Neanderthals ran 'fat factories' 125k years ago (2025)

https://www.universiteitleiden.nl/en/news/2025/07/neanderthals-ran-fat-factories-125000-years-ago

by andsoitis • 3 months ago

296 148 3 months ago

irdc• 3 months ago

This pairs nicely with the recent publications around Neanderthal cognitive abilities and how there likely similar to ours (https://arstechnica.com/science/2026/04/neanderthal-brains-m...).

sokoloff4• 3 months ago

I find things like that hard to perfectly square with observations like the Flynn Effect (“the substantial and long-sustained increase in both fluid and crystallized intelligence test scores that were measured in many parts of the world over the 20th century”): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect

Epa095• 3 months ago

Why? Draw the line backwards, and in a couple of decades you are down at 0 IQ. That's clearly absurd, you can't draw any conclusions of IQ significantly before 1950 from how the line behaves after 1950.

echelon• 3 months ago

Firstly, this is completely orthogonal. But it's also improper reasoning.

If Neanderthal had bigger brains (they did) or had different cognitive abilities, there's a chance they were baseline smarter than homo sapiens at the time.

Being perhaps a little smarter doesn't mean you win the evolutionary game. There are so many factors at play.

cwnyth• 3 months ago

Precisely why is this hard to square away?

behringer• 3 months ago

Are you suggesting our brains are getting better? I find it far more likely that our improved education techniques and our skyrocketing access to information as being the cause.

MrBuddyCasino• 3 months ago

The Flynn effect isn’t real.

https://www.cremieux.xyz/p/the-demise-of-the-flynn-effect

ZeroGravitas• 3 months ago

The Flynn effect has its own little nurture vs nature debate within it.

Was it better medicine and food that stopped both your height and your brain from being stunted?

Or was it people being trained from birth for a world where doing abstract brain teaser tests was important.

Notably both cause problems for the typical racist's use of IQs. If you can improve the scores with such interventions it makes a lot of their genocidal policy recommendations seem less scientifically sound, so they put a lot of effort into denying that IQ scores can be improved by interventions. Even though they have been, for decades.

ordu• 3 months ago

I wouldn't give the Flynn effect a lot of weight. The numbers are from IQ tests. No one knows what they measure, they are tuned for a population, for the most of time the Flynn effect had place IQ test scores were used for hiring, school placement, and policy decisions (so Goodheart's Law was at play, how'd you think?).

It is a curious effect, I agree, I'd like to know why it was so, but probably I will not know for sure (I'm a big fan of a scientific method, but I don't believe it is up to a task), and so I personally prefer just ignore it.

tcp_handshaker2• 3 months ago

The real reason why now, every two weeks, you are bombarded with articles about how great Neanderthals were... - https://www.youtube.com/shorts/2UUsisXvwoM

dijit4• 3 months ago

They were pretty great though.

I mean, racism and people using anthropology to try and act superior to each other aside (which, I will grant, is a pretty big fucking aside): neanderthals were crazy strong and had bodies which had much more "explosive" muscle fibres than that of modern humans (or H. Sapiens of the era).

They, of course, had significant misgivings which likely led to their extinction- but I wonder how a stocky, heavy-browed, big-toothed, barrel-chested bloke with no chin but a jaw like a breeze block Neanderthal would get along in todays world. They're built for Rugby.

Would be cool to experience.

kioleanu• 3 months ago

If I enable reader mode on this article on my iPhone, I get an AI summary instead of the article text. I’d it the sure doing that or my phone? I hate it either way as there’s no way to read the article in reader mode

rogerrogerr• 3 months ago

I assume you're seeing the text starting with "The authors emphasise the sheer quantity of herbivores"? I see that too in reader mode, both on my iPhone and Mac.

The text is in the article, second paragraph under "survival strategies". I don't see any obvious reason in the HTML why reader mode is skipping everything else.

Aardwolf• 3 months ago

Firefox reader view on PC shows the exact same text as is in the article

Tagbert• 3 months ago

For some reason, Safari (on Mac) is only pulling two paragraphs from the source. it isn't AI generated but the parsing routine seems to break on this page. I don't see any particular properties that make these paragraphs stand out from the others.

The Neumark-Nord discoveries are continuing to reshape our view of Neanderthal adaptability and survival strategies. They show that Neanderthals could plan ahead, process food efficiently and make sophisticated use of their environment.

The authors emphasise the sheer quantity of herbivores that Neanderthals must have routinely been ‘harvesting’ in this warm-temperate phase: beyond the remains of minimally 172 large mammals processed at that small site alone within a very short period, hundreds of herbivores, including straight-tusked elephants, were butchered around the Neumark-Nord 1 lake in the early Last Interglacial, within the excavated areas only. Other exposures in the wider area around Neumark-Nord have yielded more coarse-grained evidence of regular exploitation of the same range of prey animals, at sites such as Rabutz, Gröbern and <a href="https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2309427120">Taubach</a>. The last site contained cut-marked remains of 76 rhinos and 40 straight-tusked elephants. Roebroeks: ‘Safely assuming that with these sites we are only looking at the tip of the proverbial ice-berg of Neanderthal impact on herbivore populations, especially on slowly-reproducing taxa, could have been substantial during the Last Interglacial.’

rolph• 3 months ago

try this maybe?

https://doi.org/10.1126/sciadv.adv1257

https://www.science.org/doi/pdf/10.1126/sciadv.adv1257 [PDF]

ewy1• 3 months ago

university of leiden is a great institution and i am blessed for having studied there despite dropping out!

JackFr• 3 months ago

“Be he alive or be he dead, I’ll grind his bones to make my bread.”

nntwozz2• 3 months ago

Fee Fi Fo Fum, I smell the blood of an Englishman!

Neywiny• 3 months ago

Do we know how many people were in the community? Maybe I missed it in the article? 2000 people worth it food a day is hard to put into perspective otherwise. Though it's all very impressive regardless

washadjeffmad• 3 months ago

Based on 20g rdv, they could be estimating ~40kg of rendered fat for 2000 servings. I can't tell from the wording whether they don't know the population and are implying that's a possible maximum or are just trying to relay the observed production capacity.

Look into pre-Colombian grease trails, which we have much better logistical records for.

russellbeattie• 3 months ago

Here's something random about "Neanderthal".

The word comes from the Neander Valley (Neander-thal) where their fossils were originally discovered. It was named after Joachim Neander, a 17th-century German pastor. Neander is a latinization of his family name Neumann, meaning "new man".

So not only did we discover a new type of man in a valley named new man, but the computers that are used for artificial intelligence (a future type of new man) all use the von Neumann architecture.

I found that amusing.

(Other random detail: The word "dollar" is derived from "thal". The Holy Roman Empire first minted standardized 1 ounce coins made out of silver from mines in Joachimsthal ("Joachim's Valley") and so were called Joachimsthalers. That got shortened to "thaler", then through Low German "daler" then Dutch to English.)

xp842• 3 months ago

If you have a substack, I would subscribe to it

andrekandre• 3 months ago

  > The word "dollar" is derived from "thal".

you are my hero; and this is why i love hn, cause this was something in the back of my mind that i wanted to find out about, and what do you know, a fellow hn'er just wrote it in a random comment. thanks!!

alanbernstein2• 3 months ago

As they say, history rhymes

ant6n3• 3 months ago

Isn’t that what George Lukas said about Star Wars?

newsy-combi• 3 months ago

Wait till you find out we live in a Von Neumann Universe

herodoturtle• 3 months ago

Here's something random about "Neanderthal"

If you'll permit me to throw in some fun (and arguably related) trivia:

Niander Wallace is the main antagonist in Blade Runner 2049. He's a genius industrialist that manufacturers high-tech human "replicants" for profit, and in pursuit of his ultimate goal to "storm Eden and retake her". An yet the thing that holds him back is his inability to get his replicants to procreate.

nntwozz2• 3 months ago

And that's how Toyota eventually got to lean manufacturing, impressive!

paulgerhardt• 3 months ago

Pretty clever solution to rabbit starvation.

multjoy• 3 months ago

They were hunting elephants. It's quite clear that they weren't being forced to subsist on small herbivores.

SideburnsOfDoom2• 3 months ago

"rabbit starvation" refers to a diet of mostly lean protein, deficient in fat. So much so that it results in malnutrition.

Eating nothing but rabbits is one way to get it, but is not really about "subsisting on small herbivores". It's the fact that the meat is very lean, not fatty. Apparently "mal de caribou" is the same thing, and Caribou / Reindeer are not small.

xp842• 3 months ago

the tip of the proverbial ice-berg of Neanderthal impact on herbivore populations, especially on slowly-reproducing taxa, could have been substantial during the Last Interglacial.’

translation: the Neanderthals probably completely wiped out a ton of the species of big animals that once existed in these regions.

Homo sapiens isn’t the only hominid to do that…

devilbunny• 3 months ago

Neanderthals were homo sapiens.

IAmBroom3• 3 months ago

No, they were literally Homo neanderthalensis.

snthpy• 3 months ago

Yeah like the rhinos and elephants that I didn't know you used to get in that area. Maybe they were too efficient and that's what limited their proliferation when they hit resource limits?

amitbidlan• 3 months ago

Planning ahead, bulk processing, storing for later. Sounds less like primitive survival and more like logistics. Every time we dig deeper the gap between them and us gets smaller.

tastyfreeze• 3 months ago

Primitive survival in places with winter requires storing rations for the winter months. Dried meat, fruit, seeds, and rendered fat are what it takes to survive winter.

suddenlybananas• 3 months ago

To be fair, squirrels store things for later.

m3047• 3 months ago

It's possible to make potted meats which will store for a time at room temperature (for extra credit, ferment it like sausage) by covering them in fat. But they didn't have ceramics apparently, I don't know offhand if you could do it in something like an animal stomach. Of course, we put sausage into intestine casings... I dunno make sausages and dip them in fat?

sandworm101• 3 months ago

Question: why do we know this was about food? Bones are boiled for other reasons. Boiling down bones is how you make basic glue. Could this have been something more industrial, the creation of a useful ingredient for weapon making?

fnordpiglet• 3 months ago

Fat is also very very important for soap.

beezlewax2• 3 months ago

Soup

ant6n3• 3 months ago

Soap, soup, goop

myspeed2• 3 months ago

I like the explanation of Neil Tyson on Neanderthal's research.

thehappypm• 3 months ago

Link?

myspeed2• 3 months ago

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/2UUsisXvwoM

askos2• 3 months ago

Fascinating. Considering the industrial scale fat production that the neanderthals managed to operate according to this article, it makes me wonder even more whether we still understand why exactly they went extinct in 80 thousand years later.

beezlewax2• 3 months ago

I thought it was mostly because our ancestors murdered them?

peacebeard4• 3 months ago

Common misconception, more likely outcompeted

jbotz• 3 months ago

The answer that seems to be emerging from several different lines of research is that a) they always had fairly low fertility and b) they didn't really go extinct as such, they just intermixed with Homo Sapiens Sapiens and because the later had much higher fertility, Neanderthal genes got diluted down to the present ~2% in the Eurasian population.

askos2• 3 months ago

Sounds plausible indeed. Anyways, neanderthals operating a large scale fat production 125 thousand years ago could be a good plot for another hollywood movie scenario. Any takers?

namenotrequired• 3 months ago

I thought even after the merge the Neanderthal genes continued to get rarer, indicating natural selection against them

netcan• 3 months ago

There is evidence for neanderthals making gum/glue from birch bark. It's useful for hating stone onto wood for tool making.

I wonder if this bone grease was an edible product or something else. Oils have many uses.

ncr100• 3 months ago

I read this as 'RAT factories' - like Neanderthal decided to breed thousands of rats presumably for food. Assuming rats were meaty and not taboo then, as they are now.

biztos• 3 months ago

They’re still meaty and they aren’t taboo everywhere!

Whenever I go to the family farm I check to see if there are any fat juicy grilled rats at the local market. Alas, I’m still too squeamish to eat them, but I’m working up to it!

aix1• 3 months ago

Your comment reminded me of the Great Hanoi Rat Massacre (I won't spoil the punchline):

https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/hanoi-rat-massacre-190...

el_io• 3 months ago

I've heard exactly the same story about snakes, but that took place in British India.

Probably that (the one I heard) derived from this one.

IAmBroom3• 3 months ago

That's amazing, thank you!

card_zero4• 3 months ago

I keep reading Neanderthal rat factories too! HP Lovecraft would be pleased with us.

comandillos• 3 months ago

Same, and I also read Netherlands instead of Neanderthals.

DonHopkins• 3 months ago

Yeah me to!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Rat%2C_IJlst

De Rat (English: The Rat) is a smock mill in IJlst, Friesland, Netherlands, which was originally built in the seventeenth century at Zaanstreek, North Holland. In 1828 it was moved to IJlst, where it worked using wind power until 1920 and then by electric motor until 1950. The mill was bought by the town of IJlst in 1956 and restored in the mid-1960s. Further restoration in the mid-1970s returned the mill to full working order. De Rat is working for trade and is used as a training mill. The mill is listed as a Rijksmonument (No. 39880).[1]

nomilk2• 3 months ago

The article mentions "rendering fat (from bones)" many times, but doesn't say how neanderthals actually did it? My best guess is they broke the bones into many little pieces, threw them in a fire, and waited for the fire to extinguish and cool, thus producing hardened (rendered) fat.

Feels like the most interesting part of the article was omitted!

deafpolygon3• 3 months ago

It's in there.

At this location, researchers found that Neanderthals not only broke bones to extract marrow but also crushed large mammal bones into tens of thousands of fragments to render calorie-rich bone grease through heating them in water.

nomilk2• 3 months ago

AFAIK Neanderthals didn't have clay pots - how would they hold the water to heat it and put the bone pieces in?

EDIT: I asked claude and it doesn't know for sure but guessed "stone boiling into an organic container — animal stomach, hide, or a bark vessel — remains the most plausible explanation for how they heated the water."

ahazred8ta• 3 months ago

You can make a wooden basin or waterproof pit. Fill it with water, drop in hot stones from a fire. This is common in preceramic cultures. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pot_boiler -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_boiling

deafpolygon3• 3 months ago

Maybe when megafauna disappeared, so too the Neanderthals because their survival strategy was too dependent on them.

lkm0• 3 months ago

Reminds me of the Barbegal mills, built in ancient Rome. The site produced 4.5 tons of flour per day, according to wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbegal_aqueduct_and_mills

nephihaha3• 3 months ago

Some would argue they still do. ;)

shevy-java• 3 months ago

That also must mean that Neanderthals must have been very clever, early on. We already knew they were clever, but 125.000 years ago is really pushing that further. Now the main question is still why and how they went extinct. We have some pieces of the puzzles (mitochondrial DNA found in human mitochondrial DNA) but not a complete picture yet (or, somewhat more complete; we can obviously never reconstruct all pieces of the puzzle).

Qem2• 3 months ago

Perhaps they were very smart, but also they were all autistic[1], so they had poor social skills and had a hard time coordinating large groups against encroaching H. Sapiens Sapiens tribes.

[1] https://communities.springernature.com/posts/neanderthal-dna...

contubernio• 3 months ago

Most likely scenario is a more aggressive, bloodthirsty, violent species of comparable intelligence came along ...

hashlock_p2p• 3 months ago

I am fat so?

ant6n3• 3 months ago

…so you were produced in Neanderthal fat factory?

ozgung• 3 months ago

What is the modern version of this process/product?

Mistletoe• 3 months ago

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/bone-marrow

A dish like that picture or:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rendering_(animal_products)

andrewl• 3 months ago

This is the first I’ve heard of straight-tusked elephants, which are almost twice the mass of modern day elephants. You’d need a lot of cooperation and coordination to kill one of them.

Neanderthals ran 'fat factories' 125k years ago (2025)

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