Night owls' cognitive function 'superior' to early risers, study suggests

https://www.theguardian.com/science/article/2024/jul/11/night-owls-cognitive-function-superior-to-early-risers-study-suggests

by rntn • 2 years ago

85 83 2 years ago

theguardian.com

jauntywundrkind2• 2 years ago

I was deeply touched by PKD describing night as the time outside of the hot baking heat of the Palm Tree Garden, masked from God's hot watchful eye. A time open to free & liquid consideration.

My inhibitions & perfectionism slip away, my barriers fall, and the intrepid explorer in me comes out. I can work without constant self review, try things that I would want to consider more deeply in the day. The night is glorious & great.

palad1n• 2 years ago

Rabbit hole: https://warinheaven.net

helloworld42024• 2 years ago

I absolutely hate programming during the day!

Working from home and working at night - for me this is the most quiet, energetic and productive time.

gwervc• 2 years ago

I wish I could have work hours more fitted to my sleep pattern. Everyone is loosing including the company I work for since I'm staying at bed until the daily, then do basically jack shit in the morning.

yieldcrv• 2 years ago

this is not comparing owls to humans, in case you were wondering

actionfromafar• 2 years ago

You must be one of those night owls. :)

_kulang• 2 years ago

I mean… when did they test the subjects? How much of a day had they had before the tests?

xpl2• 2 years ago

From the article:

Jacqui Hanley, head of research funding at Alzheimer’s Research UK, said: “Without a detailed picture of what is going on in the brain, we don’t know if being a ‘morning’ or ‘evening’ person affects memory and thinking, or if a decline in cognition is causing changes to sleeping patterns.”

wiradikusuma• 2 years ago

I'm a night owl, and I have this guilty feeling that I don't belong because most C-level or VPs I know are morning people who hit the gym after waking up at 5 AM. At least that's what they told me.

MikeTheGreat• 2 years ago

This seems like a good time to bring up Imposter Syndrome :)

If you, or anyone else, hasn't heard of it then please definitely look it up. It's a short, quick idea and it's good for helping when I feel like I don't belong somewhere.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome

EDIT: This is actually a better explanation, I think. Particularly the first paragraph: https://www.verywellmind.com/imposter-syndrome-and-social-an...

smivan• 2 years ago

I'm a night owl C-suite (CTO), but with all of my peers as you describe.

It's possible to make it work, you have to be very firm on your boundaries. One option that worked for me was to explain that I can effectively do more timezone coverage despite being in the same Geo-zone.

It also helped to showcase the work I do while they are offline, so when they wake up they see a column of work that has been bounced back across to their plate.

It is definitely hard though, and takes the right crowd who respects you enough to make it work.

It's probably impossible to do this as a CEO though.

Terr_• 2 years ago

I have this guilty feeling that I don't belong

For your amusement, a satirical take on "The Hustle" that might also have a little but of uncomfortably-too-real moments for some folks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_o7qjN3KF8U

anonzzzies• 2 years ago

I went from a night owl to a morning person; I am vastly more productive as a morning person. No idea about brain function though. I just enjoy finishing all my work at lunch time these days.

kybernetikos• 2 years ago

Yes I was wondering if there might be an executive function vs cognitive function divide.

nottorp3• 2 years ago

I wonder if it's the time of the day or...

Night people tend to go to bed when they're tired and wake up when they're done sleeping.

Early risers either use an alarm or go to bed / wake up at fixed (i.e. forced) times, mostly due to external constraints.

Is the difference really between scheduled sleep and sleeping when you feel like it?

readthenotes1• 2 years ago

I have met a fair number of early risers who simply go to bed early.

mjevans• 2 years ago

I would really love to have the Sleep ability the protagonist from The Long Dark has. Unless they're fully awake, as long as they're a little tired they can sleep until fully rested.

I've long assumed it's probably due to people who'd do bad things with any sort of useful, "I'd like to go to sleep in the next 15 min, oh and no side effects if the fire alarm goes off in 30 min" kinds of drugs that they aren't a common OTC item.

xen0• 2 years ago

Going to bed early and waking up early (relative to my schedule today) is something I _can_ do.

I had to do it for several years.

I felt like absolute shit every morning. I felt sick and couldn't eat before 10.

Every Day.

I don't have that now I can get up later.

geewee2• 2 years ago

I'm generally an early riser, and I just go to bed early and (generally) wake up a little before my alarm. Even if I go to bed late I wake up at around the same time (even though I might like to sleep in) I don't think that early risers are primarily due to external constraints hold.

nottorp3• 2 years ago

My theory is that your subconscious knows you have to wake up at a fixed time and that's extra stress, even if it wakes you up before the alarm. As you're saying, it even cuts into your sleep time.

One point in favor of this theory is that even I, a night owl, manage sometimes to wake up before the alarm on the rare days that I do need to wake up early on.

47282847• 2 years ago

I wake up early regardless of when I go to sleep and with no alarm. I generally go to sleep whenever I feel like (and circumstances allow).

dheera• 2 years ago

I just automatically wake up after about 7.5 hours. I hate alarms and it wrecks my entire day if I sleep any less than 6.5 hours.

I can rise early without an alarm just by sleeping early.

The stupid article doesn't link the actual paper and I'm lazy to search for it but I wouldn't be surprised if this is a correlation-not-causation situation, since a lot of unskilled work does in fact require rising early while a lot of intellectual work has flexible hours.

Fire-Dragon-DoL• 2 years ago

I'm like you, but I fall asleep only when I'm tired and that's not consistent.

voidUpdate2• 2 years ago

Are you sure that's the right way around? I'm a night person and I have to use alarms and stuff to be able to wake up at the right time, Because I tend to stay awake late into the night. I only wake up when I'm done sleeping at the weekends, when I don't have other obligations in the morning, such as work

nottorp3• 2 years ago

You’re an oppressed night person then. It probably takes your work iq down a few points.

But I really hope the article isn't measuring people who wake up forcefully.

MattPalmer10862• 2 years ago

No, early risers also go to bed when they're tired and wake up when they're done sleeping.

Having to get up at a time that doesn't suit you due to external constraints is something that can affect anyone.

It's just that early risers get tired earlier (and fast) and then often wake up quickly, fully awake. My brother has always been like this.

I'm a night owl. I get tired more slowly, go to bed later, and take a while to fully wake up too.

It seems to me there is a difference in metabolism as well as the time we get tired. Early birds are like sprinters, fast but short distance. Night owls are more like marathon runners, not so fast but keep going longer. I don't have scientific evidence for this, it's simply how it appears to me.

a_e_k• 2 years ago

As a night owl myself, I've often thought I might prefer it if the Earth turned on a 25 or 26 hr cycle.

soco• 2 years ago

Or the early risers wake up fully awake because The Early Bird Catches The Worm hop hop quick quick jog to wake up, while the night owls can't be arsed with such motivational slogans and peacefully take their time. Not very different from what you're saying, just trying to detail it.

collyw5• 2 years ago

No, early risers also go to bed when they're tired and wake up when they're done sleeping.

Nope.I end up waking up early when I like it or not. so I force myself to go to bed early as i like sleeping. Shame I am not very goo at it.

banish-m4• 2 years ago

I'll agree through biased rationalization. It's 1:33 am now and have more tasks to finish rather than procrastinating on HN. Later folks.

Murky3515• 2 years ago

Working at a company and keeping an early morning routine is absolutely brutal to my productivity. I'm a zombie for about 4/5ths of the day, and I start winding up around end of day. Then all night evening and into the night I'm high performing, only to force myself to sleep so I can wake up early again the next day and repeat.

Yes I've tried melatonin, morning full-spectrum light therapy (incl sunlight), nighttime blue light filters, exercise, restricted night diet, alcohol + caffeine + sugar abstinence, and more that I'm sure I forgot about. Morning productivity just doesn't work for me. The world isn't made for night owl workers.

__loam• 2 years ago

Remote work during Covid was so nice because you could sleep at natural times and not get judged for it.

beagle3• 2 years ago

It didn’t completely solve it for me, but 10,000 IU of Viyamin D3 early in the morning and making sure I get >100gr of protein per day made a huge difference for me after nothing else did (have tried most on your list).

Being a vegetarian, the 100gr of protein doesn’t happen on its own, the way it does for many carnivores. I have to pay attention to it, or I end up with 30-50 which isn’t sufficient.

cassianoleal• 2 years ago

the way it does for many carnivores

If you mean actual carnivores (mostly eat meat, with some other animal products - eggs, dairy...), that may be right. For most people who are omnivorous, >100g protein per day is not as easy to get, especially since most people's meals are carb-heavy.

It doesn't help that general guidance seems float around 45-55g per day.

On average, men should eat 55g and women 45g of protein daily. https://www.bbc.co.uk/food/articles/should_you_worry_about_h...
Most adults need around 0.75g of protein per kilo of body weight per day (for the average woman, this is 45g, or 55g for men). https://www.bhf.org.uk/informationsupport/heart-matters-maga...

MichaelRo2• 2 years ago

I'm not a morning person either, although by afternoon I'm fully functional.

I recall when I was younger trying to adopt a "early bird gets the worm" routine. Went to sleep at 9 PM, woke up at 5 AM, drank a coffee, went out in the chill of the morning for a vigorous jog, came back into the apartment, drank another coffee ... then went back to bed and slept like a baby until around 9. Going back on the memory lane, school was a nightmare. With it's start at 8 AM and wake up at 6:30, I mostly spent it in a tormented fuzzy stupor.

Now I kinda accepted there's literally nothing I can do to wake up my brain "on the double". Thanks God for WFH, sleep till 9, start work at 10, I'm almost functional. By noon it's all engines running.

waihtis• 2 years ago

I have had similar internal clock issues as you

Please try adding two (or potentially three) more supplements:

- 10g of glycine before bedtime

- 5g of creatine per day with a meal

These two along with sufficient magnesium have eliminated my sleep related problems I struggled with for an extended time (most of my life, in fact)

TurkishPoptart• 2 years ago

What issues did these solve for you? My issue is waking up repeatedly in the night. I remember magnesium being helpful for this though.

emadda• 2 years ago

Why the Creatine? What does the Glycine do?

collyw5• 2 years ago

Smoke some weed in the evening and go to bed early.

mnk47• 2 years ago

Take with a grain of salt, but I've read that weed can really affect sleep quality. Like Benadryl, you fall asleep but don't really rest.

8474_s• 2 years ago

IIRC teenagers/children suffer greatly from this at the morning, with none of them being "morning people", as this is likely some 'learned habit' driven into people by force. https://time.com/6206470/school-start-times-research/

baxtr2• 2 years ago

That’s why I believe switching to permanent summer time would be a big mistake and would make kids suffer a lot more than they already do.

Summer time in winter would mean getting up 1h earlier, in most locations.

EDIT: for those questioning the effect, because “school would still start at the same time (7:45 am)”.

Imagine if we didn’t change 1 hour but instead 12h, and then still says: “why don’t get up? My clock says it’s 7 am!”

We do have biological clocks and ideally these are in sync with our real world clocks.

curiousigor• 2 years ago

Quite honestly I particularly don't care if we stick to summer or winter time.

As long as I can wake up consistently at the same time and not have my sleep schedule destroyed for a couple of weeks twice per year. This clock changing business really messes me up and I see no actual benefit of it today.

thefz• 2 years ago

That is... not how DST works.

echelon2• 2 years ago

That’s why I believe switching to permanent summer time would be a big mistake and would make kids suffer a lot more than they already do.

But school would start at the same time regardless. They'd still have to show up at 7:45 AM in the summer and the winter. (And 9-5s would still be 9-5s.)

Year-round summer time does mean more daylight to enjoy after work, which would probably be an economic boon to stores and restaurants if it enhances after work leisure.

cyann• 2 years ago

The EU will switch to permanent winter time as well: https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2022/10/28/when-will-the-...

collyw5• 2 years ago

Spain effectively has the opposite. It's an hour ahead of London despite Grenwich meridian passing through both.

Actually Spain seems far better than England, as the daylight is more in line with sleeping hours. If the sunrise is 7am in Spain when it's 6 am in London.

At the end of the day, time is just a number and we are able to adjust to it changing twice a year with relative ease. If you want to sleep longer, go to bed an hour earlier.

rpgwaiter• 2 years ago

I think it’s kinda nuts that we discuss changing what time it is instead of like, “we should start work and school later in the day”

I mean sure changing the clocks for DST is silly and we should stop, but the discussions are almost always really about “everyone hates waking up super early for work and school”. We can fix this without changing our clocks.

lossolo• 2 years ago

It was a nightmare for me. I'm a night owl. It was known in school that whenever I missed the first one to three lessons, it was because I was sleeping. Both the teachers and the other kids knew it. The optimal hours for me involve waking up around 1-2 PM and going to sleep around 4-5 AM.

Unbefleckt• 2 years ago

I used to be the same, then I started going for runs at around 3am and fixed my diet, screen habits, spent more time outdoors and stopped using artificial light as much as possible. After about a year of this self imposed routine I am now I'm an early person and have been for about 15 years.

rlpb• 2 years ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_disorder

acchow• 2 years ago

I was always perpetually tired until my late 20s so I just slept in every class and took naps at my desk at my job too.

osigurdson• 2 years ago

I suspect this study has no predictive value. Rather it is just something mildly interesting to cover as news.

Teleoflexuous2• 2 years ago

For the pure fun of breaking the narrative I found original article, it's here: https://bmjpublichealth.bmj.com/content/2/1/e001000

Time of day (or time after waking up per subject) when tests were administered has not been controlled. Cognitive abilities are mediated by wakefulness (not to mention, related for most people, digestive processes) cycle.

If '"Night owls" smarter than morning people' sounds more plausible than 'time since waking up and last meal predictive of cognitive performance' it's time to get one's identity checked. And I can't imagine 'journalists' from thrash like Sky not knowing that, which brings me to the final point: what is this link doing here?

regen7253• 2 years ago

And duplicated, two submissions got similar ~20ish upvotes about the same subject...

k310• 2 years ago

I'm both. Late to bed and early to rise. Some people just live ok with less than 8 hours sleep.

MichaelRo2• 2 years ago

Yeah, I heard that's how you get (early) dementia in your late years :)

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/not-getting-enough...

szundi• 2 years ago

I am pretty sure there is research proving the opposite

dweinus• 2 years ago

So many articles on this paper, none link to it: https://bmjpublichealth.bmj.com/content/2/1/e001000

In case you want other mental health tips from the study: "Individuals who abstained from alcohol showed lower cognitive scores than those who consumed alcohol"

Teleoflexuous2• 2 years ago

Copying comment from another thread of the same study (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40933910)

For the pure fun of breaking the narrative I found original article, it's here: https://bmjpublichealth.bmj.com/content/2/1/e001000

If '"Night owls" smarter than morning people' sounds more plausible than 'time since waking up and last meal predictive of cognitive performance' it's time to get one's identity checked. And I can't imagine 'journalists' from thrash like Sky (Guardian this time) not knowing that, which brings me to the final point: what is this link doing here?

antonvs• 2 years ago

what is this link doing here?

People fall for the clickbait because it tells them something they want to believe. Motivated reasoning is powerful.

(And for those who don't want to believe it, they may read the article anyway because they want to debunk the claim. It's perfect clickbait, targeting potentially 100% of the audience.)

xpl2• 2 years ago

To me being a night owl is an ability to do hyper focused work at night, free from daytime distractions (e.g. people talking, outdoor noise, meetings/calls/IMs/emails).

I just enjoy to sit in a dark silent room and do things when nothing gets in the way!

whimsicalism• 2 years ago

seems correlational to me

dmarchand90• 2 years ago

I really wish these public articles tried to give some estimate of the magnitude of the effect. Is this a big difference? Barely noticeable without using advanced statistics?

I often think of David Mitchell's commentary on whether stripes make you look fat: https://youtu.be/ISZyJ5MHApI?si=4_hJVLfsvMWWDXKE

more_corn• 2 years ago

Counterpoint: Google did a long-term study of employees. Everyone was more productive in the early hours of the day. Even people who identified as night owls. Cognitive function is different from productivity.

Night owls' cognitive function 'superior' to early risers, study suggests

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