Developer CEO vs Sales Guy CEO

http://jmlite.tumblr.com/post/38548502524/developer-ceo-vs-sales-guy-ceo

by jusben1369 • 14 years ago

144 66 14 years ago

jmlite.tumblr.com

Interesting, and perhaps related, is the tendency of people who aren't socially inclined (and tend not to enjoy small-talk) to employ the ask-a-million questions technique. This is how many-an-engineer can muscle through the most awkward social interactions with ease. The upsides of this approach are: 1) you will seem genuinely interested and come across as personable, and 2) you get to learn new things.

wsc981• 14 years ago

As someone who generally doesn't enjoy smalltalk, I wonder what is this "ask-a-million questions" technique. Is it just asking random questions and seeking what comes up?

dirtyaura• 14 years ago

People usually like you, if you are interested in a topic that they like. As many geeks have natural curiosity and can be genuinely interested in many things, you can use this as a way to do smalltalk if you have hard time to enjoy the smalltalk: ask questions about topics the other person is interested in (be it their work, fashion, cars, music, tech, whatever) and let the other person do the talking: they enjoy their time, you learn about new topics, and you don't feel uncomfortable about social situations.

amy_seqmedia2• 14 years ago

Why must an engineer not be socially inclined? Must curiosity and social aptitude be mutually exclusive?

My experience with developer-type leaders and sales-type leaders really breaks down to this: the developer builds a solid foundation and finds the product-market fit for it, the sales-oriented person projects the future they want others to believe in. One is slightly more logic-based, the other emotional. Some people can do both. That's rare.

freework• 14 years ago

I've found that theres a certain "turning off your brain" that has to occur to be socially successful. Most technically inclined people have a habit of using their brains a lot. Not that it's totally impossible, but it's hard. I'm a socially awkward technology person. When the moon is aligned properly, I can function fairly normally in social situations, but most of time I over-think too much and come off as weird.

jjb123• 14 years ago

Don't mean to seem skeptical, but I doubt this approach comes across as "genuinely interested."

qeorge• 14 years ago

Tip: if you're like me and not great at small-talk and so you find yourself falling into the ask-a-million-questions trap, try this.

Follow your mundane questions with a form of "do you like it?". It will usually break the conversation right out of 20-questions mode.

Example:

    A: What is your major?
    B: English
    A: Do you like it?
    B: Well, yes, but what most people don't understand about English majors is...

I picked this up on Reddit, and it really works. Give it a try!

dpatrick86• 14 years ago

I like it!

TDL• 14 years ago

Interesting technique, granted it might lead to some awkward answers (but sometimes those are the most honest.)

nostrademons2• 14 years ago

That helps, but what a socially-adept person is usually looking for is for you to make a statement that relates their answer back to yourself and then gives them an opportunity to follow up:

  A: What is your major?
  B: English
  A: Oh, cool, I took an English course in college.  Probably nowhere near as detailed
   as your studies, but I enjoyed it.
  B: Oh?  Which course?
  A: Science fiction.
  B: Never took that one.  Which books did you read?
  A: A bunch of Heinlein, some Ursula LeGuin.
  B: I never liked Heinlein - thought he was a sexist pig.  I love LeGuin though.

The problem with asking a lot of questions is that there's unequal emotional investment between a question and an answer: the answerer is putting themselves out there a lot more than the questioner. (This is one reason why he who asks the questions controls the conversation.) If you're trying to build a relationship, this feels very awkward. Instead, the point of most conversations is to find & build a connection between the two people, one that lets both of them feel safe simply volunteering information and knowing that the other person is interested. By relating topics back to yourself, you a.) give both parties a chance to ask questions, and b.) show that you're in the same boat as them, and so they can feel free to open up to you.

Notice that conversations between close friends rarely have questions - they consist of people taking turns volunteering new information, often rather animatedly if they have good rapport with each other. Also look at Hacker News comment threads: people rarely ask direct questions, they just contribute additional information along the same lines as the original comment.

ansgri• 14 years ago

It might be a bit dangerous with some kind of people: when I'm telling I'm doing something the answer would always be a mixture of 'Of course not, the results are nowhere as good as they should be' and 'Of course yes, or I wouldn't do it'. Either component a bit angry.

And I presume there are other such people in the industry.

zaidf2• 14 years ago

Really? When I am not socially inclined, I tend to just keep quiet and for me, that is most comforting(though I'll admit some people find it odd).

On the other hand, I ask the most questions when I am genuinely curious about something in which case I am inclined to talk out of natural curiosity than social necessity.

namank• 14 years ago

Sales CEO: Ctrl+f "economoics" on your LinkedIn profile.

I think the difference is in your end goal. From the article, it seems that the sales CEO is more interested in the person, hence questions about the flow of conversation while the developer CEO seems interested in the product and domains that have a structure associated with them.

saosebastiao• 14 years ago

It is awesome that a Sales Guy CEO can be this perceptive and open minded. It is hard enough to find a Sales Guy CEO that isn't openly condescending to technical people...let alone one that listens to them instead of barking commands.

adrianhoward• 14 years ago

... and of course the Sales guys have the opposite experience with Dev CEOs ;-)

joonix• 14 years ago

How does one without sales experience break into tech sales (b2b)?

rdl• 14 years ago

I'd probably start as a sales engineer or maybe as a consultant.

Sales Engineers range from almost "a developer who also talks to customers to get requirements and feedback" to "a submarine salesperson" (i.e. the Palantir Forward Deployed Engineer). If you want to learn sales, obviously pick one where you're in contact with existing salespeople and ideally where you get paid a % of sales on top of salary.

Having a strong technical background does help in selling some b2b products, especially developer products. (or really, "having strong domain knowledge does help in selling a domain-specific b2b product", i.e. being an MD selling medical IT)

carterschonwald3• 14 years ago

Talk with people. It's really just that simple!

I'm stumbling into picking up b2b skills myself. That said, I'm lucky that I have a super technical biz where I'd only allow core engineers to be running the b2b sales convo with customers.

nanijoe• 14 years ago

As if b2b Customer actually involve Engineers in the decision making process

carterschonwald3• 14 years ago

I should also clarify that I mean that for what I'm doing at wellposed, the individuals representing wellposed in a sales conversation essentially need to be the core engineers at wellposed.

amy_seqmedia2• 14 years ago

It's all about who you know. Go to parties and meetups all of the time, then go to work where all the other talented people work. Rinse & repeat for best results.

jusben13692• 14 years ago

Assuming you're a developer......Pick a Y Combinator company that has gotten to the point where they are hiring sales people (ie probably 18 months + old) PG has a mantra that you should hire engineers/developers to do a lot (all?) tasks - non engineering ones. I think you'll therefore find companies with a pre-disposed culture to hiring developers into sales roles.

If you do this try and ensure that your boss or at least whomever runs sales overall does have a strong selling background. Like any discipline you'll want a great mentor - especially at your first gig. The recommendation to start as an SE is also a great idea.

philfreo• 14 years ago

Come join Elastic (https://elasticsales.com/) and we'll teach you.

circa• 14 years ago

not sure why but the title reminds me of www.thewebsiteisdown.com

MichaelApproved• 14 years ago

I thought the same thing. I only recently found that series and I thought this link could be to a new episode. I wonder if a link to that series would be acceptable content on HN or would it be one of those things that should stay on Reddit.

I'd say, since it was so popular and well done, there's room on HN for it but I'm curious to hear what others think.

Edit: clickable link for those interested http://www.thewebsiteisdown.com

miahi• 14 years ago

Developer CEO thinking = "How do I make this work?"

Sales CEO thinking = "How do I get his money?"

For many tech people, the product is the goal - getting some techie thing going. The other things (like: funding, getting some type of customer) are just tasks that have to be done but they don't really know or care about. Between them, the tech people are quite open (as the tech culture is based on Internet and open source) so any kind of question is fine - and when they find somebody that knows how to do the "other tasks" they try to get into details, as they don't have them.

For many sales people, the customer is the goal - attracting the customer to get his money. The other things (like: product/tech) are just tasks that have to be done but are done by someone else. Usually sales people are not talking shop (customers) between them, even if they work at the same company, so every time you ask them something they immediately wonder why did you ask that question, what is your hidden purpose and how they can benefit from it.

jusben13692• 14 years ago

I would say in this case our goals were identical. Meet with the hope that striking up a relationship could help our organizations either now or in the longer term. If not, perhaps the personal professional connection would be beneficial at some future point. So our goals were the same but our paths quite different.

zaidf2• 14 years ago

For many tech people, the product is the goal - getting some techie thing going.

I agree with the first part("the product is the goal") but your second part("getting some techie thing going") sounds like one of the biggest myths. May be it was true at one point but building a great product no longer is seen as a tech-only undertaking. It requires talking to customers, identifying needs, understanding the quantitative value of what you are building in addition to the technical stuff.

SatvikBeri2• 14 years ago

I would actually break successful CEOs into Developer CEO, Product CEO, and Sales CEO.

The Sales CEO tries to figure out what problems people have, and convince them that his company/product can solve those problems.

The Product CEO takes the hundreds of problems that exist in the market and come up with a product that solves a decent subset of those problems.

The Developer CEO figures out how to actually build such a product. They're responsible for solving hard technical problems and pushing the limits of what's possible.

(There is also a lot of overlap-a good CEO is usually an extreme generalist)

oscargrouch2• 14 years ago

You are right. The old school industrial(and cartesian) thinking of separate things by classes, but imposing them to people just leaded to bureocracy , and people who cant see the whole scenario well, leading to bad decisions being made..

Its sad that our education systems still are compartimentized by areas.. with some avant-garde leading from some institutions of course being the exception..

we need broad and sistemic abrangence of knowledge, information and perspective.. the world is much more complicated these days.. it cant stand the expert alienation neurosis anymore.. or we all gonna fail to excel and live in the human kind golden future we all spect

temac2• 14 years ago

This is a good description of sales people, product people and developer people, but how does it relates to CEOs?

timr3• 14 years ago

"I, on the other hand, find myself answering questions and wondering 'That’s a great question. I wonder why he asked that question?....Whereas he based the value of the meeting on the quality of the data I focus on how much I think I got an accurate snapshot of how the person thinks and operates....It did make me wonder if the best leaders are capable of doing both."

Yes, they are.

Dear, "Sales Guy CEO": if you again find yourself in the situation where you're in a conversation with a deeply analytical person, it's probably in your best interest not to assume that your conversation partner is socially clueless just because she is asking good, specific, actionable questions. If they're smart enough to ask good questions, it probably means they're smart enough to read your reactions and personality, as well. You don't corner the market on that particular skill.

Honestly...this is why "sales guys" get a reputation for arrogance amongst nerds. People who grew up as social outcasts are often keenly aware of the social dynamics of the world around them.

dmor2• 14 years ago

I didn't get the impression from the tone of this post that there was anything adversarial about their meeting, that the OP was saying he was better at social skills than the technical CEO, or that the OP was even judging his companion's approach, so much as observing differences and trying to learn something from them.

Your comment "you don't corner the market in this particular skill" is the most interesting part, it sounds like you are irritated that the assumption that technical and analytical people are somehow less sensitive but then your comment exhibits exactly the lack of understanding and immediate condescension which earns this perception. I doubt you intended it, but it's something to think about.

timr3• 14 years ago

"it sounds like you are irritated that the assumption that technical and analytical people are somehow less sensitive but then your comment exhibits exactly the lack of understanding and immediate condescension which earns this perception. I doubt you intended it, but it's something to think about."

Well, that's a fine ad hominem, but it doesn't address what I wrote. I'm clearly irritated by the post; that's not a mystery. But to argue that I'm being patronizing, you have to ignore what I'm actually saying: we all have innate social skills, and that the author starts from the opposite premise. He's trying to figure out why this "developer CEO" is so different, when the difference appears to be trivial (one person is asking analytical questions).

The original post was clearly phrased in an adversarial manner:

"Sales Guy" vs "Developer Guy"

"I, on the other hand..."

"Whereas he based the value of the meeting..."

"Where he took my generalized questions and drove them to specific topics - that was the interesting part. That let me know what’s on his mind."

Plus, there was the hint of a "gotcha" tone:

"That will give me the context for assessing future activities by his company."

Basically, he's starting from the premise that this other person is somehow not making these social judgments; that they're not building a mental model of how their conversational partner operates. That's wrong, and it's (IMO) arrogant: his thinking rests upon the implicit assumption of The Other as a stranger. Not everyone makes this assumption -- many (if not most) people will start from an assumption of similarity on matters of human nature.

hahnfeld2• 14 years ago

Why so defensive? This post was great and merely pointed out stylistic differences between "sales-y" and "tech-y" leaders. I don't think anyone suggested "corning the market" with ANY skill.

For the record, great salespeople are very often also "deeply analytical." In fact, having hired & managed lot's of salespeople, I'd suggest listening, observation & analytical skills are the differentiating factor between the good and the great.

PS - the unfair judgements regarding arrogance is a two-way street.

BallinBige• 14 years ago

I think developer CEO's have a reputation for arrogance too..

statictype• 14 years ago

Nowhere did he hint at anything about being socially clueless.

He came off as curious about how developers think and operate and very open-minded about learning from it.

Unlike your comment here.

bravura• 14 years ago

He's taking a systematic approach to de-risking areas of the business that he doesn't feel comfortable with.

This is the same thing you do when you jump into a large code-base.

He's resisting the temptation to use sales skill on himself. Being able to create a reality distortion field is a useful skill for a CEO, but this skill shouldn't be trained on yourself.

When someone asks you a question you don't know the answer to (about your market, etc.), take note! Don't be that guy who just says: "Stupid investor. He doesn't get it." and ignores the question. Give the smartest reply you have, but let your lack of knowledge become a weakly held hypothesis. Then, attempt to validate or controvert this hypothesis.

In short, as a CEO, don't sell yourself too much. It blindsides you against what you should be learning.

timr3• 14 years ago

I've been trying to figure out why this piece sticks in my craw.

I am, for all intents and purposes, Developer Guy. I'm analytical. I write code. I solve problems, often with math. I've been "this way" my whole life. I've also been in many tens of thousands of conversations, with all kinds of people. Yet, despite having been in many conversations about everything and nothing at all, I've never been tempted to question my conversational partner's ability to reason analytically based on their decision to ask non-technical questions:

- If we talk about the weather, I assume we're making small talk.

- If we talk about family and friends, I assume that they want to talk about something with greater personal meaning.

- If we talk about their vintage peruvian bottle cap collection, I assume that they really like peruvian bottle caps.

Likewise, when someone comes up to me and asks me some very intense technical question, I don't assume that they aren't also evaluating my tone, posture, volume, poise, choice of words, etc. We're all human. It's all part of the game.

Sales Guy seems puzzled that Developer Guy isn't spending time on non-technical issues. But how does he know that? Is he assuming that Developer Guy doesn't care? Developer guy might just be intensely interested in sales guy's specific knowledge. It happens.

What strikes me about this writing is not that Developer Guy and Sales Guy are different, but that Sales Guy is reconciling a stereotype of Developer Guy with his actual experience. And that's bothersome.

orangethirty• 14 years ago

I've been trying to figure out why this piece sticks in my craw.

Because it makes the Sales CEO (whatever the fuck that means) sound like a Douche CEO. If he can stereotype people from a conversation, I can surely stereotype him from a blog post. Though that also makes me a Douche CEO...

In all seriousness, stop labeling people. Treat them as human beings. See the person behind the title. Most of the time, you will find someone who is geniunely smart, but absolutely has no fucking idea about what he/she is doing (like the rest of the world). Be it a sales person, a developer, a mechanic, nurse, lawyer, or a janitor. Human beings.

sskates3• 14 years ago

What? Did we read the same post? I thought the post was about how the Developer CEO's approach was to get data points and the Sales Guy CEO's approach was to get a read on the other person. Where did you read that he thought Developer CEO's approach was not as good as Sales Guy CEO's approach?

Perhaps you're taking the line "he based the value of the meeting on the quality of the data" to mean that Developer CEO was evaluating Sales Guy CEO as a person based on the quality of his responses and that it's a social faux pas to do so. As I understand that line, he meant that the Developer CEO's objective was to get value out of the conversation by getting high quality data. FWIW, I'm Developer CEO and I do the exact same thing.

keeptrying2• 14 years ago

The developer CEO is trying to prove or disprove the model in his own head.

Whereas the Sale Guy CEO is trying to allow a model to form in his head.

I think you will learn more using the second method. But for a programmer to accept the second view is very hard. It requires us to shut the eff up.

nostrademons2• 14 years ago

Which one are you doing with your comment? ;-)

I didn't get that impression - I got the impression that both CEOs are trying to form a model in their heads. But the developer CEO is building his from the bottom up - he seeks information on the details, and then will let general principles coalesce out of that data. The sales CEO is building his from the top down - he wants to understand the gestalt of the conversation first, and then he'll fill in the details later.

Computers teach us to pay attention to the details first, because they're very unforgiving if we get them wrong, while people will often fill them in for us if we provide a compelling-enough top-level vision. I find I thought much like the sales CEO up through college, while I'm much more inclined now to trust my intuition to produce a top-level picture once I've assembled a bunch of disparate facts.

sskates3• 14 years ago

Thank you! The bottom up vs top down comparison really crystallized the meaning of the post for me.

keeptrying2• 14 years ago

With a bottom up approach you are trying to prove or disprove the model in your head. Or at least only slightly mold it.

There's no way to learn more than that because you've already fixed the foundation. This is a good strategy when you've already been working on something for a while and you have made some firm bets or if you've done this thing before to some relative success.

The sales guys is usually going to be better if you really want to understand a new customer from ground up.

Ie direction matters.

nell• 14 years ago

From my experience, the sales guys seem to recognize the importance of engineering and product. It's we engineers who generally fail to see the value of sales. I cite this blog and this HN thread as evidence.

DiabloD3• 14 years ago

I don't understand this article. I've reread it twice, and all I can glaen from it is "sales guy CEO" doesn't know how to ask questions, or is not of the analytical mindset.

Steve Jobs was the best salesman ever... but he was clearly of the analytical mindset, and not a developer CEO. Steve Jobs knew how to ask all the right questions.

I mean, yes, I know its unfair to compare people to Steve Jobs, but what am I missing?

hahnfeld2• 14 years ago

Jobs was analytical? Brilliant, sure. But, perhaps more instinctual than analytical. Witness the endless tales of him not asking for input, not listening, not taking the advice of (undoubtedly analytical) others. Add killer instinct & stubbornness and you have something entirely different than either of the CEO's at breakfast.

acchow• 14 years ago

Vapid and hollow. An anecdote about one particular "developer" CEO's style compared to one particular "Sales" CEO's style.

Thanks for wasting my time.

kayoone• 14 years ago

Having been a Developer CEO, for me the best setup would be a Product Guy CEO, a Sales Guy CMO and a Developer Guy CTO. I want to focus on the tech, still have a say in the product and marketing areas but at the end of the day i want to build the thing from a technical perspective. YMMV

As the CEO there are just so many other things you have to take of, especially in small businesses. I have done it and always felt its stealing my time from coding and getting work done.

anuraj• 14 years ago

There are few generalists. A good CEO is somebody who understands his limitations and keep his sides armed with best in breed personnel who are better at tackling those limitations. A some what developer+product CEO here :)

Developer CEO vs Sales Guy CEO

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