You can now buy used Ford vehicles on Amazon

https://www.theverge.com/news/821258/ford-amazon-auto-online-sales-certified-preowned

by apparent • 8 months ago

40 101 8 months ago

freedomben3• 8 months ago

This is great news. I look forward to a day when I never have to talk to a salesperson again.

Forty-eight states have laws that limit or ban manufacturers from selling vehicles directly to consumers

Why on earth is this a law? (I mean besides the obvious lobbying efforts and likely scare-mongering from powerful auto dealers) Is there an actual reason/benefit for this though for consumers?

everdrive• 8 months ago

(I mean besides the obvious lobbying efforts and likely scare-mongering from powerful auto dealers)

This is the only reason so far as I understand it.

lordnacho• 8 months ago

You'd think Amazon would apply lobbying power to enable new car sales?

ortusdux• 8 months ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture

Kirby64• 8 months ago

These laws are anachronisms back when they didn’t want manufacturers directly selling vehicles to consumers because there was a fear (or maybe, an experience?) with manufacturers selling vehicles without any reasonable ability to get parts, repairs, etc.

Nowadays with nationwide fast shipping and the internet these aren’t really problems… but in the 1950s I could see how there would be some benefits to having a dealership near you.

SoftTalker5• 8 months ago

It was more protection for local dealers, to avoid the manufacturer coming in to a market that the dealer had developed and undercutting them.

axus• 8 months ago

Has Tesla been selling cars directly to consumers without these problems?

BugsJustFindMe• 8 months ago

Why on earth is this a law?

Generously, protecting local labor is important in an environment that demands labor for survival and where considering alternative systems of providing for people is verboten. This is a confederation-level version of protections against offshoring jobs. Whether the jobs add value or not is its own dilemma.

Arainach2• 8 months ago

Vertical integration is, in general, bad for competition and often bad for consumers. There can be benefits, but too much control limits availability of parts, confuses incentives, etc.

zer00eyz3• 8 months ago

Vertical integration is, in general, bad for competition and often bad for consumers.

This is a gross misunderstanding of what vertical integration is.

YKK zippers makes an unbeatable product because of vertical integration.

A lack of vertical integration means that you're subject to the whims of larger markets (and increased interest and costs at every step).

The flip side to this is "control nothing". Buy the building your office is in and own an asset, or get a triple net lease and then pay margin on top of that. Own your own hardware or pay AWS to have 30percent profit margins...

ceejayoz6• 8 months ago

Why on earth is this a law?

Car dealerships tend to be keystone businesses in towns; they wind up with outsized political power on the state and local level.

scrumper• 8 months ago

It stems from franchise law which exists to give franchisees a modicum of protection from adverse practices by the much stronger party in the relationship.

dragonwriter• 8 months ago

They were adopted in the mid-20th Century when franchised dealers the norm but manyfacturers would use threat (backed by follow-through if the threat wasn’t successful) of opening direct competing manufacturer-owned dealerships to coerce franchise dealers practices, to take that practice off the table.

cvoss• 8 months ago

It's true of beer, too. In a lot of states (decreasingly so), breweries cannot sell beer directly to consumers, or even retailers. I once paid for a tour of a brewery, where the price of admission also covered a souvenir glass. The brewery would then give you a few pours of "free beer". They emphasized that they were definitely not selling me any beer.

imglorp• 8 months ago

Starting today, customers can browse, finance, and purchase certified pre-owned Ford vehicles online through Amazon Autos, with in-person pickup at a local Ford dealership.

This whole thing sounds like dealership with extra steps and a middleman fee.

dawnerd• 8 months ago

Would love to see how much pressure is put onto purchasing addons from the local dealers. I remember reading people running into that when picking up their Lightnings.

rdtsc• 8 months ago

Wonder if there an opportunity there to set up distribution in the few states that don't have that law and make everything easy online - out of state registration, delivery (for a fee). The dealerships in the 48 states will probably sue the manufacturers, they are not just going to let it slide, I suspect.

geodel• 8 months ago

Agree. Dealing with Amazon customer support is such a great experience and it keeps on improving every time I reach out to them.

apparent7• 8 months ago

I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not. I remember when their customer service was truly great, about 20 years ago. Now it is not great, but still much better than car dealers, IMO.

rchaud2• 8 months ago

When did you last use their support? 15 years ago, I needed to click 1 button to chat with support instantly about a faulty iPod I bought. They issued a refund and return mail label instantly.

3 months ago, I had to navigate multiple froms and dropdowns to even reach a chat representative. And when I did, they had none of the information I spent several minutes filling out. The rep then grilled me about my order, seemingly incredulous that Amazon had sent me a "new" product that was clearly used and repackaged when I opened it (this has been common for years as Amazon commingles its own stock with that of 3rd party sellers).

blibble• 8 months ago

this has to be satire right?

I can't imagine any support experience worse than dealing with Amazon "customer support"

christ help you if you mix that with a car dealership

monooso• 8 months ago

When public transport ground to a halt during COVID, I suddenly needed a car. I bought one online via Cinch [1]. No haggling, no hassle, and it was delivered to my door a few days later.

I have no intention of entering a car dealership ever again.

[1] https://www.cinch.co.uk/

kulahan2• 8 months ago

I did the same thing with Carvana. The experience was wonderful until after I got the car. They waxed the stupid thing with the windows down. There was wax in random places EVERYWHERE in the car. I asked for money for an internal detailing (I was willing to just deal with the external part having the worst buff job I've ever seen). They offered $75 and the lady on the phone said she could get her SUV detailed for that much. In Texas.

Anyways, in the end, you can get them to do almost anything by simply saying you want to return the car. That's pretty damn expensive and something they have no choice but to honor. Still, if you don't know this trick, it's a good way for these guys to be sneaky. This would've been easier for me to deal with if I could just physically bring it in somewhere and say "give it back clean".

That being said, I also understand you have better consumer protections in the UK, so maybe things are different for you.

m4632• 8 months ago

Did you find this at the time of delivery? Or was this something you found out afterwards?

I would assume "decline to accept" is different than "return car", is that true?

captainregex• 8 months ago

I had to threaten to sue them by opting out of their time triggered arbitration clause to get them to give me the deposit back on a car they couldn’t/wouldn't deliver. Carvana sucks.

kube-system7• 8 months ago

I wish I could be comfortable doing so for such a large purchase, but there is too much variability in the quality of used vehicles and sellers have a disincentive to disclose potential issues.

I don't like buying at dealerships but I do like being able to inspect the vehicle at the same time I am signing the paperwork.

andoando• 8 months ago

Carvana has 7 day return policy no questions asked. Buy it, take it to mechanic. Return it if its no good

al_borland• 8 months ago

The haggling involved in car buying is a choice. Over the years various sellers have used “no haggling” as a selling point, Saturn for instance. But I can walk into any dealership and choose to pay the listed price without haggling.

slumberlust• 8 months ago

They have multiple avenues for haggling beyond price. Leveraging loan terms or penalizing you for cash, insisting on addons like 'safer' blinking tail lights that they auto-install on every car, the creativity never ends.

gaadd33• 8 months ago

Assuming you pay via dealership financing that is likely true but many dealerships have a different price for a car if you are paying cash for it.

Eddy_Viscosity2• 8 months ago

They are "used" cars. I hate it when marketing departments try and manipulate the language. I hate it worse when everyone else just goes along with it.

mschulkind• 8 months ago

Except generally pre-owned is short for certified pre-owned like it is here, which means you get a much better warranty than buying on the used market.

barbazoo• 8 months ago

I remember a time when it was "certified used".

patwolf• 8 months ago

Most dealership websites in the US list cars as New, Pre-Owned or Certified Pre-Owned, meaning Certified is distinct from Pre-Owned.

SoftTalker5• 8 months ago

You're paying for that warranty though. If you really want one, you can buy one yourself from one of several competing aftermarket warranty companies.

Used car dealers suck, in every way. They add zero value other than having a selection of cars in one place, and possibly a selection of lenders for financing if you need that. They also know every trick in the book to get you to pay more for the car than it is really worth.

Best way if you have a little time to do research and watch the local market is to buy a car from a private seller.

add-sub-mul-div• 8 months ago

But that nuance wouldn't allow them to get outraged about something trivial.

codingdave• 8 months ago

That is completely standard wording. Has been since the 90s.

BiteCode_dev• 8 months ago

It's doubleplusgood language and perfectly cromulent.

tclancy• 8 months ago

That doesn't undermine their point though.

SkyPuncher• 8 months ago

Not really sure what you're targeting with the language.

My guess is the "certified" part of pre-owned. It's basically just the labelling they give to lease vehicles that come back without excessive damage or wear. These vehicles generally have lowish miles, low wear on pretty much all components, and have been reasonably well kept by the leasee.

My wife and I have found certified pre-owned is sweet spot for price-to-value. We get a vehicle that's basically brand new - but with a massive cost reduction.

Spivak• 8 months ago

Pretend for a minute that this naming scheme was successful, that sales of cars called pre-owned were higher than cars called used. Neither term is deceptive, both accurately describe the situation. What this tells you is that the problem isn't the cars, it's the existing negative connotation attached to the word used. The car industry picked a blank slate term for themselves and how people feel about the term pre-owned will be in line with their feelings about the cars and nothing else. The fact that this term has been in use for a long time and still (by assumption) carries a positive connotation means that people are having positive experiences with used cars.

This to me is actually the opposite of deceptive. The used car industry took a risk by asking to be judged on their merits because pre-owned could have been synonymous with garbage in short order. There was little anchoring it to any particular connotation.

pessimizer3• 8 months ago

If you create a new term for something that there was previously a common, unambiguous term for, people's animal brains assume that there's some sort of difference between the new and old thing, even if the words literally mean the same thing (if you use the actual meaning of the words in technical or industry jargon to determine their meaning, you will usually be wrong.) In other words there's an "existing negative connotation," although you attach this to the word (is it the sound of the word or the ugliness of the letters that creates this connotation? It is a mystery) rather than to the actual thing that the old word denoted.

This is entirely deceptive, and nothing else. It is a change solely made to confuse people about the validity of their past experiences, and to sucker them into disregarding them when making very expensive decisions about their futures.

dang2• 8 months ago

We don't like euphemisms, bowdlerisms, or corpspeak either, and consider them loosely included under the word "misleading" in:

"Please use the original title, unless it is misleading or linkbait." (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html).

I've made the title say 'used' instead of 'pre-owned' now.

apparent7• 8 months ago

Sorry, I just literally copied the title, which I didn't find to be misleading. Can you help me understand what is misleading about "pre-owned"? Isn't that just a well-known synonym for "used"?

If submitters are supposed to change the wording wherever marketing corpspeak exists, there will be a lot more changed titles, and perhaps not always for the better.

tencentshill• 8 months ago

Amazon’s platform will be the middleman between the customer and the dealership

It's just a lead generator like any other. Why did Amazon choose to enter that market?

FanaHOVA• 8 months ago

Because they make $60B/yr on advertising and car sales is a very valuable ad market.

Night_Thastus2• 8 months ago

While I really like the idea of buying a NEW car direct from the manufacturer, a used car from Amazon is significantly less appealing - both for the consumer and Amazon.

* If Amazon spends the appropriate time researching into each car's history, properly inspecting and repairing any defects and working with customers if there are problems - they will not make a net profit. Not 'maybe', they won't.

* If Amazon doesn't have due diligence, people will get cars with endless problems, Amazon will be covered in bad press, and the whole thing will collapse due to low demand.

Plus, unlike buying a new car where inspection doesn't matter nearly as much - buying online gives you 0 way to really look at it yourself and take it to a local mechanic to have it inspected. (Which I am EXTREMELY glad I did, I nearly bought a car that would have been a disaster)

I suspect this effort will last maybe a year and a half at best.

Cars are bulky, heavy, expensive, and lose value quickly with age. Even new, the competition is so tight and logistics so hard that it's a nightmare. Used cars are so much worse an industry to work in.

linuxftw• 8 months ago

If people are foolish enough to buy used cars from Carvana, they'll be foolish enough to buy from Amazon too.

kotaKat2• 8 months ago

Nothing wrong with Carvana if you use due diligence. Bought an ‘18 Fusion Hybrid in mid-2019 that I was able to trace back to Avis’s rental fleet before it went unsold by Avis to CVNA into their sales pool.

(Figured at the time that the ‘hybrids’ cost more to rent, and anyone getting one as part of an upgrade would have treated it better than an econobox. Paid off quite nicely.)

It was a reasonable price at the time and I’m sure as hell glad I don’t have to go back into the used car market now with how stagnant the prices got.

zerocrates• 8 months ago

Since they go through the dealers it's probably just the dealers' existing "certified pre-owned" scheme.

kotaKat2• 8 months ago

Yeah, it’s just the normal Blue Certified process. It’s an interesting look to dig the checklists up for various CPO programs from various OEMs to see what they demand.

https://www.ford.com/cmslibs/content/dam/brand_ford/en_us/br...

gruez• 8 months ago

* If Amazon spends the appropriate time researching into each car's history, properly inspecting and repairing any defects and working with customers if there are problems - they will not make a net profit. Not 'maybe', they won't.

Given that used car dealerships have existed for decades, it's possible to do profitably. Why can't amazon?

Night_Thastus2• 8 months ago

If you're a used car dealership you can:

* Avoid paying any shipping costs, and require the car be driven to you in person

* Have a shop attached to the dealership for inspection to avoid paying a third party

* Have a person at the ground level look over the car and refuse to accept ones that are obviously junk, minimizing wasted time and money

If Amazon is literally just acting as a front-end/advertisement for Ford and has 0 involvement than most of this doesn't apply.

It's only a concern for places that act as a true online retailer, taking on all the inventory and risk associated with it.

m4632• 8 months ago

I've bought used iphones off amazon with no issue. (no other way to get a small-sized iphone 13 mini except used)

niwtsol• 8 months ago

If I go to amazon autos, I see more than just Hyundai and Ford pre-owned certified cars for sale - I see toyota, chevrolet, kia, jeep, honda, etc. I guess this announcement is an official partnership with Ford corporate, but I assume smaller dealerships could have integrated before this.

apparent7• 8 months ago

Notably only in a few cities, at present.

bradlys• 8 months ago

This didn’t seem to work with a bunch of other startups out there. Carvana, shift, beepi, etc. These startups were all the rage in 2016.

I bought my car off of Shift (wonderful experience in 2016) for such a low price that my credit union heard the price I was buying it for and immediately went, “oh, honey, I’m so sorry. We can’t give loans for a salvage vehicle.” She looked at the carfax and was dumbfounded how it had a clean title, no accidents, etc. and was not just cheaper than blue book for a dealer but cheaper than for a private party by a significant margin.

knowitnone3• 8 months ago

Last thing I bought from Amazon are 36" wide shelf which was not 36" wide. There is SO much shit on Amazon it's ridiculous.

You can now buy used Ford vehicles on Amazon

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