4-7-8 Breathing

https://www.breathbelly.com/exercises/4-7-8-breathing

292 122 1 year ago

Click the ying yang looking icon to get an explanation

4-7-8 Breathing The 4-7-8 technique involves inhaling for 4 counts, holding for 7, and exhaling for 8. This pattern is repeated several times. Developed by Dr. Andrew Weil, it helps reduce anxiety, manage stress, and promote better sleep by triggering your body's natural relaxation response and slowing your heart rate.

sxp2• 1 year ago

For those who have a scientific interest in breathwork, I suggest James Nestor's _Breath_. It goes into the biological aspects with a minimum amount of woo. And for those who want a crash course, I recommend getting a getting a pulse oximeter or other real time heart rate tracker and experimenting with various breathing patterns (Google [box breathing], [resonance breathing], etc) to watch your heart rate change. It was one of the first biofeedback experiments I did and still an impressive demo of the power of breathwork to this day.

yusina• 1 year ago

Or just ... breathe normally? Your body can handle this pretty well on its own.

What's the point of this hyper-optimization? (Unless it cures a condition obviously.)

sxp2• 1 year ago

It's useful to manipulate your internal states. E.g, intentionally slow down your heart rate when in bed and trying to fall asleep. Or intentionally raise it when you want to feel more alert without using caffeine or doing jumping jacks in the middle of the office.

reverendsteveii• 1 year ago

unless it cures a condition

cures isn't the right word, but it lets you set conditions in your body once you've practiced for a bit. slow, deep breathing can help you remain calm and focused. inversely, quick, shallow breaths lead to a bit of hyperoxia and can help bring your emotions to a more intense state as well as basically "banking" oxygen for short bursts of physical activity. It's about being in control of your body and mind, and gaining that control through experimentation and observation. There are already a couple examples of the science behind breathwork in this thread but I feel compelled to point out that breath work is the foundation of meditation and practiced meditators have shown truly incredible control over their bodies and emotions.

The primary source of benefits from breathwork is believed to be controlling the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal hormonal axis in the body. These three glands are basically in charge of the body's stress hormones, and those stress hormones are how the body broadcasts to all of its constituent parts what state the body is in and leaves each part to respond appropriately. So in someone with a hyperactive HPA axis you're going to see the immune system overrespond because the body is getting ready to deal with wounds that could become infected, you're going to see the cardiovascular system overrespond to prepare for phsyical exertion, you're going to see the digestive system underrespond because now's not the time to break down that sandwich there's a goddamned bear chasing me, all sorts of ways your body optimizes for emergency mode when the HPA axis is active.

Thing is, what triggers emergency mode has changed a lot as we've developed as a species. Used to be the aforementioned bear. A bear is an emergency, but it's a 5 minute emergency. After 5 minutes it's over and either you survived it or you didn't. Now our lives are so complex and weird that people have emergencies that last decades. Trying to pay the rent with a minimum wage job is arguably an emergency that lasts your entire adult life and the HPA axis is responding to very real fears of having no food, nowhere to live, no social status and other things that matter to us on a biological level. If the HPA pathway remains too active for too long all of those downstream systems I mention earlier start malfunctioning because they've been running permanently in a mode that was only ever intended to be temporary. The ability to consciously take control of that by regulating your breath and focus doesn't just make you feel calmer, it allows those systems that have been redlining for a long time to take their foot off of the gas. It can lower your blood pressure and heart rate, which lowers the risk of heart attack and stroke. Its linked to abatement of symptoms in things as disparate as lupus, irritable bowel syndrome, adhd, dementia and fibromyalgia. Not to mention that people report being happier, less stressed and more engaged with their lives and loved ones with 20 minutes/day of just sitting quietly and paying attention to how their breathing works without actually trying to alter it at all.

tldr - it's linked to relief in several conditions

most of my info (prolly all of it tbh) comes from Dr K's lectures at healthygamer.gg - full disclosure, i don't work for them, i don't get paid by them, they don't know i exist but i am a member who has worked through a couple of their courses. They also have a youtube channel if you want an opportunity to check out some of the info for free.

laserbeam• 1 year ago

The correct way to recommend to the scientifically inclined to learn about breathwork “without the woo woo” is to point to a meta analysis. The first one I found suggests that yeah, breathwork can lead to lower stress but that most studies feel biased and can overhype most other benefits.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/366645304_Effect_of...

To me, breathwork falls under that category of positive exercises that can give a boost in life. I would never overhype “the power of breathwork” to anyone. Just like going to the gym, yoga, dancing, and most other similar activities.

joleyj• 1 year ago

There should probably be an audible cue to go from exhaling to inhaling no?

shermantanktop• 1 year ago

Agree! I could do this with my eyes closed if not for that. A simple "bip" noise or something.

cheekyturtles6• 1 year ago

There is an option under cue sounds, if you're using a phone I think you might need to take it off silent :) Let me know if that works.

bix6• 1 year ago

https://www.breathbelly.com/

This link is better imo because it also shows the standard box alongside the 4-7-8

dmos62• 1 year ago

I use Breathly. It's great visually and audibly. And, you can use a custom timing. It also has a few other presets, including box breathing. And, it keeps the screen on, though I wish it would work when my android is locked (in my pocket).

https://github.com/mmazzarolo/breathly-app

cjauvin• 1 year ago

Great app, just tried it, works very nicely and has just the right set of things it should have, thanks!

dartharva2• 1 year ago

There's also Medito (closed-source but nonprofit), which has all sorts of guided meditations.

JohnKemeny3• 1 year ago

I have used 3-7 breathing to prepare for diving. Inhale 3 seconds, exhale 7 seconds, for at least a full minute, followed by hyperventilating 5 times.

Lets me hold my breath for 4–5 minutes if I don't move too much.

semi-extrinsic• 1 year ago

You are probably well aware, but always worth highlighting the risk of shallow water blackout and death if you do this wrong and unsupervised. Always have a dive buddy.

Someone I went to school with almost died from this. Was in a coma for 48h and spent a month in hospital afterwards. And that was in a public swimming pool where he was discovered quite quickly.

cyberax• 1 year ago

Be VERY careful about hyperventilating!

It effectively removes the normally leftover carbon dioxide from blood, but it does not oxygenate blood significantly more than normal.

The end result: if you hold your breath after hyperventilation and start doing physical activities, you can get dangerously deoxygenated blood. Without the usual feeling of asphyxiation that is normally triggered by high CO2 content.

Deoxygenated blood + brain = fainting. Which can be lethal when swimming.

JohnKemeny3• 1 year ago

Thank you for this information, I wasn't aware of the danger associated with this.

peripitea4• 1 year ago

Can you elaborate? As others are saying this can be extremely dangerous. Normally I wouldn't just reiterate other comments but if it might save a life can't hurt to be sure.

JohnKemeny3• 1 year ago

Hyperventilating is probably a too strong word. I just draw deep breath 3 to 4 times before going under.

ayhanfuat• 1 year ago

For me box breathing worked better (inhale 4 seconds, hold 4 seconds, exhale 4 seconds and hold 4 seconds). I use a little app called One Deep Breath. It had great effect on my blood pressure and anxiety.

kdamica4• 1 year ago

There are lots of different ways to do this. The important thing for anyone wanting to get started is just to get started and not get hung up on which one you're doing. Box breathing, Wim Hof method, etc, are all great and any breathwork is better than none.

For an intro to the topic, James Nestor's Breath is excellent.

ulnarkressty• 1 year ago

Every time I try breathwork (be it box or x-y-z) I feel that the intervals are too long - by the time I finish breathing out my brain goes into panic mode and the next breath is not enough to compensate. I find them the exact opposite of relaxing.

kdamica4• 1 year ago

I also do not find breathwork relaxing, and it's not always meant to be. The Wim Hof method in particular will definitely amp you up and cause some strange feelings. But if you are really having a bad time with it and want to continue, just find some interval that works for you. There is no one right answer for how to do this.

On a personal note, I realized through breathwork that I was taking deep breaths incorrectly for most of my life. Maybe it's my anatomy, but when I take a deep, fast breath, my nostrils constrict and limit the airflow. It was a real breakthrough for me when I learned to focus on my diaphram while flaring my nostrils. The breaths I can take are so much more satisfying.

lkuty• 1 year ago

I like to start breathing using my own rythm and then after a while the intervals widen naturally and I could then synchronize my breathing with one of the well known patterns but usuallly I don't. If I try to start with e.g. 4-7-8 I have the same problem of going into panic mode and then I am not relaxed at all and heart pulses go up instead of going down.

agumonkey• 1 year ago

I tried imposing structure but whenever I feel you like you say you do, I just revert to the mean. The rule is to not stress your system / mind above a certain threshold.

codethief2• 1 year ago

Your urge to breathe comes from your brain's sensitivity to CO2, which can be trained. In fact, as is also discussed in the book the grandparent mentioned, high sensitivity to CO2 might cause everything from having short breath to full-blown panic attacks.

In other words: Lowering your CO2 sensitivity and learning to breathe slowly by doing breathwork is a skill worth acquiring. Your brain going into panic mode in a comparatively relaxed breathing mode could be an indication that your CO2 sensitivity is rather high.

nmeofthestate• 1 year ago

Yes I always end up yawning/having to breathe through the mouth occasionally when trying to do this kind of thing. Perhaps I just don't get enough air through the nose.

arendtio• 1 year ago

You should probably start by calming down first, such as lying on your back. Breathe as slowly as you want to for 2 minutes, and then start counting to see how slow your breath is.

jcul• 1 year ago

Just shorten the intervals. It's not a big deal. When I did yoga training in the pramayama (breath work) they started with quite short intervals, and the retention without air in the lungs was skipped at first.

It's completely fine imo and I don't think there's a need to get hung up on details like hitting a prescribed 4-4-4-4. 3-3-0-3 would be ok too.

hn_throw20253• 1 year ago

You can begin with an easier pattern…

Breathing through the nose, in for a count of three and out for five, then repeat.

As long as the outbreath is longer than the inbreath, you will get some effect.

Could also try relaxing first by massaging the Vagus nerve. An easy way to start with that is to massage in a circular motion the skin area in front of the Tragus (front skin flap) on each ear.

You can combine that with the measured breathing for added effect. They both stimulate the Parasympathetic nervous system.

avtar• 1 year ago

Pages 9 - 14 of the following pdf go into more detail about this aspect of softening breathing mechanics:

https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/b68ec804-ba42-4194-b405-d1f...

Don’t a lot about the author. I just came across the doc on Reddit and the practical parts of what’s described checked out.

spiffytech• 1 year ago

A breath coach told me that breathing on a timer stresses some people out instead of calming them down. E.g., people who have experienced trauma. Submitting their bodily functions to an outside force's control can be very stressful.

Her approach adapted breathing patterns to listen to your body's internal signals for when to breath in and out.

clocker3• 1 year ago

I ended up in the same situation with this 4-7-8 Breathing. Actually with this one the problem for me is that there is no interval between cycles. After first cycle the next inhale starts immediately, and from the visualization you don't know exactly when the first cycle is going to end unless you keep the count yourself. I think after exhale there should be a gap of maybe 1 to catch up. INHALE-HOLD-EXHALE-CATCHTUP - inhaling for 4 counts, holding for 7, exhaling for 8, and catch up 1.

lacrosse_tannin• 1 year ago

It's supposed to be ratios, not literal seconds. The app should be adjustable for you small lunged people.

oarfish• 1 year ago

is Nestor's book really excellent? I didn't make it more than halfway through because nowhere could i find any references for all the outlandish claims that are made. A lot of them are implausible anyway, and so far as I know the actual science does not support all these theories put forth in the book. If a thing is made out to be the cure to everything, it's likely the cure to nothing.

would be happy to have some good references.

this isnt to say that breathing exercises are not beneficial, but this book left me scratching my head.

noahmasur• 1 year ago

Basically the last third of the book is a bibliography. It's filled with tons of scientific references.

kdamica4• 1 year ago

The most outlandish thing I can remember was about chewing hard gum to fix your teeth, which seems kind of crazy but could be true. I don't remember breathing being posited as a cure to everything, and I also remember plenty of discussion of various studies. It seems quite believable to me that improper breathing causes all sorts of problems. It's possible I'm too credulous, or that you're too incredulous. Who's to say.

kriro• 1 year ago

This is a decent critique: https://geeky.yoga/2021/12/20/breath-book-review/

DontchaKnowit• 1 year ago

Iant wim hof dangerous?

kdamica4• 1 year ago

You can definitely pass out but that's why you don't do it standing up or driving. And of course if you're doing ice baths there are plenty of ways to screw that up.

But overall if you're laying down doing wim hof breathing, I'd say no.

And of course individuals might have circumstances or conditions that do make it dangerous. They always tell you not to do it if you're pregnant, for example.

dartharva2• 1 year ago

After a few cycles, the counter just completely stopped at the "Hold" phase! Damn good prank but could potentially harm someone gullible.

PretzelPirate• 1 year ago

I used it and the timer stopped when I was in the Hold command. Am I allowed to exhale?

I think the timer should be a multiple of the time to complete one full cycle, ending on an exhale.

bravoetch• 1 year ago

How does it matter what part of the cycle it stops on? Maybe better to show the timer is done. Maybe they can add a disclaimer for people that aren't sure if they should keep breathing when they're not being told to.

doakes• 1 year ago

Same thing happened to me

russellbeattie• 1 year ago

Am I allowed to exhale?

It stopped for me too. I hope someone answers this soon.

deadlypointer• 1 year ago

I have been holding back my breath for 2 days now, it still shows hold.

weehuy• 1 year ago

I think it's because the wss connection drops out, least that was what was spammed in my console logs.

cheekyturtles6• 1 year ago

Sorry, it should be fixed now. The timer being multiples of a full cycle is something I'm going to add very soon, it annoys me a little bit too while using.

cheekyturtles6• 1 year ago

Okay, the exercise shouldn't finish during a breath cycle anymore :)

babyent• 1 year ago

Nice!

Is there something wrong on my end? The IN animates fully, which is a nice visual cue. The HOLD remains static which is nice. But the OUT does not completely animate and it throws me off.

Tmpod• 1 year ago

Looks fine to me. The circle grows when you're inhaling and shrinks when you're exhaling.

lbj3• 1 year ago

Easily one of the worst UI's I've seen since 2020.

Timing the initial in/exhales is tricky, because the circle contracts, not to its center, but to a nearly invisible (on my screen at least) smaller circle in the middle. No visible counters.

After a while, it just says "Hold". No indication that we're done. And I sit there, almost dying for 2 minutes before realizing, that it's done some kind of quiet-quitting routine on me.

Other than that I enjoyed it.

jensenbox• 1 year ago

Same - I kept holding and holding. I am now writing this from my grave.

lbj3• 1 year ago

Hillarious :)

cheekyturtles6• 1 year ago

Yes, apologies, the centre circle colour scheme was a terrible choice. I've changed it to something more visible. It looked like network errors were blocking the main thread so to speak, that shouldn't be an issue anymore.

I'm glad it's only the worse you have seen since 2020 though, I take that a little as a compliment because frontend design is not my strong point. This is just a fun little thing I made to help me relax before meetings etc.

lbj3• 1 year ago

I'm glad you're taking my feedback in stride. To be honest I regretted the harsh tone as soon as I hit submit. Can I blame it on oxygen deprivation? :)

cubefox4• 1 year ago

This may be a stupid question, but why do we need to exercise breathing? We do it all the time anyway, shouldn't we be pretty good at it by now?

knodi123• 1 year ago

not stupid at all! the idea is that practicing conscious breathing techniques can have effects on your stress levels and cognition and such. it's not that you're learning how to breathe, but rather how to breathe for a desired effect.

cubefox4• 1 year ago

Stress relief, thanks, that makes sense.

Almondsetat• 1 year ago

People run, walk, and do all sort of things wrong even though they "practice" them daily

cubefox4• 1 year ago

To be fair, we also practice breathing at night.

vitro• 1 year ago

For me, it was playing a musical instrument (transverse flute, then shakuhachi) that showed me that I really don't know how to breathe deeply with my diaphragm. Or, that I wasn't aware of it at all, now my breathing is more conscious, and I tend to focus on it many times, for example, when I'm just walking on the street. Concentrating on your breath is a great way to stay rooted in the present and become aware of your thought processes. Breathing is magical :)

cubefox4• 1 year ago

keybored• 1 year ago

I use my mind all the time. I’m not a meditator.

peripitea4• 1 year ago

You don't do breathing exercises to get better at breathing. It's for your brain.

amelius• 1 year ago

I see one problem in the UX. When breathing out you cannot see where the circle will stop so it is difficult to mentally plan this phase of the cycle.

penguin_booze• 1 year ago

Also, there's no 'ding' at the point the breath-out stops and the next breath-in cycle begins.

nmstoker2• 1 year ago

Yes, this is the big flaw in an otherwise nice little app. If this were fixed you could use it without looking.

dmoy• 1 year ago

If you want breathing exercises that go way into the specialized deep end, you can always pick up the sport of 3p rifle. You'll get incidentally very good at calming via breath, because of the tight feedback loop of holes-must-go-closer-to-the-center

See e.g. Reinkenmeier describing breath work in

standing: https://youtu.be/dHsG3GU9_PY?si=qlaLrSfKLCeiCgl4

prone: https://youtu.be/5odRbYSbDIk?si=joBeFyyUrwBvQ7bk

Just general: https://youtu.be/JJ3zXuFsrfk?si=xdQ5NY0cHfK89CCg

The general points (deep from diaphragm, lean back, relax shoulders, etc) also carry over to other discipline like music (wind instruments at least).

Liftyee• 1 year ago

As a smallbore prone beginner I hadn't made this connection yet but it makes a lot of sense. Time for some deeper investigation...

hankchinaski• 1 year ago

I feel the 4-7-8 is more natural than box breathing the length seems to align more with the natural breathing without constraining it to fixed length. I feel like exhaling takes usually longer than inhaling

old-gregg• 1 year ago

I feel the opposite. Especially the part about NOT breathing for 7 (!) seconds, which doesn't feel naturall at all. Something like 4-2-5 would have been much closer to my natural. To me the benefit of this thread is the comments recommending other apps/methods.

londons_explore• 1 year ago

Unless you take really deep breaths, I feel like this is just going to end up with a slight oxygen deficiency...

hn_throw20253• 1 year ago

That’s how it works.

__turbobrew__• 1 year ago

Unless you take really deep breaths

That is the entire point

peripitea4• 1 year ago

Get a cheap pulse oximeter and try it yourself if you're curious. It will not cause your oxygen levels to change in any meaningful way barring some very serious health issues.

mef51• 1 year ago

Plum Village (a Buddhist community founded by Thich Nhat Hanh) has a free app with hours and hours of different kinds of breathing and other types of meditation. They also upload meditations regularly on their youtube.

This web page also has some good resources and breathing meditations. https://plumvillage.org/mindfulness/mindfulness-practice

Highly recommend

mistrial9• 1 year ago

ok certainly this is a high quality source BUT breathwork should be done with supervision of a practitioner that has some sense. Like swimming (?) this ordinary activity can do great damage in relatively rare situations, or someone trying to do "extreme" practices without guardrails.

ethersteeds• 1 year ago

Your position is that breathing practice is too dangerous to attempt unsupervised due to risks equivalent to drowning while swimming?

While I don't doubt there's a way to breathe so wrong that it has negative effects, I'm sceptical.

But I wouldn't think twice about swimming alone, so maybe I live on the edge.

vonnik5• 1 year ago

I made a simple app inspired by Richie Davidson’s research that teaches people how to change their state with breath.

https://breathing-trainer.replit.app/

laweijfmvo• 1 year ago

I wonder how much is the specific technique vs. the fact that something like 4-7-8 requires you to pay attention to and focus on your breathing? Have their been any studies where participants were asked to do tasks while also box breathing etc?

joemi• 1 year ago

I wonder the same thing too. Especially since there are all kinds of different techniques that people recommend. And because the ideal length of time for the different phases must surely vary from person to person, since it's a physiological thing and everyone's body is different. It really seems to me (disclaimer: I'm a layperson) like the important thing is just focusing on measured breathing, not the exact one-size-fits-all measure.

dndn1• 1 year ago

People say that it's a practice.

A few years ago I was determined to practice, and it was hard, and then it became easy, auto-relaxing, like a cheat.

I lost that practice and now it's hard again.

I think GP is right to question technique vs. attention - I think we don't know much about the answer.

But a point I recall in Nestors book is that there isn't really a lot of scientific study on breath - there is much more study on specific diseases, and e.g. teeth have a full profession of study and development that the everyday act of breathing doesn't have (even though these might be highly related!).

<Opinionated> Some of the best references about breath today are not scientific, but written in the oldest books that survived in different cultures - and anyways, how much does the specific mechanism matter?

Watch this space though - science is catching up! </>

pete762• 1 year ago

I think the important thing is only that you exhale longer than you inhale. Inhaling activates SNS, exhaling PNS, the latter is for relaxation. So the more you can tilt that ratio towards exhaling while still breathing comfortably the better

amai• 1 year ago

I had better experience with the 4-7-11 technique: inhale for 4 seconds, exhale for 7 seconds, repeating for 11 minutes:

https://github.com/mmazzarolo/breathly-app/issues/73

smalio• 1 year ago

For anyone wanting something portable, I stumbled across this iOS app a while back:

https://apps.apple.com/us/app/box-breathing-meditation/id673...

Nothing fancy but it works. Been using the watch app during stressful meetings (nobody notices you're doing breathing exercises). Has all the standard box patterns plus some custom options.

clocker3• 1 year ago

Nice app! Wish there was a small interval between the cycles for catchup. After first cycle the next inhale starts immediately, and from the visualization you don't know exactly when the first cycle is going to end unless you keep the count yourself. I think after exhale there should be a gap of maybe 1 to catch up. INHALE-HOLD-EXHALE-CATCHTUP - inhaling for 4 counts, holding for 7, exhaling for 8, and catch up 1.

signa11• 1 year ago

from the website '... Developed by Dr. Andrew Weil, ... ' most certainly not. yoga practitioners have been doing this / similar exercises for quite a while now.

nprateem• 1 year ago

The Android app Prana Breath is the best I've found for setting breathing ratios.

WuxiFingerHold• 1 year ago

Not a fan of apps like this, tbh. First, most of us need to learn proper diaphragmatic breathing, which is *not* belly breathing. Then just sit still without any "cosmic" sounds or timer-apps and bring awareness to the breath. Force nothing, just observe. Calmness and relaxation go hand in hand with letting go and surrender.

HEagle2• 1 year ago

This is from Indian Hindu text Hathayoga and known as Pranayam not the creation of Dr Andrew You should give the credit to the right text Patanjali Yoga Sutras . Again this should be practiced under a qualified Teacher

HEagle2• 1 year ago

Why the comment removed I said this breathing is in ancient Hindu scripture Patanjali Yoga Sutras???

specialist• 1 year ago

I have chronic pain. I have the bad habit of holding my breath.

I've learned some different mindful breathing techniques. Very helpful. While I'm doing them.

But what about the rest of the day? How do I improve my breathing while I'm not paying attention?

My initial goal is consistent 6 breaths per minute. Keep breathing, in & out, in & out.

I'm looking for tools (feedback mechanisms) to monitor my breathing. Especially when I'm holding my breath.

Am noob, so I don't know the sciences. My understanding is that inferring breath from tracking heart rate variability works pretty good during sleep. (FWIW, my Apple Watch 10 says I average 8 bpm at night.)

I'd appreciate any tips, links, recommendations. I'd happily wear a device, just to get started.

4-7-8 Breathing

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