Brazilian court orders suspension of X

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/article/2024/aug/30/elon-musk-x-could-face-ban-in-brazil-after-failure-to-appoint-legal-representative

by mmaia • 2 years ago

196 349 2 years ago

theguardian.com

eatonphil• 2 years ago

The decision imposes a daily fine of R$50,000 (£6,800) on individuals and companies that attempt to continue using X via VPN.

Fining even users is a bit surprising.

blurbleblurble• 2 years ago

How can a court arbitrarily impose fines on users like this?

Fabricio202• 2 years ago

The goal is that it's a scare tactic. There is no technical way that these fines could be imposed at large, outside of say, people outing themselves publicly or similar. This is the same wording that was used when they blocked Whatsapp.

exe342• 2 years ago

collaborating with a law breaker in contempt of court.

bubblesnort• 2 years ago

They can't. I can easily use a Brazil endpoint to establish a tunnel elsewhere and browse X, formerly Twitter. I suppose they could try fining the VPN service provider. (But even then they won't be able to prove what's going on.)

marcosdumay5• 2 years ago

There's a lot to say about the Brazilian Supreme Court abuses of power.

And to be complete on the context, I expect it to have teeth.

IG_Semmelweiss12• 2 years ago

They can't. A thorough explanation of the applicable law, point by point, that demonstrates that what you are saying is complete fantasy:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39966382

Why they could: The ruling socialist party is allowing the judge to go on a rampage because the ruling class has too many skeletons in their closet to mount an effective defense against the opposition. They hope they can just play dead during this mess - but if history is any guide, the judge will come after them later.

outside12343• 2 years ago

Probably not going to be enforced, but just the same sort of an own goal.

Should have kept the focus on Elon Musk breaking the law.

purple_ferret• 2 years ago

Well we'll see how much teeth this fine based on how much Glenn Greenwald (who can't resist ranting on twitter) winds up owing.

Ironic he abandoned the US citing its freedom laws only to wind up in this situation.

mikrotikker5• 2 years ago

Well him and his husband were endlessly targeted at points of entry to the US as retaliation for Glens reporting on Snowden. So he's not wrong is he?

hintymad3• 2 years ago

Fining even users is a bit surprising

Not really. Using VPN is illegal in China. The police can put you in jail for using VPNs. Of course, there are very few cases like this even though many people use underground VPNs. This is typical behavior of an authoritarian state: the government reserves the rights to punish you when the situation is right.

6nf2• 2 years ago

VPNs are not illegal in China. About a third of people in China use VPNs and the govt is fine with VPNs unless you're using it to break the law.

IncreasePosts2• 2 years ago

Can anyone speak to the motivations of this judge?

Does he have a valid/legal/moral point under Brazilian law with attempts to ban those accounts on X? Or is he just a toady for da Silva?

outside12343• 2 years ago

Yes - there is a law that you need to have legal representation in Brazil and Musk is just flouting the law.

So shutdown it is for Musk

IncreasePosts2• 2 years ago

That came after the judge's order to block the accounts. That is a secondary issue, not the primary one.

On that topic, can you speak to the judge's orders to freeze the bank accounts of X's legal representative, even after she had resigned? What's the deal there?

nomdep3• 2 years ago

shutdown it is because he didn’t agree on collaborating with a tyrant. Would you do it?

cowsup• 2 years ago

The core facts are: Brazil demanded information regarding Brazilian users, and believed it was in their right to do so. X believed that the requests did not comply with Brazilian laws, and refused. Neither side yielded, so X closed up shop in Brazil, and, as a result, Brazil is blocking access to X.

Fabricio202• 2 years ago

There is actually more to this here, it was not just information about Brazilian users, the request was actually to shadowban (block without notifying the users) specific accounts. Some of those accounts happen to be political opposition (actual politicians too) to this judge and his party in general. I believe twitter or musk himself leaked all court documents when this request came in.

Twitter/X closed shop because, after stating that they would not comply with these requests, the judge threatened to jail every Twitter/X employee in brazil in retaliation. So to avoid putting these employees/people in danger they chose to immediately close all offices.

Something similar happened in Argentina with twitter as well I believe, and in that case they relocated most of the employees and their families via political asylum in Brazil at the time, if i'm not mistaken.

jrflowers12• 2 years ago

Musk has been in a feud with this particular judge for a while now.

This article covers the beginning of the fight

https://apnews.com/article/brazil-musk-x-twitter-moraes-bef0...

And this one is an update on how both sides are acting kind of ridiculous

https://www.techdirt.com/2024/08/29/elons-standoff-with-braz...

perihelions2• 2 years ago

A judge that gets in a "feud" with a litigant, for any reason, is totally unfit to be a judge.

"Judicial temperament" is how I've heard lawyers describe the ideal.

prvc• 2 years ago

He appears to be really mad.

SiempreViernes4• 2 years ago

Elon is yeah, he's posting AI images of the judge on twitter like it's a macho move.

virgulino7• 2 years ago

"People who use VPN to access X will be subject to daily fines of US$8,900"

Edit: Thanks for this user https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41404325 for posting the court order and bringing this new information:

Apple and Google must remove all VPN apps from their stores!

Apple and Google must DELETE all VPN apps already installed on users' phones!!!

https://apnews.com/article/brazil-musk-x-suspended-de-moraes...

narrator• 2 years ago

I think he's just making it up as he goes along now.

facorreia3• 2 years ago

In Brazil, a Justice of the Supreme Court has the power to impose fines on people and companies that violate the law. In this case, federal law #12.965.

virgulino7• 2 years ago

It sure looks that way! He has just issued a new court order backtracking on the removal of VPN apps from stores. But the fine still stands: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41405776

marcosdumay5• 2 years ago

Wow!

I had to check with local news, because I couldn't believe it. It checks out, he did impose the fine. (It's R$50k if somebody is as uninformed as I was.)

consumer4514• 2 years ago

That is deeply messed up. Wow, that's nearly $9000 USD.

sva_3• 2 years ago

Is it normal that a judge can impose such blanket fines on users?

Natsu6• 2 years ago

This guy is the head of the STF, the highest court in Brazil, so he's kinda doing an "I am the law" bit here.

That said, I do think that judges in Brazil can have a larger investigative role due to the different legal system that does not happen in other countries with more separation of powers to prevent exactly this sort of thing.

matheusmoreira6• 2 years ago

This is Brazil. That guy is a judge-god-king. Whatever he writes on a piece of paper becomes law. Saddest part is even on HN you will find brazilians supporting everything he does.

cute_boi• 2 years ago

This is why side loading feature is important. Government shouldn't decide what should I do as per their whims.

threatofrain• 2 years ago

That won't stop you from being fined $9k USD!

guhcampos6• 2 years ago

The text is weird. It kind of looks like they meant to write something else entirely.

The order does say Apple and Google must take down the VPN apps, but the way it's been written makes me think it was intended to order VPN apps to make Twitter/X unavailable, but someone misunderstood it or poorly expressed it.

Of course you can't expect judges to understand technical terms very well, but this guy has been dealing with tech long enough I feel like they should know this VPN text is bullshit.

kgeist• 2 years ago

Pretty hardcore even by the Russian standards. People aren't fined for using VPN here. That's some next level.

jauntywundrkind4• 2 years ago

Let's see what happens when Google refuses to comply!

Not gonna happen. But it should, if this is the order!

itsdrewmiller2• 2 years ago

Wow. The VPN piece of this ought to be the nut graf. Wild overreach.

bufferoverflow• 2 years ago

And banning a social media platform that millions use is not?

matheusmoreira6• 2 years ago

I expected the fine but he actually ordered remote removal of VPN apps from user devices? That's pretty fucked up if true. Wow

dannyphantom2• 2 years ago

I uploaded the ruling to the Internet Archive along with a copy of the document pushed through Google Translate

https://archive.org/details/Brazil-Court-Suspends-X/

hintymad3• 2 years ago

Wow! Day by day, I appreciate more and more how precious the liberty and freedom we have in the US.

And shame on Canada and UK!

joaogui1• 2 years ago

What did Canada and UK do?

virgulino7• 2 years ago

THIS JUST IN: Judge Moraes has backtracked on the removal of VPN apps from stores and phones. He has just issued a new court order.

But the ban and the fine of US$8,900 for users who use a VPN to access X-Twitter still apply!

guywithahat2• 2 years ago

This has been a bad week for Democracy/freedom of speech

outside12343• 2 years ago

All Elon needs to do is have a legal representative in Brazil for his commercial venture.

He chose this.

yonaguska• 2 years ago

The courts threatened to arrest his legal representation if he didn't comply with their demands to take down accounts accused of spreading misinformation and hate speech. So Elon closed all offices in Brasil. You think he should risk having an employee thrown in jail?

rafaquintanilha2• 2 years ago

Because the Supreme Court arbitrarily threatened the legal representatives, and Elon didn't comply. There is no legal process whatsoever, nor the regular mediums have been used. It's all arbitrary without the due process. Even a legalist would need to concede that the law hasn't been followed in the first place.

bestatsiege_013• 2 years ago

According to X the Brazilian Court threatened the legal rep with imprisonment, then after they quit the court froze the bank accounts of said rep anyway.

If that is true it strongly biases me towards believing X is in the right.

Those are astonishingly authoritarian actions.

https://twitter.com/GlobalAffairs/status/1829296715989414281

robertlagrant6• 2 years ago

I don't really understand the pro-authoritarian stance.

pr337h4m• 2 years ago

Nah, the Brazilian government will lose this round. X is not going to cave, and the government doesn’t have the technological capacity to quickly spin up their own Great Firewall.

ein0p3• 2 years ago

I bet China would be happy to help. It also cracks me up that people on this site were almost entirely in favor of a TikTok ban, but when it’s someone else’s government doing what amounts to the same thing then they’re “heading down a dark path”. Could folks please make up their minds and not treat the US as though it’s exempt from the “dark paths”?

schleck82• 2 years ago

The average person doesn't know what a DNS is and isn't willing to pay for a VPN. Society isn't a tech bubble.

NomDePlum6• 2 years ago

In what way? Musk decides what's OK and not OK on twitter.

Twitter isn't a platform to promote democracy, it promotes what Musk wants.

Twitter has turned into hot garbage. For years my feed was pretty clean as it's almost exclusively tech. Gave it up recently as it was clogged with right-wing conspiracy, odd videos and random made up AI young women randomly following me occasionally.

aftbit• 2 years ago

In the way that Brazil has ordered Apple and Google to delete VPN apps from users' phones?

yummybear• 2 years ago

Don’t forget unsolicited porn and videos of soldiers being blown up

hereme8885• 2 years ago

That's ridiculous. You think Elon Musk goes around reading people's tweets and deciding what he wants or not? Or trained an AI model to only allow content that suits him?

The guy literally gets community-noted every once in a while. It's free speech.

inglor_cz4• 2 years ago

It is not just about X. A nation of almost 200 million was deprived of mobile VPN use by decision of a single person.

Wytwwww6• 2 years ago

Sure, I can't really argue with any of that. How is it even remotely relevant in this case though?

Georgelemental5• 2 years ago

If you don’t like Musk’s platform, feel free not to use it. Nobody is forcing you to. But if you try to lock me in a cell when I decide to use it, you are attacking my freedoms.

diegoholiveira6• 2 years ago

In what way? Musk decides what's OK and not OK on twitter.

Before Musk, others were doing the same, but on the other side of the political spectrum from where Musk is now. Nothing new.

VerminOctopus15• 2 years ago

I find the conflation of democracy and freedom of speech strange. They are entirely different things.

TMWNN• 2 years ago

The absence of one always leads to the absence of the other in the long run. The USSR constitution is one of many such documents by authoritarian nations that guarantee freedom of speech in considerable detail.

fuzzbazz• 2 years ago

How can you even have democracy without freedom of speech?

How can you freely choose who to vote without free exchange of information?

throwaway872675• 2 years ago

The same judge that is responsible for X's suspension ordered Apple and Google to take down VPN apps from their app stores as well.

https://web.archive.org/web/20240830201851/https://www.conju... (Page 49 and 50, document is in Portuguese)

Brazil is heading down a very dark path.

ddtaylor2• 2 years ago

For anyone curious:

    Proton VPN
    Express VPN
    NordVPN
    Surfshark,
    TOTALVPN
    Atlas VPN
    Bitdefender VPN

There are some pretty well known VPNs that are NOT on that list. Private Internet Access (PIA) for example is absent. Sure, it's used more for torrenting than anything else, but it's one of the most popular VPNs.

I thought maybe PIA just doesn't operate in Brazil, but they actually have a specific page dedicated to it:

https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/vpn-server/brazil-vpn

Maybe that VPN is already illegal somehow in Brazil?

throwaway872675• 2 years ago

The listed VPNs are just examples. The order to take down VPN apps affects every VPN provider.

matheusmoreira6• 2 years ago

Everything this judge hates is illegal. Only their complete technological incompetence can save us.

virgulino7• 2 years ago

Thank you very much for posting this document.

From what I'm reading, it also orders Apple and Google to DELETE VPN apps already installed on users' phones!

(I think this has been done in the past, in Brazil)

walterbell2• 2 years ago

Microsoft and Apple operating systems include native VPN clients capable of connecting to many commercial and enterprise VPNs. Some routers and mobile hotspots include VPN clients, over which mobile phone traffic can be routed.

Arbitrary traffic can be tunneled over SSH to a low-cost VPS. Web browser extensions can tunnel traffic over SOCKS proxy. Tor/Tails can route traffic globally, without VPN.

Other network arms races: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41396206

codedokode2• 2 years ago

VPN protocols are easy to recognize and block using DPI unless they masquerade as legitimate traffic.

btilly2• 2 years ago

Are computer VPN apps also banned?

How are they planning to handle remote employees whose employers use VPNs?

throwaway872675• 2 years ago

The document makes no mention of any desktop OS, so computer VPN apps should be safe.

Zezinho• 2 years ago

That's not what is written in the document. VPN apps are compelled to block access to X in Brazil.

throwaway872675• 2 years ago

CNN Brazil and Folha de S.Paulo both can back up my interpretation of the court order.

https://web.archive.org/web/20240830223541/https://www1.folh...

https://web.archive.org/web/20240830223743/https://www.cnnbr...

The specific section about removing VPNs from apps stores is quite unclear, I'll give you that, but factoring in how that section is structured, it's safe to say it's meant to be an order to remove VPNs from app stores.

dannyphantom2• 2 years ago

Thank you for the link.

I uploaded the ruling to the Internet Archive along with a copy of the document I pushed through Google Translate (which may not be perfect).

https://archive.org/details/Brazil-Court-Suspends-X

IN VIEW OF ALL THE ABOVE, given the necessary legal requirements, fumus boni iuris – consisting of the repeated, conscious and voluntary failure to comply with court orders and failure to pay the daily fines applied, in addition to the attempt to not submit to the Brazilian legal system and Judiciary, to establish an environment of total impunity and “lawless land” on social networks as well as
Brazilians, including during the 2024 municipal elections, the periculum in mora – consisting of the maintenance and expansion of the instrumentalization of X BRAZIL, through the action of extremist groups and digital militias on social networks, with massive dissemination of Nazi, racist, fascist, hate speeches, anti-democratic speeches, including in the period leading up to the 2024 municipal elections,
I DETERMINE:
(1) IMMEDIATE, COMPLETE AND INTEGRAL SUSPENSION OF THE OPERATION OF “X BRASIL INTERNET LTDA” in the national territory, until all court orders issued in these proceedings are complied with, fines are duly paid and a legal or natural person representing the company in the national territory is appointed in court. In the case of a legal entity, its administrative representative must also be appointed. The President of the National Telecommunications Agency (ANATEL), CARLOS MANUEL BAIGORRI must be notified, including by electronic means, to IMMEDIATELY take all necessary measures to implement the measure, with this COURT being notified within a maximum of 24 (twentyfour) hours.
(2) THE SUMMONS, to be complied with within 5 (five) days, and must immediately notify the court of the companies (2.1) APPLE and GOOGLE in Brazil to insert technological obstacles capable of making it impossible for users of the IOS (APPLE) and ANDROID (GOOGLE) systems to use the “X” application and remove the “X” application from the APPLE STORE and GOOGLE PLAY STORE stores and, similarly, in relation to applications that enable the use of VPN ('virtual private network'), such as, for example: Proton VPN, Express VPN, NordVPN, Surfshark, TOTALVPN, Atlas VPN, Bitdefender VPN; (2.2) Which manage backbone access services in Brazil, so that they insert technological obstacles in them capable of making it impossible for users of the “X” application to use;
(2.3) Internet service providers, represented by their Presidents, for example ALGAR TELECOM, OI, SKY, LIVE TIM, VIVO, CLARO, NET VIRTUA, GVT, etc..., so that they insert technological obstacles capable of making the use of the application “X” unfeasible; and (2.4) That manage personal mobile service and switched fixed telephone service, so that they insert technological obstacles capable of making the use of the application “X” unfeasible
(3) THE APPLICATION OF A DAILY FINE of R$50,000.00 (fifty thousand reais) to individuals and legal entities that engage in conduct involving the use of technological subterfuges to continue communications carried out by “X”, such as the use of VPN ('virtual private network'), without prejudice to other civil and criminal sanctions, in accordance with the law.

codedokode2• 2 years ago

It is clearly seen that all of this has something to do with elections. I wonder if "digital militia" found some facts of rigging them?

throwaway872675• 2 years ago

Since I can't edit my comment anymore, here's an update: The order to take down VPN apps from app stores has been suspended until further action by X or Elon Musk.

https://web.archive.org/web/20240830235848/https://www.cnnbr...

nemo44x2• 2 years ago

Brazil is heading down a very dark path.

But predictable. Contempt of and banning speech because it’s disruptive to the regime (cynically “our democracy”) and harassing political opposition is commonplace for socialist and leftist governments.

sva_3• 2 years ago

Gonna enjoy hearing from people defending this because they dislike Elon Musk

consumer4514• 2 years ago

“Twitter doesn’t have a choice but to obey local governments. If we don’t obey local government laws, we will get shut down"

- Elon Musk on decision to follow Modi's requests for censorship

https://www.business-standard.com/technology/tech-news/twitt...

seydor5• 2 years ago

This is not the government

hungie11• 2 years ago

The parent is saying Musk complied with these requests elsewhere without complaint, he's only making a fuss about it in Brazil. It's an odd hypocrisy or shift in strategy.

consumer4514• 2 years ago

For the record, if Musk is to be believed, the requests from the government stink IMO. However, the judge making this ruling is part of the government and setting the law, is he not?

diegoholiveira6• 2 years ago

I don't know about India, but in Brazil, the requests sent to X (Twitter) have no legal basis, that is, they are illegal by nature. The entire process that resulted in this blocking is secret and not even the defense lawyers had access to the investigation.

consumer4514• 2 years ago

I am not sure about India either, but according to my extensive legal training from looking at this wiki entry... it appears to be legal, yet probably unconstitutional.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_India

blackeyeblitzar5• 2 years ago

I am not sure why people keep bringing up Turkey or India as a justification for authoritarianism in Brazil. The orders for content takedowns in India were more obviously legal and were not done in secret, but in full public view with clear avenues for legal challenge.

On the other hand, in Brazil Alexandre de Moraes sits on two different courts at the same time and claims that one court gave him the power to unilaterally censor/ban/arrest people in secret from the other court. It is obviously a farce, even to the slightest investigation. Twitter/X is correct to challenge it since it isn’t legal within Brazil.

ChrisArchitect• 2 years ago

Related timeline:

Starlink will now be free in Brazil since remote hospitals, schools use it: Musk

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41397506

Starlink's financial assets frozen in Brazil

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41392962

marcellus7772• 2 years ago

for non-Brazilians trying to understand the situation:

(1) a supreme court judge ordered X to remove some political profiles saying they are spreading misinformation

(2) coincidentally (or not) most (if not all) profiles are from the opposition

(3) Elon said that that was censorship and closed the office in Brazil

(4) The judge applied hefty fines but those couldn't be fullfied since X doesnt have a bank account in Brazil anymore

(5) The judge orders a judicial blockage of Starlink's brazilian branch accounts to pay for X fines

(4) Finnally, Brazilian law demands a legal representative (a person who will be liable) and Elon say (very loudly) we would not comply

(5) X is now banned by all means

robertlagrant6• 2 years ago

What's the structural link between X and Starlink?

marcellus7772• 2 years ago

Both are owned by Musk. I know that is too simple, but that is relatively common in Brazil (to easily link companies because they share owners or shareholders)

Natsu6• 2 years ago

Moraes' order claimed they were part of an "economic group" due to Musk's ownership. That's pretty much it.

Since then, Starlink has just said that everyone can have free service for now since they can't get paid anyway. They're in use in a lot of remote areas, like Amazonia, and the Brazilian military came out with a statement the other day saying that they rely on Starlink and if Moraes wants to shut that down, it will screw them over.

wtcactus3• 2 years ago

In judicial systems like the Brazilian (and sadly many European ones) a judge that’s sufficiently high up in the judicial ladder gets to be judge and jury.

He is technically bound by the law, but he also has the power to interpret the law as he sees fit (many such cases in Portugal for instance).

This system puts too much power in the hands of a single person and as such is ripe for abuse for personal causes… or worst, for personal gains. There’s nothing democratic about this.

It should be a jury of fellow peers to decide if someone is guilty of actually breaking a law.

crop_rotation13• 2 years ago

I don't think it is about judicial systems and what not. The judge is only able to take dictatorial powers in Brazil because the society as a whole is not in a position to fight against it and kind of accepts it as something unfixable (lots of people might even support it). I doubt the Brazilian Constitution gives him such vast power.

brunoarueira• 2 years ago

The problem is many politicians who have power to change it or remove such person are dirty and to keep their mandates, prefer to not talk or do anything about it! On the other side the current voters are brain washed or manipulated through presents during the elections to vote in someone, so it'll be a long journey to reverts things here.

howard941• 2 years ago

This peer thing arises from a common law heritage. Brazil operates under civilian law. Totally different.

blackeyeblitzar5• 2 years ago

Even in Brazil typically one person does not get to be judge and jury. Alexandre de Moraes is currently on the supreme federal court, and was previously president of the superior electoral court, which is the other top level court in Brazil. Note that De Moraes served on both courts at the same time. As part of his powers on the superior electoral court, he granted himself the authority to perform unilateral censorship through secret orders as part of his duties in the federal court. This is obviously not legal and totally absurd legal theory since it violates the separation of powers of these two courts. These powers should only be granted to the judicial system through new legislation or changes to the constitution.

VerminOctopus15• 2 years ago

Well this is fun. Nice to see a government with some teeth for once instead of bowing to the whims of every multibillion mega corporation or agitated billionaire.

crop_rotation13• 2 years ago

Yes very nice to see a court acting as judge jury and executioner all at once and fining random VPN users random amounts without needing boring things like law. Maybe Plato was right and philospher kings work best.

blackeyeblitzar5• 2 years ago

It’s not even a court but a single justice on the court, who claims he got the legal power from the other top level court, which he conveniently served on previously (seriously). No laws were passed to give Alexandre de Moraes the power to issue secret orders to censor, ban, or arrest without due process and without transparency to the public. Obviously no working democracy can tolerate these types of authoritarian attacks on free speech.

Wytwwww6• 2 years ago

It's nice to see a government which is threatening to fine its citizens US$8,900 per day for using a website which was banned because it didn't remove the accounts of that government's political opponents?

inglor_cz4• 2 years ago

If you want to live under a government with a lot of sharp teeth against capitalists, North Korea may be your ideal country.

nomdep3• 2 years ago

I miss the days when religious zealots like you were against sex or whatever

VerminOctopus15• 2 years ago

I’m neither religious nor against sex or whatever nonsense you’re talking about. I’m for law and order, and for suppressing bad actors in society.

brigadier1324• 2 years ago

Can someone explain the me what actual power do Brazilian supreme court justices have? Seems like Brazilian judges are like Judge Dredd.

crop_rotation13• 2 years ago

The actual power is what a society will accept. At this point it seems like he can do anything a monarch could do in a kinda modern society.

brigadier1324• 2 years ago

Sure but I'm asking in theory, what is the power of justices according to their constitution.

marcosdumay5• 2 years ago

On paper, the Congress is perfectly capable of removing any supreme court minister for any kind of wrongdoing. They can't exactly reverse the decisions, but they can make them ineffective too.

On practice, well, they are clearly above the other powers, and only the supreme court plenarium can do anything about the individual judges.

rafaquintanilha2• 2 years ago

The main issue here – and this is will eventually happen to every democracy – is that given the right incentives and conditions, _everything_ can be considered "legal" from a system perspective.

Because of authoritarian traumas post-WWII, most democracies evolved to a highly controlled executive, mostly by the judiciary – which is supposed to be monitored by the legislative.

But if you pack the court (the left is dominates Brazil in the last 40 years) and pay enough to the House (the executive controls the federal budget), you pretty much won the game (you are able to make your own rules).

It's amazing how someone from outside like Elon Musk is way, way more powerful than all elected representatives in Brazil, simply because he is somewhat independent from the political apparatus (the most voted congressman in the last election had been arbitrarily banned from social media, so votes really don't count).

The only way out is a combination of international pressure + local manifestations.

geraldog3• 2 years ago

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41316512

facorreia3• 2 years ago

For the curious, this is the main Brazilian legislation about the topic:

https://www.cgi.br/pagina/marco-civil-law-of-the-internet-in...

declan_roberts3• 2 years ago

For those saying "just use a VPN" -- who is to say the BR government isn't going to use this as a cash extraction weapon against those critical of the state.

Pull up a list of all known BR notable people on twitter. See if they tweeted anything since the ban was in effect. Fine them and rake in the $$$.

The govt probably WANTS it to be circumvented.

crop_rotation13• 2 years ago

VPN users are being fined as part of the order, a pretty massive fine.

These rulings are clearly arbitrary and have no basis on anything. They should be thought more like a Monarch's orders. Yes the monarch can any day order using Linux you will have to pay a big fine if he somehow gets angry on Linux.

lemoncookiechip2• 2 years ago

They've even asked Google and Apple to take down several popular VPN apps from their stores and delete the apps from user's phones.

jmclnx• 2 years ago

I am glad to see Brazil is not afraid of these billionaires. If only the US could start enforcing laws the same, no matter what your worth or who you are.

I wonder if Brazil is finally going after corruption that I believe exists there.

“implement technological barriers to prevent the use of the X app by users of the iOS and Android systems” and to block the use of VPN applications.

I wonder how they can selectivity enforce the VPN part of the ban ?

ta8645• 2 years ago

You should be embarrassed to be such a petty authoritarian cheerleader just because that power is being abused against someone you dislike and disagree with.

meroes• 2 years ago

You mean like Musk is happy to do what Brazil asked of him/X as long as it’s Turkey or another autocrat like Modi he wants to be in bed with?

qwerpy• 2 years ago

I'm relieved that at least HN is pushing back on opinions like these. If you really want to be scared, look at the reddit threads discussing this on technology, worldnews, etc. The young online generation is more than happy to embrace authoritarianism and censorship as long as it hurts someone they dislike.

yimmothathird• 2 years ago

When someone will embrace anything to harm you, you have to be prepared to weaponize the same things.

paxys• 2 years ago

I wonder what all the walled garden lovers have to say about this. Would have been nice to be able to install apps and VPNs on your phones without Apple's or the government's ability to block it right? Or are you still going to stick to the "it's for our own safety" party line?

crop_rotation13• 2 years ago

Walled garden are an orthogonal (although themselves non trivial) issues compared to an arbitrary court issuing random arbitrary monarchical summons. No amount of custom tweaked linux will protect you there.

leumon• 2 years ago

Maybe musk should bring back the onion link to Twitter that he purged.

crop_rotation13• 2 years ago

So that the judge can start fining TOR users?

theginger• 2 years ago

What starlink chooses to do will be most interesting, deny any connection, block X like the isps have been ordered and try and get their bank accounts reinstated.

Or pull out of Brazil on the ground and operate as a rogue isp whose money can be blocked, in the short term at least but not their service.

I hope it's the 2nd, be a lesson to all world leaders, and not just ultra authoritarian ones, that the Internet doesn't respect geographic boarder and you cannot control it like that.

wtcactus3• 2 years ago

I’m guessing starlink is already (or soon will be) ilegal to sell in Brazil.

So, assuming this judge won’t go as far as forcing people with starlink antennas to remove their existing installations, they will be the only ones able to use outside access. And that is an extremely low percentage of the population.

viraptor• 2 years ago

that the Internet doesn't respect geographic boarder

There's a tonne of regulations already applying to the internet. Yes you can control it like that and many countries do. Twitter already had flags for filtering content based on local laws.

It's a cool overall idea, but no. It doesn't work like that in practice. Not for a person not very informed about traffic masking anyway.

seydor5• 2 years ago

Starlink ceased operations in brazil and doesnt have a bank account. Musk tweeted that he will keep it for free in brazil because some remote schools use it.

basementcat• 2 years ago

Starlink cannot really operate as a "rogue ISP"; they have to license radio spectrum from Brazil and they have to share lawfully intercepted communications with Law Enforcement.

swader9993• 2 years ago

This might affect our ability to recruit talent from Brazil if the use of VPN is forbidden.

hereme8885• 2 years ago

How would the Brazilian gov. know if a person is visiting X on a VPN, if the VPN is of good quality?

crop_rotation13• 2 years ago

They don't need to. Selective enforcement is a key point of dictatorships. They can apply this fine to people they don't like. In general all such orders will have a chilling effect.

sturob• 2 years ago

If they post

hereme8885• 2 years ago

lol, so simple. True. Thanks.

tux1968• 2 years ago

Any Brazilian with a known handle, will be vulnerable the moment they post anything. It doesn't matter the quality of the VPN at all.

hu3• 2 years ago

What happens if a Brazilian travels to USA and tweets from there.

Then returns to Brazil?

kernal• 2 years ago

The ironic effect of this ludicrous behavior and judgement by this crazy Brazilian judge will be that more people will flock to X. This will be the Streisand effect on steroids.

VerminOctopus15• 2 years ago

Quite the claim and hyperbole. I’m fairly certain the exact opposite will happen because most people are not tech savvy and will not bother to circumvent the blocks in place. Some local alternatives will pop up and they’ll use that instead. Twitter is also no longer the town hall of the internet, or whatever people were calling it.

lemoncookiechip2• 2 years ago

I might not agree with Elon Musk on things he says and does these days, but he's very much in the right here, at least if you value freedom of speech, privacy, and democracy.

The judge tried to silence the political opposition on Twitter via shadowbans and removal, Elon didn't comply, so they decided to go after Twitter employees in Brazil, to which Elon shut everything down to prevent the employees from being jailed, then since Twitter has no bank accounts in Brazil, they went after Starlink's accounts, and now they've banned the platform, add to that that they're fining people exorbitant amounts of money for circumventing the ban.

I'm oversimplifying it, but the matter of a fact is that this judge and the political party in power are acting like fascists, they've even tried getting several popular VPN applications banned by asking Google and Apple to remove them.

EDIT: For those in the comments pointing towards India (Modi) and Turkey (Erdogan). I personally didn't like when Elon bent over for them, he likes to call himself a free speech absolutist, but he's a hypocrite, and those aren't the only two cases of him going against is so called morals, but that doesn't change the fact that this is wrong, and two wrongs don't make a right.

SiempreViernes4• 2 years ago

Uh, the judge tried to punish insurrectionist and Twitter agreed to comply and then just didn't as opposed to how they did in India or Turkey.

swader9993• 2 years ago

I thought Lula was left wing.

Georgelemental5• 2 years ago

“The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”

wtcactus3• 2 years ago

I'm oversimplifying it, but the matter of a fact is that this judge and the political party in power are acting like fascists, they've even tried getting several popular VPN applications banned by asking Google and Apple to remove them.

The political party in power is socialist and defines itself as socialist. The president openly defines himself as a "socialist". [1]

So, they aren't acting as fascists, they are acting as socialists. Which, granted, is mostly the same in many aspects.

[1] https://jacobin.com.br/2023/10/lula-e-a-construcao-do-social...

FergusArgyll• 2 years ago

If you're in Brazil:

Tails [0] is surprisingly easy to use. Do your own research I guess, but it might help you out.

[0] https://tails.net/

mrtksn4• 2 years ago

This is a very, very sad day for the Internet. Unfortunately, you can expect that every app and every platform will get localized and blocking will be normalized.

Soon TikTok will be blocked in the USA. I expect this to serve as an example and an avalanche to follow across the globe.

Blocking a platform for alleged crimes committed the by operator or participants is a punishment for all the users. It’s ridiculous but unfortunately, it appears that the world is ready to accept this as a solution.

VerminOctopus15• 2 years ago

In this case was X not explicitly asked to remove the illegal content? They could have simply complied with the local law and avoided this outcome. With their hardcore engineers I’m sure they could have come up with a region-locked solution.

mrtksn4• 2 years ago

They already have regional blocking, they have been blocking political tweets and accounts in Turkey upon the request of the Turkish government since years now.

hagbard_c2• 2 years ago

They might have been able to do so but they claim not to want to cooperate with what they consider to be a violation of both Brasilian law as well as their own ethical rules. Make of that what you will but it is a more defensible stance than bending to the will of whatever tyrant pops up even if it does not improve the bottom line.

mikrotikker5• 2 years ago

How are you going to prove that TikTok is an intelligence and Psyop arm the PLA? The CCP does not respond to discovery in court cases of adversary nations.

mrtksn4• 2 years ago

If don't have any proof why block it then? Is this North Korea?

Anyway, if the US has suspicion of PLA working with TikTok and IMHO the should be suspicious, they can regulate how data is collected or how algorithms work and require mechanism that allows that be verified.

seydor5• 2 years ago

X and its former incarnation, Twitter, have been banned in several countries — mostly authoritarian regimes such as Russia, China, Iran, Myanmar, North Korea, Venezuela and Turkmenistan. Other countries, such as Pakistan, Turkey and Egypt, have also temporarily suspended X before, usually to quell dissent and unrest.

dalmo32• 2 years ago

Slippery slope is a fallacy, they said.

shark12• 2 years ago

The list below contains all the countries where the government is very worried about the information available on Twitter/X:

- Brazil

- Venezuela

- North Korea

- China

- Iran

- Myanmar

- Pakistan

- Russia

- Turkmenistan

shark12• 2 years ago

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_of_Twitter

tmaly• 2 years ago

This seems similar to the fate TikTok has in store.

It is sad to see nation states taking the route of censorship, it seems like some super form of helicopter parenting.

blackeyeblitzar5• 2 years ago

In case people are not aware, numerous professors of law in Brazil, pro democracy organizations, and journalists have called the change in Brazil as a lunge towards authoritarianism. This justice in particular, Alexandre de Moraes, has been called a threat to democracy many times even a few years ago. Example: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/26/world/americas/bolsonaro-...

Unfortunately the courts have made their own laws. De Moraes claims the court he previously served on gave him the power to issue secret unilateral censorship orders from the court he now serves on. It’s all convenient but obviously doesn’t pass the sniff test for legality. If the Brazilian governments wants new powers to censor the speech of political opponents, it must do so through constitutional change.

This is what Twitter/X is defending, and it is the right thing to defend. You cannot have democracy without free speech. And if businesses cannot conduct operations without threat of unreasonable fines and arrest of their legal representatives, then Brazil won’t be a good destination for business either. It is also very telling that Lula, who has a long history of corruption and scandals, came out to endorse Alexandre de Moraes’s actions. Meanwhile, other justices must either stay silent or support them to avoid retribution. It’s a scary time in Brazil.

geraldog3• 2 years ago

Citing that it might be cumbersome for App Stores to implement the order then revert it, de Moraes reverted the order for Google and Apple to ban VPNs from Stores.

I bet it won't stop there. He won't be satisfied until he blocks Tor too, which X / Twitter could plausibly setup as an Onion service.

This is all because the National Assembly that promulgated the 1988 Brazilian Constitution chose to specifically ban anonymity. It's on paragraph IV, article 5 of Brazilian Constitution.

I got downvoted for posting the obvious topic here so once again: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41316512

Scion9066• 2 years ago

X already has an onion service I believe, check the x.com meta tags for "onion-location".

geraldog3• 2 years ago

X Onion Service Seems to be Located at https://twitter3e4tixl4xyajtrzo62zg5vztmjuricljdp2c5kshju4av... in case anyone cares.

I certainly don't!

random_dev_1989• 2 years ago

I can't express in words how horrible it's been to see the country I loved go spiral downhill due to a corrupt president and an non elected judge with ties to the REDACTED faction. At least 30% of the country is in favor of that. The country is infected with corruption everywhere, from small scale to the core. I'm leaving the land my family has worked hard for 200 years and moving to Uruguai. At least I have the option. I always wanted to stay apart from political discussion and for the most of the time I was center-left. From now on, I do not help nor connect with any cockroach who endorse this (the brazilian left wing party).

hax0ron3• 2 years ago

It is funny how many people who, if Putin's Russia did this, would immediately understand what is going on here and not make complicated excuses about law or the subtle nature of free speech, instead when Brazil does this pretend that this is something different simply because they so vehemently disagree with Musk and his politics.

Of course most of those people also disagree with Putin's politics, but to them Musk is the "near enemy", which is more dangerous to them than the "far enemy".

If one sees any fundamental psychological drive in an average American's positive reaction to this news other than pure tribal/religious desire to annihilate their political opponents, one has not yet put on those nice sunglasses from They Live. Don't get me wrong, of course there is the occasional actually principled rational person, but overall the vast majority of reactions to this fall along tribal lines, even here at the orange site, which maybe once was full of geeky libertarian types but has clearly for a long time now been overrun by a different sort of person.

itherseed• 2 years ago

Not my words by an accurate statement:

"A Brazilian judge tells Elon that he has to block certain users of X. Elon says no. The judge says that he will then put X's legal representative in Brazil in jail. Elon closes the offices in Brazil. The judge says that he has to have a legal representative in Brazil, that is what the law says. Elon says "if I name another representative you will put him in jail". Then the judge orders X to be blocked in Brazil. And he threatens to fine those who try to use X in Brazil through VPNs. In other words, users who easily use X in Brazil to see memes become potential criminals when they did nothing illegal.

It's crazy. It's an abuse of authority. Because let's suppose that Carlinho Da Souza calls for burning all the kids alive, the one who commits a crime (let's suppose) is Carlinho, and Justice should be focused on him, not on the company that provides its platform without knowing beforehand that Carlinho is an idiot, and even knowing it later from his posts. And you shouldn't demand that the company prevent Carlinho from exposing his stupidity, that would be like telling the cell phone company not to let me talk on the phone because I threatened to break someone's face. And then, since the company says no, it won't prevent me from talking on the phone, then it blocks the cell phone signal throughout the country, for everyone.

Freedom of expression is being able to say what you want and take responsibility for the consequences. But the consequences are for the alleged offender, not for people who have nothing to do with it.

To make another cheap analogy, if someone stabs a neighbor, you can't ban knives and force butchers to cut meat with their teeth."

silverliver4• 2 years ago

Somebody needs to patiently sit down with this judge and explain to him that the jurisdiction of his court (and his understanding of technology) has limits.

Good luck, Brazil.

virgulino7• 2 years ago

Starlink will not block X-Twitter in Brazil:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41421531

Brazilian court orders suspension of X

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