Amazon reopen wiped Kindle account

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by EwanToo • 14 years ago

293 146 14 years ago

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lambada• 14 years ago

Explanation/ update here: http://blogs.computerworlduk.com/simon-says/2012/10/rights-y...

thomaslutz2• 14 years ago

"We would like to clarify our policy on this topic. Account status should not affect any customer's ability to access their library. If any customer has trouble accessing their content, he or she should contact customer service for help. Thank you for your interest in Kindle."

kmfrk2• 14 years ago

It's astonishing that they persist with the robotic language in their clarification. Something tantamount to "We fucked up, sorry, dude" would help them so much more.

I guess it just reflects their attitude towards customers.

piquadrat• 14 years ago

Because contacting customer service worked so great the first three times...

conradfr• 14 years ago

This reply contradicts the original story.

tjoff2• 14 years ago

Yeah, and we saw how well that worked yesterday...

thomaslutz2• 14 years ago

Like e.g. with Google actions without explantations, but the refusal to give them are the worst for me as a customer.

smoyer2• 14 years ago

It's a standard "big-corp" thing. I can understand why they'd avoid saying why a credit card transaction was rejected, but they're missing an opportunity to remind the world that their corporation is actually made up of humans.

ihsw• 14 years ago

It's simply a shitty attitude, and being a large corporation is irrelevant.

Aardwolf• 14 years ago

Does anyone know if Kindle supports reading normal (by which I mean without DRM or so) PDF files, even PDF files where each page is an image rather than text? Is it possible to put PDF files on it through USB as "mass storage device", or at least in some way that supports doing it from Linux through USB? Is it possible to do this without Kindle account?

Because, the hardware of the device looks nice to me, especially if you'd add a water proof cover around it.

Thanks!

Tyrannosaurs4• 14 years ago

Yes it does but it's not great at displaying them. They don't scale brilliantly on the eInk screen so you tend to want to zoom and pan which is clunky to say the least.

From my perspective I'd look at an iPad or Android tablet for PDFs for this sort of thing - it's really not the Kindle's strong suit.

In terms of moving stuff over - yep, you can just mount it as a drive and copy stuff across, or use one of several readily available tools for managing content (I use Caliber on the Mac, not sure if it's available for Linux).

shrikant• 14 years ago

Yep, Calibre is available for Linux (I used it under Ubuntu 12.04, and now 12.10), and IMHO, is one of the more well-behaved cross-platform apps.

arnoooooo• 14 years ago

It does. PDF is not the best format though, as it has rigid formatting which makes it unpractical on a small screen. You can convert it to mobi with a program like Calibre though, which is much better (for text at least).

And I don't know if you can use your kindle at all without an Amazon account.

SeanDav• 14 years ago

I bought a second hand Kindle DX to read PDF's. I installed Duokan on it, which a 3rd party OS that has much better PDF handling and allows dual booting with Kindle OS. It also supports epub format.

It is very easy to use Kindle without an Amazon account as there are all sorts of tools to allow you to do pretty much anything you want on your Kindle.

AFAIK you can install Duokan on every Kindle version.

leddt• 14 years ago

Duokan looks great. I had never heard of it. Thanks!

ableal• 14 years ago

Thanks for the tip. Explicit support for the DX is missing in the more recent releases. There seems to be some help here:

http://flip.netzbeben.de/2010/11/duokan-available-with-engli...

(via FAQ at http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105847)

theorique• 14 years ago

You can view PDFs easily enough on a physical Kindle device, though as others have stated they don't scale that well.

You cannot operate a Kindle in conjunction with Amazon's ecosystem without having an Amazon account registered to an email address that you control. There may be ways to jailbreak a Kindle so as to enable you to (e.g.) transfer files via the USB cable without registering the device.

evilduck• 14 years ago

E-Ink Kindles can technically display PDFs, but in practical terms, you wouldn't want to read a PDF book on one. Unless the PDF dimensions are just perfect (and it rarely ever happens, maybe the DX is better?) or you generated the PDF yourself, a PDF's typical page margin gets rendered, generally cropping off the text on the bottom and/or right hand side of the page. This means that you have to pan the PDF page back to a near-center position every page turn. It's disruptive to your reading flow.

happimess• 14 years ago

When reading PDFs on my Kindle, I change the orientation to landscape. It's not a perfect solution, as diagrams are sometimes broken in half, but it works well enough for me.

WalterBright2• 14 years ago

Set your Kindle to "fit to screen" and then in landscape mode, and it will make it palatable. I do this all the time.

That said, the pdf rendering could be easily improved a lot, and I've send numerous suggestions to Amazon for this. None of them have been implemented, sadly.

johnrgrace• 14 years ago

I love my Kindle DX because it's huge screen means PDF's read very nicely without cropping or pan and zoom.

dap• 14 years ago

Others have pointed out that they don't scale well, but if you mail a plaintext PDF to a special email address associated with your kindle, they'll reformat it for the kindle and deliver it: http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html/ref=hp_p...

sergiotapia• 14 years ago

I own a Kindle Fire (not hd) and I downloaded a shit-ton of .mobi ebooks from ThePirateBay, I can read them just fine on the device.

Still, after this story broke I regret buying one. I hate companies that think they can remote control a device I purchased from them.

WalterBright2• 14 years ago

Yes, it does, and I use the Kindle all the time to read such PDF files.

jiggy20113• 14 years ago

So moral of the story? Make sure you have a blog with significant readership if you want good customer service?

_pferreir_• 14 years ago

Quite so. Or that you have a friend who can do that for you.

thejosh• 14 years ago

Same as problems for pretty much any tech, such as Google.

jmilloy5• 14 years ago

Does anyone have any data about how often [Amazon] ignores or fixes customer service issues despite a lack of high-visibility blogging?

My 10th grade world history teacher had a small segment on the rainmaking rituals of some group of people. When rain was needed, they would continue the rituals until it rained. From their view, the rituals worked. I don't think clouds drift around waiting for the rituals to build up, and I don't think customer service departments sit around waiting for blog entries about their company.

I'm not suggesting that large companies are blind to signal from the public, or that they ignore it. But why do we think that without such signal from the public these fixes wouldn't have happened, other than a cultural aversion to large companies and their PR departments?

TillE2• 14 years ago

> I don't think customer service departments sit around browsing the internet for blog entries about their company

This story bubbled up through HN, BoingBoing, and many other tech news outlets. Someone at Amazon inevitably saw it. Nobody's claiming they randomly stumbled across the original blog entry.

jiggy20113• 14 years ago

I would be surprised if amazon didn't have at least one person full time looking at blogs/forums etc trying to gauge public reaction and put out fires.

It's a shame that things like this aren't used as an opportunity to clarify things or affect changes in policy for everyone. It seems more common that a company will just come out and basically say (not in so many words) "oh , we made an exception for this person because we got bad PR".

mikeash3• 14 years ago

It is as ridiculous to think that a company full of intelligent people is not influenced by tech news as it is to think that clouds are influenced by dancing.

pasbesoin2• 14 years ago

Because "the process" had already made its determination and sent the Kindle owner its final "kiss off" email.

wtallis• 14 years ago

You don't think a company like Amazon would have software crawling social media doing sentiment analysis? Amazon's going up against Google and Apple, so they have to care about their image. I would be shocked if the social media outcry over this issue hadn't triggered an automated alert in Amazon's PR department.

reitzensteinm• 14 years ago

Unfortunately, sampling bias means the moral of the story for consumers at large is going to be "DRM lockouts happen, but the customers are usually taken care of".

Karunamon• 14 years ago

Alternatively, the moral is "DRM lockouts happen, but very rarely, the chance of it happening to you is pretty low."

It still shouldn't have taken a front page story to get this fixed, though.

praptak• 14 years ago

> So moral of the story?

You don't own anything with DRM on it, until you make a copy that is free of DRM. Judge the price accordingly. Use the rippers as soon as they are available. Exercise and eat healthy.

podperson4• 14 years ago

The question is, how much is your time worth? I'd rather take the time I save by not ripping all my media and spend it doing useful stuff. Someday I may discover I can no longer watch old episodes of How I Met Your Mother -- and it will incense me, but I think I'll get over it.

bigiain• 14 years ago

I had a different take-away/question/moral.

If un-notified/disclosed behaviour on a Kindle book purchasing account can get that or "a related account" closed without notice, and I've got important things running in AWS on both personal and work accounts that Amazon quite likely knows are "related" (since I and my colleagues often log out of personal accounts and into work/customer accounts), it seems like a non-ignorable risk that some of my critical infrastructure may one day vanish from underneath me and I'd end up in non-accountable support hell cut-n-pasting barely relevant sections of policy documentation in reply to email queries.

All of a sudden having my businesses main cloud computing supplier be the same company that I personally use to purchase things like tech-toys, DRMed media, have occasional disputes with 3rd party vendors, and pay for high-risk projects via KickStarter - seems like an unnecessary business risk.

This is possibly misplaced paranoia, but…

temuze• 14 years ago

> So moral of the story? The Amazon giveth, but the Amazon mostly taketh away.

davidw• 14 years ago

Actually, I think some of us are a bit surprised by this because Amazon mostly does have pretty good customer service. There have been tons of stories about Google pulling this kind of stunt, but far fewer about Amazon.

Yver• 14 years ago

And in this case, not even "good."

Nursie• 14 years ago

They reopened it because people heard about it and then started talking about stripping DRM and resorting to piracy, so somebody, somewhere decided to make this go away as fast as possible and as quietly as possible.

/cynic

tomrod• 14 years ago

I've never understood how DRM can be stripped from a mobi file. I've never been able to find the files when I looked on my ipod. (I think I've shown my lack of hacking on the ipod with this comment--eep!).

jmount• 14 years ago

Usually you use a general computer to strip the DRM. On a Mac or PC you have a program masquerade as a client (like Kindle for PC) and then remove the DRM from the contents it get. MyTunes was for Itunes was like that in the past.

dromidas• 14 years ago

Yeah it's a good idea to do that for anything you 'lease', at least when there isn't supposed to be an expiration on that lease.

sodomizer• 14 years ago

This is the real outcome:

"Account status should not affect any customer's ability to access their library."

Amazon has realized that they can quarantine suspect accounts, but not cut off the customer's right to their purchased books.

Every other manufacturer is now going to follow suit. The end result is a win for the consumer.

danteembermage• 14 years ago

Thank you for pointing out this important aspect of the story, when these public shamings lead to structural change it is much different than just switching the particular use case the produced the embarrassing result.

Welcome to the community! I would like to point out that sexually explicit usernames are not the norm here. Since your comment history and karma are tied to your user account and that account may persist for a long time, you might consider changing to a different name before you get too invested in this one and regret it later when it's too late to easily switch. Many users are known here by their handle and it is not uncommon for people to say things like "Send up the Patio11/Cpercival/Grellas/TokenAdult bat signal!" because users remember who made valuable comments and may recognize you by name. You are of course free to choose for yourself, your call.

revscat• 14 years ago

> Every other manufacturer is now going to follow suit. The end result is a win for the consumer.

Perhaps, for now. But there is nothing preventing them from changing their policies later, or even doing so capriciously. Consumers will not be safe from similar events until the law is changed to prevent companies from doing this.

mcguire• 14 years ago

You do realize that "Account status should not affect any customer's ability to access their library." was a restatement of their existing policy, not a change in that policy.

tjoff2• 14 years ago

Nah, that has always been the case. What happens if you mod your xbox? You get banned from xbox live, MS don't brick your device or remove your games.

Amazon is just doing their best to fuck their customers, and boy they are good at it. I can barely conceive a workplace so fucked up to come up with something as ludicrous as this shit.

axx• 14 years ago

I bet it was exactly like this:

1. Kindle-wipe Story on Hackernews.

2. One engineer at Amazon saw the story, told it some Executive above him

3. The Executive "nerds, let them talk THIS is real business!"

4. One day later "How To Strip DRM from Kindle E-Books and Others (wired.com)" on Hackernews

5. The Executive "OH SNAP! REOPEN REOPEN REOPEN!!11"

jmduke• 14 years ago

Ha ha! Executives are dumb and also terrible people!

/sigh

cletus• 14 years ago

This is a good outcome and something that should probably be enshrined in law: if you've purchased ebooks (or in fact any digital media) then you should absolutely have access to it regardless of the state of your account. The only time this shouldn't apply (IMHO) is when the payment itself is in question (eg you used a credit card that got reported stolen so any items bought on suspect transactions may be suspended pending investigation).

It shouldn't surprise me that some give credence to conspiracy theories but it does. Amazon panicked and reversed itself because a story about removing DRM was on the front page of HN? Seriously?

What you'll find with customer service departments is that what they do is largely prescribed by scripts. Call centers work like this (to the point of there being checking to see that people don't deviate from the script). They will have procedures that must be followed.

The Mark Fiore example [1] springs to mind. Some saw some global conspiracy. The more likely explanation is that the procedures defined for those approving apps just hadn't taken such a scenario into account when being written ie it was an oversight (a "mistake" as Steve Jobs called it).

We're all too willing to accept bugs in software. Procedures that humans need to follow--particularly if they need to follow them rigidly--have bugs too. The more discretion you give those following the procedures, the more you tend to just add inconsistency.

[1] http://mediadecoder.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/20/pulitzer-wi...

EDIT: to clarify, I think the original story getting as much of an audience as it did certainly helped and may well have been instrumental. It's kind of sad that that's the case. I was referring to some commenters putting forward theories about the DRM removal story being the catalyst for action here, which is ludicrous.

edanm• 14 years ago

You really don't think the article getting published has anything to do with Amazon's about-face? I'm surprised. I usually assume that these kinds of stories do cause companies to change their behaviour in specific cases.

Why do you think otherwise?

Note: I love Amazon and agreed with your defending of them in the original post. I'm honestly surprised that it isn't obvious that the article influenced Amazon here.

danso• 14 years ago

When's the last time a submission to HN got more than 1000 upvotes? When Steve Jobs died? I think the article's popularity (not just on HN, but HN's upvotes are a decent measure of how much an article will be re-shared) is most definitely a reason for this one person's problem being fixed.

jmilloy5• 14 years ago

One possibility is that Amazon's policy is (and has been) to leave purchased content on a Kindle even if the account is blocked. Unfortunately, content was removed from a Kindle after an account was blocked. Once Amazon became aware of the issue, they were able to fix it, restoring the content. In addition, because the issue had become public, Amazon chose to clarify their position and point out that mistakes can occur and be fixed. Importantly, the emails we saw yesterday refer only to why the account was blocked and whether it could be unblocked; neither the customer nor the service rep discussed the specific removal of DRM content on the device.

I find the alternatives much more surprising:

- Amazon did not have a policy on this issue prior to this situation.

- Amazon's policy is to remove any and all purchased content without explanation or warning, and they thought that no one would mind. Once they thought about it, they changed their policy.

- Or they thought they might as well screw as many people as they could until the issue became a big deal, at which point they would suddenly change their policy

- (or pretend that their policy was different all along).

- BTW, There are no bugs in Amazon's code, so one of the above must be true and any removal of content had to be due to their evil policies

- The customer service department at Amazon ignores mistakes that they know about and could fix until enough computer programmers and tech enthusiasts know about them, too.

- (because, of course, the readership of hn/wired/etc makes up a significant portion of Amazon's revenues. I mean, doesn't everyone talk about reddit at the bar after work?)

Instead, why couldn't there just be a simple mistake, which was fixed once someone became aware of it? We could all agree that the high visibility of the issue helped make the mistake clear (which Linn's emails did not) and high priority (which does not mean that it would otherwise have been completely ignored).

corwinstephen• 14 years ago

It's not even just the Hackernews publication. It may have started here, but it spread to all kinds of other news outlets like Wired. Hell, I was even pissed off enough to tweet some shame at Amazon about it, and if I did that, lord knows how many other people did too. This was big news. I would have been surprised if they HADN'T done anything about it.

Although, them reversing the wipe purely to save their publish image is equally despicable in my opinion.

bluekeybox• 14 years ago

The story was also big on Reddit which has a large audience, and a few wrote a letter to Jeff Bezos. It is a speculation of course that Amazon had reversed their decision in response to negative PR, but I wouldn't yet call that speculation a conspiracy theory.

brador3• 14 years ago

If the writer wanted to make Amazon pay for the wipe she has certainly achieved that with her post.

My Kindles hit Ebay a few hours ago. I'm out of the Amazon digital ecosystem.

codewright2• 14 years ago

What are you replacing them with?

brador3• 14 years ago

I was already splitting my ebook purchasing between the Apple bookstore and Amazon.

From this point, ebook purchases will be through Apple or a purchase of the real book. I kinda miss the feel of a real book too so that's a nice change. If I need a digital copy, and it's Amazon exclusive, then I'll be using "other sources".

alecco2• 14 years ago

Keep them, and manage Kindle content of DRM-free books via Calibre.

donniezazen• 14 years ago

I am just surprised the way these companies work. They don't even owe as little as information to their customers and our government enable them to do that.

dkrich• 14 years ago

I'm guessing one Michael Murphy is polishing up the old resume right about now.

pasbesoin2• 14 years ago

I find the lack of transparency on Amazon's part entirely unacceptable.

(I can imagine and understand -- although not always agree with -- the desire to e.g. keep some technical aspects of fraud detection private. Beyond that, I have zero sympathy.

And even in the event of some so-called "fraud detection", we have powerful entities who on the one hand want to benefit from a "global market" while on the other hand simultaneously seeking to restrict same when doing so is to their benefit. For example, taking advantage of lower "third world" production costs while insisting upon receiving "first world" prices for their own goods.)

P.S. I've had two friends communicate that they are backing out of pending Kindle purchases, since I shared this story with them. (In case any Amazon types are browsing by here.)

podperson4• 14 years ago

It's astonishing to me how Amazon, which is more of a monopoly in many respects than Apple has ever been or Microsoft currently is, is essentially walmarting entire industries and gets almost no negative press over it. (It's even getting help from friendly congresspersons to strengthen its ebook monopoly.)

I've been forced to withdraw my $20 ebook from Amazon because I simply cannot afford to price it at $20 in the kindle store (Amazon pays the same royalty for books priced at $10-20 as books priced at $10, and it pays lower royalties than BN or iBooks). I'm not allowed to price my ebook so that I effectively get paid the same (which entails selling the book at $40 for Kindle and $20 for everything else) because that violates Amazon's "you cannot sell for less elsewhere" rules.

Similarly, Amazon sells book readers that are incompatible with rival book formats, including ePub. No-one complains.

javajosh• 14 years ago

Well, I for one was unaware of this state of affairs. It takes people like you to bring these observations into light, and to do so repeatedly, because it's important. Indeed, I would request that you write up this analysis in a blog post so that it can hit the front page of HN.

[Edit: I just realized how incredibly generic this sounds, haha. But I am a fan of investigative journalism in general, and investigations of abuses by power in particular, and Amazon is a juicy target here.]

Dylan16807• 14 years ago

Upon reading your comment I went to look up Amazon royalty information. Let me know if I got this right.

A book that is 3-10 dollars, sold in the first world, gets you 70% royalties minus a few cents for delivery. If you want to set a price over $10, then you only get 35% royalties.

So it's not that Amazon flat-out gives much lower royalties, it's that they give much lower royalties for books that cost more than ten dollars. They don't want to give you more than seven dollars per sale.

alanfalcon• 14 years ago

That's basically all true, except it's not always just "a few cents" for delivery, especially if you have full color photos or illustrations as a part of your eBook. On other platforms there is no delivery fee and no price range required to receive the 70% royalty rate. So there is a window for certain books where the Amazon rates are competitive, and of course they have the largest marketplace for eBooks so it's usually advantageous to play within those bounds.

podperson4• 14 years ago

It's ridiculous that to make more money than $7 - download charges from a book you need to go from $10 to $21. This is what Amazon wants -- it wants a bunch of books for less than $10, and it claims that it offers competitive royalties when in fact it doesn't.

jseliger• 14 years ago

>gets almost no negative press over it

They've gotten a lot of negative press—the Seattle Times ran a long, mostly negative, series of articles: http://seattletimes.com/html/businesstechnology/2017901782_a... , for instance.

The publishing industry has also been harping on Amazon for a long time.

But I think part of the reason fewer people complain about Amazon is that Amazon is providing alternatives to industries that are even worse—like publishing or music. From the consumer's side, they're also insanely convenient.

rossjudson• 14 years ago

Feels like we need an anti-trust law that automatically cancels "you cannot sell for less elsewhere". Does eliminating that solve the problem?

krichman• 14 years ago

I think it would. Then Amazon would need to be competitive about ebook delivery fees to encourage authors to lower their ebook prices.

Leszek• 14 years ago

The thing is, you're paying a premium to Amazon because Amazon is so popular and the Kindle makes it so convenient to buy ebooks, that you can hope for greater profit by simply selling more copies on Amazon, even if the per-sale profit is lower.

The "you cannot sell for less elsewhere" rule is bullshit though.

gizzlon2• 14 years ago

The "you cannot sell for less elsewhere" rule is bullshit though.

My first thought is to have the same price, but give not-so-selective "selective" discounts to people elsewhere, giving them an incentive to not buy it from Amazon.

Would that be possible?

chanux• 14 years ago

It's good to hear Linn has her stuff back but this doesn't guarantee future situations like this would have similar good endings. What I infer from 'no explanations' is it's mostly a PR plaster.

It's sad that such problems will be solved only by huge exposure to the story. Not something everyone can have all the time. Happy but sad.

doki_pen• 14 years ago

Support Policy:

If you feel that your account has been erroneously disabled, then got viral with your story, only then will we investigate your claims.

rhizome• 14 years ago

More like, "if you have trouble with customer service, please contact customer service."

tytso• 14 years ago

... and after customer service has blown you off saying that from their perspective, the case has been closed and you have no avenues of appeal, then try to make the story go viral....

sgt• 14 years ago

That's a very bad translation - although I'm still impressed because it's programmatic and the technology has come pretty far (and I am grateful to Google for providing Google Translate in general!).

So "Amazon did an about-face" actually means "Amazon did a change in direction" or even "Amazon did a 180 degree turn".

re• 14 years ago

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding you, but "did an about-face" is a good translation; it's a common English idiom: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/do+an+about-face

sukuriant2• 14 years ago

How is it a bad translation? I was headed to the comments with the intention of applauding Google for a truly incredible translation service! Reading that wasn't blocky or painful, like reading programatically translated texts used to be. Is the idea of what is said wrong? Did they make a huge mistake in any section? Or small mistakes everywhere?

As already commented, "did an about-face" is an English idiom

gizzlon2• 14 years ago

I'm not GP, but I also though "about-face" was an error.

I'm impressed as well, but there are errors like: "e-bokgiganten" (the e-book giant), "type IT consultant Linn.." (wrote the IT consultant..) and I don't think "Spread Monday blog post" is correct either? (On Monday the blog-post about .. spread) etc..

Still impressive though :)

wissler• 14 years ago

Doesn't matter to me. The fact that Amazon can break and enter into my devices with impunity is completely unacceptable. The fact that I can't back up my own purchases without hacking is completely unacceptable.

I'll continue using Kindle for free content but I'll be buying only real books unless there is very clear legislation, or a change in Amazon's technology, supporting my right to keep and control my own purchases. Amazon (and not just Amazon) has too much power here and has repeatedly demonstrated that they will abuse it.

hobbes• 14 years ago

You can backup your purchases using copy-and-paste to your hard drive. Or do you mean "remove DRM"?

I agree with your second paragraph.

yason• 14 years ago

If I were her, I would so immediately copy the ebooks that are available again, for now, then find a way to free them from DRM and close my Amazon account myself.

Then I would go lobbying for a law that would make it a legal requirement to make digitally restricted products available to the user in unencumbered format if the user's account gets terminated or if the company goes out of business. So, basically the user would buy the song/book/movie but hand over the appropriate storage to the company for as long as the account remains open. Then, if the storage gets shut down the user would still own copies of his/her files.

zizee• 14 years ago

Some people might be thinking "Well done Amazon for correcting this mistake" or "Amazon just caved due to pressure of bad press" but I am thinking that if Amazon can wipe a kindle remotely, I do not want such a device and will purchase a product which does not have this "feature".

Seriously, fuck them.

alecco2• 14 years ago

Better: buy a subsidized unit but don't buy their DRM ebooks ;) It's trivial to do.

zvrba• 14 years ago

Meta-comment: I've read the article in english and norwegian side-by-side, and I'm impressed by google's translation.

eykanal• 14 years ago

Have any native english publications covered this story? Strange that the only new source to publish a follow-up to what was a very popular story would be some random Norwegian newspaper.

Amazon reopen wiped Kindle account

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