Why it's so difficult to produce American-made medical gloves

If the next pandemic is 50% deadly, not being able to make gloves is surely the canary in the coal mine proving we wouldn't be able to make any other PPE.

And no country can rely on another if it's do or die. Other blocs will keep to themselves.

raverbashing2• 12 days ago

It's amazing how much those spreadsheet heads know nothing about how the actual world works

jeffrallen• 12 days ago

Those who do not learn from history... probably don't make gloves.

JumpCrisscross• 12 days ago

And in the midst of a start-stop petrochemical supply crisis.

NetMageSCW6• 11 days ago

As pointed out earlier, there is also rotation of a stockpile of gloves instead of manufacturing which reduces costs and solves the same issues.

Even things made in America were in short supply during the pandemic because workers were hard to come by as well. A factory isn’t any good if half the people to run it are sick, but it doesn’t take special training to hand out boxes of gloves.

jofzar• 12 days ago

Looks like most/all manufacturing happens in the SEA/China, so I can see the logic that it could be considered a military risk for it to not be manufactured/possibility to scale manufacturing in America.

jerlam2• 10 days ago

Berry Amendment requires US military to buy items manufactured in the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berry_Amendment

roysting2• 12 days ago

Yes. Next question

rileymat22• 11 days ago

Why is it so simple? Instead of investing billions, perhaps a stockpile is a better strategy.

maxglute3• 12 days ago

Someone already decided US should. The important question is whether 1B should have gotten the job done, and if not... is it matter of throwing good $$$ after bad $$$... or is it just bad sign 1B wasn't enough.

petra3• 11 days ago

I wonder if they can at least create a small scale NBR factory.

einpoklum• 12 days ago

The story says the US doesn't have the raw material(s): NBR. Not quite sure what that is.

oasisaimlessly• 12 days ago

NBR = nitrile butadiene rubber, a synthetic rubber. Not really a raw material, as it's synthesized.

RetroTechie• 12 days ago

With all the chemical industry already in the US, and $1B to throw at it, production capacity for the raw material couldn't be included?

It's not like you need a metric ton of it to produce a box of gloves.

PowerElectronix• 12 days ago

Making them? Not in the least. But being capable of making them? It's a must, be it gloves, EVs, semis, or screws.

fl0id• 12 days ago

It's all a question of price, based on the article. And not planning how much it takes to start up. In any case it's also not feasible to keep a plant on standby, just in case you need it one day.

warumdarum• 12 days ago

The more important part is how to make people who ask this question a permanent pariahs?

derektank• 11 days ago

You think someone should be made a permanent pariah for suggesting medical gloves be manufactured in Malaysia or Thailand, rather than the US? Why?

goalieca• 12 days ago

The USA can make anything if there’s money in it. Right now, I just don’t think there’s any.

like_any_other• 12 days ago

It should be able to. A country that can't, cannot hope to remain sovereign in anything but name, for long.

t0mpr1c33• 9 days ago

The thing about autarky.

It ain't for people who don't want to work in a plastics factory, I guess.

And it contributed to the rise of fascism in the 1930s. Funny coincidence that.

rasz• 11 days ago

nah, you can always import from friendly nations like Denmark, Spain, Canada, Mexico..

taneq• 12 days ago

Is this the new “China can’t manufacture a ball point pen”? (Which I strongly suspect they can do at this point. :)

maxglute3• 12 days ago

Ballpoint pen tips was proxy Li Keqiang used to shame PRC industry to build precision micromachining capabilities (tungsten carbide for high-end munitions etc), TISCO did it in like a year and it upgraded entire PRC metallurgy chain. US struggling to make 100% indigenized gloves 5+ years after covid... is well maybe not something new relative to US industrial decline, but certainly something else. I'm sure US can... but at what cost and all that.

code_duck• 12 days ago

The article states some of the companies successfully made gloves, but customers such as hospitals considered the prices too high, which is why they're looking to the federal government to be the primary customer now.

probably_wrong2• 12 days ago

More like the new "America can't manufacture a grill scrubber" [1].

For those who haven't seen the video, YouTuber Destin Sandlin ("Smarter every day") tried to build a grill scrubber using 100% materials from the US and failed.

[1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZTGwcHQfLY

brynnbee2• 11 days ago

The claim he failed seems like hyperbole. He couldn't find an existing manufacturer for chainmail in the US but this is a fairly trivial and niche thing to create, and is more a reflection of how uncommon it is for people to need that specific type and size of chain mail than it is that the US is incapable of making it. The other part is from Costa Rica only bc he hasn't yet made the injection mold for it, like he did for the handle itself.

Aurornis2• 11 days ago

You have to separate the YouTube clickbait from the real learning content in there.

US manufacturing is expensive because wages are high, but also because we focus on the high end work that pays more . Even the small machine shops I used 10 years ago for small scale production runs are no longer interested in doing any small batch work. They have more contract work from big companies than they can handle, and the big companies pay more and have higher order quantities.

If you’re a shop or a factory in the US you’re never going to take some small orders for a grill brush from some YouTuber who doesn’t have any expertise in marketing grill brushes. Everyone is going to turn that order down because there’s no money or future in it, but there’s plenty of better work that pays better from companies who want to keep using your services in the future.

gcanyon• 11 days ago

One interesting point is that China "can't" (more like "is significantly behind on") manufacture jet engines -- the blades are the sticking point, they are ridiculously engineered.

cherryteastain• 12 days ago

How are these types of awards usually structured? Are they just grants? If so, doesn't that create a perverse incentive to take the money even if you never intend to deliver the result?

ahoka• 12 days ago

No way! That would be a handout.

Brybry• 11 days ago

You can see the two awards on govspending. [1][2]

Interestingly govspending says only $8.7 million of the $10 million award has been outlayed but I guess it's possible it just doesn't have the outlay info for the $123 million contract?

I think the contract type is a 'firm fixed-price definitive contract' but what happens when the contractor doesn't manage to create the production capability in the contract?

I found a FOIA request on muckrock[3] but it didn't seem to have anything related to the contract in terms of penalties.

[1][$123.1 million] https://www.usaspending.gov/award/CONT_AWD_FA850521C0005_970...

https://www.highergov.com/contract/FA850521C0005/

https://g2xchange.com/app/awards/contracts/CONT_AWD_FA850521...

[2][$10 million] https://www.usaspending.gov/award/CONT_AWD_75A50525C00001_75...

[3] https://www.muckrock.com/foi/united-states-of-america-10/con...

Alien1Being• 12 days ago

Decline and Fall of the American Empire

https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/decline-and-fall-of-the-a...

On the other hand the US is still very good at bombing small, poor countries...

Danox6• 11 days ago

That time is coming to an end…

cyberge99• 12 days ago

Needs an orthogonal approach. Perhaps Elmer's glue that physician’s can dip their hands in and rinse off?

fkdk• 12 days ago

Some of my early research (elementary school) suggested that certain glues can form a peelable, skin-like layer. Maybe that could be a promising way forward?

marking-time• 11 days ago

:) Love the early research. It seems to me that your product could be useful, particularly since those gloves are hard to put on.

biophysboy• 11 days ago

I did the same research in elementary school! My parents were my seed investors. They asked for 25% of equity - all I ended up giving them was some collectible artwork for the fridge.

michaelmrose9• 11 days ago

Gloves are sterile wouldn't this tend to embed whatever is on the hands in the surface as it dries?

NetMageSCW6• 11 days ago

Which is fine - when you put on gloves, they just cover up whatever is on your skin in the same way.

shawn_w• 11 days ago

Medical gloves are not sterile (outside maybe of ones specifically packaged for use in an OR).

Peanuts99• 11 days ago

Every glove is tested for conductivity to ensure it's not got tiny holes in, you can't do that with 'glue gloves'.

jongjong2• 12 days ago

In most of the west, technically talented people are fully subjugated to suits so I'm not surprised.

Sometimes, there are brief moments when technical people are given the control they need to deliver... But after a few years, they are again subjugated to MBAs in suits again and the capacity is lost.

I see this constantly nowadays. As a technical person, there are many companies/roles where the constraints set you up for failure from the beginning. I've delivered some very complex projects but I've also worked at jobs on far simpler projects where I knew since day 1 that the project wouldn't pan out due to counter-productive technical constraints being imposed... but you know the company is well positioned in the financial system and that the outcome won't matter; so you take the job anyway. You still get the high pay and the prestige from the brand name. There are many companies like this where people seem to keep failing upwards and stock price always goes up.

orphereus2• 12 days ago

Shouldn't free market reward companies that go the other way and where people don't "fail upwards"? It is kind of demoralising to think otherwise, but it seems it is true.

We see it everywhere. Bad companies making bad decisions keep surviving, and actually the vast majority of companies are like this.

One implication is that MBAs in suits that make bad decisions are actually right and their decisions are not bad. The other implication is that there is no free market, no meritocracy and the truth is, game was rigged from the start.

Edit: I should add that most of this is anegdotal evidence and a general feeling I have. It is not a very powerful argument I'm making.

jongjong2• 12 days ago

I agree, a free market would work that way... Yet 'fail upwards' and zombie companies seem to be the default. Personally I don't believe that what we have in the west is a free market. I think these days, it's probably less free than the one in China. The market here is completely smothered by regulations.

For example, about a month ago, I saw a video about people farming frogs in China... To collect secretions for medical use. At first I thought WTF. But then they mentioned how much it sells for and I thought "Wow. We have a lot of cane toads here everywhere, it would be a great business to do here." I actually started thinking of doing this... This is really out there for me because I'm a software engineer; but I started seriously considering this. But guess what? I did my research and turns out it's illegal to do it in my country (Australia) because the frog secretions would be considered an illicit substance and you need to go through some expensive process to obtain a license. Yes, you need a license to farm frogs...

A few weeks back, I read news about someone who got arrested for farming cockroaches (as reptile food for zoos)... It's like all the entry-point business opportunities have become illegal.

Every time I heard of a case like this where some really good niche business opportunity is illegal in Australia, I asked my AI if this practice is legal in China and the answer is almost always yes.

The other day, I was watching a documentary about Philippines and I saw a kind of makeshift resort built literally on top of a coral reef. Really amazing looking. They seemed to be getting good reviews and actually making money... This would NEVER be allowed in my country. At best, you could purchase a ship for millions of dollars then apply for expensive licenses, then you'd have limits on how many people you can take at a time, etc... So many constraints and regulations. Such artificially high capital requirements. It would be a worse experience and less profitable; and you'd have to be filthy rich just to get a chance to engage in that highly constrained, mediocre business activity.

inigyou• 12 days ago

The market rewards companies that know how to play the market, and the market isn't a free market.

mrkeen2• 11 days ago

The market does reward proficiency. We live in the punished timeline. No contradiction. Most software is buggy and most businesses fail.

Danox6• 11 days ago

The problem with MBAs and lawyers is that they are not problem solvers. They are the embodiment of short-term thinking not all just most.

Danox6• 11 days ago

Lawyers and finance people everywhere at the top, running everything with problem solvers shoved to the back of the line.

China will suffer the same fate if they allow lawyers/MBA’s to run their country.

swarnie• 12 days ago

I do good price for you my Amerifriend

For 500m i'll make all the gloves you want, we can slap as many X's on the size as you desire/require.

Let me know. Waiting for your call.

lthi747• 12 days ago

Am I the only one, that can’t read the article because it requires subscription?

CoastalCoder• 12 days ago

One of the comments provides an archive link to the story.

I was kind of able to read that on my Android phone, but something on the page made panning really janky so I gave up.

dmix• 12 days ago

The article mentions access to NBR latex being an issue, but doesn’t explain that this is less commonly produced in America because they produces much more shale gas these days which doesn’t result in enough butadiene needed. So the most important supply chain to build the product is mostly coming out of Asian and European crackers. Giving an advantage to the Malaysian factories on top of the other lower costs of business there.

Which makes you wonder why the government thought it was a feasible investment or if they didn’t care and hand waved it with ‘national security’.

voakbasda• 11 days ago

When politicians act, they look for political wins, not financial ones. If they get both, great, but they could care less about fiscal responsibility. The system’s purpose is what it does.

gdhvkkk• 11 days ago

Nice comment. And to me this just points out that due to specialization, you’re probably always going to be higher cost on something. But that’s not necessarily bad

https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/040615/what-are-eco...

petra3• 11 days ago

In cases of emergency, like COVID, is butadiene supply limited or for the right price the US, and in general, the world, could get enough butadiene ?

Illniyar• 11 days ago

The article headline makes it seem like the factories couldn't make the gloves.

But further down it says that the cost was double and factories couldn't get buyers.

These are very different failure modes, and speak to very different solutions.

reactordev4• 11 days ago

One sounds incapable from a skill perspective, the other is incapable from a market perspective. I’ll take the later over the former any day.

samsolomon• 11 days ago

Agree. The problem is over extended lengths of time the people with the skills to make these things—or make tools that make them—will leave the workforce.

That's how this goes from being a market issue to a skill issue.

stingraycharles• 11 days ago

The later form was part of the design from the beginning: relying on imports for something this critical in times of an epidemic was a supply chain risk. It was never intended to compete in terms of pricing.

It baffles me that this wasn’t made more explicit? That seems to be the root cause of the failure.

quotemstr2• 11 days ago

Over time, the latter becomes the former.

croes2• 11 days ago

If the price is too high you aren’t skilled enough to make them cheaper

trebligdivad2• 11 days ago

That might have been a bargain if you could have done it during peak Covid. Having the capability to make them is worth a lot in resilience.

brianwawok2• 11 days ago

Who’s paying to bring online a factory that sites idle just in case? Are you also paying workers to sit there idle?

wbl• 11 days ago

Or stockpile a two year supply. You can get a lot with a billion dollars.

FrankyHollywood• 11 days ago

Exactly, the article also mentions "Only about 1% of those used in the US are made domestically".

It's already being done so it seems more a cost related issue than lack of knowledge.

natbennett• 10 days ago

Headlines and articles are typically written by different people with different goals.

matchbok34• 11 days ago

Whether the US can make "gloves" is actually less interesting than whether the US even has the technical ability, infrastructure, and knowledge to spin up a glove factory in an emergency. Just like drones, batter tech, etc. Another area where the current admin is failing, and putting our country behind China.

NetMageSCW6• 11 days ago

As bad as the current administration is, this is one area where they are trying to reverse globalization in the stupidest way possible, so not their fault. These things happened years before now.

OutOfHere• 11 days ago

Cheap agentic robotics can change this by decreasing the cost of labor.

ur-whale• 11 days ago

https://archive.is/wtC7m

whatever13• 11 days ago

I wonder whether with AI we will be able to document more efficiently all of the nuances of production so if we need to ramp up a forgotten process we can do it faster.

There is so much domain expertise that exists in production that is not documented, because who has time for writing documentation when your floor is on fire.

But if writing documentation is something free and can be automated (maybe from the company internal comms), maybe we have a chance?

delusional• 11 days ago

How would the "AI" figure out what the process is? That's non-sense.

whatever13• 11 days ago

Because of the slack complaints?

NetMageSCW6• 11 days ago

Paywall.

black6• 11 days ago

Asian manufacturing will continue to undercut Western manufacturing on cost due to the absence of safety culture and the spending that comes with it. The value of human life is higher in the West, and the manufacturing costs reflect that.

NetMageSCW6• 11 days ago

That has nothing to do with the issue here, which is that the raw materials cost more because we don’t have access to the right natural resources.

Danox6• 11 days ago

Most Coastal areas, lakes, rivers, river deltas near large human settlements say differently in the USA and across the world, the United States had better start thinking long-term and figuring out where they want to be in the world, time is running out. The trajectory right now is downward…

Why it's so difficult to produce American-made medical gloves

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