Never waste a midlife crisis

https://austinkleon.com/2023/07/10/never-waste-a-midlife-crisis/

by herbertl • 3 years ago

445 370 3 years ago

xyzelement7• 3 years ago

I wonder if the mid life crisis is a completely modern and secular malady.

Thinking to my religious friends who have 5+ kids, a rich spiritual life and deep engagement with community, it's very hard to imagine them going through one.

Because they are too busy, but mainly because their life is oriented from the get-go around what is very meaningful to them

majormajor• 3 years ago

Thinking to my religious friends who have 5+ kids, a rich spiritual life and deep engagement with community, it's very hard to imagine them going through one.

I grew up in a church and will tell you right off the bat that neither church nor family prevents one. Googling will give you no shortage of Christian articles and resources around dealing with them. Nobody is immune to that sense of "everything looks peachy on the outside, internally there's a lot of frustration" with the status quo. It does give you a big blast radius so your midlife crisis can wreck a family or two, though, if it leads you towards certain things.

kajecounterhack4• 3 years ago

Also, 5+ kids may seem helpful, but not because you won't face existential crisis with five kids -- you just will have more trouble finding time to process. Kids keep you very busy, until they don't.

As an ex-church person: the "community" is pretty hurtful to a lot of people and isn't immune to high school clique / cult of personality type things, even if you discount other obvious harms (the experience of gay kids in church, women being told they can't teach, way-too-frequent abuses of adolescents by church authorities like youth pastors and priests).

Christian stuff in particular is also heavy on the shame and that is pretty bad for psychological safety & wellness. My mother in law was a divorcee and made to feel real bad about that even to this day. As a boy I remember growing up and self-flagellating for every "impure" thought that crossed my mind. "Rich spiritual life" is a pretty branding phrase for bankrupt ideology.

sky_rw• 3 years ago

Going to church regularly does not mean you have a rich spiritual life.

grassmannian• 3 years ago

Interestingly, it seems like some women's monastic communities (ostensibly the pinnacle of rich spiritual life and engagement with community) are much less likely to experience midlife crises, see https://www.jstor.org/stable/43682330 Figures 1 and 2.

Lamad1233• 3 years ago

Yes, you can almost say that St. Augustine and Luther and others were having some sort of quarter/mid-life crises.

UncleOxidant• 3 years ago

When those 5+ kids move out of the house, that's when those guys tend to have their midlife crisis.

xyzelement7• 3 years ago

I think it's again a modern secular assumption that your kids move out and there's some sort of deep emptiness.

The traditional expectation is that your kids move out to be married and bless you with grandchildren, not to abandon you to rot.

version_five• 3 years ago

I thought the circumstances you describe are what leads to the typical midlife crisis. Not always, but people wake up and realize they're trapped in a life (kids, obligations, job) that sort of crept up on them, and feel like they need to let off some steam.

A lot of (perhaps including the article's authors) modern "mid-life crises" are more what I've heard of as "quarter life crises" - you finish school, get a job, you're in a rut where you don't have an obvious next step and you're starting at possible decades of the same, you get depressed. But now a lot of people are like 35 at that time so it almost overlaps with the 80's version of a midlife crisis. This happened to me, I accomplished roughly what I'd planned professionally at about 30 and then realized it wasn't what I wanted and had no idea what to do next.

PaulHoule4• 3 years ago

There is this book

https://www.amazon.com/Passages-Predictable-Crises-Adult-Lif...

which factually points out that most people go through several crises in their adult life. As a rule of thumb you have one every seven years or so. I had one around 30, another in my early 40s, and another at 49. If you read between the lines in Freud you could also get the picture that a psychoanalysis would be likely to span the duration of such a crisis (say 18 months) and improve the outcome you get.

The author, Gail Sheehy, gave a talk at Ithaca College about a decade ago and actually said that she disowned that book for a few reasons:

(1) Passages is positive for divorce as a way that people who are evolving at different rates and in different directions to realize themselves. She realized later on that divorce is overall highly destructive.

(2) The paths that people take aren't quite so predictable.

(3) Passages was based on a study of graduates of an elite school, one thing that stands out is that none of the case studies consider serious deprivation, in fact you never once hear that somebody wanted to do X or Y but didn't because they couldn't afford it. In the sense that the experience of most people is "dark matter" you might want to read

https://www.amazon.com/Silences-Tillie-Olsen/dp/1558614400

In particular divorce might work out well for somebody like Bill Gates or Elon Musk who can trade in their tired old nag for a hot young thing but for most ordinary people and their families it's profoundly harmful.

Sheehy went on to write numerous more books on the same subject.

hirvi742• 3 years ago

I'd planned professionally at about 30 and then realized it wasn't what I wanted and had no idea what to do next.

Oddly enough, I think this is what keeps me from being ambitious in a professional sense. I just feel like, based on everything I read, hear, and see, that we are all just donkeys chasing the metaphorical carrot tied to a stick. I swear, it's like the hedonistic treadmill is turned up a few notches too high.

There is just so much social pressure to jump into the rat race. I mean, part of me wants to be more ambitious -- to really see how far my abilities and efforts can take me.

However, if I have learned one thing in life it is that everything has a cost. So, what if I do accomplish whatever career goals I set out to achieve? I think a lot of the ambition that comes and goes in my head originates not out of a desire to fulfill my own wants but to kind of self-medicate some deep rooted self-esteem issues/feelings of inadequacy.

What do you all think?

Loocid2• 3 years ago

Isn't the stereotypical midlife crisis the Dad whose kids have all moved out? I don't think that has anything to do with modernity or secularity, it's more to do with a large change that triggers a revaluation of your life. That could happen to anyone.

fullshark• 3 years ago

I view the stereotypical midlife crisis as the dad/husband who decides to buy a sports car and act 25 again possibly cheat on his wife.

xyzelement7• 3 years ago

// the Dad whose kids have all moved out

I think that too is a modern and secular thing. If you got 5 kids there's a good chance the older one has made you a grandfather while the younger ones are still at home. So you sort of transition from meaning to meaning

maximinus_thrax• 3 years ago

Thinking to my religious friends who have 5+ kids, a rich spiritual life and deep engagement with community, it's very hard to imagine them going through one.

As someone who grew up in a religious family/community, this comment made me burst out laughing.

api• 3 years ago

When modern people feel unhappy they often fantasize about an idealized traditional or primitive life imagining that would be better.

People in those lives often do the opposite, imagining being unencumbered or living some kind of cosmopolitan life.

It’s pretty normal to imagine “elsewhere” when you are unhappy. “Elsewhere” is by definition not where you are.

As far as I can tell angst is normal for human beings and everyone in every lifestyle feels it.

Barrin92• 3 years ago

it's very hard to imagine them going through one

because they've outsourced most critical decisions to their faith. As Jung said, people don't have ideas, ideas have people. It's very easy to obtain meaning by getting in a sense hijacked by a very convincing set of beliefs.

theduder99• 3 years ago

sounds like Jung's idea has you.

xyzelement7• 3 years ago

I agree with the "ideas have people" framing.

If you are choosing a set of ideas to "he had by" - ones that let you navigate life (eg bypassing the midlife crisis) sound good.

mistermann• 3 years ago

It's also very easy to fall for the sensation that not being religious grants one omniscient knowledge of those who are. Somewhat ironically, some religions are some of the best ways to learn about this and other important phenomena that seem unknown to secularists (in ways that are important, and doing some reading ain't guaranteed to make the cut).

Everyone is doing their best, but each of us have our own blind spots. Best to work as a team so we can cover each other's shortcomings.

TeMPOraL5• 3 years ago

Having grown up in a highly religious community:

a rich spiritual life and deep engagement with community

I kind of suspect this is one of the ways mid-life crisis manifests. That, and covert alcoholism.

grecy4• 3 years ago

I wonder if the mid life crisis is a completely modern and secular malady

The hint is in the name - crisis.

I genuinely think it's a point people reach where they realize (or finally admit to themselves) that what they've been doing with their lives up until this point is deeply unsatisfying, so they make drastic changes.

Our "modern" western life is not fulfilling, healthy or enjoyable.

VoodooJuJu• 3 years ago

Our "modern" western life is not fulfilling, healthy or enjoyable.

Who is "our"? Western countries, especially Anglo countries, are comprised of a thousand thousand different cultures. Which among those are unfulfilling, unenjoyable, unhealthy? I'm sure some are nice. We're not all the same, not remotely.

verbify• 3 years ago

I grew up as an ultra orthodox Jew - where people have 5+ kids and there is a lot of focus on religious life and community. There are plenty of extremely bitter people who might love their kids but feel trapped by the lifestyle (they don't want to leave their kids, spouse but it gives them no space for anything else). And many of them struggle with meaning in life - the community, religion and kids don't solve that.

lanstin• 3 years ago

Different religion, but my ex-wife's family were all baptists and I've never met women as angry at men as the older women in that family. They had obeyed and submitted and got angrier and angrier as the decades wore on. Didn't help that, despite the strict religion, there was a good bit of alcoholism amongst the men.

They did have very good food at the family reunions, and a big family, but that's about the limit of positive characteristics I can enumerate. (Not that everyone was bad, a few cousins managed to join the modern world of loving-kindness and science).

xyzelement7• 3 years ago

I am somewhat familiar with Orthodox Jews, though probably a different area than what you grew up with.

I think what's been lost in places is that living an outwardly religious life is one thing[0], while being deeply religious inwardly is the next level. The second thing is harder to teach or even talk about so it gets ignored, vs ritual etc.

It's maybe the same as the difference between "dragging yourself to the gym"[0] and "loving fitness."

//And many of them struggle with meaning in life - the community, religion and kids don't solve that.

This seems like the crux of the difference between deep and superficial engagement with religion. In my experience, a deeply religious person (of any religion) sees a profound amount of connectivity and meaning in everything in the universe, and sees their family and community life in the context of contributing to that meaning. The statement you made is analogous to me to "working out doesn't make you fitter" - it puts a big question mark around the exercise you're doing.

[0] While obviously connecting deeply is the goal, there's a lot of benefit to even the less deep engagement. Your friends whom you describe as bitter - you can imagine that the secular society is full of bitterness too, plus no community or kids. Likewise, even if you "drag yourself to the gym" you're way ahead of those who don't, even though you may hate it.

ryandrake• 3 years ago

Nearing-50, non-religious person checking in here: I don't think it has much to do with religion or non-religion. I must be really lucky or really privileged because I haven't had even a hint of "crisis" that I can remember. Knock on wood that I don't catch it somewhere.

Isn't the common denominator of a midlife crisis a yearning for the past? Overwhelming nostalgia? Dad buying a sports car so he can pretend to be 20 and virile again? Mom downing the mimosas at 10AM wishing she didn't make so many mistakes in the past? Uncle Joe can't stop talking about how he was High School senior football captain and had the time of his life in the '70s and that everything sucks now?

Me, on the other hand? I'd never want to go back to my 30s or 20s and especially my teenage years. High School was literally the worst part of my life, I'm talking rock bottom, and my 20s were not much better. But every year thereafter has been better than the previous one. I'm totally optimistic about the future! And while I might not be making more money year after year, I always feel like I have a purpose to achieve, and as my kid grows up, there always seems like there are future moments to look forward to. None of this requires religion.

anthonygd2• 3 years ago

Isn't the common denominator of a midlife crisis a yearning for the past? Overwhelming nostalgia?

I don't think so. I'd describe a midlife crisis as more of a fear you don't have enough time to do what's next. I've always wanted a Ferrari; if I don't get it now, when will I? I discovered bouldering in my 40's and hate the fact that I can never be competitive; if only I had started 20 years earlier... at this point, every year limits how much time I have left for those new adventures I haven't discovered yet.

I think Uncle Joe just complains because he's crabby.

compiler-guy• 3 years ago

Dads often buy sportscars around fifty or so not to pretend they are twenty and hot again, but because they are finally in a position to do so. Finances mostly in order, kids are leaving the nest and seem to be doing OK.

So you see that car you have always wanted but never bought because it's impractical and expensive and say to yourself, "I don't need four seats any more, and I do have the money if I'm careful. Why not? I've always wanted it."

Of course some folks do this irresponsibly, but it doesn't have to be a fantasy about pretending to be something you used to be. Just now you can, when before you couldn't.

sanderjd7• 3 years ago

For what it's worth, I don't think this is right. The "well, how did I get here?" problem can happen to anybody. Maybe it's not happening to your friends, but certainly there are many people like them who wake up some days wondering why they are struggling to find enough purpose and meaning in all those beautiful things they've built their lives around, and battling to envision their path back to contentment.

boringg3• 3 years ago

The U Curve probably correlates with midlife crises being that being at the low of the U curve with some other push triggers a crises. But yeah religiosity does correlate positively with happiness (no surprise there - you offload existential worries for religious dogma)

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2022.8376...

Lamad1233• 3 years ago

It's not!! We were told as kids that prophets in general became prophets at that age around 40!! It's the case for Mohammed at least and if your read up on his life around that age, you can easily imagine he was going through a mid-life crisis!!

za3faran5• 3 years ago

One can imagine anything, including unrealistic and baseless things. Reality, however, is different. This is evident by the many people who carefully studied his biography and ended up embracing Islam (some of them being heavily anti-Islam themselves before that).

j0hnyl2• 3 years ago

Secular people seem way more emotionally stable to me than those I would call religious.

dang• 3 years ago

No doubt it takes different forms now than in the 14th century, but Dante began his Inferno with a mid-life crisis:

  Midway upon the journey of our life
  I found myself within a dark forest
  For the straightforward path had been lost.

ddq2• 3 years ago

Hell, the book of Ecclesiastes could be read as a midlife crisis. “Vanity of vanity, all is vanity.”

pbourke• 3 years ago

  A man wakes up in a strange room
  He doesn't recognize the woman next to him
  He gets out of bed, there's a wallet on the dresser
  He opens it up, looks inside at the driver's license in there with his face on it
  And someone else's name

za3faran5• 3 years ago

Yes I wouldn't be surprised at all. It's easy to see how much lower suicide rates are for example in so called "third world" countries that have been war torn, due to no small part by Western colonialism, compared to "advanced first world" countries, which are generally highly secular and have higher standards of living. Believing in God plays a major role in maintaining mental sanity, particularly in the faces of challenges.

Personally speaking, Islam has helped me and many others I have either personally observed or heard about navigate far from ideal circumstances. I've known people who have lost spouses, children, or even entire close families, yet they remain steadfast and strong.

ihateolives• 3 years ago

It's easy to see how much lower suicide rates are for example in so called "third world" countries

How good/trustworthy is the data on suicides in those countries? Highly religious countries are not keen on showing and sharing unfavourable data.

kortilla3• 3 years ago

Lol no, I saw religious cousins’ families go through major shakeups during midlife crises. One ended with divorce after a nice string of affairs and a departure from the church. Another was quitting a stable white collar job, buying a motorcycle, and spending nearly every night at a bar.

A community does not prevent them. A spiritual life definitely doesn’t prevent them (disillusionment is frequently a cause). Kids don’t help, but they certainly put immense pressure on you to not upend everything so it gives the appearance that it might not be happening to outsiders.

nickd20015• 3 years ago

100% . People who prioritise helping others, as long as they don't overdo it and burn out, are far less prone to depression. Having a bad day? Feeling depressed, frustrated with your life? Go do something to put a smile on someone else's face. That can really snap you out of it. Of course, we (and I'd have to include myself) all forget to do this as often as we should. I agree that its a secular malady. Its almost as though Jesus was exactly right and knew what was good for us ( * caveat - this is based on an assumption that Jesus actually existed / what he said was correctly reported ;). )

lm284693• 3 years ago

We gave up religion(s) and tradition(s) for consumerism, turns out buying shit is not the optimal long term fulfilment panacea. Add absolute lack of body and mind hygiene and you get to feel like a complete waste of life by the time you hit your 40s. By then you realise discipline/work could have put you in a really nice place, socially, physically, professionally, but now it's too late, the damage is done, you can only pick up the crumbs and have to work twice as hard to get anywhere close to what it could have been => mid life crisis.

Buying a porsche gt3 and a nice house with a swimming pool won't make up for wasting 20+ yours of your life behind a desk

multiplegeorges• 3 years ago

religious friends ... it's very hard to imagine them going through one

So much great literature and philosophy was written specifically because religious people went through crises of faith where they re-interpreted their entire social/religious world. Kierkegaard being one most people know.

Same thing, different name.

rcme4• 3 years ago

I hope I don’t have a midlife crisis. I would view that as somewhat of a failure. I had like 40+ years to figure out what I wanted my life to be like. Feeling the need to change course after so much time would be a little lame.

beachy• 3 years ago

You could be on the right course but still unsatisfied with your achievements. This is probably pretty common.

jebarker3• 3 years ago

But you've figured out what 20 year old and 30 year old you wanted, not necessarily what 40 year old you wants.

I was shocked by the cookie cutter midlife crisis I had upon hitting 40 despite thinking I was doing all the right things before that.

rcme4• 3 years ago

My decision making has largely been driven by looking at those older than me and asking myself if that’s the type of life I want to live. If the answer is yes, then I use those people as role models. So I think my optimization strategy has been on a longer time horizon than just what I want in my 20s or 30s.

lr4444lr• 3 years ago

It's not just about missing out on what you want: it's also achieving it and wondering, "is that all there is?"

lz400• 3 years ago

I think that's the kind of attitude that sometimes leads to the worst midlife crisis. Because you're holding yourself to an extremely high standard: for your life to be perfect in all aspects (by your own judgement) by ~40. Personally I learned to battle mid life crisis with a dose of humility (I haven't figured it all out, and that's exciting) and humor.

rcme4• 3 years ago

I'm not expecting perfection. But I am treating my life a lot like navigating in a sailboat. You have to have your eye on the horizon and use the stars the guide you. You can't always reach your destination in a straight line, but you also shouldn't be way off course.

quickthrower22• 3 years ago

The assumption here is changing course is a bad thing? And what defines changing course?

Also how do you know what your 40 or 60 year old brain will think when you are 20?

If our brains thought the same things and had the same world view this would be evolutionarily a disadvantage. Just brain chemistry changes alone could account for a lot of decisions. At a crude level it makes more sense to be sex and love obsessed in 20s when the chance of having a good sperm, eggs and pregnancy is much higher.

Elder members of the group help genetic survival by providing wisdom, knowledge of a different kind than younger people (I don't believe "older people know better") but the blends of knowledge are great for survival.

The assumption that we are purely rational agents making informed choices is clearly false in general, and I think the opposite is true, in general.

And this doesn't even tough on the extra information you would have processed over 20 years or even the freakingly high speed of change of the world around us. Would you choose to learn about Machine Learning / Neural Nets in 2000? Or coding in 1980? Well you could if it is a passion, but it didn't look as promising as now right? So data changes.

cesarvarela• 3 years ago

There are too many unknowns and uncertainties to consider anyone's life choices a failure. Don't fall victim to the illusion of control.

another_story• 3 years ago

I'm in my 40s and haven't had one, but I've also never really figured out what I want my life to be like. In truth the question was always more what do I want to do right now? What you want life to be like will continually change, and to me, it seems like those who don't accept that end up disappointed.

I'm currently in a transition period, seeing if changing course from my present occupation is possible. I did the same in my 20s and 30s without difficulty, though it gets harder as you age. If I can good, but if I can't, then it's still ok. Make the best of what's available and enjoy what you have.

Life is a long series of decisions and then you're dead. What you do doesn't really matter, even if the pressing weight of it right now says otherwise. Make life choices that won't pigeonhole you and be open to opportunities you may not expect.

dotnet003• 3 years ago

I think you're also falling a bit for one of the common fallacies people who have midlife crises have, the idea that there's something wrong with changing the direction of your life at 40, that it somehow means you've failed.

Having helped a couple of people going through that sort of phase, a pretty useful tool I found was to have them think about how much the world has changed in even just 20 years. So, given that, it isn't really that big of a deal that at 40 you might want to do something completely different from when you were 20, simply because your current life is almost entirely different to what it was 20 years ago.

We're long past the times when several generations of people would live and die doing the same thing without seeing any meaningful change in lifestyle and so it isn't that big of a deal if that also reflects in our own life choices.

surfsvammel• 3 years ago

I read the book Midlife: A Philosophical Guide by Kieran Setiya. I found it interesting and helpful.

https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691173931/mi...

quickthrower22• 3 years ago

Midlife crisis needs to be split into the "responsible for kids" and "not" categories. The "not" people can do wilder/riskier things, although I suspect on average they don't since fear of things massively outweighs "can you actually do it" factors. Probably the paper boxes we build are smaller than the metal ones outside of them.

turnsout• 3 years ago

I struggle with this—if you have kids, sometimes staying the course feels like the "responsible" thing to do. But plenty of people get laid off out of the blue, and plenty of people pursue their dream and have a thriving second career.

There is probably no right answer, but I guess the question is: "what decision can you live with?"

sircastor2• 3 years ago

That’s tricky though, because the decision you can live with becomes the decision your partner and children also have to live with - and they get much less choice in the matter.

codq• 3 years ago

Thank you. I turned 40 this weekend, and have spent the last few months if not years wondering who the hell I am, and thinking about all the cool projects, startups, languages and learnings I'd love to explore.

However, I also have a 3-year old I'm taking care of who drains me of all my excess time and energy. I can't do any of this stuff. I'm exhausted at the end of the day, and with my 1-2 hours at the end of night after my kid goes to bed, I'm certainly not writing the Great American Novel.

Maybe when he's older I'll have time for a midlife crisis.

rootusrootus2• 3 years ago

Maybe when he's older I'll have time for a midlife crisis.

If you're like me, yes. When I was 40, my daughter was 3, and I didn't have much time for worrying. Now both my kids are tweens and my direct day-to-day responsibilities as a parent have declined so much that I have plenty of time for a proper midlife crisis. It sucks more than I ever imagined, though I'm working through it and feeling a little better about the future.

tharkun__• 3 years ago

"mid-life" is such a varied but also changing term.

Many many moons ago said mid life crisis was when the kids were starting to get older, 16-ish or older even. Mid life crisis meant you suddenly had more time on your hands than you remembered what to do with.

Now mid life crisis is a couple of years into having kids more often than not it seems. That seems like a way different situation. On the one side you have kids that want to do their thing anyway and on the other you have a totally dependent on you and the family toddler.

pmarreck• 3 years ago

51 with a 2 year old son (my one and only kid, who was technically impossible, hence why he is "late", but then here we are...). He's awesome, but I'm in the same place (2nd paragraph). And, even worse since I'm 51. I have to practically physically claw back any time I need for myself. It's exhausting. I'm hoping to make enough money again by next year where my partner can quit her job and my son can enter a special program (that unfortunately has 51 weekdays off, which was too many for 2 full-time parents), and the division of labor will be different.

sidlls• 3 years ago

That's how I was around 40 (though my children were 6 and 3 at the time). I'm definitely going through a midlife crisis. One thing I've learned about myself in this period (it started last year) is that there is nothing worth losing your own mental health over. If you aren't mentally healthy and stable, those you care about the most are going to suffer all the more for it. Sometimes you have to pick the least of multiple bad options, and often "powering through" is not that.

magicink813• 3 years ago

Yes, you will have more time later. Now is the time to invest as much attention as you can into your child. It is the investment you can make now that will pay off massively later on.

Recommended reading: Hold On to Your Kids: Why Parents Need to Matter More Than Peers by Gordon Neufeld and Gabor Mate https://www.amazon.com/Hold-Your-Kids-Parents-Matter/dp/0375...

mock-possum• 3 years ago

You’ll get your time back as he gets older, for sure.

sdwr2• 3 years ago

Nice metaphor. I like the paper = financial, social constraint and metal as "down to the metal" physical limitations. Kinda clunky though, needs a few rounds of workshopping!

melenaboija• 3 years ago

Midlife crisis needs to be split into “the ones that need to keep working until 70 probably doing the same crap to keep feeling alive” and “not”.

And sometimes the ones from “not” get there without ever knowing what _needing to work_ means.

scarface_744• 3 years ago

My wife and I at (46 and 48) went all out 2 years after our younger son graduated and two years after Covid.

TLDR; we downsized from an our house in the burbs and our cars bought a vacation home/investment property in a resort in Florida where we live half the year and we nomad the other half flying across the US.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36306966

p1esk3• 3 years ago

Do you still need to work?

detestablelife2• 3 years ago

Exactly - those with kids and/or those who are poor can’t afford a midlife crisis

sanderjd7• 3 years ago

It reminds me of the kids/no-kids bi-modality of the covid "lock-downs". All the stuff in the news was like "everyone's learning to bake!", while the reality for most people I knew was "everyone is running an office and a daycare simultaneously from their home!".

nraford• 3 years ago

Normalize transition in your kids lives'. It will serve them so much better in the long run.

I had my own dramatic "mid-life crisis" a few years ago in my early 40's and have two teenage kids (pre-teen at the time).

We didn't hide anything from them, including the overall shape of the career issues, relationship issues, hopes and dreams, how we were handling regrets and commitments, and so on.

Of course we didn't involve them in all the nitty gritty (and what we shared, we do so with respect to their relative ages and levels of experience), but the idea that hiding what it means to be a complete, imperfect and yet aspirationally evolving human being from your kids is a major opportunity lost.

Now my kids know that just being successful doesn't mean you're happy, that everyone goes through changes of heart, that our goals and dreams evolve, and that this is a natural part of life.

I'm a huge fan of parental role modelling through action and reflective practice. Showing them how you go through your own life transitions helps them tremendously in theirs.

sanderjd7• 3 years ago

I don't think that's what they were talking about. I think they were talking about "if you have kids, you still have to support them financially, and that massively limits your options for experimentation".

yieldcrv• 3 years ago

Agreed because its not a “midlife crisis” when you’re single, in a trendy area and financially stable, doing something cool.

2-718-281-8284• 3 years ago

The "not" people can do wilder/riskier things

not going to help anyway. midlife crisis and other related mental problems can never be resolved by outward solutions. you can distract yourself for a while with exciting new hobbies (like getting a motorbike) but it will come back and even harder at that because then you will feel like it's even more hopeless as even this exciting change didn't really solve the underlying issue. but some people also just get used to being unhappy and that's about it for them.

JumpinJack_Cash• 3 years ago

The midlife crisis is a need for novelty, specifically the brain is not stupid, it sees that everything around is either collapsing or freezing in place and it wants to fight that, reverting to the days of college when everything was about building up and dynamism.

If and only if you get back to the same levels of building up and dynamism of the college days , and you are still sad/depressed, you could claim that the thing is not outward related.

cranium• 3 years ago

I don't think people with kids should weaken their midlife crisis. Kids adapt and maybe they'd prefer a more lively parent to a resigned one?

And compared to divorce, a midlife crisis has a lot more upsides.

sanderjd7• 3 years ago

Yes but the options are far more limited. Your midlife crisis can't be "I only do solitary mountain trekking now because that's what makes me happiest" when you have children who need you.

yizhang7210• 3 years ago

Yep I've just started my mid life crisis at 31...

carlossouza• 3 years ago

Wait until 40. It hits harder.

sph12• 3 years ago

Good advice, from a 36 year old middle aged man 3 years into a midlife crisis after a massive work-related burnout event.

A couple more pieces of advice from me:

* A midlife crisis has its own glacial pace. Be prepared to be upside down for a long time.

* Be prepared not to be the same person you were before. Be prepared to learn there is no turning back.

* If you're in a midlife crisis, your previous life was simply not good enough and reality has caught up to you. Go through the process, and you'll become a better person.

* Outsource your mental health during this phase to professionals. Not even your spouse might be able to accept what comes out of this reconfiguration of yours. You will probably need the help of someone that is not invested in your previous existence to hold you in this trying time.

3 years in, it's getting better, I miss part of my previous life, but I know who I am now, how I operate, and I won't compromise to fit someone else's mould anymore. In your childhood you had no say in how you were grown and pieced together. You had to carry whatever they had built for you until you broke down. Now is your chance to start over and do a better job at it.

Good luck!

neilv• 3 years ago

How close to Breaking Bad has it gotten?

TimesOldRoman2• 3 years ago

On a scale from Walter White to Willy Wonka, how WW are you?

sph12• 3 years ago

Less like Breaking Bad and more that like meme of Pablo Escobar waiting in a melancholic mood.

https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/pablo-escobar-waiting

postsantum• 3 years ago

Pryce and his new yellow Hummer

rootusrootus2• 3 years ago

36 year old middle aged man

You're not quite middle aged yet :). And 33 is way too early for a midlife crisis, surely? Maybe it's just garden variety burnout and/or depression?

sph12• 3 years ago

It was being a little cheeky. And if a massive burnout whose first month was having daily panic attacks and 3 years to recover is garden variety, I am afraid to know what a serious one entails ;)

Depression was part of the baggage I was carrying around all my life. It's hard to say, given the state of things, but perhaps depression is one thing I was lucky to shed during this phase.

sharkweek• 3 years ago

I’d say in my social circle most people hit a crisis of self around 30 years old, and most were out of the funk 2-3 years following.

Most are doing well now as we hit 40, curios if is struck sooner for our generation.

atmavatar• 3 years ago

If he lives in the US, it's pretty close. The life expectancy of a male in the US is 73.5 years.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/life-expectancy.htm

SamPatt• 3 years ago

I'm not the person you're responding to, but both my parents passed away in their mid-50s, and after my startup failed at 35 I hit something like a midlife crisis.

If you believe mid 30s is middle-aged, then it becomes middle-aged - and unfortunately, for some that might be true.

Fortunately for me, this crisis led to a serious investment in my health and fitness, and though I obviously cannot predict my future, I'm far healthier now than anytime in my adult life. I fully agree with the sentiment to not waste a midlife crisis.

solumunus2• 3 years ago

The term is not used so literally.

mcv• 3 years ago

Yeah, I'm 49 and wondering if I shouldn't have a midlife crisis or something. Although reading the article, is it possible I had mine 12 years ago when I quit employment and became a freelancer? I've been a lot happier since, but it's really still the same career.

I've always wanted to create games, though. Whether computer, board or RPG. Should I quit my current freelancing and start doing that then?

DropInIn2• 3 years ago

Someone has no idea about the actual average lifespan of men....

kleene_op• 3 years ago

33 is way too early for a midlife crisis, surely?

I don't think he knows about second midlife crisis, Pippin.

nextlevelwizard2• 3 years ago

I guess it depends on how people see their mortality. I know people who thought they'd die for sure before they hit 30.

For myself 30s was only when the life started to happen.

dougmwne• 3 years ago

No age is too early for a crisis. One model I have heard is that we need to reinvent ourselves every 7 to 10 years. I had one crisis of reinvention at 30. Now at 38 I am in another one.

2-718-281-8284• 3 years ago

isn't a midlife crisis is just a label for burnout / depression at the end of the day? everybody who is depressed feels like life is stuck and going nowhere.

dainiusse• 3 years ago

Yep. Sounds like this was just a burnout :) The real midlife crisis will happen later :)

OO000oo2• 3 years ago

38 yo male now starting to think I don’t know what a midlife crisis is.

andsoitis• 3 years ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midlife_crisis

sph12• 3 years ago

A midlife crisis is quitting your desk job to sell ice creams on the beach in the Caribbean. Getting to the point of doing it, not just thinking about it.

BaseballPhysics• 3 years ago

IMO the term is so diluted as to be meaningless.

Burnout isn't a mid-life crisis.

Changing your career doesn't necessarily mean you're having a mid-life crisis.

Changing your personal circumstances doesn't necessarily imply a midlife crisis.

Every definition I know of includes a sense of existential angst, a feeling of regret, of lost potential, of questioning identity, of a fear of mortality.

But simply realizing you're unhappy in your life or circumstances and want to change them isn't itself indicative of a mid-life crisis by any meaningful definition I'm aware of.

Clubber3• 3 years ago

It means you'll never be 18 or 23 or 30 or 35 again. The youth that you took for granted is gone forever and time will march with you until your death. Death may be maybe be 2 years from now or 40 years from now, fully knowing that you body will start failing. Even if you have 40 years, not all of them will be good years, especially the last ones. Once you are gone, that's it, all the time you spent improving yourself and building wealth will be for naught, at least for you.

lm284693• 3 years ago

It's what people say they suffer when they made bad decisions for decades and figured out they missed the good part(s), happens a lot to people who sacrifice everything to climb the corporate ladder or focus too much on work or other artificial goals. Not everyone goes through it

layman513• 3 years ago

May I ask for further advice on your fourth bullet point about “outsourcing your mental health”? I understand you might need to shop around like you maybe go to a cognitive-behavioral therapist, or psychoanalyst, or buy a Transcendental Meditation (TM) course.

operatingthetan2• 3 years ago

or buy a Transcendental Meditation (TM) course.

That's a cult, so maybe some other kind.

sph12• 3 years ago

Talk therapy with a psychotherapist. The ones that listen and don't do much talking, not the ones that prescribe (which are called psychiatrists).

If all else fails, M-x doctor. It's a thing.

roeles• 3 years ago

Thank you so much for sharing. This makes a lot of sense right now.

Vayl• 3 years ago

Literally as if I'm reading about my own life. Being the same age doesn't help :) Well put.

boesboes• 3 years ago

Wow, 3 years, that's a long way. Congratz on making it this far and good luck on the road still ahead.

39yo here, just stopped shy of a full burn-out & after a month with a lot of confusion, crying and panic decided to hand in my notice. That helped a lot, but I'm not really well yet ~3 months in. Mainly sleep is an issue. My body seems to enjoy triggering tiny panic attacks when I'm falling asleep, which makes falling a sleep complicated >_<

I've been struggeling with sleep and anger issues for many years now, but it had come to a point where I did not want to accept being angry anymore. Anger turned into crying and despair, but that is frankly progress. I got some help, it was not great, but it helped me understand a lot about myself. In the end, this gave me the courage to quit and think about life in a different way.

Now I just have to figure out where to go from here. Stick with what I know and do it better or do something different entirely. Not a clue how to figure that one out yet.

Anyway, thank you for sharing. It's good hearing from other people that went through similar things.

naveens• 3 years ago

I'm 41 and in the same place. It's been 2 months since I quit and frankly the decision was a bit of relief. Thanks for sharing and hang in there.

codazoda• 3 years ago

I’m 47 and I’m not sure if I’ve had a midlife crisis, which probably means I have not. My adult kids, however, joke that I’ve had one a year for as long as they’ve been alive. I’m what the late Barbara Sher called a Scanner. I keep a Scanners Daybook and lots of other notebooks and I’m always working on a new project or hobby. When someone asks about my hobbies I often say that I’m a serial hobbyist.

berdon• 3 years ago

My response is “my hobby is collecting hobbies”. I think it’s more I’m just interested in learning anything and everything.

I’ve never heard of a scanner or a daybook. Coincidentally, I’ve been deeply invested in finding the best way to keep notes… But a non-digital format loses a lot of utility without searching, etc… Maybe I should try it anyway.

johndhi• 3 years ago

This unfortunately falls into the same category in my mind as most advice: "you should ... X."

My mind is sick of hearing the things I should do. I know I should be better and fitter and less wasteful but... I'm tired.

weard_beard• 3 years ago

Same. My midlife crisis is hiding from the eyes in the dark outside the campfire instead of shouting at them like a maniac as I did in my 20s/30s. I bought a shitty boat and a steamdeck. Its nice.

sph12• 3 years ago

Don't. People and peers on the internet are selling the bullshit idea that they're doing a lot and you're just lazying around. It's fake news. They're selling you a mirage, not by malice, but because everyone else is doing it. You keep hearing of the Ken Thompsons and Oppenheimers and you barely have the mental fortitude to plumb 2 JS libraries in a work day.

Stop pursuing the things you should do. Do less. Slave away on someone else's dream the last amount of hours possible to maintain a decent lifestyle. Until you reach a point where you find your innate creativity you thought you had lost in your teenage years shining in, driving you. That might require a massive lifestyle change.

But for the love of God stop listening and comparing to anyone. Working on your dream 1 hour a month is more than the vast majority of people do, and at the end of the day, you'll turn to dust like Albert Einstein did, whether you accomplished something or just played videogames all day.

Marrand• 3 years ago

Amen

badpun2• 3 years ago

Until you reach a point where you find your innate creativity you thought you had lost in your teenage years shining in, driving you. That might require a massive lifestyle change.

I'm 42, don't have to work any more really and haven't been for some time now, and the innate creativity is not calling me at all. Perhaps I was always a bit dull, lol.

Anyway, people should be seriously prepared for the possibility that their dreams of pursuing projects "once have the time" were just an escape fantasy to help cope with suckiness of work. Lots of people who retire early return back to their previous line of work, because they can't really find meaning in anything, and structured and organized work within some company at least gives a little bit of it. The lesson from that is - don't burn your bridges.

chinchilla20202• 3 years ago

The reality of the sickness is our lifestyle. Humans are not wired to sit in a fluorescent office for 8 hours a day staying at a screen. Humans are designed to build physical tools and persistence hunt wild beasts on the plains of Africa and the Eurasian steppe.

Decades of sitting down and staring at a screen in that office is bound to start to deep into someone's mental health at some point.

No amount of therapy, vanity spending, grindset mentality, family support, or PTO can fully fix the mental wound that a deeply unnatural lifestyle inflicts on a person. Those are all bandaids on a gaping bullet wound that is most likely permanent.

Tired of hearing these hackernews biohackers and their silly blog-inspired solutions to life satisfaction. It's time to wake up and realize that there is no way to achieve the type of satisfaction they are claiming they can achieve in the modern world.

bmitc4• 3 years ago

Here's my ultimate advice that I myself am not following as I should: get off the Internet and social media. Our brains are tribal, and we're not meant to be constantly inundated with news from the other tribes. It seems obvious in retrospect, but I have realized that a lot of my unhealthy fears, wants, desires, etc. are triggered by things like Hacker News, Reddit, Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn. LinkedIn may be the most unhealthily triggering these days.

Any benefit, like hearing about something I hadn't before, is overwhelmed by the negatives. If I instead spent all this time reading my unread books, I'd have a lot more discovery anyway, without any of the social media shame, pity, and jealousy.

bsimpson• 3 years ago

This mentality is why I'm nomadding despite the constant threats of Return to Office. (I'm at Google.)

I spent a dozen years in San Francisco. I know what serves me there and what doesn't. I know that I find day-to-day life there low-key depressing. I know my friends there have largely moved away and/or moved on to the next chapters of their lives. I know it's way too hard to find a suitable romantic partner there.

Kowtowing to the RTO whims would be relegating myself to another year that's probably a lot like the other ones, with the hard parts getting harder with every year lost.

I don't know where my forever home is, but I owe it to myself to figure it out.

pfannkuchen• 3 years ago

Where have you tried so far?

layman513• 3 years ago

What would you say makes San Francisco particularly difficult to find a suitable romantic partner for you if you don’t mind answering? I am curious to hear what you think because I have also heard the same thing about SF and even about Austin, TX.

ip26• 3 years ago

There are 12% more men than women there. This might not sound bad, but remember 37% of people in CA are already married…

fnord77• 3 years ago

well now I hear this :(

danielvaughn• 3 years ago

I turn 39 in a week, and I might be hitting something like a mid-life crisis. Though I'm successful by many metrics, there's so much I wanted to do by this point in my life that I've been feeling like a failure. For instance, there's been this side project that I first got the idea for in 2014 and have been actively working on since 2017, and I still haven't released it yet because I keep going back to the drawing board and overthinking everything. I'm terrified that my body is slowing down and I won't have the energy to see it through.

camillomiller3• 3 years ago

Welcome to the club! A lot of all this comes from the highly unrealistic expectations that we set for ourselves that make us incapable of appreciating how much we actually achieved and how much we already got. Now, knowing that’s the source of the discomfort is great. Actually being able to live with it and let it go it’s totally a different story.

taneq3• 3 years ago

A lot of us at this age were brought up to believe we could be anything, do anything, achieve anything. The subtext of “pick one or two things and you may achieve modest success” was perhaps not sufficiently emphasised.

Add to this that the definition of “do well” has morphed from “be one of the better accomplished kids in your school” to be more like “be in the top 1% nationally” (or even globally) and there’s a serious impedance mismatch there.

camillomiller3• 3 years ago

> Higgs was saying that the artists he admires are people like David Lynch. People who you wouldn’t think there’s an obvious place for them in the world, but they just do their stuff regardless, and a place sort of builds around them.”

As someone who’s definitely nearing or within a MLC, I’m so fed up with this narrative. It’s pure and simple survival bias. Most of the people doing exactly this end up frustrated, poor, forgotten, incapable of recognizing their own narcissistic personality, and surrounded by scattered/broken/dysfunctional relationship. A very tiny minority, despite all that, gets successful, and yet we build entire narrative universes around these few outliers and their survival bias.

axiom92• 3 years ago

The options seemed to be: If I went for it, I’d be penniless, and if I didn’t go for it, I’d be bitter. I’d be bitter going forward. Penniless certainly beats bitter. So I made the decision.

Kind of like industry -> PhD decision.

moron4hire• 3 years ago

This is hustle porn. All of Kleon's books are hustle porn. A lot of, "you just gotta, like, do, man." Not a lot of whatever the hell that means for the millions of folks who exist in the long tail of every creative market, struggling day in and day out to try to escape the doldrums of their day jobs, but never making it. Year after year. YouTube video after YouTube video. New social media site after new social media site. Kleon's (and others like him, one of which I would consider Paul Graham) success is in no small part due to selling you a story that success is attainable.

But it's probably not. Hustle porn makes its bank on you thinking you're going to be the one to beat the odds. You're probably not. You buy the books and t-shirts and the prints and the seminars and you fill the coffers of someone else's success.

You probably don't even really want success. If you play the "and then what?" game on "what would you do if you had what you want?", you'll eventually realize all you want is happiness. Success isn't happiness. There are lots of successful, deeply unhappy people.

Focus on the happiness. You can make a thing. And you can absolutely not sell it. You can make a thing and not even tell anyone about it. If making a thing makes you happy, focus on that. The rest is a distraction, someone else telling you that making the thing isn't enough, that it has to be "successful" before it's "real".

Yes, happiness is easier when you're financially stable. That's not the same thing as the "success" that hustle porn tries to sell. Hustle porn needs you to remain dissatisfied so you keep buying the hustle porn. Do what it takes to be financially stable. It's good if you can make that be your source of happiness, too, but get ready to accept that you probably can't.

Just choose to be happy. How? You just do. You just decide, "I'm going to be happy." And then it happens. It's really fuggin' weird, but it works.

camillomiller3• 3 years ago

Thanks for saying this out loud.

sedatk• 3 years ago

On a similar note, I find the "don't waste it on a car, use your imagination" dichotomy quite shallow. Do whatever that makes you happy. You can buy that car if you want, and do great things at the same time too if that's your thing. Or, maybe you're happy with your car, and your work too. You don't owe anyone to be that designated person. You may need to own that car in order to truly process whether you need it in your life or not, or to feel having control over one part of your life, and transfer that perspective to the other parts. Human psychology is quite complicated, and usually you're the most informed person about yourself.

throw9away65• 3 years ago

If you buy the right car on the depreciation curve you won’t lose that much a lot of these crisis choices can be quite cheap if you don’t do them impulsively.

randito• 3 years ago

Austin Kleon's books are not hustle porn to me. In fact, it comes across as the opposite. It feels like tips for being creative. Some of the advice is for unplugging, pursuing side projects, practicing procrastination -- things that do not sound like your typical "top 100 tips to succeed" tripe. The third book -- Show Your Work -- could be taken as hustle porn. But if you read it in context with the others, it doesn't seem that way. Just a way to get your work out there without being spammy. If it seems hustle porn, you might be missing the point.

bigpeopleareold• 3 years ago

I don't know anything about this author until now, but by reading the one article and thinking a little critically and reading here, what he said was deceptive. A lot of advice is actually just toxic, because in it's generality, people always give assurances behind it. It might be fine for trivial things, but for shaping major themes in one's life, one really can't have a feeling of FOMO because they don't act on this generic advice.

I say this because I have spending years shaking this off. This is my mid-life crisis (that I decided had to start when I turned 40 :P ) What you say about success and happiness is relevant - even if "success" is an implicit measurement in places where hustle is a religion, it's best to ignore that stuff and do your thing ... or not. :)

sircastor2• 3 years ago

I recall my parents both independently confiding to me that the other was going through a midlife crisis and I think what they were actually doing was just trying to define the others behavior as the cause for their own unhappiness. And specifically push me into believing one or the other was the one behaving oddly.

If you’re experiencing a midlife crisis, please be honest and straightforward with your partner, and the other people in your life. You’re feeling the loss of opportunity and possibility, but that doesn’t mean everything about your life is wrong. Your partner may be able to help.

more_corn• 3 years ago

I’ve always thought midlife crisis was a weird thing. Nobody knows when they’ll die. Maybe you die in an avalanche at 24. At which point you probably should have reassessed your life and assumptions at 12. Or maybe you die in a car accident at 18. Or a house fire at 32. Maybe you’re gunned down by the husband of the lady you’re sleeping with at 74.

If there’s any benefit from a midlife crisis you should probably get on it today. Nobody knows the hour and manner of his end. You might have missed your midlife already!

hirvi742• 3 years ago

In this context, midlife describes a time period in human development not the actual midpoint of one's life.

If there’s any benefit from a midlife crisis you should probably get on it today. Nobody knows the hour and manner of his end.

I completely agree.

ThrowAway1922A2• 3 years ago

This isn't reassuring, it's depressing. God we truly are cursed aren't we? Being born into this meat grinder is not worth it and we are unlucky to be here.

aftoprokrustes2• 3 years ago

The awareness of the innevitability of death can actually be freeing and help give more depth to life. For instance Maranasati practices in most branches of Buddhism or the "Memento Mori" of the romans and middle age christians. I am actually even convinced that death, even with all the pain and despair it brings, is necessary for beauty and mystery. And I say this as someone who had several close relatives dying recently and went through grief and accompanying the grief of others.

Midlife crisis might actually be an example of that: "why am I waste my time? It is limited, I need to make something meaningful" would likely not be a common thought if we were immortal. You cannot waste what is in infinite supply.

(Note that this is a theme one finds in Buddhist cosmology: birth in the human realm is seen as better than birth in the heavenly realms, where life is so long it is essentially infinite, because it is human mortality that helps getting the drive to study the Buddhas teachings to end the cycle of rebirth. Very refreshing idea if compared to classical conceptions of the Christian paradise)

JackFr• 3 years ago

Terrible advice. Survivor bias.

totetsu• 3 years ago

Does anyone have any suggestions for good workbooks for planning ones way towards big long term things like the life change goals that come out of a midlife crisis?

heyoni5• 3 years ago

Emacs, definitely. Org roam.

Someone else in this thread mentioned a Scanner day book?

nytesky• 3 years ago

Midlife crisis is about recognizing your mortality and limited time left, and looking at what you have done and finding it comes up short to what you hoped for your life.

The reality of how little time you have left is a key component, that death is stalking every decision and will likely curtail some plans.

shannifin4• 3 years ago

This is true, but I find it's also difficult to really judge the worth of what I've done in life. My mind's default for judging is: "Was my work popular? Did it make good money?" And all my endeavors have certainly failed in those regards. But of course there are many things we do in daily life that can hardly be judged that way, and whose effects we cannot see.

BOOSTERHIDROGEN• 3 years ago

The Qur’an uses the term al-dunya for life on this earth. The word dunya means “nearer” or “something less important or ordinary.” In multiple places, the Qur’an comments on the real nature of life on earth and warns us about its true disposition. It has been described as something of a transient nature, a place of transit, test and trials, and actions. It is also a place for learning, spiritual development and growth. What one achieves here is manifested during the next phase of existence which is a constant, higher and more permanent phase of existence:

And what is the life of this world other than play and amusement? (Qur’an, Surah al-Anʿam, 6:32)

And I created not the jinn and mankind except that they should worship Me (Qur'an, Surah al-Dhariyat - Verses 56)

age of forty has special significance in Islam. Regarding aging, Allah says in the Qur’an, “… until, when he reaches maturity and reaches forty years, he says, ’My Lord, enable me to be grateful for Your favor which You have bestowed upon me and upon my parents, and to work righteousness of which You will approve, and make righteous for me my offspring. Indeed, I have repented to You, and indeed, I am of the Muslims’” (Qur’an, 46:15).

mattgreenrocks4• 3 years ago

That’s the cultural default. It is designed to make you the perfect economic actor: always grasping at something unattainable. The resulting void is conveniently matched with a dazzling array of products to use your hard earned money on.

You’re being played.

akomtu• 3 years ago

One curious explanation of midlife crisis I've seen was that at the age of 33 the "spark of spirit" completes its connection with its earthly vessel, looks down and expresses its major disappointment with how little has been done. The more advanced, who haven't wasted time, this connection feels like sudden rush of wisdom and intuition.

bdbaoanai• 3 years ago

Honest question. Is midlife crisis and/or burn out a problem that you face only when you can afford it?

I am a frist generation immigrant in the US. I do ok for myself and am at a vantage point of seeing my peers etc have these issues but I also can't forget that my parents worked much harder for much less, with similar, if not lot more stresses, and I don't think it was even an option for my mom/dad to have the luxury of burnout or on a midlife crisis, even therapy would have been an expense to think twice about. They worked Saturdays as well, had much worse commutes, longer hours and they barely even took vacations etc. as much as me and my peers now. They seem to have done ok for themselves and are reasonably happy, and fine in their older age now.

Are these just problems that one faces only after they have certain comforts in life and can afford to have such problems?

shannifin4• 3 years ago

Short answer: it may certainly be the case that growing up in first-world countries more easily primes people for later midlife crises with their greater societal focus on wealth, status, fame, materialism, etc.

Longer answer: I don't think it's a matter of "affording" or "not affording" per se, but likely depends on your younger-self's expectations and life goals, which are completely free and up to you, you can desire and daydream about whatever you want (though environment and nature of upbringing will certainly have an influence); the "crises" comes from realizing that your expectations and hopes may very well never come to fruition, and whether or not you can deal with that. Maybe they were unrealistic or selfish expectations to begin with and you should let them go, maybe you actually made some serious life mistakes with big costs and have to accept that. Maybe you're still caught up in bad habits and have to reassess your values. Whether or not you can "afford" any of that is also up to you. So it likely depends on what exactly your earlier expectations and life goals were, and how important they were/are to your self-perception.

Gareth3212• 3 years ago

Is midlife crisis and/or burn out a problem that you face only when you can afford it?

Yes. See Maslow’s Hierarchy.

derbOac• 3 years ago

I think it depends on what you mean by "you can afford it".

At some level that's the nature of midlife crisis, identifying what it is you have and what you want, and what you can have.

If you are happy with what you have despite all its costs, it's not really a crisis because you've identified that as such. Even if you're not entirely happy with it but you recognize that it is a net good for you and your family, there's no crisis either. If some things you identified as benefits before are now seen as serious costs — to family, children, morality, or integrity, among other things — but there's an easy and painless way to rectify things, there's also no crisis.

The problem — the crisis — is in recognizing or believing that what you once saw as good things are actually costly, but rectifying it is also fraught with large and probably unknown costs. Maybe you've realized the vocation you're in is actually rife with immorality and corruption, or maybe you've realized that your career has completely cost your children precious, limited time with a good family, or whatever, but you've gotten so far along that the costs and likelihood of changing careers are also great. That's the nature of the crisis.

At some level I think you could say it's a crisis of privilege but I don't think so. I think it comes anytime a set of life choices, over a long time and with many costs, leads one to a position of deep dissatisfaction and realization that there's limited time to right things. My sense is that doesn't really depend on socioeconomic status necessarily.

The other side of it is there are apparently studies showing similar mood changes over the course of life happen in completely other species, so there's an argument that it really has nothing to do with existential or sociological issues at all and is very biological. Based on my own experiences that seems hard to believe though; my guess is midlife crises can happen for many different reasons, and aren't limited to midlife.

lm284693• 3 years ago

Daily Seneca quote: "What man can you show me who places any value on his time, who reckons the worth of each day, who understands that he is dying daily? For we are mistaken when we look forward to death; the major portion of death has already passed. Whatever years lie behind us are in death's hands."

formvoltron• 3 years ago

The only way 40 is midlife is if you spent your life so far behind a desk.

ehnto2• 3 years ago

That's going to be quite a lot of people. It is also pretty spot on if thinking in life expectancy terms.

IAmGraydon• 3 years ago

I think a more reduced and perhaps more broadly applicable version is to never waste pain. It can propel you just like the promise of reward can. They’re opposite sides of the same coin.

shannifin4• 3 years ago

I'm not sure I understand what exactly the advice is. Is it just "don't be afraid to do something risky, as you might regret not going for it"? That doesn't seem helpful to me, I can easily regret doing something I really wanted to do before.

"I can be penniless or I can be bitter." Why not both? If I try something risky and fail and end up penniless, I'll be penniless and bitter.

snek_case2• 3 years ago

That's true. I agree that taking big financial risks, especially later in life, is not necessarily the best advice. Risk is relative though. Plenty of people in this thread talking about programming projects they've been working on for years and have rewritten multiple times, never releasing anything. What would have been the risk in releasing something earlier?

I have a friend who is a musician. He obsessed over individual songs that he produces for months, and doesn't release very much. I think he has this idea that he's going to be hugely successful someday, but I keep telling him, I think you would build more of a following if you released more of your work. The worst that could happen is that people don't like it that much, but there's something about getting used to putting yourself out.

There are also people who dream of a better work environment and never apply for other jobs. It can be risky to just quit your job when you have a family to care for, but it's often possible to interview in other places without leaving your current job.

shannifin4• 3 years ago

Creative endeavors can be especially difficult because it can mean lots of work with very little chance of financial success. You really have to enjoy the process itself (or at least find a healthy balance between the creation and business sides of it). If you do, there's not much risk, you'll get enjoyment out of it at least. But you really have to be honest with yourself about your expectations. (That is, even if you tell yourself you're doing it for fun, but you're secretly still planning to "make it big", you're probably setting yourself up for disappointment.)

jodacola3• 3 years ago

I turned 40 last year, shortly after “making it” to my career goal: CTO of a hyper-growth start-up.

Shortly after my birthday, my daughter, who had just started middle school, was hospitalized because she was suicidal.

What I believe has been a midlife crisis exploded with such tremendous force, I thought I was losing my mind. Thank goodness for good therapy, which I immediately sought.

This is the most profound reconfiguration I’ve ever experienced.

I’m excited for the person I’ll be at the other end of this, and how my life will feel, but I’ve learned there is no planning for any of this. There is no white-knuckling any of this.

I’m relearning how to connect to myself and how to shape a life around that connection.

It’s not easy. It’s not close to done. It’s exciting. Terrifying.

To the author’s point: I’m not wasting this opportunity. That doesn’t mean I’m writing books or or doing things to keep busy. For me, wasting this opportunity would be ignoring the incredible self-reflection, forgoing the reconnection with self, and powering through the burnout and discomfort to keep on with plans I laid for reasons I’m not sure I fully understand anymore.

There is a peace I’m sensing, and I can’t wait until I’m fully aligned with it.

For those of you experiencing similar, I wish you the best. I think our best years are ahead of us.

austinl• 3 years ago

If you don't mind sharing, where did you find a therapist, and what is their background? It seems like there is such a wide range of options, and I'm a bit hesitant about the online platforms.

lentil_soup• 3 years ago

Not OP but I had the same problem as you, too many options. My advice is to just pick one and try it, you'll have a much better understanding of what you need/want after you've talked to one. If they don't give you a good feeling, you pick another one

rednalexa• 3 years ago

Also not OP, but if you open up with any mental health positive people in your life, that's a great place to start. They may even have a recommendation which will really ease a lot of your worries going in as it largely is a personality based thing in my experience.

Also - give a call to some therapists. You can choose some arbitrary screening criteria that make you comfortable - like if you only want to talk to men because you're a man and worry about that, or if you want to find an lgbtq-oriented therapist, those types of things can be filtered. There are even faith-adjacent therapists - but I personally would be uncomfortable with that - but they exist!

Once you have a list after filtering down of 3-5 therapists, call each for a consult. During the consult, if you don't like the therapist, cross them out. After calling 3-5 you can choose the one that your gut tells you. If you can't commit even then, then flip a coin on them to be honest. If your gut tells you to go with two different ones, choose one at random and try it out.

Finally one other thing that I found surprising was even if someone marks cognitive behavioral therapy on their listing (A lot of them do!) - they may not use it in a 'tool-based' fashion. Meaning, you won't get a lot of homework.

If you are someone who needs take home work to be able to function, this could be a question you ask during your calls.

Here is an example of how it could go:

You have the criteria: 1. Must be LGBTQ positive 2. Must accept my insurance 3. Must be skills-based oriented around processing emotions

With these three, if I cannot find the information on their page, I can ask them during the consultation call something like:

1. If you don't accept insurance, can you do a super-bill so I can file a claim with my insurance? 2. Do you do skills-based learning as part of your practice They may say "no, but I do X, Y, Z" in response

Anyway, I'm not editing this down but hopefully that helps a little.

jodacola3• 3 years ago

I did what rednalexa suggested: asked for help and recommendations from folks in my life who have used mental health professionals and swear by them.

When I met professionals for an initial consultation, I paid close attention to my comfort with each and how I felt about sharing the deepest details of what has been one of the hardest periods of my life.

Through those recommendations, I found someone with whom I felt comfortable and chose to move forward.

Like many things in life, I recommend just taking a first step; in this case, an initial consultation. Follow your gut, if you can. Don't feel good about it? Don't move forward.

nivaldoh• 3 years ago

I struggled to find a good therapist and had sort of given up for a while, but years later I was able to find a really good one (which happened to be a neuropsychologist) through a referral from my psychiatrist. You might have some luck attempting something similar if you can.

feedyourhead• 3 years ago

That's very inspiring. I admire your clarity and determination. I wish you all the best on your journey!

za3faran5• 3 years ago

Sorry to hear about you and your daughter, and I hope you're both doing better. Was she a heavy social media/cell phone user? It's been shown to cause mental issues in teens, especially girls.

selestify2• 3 years ago

That sounds incredible, thanks for sharing! Do you have any advice on connecting to yourself and living that connection?

jodacola3• 3 years ago

I believe it differs dramatically for each person. What works for me may not work for anyone else. Here's what is working well for me:

* Taking long walks on trails, without my phone or podcasts.

* Tending my little garden.

* Meditating. Not some prescribed formula, but something I sort of "fell into." However, some common meditative tools have proved very useful: body scans and breath work.

* Being deeply curious about myself. Why did/do I want X? Do the reasons feel right? Why did Y make me angry/sad/happy?

* Practicing acceptance and letting go of things that don't serve me.

The tricky part is that I don't believe any of this would work for someone else if they just tried to go through the motions of it.

I do believe, though, that being deeply curious about yourself is the way to start in figuring out what you need to connect.

Question your motives. Question your emotional responses. Dig until you understand. Dig harder when half your brain is screaming at you in pain to _stop_ digging.

wintermutestwin• 3 years ago

I think our best years are ahead of us.

With your newfound awareness, they almost certainly are.

Signed as one who is about 15 years down the path you have realized...

moneywoes• 3 years ago

I'm glad to hear you that you're amidst that process

As someone looking to replicate your success, I'd love to know some of your learnings

ThrowAway1922A2• 3 years ago

I am not quite old enough for a midlife crisis, but suffered a period of extreme burn out which was followed by some kind of crisis/breakdown and I am actively in the process of destroying my life and everything good I worked for.

I at this point both hope that I'm still here to experience a "midlife" crisis and that it isn't even half as bad as this has been.

detestablelife2• 3 years ago

Throw away ID,

as a a peasant who has grown from being very poor in a third world country and currently living in a first world country with acceptable lifestyle, this is poor idea to myself because mid life crisis is only for people who are rich, the poor are too busy trying to live rather than changing it.

uwagar• 3 years ago

what is waste?

mikhailfranco• 3 years ago

Podcast discussion of this topic from Freakonomics:

Are You Having a Midlife Crisis?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQzxEC-qbU4

sharas-• 3 years ago

"Life really does begin at forty. Up until then, you are just doing research."

- Carl Jung

WTF are you talking about? "crisis", it's such western cliche. You actually start living after 40.

dmje5• 3 years ago

My midlife crisis at 40 was more like a midlife epiphany. We moved from a perfectly good and totally beautiful city (Bath, UK) into the arse end of nowhere in Devon to live in a shack in the woods with no running water and to be near the sea.

We went with two small (8 and 5) kids (responding to those here saying it's not possible - it is!) and downsized from a busy city life to a quiet rural one.

Our intention was to stay a year. After two years we mentioned going back to the kids and they put their feet down - the most relaxed kids in the world decided they knew what was good for them: splashing about in rivers with sticks, fires on the beach, mud, a tiny school, more present parents, late nights lying on a hill looking at the stars. So we listened to them and stayed.

We're still in the country, by the sea, and our kids are now nearly grown up. We're having a blast. We're here for them. They're here for us. We'll never be rich but we're a great family unit.

If we hadn't had the guts to do a crazy thing (I give all credit to my wife for having the idea!) and decide pretty much off the cuff to follow our "crisis", we'd never have discovered our new life.

We've been very fortunate with our circumstances and I never forget that - but fundamental to all of this has been making the leap. Fear of the unknown can be countered by just doing it, knowing that crazy looking decisions can create amazing futures. Doing things is often better than curling up in fear and not doing them.

Right. I'm off for a surf :-)

htamas• 3 years ago

Can I ask what are you and your wife working with now?

dmje5• 3 years ago

Yeh, we run a small web consultancy. I also have another business which is a little more platform-y / SaaSy. Wife has also learned how to be a florist so is building that up too. All fun stuff :-)

ant6n• 3 years ago

I mean good for you. Both my boys (2 and 4) are social butterflies, if they had only each other they’d probably go crazy.

Joeri• 3 years ago

We just did the lightweight version of that, moved from a major city to the beach, but still in a beach town. It came about due to my wife’s midlife crisis induced by major (now solved) health problems. We’ve lived at the beach for three weeks and already it feels like our best decision in many years.

(We kept our old jobs and are working mostly remotely. The commute is two hours each direction by train, but doing that once a week is fine by me.)

darkclouds• 3 years ago

Right. I'm off for a surf :-)

What beach, you must be on a foamie considering todays conditions?

dmje5• 3 years ago

Yeh, it's awful, I ended up just having a little dip instead :-)

sanderjd7• 3 years ago

A couple questions if you're willing to indulge:

- What about friends and family? Are you further from or closer to family? Did you have friends nearby? Did your kids? What is your familial and social circle now, compared with then? - What about school?

dmje5• 3 years ago

Sure - well, my wife is from the North East so her parents are problematic from a travel point of view, and definitely worse now given that we don't have easy access to trains / airports now. We've mitigated this by having them come to stay for longer periods of time so it's good that I get on with them :-)

We didn't have any friends at all down here when we first moved. The village was extremely welcoming, and in large part (as ever) the kids going to (a small and friendly) school massively helped to build some initial connections, many of which continue to this day.

We now have a really nice circle - people round these parts are very much not obsessed with work in the way we've found with other places we've lived, which is a bonus for us. Lots of variety in what people do with their leisure time, lots of home workers, and in general people seem more relaxed.

Massive downside about our particular part of the world is the terrible lack of diversity. We also miss bits of city culture and have to travel now to go get our culture / food / music - but we find we can sort of "top up" on a monthly basis and then run back to the sea feeling refreshed :-)

samstave• 3 years ago

If you need another 'kid' (48m) in mid-life-burnout-crisis to join you - I'm your guy!

I have been going through MLC since the beginning of pandemic - and I am trying to figure out what to do as I dont ever want to go back to the type of tech work I was doing (SF currently has the largest commercial real estate vacancy in the country, and I dont see that getting better - and for a decade I built out the tech in many of the large office spaces in SF and for many hospitals...

I cant go back to that.

I want to do something analog/creative and non-tech related.

I grew up in the scenario you describe with your kid - growing up as a latch-key-kid in Lake Tahoe in the 80s was AMAZING - just leaving the front door and walking off into the wilderness and stomping through streams, building tee-pees out of shaking aspens that we would chop down. Build booby traps (terribly)...

Kids need to grow up in the woods - not in the cities.

pas• 3 years ago

Bath might be beautiful, but it's definitely not perfectly good!

It's at the same time too small to be interesting (you need to drive an hour to get to Bristol), but too big for having those advantages you mention for Nothing-by-the-Sea.

4ndrewl• 3 years ago

Never waste the chance to comment "but survivorship bias"

aftoprokrustes2• 3 years ago

Totally agree. When he started saying "just write books and readers will come" I had to think about https://xkcd.com/1827/

Not to say that all he says is rubbish. "Pennyless beats bitter" is a good heuristic and shows that he does not claim that it could not have gone south.

nextlevelwizard2• 3 years ago

As a risk averse person when I read this: "Penniless certainly beats bitter" all I can think of is; ending up penniless just makes you penniless AND bitter

manmal2• 3 years ago

The stereotypical concept of the big singular midlife crisis has been debunked. Crises occur in every age span, and they are highly individual. I agree though that a crisis should never be wasted.

kekebo• 3 years ago

Can you recommend a source re:debunking?

manmal2• 3 years ago

My wife is a psychologist (MSc @ university) and psychotherapist (system and family therapy, which is a modern & rather evidence based variant), and we've talked about this recently. According to their training, the stereotypical midlife crisis is a plot device for stories and not rooted in actual observation.

ulizzle• 3 years ago

"If you just waste it on like a car, it’s just a lack of imagination. Mine was the decision to write books and attempt to make a living there."

Becoming a novelist is as cliche as trading in your car and wife for newer models. But as someone whose been dead-broke before, I'd pick bitter any say.

indigoabstract2• 3 years ago

Penniless certainly beats bitter.

That sounds like a good mantra to motivate oneself.

chasd003• 3 years ago

Unless you’ve ever been truly penniless. Being bitter beats the true terror of forcing your family to live in a shelter.

indigoabstract2• 3 years ago

That can certainly happen and it is truly scary, not arguing about that.

I think what most people here on HN mean by 'penniless' is living with their parents and having no disposable income, or some other stressful arrangement. Something that their (perhaps former) friends and acquaintances would consider an embarrassing failure.

pdiddy3g• 3 years ago

When I was 38, I took upon a challenge to start my 40s on a high. The challenge was simple. I would run 40 half marathons before turning 40.

Before this, I was running occasionally.

For about 18 months, I ran 2-3 half marathons every month and completed my challenge. By the time I reached 40, I was in the best shape of my life. Also, I figured out that my mind and body can now take any challenge and complete it.

I turned 41 in June and already ran more than 70 half marathons and one full marathon (Copenhagen full marathon).

jack_riminton• 3 years ago

This stinks a bit of survivors bias, for every successful person who tried "built it and they will come" there are 1000 people who failed and had to go back to whatever they came from

pantulis• 3 years ago

To take into cosideration: midlife crisis sometimes happens at 40, mine happened at 50. Don't ever think you are going to get away. The realization that there are more years behind your back than in front of you is huge and it will come.

bloqs• 3 years ago

Midlife crisis is simply myth. It is a description of the long awaited convergence of money and youthful desires.

Additionally, middle age starting is not robustly defined by your 30s. It varies across cultures. In the UK, having kids much later and having adolescence dragged out due to education and lower wage years is very normal. This is also due in part to life expectancy shifts, and the period of middle age for boomers extending far longer than many realised.

bmitc4• 3 years ago

Midlife crisis is simply myth. It is a description of the long awaited convergence of money and youthful desires.

You say it's a myth but then just aptly described it in a way that makes it seem inevitable.

2-718-281-8284• 3 years ago

boy is this text shallow and lazy ... no way this is accurately priced at floor(pi*100) points. also the guy is falling for survivor ship bias. very shallow.

having said that. midlife crisis is at the end of the day about facing mortality. so that's what you need to do. face it. realize you are going to die. you don't know when and there is nothing you can do about it except for living now.

ainiriand• 3 years ago

Been there! Big depression at 40, now fully focused on video game dev and that really saved me.

ogou• 3 years ago

Not every midlife assessment leads to a crisis.

MailleQuiMaille• 3 years ago

How can I prepare for this ? A lot of the comments mention work, which I’ve already chosen to give less importance in my life, money, which I make enough of for now, family, which I don’t have for now but in progress and overall « meaning of life », which I’m I no investigating almost daily.

I’ve accepted humans are not meant to know what’s up, otherwise we’d know by now. It’s all about the journey one could say. So yeah.

Any other tips ?

socksy• 3 years ago

The options seemed to be: If I went for it, I’d be penniless, and if I didn’t go for it, I’d be bitter. I’d be bitter going forward. Penniless certainly beats bitter. So I made the decision. And that was ten years ago! And I’m still going.

Funny how people never seem to ask the folks who turned out penniless whether it was a good strategy

ChildOfChaos• 3 years ago

This is an interesting read, because I turned 40 this year and I have been struggling, I didn't expect to feel this way, but I also never really understand or registered the magnitude of turning 40 was, I never really processed that I had somehow grown old and I was still just drifting through life, living like I was 20.

What is the process for not wasting such Crisis though? I feel part of the reason why I am in this position in the first place, is I never am able to make sense of any of such times, I just struggle through it and eventually it goes away a little bit. Every time I try to figure anything out, I get stuck in overthinking and I don't really know what options are available to me anyway.

jfil• 3 years ago

Perhaps the best way to navigate such a time of uncertainty is to recognize that you're not even aware of the spectrum of options, and to be open-minded/observing what kind of options are possible. This looks like saying "yes" to an unusual invitation, reading a book in a new genre, doing something mildly out of character - to see what kind of new thing might happen as a consequence. And it doesn't have to be serious, it's "just for research" ;-)

fxbe12• 3 years ago

This is inspiring!

I am 37(male) going though one and its certainly has its up and downs. Maybe a few here can let me know what field I should break into.

I am Sr developer in the industry for a decade. Regular dev shop and manage 3-4 direct reports and play the senior tech role for a couple of projects at any given time. I enjoy working with code but much less so then years ago.

I have a LOT of personality (meeting new people, selling myself, etc.) that I sadly don't get to us at all in my current position. I went to a work conference in DC back in February and talked to strangers non-stop for three days. I loved every minute of it. I am getting bored being at a desk all day and would rather use my personality in my work. I have my past in the technical and want to use my personality to make money now. I know there has to be a place where that's an advantageous combo. I am not afraid to take a pay-cut in transition. My company will hopefully be acquired soon so I should be able to do some hunting.

Any advice on what I should pursue? Welcome to suggestions and any private message etc with suggestions. Thanks!

Never waste a midlife crisis

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