The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/ideas/humboldt-education-system-bildung-1.7172093

by pseudolus • 24 days ago

111 71 24 days ago

synecdoche• 24 days ago

I've heard the opposite. That is was designed and based on military organisation and for individuals to conform to the contemporary world view.

mdp2021• 24 days ago

Well, where. Of course the Philosopher and the Dictator will have different positions on the matter. The thing is that (1) there is a dialectic between the two perspectives and that (2) in actual historical instances different parties will have had more space for action.

steephax• 24 days ago

Yes, there's a nice explanation of its origins in Moonwalking with Einstein.

logicchains• 24 days ago

The article addresses this:

"Yet over the years, as Humboldt's public education system was adopted, modified and spread around the world, Bildung — the cultivation of our human potential — may well have been the critical piece left out.

Soon, the state's influence on education took hold, with its own agenda. This is explored in part two of the documentary, Humboldt's Ghost."

speak_plainly• 24 days ago

This is true. While Humboldt designed the overarching structure of the school, Johann Gottlieb Fichte argued that Prussia lost to Napoleon because they were too individualistic and was able to influence ideas of early education in those schools. The aim, through Fichte, became a system designed to break parental bonds, who he believed filled kids heads with selfish, private interests, and in turn, the goal of education was to develop children into workers and soldiers. Fichte famously suggested that a proper education should destroy a student's free will so thoroughly that they could never choose to do anything other than what the state required.

loloquwowndueo• 24 days ago

Got any references for this? It’s pretty interesting, would like to know more.

EffectFeisty627• 24 days ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Taylor_Gatto Gatto asserts the following regarding what school does to children in Dumbing Us Down:

    It confuses the students. It presents an incoherent ensemble of information that the child needs to memorize to stay in school. Apart from the tests and trials, this programming is similar to the television; it fills almost all the "free" time of children. One sees and hears something, only to forget it again.
    It teaches them to accept their class affiliation.
    It makes them indifferent.
    It makes them emotionally dependent.
    It makes them intellectually dependent.
    It teaches them a kind of self-confidence that requires constant confirmation by experts (provisional self-esteem).
    It makes it clear to them that they cannot hide, because they are always supervised.[

TimByte4• 24 days ago

Maybe the real lesson is that public education has always had both impulses: emancipation and formation on one hand, conformity and state needs on the other

steve1977• 24 days ago

Part of the problem might be that the terms are not used in the same way in the Anglosphere and in Germany.

In Germany, the Prussian Reforms refer to what is described in the article and attributed to Wilhelm von Humboldt, this was in the late 18th century.

What you are probably referring to is the Generallandschulreglement by Johan Johann Julius Hecker under Frederick the Great. This was published in 1763, around 40 years before von Humboldt.

TimByte4• 24 days ago

I think both can be true, depending on which layer of the system you're looking at

breezybottom• 24 days ago

Oh, well if you've heard it, then it must be true. Especially if ChatGPT said it.

lmf4lol2• 24 days ago

I was just reading Schillers letters on the Aesthetic Education of Man. It made me sad that we have such profound insight available on beauty and a fulfilling life, and still produce a school system that is completely contrary to a proper human existence.

I also vividly recall pg’s reflections on the school system in Hackers and Founders. He was spot on with his observations and still is. My own experience made so much more sense. He wrote that a decade ago it hink. Still, Nothing changed!

I have two daughters. One just finished primary school and the second is halfway through primary. Its a disaster. They dont learn proper reading and math, they dony learn creativity. Its just a big waste of time sending them there to be honest. Heck, they watch 1 hour of stupid TV shows there everyday.. why??? My wife home schools them additionally, so that they learn proper reading, math, history & art. Its sad that this is necessary. My daughters excel now all tests obviously but its frightening to see how low the average skill level of their peers is. there are 12 year olds who cant read a paragraph or do simple maths in their head. They dont know anything about the history of the country.. Its terrifying that this is the future generation. They need to carry the torch after all.

And its not the kids fault. WE as a society failed them!!!!

ps i am from Amsterdam, NL btw

Aurornis• 24 days ago

They dont learn proper reading and math, they dony learn creativity. Its just a big waste of time sending them there to be honest. Heck, they watch 1 hour of stupid TV shows there everyday.. why???

I am not in Amsterdam, but this seems very unexpectedly wrong. For as much as people complain about the US education system, I’ve been amazed watching how early my kids and friends’ kids at various schools around here have picked up reading and math. They’re learning these things earlier than I did as a child and earlier than I thought they would in the school system.

That’s not to say that every school is perfect, but it’s all been so much better than I would have expected from the extreme negative sentiment that I read online. The only explanation I can come up with is that school quality varies by a wide range from school to school or region to region, maybe more than the tests and statistics can show.

Aeolun4• 24 days ago

I think this is a thing in the Netherlands, where schools are almost painfully standardized. It only matters to a degree which primary school you go to, you’ll have more or less the same education.

lmf4lol2• 24 days ago

we had a pretty good education system. But it got much more worse in the last decade(s).

And this is not only my personal anecdote, There are numerous studies on this. One for instance, that really shook me, reported that around 1/3 of graduates from the “practical level” of secondary school cant tell you what a newspaper article was about after reading it. And this was not the case “back in the days”.

Germany has the same problem btw. They perform less and less well at all kinds of standardized tests. Just like the Dutch.

So there is sth seriously wrong!

pacbard• 24 days ago

My first reaction is that it depends on who you read.

The linked article talks about Wilhelm von Humboldt's philosophy of education. While I haven't read much into 19th-century German literature, the article seems to suggest that a national education system is foundational in nation building and, possibly on-brand romanticism, that the final goal of education is to produce "independent, critical thinkers".

The same ideals have driven the initial push for public schooling in the United States (which happened at the same time at least in the big East Coast cities). However, with the expansion west, schooling became more of an assimilation instrument, where the preparation of "informed citizens" became more of the goal. This led to public school clashes with established religious schools (mostly Catholic in Chicago and in California), which then resulted in a full separation between public and religious school funding.

The goal of education seemed to have changed with the beginning of the 20th century and the push for universal high school. Powell, Farrar, & Cohen argue in "Shopping Mall High School"[^1] that universal secondary education forced schools to become more “consumer-oriented" by offering classes and activities (i.e., sports) that would keep students in school until 18, while compromising with their original ideals to prepare citizens or critical thinkers.

[^1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shopping_mall_high_school

TimByte4• 24 days ago

That may be why the rhetoric of education stays lofty while the day-to-day machinery often feels much more pragmatic

netcan2• 24 days ago

There have been many wonderful ideas and concepts for education systems over the centuries. They have/had different, sometimes contradictory philosophies. Most fall short of their values and ambitions, regardless of what these are.

IMO, the pressures leading to degradation are all somehow linked to universalization:

(a) Resource constraints. Student/teacher ratios. The availability of good teachers, at scale. A great teacher is the ultimate lever. But great teachers in every class, with enough time and energy to invest in every student... very hard to achieve at national scale.

(b) Voluntary, self-motivated students who want to learn vs checked-out teenagers that just want to pass the exam with minimum effort... it's a massive difference. It's the difference between a world class gymnastics club and the PE class from an 80s teen movie. Even if half the class is highly motivated, it can't be like the gymnastics club when half the class is there involuntarily.

The visionary, optimistic concepts are usually focused on what students can achieve when motivated and willing. Universal, mandatory education rarely achieves this attitude.

(c) The bureaucracy required for scale. Decisions about teaching methods, standardized testing and whatnot... these can be performing terribly for years and decades before getting dropped. A department starts judging schools or teachers by standardized tests... and then a whole generation falls into a stale "teaching to the test" paradigm that disillusions both teacher and student.

"Why are we doing this" - because we have to.

TimByte4• 24 days ago

Mandatory education is still probably better than the alternative but it does seem to create a constant tension: the system has to serve students who want very different things from it

WillAdams4• 24 days ago

The solution would seem to be a flexible system which identifies and works with the needs of each student.

A school system I attended when I was young divided classes between academic and social --- social classes were attended at one's age level, academic classes were attended at a student's ability levels, I believe that there were also trade school tracks, prompted by students taking Sloyd Woodworking claseses:

https://rainfordrestorations.com/tag/sloyd/

jona-f• 24 days ago

Having grown up in Germany I have firsthand experience how Humboldt's ideals fall short. I don't think I fully agree your explanation.

a) Teachers themselves went through this system, so if it's so great, it should produce plenty of great teachers

b) Now we are blaming the kids for the failure of the system?

c) Yes, absolutely, but is the bureaucracy really inevitable, or is it even contradictory to the original idea?

Anyhow, Humboldt's humanism was ideology from the start. It was a way to change as little as possible from christian values. Instead of God making humans all great now it is the great human mind and civilization.

By now, most of German academia is a bubble for humanistic fundamentalists, that have long lost their connection to reality.

DoctorOetker2• 24 days ago

After WWI, the "Great War", everyone thought it was the final war, and would never be repeated. (So no profound changes in the educational system were applied).

After WWII, and observing how it could occur despite the recent occurrence of WWI, it was decided to put extra focus on the horrors of war in Western Europe.

Both on allied as well as axis side, sure, but especially on axis educational systems.

Having grown up in Belgium, I can confirm that the never-ending stream of unprompted details of the horrors of WWI and WWII were not exactly "fun" part of education, but hey at least we haven't been lobbing chemicals at each other for the last ~80 years, so at least it seems to work, here, locally in Western Europe, despite all the side-effects of such an education.

That said, I don't feel confident that any insights that may truly improve education in Western Europe (without losing the pacifying -as in peace generating- benefits somehow) would apply well to educational systems elsewhere, because a large fraction of negative side effects in Western European education stem precisely from the educational pivot after WWII.

sandworm101• 24 days ago

It is naive to think that gradeschool is all about education when it serves so many other social functions. Firstly, it is free daily child care, a concept that allows parents to be more productive workers. A school is the point where various government agencies have contact with children. Vacinations, nutrition and the general welfare of kids is daily inspected. If a kid is in trouble, a teacher is the most likely government employee to notice. But perhaps most importantly, school is a testing ground. Our society doesnt have the resources to turn everyone into doctors and astronauts. School is where we start sorting out who will be granted access to future education and who will not. It isnt about actually learning anything.

mcsniff• 24 days ago

And this is exactly why people are, have been, and should continue to opt out and/or opt in if they choose.

I appreciate your comment doesn't try to state if these are good or bad things, just that they are.

Aeolun4• 24 days ago

It isnt about actually learning anything.

It is definitely appreciated if you actually learn something there, and often required to earn any of the goodies.

NoMoreNicksLeft• 24 days ago

So, your take is that schools are:

1. Free government daycare

2. Inspection/interference with parenting

3. Surveillance towards prosecuting negligent parents

4. Evaluation of conscripts

I think I agree 100%. It is exactly those things, even if I can't be so cheerful as you about it. That's why my children have never stepped foot inside a school.

IAmBroom3• 23 days ago

If this is remotely true, then schools have either always had these functions, or there was a great tipping point where the schools were dramatically repurposed worldwide.

Taking children out of the farm workforce was actually a huge negative; so much so that laws were passed to require their attendance - everywhere, essentially.

Vaccines and suppplemental nutrition are only a very modern idea. Children brought their own lunches, and suffered from now mostly-extinct diseases.

Schools, even general education, existed before the poor had a real path to higher education. Doctors and lawyers were admitted based on criteria like if their fathers had attended - thus excluding the poor a priori.

You're 0/3.

So when are you claiming this great sea-change in schooling occurred? Coincident with the fluoride-based 5G mind control?

obscurette3• 24 days ago

Universal, mandatory education rarely achieves this attitude.

As a former teacher I think that's very common, but a fatal error to assume that it's something that it's up to education to achieve this at all. It's up to student to decide what they want to achieve, what their motivation is, whether they are motivated at all etc. The point of education have always been to provide students tools.

Btw, what makes a great teacher? One of my most influential teachers was universally hated by the rest of the class.

bluGill4• 24 days ago

As a taxpayer and citizen, there are good reasons I want every kid to achieve great education results. The fact that it is probably impossible, is irrelevant. I want that. This is why we have universal education in most countries.

Despite the fact that the results aren't what they could be in an ideal world where every student is motivated, the results are much better than any place where education is not universal.

IAmBroom3• 23 days ago

You are, I think, blinded by the fact that you were a HS teacher. Primary grade teachers teach principle societal objects by rote and practice, not by encouraging students to "go discover the alphabet on their own". Middle-school takes it up a notch, and maybe by (USA) junior high school students' brains are ready for learning how to learn, but for me it wasn't until I reached HS that a teacher ever challenged me to interpret the "facts" I was presented with in a novel, personal way - to use my skillset to understand the facts, discern facts from propaganda or beliefs, and so on.

fasterik• 24 days ago

IMO, the pressures leading to degradation are all somehow linked to universalization

Liberalism is fundamentally a universalist idea. I mean "liberal" in the original sense: the cultivation of free and indepdendent human beings capable of governing themselves. A democratic society can't survive for long without universal liberal education.

We need to distinguish between education and the education system. You make good points that the system as it is today doesn't scale as much as we might like. But that doesn't mean we should abandon the goal of universal education. Unfortunately, I think the solution requires something much broader and deeper than more schools and more teachers. It requires a culture that values learning and independent thinking, parents who bring up children who are curious and willing to learn, and institutions that uphold these values in society.

We made a lot of progress over the past few centuries, but now there's an increasing number of people who want to question and undermine the core values of liberalism and replace them with something either more elitist, more authoritarian, or both.

khurs• 24 days ago

"Soon, the state's influence on education took hold, with its own agenda. This is explored in part two of the documentary, Humboldt's Ghost."

Part two link is not working...

https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/audio/1.7175393

brnaftr361• 24 days ago

The title of pt. 2 is How our education system is far from its original ideals. It's available on apple and audible.

timbit423• 24 days ago

https://www.audible.ca/podcast/How-our-education-system-is-f...

hackermailman• 24 days ago

The origins of mandatory education was Athens citizens being bamboozled by rhetoric all detailed here in this lecture https://youtu.be/H0z9sJyTv2w

Neitzsche had an interesting set of lectures he gave about the future of schools if you can get through the annoying style of a fictitious argument between philosopher and student. https://www.gutenberg.org/files/28146/28146-h/28146-h.htm

rramadass• 24 days ago

Also relevant:

Talks to Teachers on Psychology: And to Students on some of Life's Ideals by William James - https://www.gutenberg.org/files/16287/16287-h/16287-h.htm

What William James Still Teaches Us About Teaching: A Reflective Look at "Talks to Teachers" in Ed Psych Today - https://www.nzlamb.org/blog/what-william-james-still-teaches...

This 19th-Century Book Is Still Timely for Teachers - https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/opinion-this-19th-c...

William James’s pragmatism in education, from experiential learning to global application - https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/2331186X.2026.2...

elcritch2• 24 days ago

It’s sad to me after reading stories like this how much Western societies have generally lost the pursuit of Bildung (wisdom, virtue) that shaped men like Wilhelm von Humboldt's.

I’ve come to firmly believe that a society which looses the pursuit of the noble in the individual in exchange for mere technological excellence will in the long run loose technical ability as well.

It’s not even about a religious ideals, but secular ones as well. Really any belief system that puts the onus on individuals to pursue nobleness, as opposed to the more empty “reforming society” or “fixing society” that universities in particular appear fixated on currently.

Reminds me of CS Lewis’ critiques our modern age in “Abolition of Man” who critiqued it very well.

Of course we see this tension of education of the individual vs mass indoctrination in most western public school systems. TFA was a good read, as I’d always assumed and read that universal education was created as just a tool for mass indoctrination for obedient workers.

itsamario2• 24 days ago

Voting rights was a superficial act of righteousness.

Allowing anyone to vote that can color in lines was when the patients started running the place.

When words lose their meaning, people lose their freedom.

supertroop• 24 days ago

We went from critical thinking to only some people can participate in society in the blink of an eye. What if you’re one of the people deemed too dumb? Did that ever occur to you?

elcritch2• 24 days ago

Not really, it was based on the belief of the ability and dignity of the individual.

My mind goes more to the Cultural Revolution in China where millions were killed or starved because a bunch of college students decided that the enemies were the “five black categories” who were enemies of “the people”.

zkmon• 24 days ago

I have a different view from a developing country.

Those were great ideals and pristine origins of schooling. But somewhere post-industrialization, schooling turned into training camps that would suck away the youth from their families, villages and rural professions, into work that would power the clerical and factory jobs. It was called nation building, economy work, office work, machine work, transport work etc. But the effect was, villages and families were broken.

The nation building happened at the cost of family separation, uprooting of people and families from their native locations, suffering hectic work schedules in alien lands. That's the gift of schooling and higher education.

I have a cousin who escaped schooling when he was 8. He ran away from the town where he was put into school, walked 25 kilometers in the night to reach our village. He never went back to school. Looking back, I would rate his life quality and achievements far better that those of us who went through all the tough exams, roamed around the globe, worked too hard to be in the job etc. he doesn't know about internet, but his health and happiness are far superior due to sticking to his home and farm.

robocat• 24 days ago

In my experience, highly motivated independent people do well in their lives.

8. He ran away > I would rate his life quality and achievements far better

Selection bias : always a poor starter for cause and effect arguments.

All my smartest friends left school at 15 or earlier. Also selection bias since I haven't made friends with any dummies that left school early. I wish I had been that driven - I was a slow-learner to understand the value of non-academic skills.

timbit423• 24 days ago

This is Part 1 and only 6 minutes long. The links to Part 2 are broken.

timbit423• 24 days ago

It's on Apple and Audible (56 minutes): https://www.audible.ca/podcast/How-our-education-system-is-f...

Havoc• 24 days ago

wanted students to learn how to reach their full inner potential, their 'Bildung.'

Whoever wrote this clearly didn’t know that Bildung is just German for education

deterministic• 24 days ago

The public school system in most countries has been spectacularly successful. In fact, much of the West's success is built on it.

Having said that, people are different. They have different IQs, interests, abilities, motivation, and levels of family support. No education system will work equally well for everyone.

That isn't a problem with today's public school system. It's a problem that any education system would face. Someone with an IQ of 70 will never understand concepts like compound interest, no matter how much time, money, or tutoring is provided. While a smart and motivated person will usually learn despite a mediocre school system.

This is why every attempt to "fix" the public school system has failed spectacularly.

whatever1• 24 days ago

We don’t want too many independent critical thinkers. This is how corruption gets born. People being too smart to follow the rules.

See Latin America, south Europe. Inconceivable wealth and natural resources. Full of independent thinkers cannot even do basic things without bribes.

IAmBroom3• 23 days ago

That... is quite the long and tenuous thread you've drawn.

The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)

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