The WFH Folks

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32720171

by syed_h5 • 4 years ago

49 97 4 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

Have you all noticed a lack of social connection ever since work from home took off? Don't get me wrong, I love working from home. But when starting at a new company, it is hard to get to know your co-workers and fit into the company.

There are tons of studies showing how social connection was a driver for better morale and performance (since new people settled in faster).

Would the ideal situation be where we can be WFH and still create the meaningful social connections with our co-workers?

We are working on something like that. But wanted to see if others felt the same issue.

sp332• 4 years ago

Yup. I was never really good at striking up conversation in an office either TBH, but at least I could overhear and maybe jump into something in progress. I realize there's some kind of skill I'm missing, but now I just don't talk to coworkers very often.

syed_h522• 4 years ago

Do you think it would help if you already knew topics that would spark a conversation between you and your co-workers instantly?

Can you check out what we are making to solve this at www.getparallel.io ? I feel like it would have worked really well for you. Would love to know your thoughts.

protonbob• 4 years ago

I agree. I have worked on compensating by engaging more in other social settings like the gym and church.

mtpockets5• 4 years ago

Feel you 100. When I was a startup founder, I tried holing myself in my apt for a week thinking I would be productive. By day 3 I noticed I was not as sharp and mentally wandering. So I went to get a coffee and the exchange with the cashier boosted my endorphins.

And I reflected on that experience a decade ago realizing I put myself into solitary confinement - a prison punishment - and covid did that to billions of people who didn’t realize that social interaction is at the center of what gives us energy. So I deeply empathize.

PerryCox• 4 years ago

Honestly I don't have any issues with this. Most of my team is in Europe and I'm in America so even before COVID and WFH became the norm, I was still talking to people via Slack, Teams, etc.

I think the best advice I can give is to reach out to people and have normal conversations when you don't need anything. If you only talk to people when you need something from them, they are going to be less likely to talk about things that they have going on outside of work. Talk about anything that they are interested in. Plus the beauty of messaging apps is that people can respond when they have time and if they are busy they can ignore the messages.

Also if you get some downtime in meetings or join early, ask how things are going, what the weather is like, or if they have any weekend plans. There usually is a bit of time before or after meetings where you can still socialize.

ngc248• 4 years ago

Exactly. I actually call up people when there is downtime and shoot the breeze. We talk about ideas, office politics, anything under the sun. So even though we are all WFHing I was able to bond with my new team this way.

syed_h522• 4 years ago

Hypothetically, do you think it would be nice if you found out common things you shared with you co-workers right from the start? For example not going 5+ months not knowing that they support the same soccer team that you do. That is 5 months worth of convo that could have happened from the start.

It seems that you are pretty social and take extra steps to build the connections. So, wondering if it would be easier for you to not have to do the leg work and be able to get into the main things you and your co-worker can talk about for hours.

amir734jj• 4 years ago

Yes. But I didn't like working in the office and I am introvert. I dislike taking public transportation to work. They were always late. On the other hand, I work late night talking to India teams. Overall, I enjoy working from home and the freedom that comes with it.

tus666• 4 years ago

Thats why I like the 2/3 split. No commute on Mon/Fri, but still get the social interaction mid week.

syed_h522• 4 years ago

Hybrid envs are nice for sure. But overall people still need time to build those relationships. especially if they are new.

Since you work at a hybrid env, would you mind checking us out at www.getparallel.io ? We wrapped up our MVP and our whole thing is to have great social connections no matter the work environment. So your hybrid POV will be helpful.

cassonmars2• 4 years ago

The loss of cognitive overhead of dealing with a physical workspace with distractions abound has to be countered with a new cognitive overhead – putting initiative forward in reaching out to coworkers, setting up regular 1:1s to just chat. While the conversations may initially feel forced (because they are indeed artificial), once camaraderie is built, it feels as natural as an office chat.

sedeki• 4 years ago

Setting up regular 1:1s just to chat sounds good. Though if I were new at a company, I'd feel forced to have a work-related/productive reasons to schedule these meetings...

What do you title these 1:1s so that your coworkers will accept them, and so that your manager won't lift and eyebrow?

kradeelav• 4 years ago

Not the person you're replying to, but as a manager: a manager who dislikes employees reaching out for 1:1's with other coworkers for any reason is a bad one, imo. I encourage my folks to be proactive in learning from other teams and to be adults who don't need hand-holding. As long as they hold up their bargain of a reasonable amount of work done in a time frame, what they do with their time isn't my business.

(caveat that it's for normal water cooler talk and not a top-of-the-iceberg issue of a very big iceberg of issues.)

cassonmars2• 4 years ago

Literally just "Name/Name 1:1" so it's indistinguishable from other 1:1s, but if you're in a remote org and they aren't okay with and encouraging these kinds of recurring meetings, it's probably a toxic environment. They don't dominate a calendar, maybe a grand total of 2.5 hrs a week at most.

molsongolden• 4 years ago

Coffee/tea/donut chats. There are chat apps like Donut but you can also set these up manually. Everybody who is interested joins a chat channel then an admin generates random pairings each week.

throwawaysleep3• 4 years ago

I like that I can just opt out of really knowing my co-workers remotely. No need to ever chat.

closeparen• 4 years ago

Video calls are miserable already, and there are way too many hours of them just to get through necessary work business. Video calls to just chat are a special hell.

syed_h522• 4 years ago

Man, this might be my most favorite comment so far as I am reading through everything.

I love the way you put it. We are trying to do exactly that, build camaraderie from day 1 without the leg work. If I join a new team, instantly knowing who else is a Cricket fan is a sure fire way for me to get close to them and fit into the team faster.

Could you please check out www.getparallel.io ? I would love to get your thoughts on it.

babyshake• 4 years ago

I like the idea of having amazing, company funded offsites on a quarterly basis, and informal events such as company funded happy hours and dinners. I don't really miss the feeling of being next to other people working at a computer while I am working at a computer. Being in a conference room is alright, although I think a lot of us appreciate the ability to multi-task a little bit better while doing remote team meetings.

syed_h522• 4 years ago

Agreed with all that.

Do you think the offsite events would be fun if you already knew people there had similar passions as you? For example, lets say an offsite get scheduled. You see the people on a platform and you see similarities between you and them. For example if your profile has game of thrones, star wars, FIFA, NBA, EVs as something you love, and then before the off site you see a co-workers with some of the same stuff too, would that make the off site better? Because then you could go to the offsite and immediately talk to that person about the game last night, or about FIFA.

mathieuh• 4 years ago

I moved job a couple of months ago. Even though I WFH in general I live very close to the office, so I’ve been going in for half a day per week to have coffee and lunch with my team, then I head home in the early afternoon.

I probably get half as much work done during that morning as I would at home, but I do feel like it’s helped me get settled and feel part of the team much faster. Even that short time each week gives you the opportunity for inside jokes and so on.

Obviously I’m in a lucky position in that it takes me 15 minutes on the bus door-to-door and to be honest I’m not sure I could be bothered going in if it meant a full day. I’m very hesitant to set precedents for being in the office in case WFH gets taken away or nerfed or something. Not that I’ve had any indication that’s on the cards, I just don’t really trust any companies at all, no matter what their “people team” talks about.

Cayde-6• 4 years ago

Treat it like joining a new web forum community back in the earlier days of the internet. Follow and as appropriate participate in the on-topic sections (e.g. project-related slack channels). Lurk a bit in the off-topic sections (e.g. slack #random channel, but also look for others employees may have set up like #cooking) to get the general vibe of the place. Then make an effort to ramp up participation over time to a comfortable and, importantly, consistent level. As much as you're getting to know your coworkers, you want them to get to know and remember you, and all they have to do that is your regular participation.

Make an effort to connect with coworkers in person whenever there's a business or on-site trip. See if the company has any hosted events, holiday parties, or other in-person meetups (and if not, suggest some). If there's any coworkers that live nearby, suggest meeting up for lunch or after-work drinks occasionally.

Beyond that, as others have mentioned, you can seek out local social organizations and clubs, or even just try to interact with your neighbors more.

khedoros1• 4 years ago

Treat it like joining a new web forum community back in the earlier days of the internet.

Heh. My pattern with forums was to join with the intention of taking part, end up making just a couple of comments on a couple of threads (related to why I was interested in the forum in the first place), and then forgetting that I had a login there.

syed_h522• 4 years ago

This is great. You highlighted a path for how to fit into a company in our current culture.

How about all that leg work wasn't needed?

I wanna run a hypothetical scenario by you. Lets say you are a fan of the new Game of Thrones: House of the Dragon fan. There is a platform only within your company that you can see which other coworkers you connect with that are also a fan of this big show. Lets say 8 outta 10 people in your team watches the show. So, meetings become more interesting because now you can talk about this immediately.

Now add tons and tons of other topics that you might have in common with your team. Instead of waiting months and years to find out your co-worker of 2 years also loves Tennis, you can know it now, talk about it now, and socially have a better dynamic now.

What do you think of a platform that already does the legwork for you? To bring the teams closer and connect more people based on what they love.

emptyparadise• 4 years ago

Putting up appearances and wearing masks (metaphorically) is daunting to me, so WFH has been a blessing. Maybe there's just something wrong with me when everyone is shouting that they want to go back and drag me back as well.

rotart• 4 years ago

The lack of any meaningful social connection is a beneficial feature of WFH for me. I've switched companies many times and worked entirely remotely for the last 10 years with a short stint where I was a team lead and the company was WFH adverse. Not having a meaningful social connection to many of my coworkers has allowed me to focus on professional and personal development. When I want to socialize with coworkers I usually maintain texting or messaging relationships with coworkers who valued my work so I am able to keep a professional network in my pocket without ever needing to spend time in environments that are outside my control.

New people settle in faster in on site environments because we adapt to environments especially when we are required to.

The ideal situation requires a lot of effort and probably some desire to side-step professional development (talking about work) to spend time with people you currently work with doing something you enjoy (like playing board games). The ideal situation for me is probably something like being able to easily "coordinate company socials" with "let's play a game over Zoom/Discord". Even better if the Zoom/Discord are not company monitored and the interaction is ephemeral. Few products or services would give up the data collection since morale and performance can be measured in relation to the usage of these products or services.

syed_h522• 4 years ago

So, I enjoyed reading your POV. I agree that having a network of people is important and most of the time that network is created on personal relationship and not just work.

I love WFH. I think our solution actually comes close to your ideal situation. Would you mind checking us out at www.getparallel.io ? We wrapped up our MVP and our whole thing is to have great social connections no matter the work env.

overgard• 4 years ago

Honestly yeah. I used to have a lot of friendships formed in the workplace, but the post pandemic places I've worked, there's certainly coworkers I liked but I can't say I know much about them at all. I don't think zoom socializing works all that great, ie zoom happy hours or whatnot but maybe that's just me.

On the other hand, not having a commute, and not having to fake being busy during down times makes it easier to strengthen outside of work friendships and hobbies.

I also think occasional remote meetups in person can really help. I think it's easier to hold a casual text or zoom conversation if you've interacted in person a bit

bloodyplonker22• 4 years ago

Zoom happy hours feel more like forced social interactions. Similar to daily stand-ups, but they go around asking how your day was and what you did in your day. And you have to share that with everyone on the call instead of the group you normally talk to in person only.

syed_h522• 4 years ago

Yes, exactly. It feels forced because we always talk about things that nobody is interested in talking about that much.

What do you think of a platform that already does the legwork for you? To bring the teams closer and connect more people based on what they love.

syed_h522• 4 years ago

I don't think it is just you. That was a very thoughtful reply. I agree with everything you said. I would never want to give up WFH but had a lot closer friendships back in the day.

Do you think you would be interested in a world where WFH stays. But companies offer a way for you to connect with your co-workers based on your most passionate interests? For example if you love soccer, watching tennis, massive Star Wars fan, love taking cruises, you end up seeing your other co-workers who like the same things. So, you can start conversations based on those interests. Meetings would be more fun when you guys talk about the US Open tennis matches or what cruise was the best etc. While being WFH.

I want to know what you think about something like this.

eyelidlessness• 4 years ago

I’ve WFH almost my whole (>20y) career. I wasn’t around to say how this has affected my current team because it was fully remote before I joined and before the pandemic. My previous team went remote earlyish in the pandemic and at least from my perspective became more social. I personally have been more inclined to be social with my community outside of work, which is something I’ve struggled with in the the past. I’ve also been more inclined to have meaningful social connections with the coworkers I actually enjoy socializing with because I have more choice about the social circumstances. I’m quite happy not to have the artificial social pressure to be working and friends and working and friends and working all the time. To the extent other people do have that desire I hope you’ll design your thing to recognize that some of us very deliberately don’t want to participate and make every bit of it philosophically opt-in and consensual.

zxcvbn4038• 4 years ago

All my coworkers are on other continents, covid didn’t change that, I see no difference in how I interact with them.

Even if they lived in the apartment next to me, maybe I don’t want to hang with them after hours or on the weekend? Maybe I don’t want to talk work outside the office?

If your lonely go find a bar - don’t drag us all back to the workplace!

syed_h522• 4 years ago

No way are we trying to get back to the office. I am a massive WFH fan. Our solution is to enhance the WFH experience. No way is it about going back to the office full time haha

Do you think you would enjoy working with your co-workers virtually more if you had shared interests to talk about? Literally stuff like soccer or a fav show, or a certain EV? It isn't about hanging outside of work. Introverts don't want that. But lets say a guy you have been working with for months-years, also like the same bands as you do. So, boom meetings are more fun and you have something more to talk about rather than the weather every time. Question is, why wait months-years to find out things you already have in common with people you talk with every day?

This isn't about not having friends, or going back to the office at all. This is about making WFH experience better.

kxrm• 4 years ago

I can't speak for everyone but I've been working from home my entire career since 2002. I don't feel like my co-working relationships were any worse than any other co-working experience I had at jobs that required my presence (teen jobs like grocery or video production jobs prior to me getting into software). If anything my WFH relationships were stronger and I still keep in touch with them to this day. Plus I feel that they are more diverse as my co-workers are all over the globe so I feel like I learned more about different cultures than I would have taking an office job.

Additionally if I am bothered by someone or am generally not interested in them, it's far easier to avoid them in a WFH setting. My interactions with them can truly be limited to only whatever it takes to get the job done.

That said, I recognize that working this way isn't for everyone. Some people need to breath the same air to feel a connection with others. I have just never needed that.

wikibob• 4 years ago

Yes. It sucks.

I haven’t found a solution.

zinodaur• 4 years ago

Almost everyone on my team joined after we went full remote - one thing that has helped a lot is 4 hours of "mob" pair programming per week. Basically a time where anyone who has something interesting to talk about, or a problem they are stuck on can share their screen and get input/help from the whole team.

It has really helped getting people comfortable with each other, as well as being a shockingly effective way to solve tricky problems and get new people up to speed.

kevinmchugh• 4 years ago

Why only 4 hours? I'm sure you're working on interesting or hard problems more than 10% of the time

aniforprez• 4 years ago

Personally, I love WFH. It gives me a freedom to work (or not work) as I please and my company is kind enough to simply look at my cleared tickets and not hassle me further. It also gives me a lot of time to do research and continually explore which has led to a lot of career growth for which I'm very grateful

But what I do lament is that it's very difficult to guide and mentor rank newbies. After a certain amount of push, we hired a few kids right out of college to be able to give them guidance. A couple of them flourished and grew but there are stragglers. One in particular has personally given me a lot of grief and I really wish I could meet them in person so I could guide them as my mentors guided me. A lot of the time, text and voice conversations just don't express ideas well enough. I don't think it's wise to deny that we are a species which has learnt to communicate through cues, gestures and other physical contexts and all of this is lost now. Messages that are meant to educate can sound mean and demeaning and I have to constantly think over ways to express concerns and suggestions in a way that won't discourage my mentees. A smile, a shrug and a few words of reassurance and encouragement go a long way. After all, most of us are constantly learning and there's no shame in ignorance as long as you ask the questions

I am quite worried about the silos we've erected for the new folk who need the help to grow. Some of them will manage but I fear that a lot will be left in the dust with little recourse

syed_h522• 4 years ago

Yes, so we thought a lot about new people joining remote companies or even hybrid companies. Like how do these people connect with their team ASAP? The faster they get comfortable the faster they become productive. That is usually hard to do for new folks in remote/hybrid env.

I agree with the silos too. I think we as a world should strive to make work more fun, friendly and honestly less miserable.

I am asking this favor from some of the people here with unique POVs. Would you mind checking us out at www.getparallel.io ? We wrapped up our MVP and our whole thing is to have great social connections no matter the work environment.

pkrotich• 4 years ago

I feel the disconnect at times but WFH has been godsend for me - but I’m extremely introverted.

whywhywhywhy• 4 years ago

How can it ever be meaningful if you're not there, you're just a little head in a window with an audio delay?

You know the unfortunate fact that taller people are paid more, well when you're WFH your height is 2 inches in your little Zoom square.

Not trying to be mean, just being realistic about the vibe I'm sensing from the people big on being back in the office and I think the dominoes are starting to topple.

syed_h522• 4 years ago

So I don't want WFH to ever end. Ever.

My point for our startup is to enhance the WFH experience.

For more context on what we are trying to do, you can check us out here: https://www.getparallel.io/

MVP done while we are still testing the waters.

mtpockets5• 4 years ago

I’m an eng manager at a public company.

Short answer - relationships cannot be made via zoom. Thus, interactions are transaction based. I can provide a million examples of why this is a fact in as simple as online dating where you always want to end up meeting the person and digital correspondence is not sufficient to cross the boundary of trust between 2 humans.

…and trust is the one thing that gets you promoted, gets you the benefit of the doubt when you need to leave the office and inconveniently make your coworkers pickup your slack, provides a social barrier via awkward convo when your manager has to let someone go and is debating who vs the simplicity of 3 clicks to removing even a more productive person with whom they have no relationship with by just removing a person on slack and zoom and your jira board. Do you let go the person you know that has 2 kids and you met their kids and they do ok work vs the solo ic who does not seem to want to talk about anything but their work and go home? Surprise surprise most managers would easily coach the ok person they feel closer to vs even the most productive person who they cant get a read on and assume they may even leave some day. Humans being humans.

Trust also forms camaraderie, your tribe in an office, the people you can gripe to with trust in their silence vs someone can easily record or back talk you with your manager via zoom. In office, you can see where people move and who they talk to and thus their relationships.

Therefore, you cannot solve building better relationships via more technological solutions. Humans grasp many small pieces of meta data via in person contact.

Small companies may want whatever your solution is, but large ones where divisions need to scale and trust needs to scale already know this truth and will not buy into it. They would rather wait for covid to be less fearful amongst their constituents and bring them in office which is already happening at banks and apple and soon to be many other orgs next year.

BUT! For the fully remote small companies where work is distributed amongst maybe 20 people in different geos, maybe some small tools will work.

Just remember, a bunch of startups tried to build products to address this at the start if the pandemic and failed learning this truth that human relationships need in person contact.

And as you solicit more advice, notice how the proponents of wfh typically are in roles that are more transactional in nature or accept the risks of or want a more transactional relationship with their work. Most people, especially young ones without enough background understanding how human orgs work, will think they want wfh but in fact want in office with some flexibility to get their outside work life tasks done more easily. And it is not until peoples heads are on chopping blocks or they are passed up for a promotion that they will realize the mistake of wanting 100% remote work.

throwawaysleep3• 4 years ago

Can't you just haul in the managers then? I don't need or desire anyone's trust. My code gets reviewed, so there is no real need to trust me. Bring in the decision makers and leave the minions like me who just silently spin in chairs during meetings at home.

mtpockets5• 4 years ago

Hah yeah, I can relate when I was IC.

If you have enough leverage to know you don’t need relationships to be safe, to get promoted, to do what you want to do, more power to ya!

I speak of large orgs where not all people and teams can be like that. And unfortunately, large orgs cannot say “team a you stay wfh team b you come in since you need to gel with team c in office” due to fairness. So a one size fits all will be applied like Apple is doing.

brainfish• 4 years ago

As an eng mgr of a fully remote team, I do not agree with your assertion that "relationships cannot be made via zoom." Of the sixteen people I work closely with, I have met fewer than half in person, including a similar fraction of the engineers reporting to me. I seek to balance the lack of in-person interactions by leaning heavily into interest, compassion, and vulnerability. I take time in my 1:1s to ask about folks' lives, making sure to remember past details they have shared and to make it clear that I am generally interested in everything they have to share about themselves. But I think more importantly, I am conscientiously more vulnerable in my own sharing with those who take an interest than I might be otherwise. I put a little extra effort into "broadcasting" my interest in my colleagues as humans to make sure some of that truth makes it over the wire. The result is that I have very real human connections with nearly all of them, and the engineers on my team have stuck with me through some crazy s** that I don't think they all would have had it not been for those connections.

It's easy to get into a work mindset when using work tools. That can in turn cause us to skip those human interactions such as more personal conversations that might usually happen at lunch or whatever. Taking the time to elicit them, where natural, without the natural cues is hugely important. I have honestly never felt more connected with a team than I do with my current one, which was formed almost entirely post-pandemic. Hell, folks were building real human relationships with just pen and paper for ages not long ago. It can absolutely be done.

mtpockets5• 4 years ago

Managers like ourselves make the mistake thinking our close relationships with our folks means the relationship between our folks and others are equally close. That is because as managers people publish their info to us and are incentivized to do so where as two peers are not. And in large orgs, how do you gain visibility as an IC or build good professional connections or connect multiple young engineers together, the introvert to other introverts? To replace in office collisions at lunch or at the vending machine is equivalent to finding and randomly zooming folks in chat groups which is hard since calendars are hard to get on. Lots of friction.

But I speak of large orgs here, not 100 person startup where some of these things can be more easily managed… but still I know these companies do a lot of offsites to make up for the lack of connection in office.

jemmyw2• 4 years ago

I've worked for fully remote companies and fully in office companies and large companies and tiny ones. I've been an IC mostly but also a manger and lead. My observation is: it doesn't make a damn bit of difference. Decisions are made, people do the work. There has been no noticeable quality difference except in the case of large+office where the strong social element combined with the faceless corp equalled a lot more pissing about having fun rather than working.

The real insight a lot of people have had is that they can work just fine with their remote colleagues without a manger needing to watch them. I'm sure most managers such as yourself aren't like that, but it only takes one in an org to really make people unhappy.

mtpockets5• 4 years ago

True of bad managers. And in large orgs they are not isolated, usually a group under a bad director or vp of a division.

And totally agree on the work being visibly the exact same output if not more in my case.

But one example I can give is how for certain folks who want to build a professional career or want to grow, they need to know who in what group they can connect with. And in office it looks like you sometimes seeing a person many gravitate towards and ask about them and find out they are a somebody. In slack there are no similar strong signals and you have to browse many channels and who knows if they would accept your zoom invite to connect. And in most orgs, driving this kind of connection building is nearly impossible remote - asking an introvert to go be social is hard enough in person let alone ask them to browse slack channels.

And as a byproduct most people stagnate, feel alone. How do you try and make friends? How do you try to find people like you? Productivity is there but feeling of any other benefit from work is gone and lets be honest, not all software work is meaningful and clearly adds to the bottom line. Adding unit tests to a codebase is a lot more tolerable when you have people you chit chat with on your breaks or go to lunch with. Again.. big corp type work situations. But I know it is also true of non high growth startups or medium sized companies as well. The KtLo work (keep the lights on) is needed but not super invigorating.

Mandatum• 4 years ago

Do you have relationships with people you formed online? I think there's a subset of people (potentially the majority) who are unable to do that, and you're likely one.

syed_h522• 4 years ago

I have formed a lot of relationships online. But that is because I am good at doing so. Even then it took months to form real bonds. It would not have taken months if I knew what common ground to have conversations on from the start.

charlie0• 4 years ago

I agree with this 100%. As other commenters have pointed out, there is a difference between getting work done and actually building relationships. It's very possible to get high quality work done remotely, but relationship-wise, it's very transactional in nature for most people.

So far, I've been involved with several teammates and building meaningful relationships remotely has been impossible for one reason or another. It's always just a quick chat about the weather and maybe something interesting that happened to someone that week, but that's it. At best, it's just a shallow form of camaderie.

I do believe that good relationships can be built remotely, but it's not trivial to do. At my workplace, there was never a meaningful cultural shift towards remote work after COVID hit.

But hey, a bit of loneliness is better than being stuck in traffic for 2 hours a day right?

throwawaysleep3• 4 years ago

Yes and good riddance. I have real friends. I don't need fake forced work friends.

jorisboris• 4 years ago

If your budget allows it, doing an in-person week every quarter is my preferred approach.

Before, when working in the office, we used to follow the SAFe framework, which promotes doing a 2-day planning workshop every 4 to 6 sprints.

I got to know more about my colleagues during those 2 days offsite than during the 4 in-office sprints preceding it.

kodah• 4 years ago

I just started at a 100% remote company. I don't feel a loss of social interaction here, but I did at my previous company. There's a couple things I would note if you want to succeed with a remote culture:

- Have very direct conversations on your team about how you want communication to go. Our agreements sit right next to our team charter.

- How the company manages chat seems to affect how people communicate. If there's zero organization and everything gets dumped into a single channel, then people also stop bantering in that channel.

- Company chat channels shouldn't just be for business. Have some community channels that let people coordinate around topics. Supply "feed" channels where people can dump pictures and videos; I tend to post pictures of my dog, plants, or brews.

- Let people create channels on their own but give them a framework for doing so. That way they're more discoverable and descriptive. For instance, all of our community channels start with #comm- and team channels start with #team-

- Email should only be for formal and external communication. Having all of your communication in one place, for the most part, is quite nice.

- Establish quasi-working hours. My team has a window where all or most of us are online. It's not super strict, but it's there so we can coordinate. Most of our work is done asynchronously though.

- Have a stated bias towards using video. We also use the video tool built into our chat application instead of something external like Zoom.

- All meetings are remote first.

dymk2• 4 years ago

A framework for naming channels is something you don't realize you need until it's too late. My company is absolutely atrocious at it, and we now have thousands of channels. Many are cryptically named, and we have at least a couple of competing "standards" for naming channels. It's a real challenge to find what you're looking for.

vnuk• 4 years ago

Obligatory xkcd on "standards" https://xkcd.com/927/

ericzawo• 4 years ago

These are very helpful tips. Thank you.

jeremydeanlakey• 4 years ago

The desire for social connection at work might be dependent on phase-of-life.

My first job out of college had lots of socializing. In fact, that's where I met my wife.

Now I have kids. I don't really want to socialize with coworkers.

Socializing with coworkers was low before COVID. Now it's even slightly lower and I'm okay with that.

Edit: Also the impact of social connection on productivity might depend a lot on role and personalities involved.

agentultra• 4 years ago

Personally I don't go to work to make friends and feel absolutely no need to socialize with co-workers.

I'd rather socialize with my neighbors, actual friends, and family. Which wfh has given me more opportunities for.

Although one way I've managed to make more social connections is by spending more time in my local community. I have a pass to my local co-working space, I infrequently work out of my coffee shop, and I attend local developer meetups. Some of the people I've met through them I often grab a coffee with during the day.

syed_h522• 4 years ago

Very interesting since you do connect with people outside your work based on some shared interests/activities.

Do you think if you found out more shared interests with your co-workers, your work day-to-day wouldn't get better? Hypothetically: Like knowing a fellow dev you have worked with for years or a new member of the team is also a big fan of a specific EV or sport like you and is watching the US Open or preordered the new F150 Lightening?

Would that not make work, feel less like work? Overall establish a more welcoming/belonging dynamic?

radicalriddler• 4 years ago

Working from home made me realize how good the office is for socializing BUT... WFH let me move states to one of the biggest cities in the country and my social life has absolutely thrived, so I'm not too fussed.

My social connection with my coworkers has lowered, but I don't mind, because that's not why I work, and I've fostered a lot of social connections outside of work due to my move to full remote.

syed_h522• 4 years ago

So, that is great! But that isn't an option for everyone and that is okay.

But would it be bad if you were to have good social connections at work as well?

dymk2• 4 years ago

Meaningful social connections are built with coworkers by doing your job well, making sure you're communicating your work with them, and generally being a pleasant, trustworthy human being.

Coworkers are, generally, not the same as "real" friends. Certainly not those on your immediate team. Keep the relationship professional.

It's going to be a challenge to share deep personal feelings and views, because at the end of the day, the things you say to them can put your employment at risk.

syed_h522• 4 years ago

So I don't agree with this time of thinking. It is very archaic and less progressive towards a better culture. Yes, working well should be #1 priority. But relationship building goes far anywhere. Nobody is always perfect and having good relationships across teams help you at work more when there are tight situations.

Does taking about politics with co-workers help? No. But does talking about sports, cars, shows, movies, tech advancements etc help? Absolutely.

Existenceblinks• 4 years ago

Kinda yes. It's consequence of subsequence. Been 7 years that I don't have to rely on my old social circle for connection and work benefit, and I wanted out in the first place too. So I think it's profit with, of course, cost. Co-workers? Idk, I only like one guy, my boss, he's the nicest despite I didn't meet him in real life, I'd fly 18hrs to meet him someday, no problems!

cellis• 4 years ago

No, this is not a real problem. I never liked forced socializing and don’t intend to perpetuate it in my company.

philliphaydon• 4 years ago

I’ve been WFH since Jan 2020. Sometimes I like it… most of the time I really miss being in the office.

Miss chatting, going out for an hour at lunch with co-workers.

Miss being able to do whiteboard sessions and have proper discussions.

I also feel less productive at home. It’s more difficult to focus at home, much easier to get distracted.

eclipticplane• 4 years ago

You're missing your 'second place'. And, for a lot of modern society, your 'third place', too. This exacerbates the loss you feel for your second place. First is 'home', second is 'work', third is 'community'. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place

You don't _need_ a 'second place', but you may find it helpful to double down on the first and third.

The original book, The Great Good Place by Ray Oldenburg, is a bit dated. It was written at the cusp of modern connected life (late 80s?). While it does bore a few faults, the concept has helped me immensely in being purposeful and direct in adopting a 'third' place.

willjp• 4 years ago

I don’t feel disconnected. My workplace/manager is pretty exceptional about scheduling some time for us to get to know each other.

That said, I’ll acknowledge my bias - I’m fairly quiet and introverted, I feel more comfortable with video chats than water cooler talk.

tastysandwich• 4 years ago

With WFH there's this "forced" element to socialisation which I think is a problem.

When we were all working in an office together, the socialisation was way more natural. Someone did something funny, you all laughed together. You made a coffee/tea in the kitchen, had a brief, totally natural & lovely chat with someone, then went back to work.

But with WFH there's no spontaneity. We have a morning meeting with brief status-updates and fixed time for "chit-chat". Everyone just awkwardly goes quiet. What the hell do you talk about in a hangout where you're addressing 20 people?

I think this speaks to the way we form bonds with people. But maybe it's just me.

We form bonds by experiencing stuff together. All of my friends I either went to work with or studied with. We weren't stuck in a room and told "now be friends!" Even my brother-in-law. All the family dinners stuck making small talk couldn't amount to one day when we fixed up a car together.

WFH we've definitely lost the opportunity for those moments. There's social events (lawn bowls lol), but those are often outside of working hours and require people to divert time that could be spent with their own family/friends.

syed_h522• 4 years ago

You highlighted the problem we are trying to solve so well, and we love WFH too.

Our platform doesn't want outside activities to be the only way to bond. The easiest way to bond is to talk about interests both people share.

Could you please check out our platform and give us some feedback? We are essentially trying to cut out the legwork needed to form meaningful social bonds.

https://www.getparallel.io/

justinwp• 4 years ago

I don't share interests with most of my coworkers so I don't really feel like I'm missing out. The bigger issue has been adjustments to how I socialize with others from outside my work circle that share my interests during a pandemic. These challenges are greater for me than WFH.

Fire-Dragon-DoL• 4 years ago

I feel extremely attached to the people I work with and the company I work for, but we are full remote.

So as a point, no, we were all very looking forward our first onsite with many hugs (onsite was blocked due to covid)

dagmx• 4 years ago

Personally I grew up with my friends in multiple continents, and messenger apps like MSN etc kept us connected.

Every job I’ve had has similarly been a mix of locations with teams over multiple sites.

Working from home during the pandemic has been a natural extension of that.

You can build deep and meaningful connections with people online. You just need to approach it differently.

Look at entire gaming communities that do so despite never meeting.

Working apart from each other also doesn’t mean you can’t meet up outside work unless you truly live far apart. You can still socialize, but this time on your own terms instead of during work.

Anyway personally I haven’t felt a deterioration in connections. In fact I talk more often to my colleagues, and more importantly, to a wider range of colleagues than before.

I do however think different people have different aptitudes for online socialization. I do notice some people who were not terribly social at work, suddenly stop talking to anyone they don’t work with directly. And many people have issues not having face to face communication for context clues.

However I think this is totally subjective to the individuals, and having worked at multiple multi site companies, I think remote work can be much better for wide team building.

You can do away with the smaller cliques to some degree, disseminate information in easier to find locations and reduce tribal knowledge. People in other locations can be seen as equals to the ones local.

In fact when I worked in the office and supervised teams across multiple locations, I’d treat everyone on the team as remote when it came to most communication. Team chat rooms were encouraged instead of people coming by my desk unless needed. What I saw was that more people were aware of everything going on and were able to do better work as a result. I also found people who were too shy to ask questions were suddenly more able to ask them and have them answered because they saw the more confident individuals also asking things in the open chats rather than in person.

There are definite downsides to it all, but I find it really scales better in the long term

neilv• 4 years ago

In-person can make the bonding and camaraderie a lot easier for many people -- some, more than others.

That said, for the last 40+ years, people have also been building relationships online, much stronger than usual office ones. And, for much of that period, it was without even the benefit of videoconferencing. Some of my closest friends are from various open source communities, for example, and I've only ever met about half of them in-person.

I think many companies haven't yet figured out how to provide fertile soil for distributed teams to bond. And I've heard of cases where employees try to do it organically, but their style is cramped by the company (e.g., mandated corporate communications tools that aren't amenable to this, keyloggers as part of "endpoint security" having people feel under surveillance, suspicions that video calls are recorded, culture and metrics/demands that don't permit genuine casual interaction time).

Another speedbump sometimes might be for people who've grown up with their in-person charisma/presence a part of how they interact, and haven't yet fully adapted to other modalities. Nobody is tall on webcam, but a lot of other human qualities are still important, and can be expressed and perceived.

syed_h522• 4 years ago

Yes, I don't think companies have really figured out how to grow the bond within teams. A lot of times employees struggle with just belonging to a company.

I really liked your POV. I am asking this favor from some of the people here with unique POVs. Would you mind checking us out at www.getparallel.io ? We wrapped up our MVP and our whole thing is to provide the fertile soil as you mentioned.

Markoff• 4 years ago

I WFH exclusively for 6+ years.

1. If you work from home obviously you will have lack of (work) social connections, yes WFH ain't that much fun as office.

2. I don't really need to know coworkers, it's useless information unrelated to my work. I work with some people 6+ years and have absolutely zero clue about their background or anything, actually I am almost longest working person there, I see people in emails changing while I am staying there, I dunno what happens to those people who stop writing me emails, whether they had kid, died or left for other company.

3. I don't even know what is "fit into company", I deliver results, nobody cares about some unmeasurable "fit", must be an American thing.

4. I know for sure social connections and open space office in work decreased my productivity/performance and time spent working. I was among the chattiest people in work, so I would enjoy that, but certainly it would take toll on my results.

5. My kid was born 7 years ago, so I wouldn't have time for social interactions outside work anyway other than on playgrounds/trips.

syed_h522• 4 years ago

So our intention is to not go back into the office at all. Or to hang outside of work.

looking at things that make work fun as "useless info" is a pretty bleak way to live life. I enjoy knowing that my co-worker is a soccer fan. So, after the weekend I can talk to him about the game. That doesn't mean I don't have other friends to talk soccer with. But talking to a co-worker about it makes work fun. It also builds great relationships which is always dependable in the corporate world.

"Fit into company" isn't an American thing haha. As you said, everyone changes and you are still there. So, lets say you join a new company tomorrow. Wouldn't it be great to know what similar interests you share with your new team from day 1? It makes it easier to get to know them, start work and even gives most people the confidence to ask difficult questions. Thats what fitting into a company fast looks like. It also increases productivity for the new people because they have fit in faster.

evansmidwa• 4 years ago

I for real love work from home. Been doing it for three years now.

solraph• 4 years ago

This is absolutely a real problem, but I think WFH has really only exposed the issue of most peoples lack of real community, rather than causing it.

Since starting a new job a few months ago, I reached out to some former tech colleagues that live close by, and meet up every few weeks at a local pub. It's kind of of like a meetup, but there's no agenda, speakers, or specific tech focus. People are encouraged to organically invite other people that fit the group, which has seen it grow from three to twelve people in about three months.

I honestly think it's one of the best tech groups I've been part of, and has been a big part of keeping me sane in my 100% WFH job.

MattPalmer1086• 4 years ago

A lack of social connection at work, sure. We do set up informal meetings to shoot the breeze with each other, but its definitely not the same.

I've never been a massively social person at work to be honest, so I don't miss it hugely, but it's definitely a loss. I still prefer working at home for the most part though. Maybe if I didn't have a family and a long commute I'd feel differently!

stareatgoats• 4 years ago

The insight that people are different often seems to be missing from these discussions of the pros and cons of WFH.

Some people like to socialize at work, they find it indispensable in fact. On the other side of the bell curve you find people that feel liberated by not having to socialize with everyone else. This difference has to do with personalities as well as different stages in life, and can only marginally be influenced by company policies and work routines.

None of this will determine whether WFH home will take over or not however. WFH will likely become ubiquitous because it gives companies a competitive cost advantage. People who need an on-location workplace in order to fulfil their social needs will likely chose careers in the service sector, jobs like barbers, health workers etc.

thefz• 4 years ago

I come from the opposite scenario. I lost the toxicity I was living in everyday and I feel reborn.

redditor98654• 4 years ago

For me I have not missed it one bit. My co-workers are not my friends and even though I am friendly with them and joke around when we are in conversation at the workplace/Slack, when the work day ends, we don't seek to add more socializing.

I return to my family and friends and so do they.

true_religion• 4 years ago

Social connection to my coworkers? Not really since I talk to them on a daily basis and that’s all that’s needed for a good working relationship.

As for my own morale, it’s much improved since in the downtime I can have water cooler chat with my real life friends and family.

I like to think that if WFH had been here in 2000, my college buddies would have had a great time staying in the same house and working. Instead we moved to different states for jobs.

orwin• 4 years ago

Last month, i lived temporarily in a house with roommates I knew very well (my brother and a good friend) and we were all working from home. Water cooler moments, breaks, taking care of food and cooking, taking care of the garden...

Everything was just better than any workplace environment I've been in, and way better than the 'startup house' i lived in when i thought we had good ideas and that my colleagues were my friends and nice to live with.

supersparrow• 4 years ago

I started a new job April 2021 and haven’t felt a lack of social connection. In fact, I feel like I have built better social connections faster working remotely. I am a software developer and honestly find it easier to communicate and build relationships over group or direct messages, and I believe a lot of developers are similar - it’s just the nature of us.

We have weekly catch up meetings over video chat, as well as other meetings which also helps and generally everyone has their camera on which helps.

These connections I have built over Slack and MS Teams have directly translated into real life, and when we do meet up for company parties or whatever, it’s as if I’ve always been there and the social connection remains.

BackBlast• 4 years ago

The connections can still be made virtually, but the mechanisms and supports need to be created. In person there is always some slack time before or after meetings, in the hallways, cubes following interactions. If you can foster an environment where these slack times can happen digitally too, then you can have some of these impromptu discussions and get to know yous.

I suggest that video chats are probably the best format for this. Encourage people to work camera on, and to schedule small calls regularly with each other rather than always coordinating on chat/email. Start with some small talk, go into shop talk, and see what naturally falls out at the end just like regular meetings. If you're a lead/manager then set an example to this end and encourage (don't force) others to follow it.

syed_h522• 4 years ago

totally agree with you on the mechanisms not being there. That is what we are trying to do with https://www.getparallel.io/

drakonka• 4 years ago

I have some social connection with my teammates and my coworkers are awesome, but work isn't really a place where I focus on those things. Just working with kind professionals is more than enough. I've recently moved to a new city, so I'm making new social connections outside of work via meetups.

akmarinov• 4 years ago

Don’t really care for in person interaction. In the past however many jobs I’ve found that the only reason you are “friends” with people at work is that you see them every day.

You leave or they leave and 90% of the time you never hear from them again.

drewcoo• 4 years ago

No. I noticed that problem when COVID lockdowns happened. And lots of people who don't work from home still haven't recovered their social lives either.

I realize a lot of people use work as a social crutch, but honestly if the closest friends you have are people who are paid to hang out with you, you have deeper problems.

The WFH Folks

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