US bars friends over Twitter joke

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4095372/Twitter-news-US-bars-friends-over-Twitter-joke.html

by ColinWright • 14 years ago

368 213 14 years ago

thesun.co.uk

pistoriusp• 14 years ago

I'm wondering how they matched up his Twitter account to his real identity?

muyuu• 14 years ago

Full name right there and date of flight.

corin_4• 14 years ago

Have no more fear, your country is safe from all terrorists who tweet about their plans.

Truthfully, I wouldn't have expected this from America, they're the kind of jokes I could imagine myself making on Twitter, but will be careful not to before future trips there..

This is pretty much what I think of when going to China, and what makes me specially careful not to say anything the Chinese could take as a threat. Heh, last time I went we were doing some IPTV streaming from an event, and where given a list of words which, if anyone said on air, would have us all deported within hours.

edit: To people complaining about The Sun - yes, it's a crappy rag, but this is basically a story that no news outlet would hear of unless the people involved sold/gave their story, and there's no reason they wouldn't go to The Sun, where they could reasonably expect to get a little more $$$ than if they went to the BBC.

tonyedgecombe• 14 years ago

These stories we keep seeing do the US no good at all. From the outside the you look don't look very attractive to visit or do business with.

vnchr• 14 years ago

Thank you for your honesty. As an American, this issue deeply concerns me.

slavak2• 14 years ago

I know that for me everything I'm hearing has dropped the US quite a bit on my "places to visit" list.

To be fair, I realize my impression is probably slanted because of the origin and type of foreign news I'm exposed to.

Vivtek5• 14 years ago

I have to say that from the inside, we don't look all that attractive any more, either. Do us a favor and boycott us loudly - money's the only thing our government actually understands.

nextparadigms• 14 years ago

US is done as the "land of the free". It's still very hard for many people to believe it, but it's true. I mean it's 47th place in the world for freedom of press now - 47th! That's far from the beacon of freedom US used to be.

Whenever I see the heavily armed and militarized police in US and how they react to protesters, it's like I'm watching news about Russia or something.

rsynnott5• 14 years ago

When _was_ it the land of the free? The period between giving black people the vote and the PATRIOT act? Even then, it was hardly number one.

JBiserkov• 14 years ago

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/is-the-united-states-...

beedogs2• 14 years ago

I left the country in 2008, and I'm wondering if I'll ever go back. It's only gotten worse since I've been gone. It's almost to the point where I'm not even sure I want to visit any time soon.

brador• 14 years ago

Who provided the list? and can we get a copy of it?

corin_4• 14 years ago

I was under the impression that it came from the government to the event organisers (who we were contracted by), but it's possible it was a list compiled by them based on their experiences (they were a South Korean company who had done a couple of Chinese events before).

The list itself was really short, it was more interesting for the fact that our video game streams would be watched closely and that we would get kicked out of the country, than for it's content.

We called it "the Ts", off the top of my head the banned words/topics were Taiwan (call it "Chinese Taipei"), Tiananmen, Tibet.. and there were two others, both (I think) beginning with the letter T.

stfu• 14 years ago

Wow, this is an open invitation for trolling. Just imagine imposing someone who is going to fly to the US on Twitter.

matdwyer• 14 years ago

It is actually pretty funny that they have a saved search for "Destroy America". Better watch what I say for the superbowl, don't want to talk about killing the patriots or anything...

franklindholm• 14 years ago

After not one but two of my acquaintances have been detained and deported at the airport on trips to the US I can't really see myself ever daring to go there. Both are Muslim, they don't have any terrorist sympathies that I know about, and one of them is even very outspoken in his refutation of violent ideologies.

It's funny but I feel much more comfortable visiting China.

ch0wn• 14 years ago

There must be a better source for this news than The Sun.

viraptor• 14 years ago

If the sun is really the best source for that information, then I'm not sure it's to be believed.

rmc2• 14 years ago

And the UK convicted people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Paul_Chambers

perfunctory5• 14 years ago

US is beginning to remind me of Soviet Union

Lewton• 14 years ago

The apologists in the comments are pretty sickening. But I guess that's what I get for clicking on a link to the sun

gitarr• 14 years ago

I don't know what else to say then people like those border agents and the incredible stupidity they seem to posses are a bigger danger to humanity than anyone else could ever be.

It's so ridiculous that it's not even funny anymore and I for one will not conduct business with, nor visit the US before things change for the better there.

They have to treat their own people better as well as visitors, not only the rich.

I know there are still worse countries, but only just, and it's never a good thing to measure oneself against bad examples.

lignuist3• 14 years ago

US authorities should adjust their webmining algorithms.

perfunctory5• 14 years ago

For what? So that they can spot real terrorists who post their plans on-line?

lignuist3• 14 years ago

For instance... No, it was more a joke. :) I think we all know, that trying to catch terrorist via twitter is pointless.

perfunctory5• 14 years ago

Comments on the article's page are even scarier than the article itself.

tomelders2• 14 years ago

I'd like to remind the wider international HN community that Sun readers are not representative of the UK...

But I can't, because sadly they are.

RexRollman2• 14 years ago

Personally, after reading comments on news and sports sites in general, I am amazed that any of them even allow commenting. It is amazing how thoughtless some people can be.

jrmg• 14 years ago

I've thought this myself before. My rationalization is that most of the commenters are also regular readers - probably disproportionately regular, as they return to read replies to their comments - and so generate a disproportionately large numbers of page views. The sites are scared to turn them off lest the commenters stop returning, hurting ad revenue.

Would be nice to hear from anyone who can confirm or deny this hypothesis.

netcan3• 14 years ago

some gems:

serves them right for putting up stupid comments like that on a public site where the world can see

At least the yanks have got it right. If that was here, it would be completly different... they would be welcome even more with a brass band waiting for them at arrivals with hand outs, benefits and housing all sorted for them

Perhaps if they spoke or 'tweeted' to each other in proper English........................... Or is it just me getting old? : )

No doubt that Twitter has replaced Facebook as THE medium for proving yourself to be a prime CHUMP....

How are Americans supposed to know that its British Slang. They did the right thing by detaining them as they believed they were a threat. The problem is that since Facebook, Twitter etc, people enter their whole lives on the internet, when 99.999999% of people really dont care. Its acutally good to see that America's Security is high that two ordinary brummies saying something on Twitter was picked up and they were questioned about it. Wish Britain had that kind of security.

Twitter/Facebook is not private, its public. Get some common sense people.

serves them right, the bloody idiots. what kind of morons post those kinds of statements ?

After the amount of people who died on 9/11, of course they are twitchy when it comes to intercepting perceived threats. Terrorist don't come with a big sign on their head! So if a couple of idiots who thought it was funny to 'joke' about destroying someone’s country on a 'public' network lose their holiday that's hard luck, but the US probably feel that, better safe than sorry, is the more important option. Not really for us to preach when we can't even deport those we know to be a threat!

This is terrifying. It's like Idiocracy!

swombat3• 14 years ago

Well, it is the Sun we're talking about here. It does have a very specific target audience.

mahmud• 14 years ago

Shenanigans.

1) Where did they get the pictured Homeland Security report if HS "declined to comment"? If accurate, it looks like the sort of communication that an agency that refused to comment on an story would not be too quick to divulge. There is no mention of a FOI application, which I'm not even sure two foreigners are entitled to.

2) The two posing clowns are just that kind you would expect to be the butt of jokes. They're so insanely benign, they must have been created for the sole purpose of harmlessness.

3) It's the Sun.

ananthrk• 14 years ago

Did you also notice Tweeter in that report?

dkersten2• 14 years ago

Where can I get an account on this Tweeter website...?

csomar• 14 years ago

His Twitter account updates are protected http://twitter.com/leighbryan

jgroome• 14 years ago

NOW they are...

tripzilch• 14 years ago

> Where did they get the pictured Homeland Security report if HS "declined to comment"?

Good point. Though fabricating imagery like that is so much par for the course for Sun that it doesn't tell much about the truthfulness of the rest of the story.

Similarly, that photo isn't necessarily them either.

And perhaps neither their names ...

You know maybe you're right :-)

As a story though, it's completely plausible. In most countries customs you can get in serious trouble for joking about bombs. Adjust that for America's larger-than-life paranoia culture and tweeting about "destroying America" (not even a real threat) is a perfectly logical thing for them to get all worked up about.

I think it's important to respect people's cultural norms, even if we do not understand them. Just like you wouldn't order a glass of milk during an Italian business lunch.

(They get seriously offended if you do that and no I don't know why)

toyg• 14 years ago

Offended? No, they'd just think you're either crazy or taking the mickey. Only the cook would get offended (milk would kill taste).

Joeboy• 14 years ago

> Where did they get the pictured Homeland Security report if HS "declined to comment"?

The Daily Mail article captions it as "Paperwork handed to Mr Van Bryan".

May be shenanigans, but I don't see any particular reason to think so aside from the fact it's reported by the Sun/Mail.

danh• 14 years ago

That is quite a strong reason, though.

burgerbrain2• 14 years ago

Shenanigans?

Nah. Simulation.

alex-g• 14 years ago

If you are refused entry to the US, they take a statement and give you a copy. It looks like this is that statement.

yaix• 14 years ago

Just another prove that the terrorists won after all :(

babarock• 14 years ago

I am not really familiar with the Sun, but people here on HN seem to dismiss the story as a hoax because it's featured on the this website/newspaper. Can anyone please clarify what's its reputation and why should it be mistrusted? Thanks.

tomelders2• 14 years ago

I wouldn't go as far as to say that the Sun makes stuff up... but they certainly don't question a "good story" as much as they should and seem to print almost everything at face value. It's the kind of paper that has sensationalist headlines about pederasts on the front page, topless pics of barely legal girls on page 3 and no sense of irony.

This particular article falls into the Jingoism style articles that the Sun is famous for. It's readers are, by and large, xenophobic bigots obsessed with reality TV and C-List celebrities.

They're the closest thing with have to Fox News here in the UK, (that's no coincidence as it's owned by Newscorp) and as such, articles in the Sun about other countries should be given the same level of credence you would give Bill O'Riley's comments about anything.

Other british tabloids you would do well to dismiss entirely out of hand are

- The Mail - The Mirror - The Express - The Sport (often hilarious)

arethuza2• 14 years ago

"I wouldn't go as far as to say that the Sun makes stuff up..."

You really think Freddie Starr ate that hamster?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freddie_Starr#.22Freddie_Starr_...

rsynnott5• 14 years ago

Unfortunately, a lot of the US media doesn't seem to be aware of this. There was an amusing incident a while back where Wired had an article claiming that the British government was installing CCTVs in peoples' houses to watch their parenting. There source for this nonsense was that most reliable of papers, the Express.

sambeau2• 14 years ago

"I wouldn't go as far as to say that the Sun makes stuff up…"

The Leveson enquiry has already shown that they have done, regularly.

waitwhat• 14 years ago

Sister paper to the News of the World (home of the "phone hacking") and home of Page 3 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Page_Three (photos of topless glamour models).

philwelch• 14 years ago

For one, it published claims (later discredited) that football hooligans were partially responsible for the Hillsborough disaster, where mistakes in crowd control led to almost 100 deaths and 800 injuries among supporters of Liverpool F.C.; sales of The Sun are measurably lower in Liverpool to this day because of that story.

notahacker• 14 years ago

The Sun is famous for headlines like "Freddie Starr ate my hamster" and "Werewolf seized in Southend". The American equivalent would be something like the National Enquirer.

Garvey• 14 years ago

Mainly for things like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsborough_disaster#The_Sun_n...

RexRollman2• 14 years ago

And people wonder why I do nothing on the Internet under my own name.

tintin• 14 years ago

Are you serious? Do you think you can't be tracked down by all the IP-addresses you are using?

loopdoend• 14 years ago

I think even more importantly than using a VPN in some foreign country, I would start by not joking about 'destroying America' so they wouldn't have a reason to bother me. Then again I have no intention of ever visiting the States again. It is sad that as a Canadian I feel threatened by our proximity to our neighbors to the South.

Vivtek5• 14 years ago

By DHS? They can't even spell Twitter right.

chrisacky• 14 years ago

Just for anyone unfamiliar with thesun news paper. They are the paper that goes out with the sole intention of polluting a story with utter crap just to fuel drama and sell more papers.

They are the by far the worst paper owned by the Murdoch empire and is an embarrassment to the whole of the UK.

Anything written by the Sun can be discarded as total balls. </end rant>

hobbes• 14 years ago

Your comment has the same balance and factual content as an editorial in the Sun.

shasta• 14 years ago

Were you going for irony?

ehsanu1• 14 years ago

This sentence is false?

You seem to be contradicting and confirming your parent at the same time.

drats• 14 years ago

Has anyone done a study of how much this is damaging the tourism industry in the USA? I have 1001 places I want to go, but all those in the USA shifted down a lot lower on the list after they started a lot of the airport security/TSA measures.

Airport security stuff annoys me to no end in other places too because half of them, or more than half, seem to literally be standing around doing nothing and the other half do their jobs rudely.

panacea• 14 years ago

This is just a small data-point, but I was seriously worried about visiting the US based on what I'd heard about customs and immigration there. And this is from a white 'middle-class' male living in London with no beard.

I ended up visiting anyway (I really wanted to research Philly Cheesesteaks, Maine Lobster and see the colours of the New England Autumn/Fall), but I definitely thought long and hard about it and was apprehensive.

I also made sure my medical travel insurance was solid.

Now, maybe I live in a paranoid white-male bubble that reads about this stuff, and that informed my apprehension, but I personally think it would turn off many, many people from visiting.

mseebach3• 14 years ago

Any friction will ultimately affect "conversions", although I think the friction is probably smaller that we'd think. Most people don't spend much time reading and fretting about the TSA online, so for those, standing in line for half an hour and having your passport stamped is just part of the excitement of travelling (for less experienced travelers). As a fraction of the total time and bother of intercontinental travel, it's almost negligible.

reader5000• 14 years ago

I'm American and it turns me off from travelling. All air travel now carries the inherent risk of sexual molestation from a high school dropout. No thanks, Ill just stay home and enjoy twitter, apparently now along with 1000 US federal agents. America is getting more awesome every week.

GFischer8• 14 years ago

I've actively avoided the U.S. even though I still want to go, because of those same issues.

I even was a few meters from the U.S. (Niagara Falls) and avoided going because of all the visa complications and expenses plus the security measures (if it had been a given I'd be accepted I would have gone, but they don't like young unattached people saying they want to do "tourism", they expect we'll want to stay).

Vivtek5• 14 years ago

The Canadian side of the Falls is by far the better, anyway.

madflo• 14 years ago

French national who visited Canada a few months ago here. I crossed the US/CA border with only a small backpack ( I left my luggage at the bus station ) and the US border agents after the Rainbow Bridge where fun and welcoming.

It wasn't the case in SFO, after a 12 hours flight from Paris, the agent was OK but far from welcoming.

kitsune_• 14 years ago

I decided not to visit America this year with my gf because of some recent horror stories from my friends. Instead we'll visit South Korea for a month.

swombat3• 14 years ago

I've actively avoided the US because of its immigration policy </anecdotal evidence>.

antidaily• 14 years ago

It's bad everywhere I've been. Europe has basically the same security measures. I was just through Schipul and Zurich.

epscylonb• 14 years ago

As I understand it, pre 9/11 air travel domestically in the USA was like hopping on a bus.

Europe had terrorist incidents involving planes long before 9/11. As a consequence air travel (domestic or international) had greater security checks but nowhere near the level we see now in America.

Here is the problem, no amount of security checks can guarantee that there will not be a terrorist incident on a plane.

Even accounting for 9/11, other terrorist incidents on airplanes and plane crashes, the likelihood of you being killed in one is very small.

But the politicians are faced with a decision, respect civil liberties and relax security to common sense levels or ratchet up security to ridiculous levels. If they do the first and a terrorist attack occurs they will get the blame.

Ultimately it is a risk problem, and it is the voters that need to tell those in charge that they understand the risk and won't blame the government for "not protecting them" if something bad happens to them.

Nick_C• 14 years ago

> Has anyone done a study of how much this is damaging the tourism industry in the USA?

It has been reported here in Australia that the US tourism bureau (or whatever they are called) is very concerned about it. Numbers are way down over the last several years. They will be running an ad campaign this year

jgrahamc2• 14 years ago

There's a better version of the story on the Daily Mail web site that has a picture of the documents given to these folks when they were barred: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2093796/British-tour...

corin_4• 14 years ago

Only The Sun could make an article in the Daily Mail appear good by comparison.

Amazing quote from the girl in this piece though:

"We just wanted to have a good time on holiday. That was all Leigh meant in his tweet. He would not hurt anyone. He is gay.'

Wondering if I can use that as evidence that I wouldn't hurt anything if I ever have any problems with the TSA..

jgrahamc2• 14 years ago

Reading Ms. Banting's Twitter stream makes me wonder if they weren't really barred from entry on the grounds of being total numbskulls.

watmough• 14 years ago

That is just awesome. It's like one of the better sketches off Little Britain.

mgrouchy• 14 years ago

Best part of the documents is that they say he posted these things on his "tweeter" account.

Worst part is that these documents exist in the first place.

joelrunyon• 14 years ago

I was going to say the same thing.

If they're going to use "tweeter" as a information source, they should as least get it's name right.

wazoox• 14 years ago

As said Richelieu, who knew his police business:

“Avec deux lignes d’écriture d’un homme, on peut faire le procès du plus innocent“.

Unfortunately, this wasn't representative of a time of utmost personal freedom...

pagekalisedown• 14 years ago

Can you please translate?

mooism22• 14 years ago

Not the exact wording, but something along the lines of "Give me two lines of text from an innocent man, and I can get him convicted."

bambax• 14 years ago

I knew a version from Voltaire which goes like this: "give me one sentence from anyone and I'll have him hanged."

Of course if it comes from Richelieu it's more interesting since he actually could have people hanged, their castles destroyed, their properties confiscated, etc.

kragen3• 14 years ago

My French is not so good, but my translation is:

"With two lines written by a man, one can arrest the most innocent."

ck2• 14 years ago

Please end Homeland Security Theater before they cause an international incident that cannot be undone.

(but also, this is the Sun and linked from HN? Really?)

paraschopra• 14 years ago

Wow, just wow! Is this story real? If so, shame on US authorities.

patrickg• 14 years ago

That reminds me of a story of a relative, who was working in a local German bank (Sparkasse). They were screening the text on money transfers (Überweisung) for words like "anthrax". I couldn't believe that they had such an order.

GFischer8• 14 years ago

I work for an insurance company, and we have similar stupid orders.

They're mostly to show the U.S. that we're cooperating on anti-terrorism and avoid being put on blacklists, no-one expects us to catch anything.

chernevik• 14 years ago

If the TSA were taking decisions based on actual threats and threat vectors you'd see very different behaviors and structures. As they aren't, they lack any proper standard to avoid stupidity like this.

J3L24042• 14 years ago

Reddit now has more credibility than HN.

beedogs2• 14 years ago

America sucks more every day. It truly amazes me how far it's fallen in the past 20 years.

gee_totes3• 14 years ago

So, aside from the discussion around the journalistic standards of the Sun, now the Department of Homeland Security is monitoring the twitter accounts of British citizens?

Furthermore, how did DHS match up a twitter handle with a passport number?

rachelbythebay• 14 years ago

That's the sort of discussion I'd love to hear. There's surprisingly little about the privacy ramifications here of somehow associating real people to an online account.

Granted, the tech exists. Google has been doing it for a while now. Anyone who's gotten the little "is this you?" thing when doing a search knows what I'm talking about.

gee_totes3• 14 years ago

I wonder how many false positives happen with these match ups. Or if the people in question could have just denied that they made the tweets.

This also makes me super freaked out about Google+'s real names policy, since it will literally be providing the United States Government with a massive surveillance network.

shareme• 14 years ago

Folks lets remember something, unlike some regimes the USA admits it makes mistakes and corrects them.. sometimes you have to wait along time..but in contrast to a non-democratic republic there is no equal in terms of a gov/democracy that changes to become better.

jeswin• 14 years ago

No doubt USA remains way better than many other countries. But that isn't what people are complaining about. It is the paranoia taking away a way of life that everyone seemed to like, even people (like me) who live outside the US.

The first time I visited the US (this was after 9/11), I was surprised to see the extent of security checks at airports. In my mind, I had notions of people getting into airplanes like they get into a buses or trains. Now there were lots of armed security, queues, list of things not to do. And I had no clue why elderly women were getting frisked.

I stood wondering what would have happened if they just did away with these checks. If the money and time saved could be put into health care, it would have saved way more lives than would be lost in terrorist attacks. And people could have generally had a better time.

alanmeaney• 14 years ago

I wouldn't consider this a US only problem. Anyone from UK/Ireland will remember this case: http://news.techeye.net/internet/stephen-fry-prepared-for-ja...

exDM69• 14 years ago

I work for a US company in Europe and I'm seriously concerned about my security if and when the time comes for me to visit the company HQ. I'm a completely harmless person, but sometimes I look like a bearded pirate (arr!), my passport photo looks like I'm a recently escaped convict, I've ordered flight simulators and aviation maps with my credit card from the US and my police file mentions a short wrestling match with a police officer and some other encounters with the law. I've been involved in organizing underground music events and I've probably been photographed by security officials in political protests I've attended.

If people get locked down and refused entry based on a few tweets, I'm worried that my background check will get me a special four S treatment from airport security officials.

I would not consider going to the US for a vacation. Thankfully there are five other continents to visit.

sudonim• 14 years ago

I live in the US. Someone put me on a list of people who retweet wikileaks tweets and I'm concerned. Our policy towards visitors and immigrants has been increasingly hostile. Citizens get it a little better, but increasingly bad too.

Minor quibble with your last sentence:

> I would not consider going to the US for a vacation. Thankfully there are five other continents to visit.

Mexico, Canada, Cuba, Dominican Republic, Guatemala, Costa Rica, Panama, El Salvador, Honduras all share North America with the United States. And Antarctica is a continent too (7 total, not 6).

Vivtek5• 14 years ago

If you're going to list Cuba and the Dominican Republic, you shouldn't leave out Jamaica and all the Lesser Antilles - I highly recommend visits to any of them!

freehunter3• 14 years ago

Antarctica isn't really a hot (no pun intended) vacation area. People go there to work and conduct research, but there's no hotels or resorts.

Besides Canada, the rest on your list don't scream "freedom" or "welcoming to foreigners" to me. I'm not saying Cuba isn't an interesting place to visit, but a Cuban vacation isn't really comparable to a US vacation in terms of sight-seeing and luxury.

Though as an American, my viewpoint of Cuba might be skewed. There's a lot of unwarranted and false anti-Cuban propaganda in this country, it makes it hard to tell the truth from the lies.

rmc2• 14 years ago

Well looks like your company cannot send you to the USA. After all, if you were a gay person married to someone of the same gender and your multinational employer wanted to send you to the office in Saudi Arabia, then you should have the right to refuse.

Likewise, you have an perfectly valid excuse why you cannot go the USA.

paganel• 14 years ago

So I guess "I want to kill the President of the United States of America" is still illegal, isn't it? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEQOvyGbBtY

J3L24042• 14 years ago

Even if this story is accurate, which is unlikely, the righteous indignation of the comments here is even more pathetic. The U.S is like China and Russia, please. That is an insult to people actually living in oppression. Maybe do something productive instead.

netcan3• 14 years ago

In an interview with Anthony Bourdain (Vice Guide to Travel) he mentioned that even in North Korea he is less worried about being picked up by authorities (than criminals). It usually just ends in deportation.

It's very easy to blow off incidents like this with a 'not much harm done' attitude. The truth is that a paranoia and senselessness from authority is what makes a regime like Russia or China and the US is quickly going in that direction.

burgerbrain2• 14 years ago

"Stop complaining citizen. It's worse elsewhere."

hopeless• 14 years ago

It's stupid things like this that have kept me from travelling to the US for work or conferences since 2003. I've actively avoided them. Unfortunately, we'll probably have to attend a wedding in NY next year but I'm not looking forward to the experience

sambeau2• 14 years ago

Does anyone know what the quote mentioned from Family Guy is?

buro92• 14 years ago

Those guys are screwed now.

Refusal of access means that they'll never get in on the visa waiver program and any employment in the future that might be with a multi-national will be limited by their ability to travel. They just won't be able to enter the USA without going through an arduously long process every time.

I've been telling my friends for the longest time to moderate everything that they say on the internet, in private and in public. Little of it will be used in your favour, and all of it can and will be used against you.

It's not far from the way you would have to think if you were living under the Stasi. You'd have to think about how your public actions could be perceived, and you'd have to consider whether you trust any present parties for private actions.

The biggest difference between people today and people under the Stasi is the awareness of it. Those under the Stasi knew to change their actions.

The only thing to which these two are guilty of, is a failure to understand that this is not the world they thought it was.

mintplant• 14 years ago

Obligatory XKCD: http://xkcd.com/137/

buro92• 14 years ago

Someone downvoted you, so have an upvote.

I wholeheartedly agree with that XKCD comic. However the thing is... speaking openly and care free, accepting the consequences of your actions into the future.... those are things that you need to know you're doing.

That is: If you put your foot in it because you hold beliefs about the freedom of expression, then you do so knowingly. If you put your foot in it because you believe the world to be innocent, then you pay the price disproportionately.

I just don't think people should be innocent about the world around them and how it (their government, big business, everything) works.

This debate brings to mind this: http://lesswrong.com/lw/372/defecting_by_accident_a_flaw_com...

If we don't know we're constantly being interrogated, then how can we prevent ourselves from defecting by accident?

i386• 14 years ago

I love to travel and visit the US frequently but it's not the end of the world if they don't get to come back to the US. There is a whole lot more of the world than America.

Ryan_Shmotkin• 14 years ago

I think you are going a bit too far there with the "screwed".

There are quite a few billions of people who never went or will go to the US - with little effect on their life.

"Welcome to America, home of the corrupt and the beuracrats"

mikeash• 14 years ago

After an experience like that, I doubt I'd ever want to return to the US. Makes me terribly ashamed of my country, for sure.

_b8r02• 14 years ago

> Those guys are screwed now.

Really? Are you sure? They've never been before and it doesn't look like they'd even want to go after this. I haven't been to the US since 1999 and I don't feel screwed in any way shape or form.

Plenty of multi-nationals don't require you to travel to the states, even here in the UK. Travelling to the US is expensive, holding conference calls in the afternoon is much cheaper.

> It's not far from the way you would have to think if you were living under the Stasi.

You'll have to forgive me for finding this a little hyperbolic. Not as hyperbolic as I'd like, but still fairly hyperbolic.

rnernento• 14 years ago

At this point I'm scared to comment...

jwr• 14 years ago

The land of the free.

MrAnger• 14 years ago

unfortunately i cant read this title as my Block Murdoch extension wont allow it :-) But free speech is dead along with the right to protest and next will be political freedom

jorgem• 14 years ago

TSA is "disrupting" our tourism industry.

brianobush• 14 years ago

It is rather hard to tie down context from 140 characters. Even non-technical users could figure that one out.

tokenadult2• 14 years ago

Maybe it's time to differ from hivemind here. I should make clear that I cherish my right as an American, which I exercise liberally at home and abroad, to criticize the American government in general. I also like to call out specific elected or appointed officials (for example, the President, whoever he is each term) any time I think they are making mistakes. Participants on Hacker News who are also my Facebook friends know that I am not in the least bit shy about expressing political opinions contrary to those of the United States federal government leaders or those of my state government. That said, I think a foreign national kidding around about a trip in which he or she will "destroy America" shouldn't be surprised to be questioned about that by law enforcement officers. I have traveled to other countries, and have lived in another country as a long-term resident, and I don't express to cross a border without someone from the other country checking me out to see if I will obey the laws while I am in their country.

As a more general statement contrary to the main thrust of comments here, I have no fear that the United States of America will lose out on immigrants or business visitors any time soon. Any time here on Hacker News that we have a thread about United States visa policies, dozens of participants complain that they wish it was easier to come to the United States to do business, to visit, or to settle permanently. The United States is still a huge draw to people from all over the world, as I was especially aware when I lived in an international dormitory with students from all over the globe in another country. The rate of immigration to the United States has ups and downs, with the downs coming especially at times when the United States economy is in depression or recession, but on the whole the United States is one of the few countries in the world that still count on sustained, large, long-term population growth from net immigration alone, even if the rate of natural increase falls below replacement levels. (And it could be argued that the below-replacement birth rates of many countries are parents' expression of little hope for their countries' futures, as they are not even willing to have children in those countries. The United States still has an above-replacement birth rate and thus also enjoys natural increase in population.)

So, yes, let's criticize the United States whenever any liberties of persons in the United States are curtailed, but let's be realistic about where else people can travel and kid around about socially harmful or illegal behavior. If one is to leave the United States for more freedom, where would one go? (Fewer examples have been named in other comments than I would have expected, so far.) Considering ALL the trade-offs, which places are really, truly plainly better places to live than the United States? Which places are better to visit for tourism?

emil10001• 14 years ago

While I agree with what you're saying, I think that the main issue here is that the US does not have a sense of humor. This is a major disappointment for upcoming comics hoping for a cushy job with the Fed.

Seriously though, what they said was stupid, and obviously not protected speech (if said here in the US), but it seems a bit overzealous to ban them from the country based on a bad joke. This, to me, seems analogous to those unfortunate people who mention 'bomb' or something while in line at the TSA - usually saying something to the effect of, 'I really can't take my cupcake through security? It's not like it's a bomb or something.' I think that we should be spending our resources dealing with serious threats, not people with a poor sense of humor.

radu_floricica• 14 years ago

I don't think you get the point here. This story is not about US denying entry to two delayed teenagers wanting to get drunk on holiday. It's about US customs looking like idiots over what is obviously a joke.

You're talking about how it's perfectly fine for a country to ask you questions and make sure you don't intend to break any laws while you're visiting. And how US won't suffer from a lack of tourists and immigrants. I'm telling you that's not the problem here: the problem is we're more and more inclined to look at Americans as idiots by extension. I checked twice while reading the article that it's not on Onion - I did not expect the first comment here to be from somebody saying basically "we don't care about 'them foreigners, they shouldn't come if they don't like it".

Of course, we don't know all the facts. I'm inclined to guess that when the customs officials talked to them they found independent reasons to deny entry, but either they kept them confidential or simply they wouldn't make such a good story.

I apologize for using the word "idiot". It is not meant as a personal insult, but to express what this article makes non-americans feel about this kind of stories. I definitely do not mean to use it as an insult here, so please do not take it as such.

galadriel• 14 years ago

While I understand your concern about foreign travelers, I think you are a bit naive in defending acts of your border security. It should concern you that these people have absolute authority to perform any search and seizures at their whims, and also can deny entry to anyone. Legally, a US citizen cannot be denied entry, but they will use any possible power they have (which is vast) to keep you out of your country if they want to. [1] All in name of freedom. So watch out next time you use your freedom of speech while returning to your own country.

US is still a country of nice people, and my interaction with border official has been nothing but pleasant. Although there is a lot more security theater than when travelling to other countries, the officials from TSA, CBP and other agencies have been courteous and professional. However, it would still be a bad idea if you think that denying entry on jokes is fine.

As to your claims of US being #1 in freedom and no place for anyone else to go, I am pretty sure that countries in Europe will be more receptive to your entry even after all your jokes, because they usually don't pretend to have a security theater to "protect" themselves from "terrorists".

[1] http://www.aclunc.org/issues/government_surveillance/u.s._ci...

rdouble• 14 years ago

Considering ALL the trade-offs, which places are really, truly plainly better places to live than the United States?

My sister left Minnesota for Australia 7 years ago and lives down the street from the beach, it's sunny 300 days a year, temp never below 50 degrees. She makes 2.5x what she did in the USA for the same job, only has to work 4 days a week, husband makes six figures as a tradesmen, family gets paid $5K whenever she has a kid, mandated 18 weeks of maternity and PATERNITY leave, government supported superannuation retirement fund, free health care, and savings accounts are getting 6%. Politics are mainly an afterthought, taking up little time on the news and almost never a divisive topic in daily conversation. There's very little religious influence; you're never in a situation where "because the bible said so" is considered a serious argument. She's surrounded by "mate-y" people who take friendship seriously and invite neighbors over for BBQ, and you can get an excellent cappuccino even from the guy in the trailer set up next to the construction site.

twopi• 14 years ago

And that is why I'm going back to OZ in 3 months. Can't wait! A country where people smile.

_b8r02• 14 years ago

So two questions here:

Considering ALL the trade-offs, which places are really, truly plainly better places to live than the United States?

I haven't been to the United States since 1999. However I have been to a lot of other places, some good, some bad and I can honestly say that most of Canada seems to be fine, albeit a little colder than most of the US. The UK (although I'm biased, as I live here) has a lot to offer while still being culturally close enough to the US. Australia is a wonderful country far better than most, but culturally somewhat coarser than the US. New Zealand is also good and slightly more reserved than Australia.

Outside of that I've had good experiences in the Netherlands (lots of English spoken too if languages aren't your thing), Spain, France and Turkey (aside from the actual bombings that happen relatively often without the government losing it's shit, but then the government losing it's shit and doing stupid stuff like trying to block youtube). I would say that Greece is probably not a good place to go right now which is a shame as it's a lovely place.

Australia and Turkey both have fairly good economies, Canada's not doing too badly either on that front. The UK has a thriving tech/hacker community in most major cities and while the economy is shaky London's still a great place in Europe to launch a startup.

Which places are better to visit for tourism?

Again, I only have limited experience of America and it's caught in a bubble from two decades ago. My memories of America are incredibly friendly, wonderful people, good service in restaurants, everything being too big (from portion sizes to highways to the distances between things) and some really impressive modern art and culture.

Canada I'd highly recommend but it isn't that different (although Montreal is wonderful and Vancouver is great too, although I've never been to Seattle so I don't know how similar it is). Anywhere you go in Europe you're going to find history, art and all kinds of stuff.

The UK is a great place for Americans to go on holiday, as is France, Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium, Spain and Italy. London and Edinburgh offer a host of things to see and do, and places like the Brecon Beacons offer the most amazing walks.

If you were to go to Istanbul I promise you an experience unlike anything you will have ever seen, heard, smelt or tasted in a 3,000 year old city that's seen earthquakes, ransackings, churches, minarets and wars over time.

The catacombs in Paris are really something else, although I always tell people to ditch the Louvre and head to Montmartre for fine French culture from la belle epoque.

Bavaria has the most amazing mountain air and there's a whole load of beautiful walks through Ludwig II's old garden, not to mention the beer and food.

Andalucia in Spain offers incredible history, art, food and fiesta from bullfighting and tapas in Seville to the Mesquita in Cordoba and the Al Hambra in Granada. Barcelona is one of the most laid back beautiful cities I've ever seen with wonderful people.

Of course all this is academic. You asked a set of questions at best seeking validation that the US is the best place in the world or an opportunity to challenge it. If I hadn't made a conscious decision not to go to the US while the DHS and TSA still stand (foolishly believing it'd all be sorted out in a few years) then I wouldn't have seen half of these places. Sure I'd have seen New York, Vegas, LA and maybe a few other places but would I trade that for Paris, Barcelona and London? Tough call to make, each to their own I guess.

k-mcgrady• 14 years ago

This story really shocked me. That's a tweet I could easily imagine myself sending. I would seriously think twice before making a trip to America now. And with the recent stories about the FBI developing software to monitor social media I can only imaging this getting worse.

blhack• 14 years ago

How the hell is the on the front page of HN?

The Sun is a rag newspaper from The UK, it is barely factual at best.

I have for some reason lost my ability to flag stories, but..."flagged" in spirit.

tkahn6• 14 years ago

I have no idea what the fuck is going on here. Comments on here are similar to what you'd find on reddit. The story is exactly the kind of thing you'd find on reddit.

drucken• 14 years ago

This is extremely unpleasant given the vast reach of US authorities worldwide, let alone just for entry into the US.

Someone could ruin your life based on just your name just by impersonating you or simply having the same name on social networking while acting in some way an authority finds offensive, even if you yourself have never used it!

It would seem you are actually safer to be the first to create closed and private accounts on Twitter, Facebook, Google+, of your actual name - even when you never ever want to give out your private information, including your name, and will never use the accounts.

GFischer8• 14 years ago

Yes, you can be in serious trouble just by having the misfortune of sharing a name with a terrorist:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Fly_List

Even senator Edward Kennedy had trouble with that one.

noonespecial• 14 years ago

You can't joke about the prophet. You can't joke about the US. Zealots just have no sense of humor.

usedtolurk• 14 years ago

The only surprising thing about this story is that it made the papers.

US immigration officials have always taken a hard line on visitors. I had a very similar experience several years before 9/11 when I was denied entry because they suspected that I MIGHT be intending to marry my then-girlfriend (a US citizen and now ex-girlfriend).

Often, when I've related my story, I've heard similar first-hand accounts of travelers being accused of trying to smuggle in drugs, etc. for no apparent reason and being denied entry, interrogated or worse. Any flimsy pretext seems sufficient. I don't know if the officials need to fill quotas or if they are trying to set examples. I'm sure some are on a power trip but in my case they seemed decent people, just determined not to be swayed by evidence or common sense.

As much as I like America (and it's people in particular) I have no desire to return.

US bars friends over Twitter joke

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