US court rules Uber and Lyft workers are contractors

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-64947695

by gostsamo • 3 years ago

218 151 3 years ago

https://www.courts.ca.gov/opinions/documents/A163655.PDF

^ Actual court ruling which is linked in the article itself.

I find the article's headline misleading. The court ruled that a proposition that was passed by voters in California which classified these drivers as contractors was mostly constitutional and would be allowed to have the effect of law, noting that California's legislative branch was free to change the law if they had the requisite votes to do so.

It wasn't the court, but California voters, which decided these workers are contractors. The court simply ruled that this is something voters are allowed to decide (and that lawmakers can change if they so choose).

akira2501• 3 years ago

Lawmakers cannot change if they so choose. Propositions amend the constitution of California. They can modify it, but they have to honor the rule itself and cannot simply remove it or abrogate it through this alteration.

Legislature can amend Proposition 22’s provisions with a statute passed by a seven-eighths majority in both houses, so long as the statute is “consistent with, and furthers the purpose of,” the initiative and the Legislature complies with certain procedural requirements

NoZebra120vClip• 3 years ago

Lawmakers cannot change if they so choose... They can modify it,

You know here all this time I thought that "modify" is a synonym of "change". So can lawmakers modify it or can they not modify it?

Dalewyn• 3 years ago

The one and only job of lawmakers is to create or change laws as they so choose.

Obviously lawmakers must still abide by laws in effect*, but they can absolutely change those laws if they have sufficient votes to do so.

Even the US Federal Constitution can be changed by lawmakers, nothing is off-limits with enough votes.

* Some countries suspend enforcement of laws within the physical space of legislative chambers. As an example, I understand over in Japan it's perfectly legal for a Diet member to murder someone in the Japanese Diet's legislative chamber because laws prohibiting murder aren't in effect in there. IANAL so I could be misled by urban legends.

arlort2• 3 years ago

passed by a seven-eighths majority in both houses

Holy mother of supermajorities ...

What's the procedure for reversing a ballot measure? Can only be done via a different ballot measure?

yonran• 3 years ago

Correction: 2020 Proposition 22 was an initiative statute that modified the Business and Professions Code (https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displayexpand...), not the California Constitution. And the clause that allowed amendments with 7/8 supermajority exists to make it easier to amend than if the clause did not exist, since by default initiatives can’t be modified by the legislature at all (Constitution Article II Sec 10(c) https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio...)! It is common to choose a threshold above the known opposition (my earlier comment with more examples https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28259306), and 7/8 is above the 73% that voted for AB5 (https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billVotesClient.xht...).

dragonwriter5• 3 years ago

Propositions amend the constitution of California.

Initiate Constitutional Amendments do, Initiative Statutes do not. Prop 22 was an initiative statute, and as such did not amend the Constitution.

Nevertheless, because the legislative power resides in the people first and is delegated by them to the legislature to the extent that they have not themselves exercised it, an initiative statute, while subordinate to the State Constitution, cannot usually be altered by the legislature (the legislature can propose changes, but they must be passed by the people.) But, OTOH, Prop 22, as you note, contains a provision allowing a legislative hypermajority to amend it, and so can, in fact, be altered by the legislature unilaterally.

On the gripping hand, though, those unilateral alterations that the legislature can make are explicitly limited, and do not include making app-based drivers regular employees rather than contractors.

diceduckmonk• 3 years ago

I find the article's headline misleading.

I see Uber stock is up 6% pre-market. That suggests to me investors thinks Uber's liabilities are reduced as a result of this ruling.

jvanderbot• 3 years ago

The fight over contractor status was versus regular employee status, which would require providing benefits. So, market rejoice, these driver folks are on their own.

Editorializing a bit, but CA referendums are so silly. I was asked to vote to resolve an employee/employer dispute in kidney dialysis centers. There's so many of those types of things.

belter• 3 years ago

That suggests to me, a lot of investors are using the wrong strategy of trying to time the market.

thejackgoode• 3 years ago

Hope eventually it’ll be it’s own category. Contractors are not generally incentivized by UX patterns, gamification and bonus systems to work more.

Eumenes• 3 years ago

Navigating the bureaucracy of a corporation as a consultant certainly seems like gamification

unfairly4820• 3 years ago

California Labor Union Leader: "Our system is broken. It would be an understatement to say we are disappointed by this decision allowing companies to buy their way out of our state’s labor laws"

Uber Executive: "Our system is working. We’re pleased that the court respected the will of the people by upholding a voter-approved law.”

wilg2• 3 years ago

Is there some reason to suspect that there was corruption involved with this ruling? Or is this just general fearmongering?

bagels• 3 years ago

The buying was the money spent to ferociously promote prop 22, not paying off judges.

LastNevadan• 3 years ago

Breaking news: people with skin in the game talk their book. Full story at eleven!

sebzim4500• 3 years ago

Worth noting that the vast majority of the actual drivers agree wtih the Uber Executive here.

josho5• 3 years ago

I imagine drivers prefer this because they saw the alternative was going back to being screwed over by the taxi companies. At least this way when they get screwed over by Uber they have a bit more say in when and how it’s being done and while that may be bad it is an improvement over what they had before.

The reality is these drivers need some kind of guild or union because as it stands they are being taken advantage.

yieldcrv2• 3 years ago

Isn't this debate largely a false dilemma?

Its obvious to me that an additional category is prudent, or that people besides employees should have access to subsidized health care premiums and some form of paid sick leave. that doesnt have to come from the employer and that doesnt have to mean that worker flexibility is curbed.

contractors can already do retirement benefits plans such as the 401k plan, running your own is far more flexible than an employee’s version

its lazy to “solve” these gaps by reclassifying workers as employees

it is also ridiculous that only giant corporations can lobby the people to get its own exemption passed to restore contractor status, other groups should have this power too. maybe an agency could put up comment periods for specific industries, removing this need from the legislature or proposition process

round hole, square peg

midoridensha• 3 years ago

or that people besides employees should have access to subsidized health care premiums and some form of paid sick leave.

Or perhaps there should be a national health insurance that all citizens could have by default?

Oh wait, this is the United States, so that'll never happen.

doktorhladnjak2• 3 years ago

The UK has a “worker” [0] classification between employee and true independent contractor. It provides protections like minimum wage and time off while preserving freedom about when and how someone works. It seems like it would fit this case well, but I doubt it will ever happen. Unions are the major force pushing for gig workers to be classified as employees because they’d be able to unionize.

[0] https://www.gov.uk/employment-status/worker

3np• 3 years ago

I initially found the choice of the word "worker" in the headline curious but with this context it makes sense coming from the BBC. Thanks.

kwhitefoot2• 3 years ago

Unions are the major force pushing for gig workers to be classified as employees because they’d be able to unionize.

What stops them unionising?

Jochim2• 3 years ago

The UK also has some of the poorest workers and working conditions when compared to neighbouring peer countries.

The worker classification has resulted in a situation of extreme precarity for millions of people by explicitly creating a class of employee that do not enjoy the same rights as those who are financially/socially better off than them. Consider the following:

Workers usually are not entitled to:
minimum notice periods if their employment will be ending, for example if an employer is dismissing them
protection against unfair dismissal
the right to request flexible working
time off for emergencies
Statutory Redundancy Pay

Frankly, this describes an employment class that outright refuses to acknowledge the humanity of those categorised under it. A closer look at the context of "time off for emergencies" exemplifies this. Compared with an "employee", a person classified as a worker is not legally entitled to leave work to:

- Attend the birth of their child. - Respond to their partner being assaulted or mugged. - Care for their child should their school close. - Maternity/Paternity leave (They are still entitled to Maternity/Paternity pay however).

Consider also that many of the protections workers are supposed to enjoy are simply not enforced and that the people who fall under the category are unlikely to have the financial means, free time, or information to bring a legal challenge should their rights be violated.

Given how obviously the classification erodes employment protections, I really don't think there lies a justification for the creation of this underclass other than it being profitable for those with money.

josho5• 3 years ago

maybe an agency could put up comment periods for specific industries

The problem is there is no agency with a financial incentive to support the individual drivers. The drivers don’t earn enough on their own to create meaningful representation. If the drivers somehow were able to pool their resources under some sort of a guild then they might. But that will take a lot of organizing and someone with resources that can stop driving to spend time organizing.

And therein is the problem. We have a large labor pool that is not protected by employment law and is easily exploited through low pay rates. So how is a driver supposed to find money to fund their own 401k plans when they are barely covering their costs?

JumpCrisscross2• 3 years ago

no agency with a financial incentive to support the individual drivers

There is a massive political operation trying to represent drivers. They just didn't bother asking the drivers what they want, they made assumptions for them. That's why we have this multi-year string of bills, propositions and lawsuits.

sourcecodeplz2• 3 years ago

In Europe, you can't drive for Uber or deliver food without a standard work contract which includes: healthcare, pension, payroll and income taxes.

Drivers here PAY private companies a weekly amount in order to work for Uber et all (to have that contract). Uber et all work with these companies only, not individuals.

alchemist1e9• 3 years ago

How does the prevalence and costs of Uber and food delivery in European cities compare to US cities? I don’t know myself, just wondering how this difference effects the end consumer.

teetertater• 3 years ago

Uber exists in Vienna but I've never found a reason to use it. Public transport is amazing, and the only time I would need a car (to the airport at night), taxis are cheaper

concordDance• 3 years ago

User costs the same as old taxis where I live and there's no reason to use it.

a012• 3 years ago

My view from a few times in Europe is, public transport is preferred during the day, but if you want to go out late in the evening ride sharing and/or taxi are way more convenient because there would be limited train/bus working.

atchoo2• 3 years ago

Uber taxis have died in my UK city. The quality was always weak compared to the very good taxi services which was perfectly fine pre-Uber. Uber had vouchers and a marketing push that made it a thing but people can't get rides now. Rental electric scooters are dominant now.

Food delivery use is declining with the cost of living problems people are facing. Anecdotally I saw it was making people feel bad so it's a habit people have wanted to break - junk food, cold, missing items and paying the price of a week's worth of groceries... ugh... it made people hate themselves but they kept doing it because the convenience was like a drug.

Where I live in the city, everyone has a dozen food outlets within a five minute walk so it was never a rational choice.

pas2• 3 years ago

Budapest (no labor contract required for either):

Taxi services have licensing requirements and the rates are set by the government (Uber left the market), typical ride is 10-30 EUR. (Eg. airport to city center is 30+, also around 30+ min.)

Food delivery can be done by anyone, no licensing requirements. Around 700 HUF (about 2 EUR).

furyg3• 3 years ago

Here in Amsterdam, the only drivers that are allowed to drive for Uber are licensed taxi drivers. They tried using scabs here but the city ended that pretty quickly.

wilg2• 3 years ago

I'd be curious to know how this actually breaks down at the end of the day, in dollars, if you were to fully account for all the money. For example, factor in the cost of getting nonemployer health insurance through an exchange, whatever the equivalent of a pension would be such as using an IRA, etc. (Not sure what "payroll and income taxes" mean in this context.)

I don't have a clear sense of how it all nets out, besides loose high-level mostly political assumptions about various social programs that give me a vague sense Europe is going to be better here. Assuming someone was able to take advantage of all the various programs and whatnot in both the US and EU, how does the actual efficiency of delivering these services net out, fully considered. I wouldn't be surprised with a result that showed it is actualy more similar than you'd think, but I also wouldn't be surprised to learn that Europe is doing significantly better on this metric. I just don't know!

lm28469• 3 years ago

If you remove pension and healthcare alone that's probably not too far from 30% in most EU country (+ the matching from your employer), you also lose paid vacation, parental leave, unemployment benefits, &c. I'm not even sure getting twice the hourly rate would make up for it, at least not for the average Joe.

Now it's all nice and fun when you're an IT contractor charging 60$+ per hour, when you're a uber driver making on average 18$ an hour (according to google) it's not that bright, and you still have to maintain your car, pay for gas, &c.

how does the actual efficiency of delivering these services net out

If you're at the bottom, as uber contractors are, you'll have a better time in Europe, if you're in the top tier and can afford private health insurance, private unemployment benefits, &c. you probably have better services in the US, at a cost

I lived in both systems and I'd say the EU one brings an overall peace of mind you can't replicate in the US unless you're quite rich

pas2• 3 years ago

You can deliver people or food as an entrepreneur (sub)contractor in Hungary.

I would be surprised if all 20+ countries were unanimous on this.

weberer• 3 years ago

No, that is wrong. At least in Finland, Wolt drivers are independent contractors. Their entire delivery fleet is composed of third world immigrants who are willing to work for peanuts for no benefits. It is exploitative and the current government doesn't want to do anything to change it.

Whenever I see a post on HN that says "In Europe, blah blah blah" it is bullshit 80% of the time. Sometimes the poster is extrapolating laws from his country to the other 43 countries on the continent, but usually it is just completely made up bullshit based on wishful thinking. I've learned to never trust these comments unless they provide a source.

https://wolt.com/pages/en/fin/courier-center-faq-finland#lin...

Are Courier Partners employees of Wolt?
No. Courier Partners are not employees of Wolt, they don’t have a boss or predetermined work shifts. Wolt Courier Partners are contractors, Wolt pays for each task a Courier Partner has committed to deliver and has completed.
Like all entrepreneurs, Courier Partners are in charge of their own: taxes, driving log, insurances, compulsory motor vehicle insurance (if they make deliveries with a car or a scooter), pension security, and financial security during periods of illness and unemployment.
Like all entrepreneurs/independent contractors, Courier Partners are in charge of their own financial security during periods of illness and unemployment. In practice, this means that Wolt does not provide compensation for sick leave or health services on days when Courier Partners are not able to make deliveries.
Everyone who has a municipality of residence in Finland is entitled to use public healthcare services. As an entrepreneur, Courier Partners are encouraged to consider arranging occupational health care coverage for themselves. Public medical centers and private hospitals can help Courier Partners with matters regarding occupational health care.

__s• 3 years ago

Generalizing what may be happening in one European country as "In Europe" is like saying the US never lifted prohibition because there's still a few dry counties

Tried to find source of which exact place made the changes this person suggested, but only found similarly vague "EU commission proposes..."

https://www.wsj.com/articles/uber-to-offer-limited-health-in...

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/09/uber-deliveroo-and-gig-econo...

Meanwhile, maybe they were talking about England, which would be unrelated to any EU commission: https://www.personneltoday.com/hr/uber-to-give-drivers-medic...

Strom• 3 years ago

Their entire delivery fleet is composed of third world immigrants who are willing to work for peanuts for no benefits.

It's similar in neighboring Estonia. However the reasons are more than just willingness to work for peanuts. These people are also very willing to break the law.

A lot of the workers are in the country with either tourist or student visas and aren't allowed to work. These delivery companies couldn't even legally hire them. However the way the law works, in the case of contractors, it is the contractor's responsibility to make sure they follow the law. A lot of these people don't even understand that. They just sign up on their phone and get money. What law?

Similar case with taxation. Employers need to pay a lot of taxes per employee. With contractors that requirement is shifted. All the taxes are now the contractor's duty. The delivery contractors, who are not paid a lot in the first place, aren't exactly going out of their way to give away half their earnings. This got to be such a big problem that the government actually had to pass a new law, which came into effect January 2023. At the end of the year, all these delivery companies will need to supply the tax office a full report with how much money they paid each contractor and the contractor's info. Then the tax office can see if the accurate taxes are being paid or not.

unity1001• 3 years ago

No, that is wrong. At least in Finland

And in Spain and France, its the other way. With the new Euparl draft law soon going to make it mandatory.

https://techcrunch.com/2023/02/02/eu-platform-worker-directi...

Larger voting blocs want it. Finland has a small presence in Euparl. So even if it is not the mandatory law yet, what they said is true - Europe has been incrementally classifying gig workers as employees and it is soon about to make it mandatory.

throwaway569604• 3 years ago

No. I live at the borders of 3 EU states (PL, CZ, SK) where in each the drivers/couriers are contractors (self-employed).

throwawaylinux• 3 years ago

Is healthcare in employment contracts actually standard in Europe?

throwaway569604• 3 years ago

Healthcare is completely separate from your employment in EU. It's your personal thing to sort out your health insurance, you just notify your employer when you make a change of insurer (because the employer is sending them your money).

In some states there's a national insurance plan, in some you have a tax-funded healthcare, and in some you have mandatory health insurance (with private insurers, based on your income, 15-30%).

sourcecodeplz2• 3 years ago

Ok, it's not the same for all. Should it be?

TulliusCicero• 3 years ago

Gig workers aren't quite contractors and aren't quite employees. Maybe need a third class of worker.

xyst• 3 years ago

“Hustler” economy

nxm• 3 years ago

Better than unemployed all together

chii• 3 years ago

But what properties and laws would apply to this class of worker?

kwhitefoot2• 3 years ago

The general rule in Europe is that "If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then we treat it like a duck." That is employment and tax authorities don't care what your and your employer call yourselves but they do care about the conditions under which you work. In the UK, for instance, if you are a contractor you can send someone else in your stead to do the work, if you are an employee you obviously can't. So that alone can distinguish between real contractors and actual employees.

I'm not a lawyer so take all this with the necessary quantities of salt.

netheril96• 3 years ago

A separate set of dedicated laws of course.

LatteLazy• 3 years ago

Yeah, but we can't possibly add a third category, we have to try and force everyone into one of 2 groups created in the 50s...

iLoveOncall4• 3 years ago

Paid per hour, free to chose their working hours, free to work for multiple employers at the same time, etc. How are they not contractors?

They're way more contractors than the contractors that were working 9 to 5, 5 days a week, for years, for my FAANG.

joker99• 3 years ago

But the fee/payment is dictated by the company which takes away a significant part of autonomy I guess

throwawayiddqd• 3 years ago

I do not think they can choose their working hours, their income does not allow this freedom. Not US, but I did some study on Ukraine immigrants in Poland, etc, they work as self-employed at factories, like LG and Samsung and even make some parts for Porsche cars. A luxury made by slavery, 12 h/day, 6 days a week and minimum hour rate.

nunez3• 3 years ago

they can't set their rates.

that's a huge part of being a contractor.

jawns• 3 years ago

None of them work for multiple employers at the same time.

They are working multiple part-time jobs with shorter-than-customary on-the-clock times, but if they pick up a Lyft passenger, they're only being paid by Lyft for that time, and if they pick up an Uber passenger, they're only being paid by Uber for that time. There's no double-dipping.

The only difference between this arrangement and typical part-time jobs is that with typical PT work, we often think of shifts being measured in hours, whereas with these jobs, shifts are measured in minutes.

As for being able to choose their working hours, it sounds nice in the abstract, but the platforms actively punish drivers whose availability is limited.

IshKebab• 3 years ago

Yeah people have real difficulty dealing with things that don't fit neatly into existing categories. I imagine when smartphones were first introduced people had debates about whether they were phones or computers.

itisit• 3 years ago

Speaking for the rest of humanity: no, we did not have debates as to whether smartphones are phones or computers.

nunez3• 3 years ago

the closest analog i can think of are paid volunteers like people who take usability studies.

they have the flexibility of contractors (they can show up, work as much or as little as they want, and stop whenever they want) but their compensation is set by whomever requisitioned them.

stonogo3• 3 years ago

That's still contract work, it's just shitty contract work. Do you think day laborers get to set their own rates? There is absolutely nothing unique about these operations in the US, except they have the sheen of SV exceptionalism.

bell-cot• 3 years ago

Daydream: "In an unrelated move, the Governor of California announced that, in order to reinforce the independence of the Judiciary - 'one of the sacred foundation stones of our democracy' - all Judges in California would henceforth be reclassified as contractors. Governor Newsom admitted that there would be some short-term administrative costs in making this change, but insisted that the longer-term cost savings would more than make up for..."

user39393823• 3 years ago

Our government, and large swaths of the media, is owned by banks and corporations. The vestiges of the pre-industrial democracy we had persist as a sham to keep the electorate’s consent for and compliance with this system.

Uber and Lyft are not people and shouldn’t have been permitted to spend $1 on this campaign nor towards the campaign of any politician.

Unfortunately it won’t be until bread is $30/loaf that the public will wake up to what’s going on.

marcinzm3• 3 years ago

pre-industrial democracy

You have a very rose tinted view of how democracy was in the past or who actually made decisions.

user39393823• 3 years ago

It wasn't perfect but it existed. Calling it rose-colored is to downplay how bad it's gotten. The complex of multinational corporations and their lobby groups that run our government today didn't exist then, the e.g. railroad companies are no comparison.

Sammi• 3 years ago

The democratic situation was wayyy better than it is now.

You did not refute the original point. You've only managed to muddy the discussion with irrelevance and noise.

fallingknife4• 3 years ago

They should have the right to put their proposal to a vote and make their case, and the did, and they won. This was a democratic vote by the citizens of California. And if it were a democratic vote by the Uber drivers, it also would have won.

josho5• 3 years ago

I think you missed the point. Companies are not citizens therefore, op argued, as non citizens they should not have a voice in election outcomes. It’s a fair point, as a comparison we don’t allow visa holders to vote.

I also suspect the citizens were influenced in their opinions by all the money spent to ‘educate’ the electorate. Somehow it feels wrong to allow a corporation to pay to set school curriculums, but when it comes to corporations paying to set policy that’s entirely ok.

JumpCrisscross2• 3 years ago

Uber and Lyft are not people and shouldn’t have been permitted to spend $1 on this campaign nor towards the campaign of any politician

The arrogance of California's elite this topic exposed is breathtaking. The only way for the other side to have won is because they were brainwashed. The only legitimate vote, or survey among those whose lives we're debating, is the one that sides with the enlightened minority.

BurningFrog3• 3 years ago

Uber and Lyft are groups of people.

rcMgD2BwE72F• 3 years ago

The US Army is a group of people, too.

ChicagoDave• 3 years ago

Everyone seems to forget or disregard the fact that these lawsuits are paid for by the taxi industry. Even when they dig up a few Uber drivers, it’s all a sham.

70% of surveyed rideshare drivers prefer to be independent contractors. If there was a serious majority for employment, Uber and Lyft simply wouldn’t exist.

mdorazio• 3 years ago

Surveyed by whom and how was the question asked?

kcatskcolbdi• 3 years ago

I can't vouch for the validity of the statistic you mention, as you didn't source it.

However, I can provide with 100% certainty that I would prefer being paid 1 trillion dollars an hour instead of my current wage. In fact, I would prefer being paid every dollar amount between my current wage and 1 trillion dollars an hour.

Labor preference does not dictate market conditions. Labor preference has an especially low impact in circumstances where the compensation is low and competition for good paying jobs is fierce. It is wrong to state that if a serious majority of ride-share drivers wanted employment Uber and Lyft wouldn't exist.

hellojesus2• 3 years ago

I think the GP is stating that market dynamics would dictate that someone working as a 1099 for ride share that also had a preference for w2 status would simply find a different, w2 job instead of continuing to work SS a 1099. And I agree with that statement.

mydriasis2• 3 years ago

What does this mean for the average Uber or Lyft driver? How does their quality of life or employment change as a result, generally? I'm not well-acquainted with this kind of stuff.

throwawaymaths• 3 years ago

Used to be a Lyft driver:. By changing status, it would be possible for Lyft/Uber to restrict drivers from being on the other platform simultaneously. This means probably a takehome drop of 20~30%.

The truly egregious one though is FedEx/Amazon drivers, who (IIRC) are "contractors" and forced to use branded vehicles, wear uniforms, and have their driving monitored like crazy. They are definitely employees, and are ruining it for Lyft drivers.

mydriasis2• 3 years ago

Yuck, that all sounds terrible!

ar9av• 3 years ago

But their pay directly scales with the amount being charged to the customer. Let's say that I am a driver classified as an employee. I give a one hour ride at 8PM and the customer is charged $100 - I will make my hourly wage (let's say $18). Now, let's say I give that same ride at 8AM during rush hour. Uber surge is 3x and the customer is charged $300 - I still make $18 for that trip.

Uber and Lyft drivers now pay a percentage back to the platform but their profit or loss is directly tied to customer payment amounts.

bena• 3 years ago

Now let's say that the pay structure isn't a flat dollars for hours.

It's entirely possible to have a base of $18/hr with a commission based on the value of the ride once it's over a certain amount. Lots of places do similar things.

BurningFrog3• 3 years ago

The reality is that gig workers fit in neither of the legacy regulatory categories ("employee" or "contractor").

I expect we'll spend a few destructive decades thrashing around before legal systems have adapted to this invention.

jedberg• 3 years ago

This right here is the key that is missing. We need a new category of worker that's 1/2 way between, OR we need to have universal healthcare and a better social safety net. The main argument here is if the company has to provide benefits, sick leave, etc.

If benefits were provided for everyone by default, it wouldn't matter.

tadfisher• 3 years ago

Here's an idea: outlaw employer-provided health plans.

chrisbolt• 3 years ago

If they’re not an employee, how are they not a contractor? What third thing is missing?

stonogo3• 3 years ago

Contractors with an app

BurningFrog3• 3 years ago

Probably the biggest novelty is that they work whenever they want.

A gig worker can work 0 or 80 hours a week, and not ask for permission either way.

stonogo3• 3 years ago

Day labor existed long before Uber. There's no functional difference except the hiring agency pays by the job instead of by the day.

xwdv• 3 years ago

Good for the drivers, good for the customers, good for Uber, bad for the heavily entrenched taxi industries.

mrguyorama3• 3 years ago

Ah yes, clearly the very local and independent (from each other) taxi companies were the big evil corporations instead of (checks notes) the giant multinational funded by literal blood money from oil barons that openly flouted laws and had an internal team dedicated to writing systems to mislead law enforcement.

singeezie• 3 years ago

My brother and I are both Uber drivers. and i am totaling fighting him at the dinner table cuz….

for me, being contractor brings me so much needed things likeflexible hours and able to get surge extra pay, and write off things, so just no other way.

But brother really wanted full time hours w/ health insurance and most importantly if injured or let go, he gets compensation and unemployment. TO EaCH his own!!!

Jochim2• 3 years ago

Maybe it's different where you are but I'm not aware of any restrictions on the flexibility of working hours or pay when you're classified as an employee.

The substantial difference is you'd accrue holiday pay pro-rata and be able to take statutory sick leave.

throwaway569604• 3 years ago

Employees in Europe have to have fixed amount of hours in predictable schedule. There's no way it could be the same. It definitely would outclass many workers who would like to earn side income.

US court rules Uber and Lyft workers are contractors

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