An Alternate Universe (Microsoft Surface)

http://www.marco.org/2012/10/26/an-alternate-universe

by tnorthcutt • 14 years ago

242 240 14 years ago

mythz• 14 years ago

This looks just like the Apple Store, but without the customers :)

brackin• 14 years ago

It's true that the Surface is coming in at a 10" form-factor when the iPad holds 70% of the market and the real battle is happening on the 7", slightly lower end market.

evoxed• 14 years ago

I had a bit of a tinfoil hat epiphany just yesterday about this... consider:

-Until now, Apple has been adamant about not releasing a smaller iPad.

-Apple has a ridiculously efficient supply chain which can probably adapt very well, considering the next point...

-Tim Cook just went on record saying that Apple wasn't concerned about product cannibalization.

-The Surface tablet is just about to stick it's foot in the door, well after Apple has established itself at the top.

Aside from the obvious (consumer demand), does anyone else think this might just be one of the most comfortable bets they can make? Put out 7" tablets while they're hot, let people forget about the Surface, by the time Surface 2 goes 7" they can push out a much newer full iPad line...

r00fus• 14 years ago

I honestly think Tim doesn't really see Microsoft as a threat just yet. The iPad mini is a response to low-price disruption from Amazon and Google.

I think Amazon's "$50/year data plan" gives more heartburn to Apple strategists than anything Microsoft has put on the table or even hinted at.

paperwork• 14 years ago

Quite a nice writeup.

It saddens me to see Microsoft disappointing, time after time. There must be great material for anthropologists to figure out how such an incredibly smart and talented group of people, with almost unlimited amount of money, can continue to be second-rate. In fact, comparing the cultures around Linux, MS and Apple is bound to reveal some greater truths about human/societal behavior which could be applied to improving the lot of countries and cultures which have stagnated.

sam17992• 14 years ago

How is the Surface disappointing? Explain please. Surface has by far the better hardware, and Windows 8 has a FAR better UI and UX than iOS. How is the Surface worse than the iPad? It's way ahead.

MBCook• 14 years ago

Most people seem to love the surface hardware, it's Windows RT I've seen most complaints about. Most people also seem to love the touch cover, and had a better experience than Marco.

I read this entire piece as a critique of the MS store. The Surface just happened to be what he tried to see/mess with; an activity that was constantly interrupted by the sales staff.

I went into my local MS store a few weeks ago (pre-surface). While I didn't encounter pushy salesmen, the rest of the experience was similar. The layout and design was a clear copy of Apple. The uniforms and the way they carried their ID on a lanyard was a clear copy. There was an "XBox Experience" section in the back no one was using. The Windows phones were covered in fingerprints, making it hard to see how nice the screens really were.

They're trying, but it was clear to me they needed some time and experience to round some rough edges.

randomchars8• 14 years ago

Better hardware? How is the surface's harware better? Not even if we put aside the shitty screen.

RyJones• 14 years ago

His impression pretty much matches mine, except I'm more enthused by the keyboard covers. I find OSKs intolerable; I agree with his assessment that Office is useless for creation - I will argue that having a full-fidelity viewer is very nice for attachment handling.

hizanberg4• 14 years ago

Seriously? blue uniforms, white name tags, flat display tables, guru bars... It's like they purposely tried to copy every distinguishable Apple retail formula except they're pushing PCs.

Does noone have any creativity left anymore?

firefoxman12• 14 years ago

It's Microsoft. Microsoft has never been about innovation or creativity. I'm not one to bash them, it's just important to look back at their history. Their last innovation was the Start menu.

bbissoon3• 14 years ago

It's not about creativity when you're running a store. It's about finding a method that works and tweaking it to fit your product.

The creativity is in the product and advertising.

firefoxman12• 14 years ago

Unless you want your restaurant to be known as the "best" in town. That requires more than just tweaking.

hizanberg4• 14 years ago

So every other tech retail company that doesn't copy Apple is foolish? If that's the case we're headed towards a bland, uninspiring world.

crabasa• 14 years ago

"Does noone have any creativity left anymore?"

That's a good summation of most comments on HN about Windows 8 and the Surface. It's too bad, because it's exactly the same poor level of discourse that happened when OSX came out and ALL developers were on Windows or Linux.

Of course, when Apple finally releases a unified version of OSX and iOS and releases their convertible device, I'm sure it will be perfect.

hizanberg4• 14 years ago

You don't know Apple if you think they're going to release a convertible device.

Also there were plenty of shopping mall stands selling iPad keyboards months before Surface was announced. Keyboards aren't what makes tablets successful.

andrewfelix• 14 years ago

How surprising, Marco panning Microsoft products.

That store experience does sound awful though. There's nothing more off putting than over eager sales staff interrupting your curiosity.

niels_olson• 14 years ago

I have been to MSFT stores in San Diego and Seattle. They were like that before Surface. I felt dirty, and a little sad for everyone in the store.

jser3• 14 years ago

Visiting their store feels like you've stepped into a Halloween horror movie.

The staff must be forced to take lithium at the start of each shift. At the Microsoft store in Chicago, it's not only empty and in the least 'cool' part of the city (distant suburbs), but the constant demos felt like I was a victim in a Saw movie. I had to enthusiastically play a Kinect game... or else.

robryan• 14 years ago

To be fair, in terms of Microsoft pieces from the big Apple bloggers, this comes off more fair than the stuff Gruber and MG write.

underwater2• 14 years ago

The Apple store do the forced cheering by sales staff. I find that really tacky.

snambi6• 14 years ago

Apple stores so crowded, its hard to get the attention of the sales guys. They are super busy, even on a monday morning. In santa clara, the microsoft store is right in front of apple store. Once I went to apple store on a monday morning, to fix my wife's phone. The apple store was packed at 10.30 AM, I had to wait 2 hours to get it fixed. So, to kill time I went into the microsoft store, which was literally empty. There were more staff than customers. I don't know why microsoft is opening stores.

Jare4• 14 years ago

Overeager and abundant is at least better than useless or nonexistent.

doesnt_know• 14 years ago

That's pretty debatable and I will actually walk out of a store if staff continue to bother me after I have already politely said I do not need help. I have found that this happens all the time in consumer electronic stores. They circle you like vultures and butt in and explain things even after you have said you don't need or want their assistance.

Thank goodness for Internet shopping. Whenever I can I buy online specifically so I don't have to put up with sales people like the ones described in this article.

petercooper• 14 years ago

Oh my.. this cringeworthy exchange reminds me of when Larry David tried selling cars :-) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neqO5y3Xaq8

ericfrenkiel4• 14 years ago

this is such a biased article with strawman arguments ("can you replace the sound card on the surface?") and silly comparisons(the author actually writes he could buy 2 ipad minis for 1 surface).

the criticisms about the store experience and salesmen notwithstanding, this is apple fanboism at its best.

It's far better to keep an open mind and experience new ways of interaction than to deride/scoff at alternative UI and UX.

I switch between Android, Windows, and Mac OSX; it's far more interesting to enjoy more platforms than forgo trying new experiences.

andrewljohnson• 14 years ago

Have you tried a Microsoft Surface? I think he can scoff at the UI since he tried it.

ericfrenkiel4• 14 years ago

Yes, I'm typing on one right now =)

It certainly has some flaws as a first generation product, but on the whole it's a breath of fresh air in the tablet space.

sam17992• 14 years ago

I have tried the Surface, and been using Windows 8 and Windows Phone for over a year. On the other hand Marco tried it for a couple of minutes, and arrived at a hasty conclusion without even giving it a fair try.

It is a completely different approach to iOS and Mac. And it is better. I can safely say Windows 8's Metro UI is miles ahead of Apple's iOS in terms of UI and UX. Metro UI is prettier, easier to use and by far more productive. Apple's iOS looks static, dull, ancient and boring compared to this.

ghshephard6• 14 years ago

The sound card comment was because the salesman was suggesting one advantage being a "PC Guy" was that he could upgrade his sound card. My response, btw, would have been identical to Marco's here.

Jare4• 14 years ago

Arguing quick examples and metaphors has never been useful to anyone except the arguer's ego. The salesdude actually tried to address Marco's underlying question (in what ways can you expand this thing?), even though it was clear Marco was there just for trolling. Surface love or hate nonwithstanding, this is an embarrassing post from start to finish.

joenathan• 14 years ago

Actually with all the USB support the Surface has, you probably can change the sound "card".

http://www.amazon.com/Syba-SD-CM-UAUD-Adapter-C-Media-Chipse...

lalwat• 14 years ago

agreed, Toronto's largest mall (Eaton C) featured the Surface today. It was packed. Everybody was exited and the product looked great.

snambi6• 14 years ago

yes, the farther and farther you travel from silicon valley, microsoft products look more and more appealing. :)

picklefish• 14 years ago

I came here to post this. This article is so grossly biased by someone who made up their mind a long time ago. The writing is so poor and clearly attacks the silliest stuff that is unrelated to the product itself. This person is clearly jealous? of microsoft copying the apple store approach. It's such a weird article to make it to the top of hacker news. I guess that's a late Friday night for you.

ghshephard6• 14 years ago

Biased? It's written by Marco Arment, well known author of Instapaper and now "The Magazine" - recent speaker at Cingleton. Of course he's biased. It's like complaining that Anne Coultier is being conservative.

But, I disagree with you on the writing - he clearly put a lot of work into that essay, and it's less egregious than what I would expect from the other pundits.

jopt5• 14 years ago

> strawman arguments

This is a blog post, not a research paper. That's not a strawman argument, it's a joke.

dmix• 14 years ago

> it wasn’t clear whether there just wasn’t a hidden context menu at that moment or I just screwed up the swipe

This was the hardest thing for me when I was trying out Windows 8. Was never sure the menu didn't exist or my mouse wasn't in the corner properly.

kordless• 14 years ago

After reading maybe 1/4 of this I was left thinking if you can't say something positive, don't say anything at all.

jser3• 14 years ago

Without criticism, nothing will improve.

Magenta3• 14 years ago

Depends on the criticism. Constructive criticism, sure. Blinkered, petty, negative criticism from someone who made up his mind years ago? Not so much.

wvenable• 14 years ago

> People who dislike Apple’s approach or whose requirements are incompatible with it will always exist in great numbers, and the Surface is for them.

I disagree. Historically, Microsoft software products have been more customizable and more flexible than what comes from Apple. PC hardware as well. But what we're seeing now, with Windows 8, is a departure from that. Microsoft isn't just copying Apple's store -- they're copying the fundamental mind-set behind Apple's software. Instead of a general purpose computing machine, they're both trying to sell closed consumer electronics products. In my opinion, Microsoft took their biggest advantage and tossed it. People who dislike Apple's approach or whose requirements are incompatible aren't going to find much of an alternative. Microsoft seems to think they can compete with Apple on Apple's terms.

mandeepj2• 14 years ago

Few weeks ago, there was a news about ballmer praising and hinting at adopting the Apple's approach of integrated hardware and software. Surface is the move in that direction.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/10/us-microsoft-ceo-i...

erickhill• 14 years ago

And thus Android/Chrome may become the new "frankenstein customizable" option, which MS has historically been.

Camillo• 14 years ago

Maybe Android, but I can't see how Chrome could be that. It's a browser that runs web applications. Every other OS has a browser and runs web applications.

6ren2• 14 years ago

True, but maybe the nature of the demand has changed, as computers have matured into consumer devices.

However... if some new way of using computers comes along, it seems more likely to emerge in a more open system (like windows or android or linux) than in a closed one. Or maybe at the level of ARM SoC, with its own hardware.

taylorbuley3• 14 years ago

I've got VMWare Fusion on a Macbook Air so I have the luxury of being able to pick my OS and application for most tasks (usually OS X, sometimes Ubuntu and rarely Windows). I took Windows 8 for a test drive today and I will be happily replacing the native OS X Calendar and Mail with the Windows 8 alternatives.

jser3• 14 years ago

Curious -- why so? Reviews that I read seemed to indicate that the mail application was quite weak (e.g. can't even drag and drop mail into folders).

taylorbuley3• 14 years ago

That's a good point and I could see how it could be troublesome for some. For me, I like the simplified interface. The design is a driving factor for me, rather than features.

josteink• 14 years ago

Mail? Seriously?

I'm using Windows 8 on my (non touchscreen) laptop, for the overall improvements on the platform and I'm very happy about it so far. And it means I have day to day experience using it.

And so far, I think the Mail-app is one of the weakest apps to the point where I wondered if Microsoft is seriously releasing this as their RTM, finalized Mail-client for the masses.

If I may ask: What part about it do you find so faverouble? Is there some hidden gem I have missed?

taylorbuley3• 14 years ago

Noted in a sibling comment, not being able to drag mail is a bummer. And on further exploration I definitely miss being able to search. But selecting it and moving it isn't too bad, and I can use mail.google.com when I need to -- overall I'm not concerned about a lack of features for this desktop client.

My guess would be that they applied the Aol user principle to the mail app and figured you'd use Outlook if you need a more featureful application.

recoiledsnake• 14 years ago

>The Surface is partially for Microsoft’s world of denial: the world in which this store contains no elephants and Microsoft invented the silver store with the glass front and the glowing logo and blue shirts and white lanyards and these table layouts and the modern tablet and its magnetic power cable

Huh what? It looks like Marco's the one living in an alternate universe. I seriously doubt anyone would believe that. The whole "if you don't adore the iPad you're in denial" thing says more about the writer than the Microsoft store salesman. What bugs me the most about the Apple bloggers like Gruber, Siegler and Marco is their hate towards anything non-Apple, especially Android and Microsoft. It's one thing to like something, but to hate on something else because of that is very narrow minded.

msutherl• 14 years ago

They hate it because it sucks. His whole article is about how much and why it sucks.

Then he concludes that maybe it doesn't suck. Maybe it's just him.

It reminds me of Winston Smith, wondering whether it's he that's insane after all.

jbigelow76• 14 years ago

That's kind of a grandiose comparison don't you think? 1984 is a cautionary (prescient?) fable about a totalitarianistic dystopia and the other is a tedious rant about consumer electronics in a shopping mall.

seiji• 14 years ago

It's not about "sucks," it's about the difference between being a market leader and someone trying to emulate a market leader with no understanding of why things are popular.

Touch? Sure, let's do touch, but we won't consider human aspects like the size of on screen elements.

Gestures? Sure, let's make things swipe and tap and zoom. Why? Why not? The other people do it.

Animations? Sure, they are pretty. Let's animate some things. They are optional and meaningless anyway, so we can be sparse and nobody will care. They should be happy we added animations anyway!

Wooden tables with see through table toppers with t-shirted employees? It's just the natural order of things. We aren't copying anybody.

w1ntermute4• 14 years ago

To be honest, it's time to ban Macro's blog from HN. Every time one of his trollbait posts hits the frontpage of this site (and they somehow always do), we have these exact same discussions about how him and Gruber and Siegler are incapable of looking at the technology industry without bias.

skrebbel2• 14 years ago

Wait, ban a site because it's consistently popular on HN? Clearly, many people here agree with him. (I don't, but that's OK)

eridius2• 14 years ago

Trollbait? Writing an article that you personally disagree with is not trollbait, and it's rather ridiculous of you to claim that it is.

S4M• 14 years ago

While I disagree with the option of banning this blog - it's pretty well written - I don't see why it always makes it to the front page. The TL;DR of this article is "Microsoft is blatantly trying to copy Apple but I still don't like Surface". That's his opinion and it's fine, but I don't see what else there is to learn from the post except for the fact that Marco is not going to buy the new Surface.

So I'd be really curious to know what makes people on HN upvote this kind of stories.

rbanffy5• 14 years ago

> we have these exact same discussions about how him and Gruber and Siegler are incapable of looking at the technology industry without bias.

The most vicious discussions come from people who cannot see the tech industry without their own biases opposite to the one in the articles. Should we ban those too?

jkubicek2• 14 years ago

I can't speak for MG, but Gruber and Marco definitely do not automatically dislike anything non-Apple. Read both of their writings on WebOS or Windows Metro UI for a positive spin on non-apple products or their writing on Game Center, Ping, App Store reviews for an anti-Apple slant.

Both men have a strong appreciation for usability, look-and-feel, intuitiveness and consistency in their electronic gadgets. They both get pigeon-holed as Apple apologists because Apple is the only major electronics manufacturer that seems to care one iota about these things, but when another company comes along and gets theses details right, neither Marco or Gruber will hesitate to praise them.

rat87• 14 years ago

Isn't Surface all Metro-y?

smackfu4• 14 years ago

They will both give Apple the benefit of the doubt while not doing the same for others. Apple flaws are unimportant, others flaws are crazy bad.

For instance, Gamecenter is just terrible on iOS. Looks tacky, barely works. How you treat that in a review is very revealing of your partisan positions. You could make it the centerpiece and how it shows that Apple is losing its touch in new features and is on a downward spiral. Or you could just ignore it.

kenjackson3• 14 years ago

I call B.S. on this. Marco and Gruber are effectively Apple shills, but more clever than one like MG.

Gruber and Marco are tactical in their praise of non-MS products. They'll praise something they think has no chance of threatening Apple. Despite Android's flaws, there's also tons of stuff in it worth praising, but you'll rarely (if ever) hear them say a peep about Android.

Likewise, Surface is a LOT more threatening than Windows Phone. They don't view it as a cute toy, but rather a serious threat to the iPad.

Don't you find it the least bit odd that Marco does a story about his experience at the MS store, with pictures of an empty store and never references any of the stories that talked about full stores?

If Marco and Gruber actually like a new Windows device it likely means they don't think it will sell much. If they think it has potential, they'll find a way to bash it.

271828182842• 14 years ago

Of course Apple changed the way in-person selling of computers. If you need evidence of this today, find a Best Buy. That was your option before the Apple Store way of doing it.

The last time I was in an Apple store (more than a year ago) I grabbed what I needed and then a kind woman walked up to me and double-checked that was what the item my MacBook needed. She scanned my card right there and I left knowing my Gmail account had a receipt mailed to it. The whole thing took 5 minutes. And the store was crowded at the time too! It was exactly how I would want a retail experience to be. She double checked, then I paid and left. bam.

Before the Apple Store, where could you go to get EVEN REMOTELY the same experience? Best Buy? Circuit City? Oh no wait, I know, CompUSA! Sure, buddy.

(I know some will try to denounce me as just an Apple fanboy. To that I would point out that for years I exclusively used Linux so I feel fine looking down on both Apple and Microsoft :P That said, it is just that in this instance, Microsoft is clearly playing catch up.)

10098• 14 years ago

I prefer just ordering gadgets on amazon and have them delivered to my doorstep. Beats having to walk to the store :-)

bitcartel2• 14 years ago

I remember buying my first Commodore Amiga. A small, local store, where they let you play around with the machine and showed you games and demos. Friendly, no hard sell, and cash discount.

The guys running the store would give you honest opinions about the software and hardware, they would tell you not to buy something if they figured it wasn't really what you needed.

The Apple Store offers a great retail experience, it's streamlined to process sales quickly, and the staff are friendly, but I don't get the feeling they really care about what they're selling.

beloch• 14 years ago

Actually, back in the 90's, when PC margins were much higher, there were a plethora of small boutique PC builders out there. Many of them were far nicer than the Apple stores of today. Since they could turn a profit in the kilobucks on a good sale they tended to go to greater lengths to woo customers. Nice decor, not cold-looking ikea cast-offs. Free coffee and snacks. Aeron chairs in front of high-end demo rigs loaded with the latest software, whether it was AutoCAD or Half Life. The salespeople at these places tended to be genuine computer geeks who would enthusiastically gush about anything you asked them rather than bored kids who you can see going through the Apple protocol binder in their heads after every question you ask them. Most systems coming out of places like this were custom, right down to the installed applications.

Of course, PC margins gradually shrank until they basically became commodity items. Assembling PC's gradually got easier too. e.g. When was the last time you had to set IRQ/DMA channels via dip switches or had to worry about which side of that ribbon cable goes to pin 0? Assembling a PC today is practically impossible to mess up, so a lot more people do it themselves. As nice as many of these boutiques were and despite the care that many of them put into their work, their business model simply became unsustainable. Note that Apple's computers were also sold in some boutique stores at one point, although in the 90's stores specializing in Apple products were already not doing well because Apple of the 90's was decidedly unsexy. (The stores of the 90's specializing in Apple products that I can remember were all decidedly dingy actually...)

Please do not say that Apple "changed the way" computers are sold in person. They didn't. They leveraged their higher profit-margins to build stores similar to those that their own hardware had been sold in barely a decade earlier. This let them cut out retailers, increase vertical integration, and maximize profits. There is nothing new about Apple stores except scale and profitability in an era of commodity pricing. Don't get me wrong, that's admirable, but from a business stand-point, not from a user-experience stand-point.

LVB• 14 years ago

The whole thing is starting to remind me a lot of conservative talk radio/TV. The clique of Apple tech pundit A-listers reliably delivers a predictable message to willing listeners/readers. They are not in general good tech reviewers IMHO, and they fill the gap with an exceedingly arrogant and condescending tone. But, like conservative broadcasters, they probably are making a lot of money doing their quasi-tech-related button pushing.

It is a bit annoying to see apparently sharp people looking so often brainwashed, but I more or less ignore it at this point.

GuiA• 14 years ago

Non-apple partisans see their counterparts as brainwashed idiots incapable of thinking beyond what a single company offers in a sleek packaging; and those in favor of Apple see the critics as tasteless individuals with no sense of design, and who just don't get what it means to build hardware purely for the end user.

I doubt there's any way out of this :)

nivla• 14 years ago

Yes the whole article reeked of fanboyism at its peek. Why do we have to compare everything to Apple? Maybe I prefer USB ports and SD Slots over the unnoticeable weight and the retina display or maybe it is because I can finish up my office documents on the go. Just because it is not useful to you does not mean it won't be useful to anyone.

Glad it doesn't happen with other things in real life, glad people have different tastes and preferences, else we will be living in a world with only one brand of car, one brand of clothing, one brand of ...

ghshephard6• 14 years ago

"Why do we have to compare everything to Apple?" - Because Marco is an Apple pundit? Because he makes his living creating and selling IOS software and services? I would think, by now, anybody on HN would know what what type of slant they would be getting on theloop, marco.org, parislemon, and daringfireball.

octotoad2• 14 years ago

He may be a fanboy, but in this case it makes perfect sense to compare something like the Surface tablet to similar Apple products. Yes, there are other tablet computers out there, and yes, tablets did exist before the iPad, but Apple's offering has become the mainstream benchmark for tablet computers, whether you like Apple or not.

eridius2• 14 years ago

Why do we have to compare everything to Apple? We don't. But it makes perfect sense to compare both the Surface tablet and Microsoft stores in general to Apple, as they are very explicitly trying to compete with Apple's dominance. Microsoft stores are even designed to resemble Apple stores, down to the employee uniforms, in a desperate attempt at cargo cult retailing. And given the success of the iPad, any tablet device made today is going to get compared to it.

corporalagumbo11• 14 years ago

Why? Well how about because everything Microsoft is doing reeks of the comparison? It's Microsoft who stamps their jealousy all over themselves, not bloggers.

Plus, to compare the differences between Microsoft and Apple to rival car or clothing companies is just wilfully disingenuous. In consumer tech, they are the giants, and they are not even close to the parity in products or corporate culture that typify the markets you've chosen. Consumer tech is not a mature market. And the differences between Microsoft and Apple are glaring.

ghshephard6• 14 years ago

Gruber Loves the Nokia Lumia. He's written quite a bit about how he appreciates its style. He's also quite intrigued by the metro style elements of Windows Phone 7.

JuDue3• 14 years ago

Agreed

jopt5• 14 years ago

> if you don't adore the iPad you're in denial

That's not what he said, that's out of context. You're extending it to some ridiculous extreme.

bitcartel2• 14 years ago

If anybody is planning an anthology, the domain name for 'Fifty Shades of Apple' is still available.

octotoad2• 14 years ago

I automatically interpreted that statement as a reference to the idea that Microsoft is kind of playing catch-up and suffering from a case of 'me too' in the world of tablets and brand-specific retail stores.

I personally can't see anything pointing to an attitude of "if you don't adore the iPad you're in denial" coming from either the article author or Microsoft.

The article's description of the Microsoft store experience and their staff basically makes me think of a small, stubborn child covering their ears and yelling "Blah, blah, blah. I can't hear you!" when competing products and companies are brought up.

anthonyb• 14 years ago

You have to wonder why he even bothered setting foot in the place.

chj• 14 years ago

> The whole "if you don't adore the iPad you're in denial" thing says more about the writer than the Microsoft store salesman.

You misread the blog post. He described a lot of bad details regarding the usability. For example, sluggish rotating, the keyboard cover which is advertised as a distinguished feature isn't that good for typing.

Overall this blog tells a lot of things that I haven't seen elsewhere.

balooner2• 14 years ago

and that tells you he is right and everybody else wrong?

tammer• 14 years ago

To me it's simply a matter of perspective. Personally, while I haven't used a Surface, I already know my opinions will fall precisely in line with Marco's. No one is right or wrong in this argument, all that matters in the end is which side has the majority that is most willing to fork over the cash.

I can almost see the executives at the last company I worked for salivating over the Surface. Many, many people will always see Apple products as superficially limiting and excessively expensive (even when the PC alternative costs more). My liberal-minded art student friends? They've already got iPads.

I think the dichotomy Neil Stephenson outlines in In the Beginning was the Command Line[1] is as true today as it ever was. Apple is Pepsi to MS's Coke, Obama to MS's Romney. Technology consumers fall into very distinct categories, and while Marco obviously falls into one of those, I think he does a good job of highlighting the difference in thought. This is why Microsoft exists and will continue to exist as long as Apple does. They are the anti-Apple.

[1] http://www.cryptonomicon.com/beginning.html

toddmorey• 14 years ago

I don't think the Surface itself has any "elephants." While iOS may have the most time-tested and polished touch interface, I do think the Surface is doing some really interesting work to explore and redefine modern interfaces. You can call it imperfect for sure, but you have to admit it's innovative.

Meanwhile, I do agree with Marco about the Microsoft Store. That is absolutely a strategy of copying what works in an Apple Store. It does feel a bit spooky, and I think they would have done their products a better service by showing the same innovation and creativity here, too.

MaysonL2• 14 years ago

Two expressions seem to fit the Microsoft Store: "uncanny valley" and "cargo cult".

tankbot• 14 years ago

It's obvious that the writer is an Apple person but the piece doesn't feel too biased.

This makes me a little sad, I was rooting for Microsoft this time.

mandeepj2• 14 years ago

I am still rooting for Microsoft this time. I can see myself using surface as a reading device as well as popping up visual studio and writing code in C# :-)

modarts3• 14 years ago

Doesnt't feel biased? Was I reading the same post?

berntb3• 14 years ago

Ok, enough is enough. I have read too much of this.

The author made serious points (even the store uniforms(!) are copied, bad animation handling, office apps are slow, etc, etc).

Why are the anti-Apple fan boys just complaining that the article is biased -- instead of showing that it is biased by answering the "biased" points?

randomchars8• 14 years ago

As a Windows and Android user I feel that it wasn't.

rjzzleep• 14 years ago

not a ms person here(not at ALL in fact).

but ok i get it, was reading, then started skimming, then got to the conclusion tl;dr.

apple store employees handing out stupid useless flyers in the middle of the street in gangs of 3 is better of course.

microsoft is giving out muffin fragments? i'm surprised they gave out anything at all.

Magenta3• 14 years ago

Marco Arment enters a Microsoft store beady-eyed, looking for things to nitpick, sneering at everything, seeing the negative side of everything. Whodathunkit.

The article by this fully-grown adult is summed up as he bitches about how "he isn't told how to exit other stores." What a clown.

thethe• 14 years ago

Beady-eyed?

hdra• 14 years ago

I don't why would an adult would even bother to write something like this.

pacomerh2• 14 years ago

This is totally true, this guy has crossed the line of constructive criticism. But its kind of obvious, his main (maybe only) income comes from apple, so he has to compare everything to his life provider.

khalidmbajwa• 14 years ago

Is it just me, or does the Article really does comes across as quite snarky in tone rather than an honest observation of what he saw ?

randomchars8• 14 years ago

It's just you.

6ren2• 14 years ago

I feel bad for Microsoft. When you are first with a new product with great benefits, everyone forgives your missteps, because it's the only one - the best there is. But when you copy, you are competing with something that has been through iterations of feedback and corrections and bugfix and improvement. You are held to that higher standard, even though you're just starting out!

Also, in the past, Apple regulated the user-experience with the Mac (whereas the PC was open), which seems to have been too constraining. It might seem that history could repeat here, but there's a crucial difference: tablets are now a consumer device, like Sony used to make.

dokem2• 14 years ago

> It was like arguing with a Tea Partier.

I'm sorry, but why was this comparison necessary?

mdonahoe• 14 years ago

It captures his frustration: arguing with someone, knowing no amount of logic or evidence will change their position.

An atheist might say its like arguing with a christian.

A pc person might say its like arguing with an apple fanboy.

Batman arguing with joker?

This was not a great or balanced blog post by any means, but I didn't think this sentence was the worst part.

randomchars8• 14 years ago

Because he can't say arguing with a christian. Are you one of them?

dokem2• 14 years ago

I am not, it just seemed like an immature comparison to make.

Todd• 14 years ago

It's a shame to see Marco panning the Surface so thoroughly. It's apples and oranges. On the one hand, comparing brand new hardware (one day old) with 4th generation hardware and on the other hand comparing brand new software (again, one day old) with version 6 software.

Despite the criticisms of some of the execution here and there (e.g., the pointless animations), it's clear if you've done any reading that a tremendous amount of research and UX work went into this--but it's a v1 product and many of the apps are written by groups other than MS.

I got a chance to use the Surface today and the thing that I came away with was that this could be a person's only computer. As an example, you can browse the file system, run desktop apps, and copy files to external storage. I can't say that about an iPad. Everyone I know who owns an iPad (myself included) also has a second computer somewhere--often in the same bag.

The other thing I came away with was that Microsoft is open and Apple is closed. Why can't I plug a microSD card into any Apple product? Why can't I plug in a USB device? You can plug your camera into the Surface (it's a host) and download pictures to your local machine. MS has several capacities and price points, just like Apple, but they're not afraid to let you use external storage.

I believe in a future with open computing and, firmware lock downs notwithstanding, MS is far more open than Apple.

babesh3• 14 years ago

It is not apples and oranges. People making a utility-based purchasing decision can only compare the 1st generation Surface to the 4th generation iPad.

The amount of R&D has no relevance to a consumer. The relevant thing is how much value the device provides.

I agree that the expectation and advantage is to have your tablet serve as your one and only computer. But this will never be actually true since most people will actually have to carry around a phone (or phablet). The portability and availability of a phone will beat out that of a tablet. Try jogging with a tablet. What a tablet currently buys you is a larger screen and a keyboard that you can type on for awhile.

A truer statement may be that this tablet's aim is to take on additional functionality found in desktops and laptops and not found in other tablets. In Microsoft's mind, that functionality is Office and access the file system.

You can plug in microSD and USD into an iPad. You need the accessories. Agree that they don't let you use external storage.

If you want open computing, you shouldn't be picking Microsoft, nor Apple, nor Google. Are you saying that you want to depend on an entity whose sole purpose is to make money to supply you with open source code in the long run? How about Oracle with Java? Or Compuserve with gif? Corporations don't even trust other corporations with key technologies without making them open source or FRAND. If you truly want open source, you should be branching Android and replacing or removing Google services with open source alternatives.

lostlogin3• 14 years ago

Well, you disagree with Microsoft. As an exec said here (sorry to link to BGR) http://bgr.com/2012/10/25/microsoft-executive-mundie-intervi... MS lead the way with tablets and touch based systems. If they were first, the surface isn't version 1.

babesh3• 14 years ago

Check out this awesome article on tablets from Tadhg Kelly: http://m.techcrunch.com/2012/10/27/tablet-first-mobile-secon...

Makes the case that tablets can provide different value from phones.

megablast• 14 years ago

What is the deal with people running around decrying the fact that people compare the surface and the iPad. Of course you can compare them. Microsoft might not want you to, but they will be compared. Not many people are going to get both. They are both tablets.

And just like every other consumer, you need to compare the latest iPad with the latest surface. Not many people care about your excuses.

Why are there so many Microsoft apologists out this week?

Yes, there are advantages to the Surface, this should have been the focus of your reply.

corporalagumbo11• 14 years ago

I think it's fair to point out that the Surface and Windows 8 are both v1, and that Microsoft will clearly work on improving them rapidly. They have a lot of rough spots now but the situation could be very different in two or three years. This doesn't mean that you should ignore either product's current problems of course. The iPhone wasn't perfect when it came out either.

pnathan• 14 years ago

> I got a chance to use the Surface today and the thing that I came away with was that this could be a person's only computer. As an example, you can browse the file system, run desktop apps, and copy files to external storage.

That's kiiiinda cool. Marco said that the Surface felt like a computer (is that a bad thing), and it sounded pretty good to me. I use an iPhone now and its artificial limitations are kind of ridiculous.

If/when I snag a tablet, I'll be hard at work making it work like a computer - just a hand-held one.

tluyben2• 14 years ago

A few people said it already, but if you get into a store which is not smack in the middle of a tech startup area of a city (where the rest of the world lives), you'll see people browsing tablets (and laptops) in a very similar way; they walk and try Androids and iPads (and Surface?) in one go. They want a tablet as they have some purpose for it or they don't need a desktop of laptop (the latter becoming more and more relevant every day; I see a lot of non tech people pick up iPads or the more expensive Androids instead of laptops). If they had a brand in mind they most likely will buy that, but, as I frequent large stores in different countries, I see people (young and old) just touching 5-6 of them before buying. I really don't think anyone gives a crap about 1st/2nd/whatever generation or whatever software. They'll buy what they like then and there. So MS SHOULD be on par with the latest iPad, hardware and software OR have prices comparable with discounter Androids. I see it as a hard sale for non techies otherwise. They compare their 'feeling' when touching it, browsing apps, browsing the web, playing a game and watching video. And then they compare price. So I agree apples and oranges on a tech point of view, but business wise who cares; it's a bad comparison only on price (compared to cheap Android pads), on features no-one cares; you pick what's better for that price.

bjustin2• 14 years ago

>As an example, you can browse the file system,

Yes, unlike the iPad you can access the filesystem OOTB.

>run desktop apps,

No, you can't. Office and (I think) Notepad and Paint are the only desktop apps you can run on the Surface with Windows RT.

>The other thing I came away with was that Microsoft is open and Apple is closed. Why can't I plug a microSD card into any Apple product? Why can't I plug in a USB device? You can plug your camera into the Surface (it's a host) and download pictures to your local machine.

You can't use an SD card as additional storage, but you can import pictures from a camera over USB or directly from an SD card, using the $30 camera connection kit. The USB port on the camera connection kit can be used for other purposes as well, for example MIDI keyboards: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6Pwa3SbFFE

Not the same as having a USB port included, but the iPad is more capable than you make it out to be.

mun2mun• 14 years ago

Just look at the caption of third image. He is so much into trolling that he didn't mind pulling his son into it.

Shinkei• 14 years ago

Good lord... this is an article written by someone with an incredible bias. I mean he takes so many low-blows on the salespeople and belittles everyone and everything about the store. They are trained to sell things to an average consumer... not a tech-savvy blogger who knows his/her stuff. Most consumers don't even know what a sound card is or that a computer has ram. Marco needs to relax... not to mention that his mean-spirited article with identifiable employee faces could subject him to civil liability.

nextstep• 14 years ago

I could not agree more with the distinction the author draws between Apple's products and Microsoft. Sure, Apple's ecosystem is limited, but Microsoft's offering is very rough and will do many tasks poorly at the cost of doing just a few tasks well.

mariusmg• 14 years ago

This guy is biased. That's all.

corporalagumbo11• 14 years ago

So does this alleged "bias" invalidate his criticisms of Microsoft's retail efforts?

deong2• 14 years ago

I don't know. That's the problem with bias. I haven't seen a surface in person or visited a Microsoft store, but from the entire tone of the article, I know I can't trust his account. He may be a veritable prophet with regards to Microsoft and the Surface, but if I can't trust him (and I don't), I'll have to figure that out on my own.

ditoa• 14 years ago

I am waiting to see the pricing on the Surface Pro. That is what I am interested in. I was very close to buying an ultrabook but am holding off to see how the SP is as a general computer as well as a tablet.

aik• 14 years ago

Odd, I played with the Surface yesterday and the device I used was much different than the one described here. I have an iPad (and love it in many ways), however found the Surface fairly refreshing in several ways. For one:

I find that I can't really hold the iPad with one hand, partially because the shape and weight distribution, partially because it feels so incredibly fragile. I found the Surface to be shaped comfortably, even for one hand, and thought it felt much more durable than the iPad (this article states it doesn't feel light like the iPhone 5, however even though it's comparable in weight to the iPad 3, my first thought was that it feels kind of like the lightness and increased sense of durability of the iPhone 5).

>> I couldn’t type on the Touch Cover significantly faster than with the on-screen keyboard.

Seriously? I type on the iPad a lot and resort to "pecking" most of the time, and I have fairly average sized hands. I instantly was able to use the touch cover like a normal keyboard. I made a few mistakes, but could easily see myself typing nearly as fast as a normal keyboard with a little practice. I have no such feeling with the iPad.

>> Apple’s products say, “You can’t do that because we think it would suck.” Microsoft’s products say, “We’ll let you try to do anything on anything if you really want to, even if it sucks.”

Wow, what a sad sounding world for people who like Apple products.

I'm not going to buy a Surface yet, but I'm seriously tempted.

olalonde• 14 years ago

Haven't tried the Surface yet but something I haven't seen anyone mention is that when you are typing on the Touch Cover, your hands are not hiding the screen. That seems like a big plus to me.

Kickstarter idea: pitch a "Touch Cover" product for the iPad (could be done using the USB port I believe). PS: lawyer up!

Osiris• 14 years ago

I thought the author's comment about being able to type as fast on the on-screen keyboard as the type cover was totally missing the point. The on-screen keyboard takes up half the screen. Plus, with the type cover, you can hold the screen at a good viewing angle while typing on a flat surface.

gregsq• 14 years ago

I don't know if a reinvention there is needed. I have an iPhone and a 15" MBP but probably the most useful productivity improver I have is an almost weightless Bluetooth clicket keyboard that I carry around. If I need to type something like a document on the go, it often turns out that it's much easier to simply put the keyboard on my knee, put the iPhone in landscape on a surface in front on a foldable bit of home made plinth, and rap away at the keys at four times the rate I could without one.

Of course iPad users look at me oddly and go back to touching like buttons and watching videos.

MaysonL2• 14 years ago

No need for Kickstarter: Google is your friend! Try "ipad keyboard case" or "ipad keyboard cover".

corporalagumbo11• 14 years ago

I get the impression that his whole experience of the Surface was tainted by Microsoft's ham-fisted attempts at retail culture. The Surface sounds like a cool product with a lot of potential but from everything I've heard about Microsoftle Stores I can't blame him for not being in the mood. As he described it they're overflowing with weird forced enthusiasm... like the ugly girl at the party who's having SO MUCH FUN and and wants to talk to everyone about how fun this party is!

bjustin2• 14 years ago

>Seriously? I type on the iPad a lot and resort to "pecking" most of the time, and I have fairly average sized hands. I instantly was able to use the touch cover like a normal keyboard. I made a few mistakes, but could easily see myself typing nearly as fast as a normal keyboard with a little practice. I have no such feeling with the iPad.

Did you have the same problem Marco mentioned, that he could not rest his fingers on the keyboard without accidentally typing? That would explain your faster typing speed vs his.

rbanffy5• 14 years ago

> Microsoft’sproducts say, “We’ll letyou tryto do anything on anything ifyou reallywant to, even if it sucks.”

In the specific case of web browsers, they will allow you to build one as long as it sucks.

thedrbrian• 14 years ago

What makes the iPad feel fragile?

cromwellian• 14 years ago

Wait, so Apple invented the idea of a store with flat tables and sales staff with blue shirts? First of all, practically every high end women's shoe or bag store had that "Art Gallery" presentation style: hardwood floors, uncluttered and spacious, simply flat tables or shelves with few products. Although the sales people are usually dressed very sharp.

But Apple did not invent this style of presenting consumer electronics. Sometimes I feel like Marco, MG, and Gruber were born 5 years ago. Am I the only one who bought nice, industrial designed stuff from stores like Bang and Olufsen? The Beocom 2 came out in 2002 and some of the Bang and Olufsen stores had flat tables like that. And if you visited some of the boutique stores in Italy or Japan even 10 years ago you would find some with this layout.

And didn't BestBuy invent the blue-shirt guy? I'm kind of bored of the continued notion that Apple was the first consumer electronics company to obsess over industrial design, build quality, or retail presentation.

pedalpete• 14 years ago

You don't even have to go to the B&O stores, you can hit much closer to home with the computer set and Sony stores.

jopt5• 14 years ago

That's an important point. When Samsung or Microsoft take hints from what Apple do, many decry this as though Apple were never themselves inspired, and that's misinformed.

(others) -> Bang Olufsen, fashion boutiques -> Apple Stores -> Microsoft Stores -> (future)

This chain of inspiration is precisely what makes intellectual property very vague to reason about.

Meanwhile, it's probably also misinformed to say Microsoft or Samsung were not inspired by Apple. I don't think Microsoft were primarily influenced by Bang Olufsen stores. I don't think this is the direction they would have taken without Apple doing it before them.

I don't know if Macro is not seeing the picture clearly or if he's just miscommunicating. If he's saying that Apple was the original source of this store layout, that's silly. If he's trying to point out that Microsoft's decisions were largely a reaction to Apple's, he's not wrong.

ansonparker• 14 years ago

Apple aren't great because they invent everything from scratch. They're great because they are able to consistently identify the best ideas and combine them into something amazing.

Microsoft, on the other hand, seem to take a bunch of concepts at face value and mash them together without totally understanding them. Or perhaps in a company so large and distributed it's more a case of great ideas becoming corrupted over time. I don't know.

Look at Marco's photos of the Microsoft store. On the surface it looks like they did a good job. Look a little closer and you quickly see dumb decisions. For example, the "Windows 8" lettering on the floor they need a staff member to warn people not to step over. It's these mis-steps that undermine Microsoft and make them look like they're simply ripping off Apple Stores (and tablets) without really understanding what makes them awesome.

corporalagumbo11• 14 years ago

There's a difference between tastefully selecting reference points from a wide range of inspiration sources, and crudely imitating a direct comptetitor who has heretofore been wiping the floor with you. The former is what Apple did when creating the Apple Store, and what every other successful designer does when creating something original. The latter is what wannabes do when they begin to realise how uncool they are.

Successfully repurposing ideas into fresh contexts is good work. This is not what Microsoft has done. Not by a long shot.

As to the Bang and Olufson argument, well, B&O sell speakers and is a nice company, but Apple sells the future of humanity and is the largest company in the world. It's a question of vision and impact, not who came up with hardwood floors first.

Come to think of it, the whole who-thought-of-it-first is a real red herring when thinking about why Apple/Apple Stores are significant.

hazov• 14 years ago

So what?

Apparently from the various posts relating to discussions about Apple some people take the idea of others emulating Apple as a criminal offense, a type of offense in which for them is valid to point the fingers in the face of such companies and repeated yelling: "loser loser."

About your two last paragraphs I dislike this wording but it shows every mark of the fanboy speak, when given the facts that someone made some elements that Apple uses today just say how Apple is significant compared to them, it's the reverse of the above pattern. This is increasingly making me sick.

mtgx• 14 years ago

The MS store employee who says you can't see any pixels is obviously lying, and I'm guessing that's what Microsoft told them to say.

forrestthewoods• 14 years ago

This post is 1/100th as useful as full write ups from Wired, Verge, ArsTechnica, or Anandtech. It's just not deep, insightful, or meaningful in comparison. I'd highly recommend reading those reviews if you're looking for anything insightful about the Surface.

bztzt3• 14 years ago

well, he correctly noticed that the gestures and animations take a different approach than Apple's but that apparently just makes them "wrong" to him - Apple's is the only valid approach.

fwiw, here's a good presentation of the design rationale behind the use of animations in Windows 8: http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Build/BUILD2011/APP-206T

Gestures: http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/TechDays/Techdays-2012-the-N...

jopt5• 14 years ago

Can't you summarize? I don't have 120 minutes. If you spend one minute making your point, and I spend one minute reading it, this conversation will be more efficient.

Sources are great when they support or expand on points you're making, but they're no replacement for dialogue. The comments become really spammy if it's all just links to videos and research papers.

bztzt3• 14 years ago

Yeah, I realized most / everyone probably wouldn't have time to watch but hoped someone might be interested. I guess my basic point is that the animations and gestures are deliberately designed to feel more precise and clarify the discrete actions you're taking (which is to put a more positive spin on what he describes negatively as "feeling like a computer" - not that either spin is right or wrong). It's a purposeful contrast to Apple's bubblier approach, it's not that they tried to make their animations like Apple's but Didn't Get It.

jemeshsu• 14 years ago

For Apple we have MG, Gruber and Marco. For Microsoft, is there any? And for Google?

pacomerh2• 14 years ago

This guy is naturally arrogant. I totally understand how Microsoft is missing the point but come on, what is the point of this article?, is he trying to point out that people are missing these kind of things?.

kirillzubovsky• 14 years ago

Very entertaining. Thank you for posting!

rhplus• 14 years ago

The pictures clearly show that the entire mall is empty, not just the Microsoft store.

exodust• 14 years ago

Why oh why did I read another pointless Apple fanboy article. It really isn't worth taking sides with these big companies and their sales tactics... Both play cheap awkward tricks. Both are trying to get your money and manipulate your habits.

The last line of the article says it all "I fled Windows 8 years ago with no intention of returning". Wow, thanks for that information. I really needed to know about your blind faith in Apple, and your feelings for Windows. I'm sure you attend Apple store openings and queue for the high-fives and woot-woots.

jamesbrennan• 14 years ago

Great article.

I get that some want the hardware upgradeability of MS PCs, but your can't do anything to Windows because its closed source. I buy Macs because I get the benefits of both a polished and (somewhat) open source operating system - not to mention its Unix. Also, in Apple hardware you actually know what you're getting - the majority of it is Intel. With other manufacturers unless you custom build your machine, its hard to know what you're actually getting inside beyond the specs on paper.

ezolotko2• 14 years ago

It is especially sad to read such an article after the release of iOS 6. Before, it was a bit rude, biased and all, but now I feel it cannot be justified anymore.

corporalagumbo11• 14 years ago

What are you trying to imply? That criticisms of Microsoft's retail efforts are no longer valid because Apple made a mistake with Maps?

ezolotko2• 14 years ago

Not exactly. I personally suffer from how the AppStore iOS application is made. Then the maps. The quality of many details is lost. After such obvious defects, it is hard to be in position to be extravagant and rude. The love is gone.

mrich• 14 years ago

  The pitches were aggressive, fast-paced, and competitively 
  defensive: they often mentioned “other tablets” and didn’t 
  let me forget which features were “not available on any 
  other tablet”.

This sounds like a description of the iPad mini keynote.

randomchars8• 14 years ago

My thoughts exactly.

nnq• 14 years ago

"It feels too much like using a Windows PC" ...bingo!

That's the point, Windows 7 and 8 offer great desktop experiences and having "one system to rule them all" is the selling point ...though I'd rather have an x86 version of the tablet with the ability to use exactly the same software since the type cover is basically a usable keyboard ...hope Intel does some magic with ultra low power x86 chips soon

lifeisstillgood• 14 years ago

If the alternate universe is one where "you can expand and alter even if it sucks" then can I boot BSD on surface?

radicalbyte• 14 years ago

Am I the only one who finds this blind following of a specific platform all rather childish?*

Platform zealotry is the domain of children, the feeble minded and host of shills who feed on the above two groups (and the platform holder's marketing budgets).

* Rhetorical question (I expect that most HNers agree).

davidpayne11• 14 years ago

You need some credibility before you write articles about huge corporations that have achieved something. Atleast you must be somewhere near the top of the hierarchy where your subject is, to understand fully about them, so you can even consider writing about them. I fail to see how a guy with an app on an Appstore can think he is credible enough to write about a huge corporation that has taken risks he wouldn't even imagine taking himself and has had first hand experience and information about the market better than this guy. Microsoft is the one that makes the marketplace and Marco is just someone who submits his apps there. That's the difference in their positions in the hierarchy. What a shitty article.

corporalagumbo11• 14 years ago

He walked into a store and hated it. For any company that cares about success he is credible.

wiredzen• 14 years ago

So, in order to have an opinion, one must have credibility? Credibility in whose eyes? Yours? Mine? This is, in my opinion, an utterly ridiculous comment in it its elitist and exclusionary tone. Are but a dog on a leash? I ask because you've basically just stated that corporations are beyond criticism from individuals. So, apparently we should all be corporate zombies like you, just toeing the line, never questioning... Yes, that is much better for the world.

The irony is that all the people hacking on Marco for giving his opinion are doing exactly the same thing right here. So let me get this straight - as long as you (or anybody) agrees with a stated opinion, then that opinion should be allowed to exist, praised even. But once you disagree with that opinion then you will come up with countless reasons why that opinion should be removed. Hypocrite.

myspy• 14 years ago

I don't know why it is so hard to understand, that some people want to have the best experience.

The iPad does not everything, but at what it does, it tries to be the best.

The Surface is trying to be best at everything, but that creates so many trade-offs, it drags down the user experience.

I left Win XP, and Windows 7 did not make me come back, because there are so many things that lack decision making in leaving features out rather than putting everything in. Metro is a step in the right direction, but it needs more finish.

A computer should help you, and guide you to achieve a goal. A Win PC usually needs a lot of work to bend him in a way which enables you to do your task. And I have enough of that.

Why do I need experts in an Office program? Why not making the Office program so intuitive, that it is super easy to create a set of documents? Why not cutting unnecessary features out? A Metro version of Office, which does that, wouldn't that be great?

Furthermore, I don't want to tinker, I don't want to dig through five layers of settings.

I want to see the IT world going on. And Windows was not really helping in pushing the world forward in the last decade. Apple did. That's why some of the praise and "fanboism" is justified.

Let's see who leads the next decade, but have an open mind and acknowledge the fact that people like Marco, Gruber, or MG have an idea of what they are talking about.

They give credit where credit is due. But MS has to do a lot more to earn that credit. Maybe they have to cut some things out of the Metro side and go dual platform. It will help to make Metro something that pushes forward the whole industry.

When a lot of people are used to Win 8, maybe it's a good thing to go separate ways with Win 9. The "professionals" will use their desktop and the rest is used to Metro and maybe they will see how it excels the desktop version with ease of use.

kmfrk• 14 years ago

Glad to see he went in there with an open mind.

bornhuetter• 14 years ago

This is just pure trollbait. It's disappointing to see it on HN, as it doesn't provoke any useful discussion whatsoever.

smackfu4• 14 years ago

This is pretty much the same insufferable stuff he goes into when he talks about Microsoft on his podcast. A general ignorance because he never uses the stuff (except long wnough to look for flaws) but that doesn't stop him from being an expert in his mind. I just hit the two minute skip button until I get to the Apple topics where I think he has informed opinions.

Magenta3• 14 years ago

..but he used Microsoft products, 8 years ago! Doesn't that make him an expert on all things Microsoft?

olgeni• 14 years ago

Of course, Apple clearly offers the best design, performance, user experience, documentation, reliability, and overall quality.

(pause)

Can I have my UIGlassButton now?

Even Genius-blue-only would be a start.

underwater2• 14 years ago

So apparently the stores are too much like Apple's, but the tablet is not similar enough.

The one to one feature comparison to the iPad is silly. The surface is not trying to be a carbon copy. Features like retina display come with trade offs in power, speed and cost that were obviously not worth the trade off. It seems that ever since Apple raised the issue pixels have gone from being something few ever thought about to being physically painful to consumer's eyeballs.

There were a few factual inaccuracies in Marco's post. The touch keyboard does allow you to rest your fingers on the surface. It's smart enought to recognize what is intended to be an actual keystroke. Rotating the screen does show a transition too; the screen shrinks, fades and expands.

An Alternate Universe (Microsoft Surface)

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