Alone Together, Again

http://al3x.net/2012/11/11/alone-together-again.html

by michaelfairley • 14 years ago

433 125 14 years ago

themgt• 14 years ago

I spent four years telling anyone who asked how we met that OkCupid’s matching algorithms must have been off. “We were only a seventysomething percent match, with like a twelve percent chance of being enemies. Guess they need to work some bugs out!” The joke’s on me, of course. I emailed the right person at OkCupid to apologize for the years of disparagement.

This about a 4 year relationship? The whole thing reads like someone who needs to do a lot more self-reflection.

beagle3• 14 years ago

I read it as multiple simultaneous realizations, one of them about marriage (a realization forced by his wife initiating the divorce), leading him to reboot himself.

DanBC• 14 years ago

>The whole thing reads like someone who needs to do a lot more self-reflection.

He's 28; 4 years is a big chunk of that life. I'm not quite sure what you mean though. He seems to do some self-reflection, and this post is an example of it made public.

graue• 14 years ago

The suggestion that OkCupid's algorithms were right all along and that's why the 4-year relationship failed is, if taken seriously, indeed questionable. But I'd assume that remark is more an offhanded joke than anything.

mwetzler2• 14 years ago

That part of the story stuck out to me. I don't think he's mentioning it just because it's funny. I think he regrets brushing off that warning flag. I could almost feel his pain when he mentioned it. 12% enemy is significant. It means you are misaligned on some things that are important to you.

Years ago, when my SO and I calculated our compatibility using OKCupid, there was a way to run a report on items that decreased compatibility. We didn't have many, but it was helpful to talk about the few things we did disagree on. I wonder if they were able to do something similar before their marriage; maybe it would have helped.

Sorry for your pain Alex, but glad to see you are getting to experience some wonderful new things. Thank you for sharing this touching piece.

colmvp• 14 years ago

“Divorce is always good news. I know that sounds weird, but it’s true because no good marriage has ever ended in divorce. It’s really that simple. That’s never happened – THAT would be sad. If two people were married and they were really happy and they just had a great thing, and then they got divorced, that would be really sad. But that has happened zero times. Literally zero.”

Louis CK

omGac0W2• 14 years ago

"Ray Charles has killed more Jews than happy marriages have ended in divorce"

Louis CK

Samuel_Michon• 14 years ago

Doesn't that mean that, according to Louis CK, Ray Charles must have at least killed one Jew?

(If no happy marriages have ever ended in divorce, and Ray Charles has never killed a Jew, then Ray hasn't killed more Jews than happy marriages have ended in divorce, but equally is as many.)

And that wasn't the only time Louis CK made the connection:

"There are so many dead people. Ray Charles is dead... Hitler. A bunch of other ones, but mostly those two guys. Ray Charles and Hitler are both dead. And really, it’s the only thing they have in common, because otherwise, they’re very different dudes. Many contrasts between Hitler and Ray Charles. I’m gonna tell you a few of them. Ray Charles was black, Hitler was NOT. Hitler killed several Jews... Too many, I’ll say too many. He killed an excessive amount of Jews. He really beat that thing to the ground. He killed way - just no moderation. Ray Charles, meanwhile, hardly any Jews! He killed so few Jews!"

btilly3• 14 years ago

Yeah, sounds great, but not exactly true.

There are therapists out there who push their clients to blame everything on their marriage and get divorce. Some marriages that were working perfectly well until the poor therapy ended in divorce, to the later regret (at different times) of both members.

So at the moment of divorce there was unhappiness. But what marriage does not have periods of stress? But the marriage itself had been working, and would have likely continued to work were it not for the crappy therapy.

That said, this is an edge case.

Back to the point. CK is wrong in a second surprise. What comes as news in many divorces is that there were problems. People tend not to share what is happening inside of marriages. So the existence of problems is itself news.

philwelch3• 14 years ago

I'm not sure I buy this. First off, why are people going to therapy unless something is wrong? Secondly, once this person goes to therapy and ends up asking for a divorce, what makes the other person such a reliable source on whether things were going well?

milesf• 14 years ago

I sought council from a professional years ago for something I was going through. Their advice was to leave my wife and two kids. I got out of there office. Fast.

I got through that valley in my life, and I've been happily married over 12 years.

There are some people in this world you simply must avoid. There is also advice out there that's pure poison. I don't think taking marriage advice from a cynical, divorced comedian is a great idea.

jdietrich• 14 years ago

Bullshit. I personally know of at least two marriages that ended in divorce for reasons entirely unrelated to the quality of the relationship - one or both parties had a mid-life crisis, tried to reinvent themselves to assuage their existential angst, divorced, utterly alienated their partner in the process and ended up bitterly regretting it. Deciding to divorce doesn't mean that your marriage is bad, it just means that you've decided to divorce.

It's an idea that betrays a profoundly defective concept of marriage - that a lifelong relationship should seem easy and natural and that if it's not so perfect that you're absolutely certain that it's the best possible relationship you could ever have, the solution is to end it and start from scratch with someone else. It's a rejection of the idea that living with anyone is inherently difficult and requires a great deal of hard work, that people get cold feet and seven year itches, that people take things for granted, that the grass always seems greener. If divorce were genuinely a good thing, we'd expect post baby-boom generations with high divorce rates to be much happier and more satisfied with their relationships than their parents and grandparents; Instead, the opposite is true.

icebraining2• 14 years ago

f divorce were genuinely a good thing, we'd expect post baby-boom generations with high divorce rates to be much happier and more satisfied with their relationships than their parents and grandparents

Only if nothing except divorce had changed. For example, it could be that people nowadays have greater expectations for their marriages.

toyg• 14 years ago

> we'd expect post baby-boom generations with high divorce rates to be much happier and more satisfied with their relationships than their parents and grandparents; Instead, the opposite is true.

Sorry, but this is just a delusion. The "rate of happiness" in relationships was simply not measured until the sexual revolution of the '60s/'70s: because of asymmetry in roles, married women were just not allowed to have an opinion on the matter.

Also, there was very little acceptance for the possibility of unhappiness: if you were correctly following all social and religious mores, "of course" you were happy. Being unhappy was a weakness which could not be displayed nor tolerated.

Things change for a reason. Idyllic Arcadian scenarios are always, invariably, delusions concocted by incomplete information.

fmoralesc• 14 years ago

> ...divorced, utterly alienated their partner in the process...

You mean this had nothing to do with the quality of their relationship? Otherwise, I agree with you.

davidu• 14 years ago

Your first paragraph might have changed my life.

randomdata3• 14 years ago

one or both parties had a mid-life crisis, tried to reinvent themselves to assuage their existential angst, divorced, utterly alienated their partner in the process and ended up bitterly regretting it.

I seem to recall a study that showed many partners were much happier with each other after the pressures of marriage were removed from their relationship. I think there is a strong argument to be made that the actions and later regret of those people you refer to is a direct result of having no "escape hatch" in marriage. Destroying everything you have is often the only way out, even if it would have been prudent for the couple to just end the marriage and keep the relationship. But that brings us back to the parent's point: Who ends a marriage to increase the happiness of the relationship? Nobody. Divorce implies an end.

bruceboughton• 14 years ago

As a non-American who has not seen Louis CK's show, I cannot see why he is so often quoted around here. If this is an example of his jokes, then they do not reveal any great philosophical thinking.

dagw• 14 years ago

A lot of humor is very regional and cultural. While he does have a few bits i really enjoy, on the whole I don't really get why Louis CK is considered so great. But I simply put it down to not living in the US. I'm sure there are French or Polish or Japanese comedians whom are incredibly popular at home, but would completely fail to find an audience in the US for much the same reason.

philwelch3• 14 years ago

Can you name any comedians who do express great philosophical thinking?

Besides, it's a performance art--just reading the jokes written down is never going to be as funny.

hawkal• 14 years ago

He's not that great. Just very bitter and angry, so we love him.

mduerksen• 14 years ago

This, if meant to be serious, reveals a very (wrong) fatalistic concept of marriage.

The state of a marriage is not set in stone. It is absolutely possible (and happens all the time) that a great marriage falls apart because one or both partners gradually stop giving attention to each other. The opposite may also be the case. A marriage that started off badly or took a big hit still can be amended.

It just doesn't happen automatically.

Marriage is mainly what both partners[1] make of it, und requires constant work and care. Of all the divorces I have seen in my environment, there was always at least one partner who wasn't willing to give his share of commitment.

Quote I heard somewhere:

After 65 years of marriage, an old couple was asked how they managed to stay together for so long. The woman thought for a few seconds, and then replied: "You know, we were born in a time where people used to repair things instead of throwing them away."

[1] This admittedly does mean that the fate of the marriage doesn't lie completely in the hands of one individual. You can't single-handedly make your marriage a good one. So maybe thats even the singlemost important trait to look for in a potential partner: Check for the ability to cooperate.

mcav2• 14 years ago

Christ, commenters, lighten up. Not every emotional blog post is a heartless grab for attention. If you don't like it, just ignore it and go do something else. Don't punch the guy just for the hell of it.

pyrotechnick2• 14 years ago

"christ"..."hell"

Consider taking your own advice.

mcav2• 14 years ago

Cursing is not the same as a personal attack.

irahul2• 14 years ago

> Christ, commenters, lighten up. Not every emotional blog post is a heartless grab for attention. If you don't like it, just ignore it and go do something else. Don't punch the guy just for the hell of it.

Is this a preemptive strike? I don't see anyone punching the guy.

pdeuchler• 14 years ago

Thank you so much for posting this Alex.

I'm young enough for marriage to seem distant, and my parents are still married, yet more than half of the children I grew up with had divorced parents and I have several separated family members.

It's not uncommon for most of the families on a suburb block to be divorced, especially in certain areas (most of my affluent white friends had antagonistically divorced parents, mainly due to money)[1]. The U.S. still has a large problem with divorce (~50%), and especially with divorce among families with children.

Divorce is far too often considered "taboo", as stated in this article, which is quite a travesty because I've found discussion can provide great benefit to not only those already affected by it, but those contemplating long term relationships. We consider divorce a "failure" in modern society, and in my opinion that's very often not the case. Many times divorce can mean simply a resolution of irreconcilable differences. However the law, lack of openness and general societal pressure can turn even amicable splits ugly.

In the end I've found closure like the OP describes always the most helpful: realization that life continues to go on, and even things that you relate with the old relationship (in this case, technology) will still be there as they always were.

[1] I feel it's important to note that divorce rates are highly variable dependent upon ethnic groups and demographics

kamaal4• 14 years ago

Just curious to know, as somebody from India. What are leading causes for divorce in the US? I used to hear that, alimony is one reason why many women would get married to somebody rich and then divorce them.

I can understand that divorces happen due to incompatibility reasons. But 50% is too high a number for that reason alone.

Also I've heard marriage rates itself in the west are quite low. Never understood the logic behind that.

dutchbrit• 14 years ago

People are becoming more materialistic and don't respect each other as much nowadays. Getting divorced is my biggest nightmare, and I'm not even married yet (nor engaged). While this fear won't stop me, I just hope that I'll stay happily with the one I love until I pass away eventually.

irahul2• 14 years ago

> Just curious to know, as somebody from India. What are leading causes for divorce in the US?

Divorce is a taboo in India. The blog post says it's taboo to talk about in US as well, but it's totally different from not even considering divorce as an option. People endure bad relationships as divorce isn't something on the table for most. Despite all the development, women still aren't empowered enough. Women who are at the receiving ends of an abusive relationship will have to muster a lot of courage to even think about divorce, and then life after divorce will be difficult for them everywhere except for reverse metropolitan ghettos.

As another commenter pointed out, no good marriage ever ended in a divorce(Louis CK).

Gold diggers(I would guess they constitute a very small %; people who attract gold diggers generally do pre-nups), ugly child custody and alimony battles, and high divorce rates are the price of empowerment. Just like people drawing Barack Obama with ape like features is the price of democracy and freedom.

Vivtek• 14 years ago

If you ask me (married 23 years), it's because people get married for the wrong reasons. They get married because society expects them to get married, nobody tells them that spending a lot of time with another human being is really, really hard (in this modern world where both partners are equal partners with full rights), and when - not if - things go wrong, they think "the marriage" is falling apart. So it does.

My wife and I got married after 6 weeks of acquaintance, in order to get visas that would allow us to live in the same country so we could get to know each other better. The deal was, if it didn't work, it didn't work, and we'd go our separate ways.

But once you've made that commitment, and you realize this person is really somebody you like, a lot, and you'd have to research international law to figure out a divorce, then ... well, you learn to work through the most unbelievable and outrageous problems.

We have had very, very bad times. And we've had a lot of pretty damn good times. Every year, we don't get divorced.

There's nothing magical about marriage. There's most definitely nothing magical about love. You can love somebody passionately and that has nothing at all to do with marriage. Confusing these things is why people hurt themselves so often.

apgwoz2• 14 years ago

I believe infidelity is the leading cause of divorce in the US. I'm sure the typical money problems also rank high.

darklajid3• 14 years ago

Disclaimer: Not from the US, but married (~2 years~) and kid (~2 weeks~):

I don't like marriage, as an institution. I'm married, because I'm quite certain that I want to stay with this person, because of tax benefits and a clearly defined situation for offsprings (from 'parental rights' to banal things like 'last name of the little one').

Without that, I couldn't care less about marriage (yes, my wife knows that pov). I'm not religious, so all the reasons for marriage listed there don't apply. Looking at society I think that - depending on the country/region/culture, I guess - marriage lost its meaning.

You might disagree and think that marriage is still an important concept, but in that case I'd argue that divorce shouldn't be ~that easy~. That doesn't mix in my world. The _only_ value of marriage, subjective of course, is the binding vow to stay with someone, period. Reducing that to "Yeah, 'til death or .. something else" is really nonsense, in absolute terms.

I love my wife, but my signature & vow aren't better than a vow I presented her on a random beach in France, with no witnesses.

Ignoring my impression of the value of marriage: Lots of people around me (and my former self certainly as well) seem to be less tolerant. If it's more and more easy to find a new partner (the original article mentions finding people on craigslist..), why would you invest time and energy in this current relationship, that goes through a hard time? The incentive is lowered: You can find people easily (online, offline), society doesn't really care if you were married before in general (certainly not everywhere, but in the western countries I know that's the case) and getting a divorce is ~easy~ (although, potentially nasty/expensive/etc). Why should you work hard to overcome problems in a relationship where a lot of the initial giddy feeling stuff is gone (substituted with something just as good perhaps, if you're happy. But .. in times of crisis you'll probably forget about that)?

Let's get back to the question, shall we? In a word, in my expectation, the reason for a high rate of divorce is:

Lazyness

precisioncoder• 14 years ago

Basically it's a culture shift. It used to be men would have goals and women would support them. Now both partners have goals and they often have to choose between their goals and staying together. It's sad when partners have to split but in order to pursue their dreams it is often necessary. Another cause is simply that people change, it would be sad if we stayed the same, hopefully partners can find a way to grow together but if their growth takes them in different directions they may split. A marriage is a partnership, it would be wonderful if they all could last forever but often they were wonderful, they end, and the fact that they ended does not diminish the good they brought to both partners.

gcv• 14 years ago

Let me ask a related and unpopular question: what purpose does marriage serve in today's world?

For people with religious convictions, I understand: your god(s) hate you if you have relationships not sanctioned by your religious authorities. I am specifically asking about secular people in the US and Europe, who choose to enter a contract with the government about their personal lives.

Is it taxes? It seems much easier to me to just make more money than to make "till death do us part" work.

For health insurance, domestic partnerships work closely enough. (This is a US-specific problem.)

It seems to me that most marriages occur because the wedding industry has done a phenomenal job of marketing itself. Many girls grow up dreaming about their weddings. Men, assuming that women want this, go along. With predictable results in the divorce rate.

Companionship and love have nothing to do with a piece of paper filed with the local government.

kolleykibber• 14 years ago

Advertising and Marketing.

shawn-butler4• 14 years ago

Greed. Americans generally define themselves by those things they perceive they lack (bigger house on the bay, their neighbor's spouse, etc etc).

Then with the rise of feminism, marriage becomes some prison to be escaped with little consequences. Unhappy, divorced parents leads to children disaffected with marriage and the rate falls with each generation.

gooddelta• 14 years ago

The fast-paced tech industry often has this effect on its devotees. People like Alex live their lives at an accelerated rate. They work hard. They make their money at a young age. They compare themselves and their lives to the people around them -- people often twice their age -- and wonder why they don't have what their elders often have: family, children, a sense of self-understanding. Alex is young; 27 years old, if I'm not mistaken. He's done more, created more, and experienced more than most people his age, including having a four-year marriage. Do you remember what four years of anything felt like when you were his age? It's an eternity. His angst at having lost it and, in part, his realization that the life he was constructing for himself was not the life he wanted, is completely justified.

He deserves immense credit for showing this level of transparency. If you haven't taken some lesson away from this post, then you need to re-read it. It's not about empathy; it's about the importance of self-discovery.

saym• 14 years ago

I found myself stopping to digest several phrases. On top of being courageous and open about your experiences, you certainly have a way with words.

Thank you for your honesty. As someone who lacks life experience, I sincerely appreciate your perspective.

SoftwareMaven5• 14 years ago

I spent so much time trying to organize the life that I thought I wanted. It wasn’t the same as living.

Every single time I've tried to push my life in a direction, tried to bend it to my will, it has blown up in my face. So, while I have things I'd like to do and places I'd like to go, I've learned to just let things unfold as they may. I try to influence and guide it, but I don't push it anymore.

I think it comes down to my reaction to the results of trying to push it. When I'm letting it glide, I'm unconcerned about things going in the wrong direction and am happy when they do. If I'm trying to push it, I wind up concerned when things go in the wrong direction and not particularly happy when they do (that was where they were supposed to go, after all).

I learned this lesson at a much older age than I should have.

edwinnathaniel• 14 years ago

That's deep. Really deep.

People learn things when their mind is clear. During my teenage and college years, my mind was convoluted by ideal thoughts and I may have been blinded by those thoughts.

As I get older, I tend to sit back a little bit and observe more than be trigger-happy (in giving advises, in sharing opinions, in giving orders, etc.), I learn a lot more about life by doing this.

aaronblohowiak• 14 years ago

This seems to be similar to the concept of wu wei ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_wei )

fferen• 14 years ago

This is basically how I live my life. Throughout high school and freshman year college (I'm 19) I was always so concerned about things that were utterly unimportant in hindsight, like not offending people, making friends, not being a shut-in (I've always been an introvert). I've found that simply not caring about stuff has made the biggest improvement in my life satisfaction.

For example, I tried to make friends in the first week of college by talking to random people. I joined some clubs and went to events. This completely failed, I didn't click with anyone; these kinds of things didn't fit with my personality. All of my current friends I've met serendipitously. And, because I stopped caring so much about it, I think I have much better social skills now.

Kind of fits with the Daoist philosophy of wu wei: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_wei

EDIT: hah, looks like someone else made the same connection :D

teddyknox• 14 years ago

I think that this passive philosophy is important for finding happiness, but that going against the grain is exactly what it takes to achieve success.

In my mind the hardest part of life is figuring out and prioritizing what I should do. During my freshman year of college (another 19-year-old here) I was very deliberate about taking classes I was interested in, rather than ones that my friends from orientation were taking. As a result I learned a ton of great stuff, I had an awesome schedule, and I met kids I wouldn't have met from just staying within my comfort zone. At the same time, I missed out on valuable chances to get to know other kids that were in the same boat as me: fledgling freshman looking for a friend group. I think if I had gone with the flow in this situation I would have been much happier that first semester. I would've been taking easier classes, getting more sleep and exercise, and hanging out with soon-to-become lifetime friends. That's what I've been trying out this semester, and it's turned out that I'm much happier for it. But is this a road I want to keep going down?

In tasting the happiness of wu wei and satisfaction of focused drive, I've realized the dilemma that I've always been in. As a social yet ambitious individual the hardest part of my life has been finding balance.

gfunk911• 14 years ago

I don't think that "not caring about stuff" and "relying on serendipity" necessarily go together.

Not caring about stuff that doesn't matter and being good at things go hand in hand.

theorique• 14 years ago

I'm a fan of this book ... partly because of the philosophy and partly because of the profanity: thefuckitlife.com

(no commercial interest)

siculars• 14 years ago

Man plans and God laughs.

noonespecial• 14 years ago

To this I might add my own minim of insight:

Don't try to like the things you think you ought to like, just let yourself like the things you do like.

It seems simple enough, but I found it quite difficult to actually do. If you succeed though, it not only makes you happier, it also seems to inoculate you against pretentiousness.

lmm• 14 years ago

I don't know. It took me a lot of time to gain any kind of appreciation for classic literature; I would often at least publicly claim that it was all a nexus of empty pretension. But I kept at it, motivated mostly by guilt, and I've developed an appreciation that means I can enjoy things that more people can talk about (compared to the sci-fi I've always read), and that makes me feel better about myself. Whether I'm actually better off is of course an open question.

Editing your own reward matrix should certainly be approached with extreme caution, but I see no reason to rule it out altogether.

oz• 14 years ago

I don't know. We all have outcomes we prefer. Shouldn't we take rational actions to create those outcomes? Sure, "life is what happens while you're busy making plans," but some people do accomplish what they set out to do. I want to join their ranks.

On a day-to-day basis, what's the difference between "influencing and guiding it" vs. "pushing it"? No snark, just trying to understand your POV a bit better.

kamaal4• 14 years ago

>>"life is what happens while you're busy making plans,"

Yes life is what happens when you get too busy making just plans. A plan is where you want to be, but to get there your plan needs action items when when executed one at a time or in iterations will get you there.

Basically you need to do work to make it happen.

paganel• 14 years ago

> On a day-to-day basis, what's the difference between "influencing and guiding it" vs. "pushing it"?

I'm not the parent of this thread, but I'll try to give my side of the story. The thing is that you cannot control absolutely everything. When you think you have it all, there's suddenly divorce/nasty break-up (as it also happened to me), disease, loss of loved ones, a once in a century economic crisis while you're stuck somewhere in the middle of no-where etc.

I'm not arguing for fatalism :), on the contrary, but I think that if one has this on the back of his/her mind (s)he'll be a stronger person.

hilko4• 14 years ago

I'd say it's all about focusing on principles over rules, or at least being aware that the rules you apply are based on underlying principles. We tend to focus on rules, and apply those in both big and small decisions. Trying to be aware of what's behind those rules can make it easier to deviate, to improvise. Sometimes you still 'push it', but you're often more likely to realize that this thing you're 'pushing for' is a rule, not a principle, and that there are other ways to achieve the goal without blindly staring at one outcome.

I could give 'day-to-day' examples, but maybe that's not even necessary.

SoftwareMaven5• 14 years ago

It's all mindset. Say AI has really struck my fancy. It's a fascinating space with a lot of interesting work going on. Let's compare forcing it and guiding it:

Forcing it: I learn everything I can about AI. I attend meetups, conferences, whatever. I begin obsessing about how little progress I'm making towards my goal. Eventually, I either give up in frustration, or I take a sub-optimal leap in that direction just so I can make some progress.

It is the frustration and the sub-optimal leaps that cause the problems. The frustration leads to self-loathing and depression; the suboptimal leaps result in me being somewhere that, ultimately, doesn't lead where I want, leading me back to frustration.

Guiding it, on the other hand, starts similarly: I learn everything I can about AI. I attend meetups, conferences, whatever. What changes is the obsessing part. Now I'm trying to enjoy the experience, the knowledge and the people. Eventually, I find that it's not what I thought it was or a place where I fit opens naturally. If its the former, there's no frustration; if its the latter, huzzah.

I don't want to sound like I have some zen capability or anything (trust me, I'm far from that!). I have to remind myself very regularly the pitfalls of pushing things because I'm a very impatient person. I also have struggled with depression, so I also have to continually remind myself that, even if I feel like I'm not making progress, I am and that the alternative, feeling like I'm making progress when I'm not really, is far worse.

sown• 14 years ago

So what happens when I let it go to the other direction too much?

It seems like I can't do anything and make anything in my life happen. When I get home from work all I can do is sleep or lie down. I'm positively bored most of the time but don't know how to fix it.

hilko4• 14 years ago

Since I don't know your situation, I obviously cannot give proper informed advice. But one option is to quit and/or to move.

I've felt depressed (distinct from episodes of 'proper' depression) very often in my life. It often too much longer to get out of this because I was looking for a fix, while the fix often resulted from just doing something different, sometimes even seemingly stupid. But it always worked. Breaking patterns.

SoftwareMaven5• 14 years ago

I'm not a doctor, but I've dealt with these before. You may be burned out, depressed, or both. While taking a good break and changing up your life can help if your burned out, it will often just mask depression.

I would encourage you to talk to a doctor and find a good psychologist who understands cognitive based therapies. The best responses to depression include both pharmacological and brain hacking (which is what CBT is). They can help you understand if you are burned out, depressed or both.

I wish you well. It's a hard spot to be in, but one you can get out of. Feel free to email me (in my profile) if I can answer any questions (or do much of anything else) for you.

andyjsong• 14 years ago

The unaimed arrow never misses.

kamaal4• 14 years ago

The only problem is you shouldn't complain of the target it hits when it does.

younata• 14 years ago

I disagree. For most people, it's fine and all to just go with the flow. Not me. I have an affliction that, statistically, I commit suicide if I try to go with the flow.

I got damn close, too. It would've been really easy to go through with it. I didn't go through with it, and I got help. I'm now actively making my life better each day. I am pursuing the direction I want to go in life, and I am happier than I've ever been. Have I had setbacks? Of course, I can't predict everything. Doesn't mean I'm going to abandon this. I know that this is the right direction for me, but it's not the default direction.

bobz• 14 years ago

I agree with you, but I also agree with the original sentiment.

I think the difference is, he is talking about, in the past, forcing the external circumstances of his life to conform to some ideal, where as now, he accepts that this isn't possible.

You, on the other hand, are talking about fighting your own internal battle to make yourself the best you can be. Your battle does sound exceptionally difficult, but we all fight that one.

I think maybe the point that I take away from all of this is, you can't always change the world. But (with a lot of hard work) you can change how you react to it. And that's the more important battle than any external circumstance anyway.

SoftwareMaven5• 14 years ago

Going with the flow doesn't mean not trying to improve myself. I think it's more about not getting my identity wrapped up in what I'm trying to do to the point that, if I don't succeed, all I can conclude is that I am a failure.

It certainly doesn't mean I don't have dreams, aspirations and goals. It doesn't mean that I didn't spend most of the day yesterday working on a side project that I hope to bootstrap. It just means that I won't pursue that bootstrapping in a way that, ultimately, is damaging to myself and my relationships with others.

It is complicated and not at all easy to write out.

o1iver• 14 years ago

I am not exactly sure what kind of pushes you gave, but I do believe, that one should not just go with the flow. Going against the flow is what shapes you as a human being. If in doubt choose the harder option. The hard times have shaped me more as a human than the easy times.

Also a certain amount of contrast is good in life. Just going with the flow seems to dull life, removing inner conflict, conflict with others, pain, excitement...

hilko4• 14 years ago

I'm actually not sure that's true. For me going with the flow does dull life, but it increases inner conflict and pain. Because the 'flow' is often much more based on perceived rules and on social or societal pressure.

I think 'going with the flow' can go further than just on a life scale. In my case it means making decisions that often shake things up and seem a bit silly and counter-productive. I make these decisions because usually they work out and at least keep things interesting. But within these paths of conflict/difficulty I go with the flow. Not necessarily as an all-encompassing approach to life.

SoftwareMaven5• 14 years ago

I agree that it is possible to get too passive, and I wouldn't advocate that. I guess it's a matter of learning what to push and what expectations to have. Honestly, what I do is rarely that different between pushing it and not pushing it. The primary difference is how I react to it.

I still hope I can get my side project to a reasonable level of completeness and people will have some interest in it. It's just that, now, my identity isn't tied up in it.

And maybe that's what it comes down to: is my identity tied up in what I'm trying to accomplish? Because if it is, and I fail, that makes me a failure.

beaker52• 14 years ago

I too have found great satisfaction with being content with things the way which they are.

I use a train of thought along the lines of: All of my suffering comes from a desire to be somewhere I'm not.

Consider a captive. Imagine the isolation and abuse that goes along with a typical scenario of being held captive. Much like an animal put into captivity, if the captive accepts his/her life situation (of being in captivity, abuse and all) he/she does not suffer from it, it is simply his/her way of life.

Whether I like it or not, I'm a captive of life. That's not to say I shouldn't or can't influence it, of course I can, but I cannot make it what it is not. I can guide my life where I think it needs to go but I should have no expectations and welcome whatever I find, oasis and monsters alike, with a smile, curiosity and affection. It lets me be content, whatever the weather.

hilko4• 14 years ago

This issue has been on my mind quite a bit recently. There's significant parts of my life that are not going great, but I have nobody to blame for that other than myself, and with some willpower those areas will improve.

Other than that, though, my life seems like a ridiculous streak of luck. I could go into detail, but suffice to say that serendipity is a running theme.

Now of course part of it is coming from a (relatively) stable family, being white and educated. I am aware of that.

But compared to others just like me, on paper anyways, I still have a ridiculously good life.

I truly believe a lot of that has to do with expectations, and the perspective you choose to have. I don't think it has much to do with personality. By nature I worry a lot, and I tend to be depressed and pessimistic.

For me, it's the difference between reacting and responding. When I 'react', it is a passive/automatic action following some event, some intrusion, something unexpected. I was not prepared for this event, so my reaction is often not optimal, in hindsight.

When I respond, the actual responds might be equally 'automatic', but it is based on a more generic kind of preparation, and leads to better results. In hindsight, it seems like I knew what was going to happen.

I have, through circumstance, spent most of my life with a lot of uncertainty, so I naturally developed skills that allow me to 'respond'. And as a result, many good things came about because I 'responded' correctly, based on some trained principle or perspective. And many bad things didn't impact me as much, because I feel like most of my life is improvisation anyways.

enraged_camel• 14 years ago

It's funny you call it a "lesson" because I learned the exact opposite "lesson."

It came to me several years ago when I was visiting an aquarium in Hawaii, out of all places. One of the videos they were showing explained the life that plankton live. These are micro-organisms that literally drift in the ocean and go wherever the currents take them. And in the end, most are eaten by a larger organism. One might argue that this is a fine way for a plankton to live, because their "purpose" in life is to end up as food for something else.

And many humans live their lives as plankton. Why? The simplest and most realistic answer is that it's the path of least resistance. It's much easier to drift in life and go wherever the currents take you, than to try to swim and go where you actually want to go. But to say (or, in the article's case, imply) that this is the right "lesson" is a bit annoying.

After that aquarium visit, I had about a week to think things true. And I realized that I had lived my life as a plankton up until then, and it had not resulted in much happiness. I was always reacting what was happening to me, and letting people push me around much like ocean currents push plankton around. In the end, I decided that I would rather be a shark. And that's when my life started to change for the better in almost every way.

Imagenuity• 14 years ago

Living your life as plankton is the same thing as never going outside your comfort zone. And while a minuscule few have great things fall into their lap, most of us have to push outside the comfort zone to find anything meaningful and worthwhile in life.

cgislason• 14 years ago

I personally find it useful to have a plankton mode and a shark mode, switching between them as necessary. Drifting is useful at times, but you definitely miss out on many of the best parts of life if you don't push yourself.

javajosh• 14 years ago

The point that the OP seems to understand, but doesn't explicitly state, is that no life situation, however apparently solid, lasts forever. The first section has a distinct tone of numbed acceptance, the voice of someone who has just experienced absolute horror, and who's view of the world is far more balanced than an ordinary persons. Most of us live under the delusion that we are safe, that our situation is safe, and that tomorrow will be better. This is comforting, and probably useful as a coping mechanism. But it's not true. No matter how healthy you are, you could get sick. No matter how solid your job, you could lose it. No matter how much you love your wife or you think she loves you, she could have an affair and ask for a divorce.

When pain stacks upon pain stacks upon pain until you can't take it and then it keeps going even more for an unimaginable time, something burns away in you, leaving you a kind of stark clarity about the world and yourself. It is a realistic view, but not a happy one. I believe they call it 'shock'.

What we conventionally call 'happy' is actually a pleasant delusion. (Luckily?) this delusion is quite resilient! It seeps back into us, and we start to believe, once again, that everything is actually going to be okay this time around.

You wouldn't think it, but I think it's easier if you don't suffer this sort of torment alone. Consider the life-bending events of 9/11. Overall, I'd say that New Yorkers recovered emotionally really, really fast, mainly because everyone felt that horror and shock. But personal tragedy like this is tough because our culture tolerates friendship that doesn't tolerate "general unpleasantness". Anyone going through this will be a wreck, that's a given. But so often friends will turn their back, unable or unwilling to endure the unpleasant inconvenience of a friend in dire need. This is, of course, inhuman.

So yes, kudos for a well-written piece, and may you find happiness once again (you will).

sakopov• 14 years ago

This June i jokingly told my fiance "I wish you a great husband" on her birthday. She laughed. I laughed. 2 months later and 1 month before our wedding we separated in the most disgusting, disturbing way possible. The joke was also on me. I was alone and devastated. Then suicidal. Then just hopeless and completely alone. I'm not sure i know how to cope with this. Life as a gigantic lesson, never meant to be completely understood. You have to accept, reflect, move on and hope for the best. I think you've managed to fight at least half of the battle. Very interesting read. I wish you the best. I think you're almost there!

gruseom• 14 years ago

That's pretty recent and sounds like it's still raw. So for what it's worth I wish you the best in getting through it. As a wise man once said, first the shocking truth, then the healing truth.

flog• 14 years ago

My experience was close to that. A year and a half on I still sometimes wake up from nightmares about it. But it gets better. My initial response was deeply rational, like me personality type, and I tried to analyse every little thing. The truth, I think, is that in the end, the universe is ambivalent. Life goes on. I have a post it note on my wall which I refer to often: "#1 man rule: I'll be fine". Men need to remember we're men, and we'll be fine. We are tough.

toomuchtodo• 14 years ago

I needed reminding of this, hence the tattoo I got: This Too Shall Pass.

cowpewter• 14 years ago

Sounds like a human rule, not just a man rule. Everything always works out. Not necessarily how you'd expect but it does.

cageface• 14 years ago

The bright side of course is that the world is open right now in a way it's never been before. I've spent the last two years bouncing around the globe, mostly in SE Asia. Thanks to the internet and a remotable skillset I can land in a new city tomorrow and have income and probably new contacts willing to show me around town.

This kind of thing is always traumatic but it's a great time to be a hacker with no ties.

datalus• 14 years ago

Probably one of the most human pieces on HN. The comments so far are enlightening.

pizza• 14 years ago

Busy, busy, busy, is what we Bokononists whisper whenever we think of how complicated and unpredictable the machinery of life really is.

erickhill• 14 years ago

Having lived through a similar experience as Al3x, my biggest take-aways after the fact were:

- If she/he finds enjoyment from it [pick anything] then encourage it. Don't find a fault in it and be an ass.

- Comments and attitudes over time do matter. Don't be condescending. You're not "all that." You may think you are, but you're not.

- Everyone has dreams. They may not align with yours. That's OK, if you aren't narcissistic and an egoist. Look in the mirror from time to time.

Everyone wants to be loved. Everyone wants to be appreciated. All work is honorable.

benjaminwootton• 14 years ago

This is just common sense and decency - you should behave like this to everyone, least of all your significant other.

Anyone who doesn't have this level of emotional maturity isn't ready to get married!

sneak• 14 years ago

I had the good fortune to meet Al3x this year while he was traveling, before this article was published in The Magazine. I heard most of this story over drinks in Berlin.

Had I heard the same kind of story from just about anyone else, I think it would have been pretty uneventful, but to sit across from someone so undeterred by some of life's largest challenges was pretty moving. I imagine the sort of outward displays of not-really-togetherness I'd probably display under similar circumstances, and Al3x's matter-of-fact and direct way of dealing with it was pretty inspirational. It totally comes through in this piece, too.

What a guy.

perfunctory• 14 years ago

> Maybe technology made it all too easy to slide into a life I wasn’t meant to have. It would be so convenient to think that way. Marriage didn’t work out? Blame the dating site.

Some people probably do believe that a dating site is the one to blame. Sad.

pyrotechnick2• 14 years ago

Alex,

Thank you so very much for sharing your story. This degree of honesty is far too rare and is absolutely commendable. More appropriately, your story resonates in strong sympathy with mine.

"I owe my life to technology."

Those who've never uttered this are simply unable to grasp the extensive implications of such a notion. Even in those who don't openly admit it, it eventually manifests itself; often in bizarre ways. A friend of mine has the "transistor" symbol tattooed across his forearm; another wears small electrical components as jewellery. Neither are able to readily admit just how much technology has effected their lives; particularly to their partners. This failure of honesty was the downfall of my most cherished relationship, and many since. And I fear, many hereafter.

"I tried to imagine what my life would be like in the wake of all this if I had been living two hundred years ago. Most likely, I would be trapped. I would be living in the scraps of the life that had unraveled around me. I could not seek the support of friends from around the world at any time of day or night. I could not book passage to wherever I felt I needed to escape to. I couldn’t work from wherever I happen to end up. Trapped."

The truth is: our fixation on all things technological is merely a symptom of what's otherwise a distinct disease. We yearn for a life less ordain, less automated and yet it's these very concepts we attempt to employ in our escape. We've been sold a lie. In the past, escaping to seek counsel was much easier. There were entire unchartered continents boasting unique foreigners with novel, enlightening perspectives. Sure, technology has made these endeavours vastly more efficient, in terms of both time and work. But at what cost? It is my observation that in our advancements, we dilute our power to transmute our problems into solutions. Meanwhile, technology has not universally transformed the degree to which all members of our species cooperate. The shifting all of our burdens onto what we believe will save us, in this case technology, has been incredibly disempowering for us all. The problem has never been in our technology, or lack thereof; it was, and always will be, in us.

"It is now nearing mid-November and, despite a hurricane and a freak snowstorm and the general insanity that is this place, I’m still here."

That you are. If ever your answer to the question "Am I alive?" is "Yes", then your purpose here on this planet has most certainly not yet been realised.

You are going to make it.

Eyes open. No fear.

diminish• 14 years ago

can we hack divorce, hack life, hack being alone?

liberatus• 14 years ago

"It is taking time to make things whole again..."

Try saying: 'It is taking time to make things "feel" whole again.'

I know it's a small difference, but it provides (imho) a more accurate perspective. Perspective is a lot, if not everything.

Point is, you're already whole, but it takes time to feel it.

unoti• 14 years ago

A while back I moved, and my Mom asked me if I felt at home yet. I told her, "I felt at home the moment I plugged in the first ethernet cable."

kafkaesque• 14 years ago

I can relate. When this happened in my life, I listened to Dave Mason's "Look at You, Look at Me" a lot, which is, interestingly enough, from the album Alone Together.

_debug_2• 14 years ago

> I packed up what was left, put all but necessities into storage. Sold my car.

(Not directly related to the article, but) : In the West, is it always the husband that has to leave the house? I once saw a movie in which the husband comes home and discovers that he being offered a divorce, and the wife says, "Leave my home". She was a stay-at-home wife, and he was working. I found it odd that she refers to it "my home" rather than "our home" or "the home" or "I think it is better if we both live apart", which is more civil.

If so, it's a cultural dictum, rather than a legal one, right?

(I am from India and I don't know many divorced people).

JohnBooty• 14 years ago

It's not a norm, exactly.

If you own the house together, you can't force the other person to leave (unless it's a matter of safety and you involve the police.)

As long as things aren't TOO nasty, couples usually figure something out so that nobody goes homeless. If your wife was a stay-at-home wife with no income, and no place to go, you might let her stay in the house.

jacalata2• 14 years ago

He says near the beginning that they were planning to move and the house was already on the market - both of them had to leave the house. It is not always true that the husband has to leave the house.

  1. sometimes only one partner could afford the house on their own. It 
  makes sense for them to be the one that stays.
  2. if there are children, then where possible it can make life easier on 
  them if the parent who gets custody stays in the house 
  so the children don't have to move. This is more frequently the mother.
  3. if the divorce is seen as one person's "fault" then they are expected 
  to take on most of the inconvenience, which includes moving out.
  4. depending on your state and any pre-nuptial agreements and niche 
  circumstances like living in a house owned by the parents of one person, 
  sometimes the house straight up belongs to one member of the couple and
  they get to stay there.

/edit formatting wtf?

_debug_2• 14 years ago

Thanks! I guess what applies to the situation in the movie is point 2, about the children.

anothermachine5• 14 years ago

It goes either way, depending on circumstances. For example, if someone has a new lover, the adulterer usually moves out.

It's actually rare for someone to evict the other, since it's entirely illegal and usually undesired by the evictee. If the separation is very much ill-willed, the person who wants the divorce usually leaves (often as a surprise).

shawn-butler4• 14 years ago

There is nothing meaningful or worthwhile in life, just living until you aren't. A lot of comments talk about flow or busyness and there is some truth that we find some happiness in adding to ourselves. That is, in perfecting a skill so that it becomes "second nature." I'm not entirely convinced; it seems like it's just a way to distract your awareness from the reality of your existence.

There is an old Chinese proverb (the beauty of which is probably lost in the butchery of my translation):

"Life is like honey-gathering bees, After collecting all the honey from myriad flowers, They age and their labor leaves them with nothing."

Alone Together, Again

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