Intel Starts Shipping High-NA EUV Silicon

https://morethanmoore.substack.com/p/intel-starts-shipping-high-na-euv

by zdw • 4 days ago

230 106 4 days ago

morethanmoore.substack.com

dyauspitr2• 15 hours ago

Im rooting for Intel. I hate the current paradigm where all the best chips are made in one factory in Asia.

IMO it's competition that makes better products in the end. If either party becomes a full monopolist the progress will stall (as already happened with Intel I guess)

jbstack• 14 hours ago

as already happened with Intel I guess

In which sense? Intel is neither a full monopolist (AMD, ARM) nor has progress stalled (we're still getting a regular cycle of new generation CPUs which improve on the previous).

fsuts• 14 hours ago

Tsmc are opening 10 factories in USA at cost of $265bn

https://www.techrepublic.com/article/news-tsmc-us-investment...

Intel staying strong is still vital for competitiveness though

matwood2• 14 hours ago

Until they are built, it's all talk.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/21/foxconn-mostly-abandons-10-b...

p_l2• 13 hours ago

TSMC also AFAIK is forbidden from setting up bleeding-edge fabs outside of Taiwan?

dzonga• 11 hours ago

yeah - I wouldn't bet against Intel.

they might have floundered in the past.

panther lakes I hear are pretty competitive with some of the apple silicone.

adrian_b• 9 hours ago

Intel Panther Lake is a serious improvement over the previous Intel CPUs, both in energy efficiency and in GPU performance. The good energy efficiency is a good sign for Intel's 18A CMOS fabrication process.

Nevertheless, it is worrying that the computers with Panther Lake CPUs have become much more expensive in comparison with their equivalents of last year with Arrow Lake, and this before adding the hugely increased costs for DRAM and SSDs.

It is also confusing for buyers that the 300-series Panther Lake part numbers that appear to be replacements for the previous 200-series Arrow Lake in most cases correspond to lower technical specifications, i.e. a much smaller GPU and lower clock frequencies.

The Panther Lake models that have the new big and very good GPU are extremely expensive and also hard to find, despite the fact that the GPU continues to be produced by TSMC. Perhaps TSMC has raised its price and prioritizes other customers, so Intel cannot get enough big GPUs, but even the Panther Lake models with the very small GPU (much smaller than Intel has used in many years for its mobile CPUs) have become far too expensive.

Because Panther Lake introduced a few important new features that could have been interesting for experiments in software development (e.g. FRED), I intended to buy some mini-PC with Panther Lake, but I gave up because even one that would cost double in comparison with the mini-PC with Arrow Lake H from last year that I have (i.e. around $1000 as barebone, instead of around $500) would be a downgrade in specs, instead of being an upgrade.

topspin• 6 hours ago

Intel is doing well. They have 18A yields up to 85% at Fab 52. That's huge for the foundry business: the best foundries are not all in Asia now.

Rumor is they're moving Nova Lake production mostly in-house due to 18A success.

rando1234• 13 hours ago

Amazing looking machine! $380 million a pop. Must surely be one of the most sophisticated machines humanity has ever built? A great achievement of European science and technology (ducks).

spwa42• 13 hours ago

That's what makes this hard to interpret. The whole strategy of intel is that they have their own version of this machine, part of their "18A" design. The only reason they need the ASML machine is because of the "optics" (between quotes because at the frequencies they work at no optics work - only (bad) mirrors do. However you need make the mirrors accurate enough - we're talking far more accurate than the chips, as in sub-nanometer max deviation, they can function as optics with high losses, but low enough that exposure works). No American company can achieve even 10 times lower accuracy at the moment.

So is this giving up on their own version? That would mean their stock price is absolutely not justified at $110, and it should be more like $60-70 if not lower. Or is this "we have technical reasons to use this. We're still going to do 18A and it's still going to beat 2nm", which would mean their stock price is easily justified at $200 and it's high time to buy.

vrganj• 13 hours ago

Only the optics is an ... interesting way of phrasing it.

There was a great Economist article a while ago that talks about this. ASMLs moat isn't just the know-how to build the machines themselves. It's a network of suppliers all across Europe, specialized businesses doing one little part better than anyone else in the world.

This is the type of thing that Europe is still leading in, and it'll be incredibly hard to reproduce elsewhere.

You don't just need to figure out how to build an High-NA EUV machine. You need to figure out how to build or procure all of the parts that go into it. Many of these suppliers have exclusive contracts with ASML.

Here's the article, de-paywalled: https://archive.ph/jP1HX

whazor• 12 hours ago

As I understand it, the machine also needs lots of 'normal parts' and can be designed differently to fit the factory and the automation. Like if you need a pipe, instead of buying it from ASML, you can buy it from a local hardware vendor. And parts of the ASML also break, and those parts would be directly shipped from the vendor that makes the part. ASML manages the integration between these parts and each part can have multiple vendors that makes them according to the specs.

zmb_• 8 hours ago

Intel does not have their own version of this machine. This ASML machine is a component in a very large system of machines from many manufacturers that runs wafers automatically from machine to machine until a month later a chip comes out the other end. That system is “18A”. Intel designs, builds and operates that system. Intel does not make the machines, they buy them and figure out how to configure and operate them as a part of the system.

mDyJzDPmBdG• 12 hours ago

Depends on definition of machine. Do ISS, LHC or ITER count?

smolder• 11 hours ago

ASMLs machines can easily be "one of the most sophisticated" without stepping on LHC or ITERs toes. I'm not sure ISS qualifies anymore. I would have went with JWST.

0123456789ABCDE• 11 hours ago

no.

neither of the observations gp made is dependent upon the definition of machine, nor is it dependent on the inclusion of the examples you brought up in that definition.

sroussey2• 4 hours ago

Can’t buy and ship those.

I love how ASML machines are shaped to the contours of a jet fuselage for this reason!

arcticfox• 11 hours ago

A great achievement of European science and technology (ducks).

It's a fantastic machine but the bulk of the achievement is clearly a joint European-American effort.

hvb2• 11 hours ago

Not even that, the company happens to be Dutch but it's employees are from everywhere. A company doesn't make anything, the employees do, especially in a sector like this.

The companies job is to hire well and create strong teams that work together.

apexalpha• 11 hours ago

Then Apple M series is also a joint European-American effort, no? Since ARM is European?

Weirdly enough it never seems to work that way in discourse.

jorvi• 11 hours ago

In that case the internet is mostly due to the Brits (invention of packet switching at the NPL by Donald Davies). Cheers!

petcat2• 11 hours ago

A great achievement of European science and technology

It's an amazing piece of technology but this is... wildly wrong. ASML is a multi-national company that licenses IP largely from USA and Japan, but also Taiwan and Germany. The actual EUV light source is developed and produced in California by Cymer, which ASML acquired in 2013. But ASML was only permitted to acquire the company under a strict technology sharing and export control agreement with the US government. Additionally, a huge portion of the photolithography research is directly developed (and owned) by US companies and research organizations such as IBM, Albany NanoTech, and SEMATECH.

There is a reason why ASML's next-generation research photolithography machine is currently being installed and developed in upstate New York, and not somewhere in the Netherlands. The same reason that Cymer is still in San Diego instead of being relocated to Europe. Because it's American technology.

But Europe certainly plays a huge role in it.

https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/governor-hochul-announces-n...

https://research.ibm.com/blog/euv-center-albany-nstc

https://www.eetimes.com/asml-sematech-team-on-manufacturing-...

https://www.eetimes.com/asml-to-build-400-million-us-researc...

Lucasoato• 11 hours ago

There is a reason why ASML's next-generation research photolithography machine is currently being installed and developed in upstate New York, and not somewhere in the Netherlands. The same reason that Cymer is still in San Diego instead of being relocated to Europe.

Why is the Netherlands government even allowing this?

llm_nerd2• 10 hours ago

The actual EUV light source is developed and produced in California by Cymer, which ASML acquired in 2013.

Cymer was one of multiple vendors (Gigaphoton, XTREME) providing this sort of light source, and ASML acquired it because it couldn't achieve what they wanted (they needed 100+W and Cymer could only achieve 15W). ASML needed to control and fund the company, and add engineering talent, to achieve what they actually needed.

Oh and ASML bought Cymer because Gigaphoton (another company at basically the same stage of development as Cymer), being a Japanese company, objected to foreign control. Though if ASML knew the protectionist, insular direction the US was going to go they probably would rethink their past decisions.

So this retconning that Cymer is really the secret magic of ASML and the Netherlands is just stealing US ingenuity is hilarious stuff.

And for that matter, it is amazing how so often we hear about "American" tech that is actually overwhelmingly combining acquisitions and manpower from abroad. Like is an iPhone an "American" creation? LOL, no.

saberience3• 9 hours ago

The most absurdly biased and inaccurate take on ASML I've ever seen, congrats.

If the machines are so easy to build and integrate, why isn't it happening in America?

actuallyship• 8 hours ago

There is a reason why ASML's next-generation research photolithography machine is currently being installed and developed in upstate New York, and not somewhere in the Netherlands.

This is a wildly ignorant comment. The R&D lab in NY State if anything is an effort to copy IMEC, the world's leading research organization when it comes to semiconductor R&D. They essentially set and define the roadmap for node advancements and then the industry follows by actually implementing their innovations at scale in their fabs. I guess they are technically not in the Netherlands, being located about 50 miles south of the Dutch border in Belgium. And they have in fact have an EXE system of their own, and have had access to ASML's high-na tools since before they were even commercially available

tjwebbnorfolk• 8 hours ago

ASML is the only real tech company in the EU. Just let them have this one :)

lardosaurusrex• 5 hours ago

The US is currently aggravating practically every other country on the planet and writing like this only pisses everyone else involved all the more.

I'm not sure if it's wise to minimise the contributions of everyone else in the current climate tbh.

throwup238• 11 hours ago

EUV was developed in a joint venture with the Department of Energy and ASML, Intel, etc called EUV Corp. It’s why the US can export control it.

Farfignoggen• 10 hours ago

LOL, no Mention of IMEC(Interuniversity Microelectronics Centre) in the EUV development process and the only reason that the US can restrict the ASML EUV equipment is the EUV Light source and mirror optics for that is partially US produced and the IP there falls under US IP/Export restrictions!

From ASML:

"ASML’s extreme ultraviolet (EUV) light source was developed and is manufactured at its facility in San Diego, California. Acquired from the US firm Cymer in 2013, the R&D team here developed the laser-produced plasma (LPP) system that fires lasers at tin droplets 50,000 times per second to generate EUV light."

culi• 3 hours ago

Also Japan has a monopoly on essential EUV materials like photoresists and mask blanks and pellicles. Japan is also the only country in the world that can produce a number of highly specialized ancillary machinery like the actinic light systems used to inspect EUV photomasks. ASML also acquired its e-beam inspection tech from a Taiwanese company. There's also no way ASML could run anything at production if it wasn't for TSMC and Samsung.

Not to mention the critical role of the US in its development. The core EUV light source was invented in San Diego!

amelius2• 10 hours ago

Amazing looking machine!

As with most of this type of technology, most of the stuff you see is basically a giant refrigerator and giant vacuum cleaner. The actual meat is much smaller and hidden from view.

lvl155• 9 hours ago

Basically most of the technology was US govt funded at some point. Now the Dutch can just leech off of that. I guess that’s what they’re good at considering their long history with VOC and “mercantilism”.

johndear2233• 7 hours ago

The lasers are made in San Diego, the lenses made in Germany.

Tepix• 11 hours ago

I believe Intel has a winner with the upcoming Crescent Island GPUs with up to 480GB of LPDDR5 memory. A lot of SMEs will need local AI with large open weights models (i.e. >1.5TB of VRAM), but they don't need a watercooled 8x Nvidia GB300 box. Besides, it's difficult to deploy and very expensive.

Crescent island is air cooled and likely fast enough for a group of users running something like GLM 5.2 or Kimi K3.

gigatexal• 11 hours ago

I thought Nvidia after they invested in Intel killed Intel’s GPU efforts as it could be a threat to Nvidia’s GPUs

minraws2• 11 hours ago

To Nvidia the biggest threat is a capex cut from big tech not another company in the same domain, maybe some Chinese companies but people aren't going to be moving off of Nvidia for large deployments in the short term even if some TPU/Tranium etc is used it's not close to Nvidia.

I have no explanation other than people, researchers are comfortable with it and don't want to switch.

kyrra• 9 hours ago

My general take is all of The GPU design efforts are going toward Enterprise / datacenter graphics cards. They are just skipping a generation or two of consumer.

dismalaf2• 7 hours ago

A 4% stake doesn't even make Nvidia one of the top 3 holders of Intel stock... They'd be crucified for changing strategy for a 4% stake.

Also Nvidia arguably needs Intel more than vice versa, Intel now has SOTA fabs on the newest EUV technology, TSMC is at max capacity and they need to fight Apple and others for allocation...

re-thc3• 1 hour ago

killed Intel’s GPU efforts

It doesn't matter anymore. Nvidia's core product isn't "GPUs" anymore. It's a whole AI rack. AMD also announced their own of the same. CPU, GPU, network, etc is all bundled.

caycep3• 2 hours ago

I mean, I sure as heck can't buy a nVidia one, at least not the founder editions which are the one that fit in my case...

amelius2• 11 hours ago

ASML moved to camera-style anamorphic optics that magnify the mask by different amounts along the two axes

Does this mean they do high-resolution designs in the center of the lens and low-resolution designs in the periphery?

sylware• 10 hours ago

I wish that, but for high performance RISC-V micro-achitectures.

dismalaf2• 7 hours ago

https://www.eetimes.com/barcelona-bsc-celebrates-tape-out-of...

johndear2233• 7 hours ago

I was just reading about this in a tech magazine, couple of startups also trying other techniques of interest, one of them using helium atoms for the lithography. This uses pretty close to x-ray wavelengths of light. Amazing feats of engineering taking place in this crazy world of ours.

bilsbie• 6 hours ago

How come we don’t make chips with really small 3d printers?

wmf• 6 hours ago

AFAIK you can't really print crystalline silicon so they have to start with a wafer and dope/etch into it to form transistors.

dehrmann• 5 hours ago

Sibling has a good comment about silicon. Another reason you're printing something like 100B transistors. So that's at least 100B raster steps. It would just take too long.

tbrownaw• 5 hours ago

The closest thing there is is e-beam lithography. It isn't really practical.

Melatonic• 2 hours ago

Isnt that smaller? I was under the impression e-beam is one of the (possible) next generation chip technologies.

Getting it to scale is the issue

ginko• 2 hours ago

Is it so hard to explain what the term "High-NA" is supposed to mean at the start of your article?

caycep3• 1 hour ago

most importantly, is Ian Cutress' blog basically the new Anandtech? I miss that site...

Intel Starts Shipping High-NA EUV Silicon

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