Cautionary tale on using Chase bank for indie business

https://jxnl.co/writing/2024/09/21/chase-bank-small-business-nightmare/

by nell • 2 years ago

295 259 2 years ago

nell• 2 years ago

I followed the saga as Jason was going through this. You may not have the same sway as large entities if you are an indie dev.

briandw2• 2 years ago

I know that it's an extra expense, but shouldn't you get a lawyer involved first thing?

jxnlco14• 2 years ago

i was just a dude with 3 contractors, i figured it'd just get resolved cause i didnt do anything wrong...

stuff4ben• 2 years ago

You run a business without a lawyer? Ballsy!

briandw2• 2 years ago

I can absolutely see myself falling into that same trap. Thinking that it's just a misunderstanding and that it'll get resolved any day now, just have to do one more thing. They can't be that unreasonable right? The unfortunate lesson that that you have to assume the worst and escalate right away.

commercialnix7• 2 years ago

You need access to a good lawyer or you're going to get run over. When you sue, you can sue for legal costs, damages to your business, and punitive damages.

galaxyLogic6• 2 years ago

Lawyer would be great but it may be that you have agreed to a contract which says you cannot sue them, only arbitration.

criddell• 2 years ago

Arbitration isn't necessarily a bad thing. And you probably still want to have a lawyer involved.

londons_explore2• 2 years ago

Diversifying in many cases won't help you.

If a bank suspects fraud, they can tell other banks about their suspicion, which will cause all banks to freeze your accounts and none will be able to tell you why.

leotravis10• 2 years ago

Especially if/when a person or business goes into the ChexSystems "blacklist" [1] where that individual or business can't have a bank account in the US, Canada, and EU for five to seven years.

[1] https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/banking/blocked-by-chexsy...

meowster• 2 years ago

I wonder if anyone has successfully sued a credit-reporting business for libel.

ravenstine2• 2 years ago

Would this also apply to credit unions? I feel like a credit union is less likely to give a f*** about what some bank tells them, and a bank probably doesn't want to help credit unions anyway. Am I wrong?

londons_explore2• 2 years ago

I think most are scared about the law. "You had information that X was linked to a terrorist organisation, and yet you still let them open an account and transfer $Ym?. Big fine and/or prison".

650REDHAIR2• 2 years ago

The most important lesson learned here is not to ever deal with retail banking at the branch. Not only do they not care they aren’t given the authority or autonomy to help you.

By trying to do this at multiple branches across the country OP likely made the problem worse as those actions raise suspicions even more.

With that much money after the first day of inaction by support he should have CC’d every department from legal@ to the C-suite.

oasisbob• 2 years ago

This may vary a lot by bank.

At the small regional bank I used to work for accounts were assigned a home branch, typically where the account was first opened, and that branch had enhanced responsibilities in terms of servicing and maintaining the relationship.

Chase is big enough that their KYC fallout queues probably have an entire team working them, and it wouldn't matter who else you CC on the email.

("Hey Joe, come quick! Just got an email from someone claiming they need their money we just froze...")

calmbonsai5• 2 years ago

Can confirm KYC really helps (in reverse) at small/regional banks. Shout-out to Midfirst Bank https://www.midfirst.com/about-us for walking the walk.

I deliberately flow a higher percentage of transactions through my, literally 10 min walk away, regional bank branch. I also occasionally (~once/month), literally walk into the lobby (shocking I know) to say "hi!" when withdrawing cash at the ATM for travel.

They know me by name & face. I'm not just a number to the tellers, the manager, and the vp, and likewise back to them.

Shockingly, I get fees waived for wires the occasional cashier's check, and am appraised of anything else going on with the website, upcoming services, and pending transactions (even at high relative holding percentages from one-time routes) flow through like butter.

Relationship banking at its finest.

650REDHAIR2• 2 years ago

But this isn’t a KYC issue and clearly escalating worked.

Any time I’ve ever had issues that weren’t resolved within 24hrs by t1 support I’ve sent a succinct, mostly emotionless email to anyone I could find and it’s worked every time. Phone companies, banks, hell even the government.

crote2• 2 years ago

Chase is big enough that their KYC fallout queues probably have an entire team working them, and it wouldn't matter who else you CC on the email.

The trick is to become so incredibly annoying that some CxO / VP is going to bump you ahead in the queue and assign a dedicated customer experience manager.

Personally, if a bank were to steal $180.000 of my money, a few weeks in I'd probably start considering sticking "Chase is a criminal organization" posters on the doors of their regional headquarters, or getting tickets to industry events just so I can ask them at the Q&A where my money is. They may think "computer says no" is an acceptable answer, but that doesn't mean I can't make their life a living hell too - so why not make my problem our problem?

mminer237• 2 years ago

It's definitely exacerbated by being a big bank though. If I have a problem with my local bank, I can literally walk into the branch and probably just talk to a VP about it straight-away if needed.

syntheticnature• 2 years ago

Yes, though banks use "VP" in a title the same way "Senior" is used in software.

smeej2• 2 years ago

This is even more true at a local credit union.

Add in the co-op network of credit unions, where you can go to any branch of any of the member unions (50k+ branches last time I checked, but it's been awhile) and it's hard for me to understand why people bother with these big banks.

jxnlco14• 2 years ago

yeah it was hard to fit in my travel schedule, i totally agree it was a terrible experience losing contact and starting over with many people

throwway1203852• 2 years ago

I would've had a lawyer on retainer within the first week and had them in touch with the legal department until I got my check. We've had similar weird issues with our home address and the mortgage company that suddenly got cleared up when we put our lawyer in touch with their lawyer and there turned out to be a very simple form and process for changing the address of the property.

jonnycomputer• 2 years ago

I'm going to have to say that getting a lawyer on board with that much money after the second obstacle would be first priority.

physhster• 2 years ago

Business or Personal, do not ever rely on a single bank. Ever. Have a backup, ideally far enough from your "main" bank that any issue doesn't bleed over.

benzible8• 2 years ago

About 10 years ago a startup I co-founded had about $3M in a Chase account. We received a notification that they were closing our account within 30 days. We weren't able to get any information but I assume this was a KYC false positive. The only thing I can think of is that we had some investors from the Middle East. We had no problem withdrawing our funds but since then, I've opened another business account and a personal travel credit card with Chase, both of which were shut down within weeks, so apparently I'm personally flagged for life.

jxnlco14• 2 years ago

holy shit. They never gave me an answer but the last thing the KYC team did (outside of executive branch) was just confirm a 25k invoice =_=

benzible8• 2 years ago

Just for posterity, we received this on 6/28/2013. Looks like they actually gave us 60 days.

Dear [redacted] Inc.
A review of our records indicates that we are unable to retain your above-referenced account(s) (the "Accounts") at JPMorgan Chase Bank, N.A. (the "Bank").
The terms and conditions governing the Accounts ("Account Rules") provide that the Bank may close your Accounts at any time. Although the Account Rules do not require the Bank to provide you with advance notice of the termination of the Accounts, as a courtesy, please be advised that the Accounts will be terminated and closed after the close of business on 08/26/2013. Any items presented for payment on the Accounts and not paid prior to termination will be returned unpaid. If the Accounts were covered by Overdraft Protection, as that term is defined in the Account Rules, such Overdraft Protection will terminate with respect to the Accounts on the Termination Date.
Please do not deposit checks to the Accounts within five (5) business days of the Termination Date or any earlier date that you close the Accounts. Please arrange to cause any Automated Clearing House or ACH deposits or transfers to the Accounts to be terminated prior to closure. Provided that no checks have been deposited to your Accounts within the five (5) business day period before the Accounts are closed and no deposits of any kind have been made to your Accounts within a two (2) business day period before such closure, upon closure the Bank will, at your risk, mail to you at the address set forth above a check for the balance of your Accounts, less any service charges assessed to the Accounts. If deposits are made to the Accounts prior to closure inconsistent with the foregoing, the Bank will mail your check as soon as reasonably possible following closure of the Accounts. If you wish to make other arrangements for receipt of any funds remaining in the Accounts or if you have questions, please contact 1-877-691-8086 OPTION-NUMBER-1.
Notwithstanding the Bank's intent to allow the Accounts to remain open until as set forth above, the Bank reserves the right to close the Accounts earlier, at any time, for any reason, without notice.
Sincerely,
Chase Operating Loss Prevention

Bluestein2• 2 years ago

Loss Prevention

For "prevention," seems like a great way to lose customers ...

wcarss• 2 years ago

did you retype this? Assuming not, I just noticed they made the "if" -> "fi" typo twice and in two different ways -- interesting that what amounts to boilerplate can have that stuff get through.

pdonis5• 2 years ago

the Bank may close your Accounts at any time...the Account Rules do not require the Bank to provide you with advance notice of the termination of the Accounts

I assume most of the big banks probably have similar language, which would be a huge red flag to me for a small business account. But what about banks like Mercury Bank, mentioned in the article as being more supportive of small businesses? Do their terms of service provide at least some kind of guarantee about due process if the bank has a question about your account?

mijoharas• 2 years ago

I've opened another business account and a personal travel credit card with Chase

Out of interest, why would you do that after your previous experience with them?

benzible8• 2 years ago

The Chase Sapphire card was rated as the best travel card. I had no idea that I had been flagged personally at the time I applied.

I can't remember why I chose them for a business account. At the time I was working under the assumption that this was a "lightning strike" type of event which could have happened with any bank. I'm more inclined to believe it's Chase-specific now, or at least more likely with Chase, esp. based on other anecdotes in this thread! I was also inclined to believe that most large banks are terrible. For example, I have experienced extremely poor customer service with B of A, and Wells Fargo is a very sleazy company. However, my experience with Chase is by far the worst I've personally experienced.

I'm a very happy customer of Mercury Bank for my current business, FWIW.

choilive2• 2 years ago

Had a similar experience at a startup I co-founded. Chase's risk or compliance team suddenly decided to close our accounts. Possibly because we were in the crypto space.

throwaway20374• 2 years ago

    > I've opened another business account and a personal travel credit card with Chase, both of which were shut down within weeks

This pattern repeats itself frequently here on HN. My questions / advice are always the same. Did you send written letters to Chase to ask for an explanation? In parallel, CC the same letter (yeah, by snail mail, and tell Chase you are doing it) to your local and national banking regulators. I cannot believe you will get zero response.

What exactly is a "personal travel credit card"? I never heard that term before.

developerDan2• 2 years ago

In regards to your question -

Credit cards typically come in two flavors: cash back and travel. Cash back is self explanatory, travel cards reward points instead (cash equivalent of 1 point is $0.01 at least for the US). These points can be transferred to other accounts to take advantage of things like reward seats on airlines.

benzible8• 2 years ago

I cannot believe you will get zero response.

Believe it. Our account seems to have been closed due to a KYC issue, and the bank, by law, cannot tell you any details. See this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41333832

And, yes: we tried every avenue to get more information, including having an attorney write a letter. As you can imagine, this was quite concerning for our company. We wanted to understand if there was some piece of information that might lead other banks to close our account. As I mentioned in another comment, none of our other accounts were closed - only this Chase account.

I tried again to get more information when the Chase accounts I opened, for another business and subsequently a personal credit card, were closed, although by that point, the only logical explanation was my connection to the business bank account that had previously been closed and I didn't have much hope that I'd get an answer.

Also: to be blunt I'm not sure what gave you the impression that I'm looking for advice. I was relating an old anecdote that was relevant to the OP, not asking for help. I just stay away from Chase. At this point I know that I'm blacklisted with them. I have no issue with other banks.

What exactly is a "personal travel credit card"? I never heard that term before.

"Personal" as in: this was a credit card for me personally, not a business credit card. My point is that I seem to be blacklisted by Chase even for _personal_ accounts unconnected to the business whose account the closed. I assume you've heard of a "travel credit card", but if not: https://www.nerdwallet.com/best/credit-cards/travel

choilive2• 2 years ago

Yep, they definitely wont give a reason. They just say that the risk/compliance team has made the determination and it is final. shrug

gojomo• 2 years ago

Crypto solves this. Well, eventually, after initially making it worse, because all your crypto-adjacent transactions in the meantime make legacy banks extra-hair-trigger suspicious.

xur17• 2 years ago

This seems somewhat contentious, but having some assets outside of the banks is a pretty reasonable derisking mechanism. Bitcoin, and some stablecoins seem like a wise choice.

ProllyInfamous4• 2 years ago

My local credit union has gone from anti crypto to fully support; I was one of a dozen or so people who were able to provide legitimate datapoints to support bitcoin usages that weren't illegal.

So glad I was able to just walk in to the local HQ and have a sit-down with the person who ultimately authorized crypto exchange transactions. YMMV

smeej2• 2 years ago

Some crypto does. Many cryptos are worse.

For example, USDC accounts can be frozen by a single entity with no recourse whatsoever.

lisper7• 2 years ago

Crypto solves this.

Not really. It just replaces this problem with a different but equally difficult problem: managing your crypto keys, which is a skill in and of itself. And if you hire someone to do it for you now you are right back where you started, trusting a third party.

The right answer IMHO is to do business with a bank that is small enough that you have a contact there whom you personally know and will pick up the phone when you call.

ravenstine2• 2 years ago

managing your crypto keys, which is a skill in and of itself.

Um, depending on how complicated/paranoid you want to get?

Install the Phoenix wallet app and you've got your keys and Lightning node ready to go, pending added liquidity. Sure, it's not maximally secure, but a person can perform transactions outside the banking system pretty easily this way. No need to so consciously "manage" anything.

Phone not secure enough? Fine – then get a hardware wallet like Ledger.

But maybe I'm misunderstanding your point?

And if you hire someone to do it for you now you are right back where you started, trusting a third party.

If, by hiring someone, you mean using a custodian like Kraken, then you're still solving a problem by not dealing with the traditional banking system. Sure, you're back to trusting a third party, but that's really not the issue at hand, but avoiding Big Bank.

The right answer IMHO is to do business with a bank that is small enough that you have a contact there whom you personally know and will pick up the phone when you call.

Seems like a nice idea, yet very optimistic. Is everyone supposed to have a personal contact from within a small bank? Probably works for some people, but involves luck and wouldn't scale. The issue isn't really being solved this way.

The closest compromise might be to work with credit unions instead of banks.

pengaru• 2 years ago

When I first moved to the SF Bay it tickled me to find there was no retail Chase Bank presence at all.

Then the financial collapse and bailouts happened, Chase scooped up WaMu, and now Chase is everywhere here. :sadpanda:

I won't even take money from their ATMs if I can avoid it, my bank covers ATM fees, but f*ck giving that company another dime.

wanderr2• 2 years ago

Is there a bank you recommend? Mostly I use online banks but every now and then you just need to go to a physical bank. I am a bit nomadic so one with branches all over the country would be good, although I know those are the most likely to be terrible

techsupporter• 2 years ago

Most credit unions participate in the credit union shared branching network, so I recommend joining your local credit union of choice. You can then go into the branches of several other credit unions to do most banking needs.

The caveat is if there's a major problem, like here, then you'd need to deal directly with your home credit union.

martin_• 2 years ago

Glad you got your money back Jason!

Not often you get to read a post from the future, either ;) "posted on 2024/09/21"

jxnlco14• 2 years ago

fuck lol, i messed up the date but if i fix it it breaks the url

tantalor• 2 years ago

Title is different?

Should be: Chasing Chase: Why I'll Never Trust Chase Bank Again, A Yuppie Nightmare

CliffStoll4• 2 years ago

Similar experience: Citibank Retirement.

I had about $80,000 in IRA/CD's. I'd created & contributed to them over a period of 35 years.

Last year, it's time to retire, and Citibank won't give me half the money. It seems that some CD's are for "Cliff Stoll" and some for "Clifford Stoll".

Citibank Retirement demanded a "Marriage Certificate, Divorce Decree, or Court Order" to demonstrate that "Cliff Stoll" is the same person as "Clifford Stoll".

Took more than 8 months, dozens of emails, five visits to Citibank offices, and a letter to the Citibank president, to shake loose money that I'd deposited across three decades.

codetrotter• 2 years ago

Infuriating. That kind of thing is what makes me wish I could not have to ever deal with a bank ever again.

otteromkram4• 2 years ago

Who said you have to deal with a bank? That's not written into law, is it?

Try a credit union if you want to avoid banks.

Djdjur7373bb2• 2 years ago

It's this exact sentiment that drives many to crypto, despite the challenges in spending it at this point.

EvanAnderson• 2 years ago

Doubly infuriating because it's Cliff Stoll they fucked-with.

At least I know never to do business with Citi.

ghaff• 2 years ago

I've had some weird experiences related to my address although none were really a serious problem. My street name changed (probably when an interstate spur was put in about 40 years ago) and I still have issues now and then with geolocation.

ProllyInfamous4• 2 years ago

My street name changed and I still have issues now and then with geolocation.

This happened at my previous house, except with an additional twist: the street name was changed to an identical streetname, less than a mile away, but within a different city.

Adding to the confusion, my address was duplicated on that other street with a commercial brokerage which often gets sued. How do I know about these lawsuits? — because several process servers showed up (over about eight years living there) to sue the other address. They never believed my factual explanation: the numbers repeat on the same road, so closely ("yeah, ok buddy").

dmoy• 2 years ago

Congrats on the retiring!

Are you still doing the hats & bottles or did you retire from that too?

CliffStoll4• 2 years ago

Thanks D'moy! I'm still having fun with Klein bottles and other topological manifolds. Toying with immersions of the projective plane and several knot embeddings.

At the moment, retirement mainly means "start taking out required minimum distributions".

All the same, I wonder: How do you retire from a marginally profitable nano-business built upon glass mathematical shapes? How'd I ever reach 74 years old?

ProllyInfamous4• 2 years ago

I'm having the same issue due to changing my surname (male). So far I've mentioned that millions of women experience name changes during marriage... to deaf ears.

The good news for this is that my primary stock has gone up 80% (since this issue became apparent, just two years ago), and it has encouraged me to live more frugally. Eventually?

Unrelated: thanks for the awesome Klein Mug, Cliff!

ok_dad• 2 years ago

Millions of people experience name changes… and have to file paperwork. I don’t know how many copies of my marriage cert I’ve had to send out now. I had to send one to a multiplayer video game company to change an account name, for example. It’s not just a given that you can change your name on certain records!

dextrous• 2 years ago

Off-topic: I loved “The Cuckoo’s Egg”, was part of what influenced me to get a CS degree. Fantastic read.

Bluestein2• 2 years ago

Read it. Word. Great book.-

cbm-vic-20• 2 years ago

Cliff, you've probably got the contacts necessary who could get their way in there and change the records for you. :)

jmvoodoo• 2 years ago

Unrelated, but I read your book in the 90s as a teenager and it had a huge impact on my life. Still one of my favorite books. Thank you.

CliffStoll4• 2 years ago

Thanks JM. Long time back, and lotsa changes.

Cleaning out my attic last month, I just found a stash of punch cards left over from the 1980's. Some paper-tape that has my phd dissertation. And a fortran manual from my high school's IBM-1620. Oh my...

jakespencer• 2 years ago

Also unrelated, I too read your book in the 90s as a teenager and emailed you, and you emailed me back!

calmbonsai5• 2 years ago

Ah, Citi.

Related to an earlier comment I posted on a different thread https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41316889 , I didn't name the "national bank", but I now feel perfectly comfortable outing "Citibank" as the national bank that I will no longer (personally) do business with. Corporate stuff is a different matter.

As a matter of policy, they do not empower their front-line (personal) banking CSR reps, and even 1st-level escalation folks. They're basically nothing more than stenographers.

After 20 days of back-and-forth with non-answers, I finally sent them a certified letter giving them 30 days to "take action" or "explain non-action" on a specific dispute amounting to ~$5k.

The responded with a non-reponse bizarre marketing letter in 10 days.

I called to verify the prior letter was "on-record" in my account. Given the nature of the postage, it was already verified delivered.

Moving forward, that 15 year+ line-of-credit is just going sit on their books until they close the account. There is no longer a fundamental basis of forthright communication, confidence in competence, and trust to move forward.

arcanemachiner• 2 years ago

Couldn't hurt to keep an eye on the account to make sure those dummies don't start tacking on some "account dormancy fee" or other nonsense like that.

ethbr13• 2 years ago

As a matter of policy, they do not empower their front-line (personal) banking CSR reps

This appears to be the original sin in most of these scenarios.

Eventually, automation and predictive analytics will break.

If you do not have a customer service org empowered and staffed to (a) investigate what went wrong & (b) make it right, then you will lose customers.

And maybe you're fine with that trickle, but know that the Kafkaesque burning of a relationship means they will never do business with you again.

For all its faults, Amazon is an example of a company that still remembers this and seems to empower its support folks. As a counterexample, I severed a 20 year relationship with Bank of America because they disempowered their retail staff to the point of uselessness.

trinsic2• 2 years ago

After 20 days of back-and-forth with non-answers, I finally sent them a certified letter giving them 30 days to "take action" or "explain non-action" on a specific dispute amounting to ~$5k.
The responded with a non-reponse bizarre marketing letter in 10 days.
I called to verify the prior letter was "on-record" in my account. Given the nature of the postage, it was already verified delivered.

What was the purpose of the certified letter? you can use that in court but did you take any further action?

immibis• 2 years ago

Seems like court order would have been the easier option, but courts intimidate people.

ChrisMarshallNY• 2 years ago

Did you show them your TV interview?

Glad you got things straightened out.

Yesterday's SMBC made me think of you: https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/outside

burnte• 2 years ago

Early this year they messed around with a credit card account I had with them. I immediately said fix it or I cancel today, they refused, I cancelled the account and they've been nagging me to come back for 6 months. Fuck no!

Balgair• 2 years ago

Aside: Hey Cliff, love your work and efforts, glad to hear you're retiring too.

Yeah, we had another issue with Chase like yours and the article's. Finally got around to letting Chase know that a family member had died, took a little while, because, duh. We were all on the accounts together. So, Chase then goes and makes us all down as dead. Freezes everything, then started up the process to put up the money for probate to our various estates (?!). Luckily, we get daily emails about this and were able to go and start everything back up again. It's still no where near finished up, after about 5 months of weekly visits. They managed to make us undead in their system, but then a week later it would revert. No one ever knew what was going on and still don't. Eventually managed to get a check of all the cash in the checking and savings accounts and have gone and put it all with a local credit union. However, about $120k of retirement savings from my dead family member are still locked up in Chase. No amount of records from the county or newspaper obits or hospice forms can convince Chase that the deceased is actually dead. They, and I am not joking here, said that my family member has to sign off on declaring their death to Chase.

Chase, never again.

I want to be clear to the other readers here: This is your warning that 'something is rotten in Denmark'. When another large fiscal crisis starts up again in ~3 years, you'll now know it's because these banks have become too big to operate, not just fail. Cleaning out that mess is going to be a lot harder than 2008, as all their internal records stink.

luizfzs• 2 years ago

Sorry to hijack. Cliff Stoll the astronomer?

I loved your book! I loved the way it reads. So fluid and interesting.

77pt776• 2 years ago

Many decades ago I transfered my money from the USA to Europe. Nothinf much but I didn't want to cross borders with wads of cash even though it's perfectly legal.

I had to give my origin bank everything imaginable, including address, phone, fax of both the destination bank as well as the branch.

All of my ID obviously and the destination account number.

Weeks later I get a message from my destination branch saying they got some money in USD for someone that had a subset of my name but no account information whatsoever.

I said it was for me and thankfully that was it.

What happened?

Eventually I got something that looked like a traceroute of the transfer.

The origin bank used Citibank as an intermediary and at that step everything but the amount, name of the destination bank and my first and last name was lost.

Completely obliterated.

Never trusted them ever since.

ciupicri2• 2 years ago

How was it possible for both "Cliff Stoll" and "Clifford Stoll" to exist? Shouldn't your legal name be used as it is (i.e. no nicknames) on all papers? Or did you change your legal name?

jpollock• 2 years ago

Names are fuzzy things, and what you write on a piece of paper can change. What's on your ID can change over time too.

I've known people who couldn't get their name into the system (no last name), couldn't fit their names into the system (two last names, no hyphen), changed family name (spouses), change first name, put in a different first name (sometimes Timothy, sometimes Tim), their name didn't _fit_ in the field (too many characters, unexpected character encoding), trans people.

This should be expected by computer systems, and expected by staff.

dguido• 2 years ago

Strong recommend on using meow.com. You can get interest on your primary checking account, and easy access to high yield treasury management services.

I’ve been following the Evolve Bank fallout on the FinTech Weekly newsletter, and the whole situation scares me about Mercury. I used to bank with them, but the sanctions by the Federal Reserve and the continued disclosures about lacking KYC and money laundering controls has me worried there are other problems.

dogleash• 2 years ago

Step 1. Think "this is probably fine"

Step 2. Find out it's actually a fucking nightmare

Step 3. Finally stop thinking everyone who worries about obstacles you assume don't happen are tinfoil hat weirdos.

It's always step 3 that gets people.

camsinko• 2 years ago

I went to Chase Bank to withdraw cash for a Facebook deal, and they refused because I didn’t have their app. The teller couldn’t verify my driver's license or passport, insisting the only way was through their app's 2FA. This is exactly why I stick with credit unions—where I can work with real humans who actually help.

Arch485• 2 years ago

I know someone who had an almost identical experience with CIBC in Canada: accounts (including payroll) completely frozen, nobody to contact, nobody who can help. Never found out the reason, either.

fswd• 2 years ago

my story with them: Chase bank refused to cash their own Chase cashiers check. Seems crazy but I had to get a lawyer involved.

jxnlco14• 2 years ago

thankfully i just DM'd the mercury team and got a temp approval to deposit the 180k

AshamedCaptain• 2 years ago

"Computer says no" is the one customer support response that makes me move my business elsewhere.

aspenmayer• 2 years ago

For those unfamiliar with the reference:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_says_no

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0YGZPycMEU

For niche, zany sketch comedy, Little Britain is a gem.

nitwit005• 2 years ago

At a certain point in this story, it felt like time to file the lawsuit. They basically stole the money and wouldn't give it back to the owner.

MSFT_Edging• 2 years ago

That would probably be an expensive lawyer.

WaitWaitWha2• 2 years ago

I have been burned by a bank (stagecoach in red field) very similarly.

I now only do my financial transactions with smallish credit unions. Big enough that they can have the services I need, but small enough that my business is a large-ish part of the Unions' business.

This works internationally, not just US or Europe. Most nations have some sort of a member-owned financial cooperatives, equivalent to credit unions.

throwway1203852• 2 years ago

Yeah their abysmal handling of my wife's stolen checks convinced me that we need to dump them as fast as possible. One of the agents basically said "I'm not even going to bother asking my manager to expedite the funds. Don't even bother. They're just going to say no." My wife insisted, and so the agent went away for 60 seconds and came back and said "Okay those funds are back in your account have a nice day." Every interaction with their agents from their fraud department to the regular CSRs went like that. Even getting them to freeze the account didn't happen with the first or second agent she talked to.

ryandrake2• 2 years ago

Why would you say "stagecoach in red field" instead of Wells Fargo? I don't get why people are so coy about calling out terrible companies by name publicly. They're not going to kick your door in and shoot your dog. Do you think Wells Fargo (the terrible shitty bank) is going to actually search through HN looking for instances where users said their company name "Wells Fargo" and linked that company name "Wells Fargo" to their reputation "terrible and shitty"? When they find your username, are they going to scour the web to find your real name? And then, when they do, what then? You probably no longer do business with them so there's nothing much they can do in retaliation.

WaitWaitWha2• 2 years ago

I presume you are either in the US or Europe. I understand your point. Alas, not everyone is based in countries where civil liberties are not completely eroded. That said, even in the US civil cases with or without merit can destroy a business and individual.

mistercheph2• 2 years ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EBay_stalking_scandal

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Barnett_(whistleblower)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Lynch_(businessman)

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/aug/19/mike...

pickledish2• 2 years ago

Another story about a startup and chase, from the person who founded hashicorp, it's a fun read:

https://mitchellh.com/writing/my-startup-banking-story

(edited since at first I remembered it being more negative about chase in particular -- but it's really just funny!)

otteromkram4• 2 years ago

Did you read to the end?

I want to make it clear that Chase could've been an excellent banking partner. I never gave them the chance. I never told them what my business does or what I'd use the money for. I never talked to anyone (besides saying what I needed to get off the phone). This story isn't a cautionary tale about Chase, it is rather recounting my naivete as a young, first-time startup founder.

ungreased0675• 2 years ago

Why would any of that be necessary? They’re a bank, not your parents.

pickledish2• 2 years ago

Ah, you are right! it's been a while since I read the post, and I mis-remembered it as being more negative about chase than it was. I'll edit my comment as such, thanks for pointing it out

apercu3• 2 years ago

I've never used JP Morgan or Chase, but I recently inherited some stock. There was no way to transfer the stock in-kind to another brokerage, for some reason it needed to go from a JP Morgan account to another JP Morgan account. (I didn't want to cash the stock out immediately because I couldn't get info on the basis and what the capital gains taxes would be).

Anyway, sibling knew someone who worked at JP Morgan private bank and they were willing to do all the work so I said "sure".

Turns out Chase and JP Morgan are integrated on the backend but not Private bank. So the transfer couldn't go through.All in all this was 15-20 emails and multiple phone calls.

And then I was told to open a Chase individual investment account instead.

Not wanting to continue to burn time during work hours when I was super busy with a project, I drove 20 minutes to a Chase branch to open an account with an investment banker to make sure all went smoothly (instead of doing it online).

He couldn't open the account for me, couldn't get anyone on the phone, either. Turns out that the backend is connected enough with Private Bank that I had a profile in their system, but he couldn't "do" anything with it.

A few more emails and phone calls and the Chase investment banker sent me a link to open an account online. So I do that and let the banker that controlled the original stock account know the account details. But he still couldn't transfer the stock. That private bank profile still causing problems I guess.

I was given an 800 number to call private bank to get them to close the account. I spent about a half hour on hold before I hung up. I then contacted the banker I knew at Private Bank and informed him, he said he'd take care of it. Later that day he emailed me and said he had put in the order and I would get a confirmation.

I did get the confirmation but was informed it would take a few days. Once that was done I contacted the broker that controlled the stock account. He tried again, no dice.

He then decided to get licensed in my state so that he could create the account for me. That took another week or so.

And, I was told to close the Chase account. I did that, again, a couple days. By this time I'm 20-25 hours in with phone calls, emails, conversations with my siblings, have driven into the city twice, and so on.

Finally, after about an hour on the phone the next week, the broker creates my account and is able to execute the transfer. Of course, by this time the stock market had tanked and the stock had lost ~20% of its value, meaning I netted less than my siblings, and spent a ton of time.

What. A. Circus.

lisper7• 2 years ago

I didn't want to cash the stock out immediately because I couldn't get info on the basis and what the capital gains taxes would be.

You'd need to figure that out eventually anyway. Better sooner than later.

But in any case, you could have sold the stock, transferred the money, and then re-purchased the stock and simply reported it as a wash sale.

by this time the stock market had tanked

That can go either way. I've had stocks that I wanted to sell get held up, and go up in value in the meantime. So you have to just chalk that up to fate.

apercu3• 2 years ago

You'd need to figure that out eventually anyway. Better sooner than later.

100%

That can go either way. I've had stocks that I wanted to sell get held up, and go up in value in the meantime. So you have to just chalk that up to fate.

My plan was to immediately sell 50% of the stock (it was at an all-time high) immediately but now plans have changed. Oh well.

drfuchs• 2 years ago

Isn't your basis simply the price of the stock on the day your rich uncle died? What other information did you need?

apercu3• 2 years ago

That's basically what it is, but for some reason it took some time for the folks at Jp Morgan to figure it out. Probably because the person involved died years ago? I dunno....

josefritzishere• 2 years ago

Diversify your banking. Every individual and business shoudl ahve at least two completely unrelated banks. I actualy reccomend one be a credit union. Ift gives you a fall back position to protect against this kind of situation.

mattmaroon2• 2 years ago

I feel like these sort of corner cases likely can happen with any bank.

The real question is: why did it take months of having their vital money withheld before trying to go around the bottom rung support that was clearly not going to help? By like week 2 I’d be talking to an attorney and I bet a letter from them would get it cleared up fast. (Perhaps I’m wrong though.)

jxnlco14• 2 years ago

I was in Canada, and I was also quite stressed with some keynote presentations I had to give, planning my move back to the US, and applying for my O-1 visa.

I figured I'd sort it all out by the time I moved. However, I may have been a little too relaxed about the situation and stressed out about other stuff

mattmaroon2• 2 years ago

Well in any case, I’m sorry that happened to you. It sounds awful.

akeck• 2 years ago

Obligatory reference to patio11's write up on banks: https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/seeing-like-a-bank/

kevdoran• 2 years ago

Mercury is a fintech company, not an FDIC-insured bank

Funny enough, I recently opened a Chase business checking because of this "bank not bank" news: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40480159

I still have a different business checking with a Mercury-like fintech provider. Chase freezes accounts, Fintech startups go under.

Chase already froze my business credit card once. I had to send them a deed of a house that I had already sold. It made little sense.

On the fintech bank side, my biggest client cannot make transfers to that account. Their payment system throws an error when they try to ACH to it. That plus the news about Synapse going under made me want a chase.

So I don't really know what to do. I now have multiple business accounts, multiple personal accounts. I want to find like a good credit union maybe?

What's clear is being in small business requires building tolerance for money uncertainty that wasn't as necessary when I was an employee.

I feel for the author. That all sucks. I enjoyed the 'Yuppie Nightmare' reference. Many thanks for sharing.

unyttigfjelltol• 2 years ago

There is a middle ground called "community banking".

badlibrarian• 2 years ago

Many community banks are little more than fronts for pcbb.com or fisglobal.com at this point.

galaxyLogic6• 2 years ago

I got a letter from Citibank demanding I prove my business was legit. I sent them a "secure message"(on their online site) containing the documents. But(according to them) they could not open those secure documents. They called me and asked for the password for that secure message. That was of course a red flag so I went to the local branch and asked them to send those documents to whoever it was that was requesting them.

Going to the local branch stopped them from sending any more demands for documents so it seems it really was Citibank who had sent those demands to me. But for them to ask for my password in a phone conversation is a huge Red Flag right? And they never sent me a confirmation that issue was resolved.

I should have reported them for asking for my password, but did not know where should I submit such a report.

Big banks are too big.

neilv2• 2 years ago

I feel bad for the people who went through this Kafkaesque nightmare.

After months of back-and-forth, [...] I finally got my money.

I didn't find any mention of a lawyer in the article.

When you realize you're dealing with people who aren't operating in good faith, seriously consider consulting a lawyer.

(A harder problem is realizing when people aren't operating in good faith. Especially if you're a Pollyanna, or decent folk dropped into the big city.)

consider using my referral link to open an account with Mercury

I'm not going to click a kickback link on a piece like this, and I'm going to disregard the recommendation.

If the goal is to warn people away from something, or to make a positive recommendation for something else, why add an obvious conflict of interest that didn't have to be there?

stainablesteel• 2 years ago

yeah this sounds like some kind of corporate fraud, i imagine they were blocking people out and moving their money around to cover their own books after something went wrong, there should be a payout

serial_dev• 2 years ago

It assumes you know which one was first, the chicken or the egg.

One option is that the author found/got a referral deal with an alternative provider, so thought they could write this article complaining about a competitor.

Or... They were so pissed with Chase due to this nightmare they had to go through, they looked for alternatives, found something, so they mentioned it in the post.

Disregarding is fine as you don't know if they are honest, at the same time I wouldn't attribute evil intentions either.

It's like when a native iOS developer says the best apps are truly native. It could be that they tell you that so that you hire them and their niche stays strong... or they really believe it and that's why they are iOS developers.

jxnlco14• 2 years ago

after my money was withheld i messaged a mercury investor to see if i could get set up asap, they set me up so i could get paid and reroute all my payroll.

jxnlco14• 2 years ago

i did it cause mercury helped me out a lot.

shahzaibmushtaq2• 2 years ago

Everyone wants to open their first bank account in one of the big banks, I was one of those. Later I found out that not-so-famous big/small banks are far superior for SMBs.

Revolut, Mercury, Meow and Payoneer (Personally using myself) are all leading online businesses.

ianhawes2• 2 years ago

Payoneer should be not be on that list. They recently shut down our account with zero warning. Fortunately we did not funds with them, but the account was 6 years old and had processed a considerable amount of funds outgoing to contractors.

shahzaibmushtaq2• 2 years ago

Have you tried contacting Payoneer to find out what actually happened?

Sometimes, their built-in protection system flags unusual activity and takes action but that doesn't mean businesses using Payoneer should stop promoting Payoneer.

tedmcory77• 2 years ago

The real question here for the author is: What are the three banks that you now use? We use high availability and redundancy for everything else, why not business?

jxnlco14• 2 years ago

Mercury, Meow Schwab chase (remaining personal account)

galaxyLogic6• 2 years ago

Consider also that you probably could not sue your Bank if you wanted to. All the small print you agreed to.

This was brought to my awareness due to the recent news about how somebody could not sue Disney because they had opened a Disney+ streaming account.

We need financial reform customer protections. Let us hope the party that fights for big businesses and billionaires does not win in the next election.

ianhawes2• 2 years ago

Ugh, that lawsuit is the new McDonalds hot coffee.

Front line lawyers at megacorps will respond with anything and their argument about arbitration because of Disney+ (they also claimed arbitration because the plaintiff did in fact also buy a park ticket on their website) was withdrawn shortly after the media shitstorm.

galaxyLogic6• 2 years ago

Thank God for the media

dehrmann• 2 years ago

That doesn't mean the arbitrator would have agreed with the bank.

galaxyLogic6• 2 years ago

Right, but there must be a reason why the Bank put that clause into the fine print. It must be beneficial to them, I assume, else they would not have included that clause right?

pjdemers• 2 years ago

I used to have a side gig as the CFO for a not-for-profit (an unpaid volunteer). Anyway, this organization was over 125 years old, associated with a larger organization 80 years older than that, and had the same primary bank for 70 years ... Anyway, my treasurer, who was very smart, insisted we keep enough cash to run for 3 months in a secondary bank. Just in case we were locked out of our primary bank.

jxnlco14• 2 years ago

this this this

Terr_• 2 years ago

Not quite the same scenario, but it makes me think of how a startup I know dodged a bullet with the Silicon Valley Bank collapse [0] partly due to having some other money elsewhere Just In Case. (But in a major part due to bailouts, of course.)

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_Silicon_Valley_Ban...

ikekkdcjkfke• 2 years ago

Is it possible to use a european bank with eId totp physical chip with fallback to passport scan?

msarrel• 2 years ago

In 2008 Capital One did the same thing to me. It almost destroyed not only my business but also the rest of my life. They were completely unwilling to work with me and they said that they suspected fraud. There was no fraud, I proved there was no fraud, they still kept my account locked for over 30 days.

Yeah no one tells you when you start your business that your own bank is preying on you.

rglover4• 2 years ago

This is why Bitcoin is ideal. You can hold and transfer any amount, any time of day, without fear of surprises like this.

Would I use it as a primary cash account for my business today? No, because of the obvious exchange rate/price swings. But long-term, moving toward Bitcoin as a settlement layer (i.e., a modern SWIFT) would solve a ton of problems and avoid situations like this. The more people that do that/normalize it, the more stable the price in other currencies, too.

I get that people like to hate on it because it's not a perfect solution to everything, but in a hostile unpredictable environment, it's a life saver.

bootlooped2• 2 years ago

I don't see why having a different settlement layer would prevent the bank from freezing money that they have custody of.

rglover4• 2 years ago

It removes the bank from the equation. The point here being that you keep some of your funds in Bitcoin so that, in the event you have to deal with something like this, you can still find a means to get people paid.

Long-term, if everyone does larger transactions in Bitcoin (e.g., payroll, invoice payments, etc), then problems like this never occur.

cultofmetatron2• 2 years ago

solana seems t be even better for that tech wise. but yea, bitcoin is incumbant here

rglover4• 2 years ago

Solana is centralized. The network should never go offline/have outages or be vulnerable to bad actors. At best, Bitcoin has the 51% attack problem which would require insane resources and convincing node operators to follow a fork of the network.

nonameiguess• 2 years ago

This doesn't make any sense. The problems a business faces are:

- Receive money from customers. If the customers don't have Bitcoin, they're not going to pay you in Bitcoin.

- Pay your employees and suppliers. Very few of them will accept Bitcoin.

- Borrow money to cover differences between revenue and expenses. The entity loaning you the money may or may loan you Bitcoin, but what difference does it make? They're going to give you the same scrutiny and terms as any other lender in any currency.

- Security for your enormous wads of liquid assets. Banks have vaults and FDIC insurance. Bitcoin has nothing on its own, and if you use an exchange, they can do exactly what a bank does and freeze your funds, or in many cases, just steal it and spend it themselves.

You say later you just mean "well, you can withdraw some of your country's legal tender from the bank and store it as Bitcoin in case you need it later." You can just diversify the same way everyone else suggests by using multiple banks. If you trust zero banks, you can withdraw cash and stuff it under your mattress. You can loan it to a local drug lord. You can buy gold. You can buy forex and put it in a foreign bank. I guess some of these options are less liquid than others, but what advantage are you really claiming keeping your rainy day fund as Bitcoin has over anything else? Generally speaking, businesses tend to stick with things like commercial paper and treasuries and that has seemingly worked out fine.

I wish we had real verifiable base rates on the probability that a business will go under because it's cash and near cash equivalents line item was seized by authorities even though they legitimately did nothing wrong versus a business will go under because it decided to keep all of its funds in cryptocurrency and it either tanked overnight, they lost the key, SBF took their money because he felt like it, or whatever other reasons might happen.

Would you seriously bet the former is more likely than the latter?

rglover4• 2 years ago

I didn't say keep all of your cash in Bitcoin.

In the current epoch, I'd cite Murphy's Law and say that anything is possible and it's wise for a CEO/CFO to plan ahead in case this happens. Bitcoin is one among several options and an excellent safeguard against corruption, political persecution, etc.

As for exchange hacks and lost keys, the business that relies on this will intelligently keep funds off-exchange/self-custody and use multisig wallets with signatures held by multiple officers of the company.

Today, it's the "nuclear option." But if enough people start transacting in Bitcoin routinely, it's the ideal future.

commercialnix7• 2 years ago

If the customers don't have Bitcoin, they're not going to pay you in Bitcoin.

Every customer my firm has offered a 15% discount if paying with BTC via Coinbase has taken it.

commercialnix7• 2 years ago

because it decided to keep all of its funds in cryptocurrency and it either tanked overnight, they lost the key, SBF took their money because he felt like it

Tell us you don't comprehend cryptocurrency without telling us you don't...

HeavenFox• 2 years ago

I think this situation, while extremely unfortunate, is just the natural consequences of how banks are regulated in the US. The big banks face a constant threat by the government: if your customer does something illegal with your product, YOU will be fined millions of dollars. Therefore, if your activities have any resemblance of money laundering, they'd rather lose your business than lose millions. Different banks have different "sensitivity", and Chase, unfortunately, is one of the more sensitive ones.

What are the solutions? Laws should be passed to protect customers' rights in the event of an account closure; banks should probably be provided some safe harbor so they aren't as skittish; and in the meantime, bank with a smaller credit union that have a smaller target on their back, and also if something breaks you can yell at someone who can actually fix it.

LadyCailin• 2 years ago

Complains about big banking. Hawks a referral code for a non-FDIC insured “bank”.

Some people never learn, I guess?

jxnlco14• 2 years ago

mercury ceo dm'ed me to check in, honestly at least i can message the ceo

bdcravens• 2 years ago

Chase stole about $900 from me from an account I setup just for freelance income. This was during the pandemic when I had to take a 2/3 haircut in my day job to keep the company afloat (we did, and all is well now). Every time I'd try to reach out to try to get answers, I'd get bounced around among different foreign call centers. After months of trying to resolve it I just gave up. (I could and should seek legal recourse, but I just didn't have the emotional energy for it at the time)

I will never do business with them again, even though their many branches (literally have one across the street from my office) would make it convenient.

0x5f3759df-i• 2 years ago

Chase really has the worst phone customer service. I foolishly used one of their 0% interest promos to buy some hardware and when I was charged interest anyway due to their screwup in how my payment was applied he told me:

“since you have enough money in your account to pay this off I don’t know why you are using this plan at all. These are intended for low income customers”

and did nothing to solve the problem.

raincom• 2 years ago

File a complaint about Chase with CFPB, and you will get your money back. Never directly with Chase.

https://fairshake.com/chase-bank/file-a-complaint/

screye• 2 years ago

Knew this had to be Jason. Poor guy has been put through the ringer. Running into a new update on twitter has me like, "How is this still going on?".

jxnlco14• 2 years ago

brutal 'it'll be over once i visit' 'i'll be over when i send the paperwork' it'll be over when...

cruppelt• 2 years ago

fun following this debacle on twitter

PaulDavisThe1st• 2 years ago

When I read these kinds of stories, and the comments on them, I feel it would vastly more useful for people to document positive interactions with financial services.

Am I shilling for banks? I hope not. It just seems that at this point anyone who imagines the banks are going to work for you, the customer, has not been paying attention and/or is delusional.

Finding out that SolarFlower Bank in Hometown, Your State has provided exceptional banking services is massively more useful than hearing, once again that BigBankCorp are terrible.

eduction3• 2 years ago

Blog post dated a month from now? “2024/9/21”. Not exactly helping me believe your story.

eduction3• 2 years ago

Also why is there a post dated 2025? https://jxnl.co/writing/2025/06/15/my-self-reflection-on-suc...

eduction3• 2 years ago

I feel bad for you and not a fan of Chase’s behavior here but I would never open a business banking account in a country different from the one I’m living in unless I had an extremely good reason (like a statutory requirement). Particularly if I hadn’t fully secured permission to be in that country.

Even then, if I was going to do it I would want to be sitting physically across from a bank officer to make it happen, not online. I opened business checking from BofA online years ago and it was a total nightmare even living a short walk from the branch, being a US citizen, etc. They did freeze it once or twice. Never again.

77pt776• 2 years ago

Always have your money split between multiple unrelated banks in different jusrisdictions.

Always have multiple debit and credit cards between different institutions.

If possible avoid the USA banking system, although thats easier said than done if you live there.

These are good practices for both professional, company and personal finances.

nottorp• 2 years ago

Stupid question from outside the anglosphere: what's the difference between a bank and a credit union?

bluGill2• 2 years ago

Credit unions are owned by the people with money in them. A coop bank.

There are a few other legal differences as well, but the ownership is the big difference.

Brian-Puccio• 2 years ago

Credit unions are nonprofit, member/cooperatively owned financial institutions.

Banks are for profit (and likely publicly traded).

cjs_ac• 2 years ago

Credit unions are cooperatives owned by their customers.

jachee• 2 years ago

A credit union is ultimately owned by its members, and generally serves internal interests over pure profit. As a result, they tend to usually be less cutthroat and have lower fees, but also lower interest rates on the flip side.

readyplayernull2• 2 years ago

The main differences between banks and credit unions are that banks are for-profit institutions owned by shareholders, while credit unions are not-for-profit organizations owned by their member account holders. Credit unions typically have lower fees, higher interest rates on savings, and a focus on serving their members' financial needs, rather than maximizing profits like banks. Credit unions also have membership requirements, while banks are open to the general public. Lastly, banks are regulated by federal and state banking authorities, while credit unions are regulated by the National Credit Union Administration.

ciupicri2• 2 years ago

Is the money stored at a credit union insured or can you lose it all?

spiffytech• 2 years ago

Maybe it was SARs?

In the specific case of “Why did the bank close my account, seemingly for no reason? Why will no one tell me anything about this? Why will no one take responsibility?”, the answer is frequently that the bank is following the law. As we’ve discussed previously, banks will frequently make the “independent” “commercial decision” to “exit the relationship” with a particular customer after that customer has had multiple Suspicious Activity Reports filed. SARs can (and sometimes must!) be filed for innocuous reasons and do not necessarily imply any sort of wrongdoing.
SARs are secret, by regulation. See 12 CFR § 21.11(k)(1) from the Office of Comptroller of the Currency:
No national bank, and no director, officer, employee, or agent of a national bank, shall disclose a SAR or any information that would reveal the existence of a SAR. Any national bank, and any director, officer, employee, or agent of any national bank that is subpoenaed or otherwise requested to disclose a SAR, or any information that would reveal the existence of a SAR, shall decline to produce the SAR or such information, citing this section and 31 U.S.C. 5318(g)(2)(A)(i)...

https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/seeing-like-a-bank/

e40• 2 years ago

This is what makes the most sense. SARs are terrifying.

Algemarin2• 2 years ago

Reading anecdotes like this is just so terrifying, and there appears to be absolutely no recourse.

These stories can, and do, happen to anyone at any bank. And what can we do about it? It seems like the answer is a glib 'nothing'.

mistercheph2• 2 years ago

These days, its best to always travel with a retained team of attorneys, ready to intimidate and threaten litigation against anyone that tries to treat you like a kafka protagonist.

Algemarin2• 2 years ago

I just feel like the bank has infinitely more resources than I could ever have in terms of hiring more attorney-power.

imroot• 2 years ago

I had a similar experience with US Bank. Business account, over $50k lost; they said that they can 'terminate their relationship with me at any time for any or no reason whatsoever,' and didn't have to return the money.

The Fraud and Trust VP seemed shocked when I mentioned to her that it wasn't a big deal for me, and that I had my personal accounts with a credit union.

It's been 4+ years. I've written the money off.

ksenzee• 2 years ago

For $50k I would at least have a lawyer write them a nastygram. Wow.

rvba• 2 years ago

I went with someone from my family to close a bank account. The bank teller received an error message that said something like "please visit the bank personally". It was a message on her computer.

Is that on the shitty bank rules, or shitty software? After 2 hours and the bank stuff calling some helpdesk they managed to do it.

commercialnix7• 2 years ago

By day 2 I'd have filed a lawsuit seeking over $5-million in combined actual and punitive damages. You have to speak the language they understand, anything else is a waste of time.

RecycledEle• 2 years ago

Let me explain this to those who are not familiar with the American system of kleptocracy: Banks freeze account to steal the money, not because they suspect wrongdoing. The protagonist in the article finally showed Chase it would be more expensive to keep the money than to give it back, so they gave it back.

mrbluecoat• 2 years ago

Sadly, also happens with smaller banks that cater to startups. Happened to us with https://www.grasshopper.bank

graycat• 2 years ago

Grim story.

Apparently banks can be tough to work with for obscure reasons.

Own little case:

While in NYS (US, New York State), did personal banking with, false name, XYZ Bank. Somehow I was assigned to a particular branch office of XYZ in NYS.

Moved to TN (Tennessee). Eventually ran out of paper checks, so ordered a new supply. The account was "joint" with my wife; thus, her name was also printed on the checks. Since my wife had been dead for 20+ years, I guessed (first mistake) that it would be more appropriate to have her name removed from the new batch of checks I was ordering.

Did get the new checks and used a few (mostly I don't pay with paper checks).

Then got some communications from "my" branch office of XYZ bank in NYS that I should come to the branch office and sign my name to show that I am the real owner or whatever of the account.

Apparently due to the new checks without my wife's name, someone at XYZ Bank was afraid that I was doing something nasty to my wife, to separate her from our joint money, etc.

Soooo, they wanted me to drive from TN to NYS for WHAT THE F????

So, I called and got sent to "my" XYZ Bank branch office in NYS.

On the phone to that office I explained:

"My wife died 20+ years ago. You are welcome to drive to Indiana, to the little town of Warsaw, take the main road south out of town, drive about 15 miles, turn left, east, to the little village of Claypool. There you will find a school and a church. The church has a graveyard. There you will find the tombstone of my wife ....

For my signature, you already have hundreds of copies of that. I will NOT drive to NYS. For more I will gladly talk to you. But I will not talk to lawyers. If you involve a lawyer, then I will immediately close out my account. If you want, I'll order a new batch of checks that again has my wife's name printed on the checks."

That worked. Otherwise I like XYZ Bank a lot. But, since XYZ Bank has no branch office near me in Tennessee, really I should get an account with a bank with an office where I live. Actually, while in NYS, I did open a "business" account at a branch of Chase. It was a small branch, small office, no Greek columns, just a few nice women, trying to be a local bank, for businesses, yes, but also for consumers. Likely gave them the form I'd just gotten from NYS "Doing business as". Checking, Chase does have a small branch where I live. And I have a small balance in that account.

Hmm. Sounds like anyone with a SMB (small, medium business) should have more bank accounts, not fewer!!! Sounds like, before my business starts getting revenue, I should get an account at a local bank where I can be known in person and use that as my main business bank.

Also lesson: Banks are legalistic, have too many rules, have low common sense, like lawyers too much, can be simplistic close to brain-dead, tend to be paranoid, and can generate expensive legal problems. Go slow on crypto, more than the necessary one LLC (limited liability company), etc.

Addendum:

For this discussion about banking, we all should understand at least a little about financial institutions

SMB -- Small Medium Business

KYC -- Know Your Customer

SAR -- Suspicious Activity Reports

BSA -- Bank Secrecy Act

xyst• 2 years ago

good ole “anti-money laundering” (AML) system false positives. Generate too many of these and the risk departments can unilaterally close the accounts.

If you ever needed a reason for a decentralized finance, this is among the top reasons.

itbeho• 2 years ago

I've had issues with both my personal and business accounts at Chase. Mostly due to the inept local branch manager. I've also had deposits flagged and delayed from clients that have been paying me for years with never an issue previously.

I'd love to switch to a new bank. Any recommendations?

rootsudo• 2 years ago

Mercury back isn’t a solution. They closed my account the first week it was opened. I didn’t need an extra bank account but I wanted to open 2-3 at the time and did so without any other issue at the different banks I chose.

I’ve used chase and other big banks to nonissue outside Zelle crap.

So I’ll wait to see the same thing with mercury. But my experience with them sucked and whenever someone Hails they were their savior I will post my experience.

Mercury bank sucks, etc.

Cautionary tale on using Chase bank for indie business

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