software Engineer. We can't survive on my wife's income alone and we don't have any family members to fall back on if times get tough.

So you, a senior web developer at JPC, might say "bah-humbug" to job security, but I, for the reasons listed above, do not.

clockwork_1892• 13 years ago

I am all for job security, but I am also for good code and programming fundamentals. I absolutely hate it when I have to edit someone else's code that is filled with bugs and improper use of basic functions just because said person cut and pasted bad code from the internet.

Also, a key aspect of a good programmer is experience. If kids start early say for example at age 12, by the time they are 18, they have 6 years experience already. Think about the things you can do with that much experience? It could lead to innovations in software far beyond what we see right now.

atarian• 13 years ago

Do you really think the people who are leading this movement care about your job security?

greghinch• 13 years ago

It seems silly to me that a basic computer science ciriculum isn't being added to high school or before. In the same way you have to take basic biology, chemistry, and physics, a modern student needs at least a fundamental exposure to the basics of computing

CodeCube• 13 years ago

I wholly agree with you, though I will expand it by saying that I hope they bring back some of the other vocational classes as well (woodshop, metalshop, etc). While I can't wait to see what new generations of programmers will bring us, we need craftsmen, mechanics, welders and other vocational professions just as much to help us with our physical infrastructure.

Basically, everything Mike Rowe says here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NwEFVUb-u0

lenazegher• 13 years ago

I've heard lot of people say that the best way to learn to code is to set out to solve a problem you're having.

I wonder if the global trend towards open solutions for problems will discourage people learning to code. I've been using computers for perhaps 15 years and I've only ever skirted around the edges of coding. I've learned a little regex and a tiny bit of bash scripting and I know how to edit a little php to get Wordpress to do what I want it to, but that's as much as I've needed to solve every computing problem I've encountered.

Wordpress is a pretty good example: there's now such a rich ecosystem of themes, plugins and hacks that you can get it to do some pretty amazing things without needing to actually write any code yourself.

warp• 13 years ago

Then you're thinking too small. Solve non-computing problems you're having! :)

adventured• 13 years ago

I was fortunate enough that the public elementary school I went to, had a full computer lab (in 1985); the public middle school and high school also did. And this was in a very poor part of the country. There's little question every school in America should have that; if my poor public schools were able to make it happen, anybody can.

I learned basic programming in middle school (turbo pascal!) and high school courtesy of those opportunities. I plan to give back throughout the rest of my life, to the education system I came from. If even one or two people per school did that, it would make a huge difference.

lifeisstillgood10• 13 years ago

FOr me the reasoning is simple:

* reading and writing code is basic literacy for the information age

* One generation hence, any company that is literate (almost all employees write code, the use of code runs through all its processes) will have enormous competitve advantages. Or rather any company that is illiterate will have enormous competitive disadvantages

* So Software will eat the world.

* but in the process from here to there, developers will take over more and more - moving from the "typing pool" into all of the company.

* this is unlikely to be a fixed supply of coders getting more % of revenue, and more like everyone learns to code and then usual political fighting resumes.

rimantas2• 13 years ago

  > reading and writing code is basic literacy for the
  > information age

No. Just like everyone being a car mechanic is not the basic literacy of the automotive age.

"Everyone learns to code" is a pipe dream.

lifeisstillgood10• 13 years ago

But everyone learning to drive is / was. Being a car driver is python coding. Being a car mechanic is probably on the order of writing a compiler.

The analogies will always break down but really, in this day and age, an adult in the Western world who cannot drive is socially and econmoically disadvantaged. (chooses not to is likely a different thing - for half of 20 years in London I had no car and biked / tubed everywhere. Now, my day would be impossible without a car. Sad but true)

I mean how many 17 year-olds do you know who say, "Learning to drive - who needs it?"

10098• 13 years ago

I wish I could up-vote you twice.

stevenameyer• 13 years ago

I think programming really needs to be added to public school curriculums. Not just because there is a lot of job opportunities for people with the skill set, but also because I personally believe it is one of the best vehicles for learning critical thinking skills, problem solving and computer literacy. All skills that are very useful in todays day and age regardless of wether you end up ever writing a line of code outside of school.

klepra3• 13 years ago

I think these days is relatevely easy to get basics down with sites like codecademy, codeschool, teamtreehouse and such. At least in web developement. You can get the idea how it all works, how to do simple stuff.

To me, the biggest challenge is to get bigger picture of technology I am using -> once I understand that learning is much faster.

kayoone• 13 years ago

I get the message and it certainly makes sense for alot of people to be able to code, but on the other hand i know so many (also smart) people that hate any job that would involve using a computer for more than communication.

Not everyone wants to sit in front of a screen all day, and imo thats a good thing.

danso• 13 years ago

Not everyone wants to sit and read or do calculations, but it's still important to have a basic grasp of literacy and numbers.

Currently, there is not a basic grasp of digital literacy. I don't think everyone should know, off the top of their head, how to compile a script. But if people understood the idea of patterns in text and repeatable tasks (i.e. for loops), that could be very helpful, especially to professional developers who can make use of structured, well planned information.

pawelwentpawel• 13 years ago

But most of the people do anyway. Majority of office jobs involve sitting in front of the screen through the whole day. Having some basic programming skills and general knowledge of "what is happening under the hood" would make many people's work much easier but we can't expect them to suddenly become developers just because it's cool and useful. However, most of them don't even realize how useful knowing at least one scripting programming language can be. What sit in front of the screen through the whole day if with little effort you can automate some areas of your work.

paranoiacblack4• 13 years ago

Well, you have to consider that this is due to their exposure to computers in the past. Common users often see computers as this buggy device that sometimes feeds them their emails or allows them to catch up with friends on facebook. Others familiarize it with a tool that makes people antisocial or destroys interpersonal communication because of all of the possible distractions. And even then others think that computers can only do what they make them do on the job and they hate their job.

I'd imagine that if they stopped looking at their computing device in those eyes and were able to truly express their creativity, their viewpoint would change. Programming is not about "[sitting] in front of a screen all day." That's a misunderstanding. Programming is about taking control of your computer for fun, fame, and fortune. It just so happens that our only way of doing that is by sitting down in front of the damn thing, currently.

MojoJolo• 13 years ago

At first, I dislike teaching programming in schools. It is because the space might then be over populated and finding jobs will be harder. Then I realized math was taught in school, science was taught in school. But most of us students didn't end up as mathematicians or scientists. Programming is much like math and science. It is a technical topic, and not all of us will like it. It can be taught in school as an essential subject but not all of them will pursue to be a programmer in the future.

dylan-m• 13 years ago

It would make software developers' lives a lot easier if so many people weren't scared out of their wits by computers. I think even basic programming knowledge can really help with that, because it makes it abundantly clear that a computer is, itself, a tool rather than a magic box (that happens to contain some tools in between all the scary and confusing stuff).

It isn't so much that I think everyone should be writing their own databases, but some understanding of how good software _should_ work, (for example, standard data formats), can guide informed decisions about software. Some basic technical knowledge is enough to understand why you should never build a large website on an ancient CMS where you end up with thousands of HTML pages that will need to be completely rewritten, one by one through some clunky web interface, when the site's design changes. Anyone should be able to look at that kind of setup and say "hey, that's complete garbage — let's hire someone who knows what they're doing!" and there will be a few less website janitors in the world. And hopefully a few more people making cool new stuff in their place.

Sorry, that kind of veered off course :/

dinkumthinkum8• 13 years ago

But take any subject we learn in high school, whether it's math, science, history, etc. The general public is vastly uninformed about all of those subjects regardless of the fact that they are taught in high school. Why would programming make a bit of difference in that sense? It's not like programming is not taught at all in high school, anyway.

patja2• 13 years ago

Yes, absolutely, let's make it harder for kids to compete with us and put us out of work when we are in our 50's. I don't want them innovating and creating new open source libraries that make us more productive or open up new opportunities we can't even imagine today. Life is a zero sum game after all, right? If they win I lose.

I am being sarcastic.

clockwork_1892• 13 years ago

I am in full support of this movement. Its benefit in my opinion are twofold: 1) Younger kids learn to code and which will result in them becoming more skillful programmers when they are older. 2) People who can currently program and write shitty code get challenged and can actually seek to improve their own skills and learn about more advanced concepts in programming.

scarecrowbob2• 13 years ago

I think it's interesting that initiatives to teach programming mostly reach to kids.

A big chunk of my peer group is 30 year-old underemployed humanities students. If they were interested, I'm sure that most of them could be not-underemployed.

Though TV takes its toll.

obstacle1• 13 years ago

I don't understand what you mean by your last sentence. Are you saying that your friends are too distracted by TV to learn coding?

scarecrowbob2• 13 years ago

I feel that if my peers would stop with the incessant stream TV, movie, and video games, they would have no problem fitting in the time to learn all manner of useful tricks, including picking up skills that would free them from the jobs they hate.

I don't believe this is a collective personal shortcoming on their part-- it's probably just the way of the world-- but the idea that so many of them hate their jobs but have ten hours a week to play games/watch films frustrates me. Rationally I understand why you might want to spend the day between your swing shifts waiting tables doing something other than working, but from where I am I think that all I can do is encourage them to do other things and point out resources.

wes-exp• 13 years ago

Personally I think the world is drunk with "code fever". We are creatures of overreaction.

Not too long ago it was "no one learn to code! it's all going to be outsourced to India!"

Now, "I'm starting a non-profit to spread the gift of coding to children. Coding is our future".

Give me a f-ing break.

foryoublue• 13 years ago

Thank you.

tudorizer• 13 years ago

If we're teaching coding to have more coding monkeys or because it's cool, you're right. On the other side, if we're teaching people to solve problems (coding or no-coding), that's always good.

zwegner7• 13 years ago

Yep. I think before everyone learns to code, they need to learn to think. Just dumping a bunch more people into the software field is not going to help the average quality of software at all, which is already pretty miserable.

Of course, coding is a good way to stimulate thinking, or at least it is for me. But they must go hand in hand...

igorgue• 13 years ago

What's "the world" for you? The bay area? Cause' I wish people would like to learn how to code where I live (Miami, FL).

kenrikm• 13 years ago

I moved from Miami to the Bay Area because of that exact reason. Miami is more or less dead as far as the coding/startup community goes. To bad since it's about 1/3rd the cost to live there.

paranoiacblack4• 13 years ago

Is it really that surprising to you that this would cause such a reaction? Over the past few years, coding has become so accessible that non-technical people are able easily set up projects with a few lines of code. It has also become a lot more social with programmers posting in hundreds of blogs, on twitter nonstop, and collaborating on sites like Github.

This is all besides the point, though. What is wrong with "code fever," as you put it? With that kind of connotation, you seem to be implying that there is some kind of net loss if everyone learns something about programming. Beyond being mad about a fad (which is itself an overreaction, I might add), it doesn't make much sense to me. Care to explain?

chaz• 13 years ago

I'm still all for it. Coding is a lot more than just filling jobs. It opens the door to critical thinking, breaking down complex problems into simple ones, separating correlation and causality, and differentiating between data vs anecdotes. It's essentially applied STEM education, but with very practical, tangible outcomes in equipment that nearly everyone will have access to.

I can't think of a faster, more accessible, more entertaining way to grow these skills.

hkmurakami• 13 years ago

It is also a very affordable and quick way to "build stuff", which is one of the strongest ways for children/adolescents to get excited about their "work"

randomdata3• 13 years ago

I do have to wonder what learning to code offers over the math that is already taught. It seems akin to teaching baking as applied chemistry. Should baking be a mandatory subject?

In high school, I taught myself how to program and formally took the math classes offered. I remember many days in class thinking, "oh, this is just like programming with another syntax." There is a lot of overlap there. In terms of critical thinking and breaking down problems, a coding course would just be a reiteration of the existing math classes in an applied setting.

marquis• 13 years ago

As someone who teaches people to code as a non-profit in an economically challenged environment, I'd invite you to stop in to one of your local non-profit-learn-to-code events and see the variety and interest of the people it attracts and the results. Not all of them will go on to become professional programmers but most of them will use code in their careers at some point in some capacity. More importantly, coding teaches self-learning, problem-solving and independence which can be applied to absolutely every way of life.

dinkumthinkum8• 13 years ago

I think this is a very sane response. It is cynical and perhaps a little harsh but it's just reality.

vellum2• 13 years ago

I think exposing kids to programming is a good thing. But when so many applicants fail the Fizzbuzz test, do you think there is something innate about coding? For other subjects, like math, you can get most people to do the basics, like add 2+2.

http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2006/07/separating-programm...

qu4z-2• 13 years ago

But 2+2 is something you learn by rote, really.

mich413• 13 years ago

School courses will do nothing if people don't have access to programmable computers. And they don't have - Windows doesn't ship with Visual Studio, OSX and Linux are irrelevant, iOS and Android don't come with SDK CDs and demos.

Now, of course, you know that these tools exist, and I know too. But most people don't and to them programming simply doesn't exist. Teaching these people quicksort in school won't be of much help.

rimantas2• 13 years ago

  > School courses will do nothing if people don't have
  > access to programmable computers

I was taught to program exactly in this way: in the classroom, without access to computers—our school did not have any.

When I finally had access to a computer and a real programming language (not some pseudo code) I just needed the syntax to write my programs in.

The tricky part is not to teach kids the syntax of language X, it's to teach them to operate abstract structures, and that is much much harder.

vellum2• 13 years ago

I don't see how this is an issue.

Day 1: Learn how to setup the language on your computer.

A lot of books, like Learn Python the Hard Way, make this the first step.

mich413• 13 years ago

I think I slightly misstated my point. The problem isn't really about lack of programming tools, but lack of programming as a concept.

You are given a black box which does some stuff, but you have no idea how it does this stuff or how to make it do something else. You don't even know that it would be relatively easy with a decent IDE.

jeremyjh• 13 years ago

Windows ships with windows scripting I believe; which gives you access to VBScript and something like a javascript out of the box. They have a free editor too but I don't know if it installs by default; anyway you can just use notepad if you want a lowest common denominator programming environment for kids on pretty much any windows box since 98.

mich413• 13 years ago

VBScript is rather obscure and AFAIK useful mostly for automation of admin tasks.

It doesn't help you with everyday stuff. It doesn't exist in Windows GUI, unlike (most) other Windows software. You don't use it to build GUI apps, games, web services or whatever may be considered "interesting" nowadays.

Contrast this with DOS which shipped with BASIC interpreter and demo games.

Bootvis2• 13 years ago

But most have access to Excel. VBA has it warts but the step from Excel is small and creating something valuable is actually possible for beginners.

dinkumthinkum8• 13 years ago

VBA ... gosh ... Why don't you just use a Web browser and Javascript.

jschulenklopper2• 13 years ago

> School courses will do nothing if people don't have access to programmable computers. And they don't have [...]

Well, that's almost solved with the Raspberry Pi: a fully programmable computer for just $40. It used to be a lot more expensive to give a child access to a computer that (s)he could program and tinker with...

robinh• 13 years ago

Hm... What would be easier to convince schools to do:

A.) download this software package (say, Python) that allows kids to learn how to program. B.) buy a dozen $40 mini-computers kids can use to learn how to program.

Most schools I know of would pick option A.

jkeesh• 13 years ago

Make sure to check out CodeHS. We are the little demo shown in the video using "Karel the dog." We work on making it fun and accessible to beginners, mostly in high schools and middle schools, but also have all ages of students. More than other "learn to code" sites, we focus on problem solving rather than syntax, and also provide help from real people to students along the way. http://codehs.com

It's exciting to see a video like this highlight the real need and current lack of computer science education in high schools. That is exactly what we are working on, and have high schools all around the country! If this is an issue you are interested, in please contact as at team@codehs.com

aashaykumar925• 13 years ago

I think people are shifting away from the point of the video and that's fine, and I don't mean to be "that" guy, but it is important to realize what these accomplished programmers are trying to say through the video.

If you listen carefully, most of the interviewees are simply attesting to Steve Jobs' quote at the beginning: "Everybody in this country should learn how to program a computer...because it teaches you how to think." The second part, the ability to think, is a skill that people must have AND use in their everyday life to be successful in whatever they do. Zuck, Gates, Dorsey, Houston, etc. are all encouraging people to learn to code for this reason, and because programming is an extremely empowering skill--not just in one field but in all...if you want it to be. The fact that programming can be used in all fields is why there is such a huge push for people to learn. It is a self and world-empowering tool that is simply being encouraged to be taught/learned by the incoming generation.

The current generation needs to realize that programming exists everywhere, just as we are taught that subjects like math, biology, chemistry, physics, and history are. There is a HUGE distinction between learning to code just for the sake of getting a job or improving the economy and learning to code because it can empower us to THINK and then DO. Not to be philosophical, but part of societies' problems has been always knowing what problems exist, but not actually doing anything to solve it--until now. Programming, more than anything, accelerates our ability to solve problems, little or big.

In a world where so many problems exist, programming is many times the means to achieving the solution. And that is why these successful programmers are pushing everyone to learn.

larrys• 13 years ago

"Zuck, Gates, Dorsey, Houston, etc. are all encouraging people to learn to code for this reason"

Certainly the self serving reason for the push can't be overlooked. The more people that are pushed into coding the more of a chance that Zuck/Dorsey/Houston can find a superstar to hire.

I'm sure in any industry (medical research as only one example) the people in that industry would love if more young people took a shining to what they do. Then they would have more to pick from. Sports works the same way. If you get a bunch of people interested in football out of the funnel comes some superstars and you have an entire industry.

aashaykumar925• 13 years ago

I'm not so sure if I agree with the self serving push. I mean sure, these guys want great engineers--in fact, Zuckerberg explicitly states that.

But also remember that Zuckerberg is now investing in young medical research and Gates has been a philanthropic investor for a long time--these guys are looking beyond their companies and show that they truly care about the world and solving the BIG problems that exist. They are literally world-serving through these investments.

onedev2• 13 years ago

I agree with you completely. Here's a repost of what I think that I posted elsewhere:

"I think the video was great and people are over analyzing it. The following is what I got out of the video because I didn't over-analyze it like most people are doing:

(1) Everyone should be introduced to computer programming. Keyword here is introduced. Just like kids are introduced to Art, English, Biology, Sports, etc. Many middle and high schools are simply ignoring technology for the most part despite it's growing relevance in our lives and that is what this video is trying to point out.

(2) A career in software engineering isn't necessarily the cubicle dwelling, loner, boring stigma that most uniformed people associate with it. They're showing that it can be a very fun and impactful environment like at Valve, Facebook, and Dropbox (noting the free food, laundry, etc)

(3) You potentially have the opportunity to affect many people in very positive ways through the software that you develop.

(4) EVEN if you don't pursue a career in programming, it can help you understand its implications in many OTHER seemingly unrelated fields. And it will help you develop critical thinking skills. (5) It can be a learned skill like any other and there's no need to be intimidated by it.

All of those are very noble intentions in my opinion and valid concerns to address to the general perception of programming as well as computer education at early stages to develop interest in people that otherwise wouldn't have known about it."

EGreg• 13 years ago

Wow, we should have a lot more of these kickass videos so people understand what we do without having to tell them :)

jfb2• 13 years ago

Software is terrible. I'm not sure the solution to the vast stinking wasteland of software slop is more people -- if pressed, I'd say it's less software.

dfischer2• 13 years ago

Just want to share something I've been involved with: http://www.kidsruby and http://www.kidscodecamp.com

dfischer2• 13 years ago

Sorry for typo, can't edit. http://www.kidsruby.com

patja2• 13 years ago

I think the point is there is a huge gap between the supply and demand for programming education, particularly for ages from 8 to 18. It is so easy and rewarding to feed the spark of desire to learn and create among kids of this age range, especially with all of the great free or almost free resources like MIT's Scratch purpose-built to address this need and reduce the barriers to entry.

Schools, teachers, and most parents are not equipped to deliver these experiences today. The superficial "technology programs" at most schools are appallingly shallow, not going much beyond Garage Band and book reports in Powerpoint.

Videos like this help motivate those who have the skills to engage and make a difference. What's not to like? Go out and get involved in volunteering to teach programming to kids. You will love it, and you will make a difference for kids who will go on to be the next generation of software developers.

cji• 13 years ago

My 7 year old and I have been working together on the Super Scratch book from No Starch and he's having a blast. When he asks "Can we program now?" instead of asking to watch a TV show, it's an awesome feeling. With things like Scratch and now Minecraft (which he also loves) on the Raspberry Pi, it's great to see so many resources for kids that go beyond the BASIC programming I didn't start learning until I was a few years older than him.

mckoss• 13 years ago

When many of us started using computers, all you could do with them was learn to program them. There were relatively few distractions of video games, or the Internet to draw your focus away.

Today's computers are so engaging as a communications and entertainment device, many young people are not exposed to the possibility of using the computer as a creative tool.

Learning to program is just one such activity to get the creative juices flowing in the next generation. Learning to use a computer to write a paper, make a presentation or build a spreadsheet are fine; but the power a computer can unleash has much more potential for creativity and originality when students are taught to instruct the computer directly.

The early learn-to-program sites are focused on learning programming languages. This should evolve into more sophisticated environments where higher level constructs are made readily available (e.g., graphical environments, data storage and communication features).

It's exciting because we can also bring the social element into the equation to create for and with your friends and family.

jschulenklopper2• 13 years ago

The pages at http://www.code.org/learn could also include a reference to the Raspberry Pi and the foundation behind it: http://www.raspberrypi.org/about.

> We want to see it being used by kids all over the world to learn programming.

It used to be a lot more expensive than $40 to give a child access to a computer that (s)he could program and tinker with...

motters• 13 years ago

I mostly agree with the gist of the video in that learning to program is empowering and can sometimes result in a job. However, the type perk-laden of working environments shown are unrealistic, and limited to large companies such as Google or Facebook.

antirez• 13 years ago

This no-profit IMHO should focus on creating a free, cross-platform, awesome system similar to Codea iPad app [1], that is, the BASIC of 80s. Everything not in the same line is too boring.

I've a very very positive experience with load81 [2], something I wrote almost solely for my son. In the latest months and thanks to this program my son learned to write Lua code and we are having a lot of fun.

I don't think it would be possible without a system that makes drawing a circle or checking where the mouse pointer is trivial.

[1] http://twolivesleft.com/Codea/

[2] https://github.com/antirez/load81

gamebit07• 13 years ago

Programming only does not help you think, there are several other disciplines that help you think. Philosophy/Logic/Sociology IMHO does it better. If industry needs more programmers, for economic growth, this does not mean kids should be brainwashed to learn to code. And even after learning to code, what do you do, an average programmers life goes just copy pasting stuff.

Google/SO customize copy and paste. Thats what I have been doing. I wonder if I actually think to solve problems while coding or just pile patterns of text, place proper settings and API keys.

Having said all above, Deep within I believe hackers are like painters(Read pg's great essay - http://www.paulgraham.com/hp.html), for hacking is like painting, would you want every one to be a painter? If not why everyone a programmer? Why learn to code? Programming or Painting is not mathematics nor reading writing skills, i can live happily without learning how to paint and how to write codes. Coding is NOT an essential life skill, there are many who have been living without and will continue to live. I won't learn programming because i don't require it.

I feel sad, on such brainwashing. And starting with steve job's quote about programming, is like doing a ferrari promo by Michael Jordon. I would have been happier, had they got something from woz.

Michael Moore come up with a documentary please.

dbh937• 13 years ago

everyone might not end up painting, but to extend the analogy, most schools have art classes.

rodolphoarruda• 13 years ago

I'm a manager. I can read code (PHP and C#) to some extent, but I can't code anything. I tried to learn it several times, but the syntax and all its curly braces were simply too complex to me. A bit frustrated, I decided to move one step up in the stack and tried to understand software at a "macro level", architecture, paradigms etc. I wanted to be able to make IT decisions based on concepts I found easier to grasp at that higher level. It was equally hard. But there is one thing I got from the learning process that I really liked and kept alive in my head for future use: the notions of abstraction and generalization. I'm thankful I learned this. I see value in applying it in my life. If the idea behind the widespread of teaching/learning how to code, involves concepts like those I mentioned, then I think it is super valid.

elbear3• 13 years ago

If you still want to learn how to code, try with different languages. Python is a favourite for people starting out with programming, for example.

te_chris2• 13 years ago

I really hope that barely-disguised copy of an LCD sound system song in there involved royalties being paid to the band.

rgarcia• 13 years ago

It's turtles all the way down. I love LCD, but here are examples of things James Murphy lifted:

the fall telephone thing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEOtckaZtLg#t=0m36s pretty distinctive way to say "i'm tapped" used in movement: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6MIChyCBAU#t=0m43s

in general his vocal style and delivery alternate between mark e smith from the fall and brian eno. really not a bad thing in my book, but still not entirely original.

homosapien by peter shelley: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HwmO_GZfzI sounds like the basis of north american scum: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jmm14g4cAFc

there's also the more than passing similarity between somebody's calling me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRCAuao67F4 and iggy pop's nightclubbing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3OaMZojJRg

all i want http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6BYCcy5aeo is pretty much bowie's heroes.

te_chris2• 13 years ago

I understand it's just culture, appropriation is how culture develops. That being said, that piece of music used in this is obviously just a rip off of Dance Yrself Clean, with a small modality change.

rocky1138• 13 years ago

This is all well and great, and my comment is meant in no way to belittle these efforts.

What good programmers have a lot of, though, is self-discipline, initiative, and patience. If we can teach kids those core skills, they can use them to learn programming later or excel in any other profession they choose.

JacksonGariety• 13 years ago

I showed this to my high school programming class not two hours ago. They weren't impressed until Gaben showed up. What does this say about inspiring students to code? It syas that Minecraft has probably done more for the Java than Sun Microsystems ever did.

dinkumthinkum8• 13 years ago

Well, shocker, kids are more into games than licensing collaboration software to other businesses ...

beatpanda• 13 years ago

Bubble, bubble, toil and trouble.

We're all going to look supremely stupid for things like this in ~2 years.

tn13• 13 years ago

Wrongly Done. Do kids really care about Bill Gates and the guy who created Valve ?

Show them some Pixar movie and tell them how those movies were made with technology. Tell them how technology enables sports bring people whom they can relate with. Not Zukerberg or Gates.

moccajoghurt• 13 years ago

Coding is an incredibly frustrating and hard path and I doubt that coding will become more popular on a professional level. There probably can be more hobby programmers that code some simple stuff but there is NO WAY coding can become some kind of popular mainstream hobby.

bjoe_lewis• 13 years ago

Seriously, do you think inspiring the students with the amount of money, 'they' earned with code is a good idea?

ehmuidifici• 13 years ago

That's a cool intiative, But we have to consider that all companies that support the initiative arent there for free.

Theres a commercial interest in encouraging kids to code: cheaper manpower in the future.

onedev2• 13 years ago

I think the video was great and people are over analyzing it. The following is what I got out of the video because I didn't over-analyze it like most people are doing:

(3) You potentially have the opportunity to affect many people in very positive ways through the software that you develop.

(4) EVEN if you don't pursue a career in programming, it can help you understand its implications in many OTHER seemingly unrelated fields. And it will help you develop critical thinking skills.

(5) It can be a learned skill like any other and there's no need to be intimidated by it.

Zuck, Bill Gates, Jack Dorsey In Short Film To Inspire Kids To Learn How To Code

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