Apple gets $19M fine in Brazil for not selling iPhones with charger

https://www.engadget.com/apple-19-million-fine-brazil-for-not-selling-phones-with-a-charger-051025019.html

by bubblehack3r • 4 years ago

138 173 4 years ago

cardosof• 4 years ago

In Brazil, what other companies are doing is this: you buy the phone, you get the charger as a gift. It doesn't need to be in the same package, and sometimes it arrives by mail days after - as long as consumers get the charger, no one complains.

neogodless• 4 years ago

Yeah - I am coming around to the idea that chargers don't need to be included with the phone, but also you should be able to get it with the phone if you happen to need it. It should be an option you can pick whenever you buy the phone.

There are definitely situations now where I really don't need a new charger when I buy a device, so if I can just pick the "no charger" option, I will. But most likely - we won't get the choice. Because it costs more to Apple and other corporations.

I was a bit surprised that my S21 charged super slowly on my OnePlus 30W charger, so I had to buy a Samsung 25W charger. (There are others that work, but they were all roughly the same price as the official one.)

samatman6• 4 years ago

This is how it works. This is exactly how it works.

Behold: https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MHJA3AM/A/20w-usb-c-power...

Nineteen bucks, won't catch fire, gives a real 20W.

Now, it might be the case that you feel the price should be zero bucks with purchase of an iPhone.

Apple disagrees. They don't run promotions of that sort, or promotions, in fact. The price is the price, it's core to the brand.

Same with a case, same with headphones. Need a USB-A cable for charging instead of -C? You can buy that as well.

I'd make a snarky comment about expecting everyone else to pay for your free charger when we don't need one, but profit doesn't actually work that way.

Other entities sell iPhones, in fact, I believe that Apple only sells a minority of phones directly. Those merchants are welcome to toss in a charger, if that's the kind of thing the customer likes.

JKCalhoun• 4 years ago

I agree. I personally have too many chargers around the house and would happily pass on another.

_odey3• 4 years ago

My belief is this is an issue because iphones have a unique type of charging port. Maybe if they were USBc then nobody would have cared, or they would have been encouraged not to bundle it in, as most people probaby already have a USBc cable and charger. Looking forward to when the EU will force them to switch.

cassianoleal3• 4 years ago

The cable is included.

_odey3• 4 years ago

Is it iphone specific at both ends? Or is it USBc to iphone?

If the latter then I really don't see why it would be a problem.

tonetheman• 4 years ago

The fine seems a little crazy to me but maybe that is how you motivate a large company.

It is silly that you can buy a device and not be given a way to charge it in the box. And Apple seemingly randomly changes charging ports regularly. In a normal world customer outcry would have forced this issue.

But it is Apple and they care not a whit for their customers.

JustSomeNobody3• 4 years ago

And Apple seemingly randomly changes charging ports regularly.

They what now?

Lightning has been a thing for quite a while.

xbar• 4 years ago

Right. There have been exactly two ports in the history of iPhone.

cassianoleal3• 4 years ago

In fact, for longer than USB-C.

ifqwz• 4 years ago

I have noticed that those who complain about apple the loudest haven't ever owned or even used anything made by apple.

JustSomeNobody3• 4 years ago

So, raise the price by $20 and include a "free" charger with every order.

rodrigodlu• 4 years ago

So they will shoot in their own foot.

There's already an Apple extra margin here over the US retail price.

A USD 1000 Dell notebook here is about BRL ~9000 with all taxes. A USD 1000 Apple MacBook is BRL ~20000.

So there's something they charge extra above the well known govt taxes.

That's why no one will say sorry to Apple.

netsharc• 4 years ago

It would've been helpful to tell everyone 9000 BRL is about 1705 USD, since they probably don't know the conversion rate off the top of their heads...

and 20000 BRL is 3788.84 USD.

DarthNebo• 4 years ago

I guess Apple just needs to put a sticker saying this is replacement phone or no charger on the front of the packaging coz this is clearly the case of an idiotic local regulator not of customers being idiots

hu32• 4 years ago

I fail to see how writing "we still don't ship chargers" on the front will convince the same judges that just fined Apple.

It didn't work in Europe. What makes you think it will work elsewhere?

hezag• 4 years ago

  > "[...] The company cited environmental concerns for removing chargers with every purchase of the device and claimed that the decision will save 861,000 tons of copper, zinc and tin. The Brazilian Ministry of Justice remained unmoved by that reasoning, telling Apple that it could help the environment in other ways, such as giving its devices USB-C support."

Fair enough.

cruano• 4 years ago

Someone should tell him that NOT firing the heads of the environmental agencies [1] of his country could make way more impact than iPhones having USB C

https://news.mongabay.com/2019/06/brazil-guts-environmental-...

soneca• 4 years ago

Well, he is a judge, he can’t tell the president how to do his job. It doesn’t seem a good excuse to interfere in his judgement either way too.

kramerger• 4 years ago

Yeah, that's hard to argue with assuming the fine does not include Apple devices that already use USB-C.

madeofpalk3• 4 years ago

Presumably switching to a different cable would generate a one-off 'landfill event' as people throw out their old cables and buy new ones?

Not saying Apple shouldn't make the move switch (and it's seemed likely for a while that it'll happen next year)

datadata2• 4 years ago

That seems high a really high amount of claimed saved metals. 2.2 billion iPhones have been sold ever globally, that is nearly one pound of metal per phone. I think these chargers weigh around 5oz, and that is not entirely metal.

But here we are only talking about Brazil. Maybe if they project 1000 of years of future sales the figure would make sense? It is also unreasonable to assume every charger is wasted. Some would be used or recycled.

ericmay2• 4 years ago

Yea I guess clarification here would be good but the final product probably takes more metal to make than what is in it to start with.

I don't buy the judge's argument about USB-C because the cable that comes with the phone has USB-C on the end that goes to a charging block so there aren't really any compatibility issues. Unless of course that judge was suggesting that Apple shouldn't include a power cable as well using a similar argument for not including the charging block being that "there are plenty around".

masklinn5• 4 years ago

Is it? Most if not all phone chargers have detachable cables these days, so shouldn't Apple only need to bundle (or provide with any purchase) an A->Lightning or C->lightning cable?

rootusrootus4• 4 years ago

And they do exactly that right now (include a C->Lightning cable).

pwinnski3• 4 years ago

They supply a USB-C->Lightning cable, but nothing into which to plug the USB-C end of things.

dont__panic• 4 years ago

19 million dollars sounds like a lot of money to me, but it's minuscule to a company the size of Apple.

861,000 tons of copper, zinc, and tin sounds like a lot of metal to me. Is it minuscule at Apple's manufacturing scale?

Finnucane• 4 years ago

For comparison, annual production of copper in Brazil is ~~250,000 tons. So it's Brazil's economic interest that that copper gets mined and used.

deelowe2• 4 years ago

All new iphones already come with a usb-c to lightening cable...

stemlord• 4 years ago

They mean usb c port in the phone itself, so consumers could use virtually any usb-c cable to charge relatively safely rather than overpriced proprietary apple lightning cables or bootlegs

ratww3• 4 years ago

Funnyly enough Apple's Brazilian PR team completely fumbled their response to the Ministry of Justice:

Existem bilhões de adaptadores de energia USB-A já em uso em todo o mundo que nossos clientes podem usar para carregar e conectar seus dispositivos. [1]
Translation: There are billions of USB-A power adapters already in use around the world that our customers can use to charge and connect their devices

Those "billions of USB-A adapters" however won't work with the cable provided in newer iPhones, which is lightning and USB-C.

[1] https://g1.globo.com/tecnologia/noticia/2022/09/06/ministeri...

pixelpoet• 4 years ago

Oh no, 19 million dollars, whatever will they do...

They could very easily just ignore this as a cost of doing business.

hu32• 4 years ago

I wouldn't fool around. Judges don't take repeat offenders lightly.

They both know it's a symbolic amount for now.

marcosdumay4• 4 years ago

It's not really symbolic. It's reparative instead of punitive.

Repeated offenders get punitive fines added to the mix.

reustle• 4 years ago

My rough math tells me they made $19,162,000 per hour in profit during 2021.

myth20184• 4 years ago

In fact, the fine would need to be way higher in order to perform any serious "educational" effect over Apple.

However, in Brazil this sort of fine has upper limits established by the consumers protection law -- the fine must be based on losses caused to customers; it can't be proportional to revenue or profits.

vxNsr• 4 years ago

If that’s the case then it’s exactly the right amount, any money apple saves by not including the charger is lost. If that money actually makes it into the hands of the iPhone buyers is another story.

speeder2• 4 years ago

Brazillian here, after reading comments I think a lot of people don't get what is happening.

1. The lawsuit started when Apple dropped the chargers coming with the phone, but had just changed the cable connection, so you would need a new charger anyway.

2. Apple chargers often have ludicrous prices in Brazil.

3. Apple products in Brazil are in general expensive, people do not replace their iPhones every generation, it wouldn't be a stretch to guess that almost all iPhone purchases are first time purchases, or people replacing really old phones, thus as a rule, they don't have the appropriate charger.

4. If Apple doesn't give the charger, or sell it really cheap, Brazillians WILL use chinese knockoffs that set themselves on fire, it is just the reality in the country where all tech is crazy expensive.

wisnoskij3• 4 years ago

Number 4 is what I dont get. Countries should not bother with fining Apple pennies, they should just make it clear that they are liable for the deaths and loss of property caused by their actions.

fortran77• 4 years ago

It's Apple's fault if people use knock-off chargers? (And you can't even argue that Apple wants that...)

jiggywiggy2• 4 years ago

Apple chargers prices are ludicrous everywhere.

dreamcompiler• 4 years ago

They're also very high quality when compared to cheap Chinese chargers that can electrocute the user, catch fire, or only produce a small fraction of their rated power safely. Are they overpriced when you factor that in?

kodah3• 4 years ago

Is a man guilty of a crime if he knowingly lets another man climb a cell tower without a safety harness?

Yes, manslaughter.

The question is if Apple knew this was a problem and the degree to which they knew and made excuses or marketing for it.

masklinn5• 4 years ago

1. The lawsuit started when Apple dropped the chargers coming with the phone, but had just changed the cable connection, so you would need a new charger anyway.

That makes no sense, Lightning was introduced in 2012. And the older Dock Connector chargers had detachable USB cables (I don't remember Apple ever using bonded chargers), so you could have used your existing charger with a new cable.

And an other commenter reports that the judge commented:

telling Apple that it could help the environment in other ways, such as giving its devices USB-C support.

But Lightning predates USB-C by 2 years. There was no USB-C to switch to when Apple introduced Lightning.

And I can understand and emphasise with immediately switching over from and obsoleting all the "brand new" Lighting-based docks & co.

Apple has started the switch with a few ipads (and obviously all the macs), and I've been expecting the deprecation of Lightning this year or the next, as it's been a decade, which is about how long the Dock Connector existed before the introduction of Lightning (though it survived Lightning for a few years in older devices and developing countries, IIRC Apple stopped selling the last dock connector device around 2015).

4. If Apple doesn't give the charger, or sell it really cheap, Brazillians WILL use chinese knockoffs that set themselves on fire, it is just the reality in the country where all tech is crazy expensive.

But how is that Apple's responsibility? And surely they'll do that either way so they can have multiple chargers?

speeder2• 4 years ago

If I remember correctly (I don't own an iPhone so to me this is kind all hearsay) what happened is Apple stopped shipping charges around the time chargers became USB-C, while their older ones used USB-A on the brick.

So the iPhone package would come with the phone itself, and a USBC-lightning cable, but the USB-C brick wasn't included and was ludicrously expensive, and nobody had one since it was new.

zekrioca4• 4 years ago

I understand you based your answer on OP's comment, but you should not assume everyone has a charger that is compatible with the newer iPhones. And the prices are totally different as well.

There is a regulation in Brazil that determines newly purchased products should come with any components essential to the use of such (expensive, i.e., $1450+ in Brazil) products. In the case of iPhone, this means coming with a charger. Just like you, Apple assumed everyone in Brazil would have an Apple compliant charger sitting around, but the regulation exists exactly to avoid it.

I can see them using to constraint their warranty, so when a problem happens to the phone they would have an excuse not to fix it: "oh, we see here you haven't been using a compliant charger. Warranty voided."

sfvegandude• 4 years ago

But how is that Apple's responsibility?

"Apple's responsibility" is determined, in countries with consumer protection laws, by that country's authority. In this case, it's Apple responsibility because Brazil says it's good for their consumers. It does stand to reason that having more high quality chargers from Apple is better than having fewer.

cyc116• 4 years ago

Had no one noticed the racism in this person's comment?

amelius• 4 years ago

I see only nationalities mentioned in that comment, not races.

dathinab2• 4 years ago

so basically:

- it wouldn't be a problem if Apple did use USB-C, because "good enough" USB-C chargers are "everywhere" (e.g. come with your laptop, tablet, previous phone, etc.). And aren't too expensive either.

galad872• 4 years ago

Apple already bundles a USB-C to Lighting cable with the iPhones, so every USB-C charger is already good enough.

major505• 4 years ago

USB-C is just now starting to be popular in Brasil. Most notebooks here use proprietary chargers.

USB-C notebooks are still very expensive here. I just brought a new Dell Inspiron. IT have greate specs but still uses the old dell charger.

conductr6• 4 years ago

Would a toy manufacturer be sued in Brazil for selling toys without batteries? “Batteries not included” is such a common marketing phrase it was used as a major movie title… in 1987.

What if they required some “expensive” proprietary battery that was sold separately? (Power tools do this in the US)

For me, I don’t know anything about Brazil, but this lawsuit only makes sense if they misled the public into believing there would be a cable included. Likely, it was very clear about was actually included and people just didn’t read it or care enough (already deciding they’d buy a knock-off). I remember this moment in time and it was pretty well known in the US from my recollection. Even my non-tech friends knew about it and were kind of upset that it would cost them more and all their existing cables and accessories would be obsolete.

felipelemos• 4 years ago

Let me fix that for you: > Would a toy manufacturer be sued in Brazil for selling toys without a charging cable?

The answer is: Yes.

kodah3• 4 years ago

I own a number of power tools, I've never seen one come without a necessary component for basic operation. Maybe you can link to some brands that bare costs similar to an iPhone that are sold without basic components.

The problem is that you can't compare the US to other countries in this way. The salaries and what people take home are drastically different. Even inside the US, if anyone bothered to look, you'd probably find that most US citizens outside of wealthy areas give something up to get the next iPhone. Adding the charger on top of that likely has impact, just less so than a place like Brazil.

zekrioca4• 4 years ago

Exactly because you do not know anything that you should refrain from basing your opinions by using only your own context of living.

marcosdumay4• 4 years ago

What if they required some “expensive” proprietary battery that was sold separately?

Yes, in that case they would be sued.

not_brazilian• 4 years ago

Brazillians WILL use chinese knockoffs that set themselves on fire, it is just the reality in the country where all tech is crazy expensive.

It would be a pretty interesting law: Supposing it were wealthy enough, what if the government gave everyone an iPhone?

It could have so many positive effects.

sircastor• 4 years ago

We have a Brazilian Au Pair, who told me that she was waiting until she came up here to the states to buy a new phone. I thought that getting a new iPhone in Brazil might be more affordable. Turns out I was wrong. The iPhone list price was somewhere around 180% as in the US. I was shocked.

charlie0• 4 years ago

This is true in various countries. Relatives have asked me to buy electronics in the US when traveling to see them because of high import taxes.

gregschlom• 4 years ago

Yes, Brazil has very high import duties on all electronics. Maybe they were hoping to promote local production, like what happened with the auto industry in the 50s and 60s there where major car manufacturers opened production plants in Brazil.

It did work out to some extent in the 80s, with TV manufacturers moving to the Free Trade Zone of Manaus but didn't translate with the high tech stuff afterwards

et-al• 4 years ago

I'd wager to say that worldwide, America is still the cheapest place to buy a new iPhone.

lotsofpulp2• 4 years ago

Apple products in Brazil are in general expensive, people do not replace their iPhones every generation

“People” everywhere else do not replace their iPhones every generation either.

zekrioca4• 4 years ago

What about all these Ads on YT from ATT/T-Mobile/etc. offering to update our phones "for free"? You may not do it, but many more do.

cmer• 4 years ago

This seems like an easy problem to solve for Apple.

Just sell the iPhone for $30 more, and give people the option to not buy a charger with their phone for a $30 discount. Adds up to the same thing, but instead of paying extra for the charger, you get a discount if you don't take it in the name of "saving the environment".

lbebber• 4 years ago

Yes, that’s part of the intention of the law in fact, so that a company can’t advertise a lower price than the consumer would actually pay.

arb-spreads• 4 years ago

Or just offer an option between a charging cable/brick, iCloud credit, or store credit for future purchase...

jacknews• 4 years ago

What the? Totally backwards.

Surely any lawsuit should be that you were compelled to pay a higher price because a charger was bundled with the phone, when you only wanted the phone - maybe because you already have a charger, or wanted to use a third-party one.

osigurdson2• 4 years ago

Most people already have chargers. They generally have a long lifespan. Why couple them with products that have a shorter lifespan?

ajross• 4 years ago

Most tech people have chargers. Most everyone here is probably drowning in them. Not getting a new piece of garbage with every device seems like a feature to us.

But we aren't "most people". Surely there's a middle ground here.

And I have to say it, but one piece of the solution needs to be "Apple stops selling junk with proprietary connectors". The space of people who have an extra USB-C charger is MUCH larger than folks who have an extra lightning brick. I've stopped carrying extra bricks around when travelling with the family because the laptop charger does quadruple duty on all the devices.

osigurdson2• 4 years ago

> Apple stops selling junk with proprietary connectors

I totally agree. Lightning was needed before USB-C existed but now it needs to go.

> who have an extra lightning brick

I've actually never seen a lightning charging brick. Every Apple charger that I have is USB (C or the original/basic A type). Perhaps this is different in other countries.

dividedbyzero• 4 years ago

Apple phones come with USB-C to lightning cables. There are no lightning bricks that I'm aware of. I sometimes charge my iPhone on my Anker laptop charger with the cable that came with the phone.

matwood2• 4 years ago

There's no such thing as a 'lightning brick'. Apple used to include a usb-a to lightning cable with their phones (and sometimes a usb-a power brick). All iPhones sold from Apple today come with a usb-c to lightning cable, thus already satisfying the use case you present.

nik736• 4 years ago

Why are tech products so expensive in Brazil? Are they taxed heavily?

htaunay• 4 years ago

Yes, in theory around 40% -> 50%, with it fluctuating over time.

However in practice imported electronics tend to cost up to about 100% then their original price abroad for several reasons, usually but not exclusively related to difficulties in 3rd world countries e.g. bribes necessary to get the shipment, insurance over shipment theft, margin risk due to volatile forex, etc

For example, atm an iPhone 14 costs 800 USD in the US Apple Store and 7600 Brazilian Reais in the Brazilian one. With the current exchange rate at ~5.20, that's around 80% more. Not that bad actually, that ratio has been worse in the past.

myth20184• 4 years ago

e.g. bribes necessary to get the shipment, insurance over shipment theft, margin risk due to volatile forex, etc

Sorry but this is one of the many plain lies companies tell in order to justify their overpriced products.

scrose• 4 years ago

It’s not just tech, that’s just the most obvious to us here. Anything that’s good quality that needs to be imported is usually almost twice the price there. I saw this especially with climbing equipment

danrocks• 4 years ago

Weak currency plus up to 78% importing tax on some types of products. When I worked at <big hardware company> in Brazil, our math was to multiply the user price in USD by 3.7x to establish the price in BRL.

iPhone: $800 iPhone in Brazil: $3000

Now with the currency in the toilet and companies "manufacturing" in Brazil (basically just assembling ready-made kits shipped from China) the multiplier is no longer valid, but still, an iPhone 14 basic model is $1461.

For purchase parity calculations: $1461 is about 7 minimum wages in BRL. If that held for the US, an iPhone here would cost some $7500.

Harsh.

When the currency was strong, it was even worse. When I moved back to BR in 2011, BRLUSD was something like 0.9 (strong BRL), and a VW Jetta cost around USD 45000.

Harsh.

myth20184• 4 years ago

There's a number of factors, but I'd say the most important ones are:

1. taxes, although it varies. Imported consumer electronics are taxed more heavily. However, there are regions with fiscal incentives for companies to install their factories here. Products manufactured in such regions are not as nearly expensive;

2. an excess of credit offered by banks. This created an extremely pernicious cultural habit: people don't evaluate the product's price, but the loan's installment size -- regardless of how expensive is the product, the interest paid to the bank, the number of installments etc.

3. there's a fetish for fancy and expensive stuff, they bring social status, and people are idiot enough to accept the prices -- and, with the aforementioned excess of credit, no lack of money can prevent them from shooting their own heads.

These are essentially the same reasons why cars are also so expensive here. Manufacturers say it's because taxes, and ~ 100% of customers buy this bullshit, but this has already been proved wrong a number of times. For any brazilians doubting it, I invite you guys to:

1. look up any article comparing prices of Brazilian-manufactured cars sold locally vs their prices when exported to Mexico. The difference on taxes don't explain the end prices, and the manufacturers and ANFAVEA never provided an explanation for that

2. a statement from Toyota's CEO when visiting Brazil, probably unaware of local idiosyncrasies and the fib told by manufacturers, including themselves: "why should we charge less for our cars if they are paying?"; and then he tried to fix it with a "the prices we charge in Brazil are the fair ones, it's the rest of the world that forces us to charge too little."

3. Nintendo closing its factory due to "an excess of taxes and bureaucracy" while Sony and Microsoft local factories were doing pretty well in the very same market

4. The small credit crisis from 2011 that made car prices to drop extremely sharply within 1 month or so

myth20184• 4 years ago

Ah, and I forgot to mention:

In 2011, when JAC Motors started to sell cars for cheaper, you saw what happened: government raised taxes over imported cars (maybe a result of a lobby from the other manufacturers?)

That's what happens when 1 manufacturer decides to sell cars for a fair price here.

brazed_blotch• 4 years ago

As if a Brazilian court cares about consumer protection. I wouldn't be surprised if the courts are _happy_ Apple are still not shipping iPhones with the charger, now they don't have to invent another reason to fine Apple to "protect consumers". €19M is peanuts for Apple, this is obviously not going to change their behaviour.

That fine is sure going to line a few bureaucrats' pockets though!

benniomars• 4 years ago

I would like to get a fuel pump with my next car purchase.

theodric• 4 years ago

I'm sure Apple cares deeply about nineteen million dollars

htk• 4 years ago

Many people think this is Apple now having to give a charger with a new iPhone, when in fact now the customer has to buy a charger when purchasing an iPhone.

SpelingBeeChamp• 4 years ago

Are they fining Tesla as well?

Apple gets $19M fine in Brazil for not selling iPhones with charger

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