We Need a Warby Parker for Mattresses

http://priceonomics.com/mattresses/#industry

by rohin • 14 years ago

193 167 14 years ago

FWIW, Warby Parker was not the first web-based retailer to undercut traditional eyewear sales, nor are they the cheapest. They do seem to have the best PR, though.

storborg• 14 years ago

They also have by far the best customer experience. Their website is fantastic and fulfillment is lightning-fast, neither of which can be said about the competitors that I've tried (framesdirect.com, zennioptical.com, glasses.com, 39dollarglasses). It's not just PR.

Unfortunately, their range of styles is still very narrow, which is presumably dependent on their manufacturing capabilities.

lesterbuck• 14 years ago

I used zennioptical.com in 2008 and was very happy. Lacking any fashion sense, I ordered some computer glasses that I hoped would completely disappear on my face - #804811 titanium shape memory rimless, single vision, high index of refraction, with various coatings delivered for under $40. After two years, the nose bridge broke and I took it around locally to see about a repair. The local repair guru quoted me $45 to solder them back together and he started filling out the order, when I stopped him and said I paid less than that for the whole pair of glasses. Turns out Zenni also sells the frames separately, $14.95 for that item, and anyone can install the old lenses into the new frames.

streptomycin2• 14 years ago

I didn't mean to imply that it's just PR, but they do undoubtedly have the best PR out of all those companies.

Zombieball• 14 years ago

Excuse my ignorance, I haven't even heard about Warby Parker until this article. How long have they been around (my quick Google searches have failed me)?

I have heard of ClearlyContacts.ca (I am Canadian), is Warby Parker comparable?

mhb• 14 years ago

http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=warby

nchlswu• 14 years ago

They're comparable in that they send glasses online, but Warby's differentiator is that they manufacture frames (so they handle the whole process end to end) and offer a home try on kit. You can order X amount of glasses to try on at home.

They basically started a very customer friendly model that other online glasses retailers didn't offer at the time of founding.

EDIT: Basically, customer experience.

hornbaker• 14 years ago

Ditto is coming on strong, and has some way-cool tech: http://ditto.com. Warby is nice and all, but their selection is limited to just acrylic frames of their own design.

ryanwaggoner• 14 years ago

Like any startup idea, there will be objections. Shipping mattresses is expensive, people want to lie on them first, mattresses require research and development spending to develop, a mattress purchase only happens once a decade, etc. All these objections might be right, but they all sound surmountable.

They might be surmountable, but that doesn't make this a better opportunity than a lot of the other opportunities out there, especially for a startup. The costs involved with disrupting the mattress industry as a manufacturer AND retailer are better left to a larger company. Like IKEA, as the article itself pointed out.

stcredzero5• 14 years ago

> a mattress purchase only happens once a decade

This is a cultural artifact. We've reached a point in manufacturing technology where this should no longer be true.

> disrupting the mattress industry as a manufacturer AND retailer...Like IKEA,...

The most comfortable mattress I've ever slept on: A Sultan Fonnes mattress, with an egg crate foam topper from http://www.foambymail.com/ on a platform bed, no box springs. You can leave off the topper and save about $60, if you like, and you wind up with the equivalent of a great firm futon that never bunches up. The combination for Queen is well under $400, including taxes and shipping.

My plan for instant "satisficed" sleep furniture: Buy a cheap platform bed, a Sultan Fonnes mattress, and 3 eggcrate foam toppers. Keep the combination with the topper you like best and sell the other two. No going to the store needed at all. It could all be done through the mail and by delivery in most of the US.

I am not associated in any way with IKEA or foambymail.com except as a customer.

s_baby2• 14 years ago

After developing neck+back pain and doing many hours of research this is the solution I arrived at as well. I use an Ikea firm foam bed with a 2.5" memory foam on top. This ends up giving the support of a "medium-firm" many doctors advocate for. For back sleeping, this is by far the most comfortable bed I've owned.

eru4• 14 years ago

Have you ever tried putting a slatted frame underneath your mattress? In Germany you usually put the slatted frame in a bed, but I found you can also just put that on the floor (plus mattress) to have a very low bedstead.

novaleaf• 14 years ago

> This is a cultural artifact. We've reached a point in manufacturing technology where this should no longer be true.

I hope you are not implying what I think you are.

If you are: rabid consumption is fucking this world into oblivion. Just because we can produce/buy more easier/faster, does not mean we should.

"There is no such thing as sustainable growth"

ksherlock• 14 years ago

I'd think a better model for disruption would be Priceline. Name a price and let local mattress stores supply it.

My Luxotica/Ray Bans were made in Italy and (on sale) aren't any more expensive than the Chinese made Warby Parker sunglasses.

debacle2• 14 years ago

When I bought my last mattress, it was a relatively painless experience, and the cost was incredibly reasonable (considering a rough estimate of what the manufacture labor might have cost).

What kind of mattresses are people buying, and what sort of retailers are they going to, where this seems like an immensely extortionist industry?

jameshsi• 14 years ago

Interesting post. Perhaps on the incumbent end, the equivalent would be "We Need an OPEC of Mattresses."

startupfounder• 14 years ago

We need a Warby Parker for Diamonds!

1. Oligopoly market structure CHECK 2. Insane gross margins CHECK 3. Opaque and misleading product naming CHECK 4. Expensive distribution through unpleasant channels CHECK CHECK CHECK

qq662• 14 years ago

The problem is that a diamond is inherently a basically worthless rock, so its retail value is already a figment of the public's imagination. Blue Nile is the closest that exists today, but they are not that disruptive since the retail channels already have lots of competition -- it's the supply (De Beers) that's monopolized.

rom16384• 14 years ago

Another approach to disrupt that market is to grow the diamonds like Gemesis does, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemesis

MartinCron12• 14 years ago

The real disruption will come in the form of widely available manufactured (not mined) diamonds.

I used to think of diamonds as basically worthless rocks, until I went shopping for an engagement ring stone and looked at them under the jeweler's microscope, and thought "I want to be dressed from head to toe in these things". With mass-produced diamonds, that may become a reality.

itsprofitbaron2• 14 years ago

No. There shouldn't be a Warby Parker for Diamonds.

Sure there are services like BlueNile etc but they're nothing like a Warby Parker for Diamonds.

Diamonds are bought, not because of what they are but what they represent.

The whole point of diamonds is to capitalise on what they're representing rather than their actual worth.

Their value is created through the likes of "diamonds are a girl's best friend" which is why the price is high for them. Hence the advertisements have been developed around the whole perceived value of diamonds ala. "diamond's are a girls best friend" because when you present a woman with a diamond you're presenting her with a promise - a promise that you will look after & take care of her. Which is something that most women want.

MartinCron12• 14 years ago

Imagine if the cultural norm went from spending a lot on an expensive diamond where the money went to a textbook evil corporation to spending much less on a cheap manufactured diamond of higher quality and donating the difference to the charity of the lady's choice.

petenixey2• 14 years ago

True but actually less significant than you think. With the caveat that the diamond should not be insignificantly expensive the reactions to engagement rings fall into one of two categories

a) the girl is a "nice girl" and is more than happy that the finacee got a ring that was even better valuable (I've one singaporian friend that actually had her fiancee take his ring back and buy another one from singapore - not because she wanted a bigger one but she wanted him to get a better deal (I think it ended up being a bigger diamond but that's not what she was angling for))

b) the girl wants to have a bigger ring than her friends in which case it's also a win.

The actual value of the ring is more of a "hygiene condition". Once it costs "enough" then to someone who actually cares (most girls are just happy with getting a hubby) what actually matters is what it's perceived to cost and a fiancee who can deliver bigger, delivers bigger!

niggler3• 14 years ago

Nice little history on Diamonds (and why trying to disrupt that market is incredibly difficult):

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/print/1982/02/have-you-e...

melvinmt• 14 years ago

Wow, one of the best articles that I've read in a while. Thanks.

antidaily• 14 years ago

And where are the flawless manufactured diamonds Wired featured 8 years ago?

dminor2• 14 years ago

I bought my wife's engagement ring from them, but sadly they are no more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_Diamond

jcampbell1• 14 years ago

Bluenile.com does this, and is successful. Of course they only solve the unpleasant distribution, and misleading product naming issues. They saw the problem of slimy sales tactics and gouging in the diamond business and fixed it.

markerdmann• 14 years ago

I just bought a mattress a few months ago, and I agree whole-heartedly with this post. My solution was to buy a foam mattress from bedinabox.com, which I would say is the Warby Parker for mattresses.

medell3• 14 years ago

100% agree. But if you must buy a mattress go to SleepCountry, they price match anything.

bryanlarsen• 14 years ago

How does price matching work? One of the major problems with mattress stores is that everybody sells different mattresses -- they're 99% identical, but tiny changes are made to justify a different name and prevent comparison shopping and price matching.

s_baby2• 14 years ago

Match according to spring count and type. The profit margin at a place like Mattress Firm is ~50%. They are hungry for a sale and will bid for your purchase.

medell3• 14 years ago

Yes that is part of the whole scam which I learned a lot about during my last mattress purchase. SleepCountry has a catalog cross referencing the types of mattresses from other companies that are very similar if not exact matches to what they carry. I ended up price matching a Bay One Day Sale mattress that was $799 (normally $2000, of course that is inflated too) and they gave me a similar mattress in the showroom that was on sale for $1399. Very happy with it. I gave my friend my receipt a month later and he got the same deal. You know SleepCountry is not making much from this sale but I was really happy with their service so I'm a customer for life... or until they get disrupted!

Fluxx• 14 years ago

I'm not sure if you can count this as a startup, but I bought my King-sized Sleep Innovations (memory foam) mattress with Amazon Prime for $530. And if I wanted the less-think 10" one, it would be $400.

http://www.amazon.com/Sleep-Innovations-12-inch-Memory-Mattr...

The damn thing was ~100lbs in a giant box, and I got it shipped to me free. It's super comfortable and well worth the money - remember you sleep for like 25% of your life.

Mattresses seem like less of a specialty-item than eye glasses, so I wonder if big online retailers like Amazon can just cut out the middle man and service 80-90% of customers?

ktsmith3• 14 years ago

I got my last mattress from Silver State Industries (nevada prison manufacturing) for under $500 (Cal King). It is more comfortable than the Serta that I had originally spent around $1,500 on.

mmanfrin2• 14 years ago

I think I'd find the guilt of knowing my mattress was made by slave labor to be a heavier price than the $1k in savings.

jacknews• 14 years ago

LOL, did you find a rock hammer stuffed inside?

twoodfin2• 14 years ago

The problem is that many people like to lie on a mattress before they buy it. Sure, that's a little silly since lying on it for a minute or so is unlikely to capture the experience of tossing and turning on it for a night, but it's clear that it's a competitive advantage to let the consumer compare a few models in a physically direct way.

Warby Parker can get away with the similar consumer requirement for glasses because glasses are small, light and easy to ship. They can send you half a dozen samples and let you pick the one you want. Not so easy with mattresses!

The car market has this problem as well (in addition to others, like the protectionist rackets that the dealerships have set up).

MartinCron12• 14 years ago

I used to think the same thing about shoes, but Zappos has managed to crack that with their super-easy returns and two-way shipping.

Is two-way shipping with easy returns possible for mattresses? I would be willing to try it if I never had to deal with a mattress salesman again.

muraiki3• 14 years ago

My wife and I almost got a Sleep Innovations mattress, but in the end we felt that we couldn't buy a mattress that we hadn't had a chance to try out. We both like a very firm mattress, which can be difficult to find.

While it's true that lying on a mattress for a few minutes won't tell you whether it's the best one or not, it sure did help us rule out many mattresses. We ended up getting an Ikea mattress, which turned out to be quite nice.

stcredzero5• 14 years ago

> The problem is that many people like to lie on a mattress before they buy it.

One can get all of the benefit of this by selling a single mattress, but also sending 3 or 4 foam mattress toppers to choose from. Correctly designed packaging would let the customer re-roll the topper, then use a vacuum pump to collapse the rolled topper back into a compact form for return mailing. (The pumps would be cheap and disposable, so wouldn't be returned.)

Using a system like this, one could become the Zappos of mattresses. There would still be a restocking and return fee for the mattress, but one could let the customers exchange and try toppers to their heart's content, so long as they took good care of the merchandise.

xn• 14 years ago

I bought one from Costco, and didn't like it. They gave me a refund, and the choice to either donate it to charity or have them come pick it up and take it to the dump.

rscale• 14 years ago

I believe that entrepreneurs could do well, generally, by looking for opportunities in industries that are dominated by private-equity players.

If an industry is overweight PE, you can bet that the market analysis looks fantastically attractive (competition isn't too fierce, suppliers have little power, buyers have little power, not many substitutes, and little perceived threat from new entrants). If a clever entrepreneur can render that last condition false and enter that market, that entrepreneur has the opportunity to shrink and consolidate a $huge market that's owned by PE players into a $smaller market that is owned by the entrepreneur.

PE controlled competitors will, generally, not be particularly agile, because PE tends to capture value by leveraging the heck out of a currently viable business model. It's a model that works really well as long as base assumptions hold true, but startups can ruin that for them.

mattmiller• 14 years ago

How do you find industries dominated by PE?

rohin• 14 years ago

Make a list of the top 20 PE funds (KKR, Bain Capital, TPG, etc) and then check out their portfolio from their website or WSJ articles.

heretohelp• 14 years ago

Analysis, research, work.

The stuff you ostensibly do when you're not on HN.

notJim2• 14 years ago

Could someone explain for the… ahh… more financially naïve among us why private equity is the important signifier here? It seems like what rscale is talking about are markets which are opaque due to companies that have enough clout to force that inefficiency (e.g., by restricting information or making product comparisons impossible.) Why or how is that coordinated with private equity?

marklabedz2• 14 years ago

At the risk of putting words in rscale's mouth, its not that PE creates these conditions or that PE is even necessary for these conditions. Instead, PE tends to find and play in highly attractive industries (See Porter's 5 Forces for a classic view of "attractiveness"). PE involvement in an industry can be a good signal...

winterchil2• 14 years ago

This is a brutal generalization so take it with some salt. I also don't subscribe to the "all PE guys are evil and unnecessary" philosophy but with just this teaser description it would be easy to think I support it. Anyway, on to your answer.

Private Equity firms typically want to run their portfolio companies as profitably as possible. This means cutting down service, R&D, technology, etc as lean as possible without damaging the existing product or brand.

It also rules out lots of room for innovation as the companies chief reason for existing becomes generating enough profits to pay off the individual company's outstanding debt.

Why is there debt? Private Equity firms will buy a company, streamline its operations, increase its profits, and demonstrate to banks/investors that it is financially stable. Once they've done that they raise lots of debt against the promise to pay off that debt with the future, dramatically increased, profits. They use the debt to pay themselves a bonus for taking over the company and fixing it.

Why not wait and just pocket the company's profits over time? Well, that's how Warren Buffet does it (sort of), but by loading the company with debt they get their bonus sooner increasing the IRR for their own investors.

edit: phrasing.

tptacek3• 14 years ago

Private equity firms buy companies to make them more profitable and then flip them. They are essentially committing themselves to the incumbent role in Christiansen's "Innovator's Dilemma". When a market is dominated by risk-averse incumbents, it is probably ripe for disruption.

joshu• 14 years ago

huh. clever thought.

rdl3• 14 years ago

PE is huge into firearms right now (Cerberus set up Freedom Group which owns Remington, Bushmaster, etc.) http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/27/business/how-freedom-group...

If I were not in tech, the firearms industry would be really attractive.

nazgulnarsil2• 14 years ago

>Unlike military counterparts like automatic M-16’s, rifles like those from Bushmaster don’t spray bullets with one trigger pull. But, with gas-powered mechanisms, semiautomatics can fire rapid follow-up shots as fast as the trigger can be squeezed. They are often called “black guns” because of their color. The police tied a Bushmaster XM15 rifle to shootings in the Washington sniper case in 2002.

Has nothing to do with the article, but they just can't resist.

techcofounder• 14 years ago

I completely agree! I recently went shopping for a mattress at Sleep Train and they admitted that they mask the model numbers of their mattresses so you can't find them online for cheaper. Someone please build this.

MartinCron12• 14 years ago

they mask the model numbers of their mattresses so you can't find them online for cheaper

This practice predates looking online for cheaper. They all obfuscate model numbers so you can't do comparison shopping or "price matching" in the real world. It's shameful.

latchkey2• 14 years ago

I bought a keetsa mattress years ago and love it. The op bought one too. It seems like the best thing to do here would be to just continue to support keetsa as they really are doing a good job on pretty much all angles. Keetsa is the Warby Parker here.

jsiegz• 14 years ago

yep, mine is keetsa as well. keetsa = warby parker without the hype or e-commerce focus (but maybe there's opportunity there). the salesman actually suggested i should get a lower end mattress than the one i thought i was going to buy. great company.

lyime• 14 years ago

+1 on Keetsa. Love the memory foam mattress. After a full day of coding/work I love coming back to this mattress.

MartinCron12• 14 years ago

While you're disrupting the mattress industry, please consider re-thinking the King form factor. Changing the aspect ratio by just a few inches would make it perfectly square, which allows for you to rotate 90 degrees as well as flip, so the whole thing would wear out more evenly.

As an extra bonus, this would make putting sheets on easier as there's no wrong way (short of inside-out, I guess).

niggler3• 14 years ago

Wouldn't you then have to worry about fitted bedsheets and comforters?

MartinCron12• 14 years ago

Absolutely, you would have to get new bedsheets, comforters, and beds to support the new form factor, but if it means replacing the mattress every n*2 years instead of every n, I'll come out ahead in the long term.

stevesearer• 14 years ago

Your comment has inspired me to make a 'sheet disruption' company called Who Gives A Sheet. Sheets will be reversible and for every set of sheets purchased, we'll give a sheet to someone that needs one.

MartinCron12• 14 years ago

I will be your first customer. Egyptian Cotton, high thread count, bright white. Thanks.

petenixey2• 14 years ago

And yours for me to make one specialising in waterproof ones called "Three Sheets to the Wind"

mnicole• 14 years ago

Love the visual of a crowd of happy customers, children included, shouting "We gave a sheet!"

brigade• 14 years ago

Even before that, start making mattresses flippable again.

But a flippable + rotatable mattress means it could last decades, so of course it won't happen.

MartinCron12• 14 years ago

I was just discussing this with the owner of an independent mattress/furniture store in Seattle (Bedrooms and More in Wallingford). He is now refusing to carry non-flippable mattresses because he finds them to be too wasteful.

Dove2• 14 years ago

That's pretty cynical. High-end mattresses are generally intended to last decades--and whether they need to be rotated depends on the material.

The mattress I own now is non-flippable, and came with a 20 year warranty.

akldfgj2• 14 years ago

With strechy jersey sheets with deep sides, it doesn't matter if you apply them 90-degrees rotate.

MartinCron12• 14 years ago

The last time I had stretchy jersey sheets, they didn't hold up well at all. I'm wondering if that's a problem with them in general, or if I just bought crappy sheets.

nisbet• 14 years ago

The Author shouldn't have credited Dornob for the first picture of a dreamer, but the original project, which was done by students: http://www.behance.net/gallery/Dreamers/313618 Wasn't hard to find out - Dornob linked to it. So should everybody who uses other's images.

MattRogish• 14 years ago

"By the time a customer buys a mattress, it costs them ~74% more than the production cost of the product."

I'm not arguing that the mattress industry isn't ripe for disruption, but very rarely is value delivered directly related to the cost of production.

COGS is often difficult to accurately estimate (how much do you allocate R&D and other overhead?).

An iPhone 5 may only contain $110 worth of silicon, but the value delivered is a lot more than the raw material cost. Jony Ive's salary represents a tiny fraction of each iPhone, but his design and influence represents a significant chunk of the profit.

msandford• 14 years ago

Someone there couldn't math very well.

First you mark up 50%. Okay, a $100 cost mattress gets sold at $150 wholesale. Then the retailer marks it up 100%, to $300 total. That's 200% of the production cost, not 74%.

What they meant to say is "production cost represents only 26% of the final cost of a mattress" but totally flubbed it.

ChuckMcM• 14 years ago

Clearly there is a distribution challenge (high transportation / storage costs) but I like the idea of disrupting them.

latchkey2• 14 years ago

Keetsa has done a great job of helping this issue. They are foam mattresses and they suck the air out of them and stuff them into a surprisingly small box. It actually takes about a month for them to fully reinflate once unpacked.

twoodfin2• 14 years ago

One advantage that the eyeglass market has is massive tax favorability in the U.S.

I believe it's still the case that prescription eyeglasses can be bought with pre-tax dollars under a "use it or lose it" flex savings plan. I assume vision plans, which often include large purchase credits for eyeglasses at least biennially, are also tax deductible benefits.

The result is often relatively price-insensitive consumers who "have" to spend $200+ on glasses lest they not be taking full advantage of their benefit.

johnzimmerman• 14 years ago

A couple of years ago I was looking for a Tempur-Pedic style mattress, but didn't want to spend thousands for one. After doing a lot of research I found Isoform mattresses. They are only available through the mail and have a 90-day return window if you're not happy. It would be very expensive to ship numerous mattresses, but the trial of one with no commitment to buy is pretty good.

Spooky232• 14 years ago

There are all sorts of outlets for reasonably priced, what you see is what you get mattresses: Sam's Club. Costco. Ikea. You can get a decent name brand mainstream mattress for ~$500.

The problem with mattresses is that it's a product where you need a salesman. There's a bunch of different products that look similar, but have significant differences. You want to match the customer with what they want (or tell them what they want) so that they don't return the thing.

Plus, there are some inherent logistical differences between a pair of eyeglasses that can be dropped in an envelope and shipped to anywhere in a day or two. Distribution and warehousing is expensive, the product needs to be delivered quickly (and picked up if the customer is displeased).

There is a market for discount mattress sales outlets on the internet -- but just as online furniture and appliance outlets haven't "disrupted" the market, mattresses online are unlikely to either.

JPKab• 14 years ago

"There are all sorts of outlets for reasonably priced, what you see is what you get mattresses: Sam's Club. Costco. Ikea. You can get a decent name brand mainstream mattress for ~$500."

I hear you, but who says that $500 is a reasonable price for a mattress? I'm sorry, but looking at the raw materials involved (don't even get me started on the frickin foam ones that don't even have springs: I'm looking at you Tempurpedic) it's clearly still a racket at the Sam's Club prices.

If it is the raw materials, and not a rip off, then why do solid foam rubber mattresses cost more than mattresses containing moving parts and metal springs?

unohoo• 14 years ago

moving parts != comfort, which is paramount when it comes to mattresses. For me (and a lot of people I know), having springs is actually an issue. The springs wear off, the mattress begins to sag and not to mention the back aches. So its not as simple as -- simple foam mattresses should cost lower just because they have less raw materials than a spring coil one.

aaronblohowiak• 14 years ago

I have purchased my last two mattresses from Overstock, and recommend people do the same (and read the comments on all of them, preferring those with more reviews...)

http://www.overstock.com/Bedding-Bath/Memory-Foam-Mattresses...

akldfgj2• 14 years ago

Why is it obvious that memory foam is cheaper per cubic inch than a spring assembly?

Spooky232• 14 years ago

The market says that's a reasonable price, and Tempurpedic is serving the premium market segment. Why does a half gallon of milk with a generic store logo cost 10% less than the name-brand milk from the same exact dairy?

Anything less is either refurbished (ick) or one of the foam ones from Amazon/Overstock. The online foam mattresses are as low as $350, because they can compress the foam and make it light enough for UPS Ground.

Personally, I don't like foam mattresses. If i didn't know that, dropped $350 on a mattress from Amazon, I'm stuck with some bizarro return process, since it's no longer compressed foam that can be readily shipped!

larrys2• 14 years ago

" dropped in an envelope and shipped to anywhere in a day or two"

Not to mention the ease of returning those eyeglasses should they not be to the customers liking.

Dove2• 14 years ago

it's a product where you need a salesman.

I found the articles at http://www.us-mattress.com to be helpful enough that I could make an informed decision.

cloudwalking• 14 years ago

What is a "Google-esque margin"?

fowkswe• 14 years ago

The article hints at this, but Ikea solves all these problems. They have a small set of easily discernable mattress lines that are priced extremely well.

benatkin• 14 years ago

This needs "Mattresses" added to its database: http://nonstartr.com/

silverbax883• 14 years ago

Having worked for one of the major mattress firms, there are truths in the article, but also some serious mistakes.

The pricing structure, where they hide the models by using different names across retailers, is 100% true. They absolutely do that to prevent price shopping.

The markup math is off. Mattresses are a high margin business, but most of those mattresses you see in specialty retailers are not built until someone buys one. You see, those mattresses are custom to the customer - from the tick (stitching pattern, which creates a firmer or softer surface) to the foam density, to EVERYTHING. It's like ordering a car where the car is measured to a specific person's height, weight and engine preference. You can imagine what a returned mattress is worth. Pretty much nothing. The margins have to cover all of that. Are the margins good? Yes. Would a small company be able to cut their margins to make one-off custom mattresses and compete? ...maybe.

Finally, there are retail outlets - Costco, Ikea, that buy from those mattress companies in bulk and sell generic mattresses much cheaper.

So, yeah, there's some market there but not as rich as some might think.

jackalope• 14 years ago

A used mattress is worth about the same as a used pair of underwear. This has nothing to do with custom options.

silverbax883• 14 years ago

That's what I meant, I just assumed people would understand that a custom-ordered mattress was 'used' once it has been taken home and returned no matter whether someone slept on it or not.

kinofcain• 14 years ago

What happens in a specialty high-end mattress store has very little to do with the bulk of the market: people buying mattresses at Macy's or one of the numerous regional mattress chains. I don't have any experience in the super-high-end, but have worked with the low-middle-high end that you get going to a "mattress store". Those models are definitely not built-to-order, they're sitting in a warehouse waiting to be delivered, even the $4k+ ones that are trying to compete with the custom shops. For the bulk of mattresses the margins mentioned in the article are conservative.

What you're absolutely correct on, however, is that the cost of building a mattress doesn't represent the cost of running a mattress business.

However, that's exactly what makes it ripe for disruption: streamline the rest of the business model and loot the manufacturing margins.

silverbax883• 14 years ago

Those mattresses sitting in a stack are bulk orders negotiated by the retailers. But you can still walk in and order something they don't have in a back room. Those are built and shipped. But that's not true for all mattress companies, just some.

knes• 14 years ago

Someone should do a Warby Parker for Wheelchairs.

GFischer• 14 years ago

Filed under the "to do" section :) .

More seriously, there are tons of niches that are underserved by the HN crowd and that need some disruption.

Patio11's talk has inspired me a lot:

http://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/03/26/software-for-underserved...

tomjen3• 14 years ago

Maybe instead of focussing on selling mattresses you should focus on some sort of price comparison machine where you can enter what characteristica you want to (must have memory foam, must be this size, must be x, y and z) and then have the machine find close matches and display the variours prices? That way it won't matter if they fix the name, since you don't compare the mattresses on names, but on features.

raldi• 14 years ago

If you attempt this, I suggest you make a deal with a motel chain: When a customer checks into a room, they discover a little sign on the bed. The sign says, "Like this mattress? Get a brand-new copy delivered to your home for $X00 by visiting mattressr.com and entering bed code MEDIUMSOFT-23."

oostevo• 14 years ago

Some hotels do something similar -- chains sell the mattresses that they use in their hotels to consumers.[1]

[1] http://www.whotelsthestore.com/item.asp?curr_item_id=5

MartinCron12• 14 years ago

Westin makes a lot of fuss about how great their beds are and how you can buy the whole kit for your home.

http://www.westin-hotelsathome.com/bed.aspx

I was a little disappointed when I stayed in a Westin a few years ago, the bed was nice, but didn't live up to the high expectations.

callmeed• 14 years ago

I think you mean mattress.ly

geoka9• 14 years ago

Incidentally, $120 for a frame from Warby Parker (which is only "a couple of pieces of plastic and metal") is still too high IMO.

mikegirouard• 14 years ago

They also include prescription lenses as well.

eastdakota• 14 years ago

The core problems of the mattress industry (which are not present in eyeglasses industry) are the high costs of shipping and expensive warehouse costs.

Given these, Bed In A Box (http://www.bedinabox.com/) started with what seemed like it could be a potentially disruptive business model. They make-to-order mattresses (will even make custom sizes) and ship Tempurpedic-like memory foam mattresses directly to you via UPS. They suck all the air out of the mattresses so the boxes they come in are reasonably sized. Inside the box, there's a backpack-style sack which makes the mattress easier to carry. I hauled a Queen-sized mattress up four flights of stairs easily.

I've purchased two mattresses through them and they are high quality and extremely comfortable. The first purchase they were easily 50% the cost of any quality mattress I could find elsewhere (including Costco, Sams Club, etc.), especially if you factored in the cost of delivery. I was surprised that when I went to buy another mattress from them their prices were markedly higher.

I wonder if consumers were concerned that the low prices indicated low quality (not the case in my experience) or if they were unable to get the volume to sustain a low margin, high velocity business.

AJay17• 14 years ago

I've had a memory foam mattress from BedInABox for a few years now and I love it!

dirtae• 14 years ago

I was a big fan of The Original Mattress Factory when I lived in Pennsylvania. They manufacture their own mattresses and sell them direct to consumers.

http://www.originalmattress.com/eliminating-the-middle-man

Unfortunately they don't have a presence on the West Coast.

daveman• 14 years ago

Like glasses, it's an interesting disruption opportunity due to the sheer size of demand. Just about 100% of the population sleeps on a mattress. It's hard to find other industries with so much penetration of demand and such inefficient competition.

These days it doesn't seem like outbound distribution is too big of a deal (many mattresses are shippable in rolled or compressed-box form), it's the reverse logistics that are tricky. Once the genie is out of the bottle, good luck getting it back in. I'd love to be able to try out a mattress, like Zappos shoes or Bonobos pants, and return them for free if I'm not 100% happy. Maybe someone needs to invent an easily-compressable mattress so I can purchase online with total confidence.

kbrower• 14 years ago

I am working at a company that is trying to do just that.

http://saatvamattress.com/

abnerg• 14 years ago

Say more sir. I like the non-toxic spin, pricing seems good, and yet, by the bios on your "about us" page it seems like you are very marketing oriented. That's fine, but perhaps enlighten the mass here on how you struggle or over come some of the objections raised above? Personally, I despite mattress retailers, but I also want to lie down on the thing before I commit to spending 30% of my life on it.

larrys2• 14 years ago

For reference, here is a publicly traded retail mattress seller and it doesn't appear from their profile that they manufacture but only resell:

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=MFRM+Key+Statistics

Take note of the margins, this isn't Microsoft sized here.

They have almost 900 stores in 27 states.

The article therefore is based on the idea of manufacturing your own mattress and selling web based. Unfortunately this would require warehouses around the country and a manufacturing facility in this country to make the mattresses. Although I'm not sure, I would imagine it would not be cost effective to ship a mattress from China (although I guess Mexico is possible) because of the size and weight. So this is not selling sunglasses or fashion eyewear which can easily be manufactured overseas as well as easily shipped (and returned).

ry0ohki• 14 years ago

Is it so bad that an industry has high margins? $500-1000 doesn't seem that expensive for a once every 10 years purchase. Mattress salesman gotta make a living! Seems very hypocritical while we make 90% margins on software.

pkulak• 14 years ago

It's really easy to spot the industries that have ridiculous margins; just find the shops that stay open forever, yet seem to make about 1-2 sales a day. I've seen mattress stores that seem to be able to sustain one full-time employee and about 20000 square feet of showroom on a couple purchases a day. Some with sunglass stores.

BroNamath• 14 years ago

I just got 5 frames from WP in the mail for "in home try on." The quality of the glasses are sup-par. They feel like frames you would find at the gas station. Yes the frames are stylish, but for anyone who has bought glasses their entire lives, you would know right away why these cost $95. There is a company that is the WP of mattresses: Ikea. The product is cheap and of low quality.

uptown• 14 years ago

Warby Parker's name has crossed my radar a few times in the past month, but I know nothing about what makes them special. Can somebody please enlighten me, because even after looking at their site, I still don't get what the big deal is. Then again, I've got 20/15 vision, and don't wear glasses, so I'm not their target market.

stretchwithme• 14 years ago

Wouldn't it be cool if a mattress came in 8 pieces so you can easily move it and flip it, and rearrange or even replace saggy sections?

I'm sure the need for the entire thing to respond to your body the way it does probably prevents such a thing, but that sure would make it easier to own one.

olalonde• 14 years ago

I'm starting to wonder if priceonomics.com shouldn't pivot to become a full-fledged data driven publication. They have been publishing some amazingly high quality content lately.

We Need a Warby Parker for Mattresses

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