Things I wish someone had told me about life after college

http://zackshapiro.com/post/22010015010/9-things-i-wish-someone-had-told-me-about-life-after

by kine • 14 years ago

203 131 14 years ago

kleinsch• 14 years ago

100% agree about keeping hobbies going (or developing new ones). If your whole life is going to work and hanging out with the friends you made in college/high school, you're not going to make a lot of new friends.

I joined a triathlon team five years after college and have had an amazing time. I'm not an athlete at all, but nobody cares - half the team is just there to meet people and have fun. I really wish I'd gotten into it (or something similar) straight out of college. My social life would have been a lot better.

kine4• 14 years ago

"I'm not an athlete at all, but nobody cares - half the team is just there to meet people and have fun."

Totally what's important

Shenglong• 14 years ago

Keep those hobbies going. Keep playing soccer, or pool, or surfing. Keep doing yoga. Keep reading. Keep doing you. You’ll develop some great friends around those interests.

One of my most resounding fears is meeting people in different fields. In school, it's easy. I can go to a party, go out to a club with friends, or just sit down at a library table with a stranger and meet someone new.

Out of school, it seems those opportunities erode... and the majority of friends are either coworkers or friends from the past :(

For those of you who have graduated recently, how have you dealt with this? Not that tech friends aren't great - but diversity is wonderful.

kine4• 14 years ago

I think joining a group of people is a great way to make new friends around an interest and that's usually industry agnostic.

Usually if I hear someone surfs, I'll invite them to surf pretty quickly and then follow up later about actually doing it. I've made a few really good friends this way.

College is interesting because it's forcibly social. Everyone is happy to make new friends but in the professional world, I've found just the opposite to be true. People are pretty set with the friends they have, most people seem to want something from them, many think.

That's why I really love making friends around interests because you start as that as your base rather than the commonality of an industry.

pavel_lishin• 14 years ago

I haven't graduated recently, but I moved from Texas to New York City three years ago, and I've met most of my current friends through Reddit meetups and IRC channel.

There are general weekly meetups in a bar, and other meetups catering to more specific interests - rock climbing, board games, programming, etc.

Reddit itself may get some (well deserved) flack on HN, but it's just a community made up of people, and you can't forget the inverse of Sturgeon's law.

stretchwithme4• 14 years ago

Meetups are a great way to meet people.

And if you can't find one that interests you, start one yourself. You have to pay but you get to pick the location, making it most convenient for you. You actually come out ahead. And most people really appreciate that you made the effort.

kaiuhl• 14 years ago

Share interests is spot on. To add:

People should share their friends and acquaintances more often. Mixing disparate groups of friends and quickly introducing new acquaintances to existing friends is a surefire way to build a community in the city you live in. This may seem old fashioned, but older folks need mixers—essentially friend referrals. If you get this ball rolling, it can cascade and you'll end up meeting people you truly connect with and share interests with. The easiest way to start is simply having a party where you allow coworkers to bring their friends. I've made really good friends by finding people that enjoy backpacking as much as I do and spending a night in the woods with them (for better or worse, heh).

My wife and I are having a Christmas party tonight where 40-50 people are coming. Hopefully out of that, two or more people will become better friends. 100% of these people are friends she or I have made after college, predominately through other people willing to share. For reference, we're in our late 20s.

Simply put, it's on you to build community after college. It doesn't get forced upon you like in a university.

nostrademons2• 14 years ago

Also, make friends with the friends of your friends of the past. (If that made any sense...)

I find that the bulk of the people I meet who are not in tech are friends of my college acquaintances. I went to a liberal arts college, and then my path diverged from my classmates rather drastically after college. So most of my college friends are humanities types, either going to law school or med school or struggling to find employment. And their friends tend to be like them.

the_economist• 14 years ago

Basketball is a surefire way to meet people in any town, because it puts 10 strangers in the same spot and requires 5 of them to work together. If you play regularly at the same court, after a year you'll know 50 people pretty well.

Of course, your status among those people will be determined by how good you are at basketball and nothing else :)

InclinedPlane• 14 years ago

One word: volunteering.

jtheory4• 14 years ago

Quite a few people find a life partner and/or a best friend or two during college -- if you're lucky, these people won't go down the same career path that you do, and you'll have an automatic link to new potential friends that way.

It's important to find ways to expand the people you meet, though, and nurture the connections you value even though you may move to a different city, etc..

Getting new real friends as an adult is trickier than at university -- most of the other adults you meet already have their circle of friends, routines of interaction, etc., and even if you click, spending time with you would mean spending less time with their existing friends and activities.

iammc• 14 years ago

From personal experience: don't do anything for the money, ever.

kine4• 14 years ago

Absolutely :)

nakedrobot2• 14 years ago

Except, you know, when you are $2 away from being thrown onto the street. Pride only goes so far.

lalmalang2• 14 years ago

or if its a lot of money -- you're probably under-valuing what you're learning (assuming a semi-rational labour market..)

bradleyy• 14 years ago

My dad always said, "Son, if it's worth doing, it's worth doing for money."

gvb• 14 years ago

I believe the equivalent quote for the OP would be more like "Son, if there is money in it, it must be worth doing." Quite a different thing.

eli_gottlieb7• 14 years ago

That just sounds wrong somehow. Money is social. It's what you use with people you don't know, or people you want to bleed.

nealabq2• 14 years ago

Except for short-term consulting gigs.

subsystem• 14 years ago

The key is to keep your expenses "normal".

raverbashing2• 14 years ago

Don't do it for the money, really

But when times get tough, it's nice to have something to pay the bills

Bottom line, pick what you like, but something that pays some money, and you're good at

philwelch3• 14 years ago

Unless you're broke.

baby• 14 years ago

No one prepared me to college and I fucked up big times my first years. Makes me want to write a post about it too.

kine4• 14 years ago

Do it!

elstevo• 14 years ago

I've found that it's easy to let your life become unfocused after leaving college. Up until graduation, you always had built-in goals on which to focus: pass that test, find scholarships/jobs, graduate, etc...

After graduating and finding a job, I was suddenly without any pressing objectives in my life. What's next? Retirement? That's way too far off (probably). I was working and living my life day-to-day, not unhappy, but sort of drifting without direction.

As cliché as it sounds, trying to answer the question "where do I want to be in 1, 5, 10 years" honestly helped. I thought about it for a while and came up with some vague ideas. Every once in a while, I do a mental progress check and that helps me see past the daily routine to something greater.

guard-of-terra• 14 years ago

For the most of my life having those external "goais" and having to meet them was extremelly painful and frustrating for me.

You would not believe how happy the lack of "objectives" made me. I can just work, have my salary and not be bothered. It's like as you was under cripppling pain for all of your life and then suddently it is relieved forever.

eli_gottlieb7• 14 years ago

Strange, I found exactly the opposite. I went to industry for a while because I was tired of goal-seeking and working hard all the damn time, but actually being there made me feel pressured as all hell.

What I really should have done was exploit my white male upper-middle class American privilege and travel for a while. After how much I burned myself out finishing undergrad the way I did, my parents were actually quite willing to fund it.

But no, I felt the need to get a job and try to "build an adult life". I had said, "I want my 9-5". I use the scare-quotes because I discovered that short of being married, with a house, with kids or dogs, there's basically no such thing, and any attempt to treat a real job as a 9-5 for funding your social life will inevitably collapse.

Now that I'm "back" in academia on the research-school side (which is, ironically, the stage I was already at by the end of undergrad, mostly), I'm actually a good deal happier. I was also pretty happy with my second industrial job because I got to live where I wanted and work from home, but I actually really like research and feel far more comfortable working hard in pursuit of an achievable goal (publish stuff, write thesis, accumulate credit-points, graduate) rather than just to maintain a hard-working image.

Big Life Lesson: you need to find a lifestyle and environment suited to you, and you also need to take responsibility for how you run your own life. I could easily get sucked back into pathological workaholism like many graduate students, even though I felt crushed by having to keep busy for eight straight hours in an industrial job. The right work environment is one that makes me feel want to put in effort, but I also have to cut myself off and go have fun at some point.

Hmm... that last paragraph sounds too pat.

prophetjohn3• 14 years ago

This is one of the biggest things for me post-graduation. My life has recently been so consumed by achieving one big goal. Once it's accomplished, I just kind of wonder..."what's next?" I mean, I have a big interview at a top tech company on Monday and I've got a standing offer at my current job where I can be comfortable, but it's such a big transition to not have some large, looming goal to work toward.

jarek2• 14 years ago

I had a similar experience and judging by other comments it seems pretty common. School is really good for this because it provides both goals and immediate deadlines. You want to graduate and to do that you have to do this assignment for Thursday and that lab for Monday. In engineering school it's particularly bad since you only have to decide on 5 or 10 electives throughout the degree, and there's usually common easy ones a lot of people know about and take. I still struggle with anything that doesn't have a drop-dead date - and it feels like less things in Real Life™ have one than in school. But recognizing the problem is a part of the battle.

Heh, I actually dug up the comment I also mentioned this in, written back in February 2011: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2186121

lalmalang2• 14 years ago

I dont usually bring it up, but curious - am I the only one who finds a blurb like this a bit unseemly:

  If you enjoyed this post, I’d be humbled if you’d follow me on Twitter.

paulgb• 14 years ago

I think it's an intentional play on the infamous "you should follow me on twitter" sign-off popularized by Dustin Curtis[1] and propagated by bloggers who don't understand the limitations of split-testing.

[1] http://www.dustincurtis.com/you_should_follow_me_on_twitter....

stretchwithme4• 14 years ago

It struck me as a little strange, as most people say they'd be honored to have your attention, not humbled.

hamzilla• 14 years ago

The comfort zone one is important. I know a lot of people that stop growing their skills because the money is flowing and it's easy. When you stop growing, it's probably time to move on.

nealabq2• 14 years ago

Remember how those first few weeks of college were intensely social. You meet a lot of people you'll know the rest of your life. It's a critical time. I recommend:

Social > academic. But they're intertwined, so work hard, and work with others in your core area. Be helpful and smart and humble. Don't worry about your non-core subjects (let others help you).

Don't go nuts with freedom. Go to parties, but drink very little, avoid drugs, don't get caught up in sex. It's fun, but save it for later.

Don't go back home. Don't have a girlfriend back home. Don't have a girlfriend at all, this is a time for lots and lots of friends.

Avoid toxic people.

objclxt• 14 years ago

> "Don't have a girlfriend at all, this is a time for lots and lots of friends"

You seem to be suggesting the two are incompatible, but in my experience that's not really the case at all...

aes256• 14 years ago

Of course being in a relationship and having other friends are not incompatible, but the time commitment, reordering of priorities, strain on your mental/physical/pecuniary resources will almost inevitably harm your relationships with other friends.

Not to mention being in a relationship with someone can lead to profound changes in a person's character, and those changes may not gel with existing friends...

usaar333• 14 years ago

Wait, GP is talking just about the first few weeks of college right?

If so, I can see some truth to this. I can't think of anytime in your life you'll ever again not only have no commitments, but also be surrounded by so many people who haven't yet formed (social) relationships. Makes sense to 100% focus on meeting people and building friendships -- it only gets harder going forward.

mbesto• 14 years ago

Go to parties, but drink very little, avoid drugs, don't get caught up in sex. It's fun, but save it for later. Don't have a girlfriend at all, this is a time for lots and lots of friends.

I personally think the opposite. It's your 20s, enjoy it while it lasts.

csmattryder• 14 years ago

Totally agree, everything in moderation, though.

I'd rather live with the regret of 'Oh I wish I hadn't done this/that/the other' than being 50 and looking back on my life regretting I didn't enjoy myself more.

raverbashing2• 14 years ago

I'd say, enjoy it, just be safe (don't endanger yourself)

And drugs are bad mmmkay. (I don't advocate, still, let's hope people know what's their limit)

Except the 'don't have a girlfriend' part, do have a girlfriend!

dhughes• 14 years ago

Health can rapidly fail and if you are unhealthy at 25 you'll be dead by 40.

Be as healthy as you can as early as you can because it doesn't get easier as you get older or have a family.

Bad habits are cumulative, you can't fix poor health just by stopping certain habits.

eshvk• 14 years ago

Exactly, I used to think and practice like the OP did. You find that all your friends start transitioning into couple things and you are a workaholic who doesn't have any interests outside of work. Sure, that is fun and it will be exciting to spend all your time solving the nth problem in your work BUT life is not just that. Life is experiencing everything, yeah all that yada yada about doing it in moderation holds obviously but still. You can't just live your entire life, hope to be interesting to a wide range of people encounter adventures if you isolate yourself and not do any of this!

sliverstorm2• 14 years ago

Don't have a girlfriend back home

Possibly one of my biggest regrets. I don't know that things would have worked out better otherwise, but objectively speaking it was one of my most foolish mistakes.

dinkumthinkum5• 14 years ago

I would say avoid all of this advice altogether. Make questionable decisions, having dramatic relationships, don't be a bore. :)

I mean it's one thing if all you want is for you to have a long life of just 9-5 mundane, workaday life. But that's not for everyone.

benhebert• 14 years ago

This month marks one year out of college for me. 2012 was the most productive year of my life.

The best advice that I could give anyone is,

"Don't be afraid to be yourself"

While in school a lot of this is defined for you, but the real world will challenge you in ways you haven't seen. Do not roll over for your job, friends, girlfriend, whatever.

If you don't know who you are or what you want (none of us really do), try as many different things as you can. Explore, learn, fail, succeed, cry, laugh... just experience things and find yourself.

justhw• 14 years ago

Not a main issue but this ... put everyone’s phone in a bag. Great conversations ensue. Seeing phones out around a table bothers me terribly.

larsberg• 14 years ago

> Your first job out of college won’t make you or break you

I disagree with this statement. Certainly, if you go to Google/Facebook/Microsoft/Apple, the choice doesn't matter and you can do whatever after you've learned how to work on real software.

But getting into games and many other fields can be astoundingly difficult even two years out of college, as it's difficult to overcome the "finance," "healthcare," or "consulting" tags once they're on your resume. For better or worse, employers usually only see new college grads as full of potential to do anything; after even a single stint at X, you're branded an X-person.

andreipop• 14 years ago

I'd love to have more employers pipe up and comment here.

I'm guessing that, although more challenging, changing gears is not altogether impossible (or even very difficult).

Certainly one should develop skills in an area that one is interested in impacting, but this kind of mentality breeds fear and risk aversion because new grads begin to see pursuing interesting opportunities as career risks versus character/skill building.

JagMicker3• 14 years ago

I think most recent college graduates have bigger issues than worrying about their 'self-branding'. It takes time, and, usually some experience, to build an identity. Sometimes you just have to 'wing-it' and see where that takes you. I'd bet that most employers wouldn't expect a kid fresh out of college to know his/her 'true calling'.

sraj• 14 years ago

As a manager, I tend to look for potential both when I review the resumes and when I talk to candidates. Most of my questions are open-ended and I try to see if they can bring some of their learnings to the field/role they want to shift to and if they have done their research on why they want to move to a particular field or role.

iyulaev• 14 years ago

Brand yourself as a generalist. It helps if you work for a company that does a whole gamut (from hardware to GUI-level software). Also do side projects in a totally different area from your work. I was (am?) a hw engineer but had no trouble selling myself as a software guy by emphasizing the software work I've done and my side projects. If you still remeber algos and datastructures you can blast through the interview once you get your foot in the door.

sliverstorm2• 14 years ago

Yes, but then you lose the ability to brand yourself as a specialist, and miss out on some of the more lucrative opportunities.

funkiee• 14 years ago

Be careful not to become too good in an area you don't like.

yoblin• 14 years ago

Very true. Your first job isn't going to make or break you, but you'd be surprised how many new grads stumble into an industry and are still working in it 5 years down the road. I was a programmer at a brokerage firm out of college, and after recently getting out of the industry a few jobs later, it'll take a while before my resume is really attractive to non-finance gigs.

j45• 14 years ago

The one fun one: If you think you're done learning, you're done.

prophetjohn3• 14 years ago

I just graduated last night, but this doesn't feel terribly enlightening to me. I don't know if I didn't have the typical college experience or if people like the author just tend to be more vocal about their experience because those in my position had a less rosy view of the whole thing. But it's obvious that I'm in a different group when I read stuff like

> There’s no more Spring break or three months off for summer.

When I was in college (feels weird to say it in the past tense), summer wasn't 3 months off. If I wasn't taking any classes, I was working full-time so that during the long semesters, I could work only part-time and still be able to pay rent. Spring break meant I could get a little boost to get me through until summer.

I just finished yesterday and I'm intensely relieved. I will have so much more free time than I've had the last several years. Maybe I can start a side project or contribute to open source. I'm playing a video game right now. A month ago I would've felt guilty because weekends were the only time I could catch up on homework.

My post-graduation plans? Seize all that extra free time! Start working out more. Go to that weekly Reddit poker night. Go to more concerts. Go to programmer meetups.

stretchwithme4• 14 years ago

It may take more than a day for all to be revealed.

prophetjohn3• 14 years ago

I sure hope so! I didn't mean to imply that I have it all figured out. But I have to wonder how much a post-college transition article applies to me when written from the perspective of a "traditional" college student. Or at least the type who was a student and only a student when in college since a lot of the transition difficulties are centered around having to work every day and so on.

scarecrowbob• 14 years ago

This resonates loudly with me-- I'm almost 35 and have been out of the university 5 years now.

On one hand, my wife paid her way though school and had a very similar experience of working FT (or several part-time) jobs).

It's only been since she graduated several years ago that (as a violin teacher) she's been able to schedule time into her life for things like vacations and the like.

On the other hand, I spent 10 years in the university, switching from CS to philosophy, getting an MA in English, and leaving a PhD in Literature after a couple of chapters in my dissertation. In that process there is a tremendous pressure to be constantly working on your project, and I simply don't have that now that I have been doing freelance web development.

Much as with my wife, the certainty of being able to find however much work I need has really allowed me to throttle back on feeling guilty when I'm not pushing forward on some project or other (or, perhaps, just allowed me to feel less guilt on pushing forward on non-remunerative projects like becoming a better musician or learning a new programming technique/technology without a direct short-term payoff).

If I could add anything to the OP, it'd be this: taking a full time job that doesn't mark seasons or develop you into some new person isn't inevitable. IMO, your plan to seize new found free time is much more profitable than giving into the flow of "Wednesday just being Wednesday".

ry0ohki• 14 years ago

Oddly, I felt like I had much more free time after college. When work ended at 5pm, I suddenly had this huge 7 hour window of time where I had no homework to work on, no projects etc... I started reading for fun, working out, doing side projects, and I still had time!

nostrademons2• 14 years ago

I felt the same, until I started seeing my job as not "Do what my boss tells me to" but as "Contribute something awesome to the world." That job is never done - there's always some other project you could be working on, some way you can make your product better, someone else you can help out.

On the plus side, it's a lot more fulfilling than feeling like you put in 8 hours for a boss so you can have 7 hours to yourself. It's like the distinction between work and play melts away and it's all play.

peterjmag• 14 years ago

If I may suggest one addition to your list of things to do with your newfound free time: travel! It can be really difficult to go on any real adventures while you're in school, especially when you're holding a job on top of that. Now that you're out and still young, go explore!

ChuckMcM• 14 years ago

Its true that post college will be different for different people. Life is different, but this last statement "My post-graduation plans? Seize all that extra free time! Start working out more. Go to that weekly Reddit poker night. Go to more concerts. Go to programmer meetups." is a restatement of the article author's point.

The author makes the first derivative version of that point, which is that one needs to actively live your life, but the expression is the same, deliberately go into life and make your way. Or more practically pick a direction and move out.

If you get through college, and many people do, and you still have no idea what you want to do, you are at a relative disadvantage with respect to your peers who are charging off into their destinies.

College makes sense as a program to get a degree, but that really only makes sense in the larger context of "with that degree I can then move on to this next thing and that gets me closer to ..." If you don't pick a direction and go there you will find 10, 20 or even 30 years go by and suddenly you start seeing that you are going to be dead eventually and wondering what it was you have done with your time.

the_cat_kittles• 14 years ago

Some positives I didn't realize about life after college:

- You have complete control over you choices. You did in college, but by choosing to go, you are forfeiting some of that I think, at least psychologically.

- There may be things about school in general that you hated, or thought were stupid, but never realized until you got some distance from them. I had this experience, I was filled with a warm glow for about a year when I realized this!

- You are in the "real" world. I hate this distinction, because it is not true, but it is still nice to know that the hopefully small part of your mind that subscribes to that distinction can now forget about it.

- You can use all your strengths to do what you want. Instead of trying to play the academic game, which limits the degree to which you can be resourceful, now you can use anything and everything to make things happen.

- You will learn a lot more about who you are, and your natural tendencies, since you have so much more freedom.

- I was, and still am surprised at how incredibly incomprehensibly vast and mysterious the world is. This was much more hidden to me in school.

This may not be true for everyone, or even for most, but I'm sure there are lots of people on HN who felt these things. To those of you on your way to graduation, I hope you aren't fearful. For me, it was probably the happiest transition of my life. That's not to say there weren't some of the most extreme difficulties, but overall, its been wonderful.

xk_id• 14 years ago

fuck, i need to graduate :)

Goladus4• 14 years ago

When people say academia is not the real world they generally mean a few things. "Real world" might not be dictionary-correct but this is what is meant:

1. Many of the problems you're forced to solve are contrived. They're practice problems and often the knowledge required to implement the solution has been provided to you already in classroom or textbooks.

2. You are evaluated on the academic quality of your work. In the "real world" you're evaluated on whether your work meets the needs of the customer and how well you present yourself.

3. In college you are rewarded based on how you are evaluated. In the real world you are not paid based on how well you are evaluated you are paid what you're able to sell or negotiate which is dependent on what your skills are worth (not just how well you perform them).

4. Basic needs (food/shelter) are paid for by someone else or on credit. This is not always true but often is. In the real world there is pressure to provide for oneself.

eli_gottlieb7• 14 years ago

I agree on the first three points. I disagree on the fourth.

The fourth point is, ironically, most true for those who manage to become highly sought-after professionals. You have to be very well-paid and sought-after these days to achieve financial independence from any one employer, allowing you to take full responsibility for yourself. At the other end, you either get basic needs supplied via the wage paid by your employer, who is on some level morally responsible because they basically own you, or your employer fails to provide for you and you become dependent on family or the state.

The broad swathe of people who will forever remain proletarians, poor or well-off, rely on someone else to supply them/us the means to their/our basic needs.

And, in fact, the financially independent (including the rich) aren't really any better. They depend on the entire market economy that has evolved to enable them to trade one highly specialized form of labor or property for otherwise-valueless tokens which they can then trade for all their basic needs and more.

Real material independence from other people - for an individual, family, village, or nation - is possible, but its desirability is very questionable. A tiny homestead, a small farming village, or a large nation-state like America or China can afford to say, "We want to achieve complete economic self-sufficiency without depending on trade with the outside world." Most units of existence in between those will start having to make trade-offs in the standard of living and level of technological sophistication they can afford if they don't admit they need the help of others to live well.

guitarhacks2• 14 years ago

Nice tips but I already knew that in elementary school. The most important thing is not the transition after the college or university but your work and making connections WHILE you are studying. - You must build your network while you are studying and find people who you like to work with (look at Facebook?). Of course that depends on what University you are studying. Better University, better networks.

- Besides chasing girls and partying don't just learn to get good grades. Find something you like to do and work on it, your field of interest etc.

- Join all kinds of university projects WHILE you are studying that you think can help in your future job, career. Ask your teacher and tell him: I WANT MORE :) Especially if he is well known and you think he is awesome. Work more then everybody else and show him your own projects. He will introduce you to other interesting people. Latter in your life he can recommend you to someone or help you in finding a good job (maybe, you never know).

- Go to other lectures and find interesting people and ideas

- Don't enjoy your student life too much

If you work on all this your transition will be a lot better after you get out. I studied with one of the best teachers and performers in my field and he used to say to his students: "Look at that guy over there (me), you have to be crazy like him"

eli_gottlieb7• 14 years ago

You're picking up lots of downvotes, including from me. I'm going to explain why.

* Your first point is trite. Everyone says, "find your passion". Guess what? Most real people don't live lives structured around the pursuit of some driving passion -- just like how most people don't become start-up millionaires. You or I in specific may or may not be special, unique snowflakes, but any Life Advice premised on the recipient being a special, unique snowflake is very bad advice.

* Your second point combines workaholism with straight-up brown-nosing. Nobody likes a brown-noser, and contrary to your apparent thinking, bosses and professors can in fact spot them. Especially professors, actually! My stepfather is an old-hat Electrical Engineering professor, and he has told our family the occasional story about undergrads who were obviously just looking for a nice letter of recommendation or graduate students who could not complete PhDs because they were better at sucking up and obeying orders than original thinking.

* Your third point is trite.

* Your fourth point is... ugh. I don't even have commonly-understood words for this concept. It's like trying to find a word for water in Fish Language. Puritanical? Anti-Spiral? There's something really fucked-up about telling other people to avoid enjoying a valid, valuable part of their life.

Overall, your post comes across as if you're someone who kicks puppies, sucks up to everyone above him, and only cares about career advancement. If people in your field say "you have to be crazy" to mean "you have to be a joyless, semi-sociopathic workaholic", tell me what line of work you're in so I can avoid it for the rest of time.

CamperBob2• 14 years ago

Most real people don't live lives structured around the pursuit of some driving passion

Correct. Those are the people that Thoreau was talking about.

guitarhacks2• 14 years ago

Hmm..You totally missed my points and managed to insult me and my work, although the part with puppies was funny :)

* I never said you have to be a snowflake. I know that most men live quite lives of silent desperation, as Thoreau once stated. My first point was about making a network, BEING SOCIAL. And working on something you like.. I am not talking about true passion because for some people they need time to find it. Is it that hard to find something you like and collaborate with other people on it?

* brown noser? I was never nice with teachers. My problem was, since elementary school I mostly did not like my teachers and often times told them what I think. Why is somebody who wants more a brown noser. In my life I had few good teachers and always tried to learn as much as I could from them. I was not like a pest at the lecture or kissing ass. There is a difference. My point was that you alone or with somebody else make a nice project and show it to him or her for example. Not boost on lectures asking stupid questions.

* whats wrong with going to other lectures?

* Of course you have to enjoy your life at the Uni, I did. But also some people do it too much. I just wrote don't do it too much.

My teacher meant crazy because I would stay for all the classes and listen to the all the lectures while other people would goo home after theirs, there were other things as well.. now we come to my profession. I studied at the Mozarteum in Salzburg, classical guitar with one of the best guitarists today. And I was the youngest student, age 15. I visited lots of other universities including Juilliard etc. and played in US and Europe. Maybe that will clarify some things and explain the crazy comment. I also did audio programming, jazz, composition with other people as well. And I was crazy about linux, still am. I would argue how better is from windows etc. In short, avoid me next time you go to the concert hall :) Maybe my style and English is a bit brash but all I wanted was to give some tips based on my insights. Here is my recording from youtube http://youtu.be/n9c48k4FDx8 My sincerity and truth telling is clear from this music.

radarsat12• 14 years ago

I am currently dealing with this. I'm not sure about his specific tips, but the general feeling that this transition is not easy is something I don't feel I was adequately prepared for. I just finished my PhD and started working at a company, and I thought I would really enjoy the job since it's in a fun and exciting field, but honestly the experience has been pretty jarring. I've spent the last 7 years basically in charge of my own research projects, and all of a sudden being tasked to fix someone else's software that I'd never seen before and that was already at quite an advanced stage was just a bit difficult and a shock to my system. Not that I couldn't handle the work technically (I managed to commit a few pretty important bug fixes in my first week), but socially and mentally it was very difficult for me; suddenly not being around any of the people I have become good friends with, and being tied down to such a strict work schedule. 9-to-5 instead of waking up when I feel like it and taking a long coffee break with my friends in the afternoon. I am sort of starting to get used to it, but it sure hasn't been easy.

jtheory4• 14 years ago

I remember this as well -- there's a particular feeling in my gut that I recall, sitting down in front of the computer at 9am, feeling sick and drained already, to work on a task that would be both tedious and difficult and didn't interest me in the slightest.... I could force myself to go ahead and get something done, but it would feel like I was somehow doing permanent damage to my psyche.

You have to look for the opportunities (and sometimes make them, once you have the clout to do it), but it's quite possible to get back to the kind of schedule (and better focused/motivated work & life) that you mentioned. In the meantime, get talking with the people around you -- some of them can become friends, and they have some say in what you work on -- while someone probably needs to get this software fixed now, your next task may well be still undecided. If you seem happy with this kind of assignment (and do it well), you're probably going to get more like it.

radarsat12• 14 years ago

Thanks for the support. Yeah, I'm already seriously evaluating my options. I have realized that it's okay if the first job I get may not end up being what I'm looking for.

sown3• 14 years ago

One thing I noticed is that it is very, very lonely. I'm still trying to figure out ways to meet people and make friends, good friends even. No dice.

Maybe I'm just not very fun to be around.

quit2• 14 years ago

Or maybe you should stop trying so hard to meet people and make friends and just be

sown3• 14 years ago

What do you mean?

If I don't try then I just stay at home.

nelsonweiss• 14 years ago

Sown,

Normally I wouldn't go off topic like this but I didn't see any way to contact you and I just wanted to tell you that:

a. Don't give up on finding friends. It may seem rough right now but these things have a way of changing over time so just persist and you'll succeed.

b. Lighten up. Smile a little. Instead of thinking crap like "I'm just not fun to be around", take a look about and realize "damn, what an amazing world. I have a rough time getting out and meeting people but when I stay in there are millions of people right here with me, just a few feet and two screens away."

Things'll work out. Don't worry.. :)

jtheory4• 14 years ago

Look for other people who are new -- new to town, new to the company, etc.. They'll probably also be more open to new connections.

The trouble with everyone else is that they already have their daily routine, their set circle of friends, possibly spouse & kids... they may well find you interesting, and even good friend material, but they'd have to shuffle up their lives to make space for someone new.

Lots of people live their entire lives in one area -- they may have best friends they've known since they were 7 years old. You're not going to displace something like that, and that has nothing to do with who you are.

Be patient & don't go negative -- it certainly takes more time (and more looking) than making friends in a university setting, but it happens just the same.

WalterBright• 14 years ago

Probably what I miss most about college is living off the same hall as most of your friends, who you're around 24 hours a day. There was always something fun going on.

JagMicker3• 14 years ago

Here are some things I wish someone would've shared with me...

- If you want to thrive in the professional world, get a fucking haircut and at least look the part.

- If you think that you can send out a bunch of resumes and be flooded with calls about job offers, you are wrong.

- Most of the phrases you've heard in your youth are true. Ex. "The squeaky wheel gets the grease". See the above point. If you get a job (or a check) just by sending a resume (or invoice), consider it an anomaly, and yourself lucky.

- In life, everyone is only concerned about their own well-being. You've got to learn to highlight 'what's in it for them'. See the above point.

- You're on your own, so make your time and actions count!

rb2k_• 14 years ago

For software engineering, the "job offers" part still holds up.

csmajor1234• 14 years ago

I disagree about your second point. I'm a CS Major at a top 10 program, with a pretty good GPA (~3.7). This is a throwaway account btw.

During this fall recruiting season, I sent out my resumes to all the top companies, and was offered interviews at every single one. With the exception of two companies, I received offers from everywhere I interviewed, including Amazon, Google, Facebook and Microsoft. I think the market is so hot right now that you CAN get showered with job offers just by sending out a lot of resumes.

JagMicker3• 14 years ago

I suppose that's sometimes true. However, some people in certain situations might receive unsolicited job offers, without ever even creating a resume or submitting an application, right?

The point I was trying to make is that, I'd encourage young people to follow-up after sending out a resume. It will help you gain 'chops' for future calling/prospecting that may be required. Also, it's professional to follow-up with a phone call after sending an email to someone you've never met or spoken to before.

I get a lot of unsolicited resumes sent my way. Hardly anyone ever calls to follow-up. My thought is, I'm a busy person, and if the person really truly wants to work with me, they won't give up. I want to see persistence.

I bet that Amazon, Google, Facebook and Microsoft all have very well-thought-out recruiting programs. I'd imagine that young college grad's could be hired for a lower salary than older, more seasoned software engineers. Those large companies are probably more flexible with young recruits. Everything in life is a trade-off. Why would those companies "shower" kids fresh out of college with job offers? I'd venture to guess that they are interested in hiring them because it's cheaper than hiring someone else with more experience. Or maybe that's how it is in the software job market. But as I see so many Americans out of work, expecting someone to 'create jobs' for them, I think it's important to highlight what it takes to get a job that you want. I'd consider your example of software engineers being "showered with job offers" as an exception to the rule. Most people have to actively pursue what they want in life. Plus, in 25 years you don't want to be one of those people on TV begging the government to 'create jobs' for you! So my advice is to learn how to get what you want by asking.

eli_gottlieb7• 14 years ago

Count yourself lucky. I graduated in 2011 and only got 2 offers from BigCo's like that, and 3 grad-school admissions out of 7 applications. Ended up being much easier to get offers from start-ups, actually.

brotchie• 14 years ago

> If you get a check just by sending a invoice, consider it an anomaly, and yourself lucky.

So very, very true.

"Oh you want to get paid for this consulting project huh? Well we can't just wire the money to you, no, please fill out this form so we can put you in our SAP system. Oh, you haven't been paid? well well, you're not in our system.

We've finally put you our system, here's a record of our payment to you.

no money in my bank account

argh!"

Direct experience with my country's 3rd largest bank. Once outside regular salaried work, liquidity is more of an issue than solvency. You might have billed 5 months of rent, but your real estate agent doesn't accept unpaid invoices as legal tender....

JDuMond• 14 years ago

I graduated Dec. '11. There are three things that I wish I had been told about working after college:

1. Find a mentor. If you have any flexibility in the projects you work on or the people you get to work with choose to work with someone who will be a mentor to you. I think we're all familiar with the benefits of a mentor as a teacher, but there's another important function of a mentor: they can be a "cheerleader". A good mentor will talk you up around his co-workers and management, and make sure that those who don't work directly with know that you are capable of putting out quality work and that you should be considered for more interesting/challenging work in the future.

3. Ask questions. When you start your new job you'll feel like you need to prove yourself as just as capable as everyone who's been working on the same project/codebase/technology for years. So you'll stay late banging your head against the desk trying to solve a problem that has nagged you for days. You finally breakdown and ask an experienced engineer what he thinks, he says, "Oh yeah, I've seen this a hundred times. It tricky the first time you come across it..." and then explains how to fix it in a few minutes. If you had gone to him earlier you could have increased your productivity and saved your self a headache. The more experienced engineers are a resource. If you aren't using all the resources available to you to get work done efficiently, you're not doing your job.

2. If you're unhappy with your work, speak up. Your management cannot read minds. If you find your work soul crushing but you do well on it your management will keep you there until you burnout. At that point you'll rip off your clothes and streak through the halls and your management will think, "I never saw that coming." Your company(probably) wants you to be happy because if you are you'll be more productive and that adds to there bottom line. Let your management know that you would like to do other work and they'll try to move you somewhere you can be happy. It may take time but I've found that just knowing that you management cares goes a long way to easing the pain. If your management does care, start working on your resume and browse wanted ads during lunch.

gregpilling2• 14 years ago

To agree with the JDuMond:

1. If someone gives you good advice, surprise them by taking it.

2. Ask questions. Just not the same ones over and over again, and not ones easily answered by Google.

3. As a manager, remember that I can't tell if you are having a bad day because you are mad at your spouse or mad at me or ???. So just tell me your issue, I would like to help.

gamechangr• 14 years ago

I like your points numbered 1,3,2,

JDSD• 14 years ago

The vast majority of kids who enter college do so right after high school. They are used to summers off, parents sending tuition checks and allowances for rent/living. There is a misunderstanding in todays youth that college is a social club with the side effect of gaining an education. Few kids choose their school on quality of education, but rather how big the parties are/what the scene is like.

To me this entire subject reeks of #firstworldproblems, and the fact I don't have much respect for the beaten path or the zombies they churn out(referring to a BA). Life after college isn't hard at all. This generation is simply not used to feeling ANY discomfort or pain in their sheltered little lives.

Not going to college and excelling to the point of someone with a degree is not that difficult, though it's more difficult than going to a structured setting to be hand-fed information. (most of college could be condensed into one year study, one year practical)

Working in an electronic graveyard in Ghana at age 13 with no parents seems difficult. It seems in places like this, limits of the human experience are tested everyday in terms of what people can and cannot withstand. Spend some time learning how other people live purely for our convenience, and repeat "Graduating college is a difficult transition from one easy thing to the next easy thing." You'll sound ridiculous.

peter_l_downs• 14 years ago

    There is a misunderstanding in todays youth that college is a
    social club with the side effect of gaining an education. Few
    kids choose their school on quality of education, but rather
    how big the parties are/what the scene is like.

Source? This seems extremely anecdotal.

    Life after college isn't hard at all. This generation is simply
    not used to feeling ANY discomfort or pain in their sheltered
    little lives.

This is hyperbole and personal opinion presented as fact. HN is not the place for this kind of writing.

jarek2• 14 years ago

> Source? This seems extremely anecdotal.

Source is the darn kids on his lawn.

001sky• 14 years ago

Asking for "source" on how the world works? LOL

Actually, having street smarts would be anecdoatal;

Actually having street smarts would be anecdotal.

But this is OK. It's the point of the thread...

philwelch3• 14 years ago

College is wasted on the college aged. I don't think I was ready at 18 and neither were most of the people I went to college with. I suspect a few years of work or national service would do a lot to help young people.

mhewett• 14 years ago

As a 55 year old I would say that this is exactly right, especially the part about keeping yourself healthy, both physically and mentally. I have, and it has paid off.

I would add one item to the list: Set a 5-year goal and update it every year.

brackin• 14 years ago

I haven't gone to College, I've gone out from High School and started building a startup. Doesn't apply so much to me because when I wasn't working in school I was up all night getting a few hours of sleep after working on projects.

JacksonGariety• 14 years ago

Seems like these are instructions for how to live life by default. Instructions on how to fit into the cogs of the system and not fall into depression. In my opinion, life should not be like this.

For those who haven't already, you should read this article from HN a few weeks ago:

http://www.raptitude.com/2012/07/most-lives-are-lived-by-def...

dinkumthinkum5• 14 years ago

Yes, it is basically entirely about being not only a cog but a good little cog. Honestly, to anyone reading this stuff and looking for direction or advice on life, don't take from HN. If you listen to anyone on HN at all about life issues, just listen to the ones that tell you not to listen. This crowd is too biased toward one direction that it's going to bias in advice toward that ideal lifestyle. If you really want to be a healthy, skinny, hipster whose goal in life is to increase the share value of the company he works for and make his managers happy then a lot of stuff would probably be very useful; it sounds like a dreadful bore to me. :)

sayemm• 14 years ago

Recent college grads should read Charlie Hoehn's ebook, Recession-Proof Graduate - http://charliehoehn.com/rpgrad/

braveheart1723• 14 years ago

- Don't sell out. Find out what you love whether it's design, programming, assembly, hacking stuff, building stuff, whatever... and do that.

If you sell out, at the beginning you might make loads of $$$, it'll be amazing, maybe you'll make more than your dad ever made, maybe you'll buy yourself a 70" TV but trust me... 3 to 5 years in. You'll be that annoying guy that tells all his friends he sold out and really wished to have been an actor, a sportsman, an artist, a musician, an animator.

- Save enough $$$ for 6months of living without work, all of a sudden you'll be a lot pickier on what you work on.

- watch http://www.beautyisembarrassing.com/

michaelochurch4• 14 years ago

What got me in the adult world was "4.0 syndrome". (Well, my actual GPA wasn't 4.0, but close.) Not that I was used to getting great grades and had a rude awakening, because school was a lot more intellectually challenging than 95+ percent of what I encountered in the real world, but that school led me to believe the world was more meritocratic, fair, and straight-forward than it actually is.

For example, some teachers were better than others-- I actually lucked out and had mostly good ones-- but I never had a teacher who went out of his way to be unfair. But I've had more than one manager who was outright scummy. School doesn't prepare you for this, because while there are demanding teachers, unfair or corrupt ones (while they exist) are extraordinarily rare.

Also, in college, you have career coherence. The work that is put in front of you is designed to teach you the basic concepts, so you'll usually learn something from it. The rare cases where this isn't the case are when you have outright incompetent professors. Either way, though, if you do the work you will usually get the knowledge and credibility that you need for your career. Useless, unappreciated busy-work is quite rare in college, but it's common in the work world.

To get anything close to 100% career coherence at work, you have to actively manage your career. If you just do what your manager tells you to do, you're probably looking at 25%, which means you get 1 year of real progress per 4 of work.

In the real world, the deadlines aren't well-tested. They might be unrealistic or make no sense. The work isn't designed to teach you things, and if you graduate past the work you're being assigned and are ready to move on, that comes down more to social skills than anything else. In school, you can skip grades. In work, you actually need social engineering (or frequent job changes) to progress faster than the slow players for whom the typical track is designed.

"4.0 Syndrome" is seen heavily in startups and investment banking analyst programs, because there's a crop of 22-year-olds every year who will meet every "deadline" no matter how ridiculous. They haven't learned that many real-world "deadlines" are just made up times that are often impossible to meet. (In school, they're also "made up times", but there are a large number of people facing the same deadlines, and they'll generally moved if they're really unreasonable.)

It's also a dangerous trait to have, because it can lead you to over-perform at work, which in most office cultures is more dangerous than underperforming because (a) you become a target for adversity, and (b) you lose social polish if you overwork yourself, and social success is more important than raw "performance".

therealarmen• 14 years ago

Well put. College is a constrained optimization problem, and real life is not. The only way to figure that out is to live it.

As an aside, I know a lot of people here on HN find your comments to be overly aggressive, but I love them. Keep it up.

michaelochurch4• 14 years ago

As an aside, I know a lot of people here on HN find your comments to be overly aggressive

Many HNers (and this is a hard group to categorize, because there's still a lot of diversity of thought) are still in the honeymoon phase with the positive-sum promise of technology and the startup economy.

I believe in these things very strongly, but I'm also old and experienced enough to know that we, the good guys, have real enemies. They aren't stupid, and they're not weak. We seem to think we can out-compete them by being smarter, more productive, and earnestly working toward a better world. We act is if we'll be able to peacefully render them irrelevant and that they won't know what is happening (or care) enough to fight. Well, perhaps. Time will tell. I am not yet at the point of saying we need to take AK-47s against our corporate masters (please don't do that; your aim probably sucks and weapons are nasty things even when used well). However, I am also not optimistic enough to believe that they will surely opt for graceful decline and let us build this better world that we want. Perhaps they will, content to be very rich (in a world whose prosperity begins to dramatically increase, probably around 2025-40, rendering them less relatively wealthy and powerful) but increasingly irrelevant. Perhaps they won't. My experience with the upper class is that they are mean-spirited, ethically depraved people. Their weak point is that they underestimate us, because we're less than human to them, and because they see us as intellectually inferior. However, if we underestimate them, then we are making the same mistake.

Most of my HN "enemies" (and that's too strong a word, because I don't dislike them and they don't know me) are Googlers who were shocked when I exposed unethical management, in a very visible way, in October 2011. When you wave a whistle in the public ("whistle" as in whistleblowing) some people act as if you're waving a gun, and especially those who can't stand to hear the truth about their utopia. This reaction is ridiculous, because a lot of the people who get up in arms and fight whistleblowers have nothing to fear. They are too in love with the Woodbury with the quaint coffee shops, not the real Woodbury with the fascistic Governor and the zombie gladiator fights.

What's sort of amazing about whistleblowing is that you don't get the worst opposition from the powerful people you are exposing. They know they're doing wrong and will often make some concessions (but rarely enough). The mindless and often vicious opposition that you get is from other peasants who are shocked and upset at what appears to be going down. In the Philippines, this is referred to as the "crab mentality", whereby crabs in a bucket prevent each other from escaping and they all die. That's what you see when subordinate employees go to the mat to defend unethical managers who wouldn't lift a finger to do anything for them.

ImprovedSilence• 14 years ago

>> you have to actively manage your career

I completely agree with this statement. Nowhere in school are you prepared or told that you will have to manage your career, and no one will do it for you. I think that's the biggest thing left off of this list. Schooling is 12+ years of following steps and getting to the next one is an easy, clear, and direct path that's been laid out for you. The real world has no such thing, often the are not clear paths to get up to the next step, you have to figure this out yourself.

I think another big change from school to working life is that it is easy to get stuck in a "rut", in the sense that life is sometimes the same, day in and out, for months or even years. Yes, in school you are busy and frequently work hard, and often don't have all the time you like. But no matter what, in 4 months, everything is going to be different. Different classes with different people in different buildings. You will meet new people and make new friends and do different work. If you're in a social group in college, some people graduate and leave and new people come every year. It keeps things interesting. The real world doesn't change things up that often, and sometimes that sucks. A lot. I think variety is the spice of life, and I thrive on new and evolving friendships and intellectual problems. Being in a static state can be a drag, but is very very common for most workplaces, and that can spread out to the other activities in your life as well.

So I guess the two items I'd add to the list are:

* nobody is going to tell you how to advance, it's up to you to manage your career/future

*Things such as friendships and workloads can/will become more static, learn how to cope with this, or learn how to mitigate it.

michaelochurch4• 14 years ago

I remember when I was in 7th grade and realized that the working world would be like being in one class for 8 hours and it was somewhat of a panic moment.

Well, it's more accurate to say that the classes aren't defined. You have to create the structure by deciding what's important to you, and you may face opposition from managers who think they know better than you do when it comes to what you should be doing.

If I were running a company, the default assumption would be that employees are autonomous and the manager's role would be advisory, as in, "If you don't know what to work on yet, <X> would be a good place to start. I'll introduce you to the team."

bicx4• 14 years ago

I agree with you. I began my corporate career (explained a few posts below) with the mentality that if I worked hard and worked smart, I would be rewarded. Well, I worked for 3 years, and was only promoted once. That promotion just moved me from the first level to second level developer (in a big company, a promotion essentially just means a raise and title change from <bla bla> I to <bla bla> II). That promotion came with a slightly higher salary, but it also came with ineligibility for overtime pay. As a result, my overall pay-per-hour kinda sank. I didn't care though. I still thought doing a good job would pay off well in the end.

Well, one day I asked my manager for a private meeting and asked for a promotion. I was performing at the level of people several levels above me, and I thought I brought more value to the company than I was being compensated for. What he eventually said echoes in my mind: "Sometimes it's possible for you to grow too fast in your career." The idea that there was some sort of meritocracy came shattering down, and it started dawning on me why they had mediocre software even with so many developers. For those of us doing the actual work, there was no real reward for being the guy with the solution. There was no motivation. This wasn't a place for anyone who expected to be appreciated for hard work. They probably just looked at me and thought, "Hah, that's cute that he's trying so hard."

So I ditched the corporate world, took a slight pay decrease, and now I work for a great startup. The end. ;)

bicx4• 14 years ago

Reading over that again, I realize 3 years and one promotion is pretty good for some places. At the company I worked for, it was expected to be bumped through early levels rather quickly (or at least so I thought).

SatvikBeri• 14 years ago

Wanting to avoid this fate is essentially what led me to learn social skills & politics. I literally doubled the profits of one 40-person company and received nothing but a "congratulations."

One of the best things you can do is work out an agreement beforehand. Say, "If I accomplish X, Y, and Z in the next year, that's definitely worth (reward Q)." You probably can't get this in writing, but almost any boss will honor their word after a highly specific agreement. This tactic is (part of) how I got a double promotion just 8 months after joining one of the most bureaucratic companies in the world-where the average time for a promotion was 7 years.

From a manager's perspective, agreeing to a promotion in exchange for a certain level of performance feels like a business transaction. But being asked for a promotion after an employee has accomplished something feels like you're just paying more for the same work. Irrational, but true.

(By the way, if anyone ever wants advice on salary negotiations/corporate politics, I'm always happy to help fellow HNers. My email is in my profile.)

frozenport• 14 years ago

>>Play with your schedule. Wake up earlier, go to bed later. Time-shifting is your friend.

This is bad advice, in college you can skip classes and choose where to fail, you can't skip meetings and your mistakes live can't be dismissed. Having an inconsistent sleep schedule is a great way to mess up your life.

jtheory4• 14 years ago

Advice I'd add: pay careful attention to the responsibilities you take on.

Owning a car -- you have to maintain it, possibly repair it occasionally, insure it, etc.. A pet is quite a large one -- want to travel for a few months? And you'll probably have that dog for the next 10-15 years, and they may get sick along the way. Owning a house, of course, but also renting -- you have to deal with minor damage, rent, keeping the landlord informed ("I didn't notice water started leaking in during the winter" is very bad).

Debt, of course -- what if you can't quit an exhausting job you detest, because you're paying down large debts?

Many of these things are rewarding (I love having a dog, for example, though it does make some things hard...) -- I'm not saying don't do them, just realize what you're trading. Take on new responsibilities one at a time, and do it with your eyes open.

I personally wish I'd been slower to take on new responsibilities when I was first out of college -- my first salary seemed huge, and so I traded up my $900 car for a $12K one, married my long-time girlfriend in a way-too-expensive wedding, and got a puppy... not mistakes, per se, but it was all much too fast.

Things I wish someone had told me about life after college

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