Paris cycling numbers double in one year thanks to investment

https://momentummag.com/paris-cycling-numbers-double/

by Timothee • 2 years ago

269 208 2 years ago

adrianN2• 2 years ago

Given safe infrastructure cycling is one of the fastest most reliable forms of transportation in cities. No wonder more people ride if you improve the experience.

milkytron3• 2 years ago

It truly is. I moved to a city across my country that has pretty good bike infrastructure. I had never even considered riding a bike for transportation, but after experiencing somewhat good infrastructure that got me to my office faster than driving, I was blown away by how enjoyable, sustainable, and economical it can be.

davidw• 2 years ago

Using 'induced demand' for good - I love it.

People are under the impression that things "are just the way they are" in the US, but it is very much a political choice to not dedicate more funding to keeping people on bicycles safe from automobiles.

giraffe_lady• 2 years ago

I'm sure some people do but I know on HN specifically in most threads around american urban cycling you will see some extremely clear-eyed car advocates. They (rightly) recognize that better prioritizing cycling requires, to some extent, fewer resources allocated to car use and oppose it on those grounds.

Some of it is ignorance but a lot of it is not, and a continuing car-centric world is just their well understood and sincerely held value.

gambiting• 2 years ago

The thing that is somewhat counterintuitive is that countries with amazing cycling infrastructure are also very good for drivers because you just get less congestion on the roads. There are some great youtube videos about it - how driving across Amsterdam takes less time than covering 3 miles in LA, that kind of thing.

Like, if you like driving cars, a place like the Netherlands is great for it because you spend more time actually driving and not standing in traffic(because most people are out on bikes and not in cars).

dublinben• 2 years ago

Even as a driver, if you think about the second-order effects of getting more (other) people out of their cars, it becomes obvious that it would improve traffic for you. An enlightened self-interested driver would want to increase investment in alternatives to driving, since that is the only proven solution for congestion.

As a video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8RRE2rDw4k

bryanlarsen• 2 years ago

Almost every additional cyclist is one less car. And since bicycle infrastructure is a lot cheaper than vehicle infrastructure, spending a dollar on bicycle infrastructure can improve conditions for car drivers more than spending that dollar on car infrastructure.

pchristensen• 2 years ago

In the later chapters of The Power Broker, there are stories of transit advocates and driving advocates begging Robert Moses to preserve right of way for transit when building the Van Wyck Expressway and the Long Island Expressway. The expected traffic demand (~9k cars/hr) the day they opened was far beyond the capacity (1500 cars/hour/lane * 3 lanes). A transit line takes about the same space as one traffic lane, with a capacity of 30-40k/hour. Without provision for transit, the road wouldn't even be a good road for drivers, because everyone with no choice but to drive would overcrowd the road and create the congestion the road was supposed to alleviate.

This is setting aside all other considerations - urban design, air pollution, land and property value, tax revenue, health, neighborhood cohesion, etc. Roads without provision for transit and non-motorized travel don't even do the job of a road well.

throw0101d• 2 years ago

Using 'induced demand' for good - I love it.

Oh The Urbanity had a good video on this, "What People Get Wrong About Induced Demand":

In this video we explain why induced demand does apply to transit, walking, and cycling infrastructure, but with different consequences.

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wlld3Z9wRc

Transit, for example, can get better with more ridership: more train capacity is added to a line, and more frequent service may occur for better throughput. Both actions would improve service for each individual rider, so while while one may not want it "crowded", having it busy is good. While with roads, an individual driver may want enough traffic so that a street exists, any traffic beyond that would probably only slow you down.

There are also externalities: more walking, cycling, transit reduces pollution and can improve individual health and the collective health of the population. Driving does the opposite.

favflam• 2 years ago

I switched to cycling for transportation. Benefits: 1. way more access to the city 2. eliminated need to go to gym; transport time doubles as cardio time 3. freed up time to see people; 15 minutes door to door is hard to beat

I really hope US cities head in this direction. It is a no brainer for cities: 1. higher density -> lower taxes per person, higher tax rev per sqm 2. lower cost of living -> lower inflation 3. quieter; cars on streets are noisy 4. people see each other more; better social cohesion 5. kids are free from the house to do things

a_gnostic• 2 years ago

The first US asphalt roads were built by cycling clubs (1).

1) https://www.vox.com/2015/3/19/8253035/roads-cyclists-cars-hi...

lkbm• 2 years ago

I biked for transportation (and fun) for years and it was great. In 2022 I moved and had no bike for eight months and hurt my back ~four times in that period.

I got a new bike about a year ago and have had no back pain since (until randomly yesterday, but I'm 41, I guess it's expected that it'll happen occasionally).

Biking doesn't seem like a back exercise, but you are using your core and flexing it a lot, and for longer than you would on any standard core exercise.

Building exercise into your day to day life is incredible valuable. If you're lucky enough to be in a place where biking is viable, I highly recommend giving it a try. It's not for everyone, but given the right situation, I suspect the majority of people would find it a positive change to start biking more. (I suspect this is true for a lot of exercise, but biking has the benefit of being a productive workout—similar to chopping wood vs. lifting weights, except few of us need much wood chopped.)

JAlexoid• 2 years ago

Cycling is fairly heavy on your lower back and the need to balance yourself means that your core gets a huge hit a lot of the time.

Unless you have one of those lounger bikes, you're getting an exercise that hits almost everything below your ribs.

nradov• 2 years ago

Cycling is great! But it doesn't eliminate the need to go to the gym. People who rely on cycling as their only form of exercise tend to suffer from low bone density and unbalanced muscle development. Everyone should do resistance training as well.

teemur2• 2 years ago

There is also a somewhat amusing argument that cycling does not waste your time. you get every hour cycled back as hour added to your expected lifetime:

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/10/12/cycling-add-year...

triceratops2• 2 years ago

Yeah but it's more time when you're older instead of right now /s

vladms• 2 years ago

While its true that compared to 10 years ago cycling is much better served by the infrastructure, there are still large challenges ahead, and I would mention only two of them:

- many intersection are very poorly signaled if you are riding a bike (not sure for cars is much better) and old bike lanes setups put you in weird situations (ex: bike lane changing from "outside" of the road to "inside" of the road, without clear way to change from one to another)

- there is quite few temporary parking space for personal bikes. Velib works great until there is a rush hour and you either can't find bikes or a parking spot.

consp2• 2 years ago

While its true that compared to 10 years ago cycling is much better served by the infrastructure, there are still large challenges ahead

It takes decades (emphases on plural) in most places. Having seen it happen to my hometown from the start of the '90s until about halfway though the '10s as an example. And that was with a head start since in some places it was already done well. And that was in the often mentioned cyclist's Valhalla.

throwup2382• 2 years ago

And that was in the often mentioned cyclists Valhalla.

I’m confused by this analogy. Are cars Valkyries in this case, taking the souls of bikers off to Valhalla?

timy2shoes• 2 years ago

My wife and I visited Paris last summer and biked everywhere. It felt very safe, not as safe as Copenhagen but still safe. I hope that with more time, as more drivers get used to bikes on the road it will get safer and more people will bike, creating a positive feedback loop.

jauntywundrkind• 2 years ago

I'm a strong believer in road culture change happening. Biking in DC changed enormously when our bike share program showed up in 2008. Seeing casual chill people on slow bikes, often a little lost or uneasy, forces a bit of a reset from the classic fast cars vs spandex wheel-stander bikes dynamic.

ckemere• 2 years ago

Having just moved from Houston to Manhattan , I have been really impressed by the number of bikes I see. One factor, which this article doesn’t seem to discuss, is the e-bike. In Paris, is it mostly classical bikes, or are the electronics becoming widespread there too?

EricAski• 2 years ago

I would say there is a 80/20 ratio between mechanical and e-bikes. The regional council offers ebikes for 40€/month[1] which boosted ebike adoption. The service is very popular with both office workers and food delivery workers.

[1] https://www.iledefrance-mobilites.fr/en/the-network/mobility...

beej71• 2 years ago

On that topic, I ride a regular bicycle but I love that there are so many e-bikes on the roads these days. The city where I live is blessed with pretty good weather for a lot of the year and e-bikes enable people who live out towards the edge of town to get downtown with relative ease.

Even though they lack some of the benefits of a simple bicycle, they drive the same infrastructure development that I need.

plants• 2 years ago

I imagine that’s just about the starkest within-US move you could make with regard to bike friendliness. I once made the mistake of visiting Houston without a rental car, and it was bleak. Welcome to NYC!

wnolens• 2 years ago

I bike in Manhattan and it's a dream. A literal grid of 20-30mph traffic, with a greenway up and down in case you want to avoid traffic entirely.

gniv• 2 years ago

I'm in a Paris suburb. Lots of e-bikes and lots of electric scooters.

himinlomax• 2 years ago

Note that ebikes in the EU are limited to 25 km/h and 250 W. Thus there is little difference in practice with regular bikes ... except when climbing hills.

Ylpertnodi2• 2 years ago

Max 25kmh is stupid. 5km slower than the traffic I'm trying to keep up with, so being constantly close-shaved is an e-bike pain.

kindatrue• 2 years ago

"I really hope US cities head in this direction"

The US is headed on the path of autonomous vehicles as the solution. It's the perfect combination of things our society loves: 1) No new public investment. 2) Continuous, end-to-end air conditioning

twoWhlsGud• 2 years ago

Done properly (I know…) autonomous vehicles could be a godsend for cycling in the US. If vehicles behaved properly you wouldn't theoretically need cycling infrastructure at all – the dream of vehicular cycling would actually start working and you could share the road anywhere.

beppuboy• 2 years ago

+100...I love driving and will miss it with autonomous cars but I like being able to ride my bike without being nearly killed in the city every week. Autonomous cars (assuming they're trained to deal with bikes) would be a massive benefit I'm keeping my fingers crossed for.

trgn2• 2 years ago

the aspirational future of AI-traffic is kei cars and vans puttering around. Hope to see it in my lifetime still.

HEmanZ2• 2 years ago

I suspect the US is going to get a super bifurcated urbanist result across cities in the next 20 years. Places like NYC, Boston, Chicago, Seattle, Portland, and San Francisco (maybe not these exact cities but you get the gist) are going to move strong towards European style urban infrastructure. It seems to be one topic that really does mobilize voters, especially younger educated voters, in these cities. It will in turn attract a lot more of these kinds of people, accelerating the change.

The rest of the US is just going to double down on sprawl.

lotsoweiners2• 2 years ago

Those cities you mentioned already have European style urban infrastructure. In my opinion the big difference is that the drivers in the European cities seemed crazier than their US counterparts.

doctor_phil• 2 years ago

I don't get the American fixation of cars. Isn't public roads a mild form of communism?

carlosjobim2• 2 years ago

Imperialism rather.

NegativeLatency5• 2 years ago

Lots of money has been successfully spent on convincing Americans that car ownership directly makes them more free. Car == freedom

This is sorta true in part (in some places) because other options like walk/bike/bus/train have been so disinvested that in many places you really do need to own a car to get around with any level of dignity.

It does seem to be changing on larger US cities though, so I’m hopeful.

ThunderSizzle5• 2 years ago

Freedom of movement. Cars represent freedom of movement akin to a horse with a trailer, except you have an engine instead of a horse.

I dont think Americans care for the current road monopoly states have, or the monopolistic tolls and enforcement.

The idea of freedom of movement isn't really a European-centric ideal - its more uniquely American and derived from being a nation derived from those escaping injustices of Europe and searching freedom and liberty.

With the history of Europe being based in serfdom - peasants being forced to work their lord's land for protection - the idea of freedom of movement never really seemed to be of importance.

Those who deemed it important probably emigrated from Europe to America.

al_borland4• 2 years ago

Autonomous vehicles will make traffic worse, not better. Now we won’t even need people in cars to create traffic.

NegativeLatency5• 2 years ago

3) A technical solution to a societal problem

rangestransform• 2 years ago

I would definitely prefer end to end AC over cycling in >30c heat

VeejayRampay• 2 years ago

but do note that car owners in Paris (where I live) are reaching never-seen-before levels of whining, complaining about the fact that their little selfish privilege is not as cushy as it used to be and that only 80% of the public road infrastructure is dedicated to their idiotic 2 miles journeys on board of their oversized SUVs now

h1fra• 2 years ago

People not living in Paris can't even grasp how much the city has changed in just 6 years. Starting a bit before 2020 but massively accelerated by the covid situation (and public transport saturation). You could barely cycle safely before and now it's hard to not find a bike lane.

Because of the fast pace, of course not everything is perfect but we have to celebrate this as much as we can.

mattcantstop• 2 years ago

That's a problem I desperately hope the US has to encounter soon. Too much demand and we have to accelerate our plans to satisfy all those people on bikes!

mupuff1234• 2 years ago

US cities should probably first start focusing on pedestrians.

tremon• 2 years ago

Too much demand

That's interesting because the article says the opposite, that supply (mostly) proceeds demand when it comes to mobility infrastructure. The fact that demand is showing so readily indicates there is much unrealized potential there.

jahnu• 2 years ago

I'm hoping Vienna will learn from this and accelerate things here a bit.

littlestymaar• 2 years ago

I concur: I used to ride a bike in Paris during the mid 2010 and I eventually left the city in 2017 in part because I was fed up with the difficulty of the endeavor. And now everytime I travel back there I'm amazed at how far it's gone already, and the number of cyclists keep rising every time!

This year I started seeing a significant amount of cargo bikes, the things that I had only seen in the Nederland before.

I don't know when the growth will stop, but it's already beyond what I could even imagine back then.

richrichie• 2 years ago

The second order effect is that tax rates will increase to cater to increase in social security payment and medical care thanks to increased life expectancy. That might also divert money from other public spending that could mean living longer but with lower quality of life.

ryandrake3• 2 years ago

I don’t get how you can make bicycling your only form of transportation, even if the bike travel infrastructure and parking is adequate. When I bicycle, even for a short amount of time like 15 minutes, I sweat, and end up a stinky wet mess at my destination. Especially in the summer. My shoes and pants get dirty from the road and my hair gets wet and messed up especially if it’s raining. So if I’m going anywhere with even a moderate expectation of personal hygiene, I need to 1. Make sure there is a shower at my destination, 2. Haul a change of clothes with me (necessitating a backpack or bag), 3. Hang on to my dirty sweaty clothes in that bag the whole time. Fine if I’m commuting to work where they have a shower and storage. What about going to a restaurant or business meeting or a museum or an appointment with a professional? I honestly don’t know but there are so many cities where people bike everywhere so there must be a solution.

EDIT: ok, ok, I guess e-bikes it is. Still there are cities like Copenhagen and Amsterdam where everyone bikes everywhere and they don’t all have e-bikes. Do they just bring multiple changes of clothes everywhere?

random_kris• 2 years ago

After biking for some months a 15min ride shouldn't get you too sweaty

Tade03• 2 years ago

Why should that be the case?

The amount of sweat is only correlated to the amount of heat generated.

Only way to counter sweating is to dress appropriately and/or ride slower.

radlad• 2 years ago

Yeah, I disagree. During the pandemic I did a year of heavy cycling, including a 525-mile trip over 7 days. While cycling got a lot easier, I didn't stop sweating.

My family is full of heavy sweaters, and I live in states where it gets into the 80s-90s in the summer. My girlfriend however seems to never sweat, even when pushing herself.

Admittedly, I struggle to maintain a "casual speed."

javiramos• 2 years ago

Could an eBike help?

felixge• 2 years ago

I think e-bikes are a good solution for this problem.

ekiwi• 2 years ago

One solution is e-bikes which are getting better every year and will allow you to go quite far without breaking a sweat.

IllIlIIllI2• 2 years ago

The answer is probably just a lot (most?) people don't sweat as much as you do. It's a solution that works for many but not all. There's also a huge uptake for ebikes, which remove a lot of the exertion component.

As an aside, when I started cycling I sweat a lot more than I do now. It is a mild form of exercise, after all. Once you get used to it, cycling at a leisurely pace takes less energy than walking.

calcifer• 2 years ago

That sounds like a fitness issue. Millions of people cycle everywhere in Netherlands, in regular clothes, without needing showers in between.

extr4• 2 years ago

It's not a fitness issue. The netherlands is fairly flat and has a cooler climate than any major US city. It's just not possible to be pedaling up/down hills in any amount of heat/humidity and not get sweaty.

onlyrealcuzzo• 2 years ago

Okay - but Netherlands is not as sunny, hot, and swampy as Houston and Orlando in the Summer.

I've never biked anywhere that's super hot and humid and sunny like Orlando in the Summer. Theoretically, the wind from biking should help evaporate your sweat before you get "sweaty" - but it's got to be easier to get swamp ass in Houston than Amsterdam.

I think the climate would matter somewhat.

walkerbrown• 2 years ago

I’m in favor of cycling infrastructure in the US, but it’s important to remember that the latitude of the Netherlands (like most of the European cycling cities) is north of the entire continental US.

I’m in decent shape, but will sweat at a resting heart rate in a Southern US summer.

antisthenes• 2 years ago

An e-bike changes this math considerably.

You get:

1. Faster trip, so less time to sweat

2. Faster speed, so more cooling, so less sweating overall.

3. Less exertion, so less generated heat by body.

Although if you live in a hot AND humid climate, I'm afraid there's just not much you can do. There are physical limits after all.

extr4• 2 years ago

E-bikes solve this, they're already basically mandatory for cities with a lot of grade. Personally I run 100% of my errands on a jack rabbit e-bike [0] which isn't even really a bike (no pedals) but a sit down scooter.

[0] https://jackrabbit.bike/

c0nfused• 2 years ago

I think the key here is mostly to go slow. Right now,if I'm bike commuting I need to keep up with cars or risk getting rear ended or tailgated or shouted at. Setting things up so you don't have to worry about cars while on your bike means you can bike at a more reasonable speed instead of 25mph.

Think beach cruiser bikes not guys in spandex on race bikes

wongarsu• 2 years ago

Also infrequent cyclists are often overdressed. You don't need to get out the spandex, but if the weather permits dress so that you are slightly cold while standing still. That gives you the thermal budget to heat up from exercise without instantly sweating.

sod• 2 years ago

Cycling 15 km/h requires just as much power as walking.

handity• 2 years ago

If you ride at a reasonable pace and shift gears frequently to adapt to the terrain, you should never need to exert yourself so much that you'd break out in sweat. A gentle bike ride should feel pretty similar to a walk.

seer2• 2 years ago

Best solution is of course “shower at the office”. I worked for a company about 1h cycling away, and Sofia, Bulgaria is a hilly city, so cycling would involve quite a lot of exertion.

After some experimenting I found that my condition would be acceptable if I just change my t-shirt when I arrive.

My role was just your average dev so grooming requirements are a bit less than customer facing roles.

Also its all about temp management. I’d ware clothes that can be easily removed mid-journey so I can manage my temperature. Airy exercise t-shirts can cool you so well that if you don’t strain yourself too much you can avoid sweating altogether.

triceratops2• 2 years ago

cycling would involve quite a lot of excretion.

I think you meant "exertion". I did giggle like a child though (very sorry).

taminka• 2 years ago

skill issue i’m afraid, when you cycle a lot a 15min bike ride is like a 3min walk, and most of the time if the temp is high you’ll sweat regardless

in that case, get an electric bike :)

teemur2• 2 years ago

Won't help on dirt and rain (and limited help on upwind and uphill) but using a low enough gear you should be able to stroll around with similar strain as walking. And you need to be able to accept a slightly slower speed, which is often challening, at least for me.

TacticalCoder• 2 years ago

What about going to a restaurant or business meeting or a museum or an appointment with a professional?

I also like to find my bicycle where I left it. Which is not an option in many cities.

I honestly don’t know but there are so many cities where people bike everywhere so there must be a solution

People have less and less money to spend on a car and fuel/electricity. Many are using bicycles not by choice but because they're broke. And it shows when you see the kind of bicycle they ride.

My car is an extension of my house and although I'll take public transports once in a while (public transports are free in my country), there's no way I'll bicycle everywhere.

Add to that that I do actually bicycle with a MTB, from point A to point A, with a 5-digit $$$ bicycle and there's no way I could possibly enjoy riding a shittier bike. And due to the insecurity (thieving scums), there's no way I can leave my bicycle anywhere in the city (gone in 60 seconds would be an understatement).

Same for my neighbor: he'll do 50 kilometers+ a day on his bicycle, but from point A to point A, with a roadbike.

Don't get me started as to when I was living in a rural area, with the closest highway being a 45 minutes (car) drive: I'd rant about how practical bicycles are there.

I just don't get it and I don't think I can get along with people who wants to put us all on bicycles and I don't think people who want to get us all on bicycles could get along with me. And I'm fine with that.

diggan• 2 years ago

Many are using bicycles not by choice but because they're broke. And it shows when you see the kind of bicycle they ride.

I'd be careful to assume people's social/financial status based on the bicycle they ride. Where I'm from, you get the cheapest bike possible not because you cannot afford something else, but because eventually it'll get vandalized or stolen, so if you only spent 20 EUR on the bike, it won't hurt as much to replace it with another 20 EUR bike.

NegativeLatency5• 2 years ago

Nobody’s going to make you bike. What people want is the option to choose, which is not possible for safety reasons in many cities.

Personally I’d rather spend my money on more interesting things than car ownership and maintenance.

piva002• 2 years ago

I just don't get it and I don't think I can get along with people who wants to put us all on bicycles and I don't think people who want to get us all on bicycles could get along with me. And I'm fine with that.

You are creating a strawman though, people like me want urbanites/city dwellers to become cyclists because it's better for everyone living in a city.

If you live in a rural area where you need to go 10-20km to find a grocery store, yeah, it's not that practical to only rely on a bike. If you live in a dense-ish city where you can bike some 15 minutes to get to almost all of your daily needs, and with a 30 min ride you can get to 80% of your needs in a year then yeah, I will try to convince you that a bike is more practical for your day-to-day than driving the odd 3-4 km to get somewhere (and paying for parking, fuel, polluting the city, etc.), it's just stupid to drive this short if you don't really need it (e.g.: carrying big/heavy loads, being disabled, etc.).

It's odd to see this kind of overreaction to something that simply is better for your health, for the other residents of the city. It's odd to see how defensive car-centric people get by the suggestion that maybe more people cycling, and governments taking action to create infrastructure for it, will be overall better for a city. Even if you prefer to drive it'll be better for you.

Just don't create a strawman to distill your reactionary take, it always sounds like a whining child feeling their toy will be taken away... That's not the point.

patall5• 2 years ago

I do have a quite nice (and growing) amount of personal assets, yet I bike everywhere on my now 17 year old bike. My grandpa still has his bike of 60 years (and grandmas of 55). Of course will a $10k bike more likely be stolen over a $100 bike. Though proper bike infrastructure also lessens that risk quite a bit. Or where you personally live is an international crime hotspot.

seszett• 2 years ago

Many are using bicycles not by choice but because they're broke. And it shows when you see the kind of bicycle they ride.

Maybe in your place.

In my place (a big city in Belgium) people just use whatever bike they have that works and fix it up from time to time, but as long as it rides few people care how it looks. Especially since less shiny bikes don't attract thieves as much (although this isn't a big problem here).

I use my bike because driving in traffic is longer and the trip to school with the kids and back home would take 20-30 minutes depending on traffic, while it takes almost exactly 15 minutes by bike (with the kids in a trailer).

I use one of two bikes depending on where I parked my car (which I use once or twice a week to go to places with bad public transit. Otherwise it's parked somewhere within a 10 minutes walk radius, wherever I found space) and one of them looks like I fished it out of the river, the paint is gone in many places, but it's lighter. The other looks nice but it's quite old and heavy steel so I tend to use it less.

I also use my bike (the heavy one, I figure if I want to do exercise, the whole point is to do some actual efforts) for 50 to 100 kilometre round-trips, although less so these days, it was nicer when I lived closer to the countryside between France and Belgium.

But the most important thing is I hate the noise of cars in the city. I want to be able to walk with someone and talk in the street without having to shout or stop while a loud vehicle passes. I don't care about cars themselves, after all they're on their streets doing their things, if they take twice as long as I do to get somewhere it's not my problem. I just want their noise to be gone.

posix_monad• 2 years ago

A large part of that is cycling on roads with automobile traffic.

Dodging cars, taking gaps, sprinting at lights, constantly looking around... are all things that make you sweaty. Plus cars kick up a load of road grime and water (when it rains).

Comparing cycling on pleasant infrastructure to cycling on roads is a bit like comparing walking and running. They're similar activities, but the level of exertion is quite different!

In NL, they cycle with umbrellas. In Tokyo, rain ponchos are a common choice.

There's also this mentality in the anglo-sphere of commuting on a racing bike with a backpack. This choice is somewhat driven by the infrastructure, since you need to be fast and agile around traffic. However, in countries with developed cycle infrastructure, people tend to use upright bikes with baskets, racks and fenders. This makes one much less sweaty when riding!

ryandrake3• 2 years ago

For sure. I guess I’ve never bicycled anywhere where I wasn’t in constant fear for my life with cars whizzing past me at 45-55 miles per hour. The anxiety alone makes ya sweat!

lm28469• 2 years ago

I honestly don’t know but there are so many cities where people bike everywhere so there must be a solution.

It depends how tolerant you are, personally I consider a little sweat to be a fairly small thing in regard to the other hardships life will throw at you, and a very small price to pay to save thousands of euros of a lot of stress.

There is no magic bullet but make sure you eat clean and stay hydrated it helps with sweat smell, dress for the ride and not for the destination, a well ventilated outfit does wonder. I personally don't sweat much so it's ok, my gf gets more sweaty and it can definitely be annoying

romafirst3• 2 years ago

So this is a real problem especially in hot climates like the US can be. My advice would be slow down your cycling speed to your appointment. I found myself having to keep reminding myself to slow down because my natural cycling speed generates a sheen of sweat. Of course you can open up on the way home.

This strategy along with suitable clothes will help for moderate climates. If you are heading out into 95 and up weather there will be sweat though.

I’ve also had the benefit of a shower at work which really changed the game, but that is a luxury.

patall5• 2 years ago

1. get fit

2. get an ebike

3. don't live that far away from everything (I do everything by bike, but all daily things are max. 15 min away

4. don't live in Mexico

5. don't race / take your time. Average (non-sporty) cyclist goes 15 kph, i.e your do not get more exhausted as you would be when walking

6. for me: do not wear a backpack (i.e bike bag or basket)

7. have proper equipment (i.e I have a poncho. I get a little wet in the rain though because it does get warm underneath)

FinnKuhn• 2 years ago

For most day-to-day things you don't need to cycle longer than 15 minutes in most bike friendly cities. In addition to recommendation by others I would also add that for journeys significantly longer than 15 Minutes you can take public transport for part of it.

ryandrake3• 2 years ago

Interesting! I picked 15 minutes because that’s the shortest possible distance I could imagine having to go to do anything (yes I’m in the USA). Once in my life, very briefly, I managed to afford to live a 15 minute bike ride from my work, and I did it, but (like I said) with the sweaty consequences. Usually it’s 1-2 hours by car.

NegativeLatency5• 2 years ago

shoes and pants get dirty from the road

Most bikes sold in the US are historically not sold or marketed for transportation, they’re aimed at fitness/sport users. So they don’t come with fenders that would keep your pants clean, and racks you could put your bag on.

To keep from getting sweaty you’ll need to intentionally ride slower, again US bikes are not designed for this. The classic Dutch bike has a much more relaxed and comfortable posture that helps remind you not to work too hard.

piva002• 2 years ago

EDIT: ok, ok, I guess e-bikes it is. Still there are cities like Copenhagen and Amsterdam where everyone bikes everywhere and they don’t all have e-bikes. Do they just bring multiple changes of clothes everywhere?

These cities are almost 100% flat, it doesn't take much effort to bike in a leisure pace anywhere, you won't be sweating if you are riding at 12-15km/h. You don't need changes of clothes to bike as people do there.

I bike in Stockholm, in a longer route these days since I live in a house some 15km away from the city center, it is quite hilly and I ride a fixed gear bike so I do sweat, I do not carry multiple changes of clothes, I have my clothes for riding depending on the season (staples are a wind jacket, wool underlayers due to their good wicking for sweat), carry a small towel with me, clothes I'd like to wear when I arrive at my destination, and wet wipes. If I'm too sweaty I will wait a few minutes until I cool down, use the towel to dry the sweat and the wet wipes in case it's needed.

It takes almost no effort after you are used to the routine, like anything you just adapt to it and becomes the new normal.

The resistance you feel is just the fear of the unknown, it's absolutely doable even in places not as perfect for biking like Denmark, the Netherlands, Berlin, etc., in my case I just love biking and the added routine I might need after biking 15km is totally fine. Others will use an e-bike around here if total practicality is needed.

Tade03• 2 years ago

Do they just bring multiple changes of clothes everywhere?

Worse: from an early age they dress considerably lighter than in other countries.

A friend of mine lived there for the first couple years of her life so she, ahem, adopted the tradition and now carries it over to the next generation with her two sons, who are essentially immune to cold already as by local standards they were always missing a layer or two.

Also 30°C in Amsterdam amounts to a massive heat wave, so there's little opportunity to sweat if you dress light enough.

sloowm2• 2 years ago

I think there are a lot of suggestions already given like lower the pace, ebikes, bring a fresh shirt, there are rain clothes you can put over your clothes.

But it's also about your destination and what is expected. Most of my destinations are people I like to meet or places I like to be at. A fancy restaurant or business meeting doesn't happen that often. Have you seen people at museums ;)

The Netherlands and Denmark are generally not that hot. I also think Dutch working culture has been influenced by people cycling to work. Clothes that fit the weather are more accepted. There might also be some bias to what kind of work you do opposed to what type of work is actually happening. A lot of people do work that will make you sweat more over the day than a short bike ride.

unculture• 2 years ago

It's quite cold a lot of the time in Northern Europe, and people who are cycling to commute there often really aren't going very fast so won't sweat much.

You can also get "moisture wicking" clothes, that might help with a certain amount of sweat.

There is quite a lot of e-bike use in Amsterdam and Copenhagen. Google "bakfiets" - it's a whole "suburban parents with a family size e-bike" cliche (but a good one!).

11235813213455• 2 years ago

sweat is the least of concerns, and by biking regularly you get quickly fit and don't sweat too much

carlosjobim2• 2 years ago

They're living in places where the weather is cool, so they're not getting sweaty on their bikes.

cjf101• 2 years ago

Re: Copenhagen + Amsterdam.

These cities are relatively flat, relatively cool (watch videos of cycling in Copenhagen and you'll see a lot of people in coats and hats), and you don't have to bike very far to get somewhere interesting. There's also the fact that there's a lot of bikes on the paths (which, for me, caused me to slow down considerably from my typical bike pace when I visited). This all combines to mean you aren't putting anymore effort in than a short walk: you just end up going a little farther in the same amount of time.

Re: the rest.

When I was a regular cycle commuter (in a Canadian city) I did pack a change of clothes, spare deodorant and/or wore a removable outer layer that resisted road gunk. Road gunk is _much worse_ on any route you share with cars. Dedicated bike paths tend to be quite clean. Paniers are far better than a backpack, since they sit on the bike frame, you barely notice the weight. But as other commenters noted: a little fitness goes a long way. After a year of commuting, my regular route wouldn't even cause me to break a sweat.

adverbly• 2 years ago

What about going to a restaurant or business meeting or a museum or an appointment with a professional?

Depends on the restaurant obviously. Client meetings and appointments obviously depends on the location. If they're coming to your office then you would probably have already showered if needed. If you have the kind of job where you need to go to other client locations to meet with them then obviously you want a car because you're going to be driving a lot across clients. I imagine such people have cars in Amsterdam as well. For museums, nobody gives a damn. I've never dressed up for a museum in my life.

Symbiote2• 2 years ago

In Copenhagen and Amsterdam, the people meeting clients probably choose their transport based on each day's needs. Several clients in the city centre? Bike, or even on foot. Spread around the suburbs? Car, or maybe bike+train if the offices are near stations. (More likely for office jobs, less likely if your clients are manufacturing/industry.)

It is rare for people visiting us to ask for a parking permit.

(Drinking alcohol with the clients in the evening? Then it can't be car.)

glennpratt• 2 years ago

I pack some backup clothes (undershirt, underwear, socks), they mostly stay in my bike bag because I rarely use them. If I do need them, I just go to the bathroom, then change back into the bike clothes for the ride home. If it's really hot, I might switch it up and put the office clothes in the bag from the start - meaning I know I'll need a change.

Really not that complicated.

lotsoweiners2• 2 years ago

In my experience the Venn diagram of people who bike as their main transportation source and people who care about hygiene and overall appearance doesn’t overlap very much at all.

battery_glasses• 2 years ago

Ebike is a good solution. I ride 20 minutes to work and never show up sweaty. The breeze works better than AC to keep me cool even on 85F+ days.

I invested in a good rain jacked with helmet compatible hood and a pair of rain pants and I am able to ride in all but the heaviest of PNW rains.

I do end up nearly always carrying a pannier with me wherever I bike (usually to hold the extra layers I need while biking) but that has turned out to rarely ever be an issue.

I have been able to replace ~80% of my car trips the bike, it could be 99%+ if I were a little less lazy.

offsign• 2 years ago

Title is misleading... the source Le Monde article states that use of certain bicycle paths has doubled (or tripled) in certain places, as investment has gone into improving these paths.

That's great, but kind of obvious that if you build out dedicated bike lanes, cyclists are more likely to prefer them to alternate routes.

agumonkey• 2 years ago

Based on some videos, some paths usage has way more than doubled. It's getting super messy.. a sad side effect of popularity.

kfarr• 2 years ago

Even though it seems obvious you will find the majority of Americans fighting against bike lanes because they think nobody will use it. Having data to show causation like this is genuinely helpful for other countries and cities to follow their lead.

al_borland4• 2 years ago

I think a lot of the push back in the US against bike lanes comes from bad bike lanes and a lack of a wholistic solution.

In most places I’ve been, the city will paint a line on a road where cars are going 50mph and call it a bike lane. There is no chance that will get me to start riding a bike. All it does it make the road worse for cars, by making it more narrow, or more likely, losing a lane.

One place I lived did get a protected bike lane going right in front of the building. I still didn’t use it, as it wasn’t really connected to anything else. Everywhere along the route I’d go, I’d simply walk. It wasn’t that far. Everything has to start somewhere, and I hope they build more, but so far drivers see problems without any payoff.

The worst of it was during the pandemic. There were construction barrels all over the city. It was hell to get around by car. I figured they were preparing for construction and ripping up the road. I found out a year later that the barrels were meant to create temporary protected bike lanes so people could get out and ride around to places during the pandemic. Cool… if there has been a single sign to tell people that’s what it was. Instead, it just made drivers mad, and the lanes weren’t used, because people didn’t know what they were for. More space taken from cars with no payoff in terms of reducing traffic through increased biking.

I want good bike infrastructure, but the plans and efforts I keep seeing still don’t seem that good. The useful paths are dangerous and the safe paths aren’t that useful.

bsaul3• 2 years ago

not sure about the title, but i guarantee that usage has exploded. It's really obvious (and starts to become a problem in certain areas).

digging3• 2 years ago

kind of obvious that if you build out dedicated bike lanes, cyclists are more likely to prefer them to alternate routes.

That's not obvious at all; it's not even true. It's not uncommon in US cities to install long, wide bike lanes on major roads which see close to 0 daily users. Significant problems include:

- complete lack of physical barriers between cars and bikes

- bike lanes terminating at dangerous roads

- density is still low and there are dangerous parking lots at every destination

- bike lanes are exposed to direct sunlight in 100F+

- a non-trivial number of American drivers need extremely little push to intentionally hurt or kill bibcyclists

ThunderSizzle5• 2 years ago

While those are "dedicated bike lanes", it wasn't infrastructure built for bikes. Typically those are existing road safety shoulders converted to a bike lane.

I dont count that as dedicated bike infrastructure.

krowek• 2 years ago

That's great, but kind of obvious that if you build out dedicated bike lanes, cyclists are more likely to prefer them to alternate routes.

Not really, here in Poland there are new bike lanes, but they go far from the city, so if you need to commute you end up going around the city to finish in a bottleneck when you are approaching the center. So, want it or not, you end up using the alternate routes.

zahma• 2 years ago

The city started during the pandemic and has moved toward making these bike lanes more permanent. There is also a deep dissatisfaction with public transportation here. While comprehensive throughout the entirety of the Paris metropolitan, it is expensive, unreliable (especially the regional RER trains that connect the inner city to suburbs and vital for commuters), often filthy, and at times unsafe (depending on the line). The other issue is the traffic above ground. I've heard reports that there are fewer cars, but it doesn't feel this way. If anything, there are more delivery trucks.

So while infrastructure investment has helped (not to mention some nice tax write-offs and discounts on e-bikes), there are some other issues here. I like bikeable Paris a lot, but the ecological goals of this city's mayor demand much more investment in the city and regional authority's mass transit. It is unreasonable to expect commuters to bike in from many kilometers away. Biking inside Paris upon arrival should be the desired end result. Ultimately to get the cars off the roads, people need to feel good on mass transit so that they want to use it more than a car, and the impression I have right now is that many people are biking because it's better than sweating in filthy, delayed trains.

To that effect, riding a bike is and should be a delight -- not a mere alternative to defunct metro transit, but I know many who are terrorized or disgruntledby biking in Paris. To solve this intractable issue of getting more riders, cars have to be removed from the streets which need to be progressively closed to make room for more bike infrastructure. These kinds of plans well face strident criticism and backlash from the suburbanite commuters. In that vein, I am totally for the Grand Paris Express plan. Make Paris great for Parisians again!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Paris_Express

gregoriol2• 2 years ago

It must also has be taken into account that driving has become annoying to the point that many people from suburbs don't come anymore to Paris for shopping, theatres, exhibitions, ... and many living inside or nearby are really annoyed by the public transports which are dirty, not on time, too crowded, beggars every few minutes, ... so biking is like a forced solution that helps with some things but isn't always a choice of preference. It's easier to see this in the winter, which is not cold/wet enough in Paris to make cycling difficult, but there are clearly much less cyclists then.

sloowm2• 2 years ago

You describe Paris as if it's a shopping/entertainment center for the suburbs. It also looks like you're implying that Paris needs the economic activity generated by the suburbs. For that I would investigate what a suburb is by definition.

gregoriol2• 2 years ago

In the 70s-90s, it was! A lot of shops and movie theatres have closed in some areas like Champs-Elysées, Montparnasse, Saint-Germain, ... where people used to come by car from suburbs on the week-ends because they could, because it was practical, because they could park.

Places for shopping and entertainment have been created in the suburbs since then, which is a win for the suburbs but not for Paris which has become depressing.

trgn2• 2 years ago

it's a win win win!

darkamaul• 2 years ago

As a daily biker in Paris (and for years), I think it is hard to grasp the changes Paris has seen in the last years.

You now even get to see some congestion on bike lanes (Bd Sebastopol for instance), because they are too many cyclist on an older (and thus too narrow) bike lane.

This change, the new subway lanes, and the reduction of car usage in the city make the city much more enjoyable on a day to day basis, especially for pedestrians as cyclists are less annoying than drivers.

bsaul3• 2 years ago

The right bank is going to be really overcrowded this spring, for sure. Left bank have wider roads and less bikes, but right bank is insane.

It's now up to the point that i rather wait for commute hours to be over before i take my bike to that side.

Retric6• 2 years ago

especially for pedestrians as cyclists are less annoying than drivers

As an American pedestrian I find cyclists far worse on average than drivers. They far more often ignore traffic signs and I have seen multiple collisions including one that looked quite serious, though luckily no fatalities.

On a per person basis my personal annoyance scale goes subway riders have least impact, followed by busses, normal pedestrians, cars, joggers, then cyclists at the top. Obviously cars are quite dangerous but they are more predictable. Bikes and joggers seem to spend a lot of time looking at traffic not who they are going to run into.

Edit: To be clear I think this would improve as more average people start cycling.

rrrrrrrrrrrryan• 2 years ago

Way less noise though

EraYaN• 2 years ago

That no fatalities bit is the crucial part. And for quality of life the amount of noise is just much better for bikes, which if you live somewhere with roads and bicycle lanes, you'd love for all the cars to go away and just have bicycles. You just need separates infrastructure, as a pedestrian you should almost never have to share a space with bicycles (or cars for that matter). And if you are on a shared space any sane design will make all cars and bicycles wait and slow down. And at that point they can't be annoying cause you don't have to go out of the way for them ever, they can wait (and seethe I suppose).

CalRobert4• 2 years ago

Cars (drivers, really) are very, very dangerous. They are the leading cause of dead children. They are also one of the reasons kids don't play in the street. I find that far less annoying than cyclists.

lupusreal2• 2 years ago

Seconding this. American cyclists are extremely rude to pedestrians. Whenever somebody brings this up, cyclists dismiss it by pointing out that cars kill more pedestrians than bikes. Well that's certainly true, but I've never had cars yell at me for walking on the sidewalk or over a crosswalk, while cyclists have hurled abuse and (deliberate) near misses at me more times than I can count.

jobs_throwaway2• 2 years ago

Laughable opinion as a fellow American and New Yorker. A bike crash is an unfortunate, and potentially scary event. A car crash is often life threatening or fatal. You're just not weighing the cost of each type of incident properly

cycomanic2• 2 years ago

Your personal observation does not match statistics. Most statistics show that in the majority of bike car crashes the driver has been at fault. The second link which is for Berlin where cyclist have a very bad reputation it's 77% the drivers fault, in contrast for car pedestrian accidents it was 50/50.

I also find these complaints interesting, considering that it's generally considered the norm to drive about 10% above the speed limit, and especially pedestrians are happy to cross traffic lights at red all the time.

https://www.quadlockcase.com.au/blogs/news/8-key-facts-about...

https://www.udv.de/resource/blob/79324/c290c92fc2f0712187c0d... (sorry German)

Ylpertnodi2• 2 years ago

Is Paris still full of dog poop?

chopsuey55402• 2 years ago

I've also been a daily cyclist for over 10 years in Paris and paradoxically, I feel less safe now when I'm riding on shared infrastructure (that is roads without a separated cycling lane). I attribute it to the fact that people driving, and especially people who HAVE to drive (taxis, deliveries, etc...) are facing insane levels of congestion and are lashing out on cyclists because they blame them for being stuck in traffic for hours every day.

Now of course as a cyclist, I applaud all this new infrastructure but I'm wondering if there's a way to appease this growing atmosphere of violence (and I'm not exagerating, I've seen several fights break out between motorists and cyclists). Given the very limited space available in Paris centre, I don't really see an easy way unfortunately...

Curious if that's also something you noticed / experienced ?

noio• 2 years ago

I guess people aren’t always rational, but do those who blame the cyclists not realize how bad things would be if those cyclists were also in cars?

yakireev• 2 years ago

Given the very limited space available in Paris centre, I don't really see an easy way unfortunately...

Bicycles take less space than cars, both on road and when parked, don't they? A four-lane bicycle highway is as wide as one-lane car road. If anything, people switching from cars to bicycles should produce more free space for the city, not less.

Am I missing something?

tetris11• 2 years ago

I had the same reaction when bike lines were rolled out over London.

The influx of slower and less inexperienced riders with the (correct) mentality of "I have the right to cycle as slowly as I feel safe to", vs the previous (incorrect, but accepted) mentality of "keep up with traffic or pull over" amongst riders, made my cycle commute less efficient.

But it's better now. People learn, the city adjusts, attitudes change.

k99x552• 2 years ago

How far outside central Paris does the cycle infra reach? Are the suburbs still very car-centric and/or hostile bicycles?

getwiththeprog3• 2 years ago

Good question, and I do not know. However, I suspect that looking at the OpenStreetMap of cycling, there are trunk cycling lines, which feed to lower car density backstreets - so certainly one can cycle the suburbs, but without the excellent ammenities of cycle-lanes on every street over 30km/h like in Holland or Belgium.

k99x552• 2 years ago

How far outside central Paris does the cycle infra reach? Are the suburbs still very car-centric?

CalRobert4• 2 years ago

We were trying to decide where to live and visiting Paris for Christmas in 2022 was a sheer joy. We ended up in the Netherlands but biking along Rue de Rivoli, the Seine, etc. were a delight for myself and my daughters (we were in a cargo bike) and we hope to return for many visits.

I visited in 2008 and while it was a great city then I definitely wouldn't have been as quick to take kids along for a bike ride.

jcul2• 2 years ago

Were you able to rent a cargo bike in Paris?

Or did you somehow bring one with you?

Fradow• 2 years ago

Same here. I'm pleasantly surprised when I try a new itinerary, and now it's mostly bike lanes. Even 5 years ago, it was 50/50 whether there was a proper separated bike lane you could use.

I also remember 20 years ago, when a car was a normal way to move around in Paris. It hasn't been the case for several years for me now.

Around 2019/2020, something important happened: the critical mass for bicycle infrastructure was crossed, and nearly overnight a lot of people started cycling (no doubt helped by 2019 strikes and 2020 covid lanes). Since then, bicycles are a common sight everywhere.

lucsky• 2 years ago

cyclists are less annoying than drivers

I had to laugh out loud at this, please define "less annoying".

As a daily cyclist in Paris my very own statistics say that about 95% of them (yes, that's NINETY FIVE percent) are either color blind, suicidal or willfully ignore the most basic rule, aka red lights. And yes that include M12 signs which have arrows indicating directions in which running the red light is authorized, that is ignored as well. Breaking these 95% down into categories, the vast majority would be delivery guys - you can easily imagine their "excuse" - and (usually young) idiotic morons on bikeshares (Vélib, Dott, Lime, etc) who therefore do not own the bikes and therefore care even less. I'm especially angry at parents on cargo bikes who run red lights with kids with them, this is not only suicidal, it's borderline criminal. But, you know, they are saving the planet, or something.

So I kinda disagree with the "less annoying", cyclists in Paris are the reason why everybody in Paris hates cyclists.

Affric• 2 years ago

This is not just Paris but drivers are the same on the inside.

The in my experience difference is enforcement. A higher proportion of cyclists believe they will get away with breaking rules and so you see much more of it. Once it’s a norm to sneak around that corner or cross that road then other rule breaking follows.

This can only be fixed with enforcement. It can be ameliorated with infrastructure and more permissive rules where appropriate but the only way to make cyclists less annoying is enforcement.

EDIT: I say this as someone who very rarely drives and even then only outside of the city.

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK• 2 years ago

Isn't it rather thanks to the banning of electric scooters?

tin7in• 2 years ago

Covid really accelerated this. Friends visiting in Paris are also surprised how fast the city changed in just 2-3 years.

frozencell• 2 years ago

That’s written by gpt (bustling, at the heart of, …)

Paris cycling numbers double in one year thanks to investment

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