Sitting and standing at work (2015)

http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/CUESitStand.html

by yamrzou • 4 years ago

151 130 4 years ago

ergo.human.cornell.edu

vavooom• 4 years ago

“The bottom line: Sit to do computer work. Sit using a height-adjustable, downward titling keyboard tray for the best work posture, then every 20 minutes stand for 8 minutes AND MOVE for 2 minutes. “

Pretty sensible that movement is key to solution. Long on-camera remote meetings always bug me and I tend to take a few minutes to walk around or pace if I can go camera off.

ozim• 4 years ago

So standing desks are snake oil of our times.

beebmam• 4 years ago

But sit-stand desks are not.

InvaderFizz• 4 years ago

They do wonders for me. Any chair I sit in mostly upright for more than a few minutes will start to cause me pain in my lower back. (Herniated L4-L5)

Alternatively, a standing desk where I have tons of movement and am constantly moving my feet and legs, I can stand at all day long. I'm sure it's distracting when I'm on camera, I'm constantly swaying from side to side.

bgribble• 4 years ago

I've been a full-time developer since about 1993. I switched to 100% standing at work in 2014 sort of on a whim. Before that, I had a significant episode of back pain (enough to leave me unable to function normally) about once a year. Since then, never once.

I'm sure it's complicated and I know correlation is not causality. But my personal belief is that standing is a huge benefit for my back's health as a programmer.

pessimizer• 4 years ago

Less the snake oil of our times than a trendy fad from 10 years ago that managed to accumulate a few fanatics, and consequently get a few furniture businesses and research scientists funded who would supply steady press releases to a lazy media that tired of it after a few years.

jstx12• 4 years ago

Not really, you're just trading off one set of problems for another if you work in one position all the time. Given that most modern standing desks are adjustable, it's pretty convenient to have more options.

tzs• 4 years ago

More a reflection of people having trouble with nonbinary thinking.

Research shows that sitting all day is not good...and many people take that as meaning they should not sit at all. They think their only choices are sitting all day or standing all day.

You can see a similar thing with diets. Someone reads that lowering carbs might have some benefits so they try to change their diet from one that has 60% of its calories from carbs to one that has 10% or less. In reality they are likely to get many of the low carb benefits if they cut from 60% to 30-40%, and 40% is a heck of a lot easier to do than 10% (and so also something one is more likely to stick with long term and so actually have a chance to see benefits).

Look at discussions here on HN about climate change, health and safety regulation, crime prevention, privacy regulation, transgender issues, and no doubt many others and you'll find a lot of people overlooking the possibility that anything other than the most extreme opposite approaches might be viable.

bckr3• 4 years ago

Thank you for this beautifully lucid comment, tzs. It would be valuable to pin this to the top of every thread.

62951413• 4 years ago

A dozen years ago when people started using them I thought those were rather odd fellows. Fast forward to the point where after 20+ years of coding lower back pain is quite common unless I work at a standing desk a lot.

baal80spam• 4 years ago

I wonder how does age affect these recommendations, if at all. The older I am, the more (or less?) should I stand? Does it even matter?

least• 4 years ago

My main takeaway from ergonomics is that it's not so much that there is a purely better way about doing things, but that you need to change things up and do it somewhat frequently. You can have two different parts of your body that want the exact opposite thing.

For example, arm rests can be beneficial in helping someone with carpal tunnel issues, but at the same time, it can be detrimental to the ulnar nerve. Standing and sitting both have their own upsides and downsides. Your actions are probably more akin to rotating the tires on your car. It doesn't stop the wear from happening, but it does so more evenly and you'll get more mileage out of them by doing so.

cosmotic2• 4 years ago

What does downward tilting mean?

yakak• 4 years ago

I think it means the top row is at a lower height than the spacebar, i.e. your arms are angled downward?

galleywest200• 4 years ago

I assume something like this https://i.imgur.com/wiNgg41_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&...

jefftk3• 4 years ago

That is definitely not good wrist posture, FYI. You want your wrist to be straight when typing.

abledon• 4 years ago

so glad research like this is getting traction, some workplaces I was at, there was a stigma for programmers who kept leaving their desks to move around (PDD or Panopticon Driven Development)

quickthrower2• 4 years ago

When moving around, hold a notepad and pen and look angry/determined as if busy dealing with something that requires going to someone else’s desk.

roflc0ptic• 4 years ago

Product that would be really useful here is a sit stand desk that you can schedule: there’s just no way I’m realistically gonna context switch every 20 and 10 minutes to adjust my desk height; if it just happened and I had to intervene to stop it, I’d probably let it happen

potatochup• 4 years ago

The last sit-stand desk I had at work used LIN to talk between the interface and the motor. We built a little injection board to program this in for us. If you don't mind hacking the interface, it would be easier to solder something directly onto the microswitches and control that from an Arduino or whatever.

s0rce4• 4 years ago

Isn't the proposal not to move your desk but to just get up and walk around? They specifically say simply standing isn't sufficient and the ergonomics of the standing desk isn't good anyways.

ambrose2• 4 years ago

I stand for meetings, that’s a forcing function that prompts me to switch.

pengaru3• 4 years ago

I prefer sitting on the floor, it keeps me repositioning regularly.

Except my current laptop, an X230, has the power coming out the rear. It physically presses the plug against with the floor when I have it tilted back partially resting on my shins/ankles while sitting cross-legged. The X61s was way better in this regard with its side mounted power jack. I should probably just upgrade to an AMD X13 already.

dayvid2• 4 years ago

Do you get neck issues, though? Looking down at a laptop isn't a great position for your head. I usually use a laptop stand to keep my eye level with the screen.

Also, having a laptop spend hours directly on your lap may not be good for your reproductive organs. Not sure on this one, though.

pengaru3• 4 years ago

No neck issues AFAIK, it's not like I stay in one position for too long.

The configuration I end up using the most is with the laptop sitting flat on the floor, one foot resting planted next to the laptop, chin resting on that leg's knee. That side's arm snakes under that knee toward the keys. The other leg is tucked in like cross-legged, other arm's elbow barely touching that leg's calf, straight to the keys. This setup puts my chest against the thigh of the upright leg with the chin on it. It's a super relaxed configuration, and I'll just alternate which knee is up vs. tucked in periodically.

geowwy• 4 years ago

It's not a problem. Just put your laptop on a coffee table or similar.

This setup works quite well with a wireless keyboard that has a built-in trackpad. The keyboard can move between the table, the floor, your lap, etc.

civilized• 4 years ago

I guess that settles it - the Pomodoro is the correct work pattern. It's the only one that works in these breaks every half hour.

jefftk3• 4 years ago

Their main argument against sit-stand desks is that people don't actually stand much: "In our field studies of sit-stand workstations we have found little evidence of dramatic widespread benefits and users only stand for very short-periods (15 minutes or less total per day). Other studies have found that the use of sit-stand stations rapidly declines so that after 1 month a majority of people are sitting all the time, so compliance can be problematic."

While that's a consideration if the question is "should we install these desks everywhere", if you already use a sit-stand desk and know you spend substantial time in both positions (as I do) that's not a reason to switch to full-time sitting.

feral2• 4 years ago

Not entirely the same, but since the pandemic and WFH, I've started doing a lot of my 1:1s while walking, voice only. I'd be really interested to know if anyone else has started doing this?

Typically, both people walk, using good Bluetooth headphones.

I was finding the combination of staring at the screen while coding, and then also during meetings, to be very straining.

Something about having to focus intently on the screen during a 1:1 was particularly tiring. Maybe because it's socially rude to look away while the other person is talking, so you end up really staring at the screen?

Now, instead, during a walking meeting, I exercise and get to look into the distance.

The most surprising thing for me was the ability to have technical conversations like this. I expected we'd really suffer without a whiteboard. Sometimes this is true, but I find we can have a lot of very technical conversations with voice only, and actually it's often easier than with video chat - because with voice only, I can focus more on the technical issues being discussed.

Finally, there are some days where I have a couple of hours walking meetings scattered throughout the day, and this is a lot of extra movement, which has to be good.

I wish there were more employers experimenting with different communication modalities like this; I feel the pandemic for all it's costs, has shown there are some great opportunities for other ways of working which have been underexplored.

FrojoS• 4 years ago

Same here. Back to the 80s! I was born in the mid 80s but I once heard that the economy of the 80s was basically “people talking to other people on the phone.”

coding1232• 4 years ago

Not myself but our tech VP does this all the time.

It's kinda funny when he runs into neighbors or sees a weird reptile (he's in Florida)

Swizec• 4 years ago

I'd be really interested to know if anyone else has started doing this?

We used to do this at the office and it was great. For private meetings between 2 people, go for a walk!

It has worked great for mastermind calls also.

But now at a new job that’s fully wfh it somehow didn’t stick. I tried a few times but I’m asked to participate too actively and people get frustrated with background noise because they aren’t using headphones at home. Laptop speakers are just not high quality enough to make it work even with voice isolation.

Plus I have too many back-to-backs nowadays and walking outside creates too much overhead. Kept missing things.

SoftTalker2• 4 years ago

I did the "walking 1:1 meetings" at a former job. Hated it. Useless for any topic where you might want to take or refer to notes, or other reference material, which IMO is basically a given for any meeting worth having.

13of40• 4 years ago

I actually do this quite a bit, and I've found that getting a kit of USB-C-chargeable devices (phone, headset, and laptop) plus a battery pack and an effectively unlimited tethered 5G data plan means I can work from anywhere I please. The down side of it is I find myself in these epic places staring down three hours of back-to-back meetings when I just want to lean back and look at a tree.

doktorhladnjak• 4 years ago

I've tried this a few times with another coworker. I don't know. It just didn't quite work for either of us. The connection didn't seem as stable. There's more noise even if neither of us was walking in a particularly noisy place. Voice only without video changes the dynamic. It's not possible to write down notes or look something up relevant to the conversation.

When we're in the same physical location, we do walking 1:1s and they work great. I'm not quite sure what exactly is different about them over Zoom or the phone.

bobthepanda• 4 years ago

Probably body language. We are able to subconsciously read and give many clues, which helps fill in for the other missing stuff.

neilv2• 4 years ago

I'm a big believer in walking, but not been doing meetings that way. It's great that works for you, and I'll just mention some thoughts for other people to consider as they experiment with it.

My current startup hasn't had good luck with WHF and cross-site meetings using smartphones when someone is outdoors. Even just within the US, when someone is on their smartphone, MS Teams (mandated) or their network connectivity means their audio often gets choppy, they don't seem to be as engaged, etc. It's not as reliable audio as, say, a landline conference call from decades ago.

I think the missing whiteboard or shared screen would also be a problem in practice for me. The last 1:1 that I was in, Fri, for example, I did an impromptu screenshare of a visual that was important to what we were discussing, and that's very common.

Also, in that same example meeting, I took notes, and then afterwards updated a few Jira Tasks based the new information. My memory is fine, and I probably didn't need the notes that time, but I don't always know at the start of a meeting whether I'll need to take notes, nor how big the notes will be, nor whether the notes will be useful, nor whether it'll be worth spending time after distilling useful info into Jira/docs/comms, or just (I do this sometimes) copy&pasting the semi-useful raw notes directly into a Jira comment and moving on.

SoftTalker2• 4 years ago

Sort of. I just use a still photo of myself rather than live video. Nothing is really gained by the other party seing my lips move. I don't have to worry about whether I've shaved, or my hair is mussed up, or if I'm dressed in work attire, or if I'm looking at the screen. It's much easier to focus on the content of the call without all those distractions.

rubidium• 4 years ago

“ Nothing is really gained by the other party seing my lips move.“ Eh, maybe for you. Hard of hearing folks and more extroverted folks will disagree. Depends on your team.

j452• 4 years ago

I do something similar and log into most meetings from multiple devices for meeting flexibility (and stability).

1) Laptop undocked / docked to monitors. For watching, screen share and often webcam. Sometimes take screenshots and notes if needed.

2) I tried an iPad Mini 5 after a recommendation and don't know how I lived without one for calls.

- It has become my primary meeting communication device.

- It provides most stable Zoom/Teams experience I've ever had - and the load doesn't impact my work machine.

- This device is all about maximising weight and size/volume. Small enough to carry, throw it in a sling for a walk and be able to pull it out if needed. great to carry a meeting or a call with me and be more useful than a phone.. Going for a walk, stretching out your legs, visiting the kitchen, and yes, sometimes even transferring the call to your car for audio while driving is smooth and generally seamless.

- I more easily see things on the meeting, interact, run a whiteboard, and contribute at a moment's notice if needed. Don't have to explain that I'm dialling by phone in or why. Being able to kick over to a whiteboard to doodle is handy compared to a powerpoint to get ideas across anyways.

- In Person - I almost always take the mini to meetings. The mini is not as distracting as a laptop keyboard or typing on a phone. Easy to bring up something to share and hand it over too.

- Great battery life, everything stays fast and doesn't need rebooting.

- I have muted nearly every notification on the iPad and it makes it even better to only work for me and not fight for my attention.

- Bluetooth works great, and the speaker/microphones are very decent.

Bluetooth Headphones:

- One tricky part of bluetooth headsets is noise cancelling might only be for what you hear, but te other party doesn't get noise cancelling from your mic and hear all your background.

- Currently I mostly use two pairs of Jabra 85t's that I alternate and charge since they only last 5h each. Only caveat of these is you can't use both the right earbud independently and not the left. Very decent noise cancelling for outdoors and indoors. I avoided the AirPods or others because I wasn't sure how good their noise cancelling was for the speaker (me) on a call.

- My interest is in that noise cancel on the mic for the other party. I'd love to hear what's working for you as there seem to be too many to keep up with. Heard good thigns about the Jabra 75e as well primarily for meetings and voice.

DangitBobby• 4 years ago

A big drawback to this of course is that it's very difficult to take notes or jot something down while walking around.

moomoo112• 4 years ago

How do you take notes or otherwise record key points or concerns when you’re walking? Or are you physically close to your computer?

I’ve had managers who would do stuff like this, not in front of a computer. As you might imagine the experience working with them was not great and led me to change managers because they’d never recall what we talked about because they were distracted.

rustybelt• 4 years ago

I can’t take detailed notes but will punch key ideas and follow ups into my phone.

bob1029• 4 years ago

I have a board in my office and my kitchen, so as I am pacing around on calls I will periodically walk over to the nearest board to scribble a note.

At the end of each day I will convert my whiteboard notes into GitHub issues.

Every day begins with a blank board.

It took me a really long time to get into this habit, but I never forget anything now. Relying on others to take notes for you is a huge mistake.

urthor• 4 years ago

"The West Wing"

slyall• 4 years ago

I'll raise you Brazil:

https://youtu.be/LFlFIG22Y9E?t=139

nonrandomstring2• 4 years ago

since the pandemic and WFH, I've started doing a lot of my 1:1s while walking, voice only. I'd be really interested to know if anyone else has started doing this?

Yes, +1 for this.

The pandemic made me unfit and put on weight. When I teach I pace about, gesticulate, use the whiteboard lots and generally burn a ton of calories. I really missed that. Desk-based admin or videoconf meetings are down my can-do list now. Trying to reserve chair time for coding.

I see other comments on "how do you take notes or send messages?" Mobile speech-to-text and text-to-speech are on my radar, but far from perfect results. I enjoyed the thread last week on throat mics and bone conduction headphones, possibly very useful tech to use for walking and working.

kubik369• 4 years ago

Maybe this will help you (and maybe I will just sound like a jerk shrugs), but the pandemic didn't make you unfit and put on weight, you and your diet did. I have been struggling with this for the last few years and while pacing about (or any movement really) certainly helps, you can veeery easily outeat whatever you burned; our bodies are freakishly efficient. I would recommend trying to take a look at whether your diet changed while working from home and if not, trying to change it up so that it corresponds to your current activity levels.

... or if you don't care, then don't, it would have just helped me if someone pointed this out to me earlier in my life, so I try to do it for other people.

s0rce4• 4 years ago

I did this often for some meetings, mostly just to discuss problems where we didn't need to take notes. Double purpose was taking the dog for a walk as well as myself.

besus• 4 years ago

Two companies ago I had a wonderful koi pond outside the office around which my 1:1 and I would walk around and enjoy the tranquility. It was great and I very much miss it.

ehnto• 4 years ago

There's a performance that's happening during a meeting with cameras that I find really draining and unnatural. I go into high alert for how I am presenting on camera. As the number of participants increases it gets worse.

wintermutestwin• 4 years ago

I spent 17 years as a WFH product manager and, by far, my most performant meeting mode was on audio only conferences where I could free roam around my large house. Walking really makes a difference in my ability to think and communicate through complex problems.

The shift to video and its static position was a huge backslide in my ability to do my job well.

baxuz2• 4 years ago

Just to put it out there, there is no such thing as good Bluetooth headphones. The audio quality is horrible due to the protocol, and earbuds just make the problem even worse.

oblio• 4 years ago

Bluetooth LE?

morjom• 4 years ago

There's plenty good sounding Bluetooth headphones though.

throwawaycuriou2• 4 years ago

The greater issue for this use case is latency. Bluetooth + cellular delay is not a kind thing to impose on your teammates.

cehrlich• 4 years ago

I take basically all calls and remote meetings while walking when possible (ie I don't need to refer to stuff on the computer). Sometimes it's outside, others I'm just pacing back and forth in my apartment. I find my performance is much better this way, and also I just feel better.

I've taken this so far now that I bought a lavalier mic + wind guard to use with my phone, so that others don't have to suffer the audio quality of the AirPods mic. If I need to take notes, I type them into the iPhone Notes app. Transferring them to the 'source of truth' on the computer (Workflowy for me, probably Notion etc for many others) also has the benefit of reviewing everything.

throwawaycuriou2• 4 years ago

If you do this, please use a cabled headset. Bluetooth headsets inevitably add latency, particularly off WiFi. Latency makes meetings more fatiguing.

soco• 4 years ago

I also try this (and was always doing it) but often others would complain about extra ambient noises - steps, wind, whatnot. So I can't do it as often as I'd like...

padolsey• 4 years ago

WFH is wonderful because you can go from sitting in lotus to standing with a gentle sway to lying down to barefoot yoga all without raising any eyebrows. Eg. I love lying on my belly with a pillow propping up my chest and my laptop in front of me. No way to reasonably do that at 99% of offices.

convolvatron2• 4 years ago

I used to do that quite a bit, but I developed thoracic outlet syndrome (nerve compression) and some other odd shoulder problems.

now I have a gantry with a monitor that slides over my bed and can lie on my back with a kinesis keyboard at lap level and go for hours without any discomfort.

rochak• 4 years ago

Can you share more about this setup? I’d like to build something similar.

roflyear3• 4 years ago

That's great! But I never understood how people can be productive on a laptop. I feel like having such a small screen reduces your productivity drastically. I would be very unproductive on a laptop.

dayvid2• 4 years ago

The ultimate state is Wolfram walking around in the woods with a laptop harness: https://writings.stephenwolfram.com/2019/02/seeking-the-prod...

bee_rider3• 4 years ago

Seems like a bit of bulky setup.

Kinda hoping in the next decade or so we'll get good enough augmented reality that we'll be able to walk around in the woods with a floating terminal. Maybe a chorded keyer for input.

JadeNB• 4 years ago

Kinda hoping in the next decade or so we'll get good enough augmented reality that we'll be able to walk around in the woods with a floating terminal. Maybe a chorded keyer for input.

Wolfram has also had that hope, according to the linked article:

I’d actually been thinking about walking and working for a long time. Twenty years ago I imagined doing it with an augmented reality display and a one-handed (chorded) keyboard. But the technology didn’t arrive, and I wasn’t even sure the ergonomics would work out (would it make me motion sick, for example?).

AlphaWeaver• 4 years ago

I've tried one of these, and it's difficult to type and walk at the same time. I love walking, sometimes walking for multiple hours on the weekends, but I wasn't able to make the "walking workstation" work.

s0rce4• 4 years ago

Or Steve Mann. Seems like Meta reality labs wants us all to live in that future.

merrvk• 4 years ago

I barely stand still for more than a few minutes when using a standing desk. Especially on long calls, I will move about far more than when sitting. Though after reading this, I’m asking myself should I be sitting more?

scrapcode• 4 years ago

Has anyone had any luck with a long range headset or Bluetooth extenders?

SilkRoadie• 4 years ago

Anecdotally, I have had a sit-stand desk for 6 months. I sit for tasks which require typing and stand for the majority of calls I participate in. I average about 2 hours of calls a day.

Before getting the desk I would get stiff in the day from over-sitting. Since getting the desk that is been corrected. When standing I find I am more expressive in calls and feel I fidget less while listening. I should note I sometimes catch myself with the desk at a weird height and I have taken on a gollum pose crouched on my chair.

I think I would agree that the level of computing work is slightly impaired while standing. I am not sure the reasoning. I feel my posture is good and it is comfortable to do. Perhaps cognitively this is not a task I have enough practice doing while standing.

loloquwowndueo• 4 years ago

+1 on standing for meetings/calls. I’ve found it helps me be more alert and pay more attention, and the change of posture prevents getting sore from sitting on my ass all day.

bckr3• 4 years ago

and the change of posture prevents getting sore from sitting on my ass all day.

The change of posture prevents my ass from getting sore from sitting on it all day.

seer• 4 years ago

Hah have had a standing desk that you can sit and code on too for ~ 6 years. I think I’m the other way around, I prefer standing for coding, as I can concentrate and forget which position my body is actually in. But meetings are just sooo much less bandwidth of information that I get bored easily. Standing for them just feels silly to me, so I either walk around or sit somewhere comfortable like a couch / sofa / balcony and enjoy drinking some tea.

analog31• 4 years ago

I switch to standing when my back and neck hurt, and switch back to sitting when my feet hurt. The standing desk isn't a continuous necessity, but an outlet for occasional periods of back and neck pain.

neilv2• 4 years ago

Standing alone isn't as good as movement, but I do all my meetings that way.

When you're on cam, people can tell by movement that you're not sitting, but so far I'm not aware that's a downside.

For standing with laptop, when I had a proper desk, I'd use an egg crate-style container (with felt protector glued on) atop it, and be able to switch stand/sit within seconds.

Now I use my laptop atop a height-adjustable "lectern" on casters, and wheel it around to wherever I want to be, for light, etc. When not standing, I just carry laptop to a comfortable chair or other place I want to slouch with bad posture. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B079MH6BCL/

stakkur• 4 years ago

I have a sit/stand adjustable desk. Here's what I do:

1. Stand for first ~1 hour of the day.

2. Depending on how I feel, alternate sitting/standing about every hour or so until lunch.

3. After lunchtime, stand for ~30-60 minutes.

4. Repeat step 2 until end of day.

I also walk for ~30 minutes/day in the mid-morning. When I return from that, I sit.

I also take eye breaks and try to use a pomodoro method (25 min working, 5 min. looking away/etc).

The key to feeling good seems to be variety, as the article implies. I can't ever go back to a sitting-only desk arrangement.

jstx12• 4 years ago

Since I'm using one desk for work and personal use, I stand during working hours and sit down the rest of the time. There's something psychologically satisfying about splitting it that way.

dang• 4 years ago

Cornell Ergonomics Web finds standing desks present their own issues - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2995194 - Sept 2011 (108 comments)

coding1232• 4 years ago

Been WFH for many years. I typically can't sit for more than 2 hours. I need to get around and stretch, even lie down on the bed so my back feels better.

j452• 4 years ago

I've had standing desk for a while and still no routine. I just alternate pretty regularly for what feels good.

If I'm feeling a little restless, I stand. If I'm a little tired, I sit.

There are some great, thin $3-400 treadmills that are light that can be used for walking as well for those interested.

gavmor• 4 years ago

Any modern conversation of workplace ergonomics is incomplete without mention of biomechanist Katy Bowman, whose "Move Your DNA"[0] is an indispensable read for anyone maintaining a physical body.

As best I can interpret it, her ultimate conclusion is to hold no position for too long, and introduce novel movement into every activity (rather than, specifically, relegating "healthy" movement to an "exercise" period, while otherwise indulging in "unhealthy" movement for large blocks of time).

Combined with further research elsewhere — such as studies cited in Annie Murphy Paul's "Extended Mind"[1] and those on alleviating ADHD symptoms through movement[2] — it's possible that the ideal workplace is an unrecognizably dynamic one where even the most cerebral workers spring from treadmill to trampoline, to napping cot, to promenade. For just a taste of such dynamicity, here's a fast-forwarded hour of Katy Bowman fidgeting her way through the workday.[3]

Edit: I want to address something specific in the linked article. The claim that "Standing puts greater strain on the circulatory system and on the legs and feet."

I am absolutely certain that this is true, but it doesn't diminish the value of a standing desk. One principle I've absorbed from Bowman's writing is that all rest is strain, which is to say that to rest one limb one must rest on another, straining it. (Who hasn't woken up with a "crick in the neck" or another sign of slept-on strain?) The trick, then, is to rotate strain throughout all the various limbs of the body. Not only have all our limbs have evolved to handle certain loads, they've evolved to expect and dare-I-say crave certain loads in order to keep functioning. So, yes, "standing puts greater strain on the circulatory system and on the legs and feet," but a degree of strain is essentially therapeutic.

0. https://www.nutritiousmovement.com/product/move-your-dna-res...

1. https://anniemurphypaul.com/books/the-extended-mind/

2. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-athletes-way/201...

3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEpEAdCWnw8

rubicon332• 4 years ago

If you find it difficult to stand for long period of time (as I did, after purchasing a standing desk) then I implore you to consider getting an under desk treadmill. I went from spending 15-30 minutes a DAY standing, to 4+ hours walking.

Doesn't that make it hard to type, you ask? Well, the posted article does mention this:

Treadmill, bicycle and elliptical workstations have been tested and typically shown to decrease computer work performance (typing and mousing slows down and significantly more mistakes are made).

But personally, I got used to it quickly and found that my performance on the computer did not decrease at all for programming related tasks, where ultra fine mouse movements are not necessary. If I were trying to play Call of Duty or something, then surely I would not walk.

The one time where I do find sitting to be ideal is when I really need to focus very intently on a task. For example, if it's an entirely new problem domain where I need to read a lot and focus at my maximum attention, then I need to be seated quietly, in a dim room, for a long period of time.

theonething2• 4 years ago

Would you mind sharing which treadmill you use/recommend?

rubicon332• 4 years ago

https://www.treadly.co/

This is what I use. But, I would encourage you to do some quick searching on Amazon. There are some much cheaper options that may do all you need. Technically the treadly treadmill is for working out / running. It's HUGE attractive feature for me was that I could store it under my bed when company comes over and I need the office to look tidy.

Also worth mentioning that I have the treadly model 1 (they're on v2.0) and I've had to send it in twice for repair. It's now out of warranty, and if it fails again I will be screwed. Hence why I've done a quick Amazon search myself and seen that indeed there are some interesting options since my purchase a few years ago.

askvictor2• 4 years ago

I found that a balance board works relatively well; keeps you moving a bit.

bckr3• 4 years ago

I tried that out but found it very distracting.

d33k4y• 4 years ago

I should be dead by now. (I'm not dead yet!)

altvali• 4 years ago

I doubt I can be productive at programming if I have to be interrupted every 20, 8 and 2 minutes to adjust my stance. Every time I tried that I failed. Should I keep trying?

roflyear3• 4 years ago

Hmmm. I think it depends. Personally I just drink so much water I have to pee like every 30m. I think during this time I should take an extra five minutes and stand up!

tomjakubowski• 4 years ago

how much water are you drinking to have to pee every 30m?

alliao2• 4 years ago

yeah your Nephrologist might have something to say about that...

s0rce4• 4 years ago

I just try to listen to my body. Are there times when I'm focused and productive for a couple hours, sure, but if not and there are opportunities to get up then I take them. I don't try and make it a hard and fast rule. I'll also try to go for a walk at lunch if I didn't ride my bike to the office that day.

comrh• 4 years ago

I haven't been able to programming standing but having all zoom meetings standing has been doable.

hellodanylo• 4 years ago

I have been working on an iOS/MacOS app that reminds me to stand up and/or take breaks at certain intervals. It's using the iPhone's camera and local computer vision to collect ground truth.

Drop me an email at "hello at danylo dot me", if you would like to beta test with me. Or watch an informal demo here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvzHrwjU9TU

jazzabeanie• 4 years ago

I would love something like this that also checked if you were mouth breathing and gave you a reminder to breath through the nose.

autoexec• 4 years ago

I have been working on an iOS/MacOS app that reminds me to stand up and/or take breaks at certain intervals.

I just put an hourglass on my desk, but out of reach. Sand runs out, get up to flip it. One nice feature is that it makes no noise so if I'm in a meeting and can't get up or attend to it, it isn't disrupting anything or interrupting anyone. Getting into the habit of looking up at it from time to time is also good for the eyes.

adfjalkfja• 4 years ago

WFH I get up and move around a lot more often. In the office I'd just feel like a distraction, glued to the chair with a guilty feeling

askvictor2• 4 years ago

Others have proposed a treadmill workstation or a bicycle workstation or an elliptical workstation or a _hamster wheel_ workstation

Hamster Wheel workstation? This sounds compelling...

slategruen• 4 years ago

Anyone else here prefer sitting on the floor instead? It's a common practice here in Asia. Maybe it's just me but I experience less frequent back pain when sitting on a floor compared to sitting on a chair. One reason I posit is I shift my body more frequently when sitting on the floor. A chair (even an ergonomic one) seem to encourage you to stay in one position for a long time.

bluGill• 4 years ago

I often sit cross legged on my chair. Wears my chair out faster, but I prefer it. I can't find a desk that will go lower enough to sit on the floor. I.also stand at times, but I can't do it long.

gumby• 4 years ago

then every 20 minutes stand for 8 minutes AND MOVE for 2 minutes.

Ah, I see you don’t have hour long zoom calls.

I attend most zoom calls muted with video off, in part so I can stand and walk around / do some lunges, and in part so I can zone out when the inevitable blowhards get the mike. Honestly this also helps when someone does have an interesting screen share.

But I have been told “video off” is passive aggressive so I don’t know how much longer I can pull this off.

geggo98• 4 years ago

But I have been told “video off” is passive aggressive so I don’t know how much longer I can pull this off.

“Video off” is often necessary, because your laptop runs low on battery, or has run too hot. Sometimes your Wi-Fi might just be bad, forcing you to audio only. A colleague of mine could not turn on video while the Anti virus was running, or the PC would get overloaded (hint: it was running all the time, as mandated by the security guidelines).

You might also not feel well with being watched because of personal reasons. And since it’s personal, it would not be the other person’s business.

If you are at home, video might interfere with other people’s privacy. Just think about the neighbor sunbathing while visible from your window. Don’t want to risk streaming things to work that are not safe for work.

frereubu• 4 years ago

A physio I went to see about some neck / shoulder issues said that the reason standing desks are good is that they make you move, not that they make you stand per se. He took part in a study where he had to stand completely still for as long as possible and it was very painful after a short time. The value in standing desks is therefore that they make people move - if you stand really still it's not going to help. When using my standing desk I find myself doing things like the lower part of the yoga tree pose, moving in time to music that I'm listening to, and so on. I have a height-adjustable desks and manage about half a day of standing, then sit down in the afternoon. That works really well for me.

virtualritz• 4 years ago

What posture does ‘sitting’ entail? I read somewhere the least pressure on your spine is when your torso/legs are at 135°. I can confirm this from personal experience.

I spent the entire pandemic, i.e. almost two years, working from home from a chaiselongue that a friend of mine produces [1].

I only ever used it for reading books or watching movies via my projector before that.

It turned out it is perfect for doing computer work. The angle of legs to torso is between 130–140° on this piece of furniture.

I never had any fatigue in my spine, pressure points on my body or pain from tensed muscles anywhere. We're talking up to 12 hours/day on this with two 1h breaks in-between for lunch and dinner.

I always used my laptop but now I am building a setup with a wall-mounted arm to hold a screen and keyboard, below, that I can fold away.

I will post here once I have it set up.

[1] https://www.saschaulber.com/shop/coffy/ – it's currently unavailable because of post-pandemic related supply chain problems

Havoc• 4 years ago

I can definitely stand a full day but it is exhausting. 60% stand 40% sit seems good to me

z9znz• 4 years ago

After 12 years of mostly standing for work (software development), the part of this article I sadly can agree with is the wrist/carpal tunnel issue.

I'm probably on the extreme end of "standers", as I routinely stand for 12+ hours at my computer. If my partner is not around, I'll not only stand for the full work day but also the entire evening. There may be days where the only time I sit is in the bathroom...

Only recently, as I allowed a bad diet and lack of exercise to become a problem, have I found myself less able to stand as much.

But the real issue is the forearms, wrists, and hands. I believe it should be possible to arrange my desktop in a way that gives me the same ergonomics as sitting (with respect to arms), but so far I haven't got it quite right.

Probably the right answer is just to cut my time at the computer in half and spend the other half of my time out being active :).

cdavid• 4 years ago

A similar setup more or less saved my PhD 15 years ago. I got RSI to the point that it was debilitating: any arm movement that required bending my arm would be painful (shaving, brushing tooth, etc.). I considered stopping my PhD.

What likely saved me was using workrave on my linux workstation: this is a software that forces you to take 30 sec break every 10 mins, and 5 (or 10 ?) mins every hour. It does so by disabling the keyboard (there is an escape hatch ofc). The hourly break, I would stand and walk.

I've been working as a SWE since then. Last few years, I started typing less (moved to management), but I am now > 40 and can still use keyboard w/o much trouble.

It is very easy to try workrave, so I would recommend people taking a look.

Ensorceled• 4 years ago

Standing isn't a panacea for health issues caused by too much sitting, movement is. I found my overall health and well being improved greatly when I stopped trying to use my standing desk and instead made sure to go for a walk first thing before starting work and paying heed to my Apple watch when it says get up and move around.

alliao2• 4 years ago

I really want to try out a desk cycle, looks dorky AF any down sides to hip wear etc?

specialist• 4 years ago

Made my first standing desk ~1998. Just a used door and 2x4s.

I've always just used barstools. You also need a rubber mat. Especially if the floor is concrete. Or really good shoes or work boots.

I lost about 30lbs. After about 3 months, I was able to stand for any length of time, without discomfort.

The social benefits were great too. Quick meetings, huddles, mood checks. Or my team would pull up barstools and use my desk as a shared workspace as needed. Probably the outcome those agile proponents were shooting for with their "standup meetings" stuff.

Eventually, about 1/2 my team also got standing desks. Then other teams joined the movement.

Adjustable desks seem like overkill to me. And per this article, the novelty quickly wears off. Use the money to buy more, better monitors instead.

Sitting and standing at work (2015)

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