From August 1: Cash transactions above NIS 6k illegal

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/357072

by walterbell • 4 years ago

195 334 4 years ago

israelnationalnews.com

collegeburner• 4 years ago

well uhh fuck that. its only like $1740 and the reasons they list for getting rid of cash is exactly why we need cash.

badrabbit5• 4 years ago

And why bitcoin is here to stay regardless of price and of course xmr.

p1necone2• 4 years ago

Bitcoin specifically is inadequate to act as anything more than a very infrequently traded store of value. Not a currency that is exchanged for goods and services in small amounts by many people.

Someone needs to build a better cryptocurrency, but it everyone is preoccupied with building ponzi schemes and pump and dump scams instead.

aaronbrethorst• 4 years ago

Ah yes, the notoriously computer-illiterate Israeli government will never think to monitor Bitcoin transactions.

cube00• 4 years ago

7 transactions a second won't cut it unfortunately[1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin_scalability_problem

hristov3• 4 years ago

It is very easy to track crypto spending. All the information is there on the blockchain for anybody to peruse. The blockchain may not have personal identifications, but you only need to catch a person spending bitcoin once in order to match them to a blockchain wallet.

So if the Israeli government's goal is to track citizen's spending, they will love crypto.

MerelyMortal2• 4 years ago

All the replies so far seem to focus on Bitcoin and not XMR (Monero). Monero does a better job at solving the problems that have been mentioned about Bitcoin:

A blocksize that scales which also leads to reduced fees, transactions and address balances are private.

(Disclaimer: I own some XMR, but not much.)

anigbrowl2• 4 years ago

lol imagine still buying this.

You have even less privacy with BTC than you do with fiat.

Double_a_923• 4 years ago

This seems extreme, but it's actually already common in some European countries (e.g. Italy where the limit is 999€).

alfiedotwtf2• 4 years ago

It's almost like we need some kind of cryptography currency

patates2• 4 years ago

What does a "cryptography currency" bring to the table in regards to this problem that cash hasn't? The fact that it hasn't been banned... yet?

Cash is way less traceable than most cryptocurrencies.

redox9911• 4 years ago

Of course cash is better, but with cash the government is in charge of issuance.

What are you going to do if governments decide against issuing any more cash? Bills will eventually break, or the currency itself will lose too much value due to inflation that the bills won't enough.

With crypto you don't rely on your government issuing cash.

tphyahoo23• 4 years ago

see my reply to redox99 below.

probably would have been better as reply to you.

solatic9• 4 years ago

Surprised to find this on the front page of HN.

Note that the current law already forbids cash transactions higher than 11,000 NIS and that an exception is carved out for automobile purchases. This law is tightening screws that already exist, not implementing new screws.

kelnos• 4 years ago

I hadn't heard of this before today, and I think the same is probably true for many other people, so I found it interesting and notable.

noisy_boy• 4 years ago

Maybe it is beneficial for the knowledge of those who didn't know about the original screws in the first place.

brigandish• 4 years ago

Why is an insidious erosion of rights and liberties better than a sudden one, and why does that (if that's why, it's unclear) make it surprising to find on the front page?

solatic9• 4 years ago

Culturally, Israelis only value privacy in very narrow contexts that are carved out and afforded protection in law (reputational and medical privacy). This is a country where there are security guards who open your bags before you can enter public places like government offices, malls, and public transit terminals, and airport security at Ben Gurion is world-famous for its invasiveness.

Israelis accept this because Ben Franklin's quote about liberty and security falls on deaf ears here. To Israelis, security is a pre-requisite for liberty, not the other way around, and there is wide public support for measures that would be completely DOA in the US, like government identity registries (that now include facial scans and fingerprint databases, with fingerprinting admittedly optional but fingerprinting extends the validity period of issued identification) and extremely strict gun control.

Financial security is pretty much the same, for example, most of the Israeli drug trade links back to terrorist organizations and as such a "war on cash" is seen by many as fighting against terrorists as well.

samizdis• 4 years ago

I'm sure that I am missing something obvious here, but why are car purchases exempt from the threshold reduction? Dealers/dealerships must come under an awful lot of regulatory scrutiny - or pressure from elements keen to keep transactions private. Or maybe the exception applies to only person-to-person sales, and not buinesses.

solatic9• 4 years ago

Basically a political carve-out for the only reason "most" people would need to handle such a large amount of cash.

oarsinsync• 4 years ago

In other news, they also plan to raise minimum wage to NIS 6000 by 2025.

This effectively mandates electronic banking for all full time salaried workers by 2025.

walterbell8• 4 years ago

there are plans afoot to impose additional restrictions on cash in the future, with the Treasury and Tax Authority pushing for a law prohibiting any citizen from holding more than NIS 200,000 in cash in his home.

One motivation for CBDCs (Central Bank Digital Currencies) was succinctly stated by BIS (Bank of International Settlements, the central bank for all central banks, including US and UK) Director Carstens at an IMF meeting in 2020, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVmKN4DSu3g&t=1451s

With cash, we don't know who is using the 100 dollar bill today ... a key difference with CBDC is that the central bank will have absolute control on the rules and regulations that determine the expression of that central bank liability .. also we will have the technology to enforce that ... if an advanced economy issues a CBDC, and someone in a 3rd country wants to use it, it will require the consent of the central bank of the residence of that person, therefore the degree of control will be far bigger.

Previous CBDC threads on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30634245 (2022), https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27805709 (2021).

Meanwhile, the US UCC (Uniform Commercial Code) was modified in July 2022 to recognize CERs (controllable electronic records), a flexible definition which could apply to both decentralized cryptocurrencies and centralized CBDCs. It's now up to individual U.S. states to ratify these changes in state legislation, https://www.clearygottlieb.com//news-and-insights/publicatio...

Control under Article 12 is designed to be a technology-neutral functional equivalent of “possession.” It generally encompasses circumstances when a party has the “private key” or other mechanism to avail itself of substantially all of the benefits of the record, prevent others from availing themselves of such benefits, and transfer the record and associated benefits.

influxmoment• 4 years ago

China will definitely be the leader in CBCDs. This is the kind of control over their population they seek

lettergram• 4 years ago

The stated purpose of the law is to force the general public to use digital means of payment rather than cash, so that transactions can be easily monitored.

You mean you don’t want the government monitoring you at all times?

I mean, the end goal is also to decide what you spend it on…

Digital dollars, on the other hand, would be traceable and programmable. The Federal Reserve (or some other designated entity) would have the ability to create more digital dollars whenever it sees fit, and, depending on how the legislation is written setting up the currency, the dollars could be formulated to have various rules and restrictions built into their design.

https://thehill.com/opinion/finance/599768-biden-is-planning...

(This is the US, but UK, EU, and I’m assuming elsewhere all have the same legislation at the moment. China already has this to a degree with the social credit system)

Imagine, I go to get groceries:

checkout machine: “sorry, you used all your carbon credits this month”

You: “but I need food!”

Checkout machine: “if you need food, remember cricket powder is carbon net neutral”

You: “guess I’ll eat that this week.. grumble”

Yeah, that’s literally and explicitly what is being discussed. Maybe this scenario is exaggerated, but carbon tax credit and restricting purchases inbound.

a_t482• 4 years ago

This is heavy, heavy speculation.

redox9911• 4 years ago

The same way that people claimed 20 years ago that cash would be made illegal was "heavy, heavy speculation"?

colordrops3• 4 years ago

Public commentary in forums that serve as forges of opinion such as HN are much more than passive statements. It's similar to the quantum effect of observation affecting the state of a system. These speculative comments actively shape opinion. Any friction against the slide towards a cashless society is welcome. Speculation serves to stoke the imagination of a populace that would be subject to these changes if there was no friction for policy makers. An example is the Murderbots video which speculates on a future where small commercial drones are used as domestic political and literal weapons.

once_inc• 4 years ago

It always is, until it is proven a fact. In my country, people were being alarmist about the Corona travel restrictions, the vaccine, and the negative externalities of closing the healthcare system to pretty much everything. The alarmists were given a derogatory name, their concerns were labeled "speculation" and generally after 6 months, turned out to be true.

Gov: "There will be no app to restrict your movements if you aren't vaccinated."

Six months later: there's an app.

Gov: "The vaccine is fully tested and is completely safe"

Six months later: vaccine turns out to not have been completely tested, and the corporations behind it can't be sued.

Consider me heavily, heavily sceptical about CBDC's and the government's/central bank's desires to build a social credit system. I've seen too many quotes by August Karsten not to be.

nradov• 4 years ago

Remember Citizen, meat is for Party members only.

kennywinker3• 4 years ago

Your language is referencing communism, but this is mostly happening under capitalism not communism.

There is a meme in leftist spheres of pro-capitalist people posting photos of slums saying "this is the world under communism", except it's literally a photo of a part of the world under capitalism. Anyway, thought you should know you did the meme.

knowaveragejoe6• 4 years ago

How does this kind of reactionary doomerism stuff have any traction on HN of all places?

walterbell8• 4 years ago

There's a relevant table on page 7 of this 2020 UK document, https://www.repository.cam.ac.uk/bitstream/handle/1810/29941...

Note the goal of zero consumer travel by 2050.

Are private jets and yachts subject to Net Zero carbon restrictions?

Nursie3• 4 years ago

That document appears to be an academic exercise into how the UK could reach absolute zero emissions, not net zero but actually completely zero, and doing it using current tech.

This is not anyone's policy nor realistic.

(edit: putting further comments here as I am rate limited and unable to reply -

The paper itself says on page 4 that it is going over and above the climate commitments in law in the UK, and is about absolute zero emissions. It even says the paper is an appeal for public discussion and then goes on to set out what it means by Absolute Zero and how that differs from the current law.

This is not a policy document.

Heathrow's decision to cut flights is due to ongoing covid-related staffing problems, not environmental concerns.)

morpheuskafka• 4 years ago

It doesn't say zero consumer travel, it specifically talks about trains being the preferred mode of travel and becoming faster.

It does say that all airports would close by 2050. However, that doesn't address military flights or flights used for other than transportation purposes (ex. aerial imagery, etc.) So it would seem that small airstrips would likely remain open for those purposes.

They don't seem to suggest a solution for intercontinental travel at all. Presumably, everyone would have to land in the European mainland and take a train over. But it would seem strange to rely totally on the EU for that.

zimpenfish3• 4 years ago

Note the goal of zero consumer travel by 2050.

I'm not seeing where it says that? It explicitly says, for 2050, "Road use at 60% of 2020 levels" and "Electric trains the preferred mode of travel for people and freight over all significant distances". If you mean "flying and shipping are at zero" then yes but that's only because they don't envisage having net-zero planes and ships by 2050. If electric planes and ships arrive before then, they'll be usable under this plan (as it says under "Beyond 2050").

impossiblefork• 4 years ago

Are private jets and yachts subject to Net Zero carbon restrictions?

This isn't an answer, but the European Commission have proposed an aviation fuel tax that exempts cargo aircraft and private jets.

miohtama• 4 years ago

Private jets wanted to be exempt from jet fuel carbon tax in the EU:

https://www.argusmedia.com/en/news/2231434-eu-draft-exempts-...

max_entropy• 4 years ago

I hope this is an academic exercise because if absolute zero entails no air travel, no shipping, no lamb or beef, amongst other prohibitions, it also entails violence.

Dylan168072• 4 years ago

Most of the point of carbon credits is that you can buy more if you want.

chitowneats3• 4 years ago

I'm not sure why this is meant to make me feel better.

The elite would bid up the price of the credits so they can fully enjoy their yachts and private jets.

It would still be crickets for proles.

quickthrower23• 4 years ago

Eventually ... if you drive a mate to the airport, and it is a benefit in kind worth $100 say, then they have to report it and pay tax on it.

solatic9• 4 years ago

Maybe this scenario is exaggerated, but carbon tax credit and restricting purchases inbound.

It's funny, in context, because Israel is the largest per-capita consumer of single-use plastics in the world, driven by a religious public that uses single-use plastic to help comply with religious dietary law. Attempts have been made to implement taxation of single-use plastic, but have failed because of entrenched religious party members in the government. And crickets don't comply with Jewish dietary law.

The truth is more mundane. When finding plumbers, movers, painters, etc. it is quite common to be quoted a price "without VAT", which is code for "pay in cash, don't request a receipt, and we won't charge you the additional 17%, thus also permitting them to underreport income.

2Gkashmiri2• 4 years ago

india does the same thing.... there is an entire world of unregulated cash economy which does not care about indirect taxes.

plumbers, movers, painters, etc

unless you are quite big, you are not required to get registered with the tax department and as such, you dont collect taxes on your sales from customers.

ars6• 4 years ago

driven by a religious public that uses single-use plastic to help comply with religious dietary law

Say what now? As someone who knows this religious dietary law quite well, I have never heard of this ever.

In addition you have to pay for each bag in the supermarket in Israel, those disposable bags are not free, so I really doubt they are wasting them that way. https://www.gov.il/en/departments/news/decrease_of_74_percen...

selfhoster112• 4 years ago

And crickets don't comply with Jewish dietary law.

If you mean specifically the religious law, then locusts/grasshoppers are the only kind of insect permitted to eat (see Leviticus 11:20-23). Ancient prophets consumed them too.

smileybarry• 4 years ago

[...]it is quite common to be quoted a price "without VAT", which is code for "pay in cash, don't request a receipt, and we won't charge you the additional 17%[...]

It's also annoyingly used to quote one price and then "oh but you also need to add VAT", sidestepping the law that requires prices always be specified with VAT. (A store is not allowed to advertise a VAT-less price and then charge VAT afterwards, the price you see is the price you pay, they must deduct VAT)

Nursie3• 4 years ago

Or alternately it's about combatting large-scale money laundering, terrorist arms sale, and the stuff that they actually say it's for.

Hmmm.

I mean, the end goal is also to decide what you spend it on…

Or that might just be ludicrous hyperbole, and the article you linked could be 95% speculation, as it appears to be. The environmental concerns could be more to do with the investigations on BTC and ETH and the wastefulness of PoW.

But no, I'm sure you're right, the US government that is helpless in the face of citizens slaughtering each other with firearms is going to regulate how much beef you can cram down your gullet.

bparsons• 4 years ago

Carbon accounting is simply a way to build in a price signal to activity that produces an unwanted externality.

Imagine if it were free and legal to dump garbage in your local park. That is how air pollution is currently treated in the US.

In jurisdictions with sensible climate policy, you pay to dump waste into the atmosphere and those dollars are used to reduce GHG emissions elsewhere.

knowaveragejoe6• 4 years ago

Imagine, I go to get groceries:
checkout machine: “sorry, you used all your carbon credits this month”
You: “but I need food!”
Checkout machine: “if you need food, remember cricket powder is carbon net neutral”
You: “guess I’ll eat that this week.. grumble”
Yeah, that’s literally and explicitly what is being discussed. Maybe this scenario is exaggerated, but carbon tax credit and restricting purchases inbound.

This is trad "RETVRN" conspiracy BS verbatim. Nobody is going to force you to eat bugs or live in the pod. Let's try and do better, folks.

calvinmorrison• 4 years ago

And this is where technologists totally fail to understand the implications of the technology they push forward.

Okay, get a drivers license, OK submit to speed limits, OK submit to random searches for a failed bulb, OK submit to automated license plate scanners, OK submit to marketing companies tracking your car in the parking lot.

Most technologies do not exist in a vacuum, when one becomes entrenched in society, it is impossible to operate as a human without one. Even the Amish have telephones now.

woodruffw11• 4 years ago

This, for those who aren't aware, is a somewhat more eloquent rephrasing of the "Great Reset" neoreactionary conspiracy theory[1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Reset#Conspiracy_theorie...

llampx• 4 years ago

Label a dog a conspiracy theory and hang him.

renlo3• 4 years ago

Uh oh, sounds like a “conspiracy theory”, must not have any validity at all.

Is there a “sounds like a conspiracy theory” fallacy someone can point me to?

coldtea5• 4 years ago

What "conspiracy theory"? Several government officials clubs and "policy proposal" bodies have openly stated plans to that effect, and even used those very terms. They have even published public policy wishlist books about it, it's not like they've been shy about it.

That's a conspiracy alright, in the sense of coordinated action to specific goals, but hardly a "conspiracy theory".

But of course, if you tag it a "conspiracy theory" knee-jerk idiots will consider it to be the same category as alien abductions, the illuminati, and Elvis being alive...

systemvoltage3• 4 years ago

Has anyone properly debunked it? I just looked up the WEF promotion video about the Great Reset and it is just straight out of Orwell's 1984 including slogans like "OBEY": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPYx12xJFUQ

I can understand why people are skeptical. Youtube dislike extension shows 10% likes to 90% dislikes ratio on 1.8M views. Youtube's clarification banner doesn't help the impression. Why is Youtube putting warning banners like they did for Covid, but for Great Reset?

IngoBlechschmid• 4 years ago

When politicians argue in favor of this kind of CO2 reduction measures, targeted at individual citizens, know that they are (perhaps unconsciously, perhaps because of dependence) following the framing put forward by fossil fuel companies:

https://mashable.com/feature/carbon-footprint-pr-campaign-sh...

BP spent a lot of advertising budget so that we worry about our individual CO2 footprint instead of focussing on appropriate and social policy change which would enable us and make it easy to live climate-positively.

gumby• 4 years ago

I mean, the end goal is also to decide what you spend it on…

Governments in the US already exercise this power, making certain drugs illegal, restricting purchases of certain products, regulating quality and other requirements for food, vehicles, construction, etc.

Digital dollars, on the other hand, would be traceable and programmable. The Federal Reserve (or some other designated entity) would have the ability to create more digital dollars whenever it sees fit, and, depending on how the legislation is written setting up the currency, the dollars could be formulated to have various rules and restrictions built into their design.

The federal government already exercises both of these powers. The federal reserve changes the money supply. And WIC/“food stamps” (originally specially printed currency, now a cash card) can only be spent on certain purchases.

coldtea5• 4 years ago

Governments in the US already exercise this power

Yes. And now they will have it at 100x the reach, 100x the efficiency, and with automatic monitoring, install rule-change enforcement, and so on.

I never understood the tendency to say "It's already a thing" when the new development is so quantitatively and qualitatively different from what existed, as to be a whole new thing...

It's like "We're at war, the towns are bombed, and people are getting killed? Big deal, people were already getting killed in murder cases and gang shootings".

kichik2• 4 years ago

For context, under the table transactions are very common in Israel. Tax avoidance is everywhere.

DSingularity• 4 years ago

Are you surprised that a country built by illegally stealing other peoples land and property would have citizens who don’t respect its laws?

ls152• 4 years ago

If the citizens of a democracy don't respect its laws, then it is not a democracy.

barry-cotter2• 4 years ago

a country built by illegally stealing other peoples land

That would be all of them? Even if you ignore illegally I’m not aware of a sovereign state that was settled by people who were there first settlers and has continuity of government.

quickthrower23• 4 years ago

s/Israel/every country/

walterbell8• 4 years ago

Those pesky citizens! Meanwhile, https://wallstreetonparade.com/2020/09/3-count-felon-jpmorga...

... secret documents leaked from FinCEN, the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network, a unit of the U.S. Treasury. The documents “show that five global banks — JPMorgan, HSBC, Standard Chartered Bank, Deutsche Bank and Bank of New York Mellon — kept profiting from powerful and dangerous players even after U.S. authorities fined these financial institutions for earlier failures to stem flows of dirty money.”

Trailer for Netflix series, The Laundromat, https://youtube.com/watch?v=wuBRcfe4bSo

cbg02• 4 years ago

Great whataboutism.

kichik2• 4 years ago

You can stay within Israel for that pivot. We have our fair share of rich people not paying. https://www.reuters.com/article/natgas-israel-leviathan-idIN...

actually_a_dog• 4 years ago

"Tax avoidance" is what rich people do by exploiting loopholes and aggressively taking deductions. "Tax evasion" is what you're talking about here.

anigbrowl2• 4 years ago

The same loopholes that they lobbied for. Soooo much better.

kragen8• 4 years ago

Another entry in the list of "What is Bitcoin good for, anyway?"

vxNsr• 4 years ago

Bitcoin is actually worse than this. Bitcoin is easily traceable and doesn’t solve the “anonymous money” problem that cold hard cash solves. Not only is Bitcoin easily traceable the record exists forever and is impossible to erase. There are other crypto products that attempt to solve this issue but Bitcoin is definitely not one of them.

redox9911• 4 years ago

Bitcoin is much better in that it's pseudonymous (instead of 100% associated to your real identity) and cannot be censored (instead of your government being able to freeze your funds, only allow transferring from/to X, up to Y amount, etc).

Barrin923• 4 years ago

"breaking the law" is the only entry in the "what is bitcoin good for" discussion that everyone already agrees on. I thought the point was getting away from that image though.

s3tz• 4 years ago

If the law is nonsense then breaking the law is a very good use case.

DocTomoe2• 4 years ago

lex iniusta non est lex. We've philosophically explored that idea for millenia. It's time to act on it.

kragen8• 4 years ago

At least for the time being the law does not prohibit Bitcoin transactions above NIS 6k, does it? So it's more like "getting the benefits of breaking the law, without breaking the law".

young_unixer• 4 years ago

Please, HN, tell me again how cryptocurrencies are useless.

quickthrower23• 4 years ago

Because the malware they have backdoored into your phone can track what money you have sent/received?

ori_b• 4 years ago

You're right -- the traceable transaction ledger that most cryptocurrencies generate is exactly what this law is intended to force people towards, to ease the burden on law enforcement. Combined with basic know-your-customer laws, they're quite useful for tracking down illegal transactions.

trinovantes• 4 years ago

"Hmm this person is receiving high value products but we have no record of money being exchanged. Maybe we should send the police to 'interrogate'"

Double_a_923• 4 years ago

How would crypto currencies solve this issue? Crypto transactions above that value are also illegal and traceable. If you wanted to break the law it would be easier to just keep using regular cash.

OR just use your bank account / card to send money, which is kinda like crypto but easier and legal.

throwaway2902• 4 years ago

Mind elaborating how cryptocurrencies are at all helpful here? How's government saying 2k cash transactions are illegal different from it saying 2k Bitcoin or Monero transactions are illegal?

The point is not that cops will now chase after conspicuous stacks of colorful paper, but that law-abiding citizens and businesses will refuse dealing with you and/or report you to police if you suggest to commit an offence.

cperciva2• 4 years ago

I'm surprised that this applies to cheques. Can someone from the region explain this?

In Canada cash transactions over $10k are possible but require a large amount of extra paperwork for anti-money-laundering reasons, but there's no such restriction on cheques since the government can see all those clearing through the banking system already.

solatic9• 4 years ago

In Israel, checks are basically legally-enforced IOUs and are thus nearly the same as cash. Once a check is written in a particular amount, that check can be transferred to another party. If the check bounces, that party can take the person who wrote the check to court and begin legal proceedings to enforce a recovery of the funds in the amount listed on the check. Israel has a state institution, Hotza'ah LePo'al, which enforces the collection and payment of debt through means like garnishing wages and cancelling passports.

To evade taxes, one merely needs to trade in such IOUs without actually cashing them out.

ars6• 4 years ago

To evade taxes, one merely needs to trade in such IOUs without actually cashing them out.

So because the law about bounced checks is so strict, checks are essentially as good as cash? That's an amazing unintended effect.

cperciva2• 4 years ago

Aha, interesting! In Canada it's possible to "countersign" a cheque, allowing it to be cashed by a third party, but in practice it's extremely rare and many banks refuse to cash such cheques.

It never occurred to me that this mechanism could be used for money laundering!

anjel• 4 years ago

Eliminate non-fungible revenue and many many forms of corruption are abruptly rendered extinct. It might even repurpose why people enter politics.

atemerev• 4 years ago

Oh, cash is not how you bribe politicians in (relatively) civilized countries. Inside information, bearer shares in offshore projects, and board seats will have to do.

boomboomsubban• 4 years ago

It's crazy how they openly admit they're targeting the exception available to PA Arabs yet are fine with the one available to haredi Jews.

I realize it's completely in line with Israel's laws, but imagine if there was a change in US law with a loophole that kept Christian churches tax exempt but closed that loophole for Jewish synagogues. The outrage would be immense. Yet in this story the line is a non-issue, seemingly thrown in to show an added "bonus" of making things worse for PA Arabs.

ars6• 4 years ago

This law applies to the Israeli trading with the PA Arab, not to the PA Arab.

hristov3• 4 years ago

The main reason for this is taxes. It is the same reason why India's government is also trying to ban cash (with very negative results for the economy).

You see rich people have to use banks. Because over certain sums, using cash just becomes way too dangerous. So they use banks which means the banks report to the government and the government gets their taxes. But rich people also often influence the government (or even outright run it). And they hate paying taxes. So they want to shift some of the taxation burden on to the middle class and the poor. But poor people often use cash and sometimes skim on taxes. I am sure this happens with some of the more adventurous middle class too. For smaller sums cash is perfectly manageable.

Thus, the government becomes very concerned and does everything it can to "help" the poor move to more modern electronic payments.

radiKal07• 4 years ago

they hate paying taxes. So they want to shift some of the taxation burden on to the middle class and the poor.

I don't understand how making middle/poor class pay more taxes spares the rich from taxes.

chitowneats3• 4 years ago

The theory is that broadening the tax base will create a large constituency with a vested interest in responsible government spending.

Or perhaps, more cynically, for lower taxes overall.

octagonal• 4 years ago

It acts as a "pre-emptive" tax shift. If more people pay taxes there's going to be less pressure on the government to set an ever higher tax rate, because now they receive more money while levying the same amount.

josephcsible• 4 years ago

The government needs a certain amount of revenue. If some people get away with cheating on their taxes, then the tax rates for everyone else need to be higher to get that much revenue.

spaceman_2020• 4 years ago

Cash transactions seem to be on the way out in most Indian metros.

However, once you move out of the big cities and into the small towns, cash still rules.

mirekrusin• 4 years ago

Nowadays you have to have payment terminal if you want the luxury of begging when living under the bridge.

cm2187• 4 years ago

It’s hard not to see financial repression as another likely motive. Make it impossible for someone to operate without a bank account, then use the banking system as a mean to retaliate against your political ideas like Trudeau did already. It’s similar to covid apps being used to prevent protests in China.

There is a worrying return to authoritarianism everywhere. People forget that none of their rights would have been won if there wasn’t any wiggle room in the system, for people to do illegal things before they get accepted as legal, like smoking pot, being gay, being pro-democracy, etc.

mellavora2• 4 years ago

getting an abortion, 40 hour work weeks, having health insurance, ...

dannyw• 4 years ago

The freezing and debanking of protestors is a shockingly dangerous precedent.

You are literally removing people's functional access to food, water, and shelter.

CTDOCodebases3• 4 years ago

I don't disagree with your message but why does everyone frame what happened in Canada as a protest? From afar it looked more like a campaign of societal disruption that was paid for by people all around the world with the "protesters" requesting donations.

asah• 4 years ago

fwiw, NIS 6K (USD$1.7K) single transactions is exceptionally rare for poor people.

tinus_hn• 4 years ago

Another ‘neat’ aspect is that this makes society shun even more those undesirables that can’t get a bank account.

softgrow• 4 years ago

Australia tried to introduce a similar thing with reporting of cash transactions of AUD10,000 except buying a car. https://treasury.gov.au/policy-topics/economy/black-economy The proposal died, I'm not sure why. Personally I wouldn't be affected, but apparently 3% of Australia's GDP is in the "black economy".

netsharc• 4 years ago

reporting of cash transactions of AUD10,000 except buying a car.

I wonder if the exception is easily abused. "Here's a 1980's beater and a suitcase which does not contain cocaine, that'll be 30 thousand dollars please!".

beagle33• 4 years ago

The Israeli version is not new. It was introduced 3 years ago (perhaps more?) with the sums that are legal to transact in cash reducing every year or so. At first, it was sums that only affected people who were (likely) doing things illegally (e.g. drugs, bribes, tax evasion, money laundering, etc). So there was little to no protest -- very few people realized where this was going.

Now, it basically affects everyone - the current threshold is in the between minimum wage and average wage, closer to minimum, with exceptions for effectively 5-year-or-older-common-cars and a couple more things. In a couple of years, the threshold would likely be lower than minimum wage (either by rule change, or by inflation that would bring minimum wage above current threshold), and at that point, the threshold would be "money you can give your kids to buy to stuff for themselves at the store, and not much more".

Slow boil, works great on populations.

unmole• 4 years ago

It is the same reason why India's government is also trying to ban cash (with very negative results for the economy).

The Indian government is not trying to ban cash. Demonetization replaced old currency notes with new ones and the total cash in circulation increased after demonetization played out.

In India, only the salaried class fully pays their taxes. Businesses which deal in cash don't and anything that makes tax evasion difficult is a Good Thing⟨™⟩.

rwmj• 4 years ago

If they're already doing something illegal (avoiding tax, buying drugs or whatever), surely they'll ignore this law on cash transactions as well?

lordgrenville2• 4 years ago

No, people should pay taxes that they owe. Allowing people to hide income as a form of progressive taxation is inefficient and unjust. This kind of framing of everything as class war is such a terrible way to discuss policy.

I acknowledge that there are valid privacy grounds to oppose the move to cashless/less-cash. I just don't accept the argument that it should be easier for middle-class plumbers to not declare their income.

oleganza• 4 years ago

You understand that "taxes you owe" are defined as an optimization function (Laffer curve), not some kind of moral imperative? By the very definition of the process you cannot possibly "owe" these taxes.

inglor• 4 years ago

Israeli here - large cash transactions have already been banned for a few years mostly successfully - this just lowers the limit from ±$5000 to ±$2000

idan• 4 years ago

This is totally unaligned with my experience.

Yes, the wealthy can afford to find ways to cheat on everything. But all segments of society are dodging taxes.

As a middle-class salaried employee, your income is taxed down to the last decimal place. But if you work in the trades, or anything else where many transactions are handled in cash, then tax evasion is _rampant_. And you know who is usually party to that? The tradespeople AND the relatively wealthier folks giving them envelopes of cash in exchange for a "discount" because the transaction isn't reported.

Will those stop? Probably not. But at least in larger sums it should make people afraid of dodging their tax burden.

tpoacher• 4 years ago

The main reason for this is taxes

The reason doesn't really matter. What matters is that it's happening.

anonymous344• 4 years ago

It's almost like we would need a global rise from the consumers (99,9%) against the bank moguls & wef. If we only knew who these ~1000 people were..

knowaveragejoe6• 4 years ago

Been seeing WEF pop up all over the place in contrarian, mainly right circles lately - what's the deal with that? It was traditionally a bogeyman of the more left-leaning global conspiracies in the 90s and 2000s

cbg02• 4 years ago

Conspiracies are like fads, they come and go.

ajvs2• 4 years ago

Their promotional materials with sinister messages like "you'll own nothing and be happy", "great reset" discussed in Klaus Schwab's book which puts the world under technocrat control, their young leaders tending to support their authoritarian policies, etc. make them a disturbingly powerful antagonistic organisation to be aware of.

eyelidlessness3• 4 years ago

Another exception applies to PA Arabs, although according to attorney Uri Goldman, this situation will be rectified by the end of 2022.

To be absolutely clear here, “PA Arabs” refers to those governed by the Palestinian Authority… as agreed to by Israel, so excluding the Gaza Strip… and “rectified” refers to subjecting anyone under that agreed authority to Israeli law rather than any agreement with any party. “Rectified” here means effectively acknowledging that PA governance is effectively squat. Which it has been for some time, but the other consequence is that there’s no denying Israel is a colonial occupier of Palestinian territories.

ars6• 4 years ago

The law applies to the Israeli not the PA Arab.

no denying Israel is a colonial occupier of Palestinian territories.

You are seriously messed up. How can a native to the land also be a colonizer?

kennywinker3• 4 years ago

the area of ancient Israel was predominantly Jewish until the Jewish–Roman wars of 66–136 CE. During the wars, the Roman Empire expelled most of the Jews from the area and formed the Roman province of Syria Palaestina
1948, when the Jewish State of Israel was proclaimed in part of the ancient land of Israel. This was made possible by the Zionist movement and its promotion of mass Jewish immigration.

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_and_Judais...)

Colonization, constitutes large-scale population movements wherein migrants maintain strong links with their, or their ancestors', former country – by such links, gaining substantial privileges over other inhabitants of the territory.

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonization)

The history of Isreal is poorly summarized by these three quotes - but your "a native to the land" is a worse summary. A wrongful expulsion, or thousands of years away, doesn't give you a right to displace and oppress on your return.

eyelidlessness3• 4 years ago

The law applies to the Israeli not the PA Arab.

“Rectified” is the exact wording I quoted, they plan to apply the law to Palestinians under the PA authority.

How can a native to the land also be a colonizer?

By doing the actions colonizers do to other people native to the land. Imposing their national law on those explicitly not subject to it is pretty clear cut, without even considering the other Palestinians they exempt from clear cut designation under their law.

eftychis• 4 years ago

This is such a dark future (and present for some apparently).

ARandomerDude• 4 years ago

The theory is that this will stifle black market activity

Black market activity is already illegal. As usual, this kind of government overreach will only punish law abiding citizens for being law abiding citizens.

ayende2• 4 years ago

The idea is that you make holding a lot of cash much harder to work with on day to day life. That means the incentives for that are far lower.

It also complicate illegal activities in general.

The idea isn't that your typical criminal will say: "I'm okay with dealing drugs, but the law about 6K NIS is where I draw the line".

The idea is that once they get the money in cash, they have a problem actually using that. So they have to go into addition hurdles.

Basically, it makes illegal activities more expensive.

imgabe• 4 years ago

Criminals already have means of laundering their illicit cash. They can't just deposit it in their bank account anyway without accounting for how they got it. They have a front business that accepts small cash transactions (which would be under this limit anyway) so they can report it as legitimate income.

ls152• 4 years ago

So when there was a black market for banned goods, there now is a black market for banned goods AND banned money. No?

olliej2• 4 years ago

This took me a while to understand, this is targeting physical cash transactions - online transfers/payments were the norm for me growing up in NZ. The absurd difficulty of transferring money online in the US was incredibly frustrating when I first moved here, though not as absurd as when I discovered that in the US having someone's bank account# meant you can take money from their account.

ibejoeb• 4 years ago

in the US having someone's bank account# meant you can take money from their account.

The account number is written on every check. This is simply not the case.

olliej2• 4 years ago

Yes it is.

The way you do online payments in the US if not by credit card is by providing the recipient with your account number - they conveniently point to the parts of the cheque to copy - and then they withdraw money from that account.

Better yet when I was first trying to set up my online banking so that I could send money to my partner E*trade had me enter their account#, and then confirm the amount that they sent to it. Once I confirmed it they let me pull money out of her account at will. Because they were enforcing the can/cannot withdraw money for my partners account with another bank.

A lot of the reason for things like Venmo, etc existing in the US is because you can’t simply send money to a bank account. Everything assumes that having an account# means having something to withdraw money from.

graderjs6• 4 years ago

I don't want people monitoring or controlling what I spend stuff on. I love cash. I hate the idea of a restriction on that.

At the same time, if governments fail to efficiently tax their populations they end up having to go to war to plunder the resources they need to maintain their countries instead.

Probably another solution tho.

noduerme3• 4 years ago

yeah, I'm going with there's probably something in between plundering your own population and plundering your neighbor's.

choward• 4 years ago

At the same time, if governments fail to efficiently tax their populations they end up having to go to war to plunder the resources they need to maintain their countries instead.

This is a pretty bold assertion. Do you have an example of this happening? If a country has all the resources it needs then it's not going to have to plunder resources. If it doesn't have to the resources it needs it either has to trade for them, borrow, or plunder as a worst case scenario. It has absolutely nothing to do with taxes.

Also, with your logic, how do you afford an army to plunder resources if the reason for plundering is because they didn't "efficiently tax"? To go to war to plunder some resources, you need the resources. You can tax all you want but if you don't have the real resources you can't build an army.

Taxes can put resources you already have to work but it can't create them out of thin air.

graderjs6• 4 years ago

Take a read of [this book], it has plenty of examples throughout history (from ancient times to today).

From memory, most recent example is I think Japan in WWII, and maybe Germany in both wars tho I can't recall clearly right now.

The thesis is: expansionist tendencies arise because states fail to efficiently tax their populations so they seek wealth through plunder.

Good question about where the money comes from first, I can't remember what the book said now but I'm sure there's possible solutions. Maybe: seize from the rich people in your own country first (likely by demonizing them ~ I think China did this to elites during the cultural revolution from memory from [another book]); the leaders are savvy enough to go to war before all the funds are gone; bootstrap by using emotive demonization of enemy and fear (I guess the Nazis did this to Jews before and during WWII) so you can be scrappy at first until you plunder some wealth and use it to upgrade and purchase more soliders.

[that book]: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/9491855-why-the-west-rul...

[that other book]: https://www.bookdepository.com/Mao-The-Unknown-Story-Jon-Hal...?

teddyh• 4 years ago

Taler (https://taler.net/) claims to be a taxable but anonymous payment system.

graderjs6• 4 years ago

That's interesting.

aviramha• 4 years ago

as an Israeli, I really think this is a good thing. I hate the use of cash. I understand digital privacy and liberal concerns, but apart from the theoretical liberty taken, most non-criminals dont use cash and prefer digital payments.

jesterson• 4 years ago

I really think this is a good thing. I hate the use of cash

Noone forces you to use cash, isn't it?

apart from the theoretical liberty taken

why theoretical? It's a liberty taken.

most non-criminals dont use cash and prefer digital payments

Do you have evidence supporting this? I am not a criminal, but I have no intentions to share how my money are spent with actual criminals, who constitute government bodies.

leipert2• 4 years ago

Mildly related. A lot of countries have limits on physical cash transactions. Germany doesn’t. You can buy a mansion and pay for it in physical cash.

Apart from the tax implications, it is an effective way to launder money. Apparently organized crime really likes this and buys real estate en masse.

Double_a_923• 4 years ago

I still don't understand how those supposed money laundering plots work. E.g. if you buy a house with dirty money, wouldn't the tax agency still ask you why you suddenly own a house and how you could afford to buy it?

My tax agency already asks questions if my living costs seem too low...

bobthepanda2• 4 years ago

Well, table stakes are to obfuscate you. A nesting doll of shell companies buys the house on your behalf that you live in.

In a lot of cases tax agencies also lack the means or authority to verify the cleanliness of money obtained abroad.

leipert2• 4 years ago

They pay taxes on it. This is why the state “doesn’t care”.

As far as I recall, when you buy a house, the notary is supposed to check where the money is coming from, but this can be more of a handwavey thing.

This is a slightly older article, I am on the go and didn’t find anything more in depth in English: https://m.dw.com/en/german-real-estate-market-a-hotbed-of-mo...

wolongong9422• 4 years ago

In NZ or Aus the house would be taken under civil forfeiture, with you having to show a legit paper trail for the money to get your asset back. I think they're making it so you don't even have to be associated with any crime, and nothing has to be proven beyond reasonable doubt because it's civil.

logifail2• 4 years ago

The European Central Bank decided to discontinue issuing the €500 note back in 2019[0], "due to concerns of widespread use for illegal purposes"[1].

It wouldn't surprise me if other central banks/governments were to take this approach in a future crackdown on cash, step by step getting rid of the largest denomination.

It would get pretty hard to use cash for large payments if there weren't any large banknotes available.

(Full disclosure: the largest cash payment I've ever made was in fact made in those very €500 notes, pre-2019...)

[0] https://www.ecb.europa.eu/euro/banknotes/html/index.en.html [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/500_euro_note

wsc9813• 4 years ago

The Bank of International Settlements (BIS) wants to have full control of everyone’s money in the future [0]. This is not possible with cash, but with CBDCs it’s possible to exercise full control.

———

[0] https://m.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=10&v=9FM4Fu2ujDE

sjaak2• 4 years ago

If you want to deposit an EUR 200 banknote at some banks in my country the bank will charge you EUR 5.

Per note.

redox9911• 4 years ago

How is that even legal?

barry-cotter2• 4 years ago

Is that a Euro using country?

patates2• 4 years ago

I made a significant payment recently with cash and the only bills the bank would give me were 50€ bills. It was very annoying. A few bills in my wallet vs me having constant fear of dropping a ball of money from my pockets.

logifail2• 4 years ago

I made a significant payment recently with cash and the only bills the bank would give me were 50€ bills

All the ATMs I've used (across Europe) recently have at least offered me a choice of bills (notes) when I make a withdrawal.

I took €300 out of a cash machine in Italy yesterday, didn't specify the bills, and got it all in €20s... left me thinking the machine must have had lots of them and wanted to shift some :)

jillesvangurp• 4 years ago

There are not a lot of normal people using suitcases full of cash as a way to conduct business anymore. Probably the largest transactions relate to things like used cars and similarly large second hand purchases where both parties might prefer to keep the transaction off the books. Otherwise, most people would consider handling large cash transactions as a risky thing to do. And with modern payment solutions, you don't have to. Unless of course you are intent on keeping things off the books.

Unfortunately, I live in Germany where cash is still king. When possible, I use Google Pay. It's just easier. But there are still a lot of cash only places here. All the fun places basically. To get cash, I have to find an ATM affiliated with my bank (Deutsche Bank, one of inept and hopelessly customer hostile local banks) and there are only a few of those in Berlin and none close to where I live. The fees if I go to the wrong bank are pretty substantial. And then they inevitably give me 50 and 100 euro notes. Especially the latter are really a pain in the ass because shops and restaurants hate having to deal with those because it means they lose all their remaining change, which they need for other customers.

Digital currencies get a lot of bad press (and rightly so) but a lot of banks and national banks are starting to adopt blockchains as a way to keep their ledgers. Ledgers are the core thing a bank does and blockchains are basically very good ledgers. So, there's nothing strange about that from a technical point of view. IMHO, we are heading to a cashless future where all transactions go via blockchains. Cash is obsolete basically.

not_a_sw_dork2• 4 years ago

Ever heard of CashGroup?

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK4• 4 years ago

> blockchains are basically very good ledgers

"Blockchain" means very different things for different people. Blockchains such as Bit--in blockchain are very bad ledgers. The only thing they are good for is if you want to get rid of trusted intermediaries such as banks.

beagle33• 4 years ago

Unfortunately, I live in Germany where cash is still king

No, that's actually very fortunate for you, and likely a result of the collective memory among the (previously) eastern German population about the meaning and abuse by government of tracking every little thing you do.

Government abuse of all-knowing and all-controlling abilities is a question of "when, what and who", not a question of "if".

Cash is like a standing army. You don't want to ever have to use one, but if you don't even have one you can use, you'll lose the next war that breaks, which historically has been a question of "when", not "if". So every country - including Switzerland who hasn't been part of a war in centuries - maintains a capable army.

You wouldn't dismantle your army just for convenience. Don't stop using cash.

godmode2019• 4 years ago

New Zealand is making it illegal to buy Gold with cash.

This is not about paying taxes its a global move to make sure the banking systems are well funded, and runs on the bank are pointless during periods of high inflation.

Cash is problematic, how is the banking system meant to increase money supply if everyone holds physical cash.

DocTomoe2• 4 years ago

No, no more buying used cars from private citizens. Got you.

Sure, you could do this by the bank, wait for a few days, then constantly wonder if it arrived, and/or if the car seller is scamming you, while the (honest) car seller wonders the same thing, facing a third potential buyer who brings cash. Or you can just, you know, become a criminal and decide to ignore that particular law.

krab• 4 years ago

I actually prefer to buy and sell used cars with wire transfer. Within EU, they're usually instantaneous within a country and overnight internationally. I don't have to worry about carrying larger amount of money - when I was purchasing my first motorcycle, it was literally almost everything I had at the time. If something goes wrong and I got scammed, the money can be tracked a little bit better than with cash.

EDIT: And in this case, there seems to be an exception specifically for cars.

em500• 4 years ago

Or you could implement a system like in our country where national wire transfers arrive in seconds without any fees.

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK4• 4 years ago

I recently sent a US national wire transfer (known as ACH) from my bank account to my account in another bank. Took two weeks.

tzs• 4 years ago

No, no more buying used cars from private citizens. Got you.

There is no change when it comes to buying cars. The limit before this change was NIS 50000 for payments between private individuals. That limit is dropping to NIS 15000, but there is an exception keeping it at NIS 50000 for car purchases.

notme1234• 4 years ago

There was an exiting legislation for 11K, so this new legislation only reduced the sum to 6K. Not sure how this law is going to be enforced (as many of the laws in Israel are not strictly enforced).

codedokode• 4 years ago

It seems like governments around the world want to push people to keep their money in the bank. But this is an awful idea: first, in this case the government can track all your spending (even if the law doesn't allow that, they can ask the bank informally). Second, the government can always limit how much you can spend or withdraw.

For example, if there is a financial crisis, the government can limit how much you can withdraw from your account. Those with cash might be able to buy currency or precious metals, but those who trust the bank will be screwed.

But to be honest cash is not much better. For example, the government can introduce a cash reform, and also set limits for exchanging old currency to new one.

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK4• 4 years ago

That's exactly why Bit--in was invented. Electronic money, kept outside of gov control.

jaza• 4 years ago

A government with little enough concern for its citizens, and enough tech savviness, can effectively ban cryptocurrency too. Case in point: China.

alkonaut• 4 years ago

Same in many countries where it’s just too inconvenient even if it’s legal. For example in Sweden some Ukrainian refugees who fled without their documents can’t open bank accounts so now can’t be paid despite having worked since may. It’s just not possible for an employer to pay employees any other way than directly trough a bank account. Which is good in most cases (less tax evasion and money laundering) but it gets silly in some edge cases. This (not being able to pass out a check or a few $100 bills every month) must sound absolutely insane to Americans.

N19PEDL2• 4 years ago

In Italy the current limit for cash transactions is €2k, but it will be lowered to €1k starting from 2023. [0]

(Just for reference, NIS 6k is roughly equal to €1.7k)

[0] (Italian) https://bancadiasti.it/senza-categoria/utilizzo-dei-contanti...

cantrevealname• 4 years ago

Around NIS 5 billion have already been collected in fines since the restrictions were voted into law. In 2022 alone, around 6,000 audits have been conducted so far, with 2,189 law-breakers identified, representing a sum of NIS 35 million in illicit transactions.

That figure of NIS 5 billion, or US $1.45 billion[1], must be error because it suggests they are fining people $95K when caught doing a $5K cash transaction[2]. It seems very extreme, enough to bankrupt many people and businesses; it can't be right.

[1] The exchange rate for the NIS (New Israeli Shekel) to US dollars is about NIS 3.44 = US $1.00.

[2] Extrapolating backwards, if 2,189 law-breakers did NIS 35 million in illicit transactions so far this year, then in the last 3.5 years since the law came into effect, 15,323 law-breakers did NIS 245 million in illicit transactions, for an average transaction size of NIS 15,989 or US $4,647. So each law-breaker received an average fine of NIS 326,306 (NIS 5 billion divided by 15,323), or US $94,856, which is 20 times greater that the illicit transaction itself.

Lapsa• 4 years ago

death sentence punishment for using money

orko3310• 4 years ago

another + is that they can track much better what and when people buy stuff.

Cash is at least kind of anonymous

bjourne• 4 years ago

Arutz Sheva/Israel National News is an extremist right-wing rag. A more extreme version of Daily Mail or Fox News. While the claims it makes may be true, they may as well be completely false or severely distorted. If the story hasn't been reported in reliable Israeli press (Haaretz, Times of Israel, ynetnews) INN may be misrepresenting it.

From August 1: Cash transactions above NIS 6k illegal

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